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The Current Transcript for December 11, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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DONALD TRUMP: I said you have to close up your borders because they're coming in the northern border to a lot, not like the southern border, but they're coming in the Canadian border a lot.

MATT GALLOWAY: It is the world's longest undefended border, although that undefended part could soon be under threat. Donald Trump wants this country to get a better handle on who and what is crossing from Canada into the United States, with a threat of big tariffs to back up that demand. In 30 minutes, three people whose work straddles that border and what they see when it comes to asylum seekers, drugs and interactions with neighbours on the other side and what a more secure border would mean for daily life and for how they think of that dividing line. Also this morning, our conversation with the Calgary writer Jessica Waite about grief and her memoir, The Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards, got you talking. Coming up, your mail on the complicated business of mourning in a society that avoids discussing death. Plus...

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VOICE: I'm sorry, this is just a column for the idiot in the white G.R. Hatch. All-wheel drive only works when you are connected to the ground. Get some snow tires, okay?

MATT GALLOWAY: As the snow flies, the repair shop would like to keep you on the straight and narrow and out of the ditch. In an hour, whether the rest of the country should follow Quebec's lead and make winter tires mandatory for the slippery season. But we begin with delayed deliveries, mounting frustration and another day with no mail. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

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Canada Post strike drags on

Guests: Megan Fahey, Myron Schultz, Barry Eidlin

MG: The Canada Post strike continues to drag on with no end in sight. Christmas is getting closer, and Canadians are frustrated and fed up.

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VOICE 2: When Canadians get mad, you know it's not a good thing. I understand that they're fighting for certain things, but I'm also pissed off because this should be an essential service, especially when this type of mail service is the one that's providing us with our government ID.

VOICE 3: I hope they come to an agreement soon because it's really affects, especially this time of year, where people are expecting things, they're ordering things online. They're more, less patient than ever.

VOICE 4: I need Canada Post and the government to come to an agreement right now. I've been waiting for my security deposit and pet deposit cheque, which is $3,000 for over a month now. I need my money.

MG: Tomorrow it will be four weeks since 55,000 postal workers walked off the job. Among those feeling the strike particularly hard: Small businesses and rural communities. Dan Driediger fits both of those bills. He owns a business called GoTrekkers in Missinepe, which is about 450 kilometres north of Saskatoon.

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DAN DRIEDIGER: I print maps twice a week. I drive into La Ronge, which is a 160 k round trip to ship out maps via Canada Post. And with this strike on, I can't do that. I'm in trouble. My business has dropped significantly since the strike came on by about 70 per cent.

MG: The Canadian Federation of Independent Business estimates that the strike has cost businesses in this country over $1 billion so far. Last month, as the strike got underway, we spoke with Megan Fahey. She's a small business owner in Saint John's, Newfoundland, sells greeting cards and relies on Canada Post to get her products to clients. We're checking back in with her this morning. Good morning.

MEGHAN FAHEY: Good morning.

MG: How are you doing a month into this?

MEGHAN FAHEY: I am surviving.

MG: Surviving. How are you surviving?

MEGHAN FAHEY: Well, basically, I am just, I've just accepted that my online business is not going to make it for this quarter. And I've been focusing a lot on the local markets.

MG: What does it mean? Your online business is not going to make it this quarter?

MEGHAN FAHEY: Well, I was looking at my numbers again, and I am losing one third of my online income. These last, this last month before Christmas.

MG: So, what do you do about that? I mean, practically, it's a big part of your income. How are you making ends meet?

MEGHAN FAHEY: Well, that income is just gone and I haven't been able to make it up. I've just been hustling and going out to local markets. I had a lot of local markets booked already, thankfully, because they fill up quickly. And I'm just hoping that the people are, there's a real push on right now to support local. I mean, we have local shops closing all over town, local restaurants closing. So, the message is out there to support local because you've got to love it or you lose it. And I'm just hoping people keep coming out.

MG: If you were, we talked about this before, but if you were to, to send your cards through something other than Canada Post, how much more would it cost you?

MEGHAN FAHEY: So much more. I mean, it only costs $1.40 to send a card to the U.S., which is actually my main, my main place that I send mail. I have more orders coming from the U.S. than from Canada or internationally. And to send mail to the U.S. without Canada Post, it's over $20. It's in the $30 range.

MG: What have you heard from customers while this has dragged on?

MEGHAN FAHEY: Customers have been pretty understanding. I did have a few people reach out to me who were waiting on orders that were shipped prior to the strike. And at first, they were asking for refunds for product that is sitting in a facility somewhere. And obviously, small businesses can't afford to take that hit and provide refunds for product that will eventually reach the customer when the strike is over. So, I've had to explain the situation and said, you know, if the card is no longer useful to you, you can certainly write 'Return to Sender' on it. And once it's back in my hands, I can offer a refund. But while the strike is going on, there's, my hands are tied.

MG: Your sense is most people understand the situation that you're in?

MEGHAN FAHEY: Yes. Yes. So, the few customers that I had who reached out asking for a refund were very understanding. So then I thought, better be proactive and email or message the rest of my antsy customers and just explain the situation to them, and...

MG: You run a small business. Part of this is about, I'm sure there's part of it's about making money, but it's a passion play too, right?

MEGHAN FAHEY: It, absolutely. Yes. Yeah.

MG: Has that been threatened? I mean, you know, you have a bit of that swan mentality where you're kind of cruising on top and beneath the surface, you're paddling furiously just to keep going.

MEGHAN FAHEY: Absolutely. I don't know if it's been threatened. It's definitely, it's just been hard. Know how else to say it. And you, you have to keep going.

MG: And what, what about I mean, feelings towards Canada Post and postal workers? I mean, you said before that you have kind of mixed feelings. You understand kind of where they're coming from. But at the same time, this is having a real pinch on you.

MEGHAN FAHEY: Yeah, it is what it is. I can't really, I can't really fault them for what they're fighting for. If I was in their position, I would probably be doing the same thing. Canada Post. I don't know what to say. It's, it's just. It's a hard spot.

MG: I can hear it in your voice. I wish you the best of luck. [MEGHAN FAHEY: Thank you.] I hope that you make it through to the other side of this. Megan, thank you very much.

MEGHAN FAHEY: Thank you.

MG: Megan Fahey is the owner of Driven to Ink. It's a small greeting card company in Saint John's, Newfoundland.

MG: Myron Schultz is another small business owner affected by the postal strike. He's in Winnipeg. Myron, good morning to you.

MYRON SCHULTZ: Good morning to you, Matt.

MG: What does your business sell, and how has that business been impacted by the postal strike?

MYRON SCHULTZ: Well, we're kind of a, an odd company in that we, we sell to different markets. Our, our main business that we do is manufacturing products from sheepskin. A lot of that goes into the janitorial industry in both in Canada and the United States, primarily in the U.S., actually. And then, we also do products that we call comfort items like slippers and mitts and coats and jackets. And, yes, that, some of that goes to distributors or retail stores in Canada. We have our own retail store and we also do online sales.

