Fredericton shooter challenged under cross examination

With quick questions, Crown prosecutor Jill Knee challenged Matthew Raymond on whether he planned to shoot and kill four people.

Raymond is testifying in his own defence for the fourth day Monday, and spent the final hour of the day under cross examination.

He previously said he shot and killed constables Robb Costello and Sara Burns, and civilians Donnie Robichaud and Bobbie Lee Wright on Aug. 10, 2018 because he thought they were demons coming to kill him. He's pleaded not guilty for the shooting at 237 Brookside Drive, and his defence team is arguing he was not criminally responsible on account of a mental illness.

Knee stood at a podium Monday afternoon after Raymond answered defence questions for almost three full days. She asked him one question after the other, Raymond quickly answering with "yes" or "no," sometimes elaborating. 

She asked Raymond why he didn't bring up demons with psychiatrists until October of this year. Raymond said he still believed in demons and thought the court was under their control until the third time he was sent to the Restigouche Hospital Centre.

Raymond previously testified he thought he shot seven people. He in fact shot four, but multiple testimonies say Raymond did fire into a number of apartments in the complex. Knee asked how he could think people at the apartment complex were attacking him if "they were just standing there," some at windows in Building A and B.

Raymond said that day he thought everyone that moved was a demon.

"Anything that moved, I was shooting at. All of them were demons, it was the end times," he said. "I was threatened by the thumping on the door, the wall, the door, and the threat outside with the child."

Raymond previously said he heard a child say "come out and play, baby," after which he barricaded his door for four or five days before the shooting.

Knee also asked if Raymond had laid out newspapers and swim catalogues to leave a message. When police arrested Raymond after the shooting, he had newspapers with "hoax" and "serpent" written on them.

He also left a photo of a crow that landed on his bike, sitting under a magnifying glass. He left money laid out with "serpents" written on it, and a letter from his landlord that he had marked with calculations that resulted in "occult" numbers like 666.

Raymond said "well, yes" he did leave those things there to leave a message.

Knee said that message was intended for police. Raymond said it was for anyone who comes into his apartment, whether it was "Islamists" coming to kill him, demons or police.

When Knee said Raymond knew the people were humans, and not demons, Raymond said no.

Knee asked when he started shooting, did he know police would come? Raymond said "there was a chance" police would come, but he thought they were also demons.

Raymond told a psychiatrist who interviewed him in 2019 that he "regretted" the shooting.

"Of course I regretted it," Raymond said Monday. "I didn't want the end times to be happening ... I didn't want to actually have to take up an arm and shoot anyone."

Knee asked if regretting it means he knew what he was doing was wrong?

"Not at the time," he said.

Cross examination is expected to continue Tuesday.

No criminal history

His testimony was paused Thursday because his injection of anti-psychotic medication Wednesday was affecting his concentration.

On Monday, defence lawyer Nathan Gorham, who had emergency surgery Sunday because of an accident and wore an eye patch, led Raymond through videos of previous court proceedings and screen shots and videos saved on Raymond's computer. Most of the evidence was presented to the court previously, but not put to Raymond.

Raymond confirmed he'd never had run-ins with police, and that he had never been arrested nor charged for any crimes until Aug. 10.

Raymond testified about watching a YouTube conspiracy theorist who goes by the name Rob Lee.

Raymond said he taught him how to identify demons online.

"I learned from watching him, watching his videos. I believed it to be true," he said.

They corresponded by email, and Rob Lee asked him to send a list of people he thought were demons. After a few months of correspondence Raymond said the relationship soured and Rob Lee accused him of seeing demons everywhere and being crazy.

Raymond later determined the YouTuber was himself a demon and a "deceiver."

Last week Raymond described the weeks, days and hours leading up to when he shot the four people, as well as the shooting itself. He testified he barricaded himself in his apartment four or five days before the shooting, where he slept little and made bizarre calculations using the time on the clock.

Raymond testified he thought he was being targeted by demons, who were spying on him. He testified about seeing crows and deriving occult meaning from them, and finally believing the end times had come after he heard a child outside his window say "come out and play, baby."

Raymond said he opened fire after modifying his rifle to double the amount of bullets it can hold. He said he thought he was under attack by demons and was defending himself.

Monday marks the eighth week of his trial.

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