The Seed of the Sacred Fig director Mohammad Rasoulof on being 'sacrificed because of censorship'

21:33Mohammad Rasoulof: Risking everything for his new film The Seed of the Sacred Fig

The ficus religiosa is a species of fig tree that spreads its seeds onto other trees, eventually strangling them and growing a new one in their place. It's a metaphor that Iranian filmmaker Mohammad Rasoulof uses in his latest film, The Seed of the Sacred Fig, to symbolize the theocratic regime in Iran.

Rasoulof was previously arrested, sentenced and imprisoned in Iran for making films that authorities found to be "propaganda against the system."

The Seed of the Sacred Fig follows an honest family man named Iman who's appointed as an investigating judge in the Revolutionary Court in Tehran. He soon learns that his real assignment is to approve death sentences without any investigation.

Not only does the job make Iman feel panicked and paranoid, but it also puts him at odds with his two teenaged daughters who are watching their friends protest during the Women, Life, Freedom movement (the real-life protests following the 2022 death of Mahsa Amini).

Rasoulof joins Q's Tom Power alongside his translator Iante Roach to talk about how the idea for the film was inspired by his experience in prison, what it was like secretly shooting The Seed of the Sacred Fig in Iran, and why its critical success has been bittersweet.

The transcript below has been edited for clarity. Listen to the full interview on our podcast, Q with Tom Power.

Tom Power: Thank you both for being here.

Mohammad Rasoulof: You're welcome. Thank you so much.

Tom Power: I'll start by saying I know you've been traveling an awful lot with this film. How have the reactions been in the theatres when you've been showing it?

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: Yes, I too was very curious to see what the different reactions in different countries would be. And as you know, I've been traveling, accompanying the film far and wide, and watching it across cultures has been fascinating. The thing that has caught my attention the most is how a very local and specific story that has to do with humanity, with human rights, but also with the fight for dignity and self-respect can speak so powerfully to global audiences.

Tom Power: How was the Kyiv screening?

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: So I think the screening in Kyiv, but more generally my experience there, was one of the most complex, because every night I could hear the sounds of Iranian-made drones in the skies of Kyiv. So I had to constantly explain to people that there's not necessarily any relationship between the politics pursued by the Islamic Republic and the demands of its people. Nonetheless, the screening went very well and I explained this again, and all was good.

Tom Power: I think we need to talk a little bit about how this film was made because it's an absolutely fascinating story. So my understanding is you came up with the idea for this film when you were serving one of your many prison sentences for speaking out against the Iranian government. Tell us where you were, what you remember, about when the idea for the film came to you.

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: Yes. I was in prison in 2022 when the Woman, Life, Freedom movement began, and trying to follow what was happening out on the streets from inside the prison was really rather unique — an interesting experience in its own right.

And, you know, for many years, I'd been thinking, reflecting, on what enables people to collaborate with the regime, to place themselves inside that regime and to ignore their own role in repressing the people. And then I had, whilst in prison, a chance encounter with a senior prison officer who told me how he'd come to hate himself, how he was even thinking of taking his own life, and how fiercely his children criticized him, asking him how he could bring himself to work with a regime that sent people to death, in fact. And at that point, I thought it would be very interesting to tell a story about a family in which such a big rift has come to be. And at the same time, this would also be a good context to pursue this question that had stayed with me for so many years about those who collaborate with the regime.

Tom Power: I guess what I'm curious about is why that is something that you're interested in? And with all respect — how do I put this now — when you are imprisoned, I wouldn't blame you for having intense anger towards absolutely everybody involved … but the film does have that understanding in it. And I'm wondering why that question was on your mind? That question of complicity, and what kind of people would be complicit in this?

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: I was very curious. For instance, when I was being interrogated — whilst I was blindfolded and placed straight against the wall, with my interrogator asking me questions from behind — what I was thinking was: why am I here and he is there? Why can he not think like me? Why can I not think like him? So it was an honest psychological investigation, research, and likewise that extends also to other officials in the system, really trying to understand how could they just not see? How can they simply ignore their own responsibility in the repression mechanism?

Tom Power: So tell me about how you wrote the main character, with that question on your mind.

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: Yes. So when I was being tried in court once, I remember watching the judge who was investigating me, in fact, in court. But I couldn't quite hear his voice because I was thinking quite loudly, "Look, he's a human being. He has all these human facets. He's just offered me some water, and yet there he is condemning me and investigating me this way." So, really, what is interesting is how decisive a system is in guiding people in their actions, in the sense that someone who has such human facets could be doing really good work if the system guided him that way. And then, for instance, once when we were in prison, we got this news that a high prosecutor in the Iranian courts got to a point in his life where he could no longer get on with the work. They were extracting all these false confessions at the time. And so he retired or he left his job. And that was really big news for us — look, it's possible. Like, people can make these decisions. And so I thought it was very important not to neglect this aspect in my film, not only to show that those people are not monsters, but also to show what a complex system they are drowning in, which really drowns them.

And then, of course, I knew that it was these same people who are sentencing people to death and giving out all sorts of other criminal sentences, in the sense that the sentences themselves are criminal. And yet, they're also human beings. So how do these two sides meet? Where does the humanity interact with the criminality, if you like? And then I realized that the underlying issue was what in prison we call sar sepordeghee. It means handing your head over to someone else who will think for you, but also make decisions for you which you will follow. And so we could translate it to submission to power or ideology. So it's that submission to power or ideology that engenders fanaticism, and then it's the fanaticism that engenders violence. So they've got this human side, but they also have this very violent and criminal side. And that is the trajectory that I wanted to show in the character of Iman and throughout the film.