MG: And so with Canada Post out on strike, workers out on strike and parcels and products not moving, what has that meant for your business?

MYRON SCHULTZ: Well, the main thing for us is, sort of the two elements for us. One is with most of our account based in the U.S., they don't understand what a Canadian postal strike looks like or why it's happening. And we have thousands of cheques that are stuck in the postal system that we haven't received from our customers. We have about 700 distributors based in the U.S.

MG: And they pay you by cheque?

MYRON SCHULTZ: They pay us primarily by cheque. If you pay by credit card, but primarily it's by cheque transaction. So, we've got thousands of cheques that are now stuck in the U.S. postal system, or Canadian postal system, I should say. And now, the U.S. postal system is going to be accepting mail from our customers. So, they're very confused about it. And then on the other side, where we're shipping products within Canada, the big question is, well, are you using Canada Post? Because if you are, we're not going to get our products. So, we've some time ago had moved away from Canada Post for reasons that I'll be happy to share. But the problem now is that these other services are so backlogged. We've got products that are sitting in our warehouse for a week or more that aren't going anywhere because services don't have the capacity.

MG: Just quickly, why did you move away from Canada Post?

MYRON SCHULTZ: Well, one of the reasons was the cost. We, we found, oddly enough, that we could ship a package to a customer in Florida, for example, for the same or less than we could ship a package to somebody in Canora or even across the city in Winnipeg. And it suddenly became a little weird seeing that. So, we had to review that and find other sources of shipping. And it's made a huge difference for us.

MG: Have you run the math, you know, perhaps with your eyes half closed on what this is costing you?

MYRON SCHULTZ: Well, it's costing us at this point, it's costing us tens of thousands of dollars. Hundreds, well over 100 plus thousands of dollars in lost revenue that we're not taking in because these cheques are just lost.

MG: How can you bounce back from that? That's a lot of money.

MYRON SCHULTZ: How well, eventually, we figure either it will come in the mail or we started going to our customers and saying, 'Okay, we need to find another way for you to pay us. Either send us by courier service, which cost us money or by credit card, which cost us percentage points.' So, in some ways it's a grin and bear it approach to it, and there's not much we can do about it, obviously, other than, as you said, go hat in hand to our customers and say, 'Please pay us by another method.’

MG: What frustrates you the most about this?

MYRON SCHULTZ: Well, okay. What frustrates me when I, when I look at how much Canada Post has been losing all these years, and then I see that the postal workers are asking for more, I'm thinking, well, 'Where's this more going to come from?' It requires a far more comprehensive view of what Canada Post is going to be going down the road. Is it going to be competing with Amazons and, and all the other organizations or services that are delivering packages these days? Or does it pivot to something completely different? I mean, the p--, Purolator is part of their operation these days. So, I don't understand how they're even getting into this position right now. It doesn't make sense to me.

MG: Four weeks into this, just finally, what would you like to see from the federal government?

MYRON SCHULTZ: I think the federal government has to say, look, postal workers, we're in a pickle right now. We are not going to be able to pay you what you think you're worth at this particular moment. We need to review the entire operations of Canada Post, see where you all fit into this process. But if this carries on, Canada Post is just going to shut down because it's, I mean, who's going to use it? There are, there are alternatives out there. Who's going to use it if it's not even operating at this critical time of the year? It's, it's outrageous, really.

MG: Myron, it's good to talk to you. Best of luck to you in this difficult situation. Thanks so much for speaking with us.

MYRON SCHULTZ: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Myron Schultz is president and co-owner of Lambskin Specialties. He was in Winnipeg.

MG: Barry Eidlin is an associate professor of sociology at McGill University and expert in labour movements and policy. Barry, hello to you.

BARRY EIDLIN: Hi, Matt. Good to be back. Thanks for having me.

MG: Good to have you back on the program. So, we just heard from small business owners. You heard one of them say he wants the federal government to step in. The Labour Minister, Steve MacKinnon, has said repeatedly that he won't do that. From your perspective, why is it four weeks into this strike at a time when businesses are feeling the pinch and as we heard, maybe $1 billion thus far has been lost? Why isn't the government acting on this dispute in the same way that we saw it act with rail and port workers?

BARRY EIDLIN: I think the big issue here is that neither of the parties want it. When we talked to when we looked at the ports and we looked at the rail, it was the employers basically doing a coordinated campaign to lock out their workers and then, use the chaos caused by their lockout to provoke government intervention. In this case, you're hearing a lot from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. You're hearing a lot from other business groups calling for government intervention. You're not hearing it from Canada post-up. And, and I think that what's going on here is because I think Canada Post recognizes that the issues that they want to resolve are not things that they can necessarily get from an arbit, a binding arbitration situation, and they're going to have to fight for them, essentially.

MG: Let me come back to that. I mean, what's the bar, though, for government, for government to step in. If the people that the service supports and, and services are actually being hurt by labor disruption, and the point of a labour disruption is to create a pain point so that you are able [BARRY EIDLIN: Yup] to press the issue. But if people are feeling that pain point, what's the bar for the government to step in?

BARRY EIDLIN: Well, I think that the bar that we're seeing is whether the employers want it. So I think, you know, when the employers call for it and then, then the Labour Minister acts when they don't want it, they don't. I mean, I, you know, I don't have inside information [MG: Yeah], but that's certainly the message that's coming through from the situation because yes, I mean, you heard it from your previous guests, and you're hearing it all the time. I mean, I think, one thing that's important to point out here is that these stories are really putting the lie to the issue that, you know, the Postal Service is somehow not still a vital part of the Canadian economy. Right? I mean, I think people are [inaudible] about 'Nobody mails letters anymore.' But you see from the effects of this strike, the vital work that these postal workers do. Right? And, and the fact that their withdrawal of labour is having this effect shows the vital role that the Poster has continues to play in society and to the economy.

MG: When the federal government steps in with some disputes and not others, what sort of environment does that create when it comes to collective bargaining, do you think?

BARRY EIDLIN: That's, that's a fantastic question, Matt. And I think what we really need to understand here is that the situation that we're in is the consequence of overreliance on government intervention in labour disputes. We need to put this in a broader context that Canadian postal workers have not been able to negotiate an agreement that fundamentally addresses their basic issues of their lives at work for well over a decade now. And the reason for that is because the paths to bargaining or else they've been legislated back to work. And what happens when you legislate workers back to work is that you basically that you put an end to the immediate conflict, but you don't resolve the underlying issues. You just kick the can down the road and the problems continue to build, continue to build. And then so, and that's what we're seeing now that there's all these issues that have not been resolved. And then on the flipside of it, you also essentially condition the employer side to expect government intervention. It changes their calculus and makes them less likely to actually try to reach agreement at the table. Because even in these cases, because the government has now intervened so frequently in these other disputes, they, they see, okay, well, maybe they're saying no now, but you know, that maybe they're going to change their tune pretty soon. So, we can continue to hold out. Right? So, it really has this corrupting effect on the entire collective bargaining process.

