Change the rules or the culture? How to eradicate bad behaviour in the legislature

In the wake of the Cliff Graydon scandal, there's a debate over how to improve the climate in Manitoba politics: Change the rules or change the culture?

Liberal Leader Dougald Lamont on Thursday called for a hard stance against politicians accused of inappropriate behaviour. He wants to see their right to vote in the chamber and perform other duties be suspended or, in more extreme cases, see the members suspended without pay from the legislature.

"Those are real repercussions," he said, noting there is currently no way for an elected official to be removed or punished.

"I know [Premier] Brian Pallister has said we have to change the culture, but I believe it's not enough to change the culture, you've got to change the rules."

Lamont's comments come after a woman said she was groped and propositioned by Graydon, the Emerson MLA who was kicked out of the governing Progressive Conservative caucus last month and now sits as an independent.

However, at least one political expert isn't convinced big rule changes are the answer.

"It's good to start the dialogue on what our options are. All institutions within society are coping with the new reality that behaviour that was once ignored or accepted as normal is no longer acceptable," said Paul Thomas, professor emeritus of political studies at the University of Manitoba.

"But I don't think there's a nice, organizational, simple fix to this. These are matters of culture and I'd somewhat disagree with Mr. Lamont when he says we start with the rules.

"The rules can only take us so far, we can only write so many rules."

Thomas is pinning his hopes on a new generation bringing in a new culture.

"Ultimately, with young people coming into political life, hopefully they'll bring different values and approaches to dealing with one another so we won't have as many of these incidents as we're witnessing now," he said.

Until then, however, he does believe some of what Lamont is saying has merit. Changes to current procedures, in terms of transparency at least, would be a good thing.

"​The tradition of legislatures is that they deal with their behavioural issues internally, unless they're serious and require RCMP or police investigations and court proceedings," Thomas said. "Typically, the issues have been about a lack of decorum and disrespect for other members.

That doesn't satisfy outside observers that due process has been given to victims of unwanted sexual advances or inappropriate language, he says.

"So here has to be more transparency and objectivity," Thomas said.

Ultimately, with young people coming into political life, hopefully they'll bring different values and approaches to dealing with one another so we won't have as many of these incidents as we're witnessing now.- Paul Thomas

"Mr. Pallister has claimed that his party has the most advanced procedures for dealing with these sorts of incidents, including the establishment of safe channels where people can come forward and voice their concerns. But we don't know very much about those procedures.

"So, either the parties should regulate themselves in a more effective way, a more transparent way, or we'd have to rely on an outside entity like the conflict of interest commissioner."

Lamont would like to see the establishment of an independent ethics commissioner to whom complaints can be reported and then investigated.

"There's due process and then they can make a recommendation that, if the allegations are true, then that person can be suspended," he said, adding it shouldn't be up to politicians to police each other, especially those in their own party.

Whatever route those in the legislature choose to follow, it will require "a tricky balancing act,"  Thomas says.

"We want to be understanding, accepting of the version of events from the victim, but we also have to ensure that the person accused of misdeeds gets a fair hearing and we don't rush to judgment," he said.

"We're in new territory here and we don't know quite what range of behaviours we want to deal with and what the appropriate responses are. We haven't found the perfect fix yet."

CBC broke the news last month that Graydon had been accused of asking a female legislative staff member to sit on his lap during a recent meeting. A second staffer then came forward to CBC with a similar allegation.

He had also suggested another woman lick food off his face, according to a Winnipeg Free Press report.

Following that, the 72-year-old MLA held a news conference and said he was only guilty of having an outdated sense of humour. He insisted he was not a sexual harasser and had never been accused of that.

Graydon hasn't responded to subsequent accusations of groping and propositioning.