Tom Power: I want to talk a little bit about how this film got made. My understanding is you weren't able to be present for the filming. I wonder if you could talk about why that was and then how you achieved that?

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: Well, I really need to thank technology that enabled me to see what was happening on set in live time, control the image, and direct my cast and crew through two assistants, one of whom was in charge of liaising with the more technical side and the other one with the actors and the more artistic side. So it's the miracle of cinema today, thanks to technology, but also thanks to a cast and crew who were totally united in wanting to make a film, and in wanting to make it far away from the restrictions imposed by censorship.

Tom Power: How was it possible for your cast and crew, then, to be shooting this film even though you weren't there on the streets of Tehran, without them getting caught as well?

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: I've been making underground films for 15 years, so I've learned how to do it quite well. You could say that's our job. And the way we work is similar to that of gangsters, although, of course, we create cultural products.

Tom Power: My understanding was there was a plan B script. Is that right?

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: We were absolutely convinced that we had to start the film, but we also had to finish the film. Finishing the film is key. And so in order to do so, we established a set of rules to follow: namely, to have a very limited cast and crew, to use very light equipment, and that I should be mostly absent from set, not to attract undue attention. But likewise, we also had a plan in place if a stranger turned up on set — because obviously a stranger could also be a plainclothes policeman, the traffic wardens, whoever — whereby the cast and crew would immediately switch to filming a fake screenplay that would not attract suspicions.

Tom Power: Even though the film was finished, the story doesn't stop there. In April 2024, it's announced that your film was going to premiere at the Cannes Film Festival, which was just a few weeks later. Tell us the story of what happens when that becomes public.

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: Well, initially, as soon as the news of the Cannes premiere came out, a whole deal of pressure was exerted on everyone who was still inside Iran. So, for instance, the DOP's office was raided, everyone was banned from working, banned from leaving the country, interrogated multiple times. But then systems like the Islamic Republic excel in creating problems for themselves. So they can't control everything. At the moment, we are all being investigated on three charges — meaning every single person involved in making the film — namely, spreading corruption and prostitution on earth, propaganda against the Islamic Republic, and attempts against national security. Myself and the other collaborators currently outside of Iran will be judged in absentia, those inside Iran in presence. So we're waiting to hear the date and the outcome of this court case.

Tom Power: Tell me about your decision to leave and how you felt when that was something you had to do.

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: You know, it's a decision that was long in the making. But at the same time, I had to take in practical terms just in a few minutes, as those things that you've been thinking about for a long time but somehow manage to hesitate, you manage to procrastinate. As you may know, I was banned from leaving Iran since the last time I returned there in 2017 until now, until 2024. So for seven years, during which I worked under a great deal of duress, of fear, of stress. And then in 2022, when I was back behind bars, I thought a lot. I reflected a lot upon what it means to be a filmmaker in prison. And the fact is that you're turned into a victim, sacrificed because of censorship. But you actually can't get your films done. And at the same time, whilst I was in prison, I was being investigated on other charges.

And then, of course, because of the Woman, Life, Freedom movement, there were lots of arrests and the prisons swelled up. In fact, there was not enough space left for all the new protesters who'd been arrested and given prison sentences. So the regime was forced to grant general pardon to a number of political prisoners, and I happened to be one of them. So I came out of prison, started shooting The Seed of the Sacred Fig, and four weeks into the shoot received an eight-year prison sentence. Then, of course, managing to keep my wits together and my concentration in order to control the image, shoot the scene and so on was incredibly difficult. But somehow I managed to pull it off, and the post-production had already begun outside of the country by the time that I received the definite sentence after having appealed against that, by which time I could no longer do anything; you just have to comply with it. And so here I was, over a very short space of time, forced to make a decision. I didn't want to accept the role of the victim that going to prison would turn me into. And so I decided to leave the country.

I reflected a lot upon what it means to be a filmmaker in prison. And the fact is that you're turned into a victim, sacrificed because of censorship.- Mohammad Rasoulof

Tom Power: I'm not going to ask you to go into the details of your 28-day journey of escaping Iran and seeking exile in Germany, but I do want to know what kept you going during the journey?

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: What really kept me going from the very first instance, despite my deep attachments to geographical Iran, was the fact that I really wanted to keep working.

Tom Power: You know, I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate you coming in and telling this story from the very beginning of when you came up with the idea, and the tremendous cost to making this film. Now that it's done, now that people are going to be able to see it, what are your hopes for it?

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: You know, it's interesting because you give up so much, you put so much into something, and yet you may accomplish that one aim, but other dreams of yours go up in smoke. And I hope for those people who choose to watch this film that their ears and eyes will open to see a local story that nonetheless pursues human international questions and themes and issues.

This was about a family, about their inner workings, the dynamics, the relationships between the different people of this family, but I don't think it's only about an Iranian family.

Tom Power: I want to thank you so much for coming in and taking the time with us today, to the both of you. Thank you so much for the beautiful film, I really loved watching it.

Mohammad Rasoulof [translated by Iante Roach]: Thank you so much for having me.

The full interview with Mohammad Rasoulof is available on our podcast, Q with Tom Power. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Interview with Mohammad Rasoulof produced by Catherine Stockhausen.