MG: You said that neither side wants to be forced back to work in some ways. From the Canada Post perspective, I mean, this is a Crown Corporation that lost something like $748 million last year. The landscape that it's operating in, it's up against a raft of companies that will deliver your package on the weekend and deliver it a whole lot cheaper than if you were to use Canada Post, certainly from a labour perspective. What, where does that leave, you know, the existential crisis that the Canada Post in some ways faces itself with? I mean, yes, people rely on Canada Post and we're seeing that. But at the same time, they have other options. And the landscape is different than perhaps it was five, 10 years ago.

BARRY EIDLIN: Absolutely. I mean, there's no question that this is a time that we need to be rethinking the mission of the Postal Service. I think your previous guest was, was right on that. The question is, we need to ask not just what type of postal service want, but what is the future for work in Canada, right? Because basically what Canada Post is, and if we just say that Canada Post is a delivery company just like any other delivery company, then, then yeah, maybe you do need to follow Amazon on a race to the bottom. But if you think about Canada Post as a Crown Corporation that has a mission to serve all Canadians across all of Canada, that calls for a rethinking of what they do and, and the, and CUPW, the postal union, has put some proposals on the table to rethink the Postal Service with doing things like postal banking or senior check-ins or something like that, where you can use this unique feature of Canada Post, which has a nationwide network that reaches into every single Canadian. No other courier service does that, and use that for things other than delivering the mail. And so, I think that what we're seeing here is these two competing visions of what the Postal Service is going to be and also what kind of work, what kind of work is going to be like.

MG: Just, just finally on that. And we only have about a minute and a half left. Where does, where does the Canadian public fit into this? Four weeks into this, how much sympathy do you think an interest the Canadian, does the Canadian public have for rethinking that model at a time when the majority of Canadians aren't part of, of a unionized labour movement, but [BARRY EIDLIN: Yeah] also they are now reliant on or at the very least, have become, you know, accustomed to ordering something and having it delivered, you know, an hour later or the next day.

BARRY EIDLIN: Yeah. Well, I think we need to remember that, you know, labour movements, especially in Canada, have historically fought for much more than just our own members. And CUPW is really head and shoulders above many other unions when it comes to that. You know, so many Canadians now take for granted the fact they have paid parental leave. That came directly out of the 1981 CUPW strike, for example. And so when CUPW is taking a stand on things like two-tier workforce, which is what the Postal Service is trying to implement with the, with the weekend delivery, trying to get it delivered by part-time workers with different lower wages, lower benefits, less predictable schedules, they're taking a stand for job quality for all Canadians, right? And so we need to think about, you know, if we have an economy where the jobs on offer are these type of Amazon, you know, unpredictable, low-wage, low-benefit jobs, who's going to be buying the Etsy cards? Who's going to be buying the sheepskin products? You know, who's going to be sustaining the economy? Who's going to be able to make ends meet? We've been talking for years about the qual--, this crisis and the cost of living. If the jobs on offer are these types of part-time, no-benefit jobs, who's going to, how is that going to help Canadians make ends meet?

MG: Barry, really great to talk to you again. This is something that Canadians right across the country are paying, obviously very, very close attention to. Appreciate your perspective on this. Thank you.

BARRY EIDLIN: Happy to help. Thanks for having me again.

MG: Barry Eidlin is an associate professor at McGill University. We did get a statement from a spokesperson for the Minister of Labour, Steve MacKinnon, that says, 'Canada Post and CUPW need to reach a deal to put an end to their dispute. Canadians are counting on them. Negotiated agreements are always the best way forward.' [Music: Theme fading in] Your CBC News is next. And then, we head to the border and talk about what a changing border means for us through the perspective of people who live and work right on that border between Canada and the United States. We'll talk about that coming up in six minutes on The Current.

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Life in Canada-U.S. border towns under Trump

Guests: Dave Carlson, Denis Bouchard, Jody Stone

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Governor Justin Trudeau of the great state of Canada. U.S. President-elect Donald Trump gave the Prime Minister a new title in a social media post yesterday. A joke, perhaps, but it speaks to the evolving relationship between Canada and the United States and an evolving understanding of the border.

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DONALD TRUMP: I spoke with Justin Trudeau. In fact, he flew to Mar-a-Lago. Within about 15 seconds after the call and, I said, you have to close up your borders because they're coming in the northern border, too, a lot. Not like the southern border, but they're coming in the Canadian border a lot, and drugs are pouring in. Almost as importantly, drugs are pouring in, maybe more importantly.

MG: Securing the border. That is what Donald Trump wants, curb the flow of drugs and migrants or else, he'll slap a 25 per cent tariff on all Canadian goods. The federal government is promising to make changes. Here's the Deputy Prime minister, Chrystia Freeland.

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CHRYSTIA FREELAND We absolutely are working very, very hard to ensure our border is secure. It's an issue, first of all, for Canadians. And we think that today, we really need to be sure that Canadians have confidence that Canadians control our own border. Of course, it means we need to have the appropriate resources to do that. And we will.

MG: According to sources who spoke with Radio-Canada, those appropriate resources could be to the tune of $1 billion, all to secure the border. For people living in border communities across this country, a second Trump presidency comes with a great deal of uncertainty. Denis Bouchard lives in Hemmingford, Quebec on the border with New York at Roxham Road. He works with Bridges, not Borders, to support migrants crossing the border. Dave Carlson is the Reeve for the municipality of Emerson-Franklin in Manitoba, on the border with Minnesota and North Dakota. He's also a volunteer firefighter in his community. And Jody Stone is mayor of Stanstead, Quebec, on the border with Vermont. Good morning, everyone.

DAVE CARLSON: Good morning.

DENIS BOUCHARD: Good morning.

JODY STONE: Morning.

MG: Dave, let's start with you. Tell me a bit about, about the relationship that your community has with the border and how important Amazon's port of entry is.

DAVE CARLSON: It's extremely important. I mean, we've like, yeah, we're right on the border. We have friends and neighbours across the lines. A lot of people that are, there's integrated families. There's a lot of shopping, different things like that. Our municipality actually has mutual aid agreements for emergency services for two northern counties. So, we do assist each other, and when there's wildlife fires or any other kinds of emergencies. So, we have a pretty warm and cordial relationship.

MG: You're part of those emergency services. As I mentioned, you're a volunteer firefighter. So, you would see the migrant crisis that has alerted the attention of Donald Trump firsthand in Manitoba. What's that been like? What have you seen?

DAVE CARLSON: Well, it's, it's a little bit disturbing because what happens is when you have folks crossing, quite often, it's, it's in bad weather or, you know, it's at night. This is a little different from the last crisis because of the, the 14 days that it takes for you to be in the country to claim asylum. So, there's a little bit more desperation. They, they're evading and don't want to be intercepted. So, it makes it probably for a little bit more of a, you know, dangerous situation, especially, I mean, not only for the migrants but for our, our emergency services that have to potentially do search and rescues, etc. So, just kind of dangerous all around. And we're, we're really hoping that the, this tsunami isn't coming like we seem to think it is.

MG: Let's talk about that tsunami in a moment. But, I mean, there's that story from 2022 of the family from India that froze to death in a field near, near Emerson crossing into the United States. When, when you find people who are trying to cross the border, what sort of condition are they in?

DAVE CARLSON: Well, they're usually, I mean, sometimes they cross and it's fine. They report like, they used to report in. It used to be fine. They were dropped off somewhere close by. It was okay. But then, there's, there's, when there's human smuggling involved or any kind of trafficking, or they're just crossing on their own without understanding the terrain or where they're going, they're in kind of in a desperate situation. I would last year, like, let's see, last winter, there was some fellows that were found that were almost frozen to death. And so, that's, those are really bad situations. And when that family was crossing into the United States and perished like, that was, that was tragic. And it was very disturbing. And it just shows the level of desperation that, that we can see. And, you know, people get themselves into really bad situations. It's difficult terrain like it seemed, okay, it's just a prairie, but it's really not. I mean, there's, there's river and creek forests and things like that. And then if you're in. The wind's blowing and it's wintertime. You can have whiteout conditions and get lost pretty quick and, and disorientated. So, you put yourself really in harm's way.

MG: So, just the last point on this. We, as Canadians, will often take pride in this idea of the world's longest undefended border with the United States. The federal government, as we said, is promising more funding for helicopters and drones and, and sensors along the border. Do you think the nature of that border and how we think of that border needs to change based on what you've seen?

DAVE CARLSON: Yeah, it's, it's a different, it's a different world now. I mean, guys used to just cross in their snowmobile and go for a drink or something, you know? Like, that was kind of the old days. That's the way it was. You know, people just kind of crossing here and there and, and everyone kind of knew each other more or less. It's unfortunate that times have changed and no one wants to see this evolution. But at least until this crisis is, is over, I think it's, it's warranted. I mean, you have drug trafficking, you have human smuggling. Once the criminal element's involved in your border, you're going to need these kind of measures. So, I think they will be welcome. It's just unfortunate that it's come to this.

MG: Jody Stone, your community of Stanstead, shares a border with Derby Line, Vermont. How intertwined is your town with the town on the other side of that border?

JODY STONE: You will, I'm a little bit with Dave. Families on both sides. You know, we have a street that borders, one side of the street is Canada, the other side is the U.S. We share water, sewer. We also, fire department crosses over and gives a hand on either side. So, we're very, very attached to, to our American neighbours.

MG: I mean, there was that story during the pandemic of the library, right? That straddles the border.

JODY STONE: Yeah. Yeah. The library has the entrance. The main entrance is on the American side. And so, there's an unwritten rule that, that Canadians can cross or can, can enter as long as they stay on the sidewalk and they can enter inside the library.

MG: So, how worried are people? I mean, these are the people who go back and forth and back and forth across the border, maybe many times a day. How worried are people that it could become more difficult to cross if that border becomes more secured?

JODY STONE: I haven't heard a big worry because we've, we've lived through 9/11. And 911 was very difficult time. We went from being pretty, pretty easygoing at the border to very strict. And it's been relaxed since. The border has been much easier and much more cordial when we went to go through. So, I can't see it being worse than 9... then, then after 9/11.

[cross-talk]

MG: What are you, what are you worried about in the second Trump presidency when it comes to the border?

JODY STONE: Well, I think it's fear, right? Trump, Trump is just saying a lot of stuff, trying to get his followers to, to think he's the, the second coming. I think, unfortunately, time will tell.

MG: Denis Bouchard, you live right on the border near Roxham Road, where, as we know, thousands of migrants would, would cross into Canada. Just quickly remind us why that crossing was closed in 2023.

DENIS BOUCHARD: Well, it was closed basically to give a show that politicians were doing something. We, we're in a very similar situation to what the three previous persons said. Basically, we share services with people across the border, but here we were with Roxham Road and in our backyard, literally, and thousands of people who were crossing. What, what's going to change with the new agreement is that instead of people crossing at Roxham, they're just going to move somewhere else, and they're going to be all over the border, in people's backyards, in people's forests.

MG: Are you are you seeing that already?

DENIS BOUCHARD: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Not yet in big numbers, but with what's happening on the other side of the border, we're afraid that it will increase. Because if, you know, supposedly 11 million people are going to start being chased around, then of course, they're going to try to find some place that's safe. And that is going to be probably a northern border.

MG: Where, where are people crossing now?

DENIS BOUCHARD: They're crossing all over the place. In wooded areas as much as possible, I guess, to be discreet. We don't see many people crossing, but we see stuff that they leave behind. You know, you'll find clothes that was dropped off or backpacks and other personal objects. And that's, that's when you see how vulnerable these people are. They were a little bit too, not too, too much of a burden on their shoulders or whatever. And they dropped it off in the forest and just decided to cross. So, we're also very worried with winter around the corner that it's going to be harder and harder on them.

MG: Have you seen the border change already? I was reading a story in the press this morning about a woman in your community who's lived there a long time. She was out for a hike. RCMP stopped her and asked her what she was doing, and why she was out walking. She said there's a climate of mistrust now because of a change in the border. Have you seen the area around the border change already?

DENIS BOUCHARD: Very much, yeah. The RCMP actually sent, gave a flier to some of our residents, telling them that if they see a stranger walking down the road, call them. And there was, one of our members was intercepted by the RCMP, she was just walking with two members of her family. There's also people from Mexico and Guatemala who work on an operation here not too far. And of course, they are regularly intercepted and questioned by the RCMP.

MG: What do you, what do you make of that?

DENIS BOUCHARD: Well, it's not really the kind of community that we want. We were used to a community that was very open. And now, we're suddenly, constantly stopped while we're walking peacefully.

MG: How fair do you think, let me just ask you this before I go back to Dave. But how fair do you think Donald Trump's concern is about north to south crossings? There, American officials say they intercepted something like 21,000 migrants who are crossing illegally from Canada into the United States in the first 10 months of this year. Do you think Trump is right to be concerned about that?

DENIS BOUCHARD: We don't really know. We've been taking care or helping or informing people, basically coming up into Canada. We don't know how many exactly are going the other way. We just see what's left behind by these people. But it's, it's not our problem to, to see about what's going into the States. You know, we're, we're concerned about what's coming into Canada.

MG: And the smugglers that might be helping people come into Canada.

DENIS BOUCHARD: That's the main, main thing that we're worried about. You know, our members have met hundreds of people who have crossed coming into Canada. These people are looking for safety, not confrontation. We're not at all afraid to have these people. We're not afraid of them. We're afraid for them with the conditions that are now along the border.

MG: Dave, you used the word tsunami earlier. Why did you use that word to talk about what you were anticipating or concerned about in future?

DAVE CARLSON: Well, in 2017, there is an awful lot of a lot of people crossing. And again, there's, there's going to be some desperation. This, the deportation plans and, that are going on is very strong. And the United States feels they have a problem. They had an election, and that's what they voted for. So, it looks like there's going to be the will to do deportations, and I guess what... So, we, we anticipate numbers, for sure. And I think it's just, it's just common sense. It's going to happen. We've already seen a little bit of it. And...

[cross-talk]

MG: You're saying, your sense is if, if Donald Trump moves on that plan to deport, what? Upwards of 11 million undocumented people, that people, those, some of those people will try to figure out how to get into Canada?

DAVE CARLSON: Well, I think so for sure. Typically, we're, we've been more welcoming. So, I mean, that may be the, that may be what happens. I think for us, the little bit the worry is, is that the, the first phase is supposed to take in, you know, people with criminal records, and gang, gang affiliations, things like that. So, if they're going to be the ones coming into crossing, you know, in the area of our community, I mean, that's definitely disconcerting. And it's, you worry for public safety, you worry, I worry for the safety of our emergency services and RCMP. You know, it's an unknown. And we're not sure how a migrant may react that is in that situation. And that is, you know, potentially part of a criminal element. So...

MG: So, what should we do about? As a nation, what should we do about that?

DAVE CARLSON: Well, I think we just have to, I think we have to be really strong in this. I...

MG: What was, sorry. What does that mean? Be really strong in that?

DAVE CARLSON: Well, I think the messaging has to be that you can't, you can't just come here and cross the border. I mean, it's besides being dangerous to, to a migrant themselves crossing, you know, you can potentially die. It's just, we don't have the resources to, to absorb this, this what could potentially be tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. We already have a housing crisis. We have a medical, our medical system's overburdened. Like the other night when we had a call, there were six crossers and there's three ambulances on site. And that's pretty much the entire, entirety of the ambulances in our area, as well as having our medical first responders there and RCMP. So, those resources are all in one spot for one issue. Well, what happens to the rest of the community if there's, if there's something happening? So, it's things like that I just know that we, I don't believe we can, can absorb such a number of people. Again, you want to be compassionate and do what's right. But we, I think we also have to, to make sure that whoever is crossing is fully vetted. And I think they need to be returned to where they're, where they're coming from.

MG: Denis, do you worry about that as well? I want to go to Jody in a moment, but do you worry about that, Denis? We've spoken with people, and this was at the height of the Roxham Road issue. People who are working in Montreal, for example, with folks who are seeking asylum and very, their services were overwhelmed because of the number of people who are coming across. Do you worry that that could happen again if that deportation plan in the United States goes forward?

DENIS BOUCHARD: Yes, but I think the way to address the problem is we have an immediate problem. Yes, of course, we have to do something about it. But the problem will not go away by pouring $1 billion or 2 or 3 into military operations along the border. What we have to do as the president of Mexico said, Claudia Sheinbaum said Trump in her phone call, 'It's not by closing borders, but by bridging between governments and between people that we will help things.' You know, when you have embargoes and sanctions and whatever that hurt southern countries and impact on their citizens, it's just fuels that kind of mass migration and it will not stop. We can try to stop it here by doing things like, you know, drones and whatever. That's like if you have a bathtub that's overflowing, you're throwing, you know, towels on the floor to sponge the water up. But that won't help if you don't close the tap. What we have to do is do something to help people in their own country to make it a safe and, you know, pleasant place to live and not a place where you are, you're fearful and you're extremely poor and so on. And then on the long term, yes, unfortunately, it won't stop the problem that we have now. But on the long term, it's going to do something and it's going to cost much less than militarizing our border.

MG: Jody Stone, you're right there. And so, one of the things we found when we went down to the southern border with the United States to Mexico, is the closer you get to the border, the more complicated and nuanced this issue is. People have all sorts of opinions from a distance. But you're right there. How do you see this and the possibility that whatever happens in the United States will impact your own community, and how you relate with that border?

JODY STONE: I'm really not sure what your question...

MG What are you most worried about? Are you worried about that? I mean, Dave talked about a tsunami. Are you worried about that impacting your own community?

JODY STONE: Well, everything's a worry, right? The uncertainty of a president that is willing to completely change the dynamics between our two countries is scary. I think everybody, the embargo is something that's being talked about a lot by everybody in the community. And I'm sure it's being talked about in the community on the other side. So, yeah, it's the uncertainty, I believe that, that's scaring people and the fact that, you know, that President Trump, President-elect, is willing to say just about anything to, to please his, his followers is scary as well.

MG: The border is, it's a physical line, but it's also something we were saying that kind of lives in people's minds as well in terms of how we think about our relationship with the United States. If that were to change, if the border were to be strengthened, how do you think your relationship, Jody, with the border would be different?

JODY STONE: I. It depends, because it's almost impossible to make it. You can't build the wall instance that you can, you can't do it. It's just the communities are so intertwined that it's impossible. It's just, we definitely need to keep the communications between our two countries open. You know, policies at the federal level for maybe aerial tourism might need to be adjusted or, you know, because our border, there's no other way into Canada than, than the air. So, those maybe, that's the, the area we need to look into changing some of our policies.

MG: Dave, what about for you? I mean, what would change in terms of how you think about the border if it were to be strengthened?

DAVE CARLSON: Well, I guess we see drones around, potentially. And more resources patrolling, things like that. I mean, it's, it's pretty open here. It always has been. I mean, it's, it is going to be sad once you see things get so much more tight between us because you just remember the way things were. But if there is, if there's drugs and guns and different things crossing the borders, I, I see that if we're patrolling, say, CBSA, which they've discussed is potentially patrolling between the ports, I think it's a good idea just because there, there's things that like, who wants anyone smuggling? Who wants anyone, you know, potentially coming into your remote farmyard and, you know, potentially they're a criminal? Like, I mean there hey, there's, there's good people, too. But you just never know. If you're if you're willing to cross a border illegally, you just never know. So, I think if we're, we're doing our part on our side, hopefully, you know, Trump will say, 'Okay, you're doing what you need to be doing and, and the tariffs won't happen' and things like that. But I mean, I'm guessing this is to change our behaviours. I assume they have stats they're looking at that, what happens from the north, I know we, we've seen a few stats. Kind of surprised me. I thought things were more coming this way. But, I guess things go both ways. So...

MG: Do you think that change is inevitable, though?

DAVE CARLSON: Yeah, the change is, the change is inevitable. I don't think there's any way around it. So, I think we just have to kind of go with it and try to take the positives he can out of it. There's no, there's, if there's less drug trafficking and guns and human trafficking, then I think it's, it's a better situation.

MG: Denis, what about just finally for you? I mean, again, the border is a thing, a physical thing, but it's also a symbol for many Canadians. And that symbol speaks to the relationship between these two countries. Do you think that symbol is, is going to be threatened by what we're talking about?

DENIS BOUCHARD: Very much so. Yeah. It used to be, as the other people said, it used to be a fairly easy crossing and people would share services and so on. I'd like to say that there are in fact no reports of any assaults by migrants along the border, at least in this area here that I know of. I'm a bit worried to see politicians already sort of competing to show who's the toughest Trump, you know? They're saying basically, if we make it tough enough for them to come here, they won't come. Well, I would say instead, if we make it easy enough for them to have a good, decent living in their own country, well then they won't come and they'll lose safely and decently. It's, there are already helicopters flying over regularly. There are, of course, the RCMP cars along the border constantly. If that's the kind of border we're going to get, it's not going to be pleasant at all to live along the border.

MG: It sounds like it's already happening now.

DENIS BOUCHARD: Yeah, it's starting very much so. Yeah.

MG: Yeah. It's great to speak with all three of you about this. Thank you very much.

EVERYONE: Thank you. Thanks, Matt.

MG: Denis Bouchard lives in Hemmingford, Quebec. It's on the border with New York, right at Roxham Road. He works at Bridges, not Borders, to support migrants who are crossing that border. Dave Carlson is the Reeve for the municipality of Emerson-Franklin in Manitoba on the border with Minnesota and North Dakota, also a volunteer firefighter in his community. And Jody Stone is the mayor of Stanstead, Quebec, on the border with Vermont. If you live in a border community in Canada, we would love to hear from you. How have you seen that border change over time? All three of our guests talked about what the border used to be like in terms of ease of crossing and how that has evolved over time, but also what changes to the Canada-U.S. border would you like to see and what would those changes, if it's strengthened, what would they actually mean to you in terms of your ease of passage back and forth from Canada into the United States? E-mail us and let us know what it's like to live on the border, and perhaps what you see that other people don't see. You can e-mail us at: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Your regional update is coming up, and then...

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SASKATCHEWAN VOICE 1: You should know that winter comes in Saskatchewan. Why would you [inaudible] around with bald tires today?

SASKATCHEWAN VOICE 2: Even though I have winter tires, [Music: Theme fading in] I never know about the guy behind me, or the guy coming through the intersection, right?

MG: It is not a season for bald tires. Driving in winter can be tricky, especially if you or the cars around you are slipping and sliding all over the place. The question is: Is mandating winter tires, as they do in Quebec, the answer to create safer streets? We'll talk about that coming up. We're back in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current. Stick around.

[Music: Theme]

And whether snow tires should be mandatory

Guests: Alison Masemann, Robin Robertson

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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JESSICA WAITE: I can remember Sean fondly now for the parts of him that I loved and admired. I don't, I don't feel, you know, triggered by the things that used to be upsetting for me. And, and so I. Yeah, I feel like we're on good terms. If we meet sometime in the afterlife, I won't punch you in the face, which wasn't always guaranteed. But yeah, right now I, I feel a sense of peace.

MG: That's Jessica Waite in our conversation last week about her new memoir, "A Widow's Guide to Dead Bastards." Jessica's husband, Sean, died suddenly of a heart attack, and that is when she discovered he had a whole secret life, a life that included infidelity and a stash of pornography. Jessica talked about those secrets, but also how she navigates grief and anger at the same time, and how talking to other people who had been widowed helped her move through those different emotions. After that conversation, we heard from many of you and our producer, Alison Masemann, is here to sift through some of your mail. Allison, good morning.

ALISON MASEMANN: Morning, Matt. Yeah, our listeners were very generous in sharing some of their stories about loss and grief. And for some of them, Jessica's story resonated very directly. This is from Lorraine Zettler, 'I was suddenly widowed at 49, heart attack, and discovered that my person gambled our life savings away. It was not long after the funeral that the bailiff came to take anything of value, including my car, which I needed to get to work. I had two young teens at home to support. It was four years before I even had time to grieve because I'd been too busy salvaging our lives. I still feel anger that he had kept a huge secret. Communicate with your loved ones, people. If you have a problem, they will help. Don't ruin innocent lives.'

MG: Lynne Parker writes, 'My husband and I met in high school. Love at pretty well first sight, married young age 19, went through university together, had two beautiful kids. He completed his Ph.D., landed a job in Edmonton. He had one more trip to Calgary for his oral presentation. I remember getting up very early that morning with him, hugging him, wishing him well. Watching his tail lights as he drove away. And that was unknowingly the end of my life as I had known it. He came home that night a completely changed person. Over the next three years, there was confusion, chaos, tears, fear. I had to take the kids and go into hiding. There were restraining orders, police and arrests, and a time spent in a psychiatric hospital. My good and dear husband, the guy that I planned to live my life with, had schizophrenia. The details of those three years are just too many to write here. Let me just say it was bad.' Lynne then writes that they went to divorce court and then shortly after that, he died by suicide. And she goes on to say, 'I have to admit that my first reaction to the news was absolute and profound relief. I didn't have to be scared anymore. I was angry at him for years. I'm not angry anymore. I have forgiven him or life or whatever it was that threw such a curveball my way. I've made sure to share good stories about their dad with my kids and grandkids. I am grateful for all the good memories of our sweet years together.'

ALISON MASEMANN: Deborah McLellan also wrote to us about her complicated mix of emotions, 'I lost my partner almost four years ago. He died of cancer during COVID times and I cared for him at home. My partner was witty, loving, creative and energetic. He was a force. He was also addicted to alcohol, which makes any relationship more fraught. I still feel a mix of loss, sadness, anger and resentment and guilt. Another widow said to me that the biggest loss is not having that one person always in your corner, the one you can reach out to in the middle of the night when you're ill, complain to about the slights and annoyances of daily life, share your enthusiasm for your favorite music, tell you which earrings look best on you and tell you you're beautiful when you're really an average-looking woman. How do you replace that?' We also heard from people who talked about what it means to keep going when your partner dies. Here's a letter we got from Marilyn Phillips, 'I lost my husband, Alan in August 2023. This is my second Christmas without him, and I'm finding it more difficult than the first one. Emotionally, I carry my grief every minute of every day and keep putting one foot in front of the other. We were together for 48 years, and his death was completely unexpected, as he had a 99 per cent chance of surviving his cardiac surgery. I think the loneliness is the worst, and I miss the support of sharing issues with someone and his hugs. I'm very proud of myself. However, learning how to cope with the household repairs that he always looked after. I'm also so truly grateful that I always told him that I loved him and appreciated what he did for us all. This is a difficult journey, however, one that nobody escapes. Sharing and reaching out to others helps, too.'

MG: Marilyn talks about that idea of finding common ground with other widows, and this is something that, that Jessica Waits spoke with us about as well.

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah, and one of the places that Jessica found some of that common ground was at this event called Camp Widow. As I was working on that interview with Jessica, I actually went to Camp Widow last month. And I heard so many really compelling stories from people there. I thought I'd share a few more with you.

MG: Okay, So remind us what Camp Widow is all about.

ALISON MASEMANN: It's an annual event, and it's run by a non-profit called Soaring Spirits Canada. Basically, it's like a conference for people whose partners have died. People come from all over North America. And at this year's event, there were about 250 people there or so.

MG: So when you walked in, what did you think?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, I went down these escalators and got into the main sort of reception area. [Sounds of people being joyful]. There were lots of people hugging, sort of exclaiming, running into old friends. That's what it felt like. There was people at the conference who'd lost their partner really young, like in their 30s. And the other thing was, it's not all women, so it's not, strictly speaking, widows, but also widowers. There was about 40 men or so at this year's conference. There were those people that were happy to see one another hugging and so on. But there were also these people who you could tell were a bit more solitary. They were sliding into their seats in the main ballroom. One woman that was sitting right in front of me looked pretty nervous to be there. And she, I could see that she had this Ziploc bag full of Kleenex tucked into her purse. Jodi Skeates, who's the CEO of Soaring Spirits, took to the stage and you could tell she was trying to sort of offer some reassurance to people about what this was all about.

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JODI SKEATES: Yes, we're all alone because grief is a very individual journey. I often say it feels like a maze. You constantly turn a corner and you never really know which part of the maze you're on. It could be rocky or it could be thorny. It can be thundering and lightning. And I don't know if any of you remember walking through your childhood maze, and it was sort of fun to hear the people on the other side because you knew there was a way out, right? There was like somebody else on this maze with you.

MG: And so once people get settled in, what do they do all weekend at this event at Camp Widow?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, it is like, they make jokes about how there's no campfires there, right? But it is more like a conference. People are kind of divided into these streams. So, you might be in the recently widowed stream or you might be a little bit further into your journey or what they call a seasoned widow or widowed person. And everyone's got these lanyards that they wear. So, they've got, people put ribbons on the end of it. So it indicates your vintage, so to speak, five years, seven years, whatever. And then out in the lobby, there's like this little marketplace area. You can buy various books about widowhood. There's lots of widow-themed swag. So, there's T-shirts that say 'Badass widow,' buttons that say 'Love never dies' and stickers that say 'Death sucks.'

MG: And people talk a lot about death. I mean, it's kind of death in your face.

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. There's really no taboos there. This is a place where you can get into these conversations about death and grief in a way that can feel really difficult in the wider world. And there's also this big wall of photos. So here's volunteer Stacy Brown explaining what that's all about.

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STACEY BROWN: This is our tribute tile wall. And so, campers have the opportunity to send in a photo of their person. And so, when they are at camp and they're meeting people, they can also introduce them to their person. So this is my husband, Andre. And so when I get to know people because we talk about our people all weekend, but you're, you're talking to people who don't know them, will never know them. And yet, you know, and it's nice to be able to put faces to names and just to bring them with us.

MG: The language is really interesting. You're referring to somebody as your person?

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah. Everybody's got a person. And as I found out, every person has a story. And I found that people were super willing to share those stories with me.

MG: Tell us about some of the people that you met.

ALISON MASEMANN: So, one of the first people I met at Camp Widow was Steven Sousa, who's from Ajax, Ontario. He first started coming to the camp in 2019, and that was several months after his wife of 17 years, Maggie, had died of cancer. He was left raising their three kids and he'd been struggling to find some support.

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STEVEN SOUSA: It was pretty lonesome, honestly. You know, I went to, there was a local group in my area and yes, there was 10 people there. And for a while, I think that was the only guy. So it is yes, you do feel pretty lonely and you do feel on the outside. Sometimes, there's also, it can be a little bit of a dismissive attitude a lot. There's, there's a general consensus that, you know, men tend to move on early or men tend to get over it earlier. So, you find that community, but you're still a little bit on the outside. And coming here, it's you know, this was also the first time that I actually found a large enough community of men that we could, you know, go into. My first men's group here at Camp Widow was so overwhelming and so emotional. And it was, it was an amazing experience. Finally, I can actually talk to other guys who get it.

MG: I'm super interested in that vulnerability and masculinity and how the two kind of coexist. Did you talk to other men in this space?

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah, I did. I met a man named Greg Mayes, and so he's, he lives in Milton, Ontario, and he's really involved in Camp Widow. He's been volunteering for a number of years. He runs men's groups. He's a member of the board.

MG: And what did he tell you about his own experience?

ALISON MASEMANN: Greg's story was also unique and interesting. His wife, Rose, was diagnosed with appendix cancer in 2015, and as her condition progressed, she decided on a medically-assisted death. And so I wondered how that had affected Greg's experience with grief.

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GREG MAYES: I don't like to compare my, my grief to somebody else's, because everybody's grief is different. With my grief, there was some anticipatory grief because of the fact that was a terminal illness. For two years, she fought it with 26 rounds of chemo and about five rounds of an experimental drug. Am, and then in the end, she just, and when she went into hospice, she's thought, 'I'm going to use MAID because the prognosis just doesn't look good for the future.' Feeding tubes and just she didn't want to do that. She had a sense of dignity, that she wanted to go out on her own terms. So, she only, only it was only my sister-in-law and myself that knew the day. She didn't want to tell my two daughters. They're, they were, 21 and 26 at the time. The, she was diagnosed Mom, Mother's Day 2015. And then, we, the MAID process happened the day after Mother's Day in 2017. So Mother's Day, when I was taking her back to hospice was hard because she knew the next day she wouldn't see them again. And sorry, I get choked up thinking about it. The words that she said when I when we were in the van and was she was waving goodbye to the kids, she said, this is the hardest thing I've ever done.

MG: That's really, it's really quite something.

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah, I mean, incredibly tough [MG: Yeah] to go through that. [MG: Yeah.] When you talk to people at this, at this conference, you realize that, that each person has this very particular story about grief and about how it has affected them. And at the same time, they all find comfort in finding other people who can relate in some way to what they have experienced. That's also what I heard from a woman named Janice Martin. We were talking about the experience of LGBTQ widows and widowers. She's a really soft-spoken person. She told me she was an introvert, a little bit nervous about sitting down to share her story.

MG: What did she tell you about what she's going through?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, her story is about her wife, Karen, who died in 2011 of cancer. And at the time, she found that there really wasn't a lot of support out there for LGBTQ widows.

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JANICE MARTIN I was actually shocked because I sought out a queer grief spousal loss group, and there wasn't one at that time. I thought, surely with the AIDS crisis, there would be such a thing. No, there wasn't. So I had built a very straight and narrow community before that, we'll say. Had come out at 40. I have a couple of children and I was obviously out to them because I married Karen and out to my parents. They didn't come to my wedding. So, degrees of acceptance. But I know there are many people who don't have that kind of acceptance. They're kicked out of their families. They don't have the family that would normally support a widow to rely on for validation of the relationship and validation of the loss of the relationship. It's an emotion-denying, death-denying society, and it's hard to be a widow, period. It's hard to have that other layer of invisibility or feeling of lack of support sometimes. But here in this safe bubble, people get it.

MG This is something that Jessica Waite talked about in the interview that we did with her, that we live in this society where people don't talk about death. They don't talk about grief despite the fact that it's this universal thing that everybody's going to go through, and that when we do talk about it, we have some sort of expectation as to what this is going to look like.

ALISON MASEMANN: Absolutely. And it was amazing sort of almost to a person. When I spoke with people at Camp Widow, they brought up this idea of getting over it. Here's what a woman named Nancy told me about how some people reacted to her grief.

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NANCY: I think they thought I would get over it. That expression really is bothersome. We go through it. I have some absolutely fabulous days and other days, even now, almost seven years, I don't want to come out of the house. There's something that will trigger, maybe a song or something I've read, something on TV and I don't understand sometimes why I still am like this at seven years, but I don't dwell on it, either.

MG: I mean, anybody who has been through this knows that it is a nonlinear process.

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah, I, you know, I heard from other people about that idea that, you know, somehow you move beyond it, right? And, you know, you remember that guy, Steven Sousa, and the dad I introduced you to at the beginning of this, who was widowed in 2019. He talked to me about how even though he has a new partner now, he still thinks of himself as a widowed person, even if other people might forget.

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STEVEN SOUSA: My own mother says, Why are you going to Camp Widows? Well, because Maggie still died. She's still not here. I'm still raising our children without their mother. It doesn't matter that I've remarried again. I still have all that lost. Children graduate. And every time a child graduates, I know that their mother is not here. I remember how proud she would be of them. And so, the losses do keep coming and it's never over. You never actually graduate or finish. Life just keeps changing.

MG: It's interesting you don't graduate [ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah] from grief.

ALISON MASEMANN: Yeah, we heard that from our listeners, too. Here's some of what Jackie [inaudible] wrote, 'My beloved husband died quite suddenly seven years ago at Christmas. He was killed in a car accident. He drove off one morning and I never saw him again. I was totally unprepared for this, of course. And what I was even more unprepared for was the immediate need for me to take over running his business. Seven years later, I finally managed to sell it, and for the first time since he died, I don't have to keep putting my grief aside to function as a high-powered business person. As the years go by, fewer and fewer people understand that I can still be grieving. It's easy to start feeling ashamed or judged and to feel very isolated in my grief. I think it's so important and so wonderful when people can share this experience together and realize that it's a very normal natural response to such a devastating loss, no matter how long it takes.'

MG: It's interesting. Part of the response to this is that people feel like we aren't talking a lot about grief and talking about it in the right way. Anderson Cooper has this podcast, which is wildly popular, which is all about that, that idea that we need to acknowledge something that we try to bury. So, what, what do we do about this? How do we get better at understanding that grief is a normal thing?

ALISON MASEMANN: Well, there's this notion of grief literacy, which is something I talked to Jodi Skeates about. You remember, she's the woman who was leading Camp Widow.

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JODI SKEATES: Our community doesn't bring death to the dining room table. And I think we can learn from other cultures when it comes to how they deal with the reality of death. We're all going to die. We all need to deal with the belongings of our, of our loved ones. We all need to deal with the absence of our loved ones. We need to prepare for that death. I think there's a lot to learn. There's a movement afoot right now to bring grief literacy to the forefront so more people will not be caught off guard by their grief experience.

MG: And so, part of that is just what did she say, bring death to the dining room table?

ALISON MASEMANN: Just talking about it more, right? Which I hope we have contributed to. And, you know, as you can imagine, Jodi, I mean, part of the whole purpose of Camp Widow was opening up that conversation. And, and, you know, she points out it's, it's not necessarily a depressing conversation. It, it can provide a way forward for people. It can really be a source of hope. And that was kind of the message that she tried to deliver at the conference.

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JODI SKEATES: So people have a really interesting relationship with hope. Sometimes you don't want to hope. You don't dare hope because the last time you hoped, you ended up devastated. When we see hope at soaring spirits, it isn't like a sparkly, shining diamond-like hope. It's a gritty hope. It's the hope that you got to work hard for. It's, you know, it's the hope that getting out of the bed today is the right decision for you. It's just the hope to keep going forward sturdy. You have to keep finding it. Sometimes, hope can be for the long term and sometimes it's just for the next moment. But it matters. Hope matters.

MG: It's really interesting. Alison, thank you very much for this.

ALISON MASEMANN: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Alison Masemann is a producer here at The Current.

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MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway.

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VOICE 1: I'm sorry, this is just a call for the idiot in the white G.R. Hatch. Holding up traffic. Sliding guy couldn't stop. Couldn't go. Literally watched him slide his car right into the curb. All-wheel drive only works when you are connected to the ground. Get some snow tires. Okay?

VOICE 2: You should know that winter comes in Saskatchewan. Why would you [inaudible] around with bald tires today? Like, crazy.

VOICE 3: Even though I have winter tires, I never know about the guy behind me or the guy coming through the intersection, right?

MG: Despite fears and frustrations like that, it turns out many Canadians do not actually use winter tires. All season tires are good enough, some of us say. Winter tires are also expensive. That's changing, though, in terms of how people are using that technology. Three quarters of Canadians switched to winter tires, more than ever before. In Quebec, winter tires are mandatory from the 1st of December through the 15th of March. If you don't have them on your car, you can be fined. In British Columbia, you have to use winter tires on mountainous roads. In the rest of Canada, though, it is up to you. Robin Robertson would like to compel people to change their tires in winter. She's president and CEO of the Traffic Injury Research Foundation. Robin, good morning.

ROBIN ROBERTSON: Good morning, Matt.

MG All-season tires, not good enough?

ROBIN ROBERTSON: Not good enough with the unpredictable and changing winters that we have in a lot of parts of Canada.

MG: What do we know? What is the evidence that shows that winter tires actually work to keep us, as we say, ideally out of the ditch?

ROBIN ROBERTSON: Well, we have spent a lot of time looking at winter tires. And each year, when winter, winter is coming, it's one of our reports that really gets a lot of media coverage because the science is clear. Having winter tires helps you with stopping distance, helps you with braking and handling and maintaining control of your vehicle. And you're right, there is that perception that all-season tires are good enough. And we know from research that, that they're not. Winter tires are going to give you more grip, more traction on the road where traction exists. And if you've ever driven in lightly snow-covered, slushy, wet or very, very dry, cold roads, winter tires are going to improve your driving experience and help you get home safely at the end of the day.

MG: We're talking about winter tires. We are not talking about snow tires. People will use the terms interchangeably. But there is a difference, right?

ROBIN ROBERTSON: Right. So, snow tires are used for driving in heavy, deep snow, whereas winter tires are good for road conditions below plus seven. Yes, plus seven Celsius. When the temperatures hit plus seven, you really should change to winter tires because the rubber compound in the tire remains more elastic and flexible, which gives you better grip on the road. With all-season tires, that rubber tends not to perform as well when it just doesn't give you the grip.

MG: Now seeing three quarters of Canadians switched to winter tires now. That's more than ever before. But there are a lot of people, you don't need to look at evidence that's written out. You can see it as you look out the window of your car as you're driving around. Lots of people who will not switch to winter tires and they will run out all sorts of excuses that all-season tires, as we said, are good enough, that it's expensive, it's a pain to have to go into the shop and have your tires switched. Maybe you have to figure out where to store those tires, you have to lug them around. What do you say to people who have all sorts of excuses not to use winter tires?

ROBIN ROBERTSON: I'd say that the cost of crashes is much higher than the cost of winter tires. And, and we see that in, in the data when you're driving in poor road conditions and you don't have winter tires, you can see them beside you. They're the ones who are fishtailing, they're the ones who are sliding off the road in the ditch, those are ones who can, who can't stop at a red light on time, and slide through the intersection. So, yeah, so winter tires, the cost of winter tires, you have to measure that against the cost of crashes, not just for you and for your family, but for everyone else out on the road.

MG: They are expensive, though, right? And you wonder whether a crash that hasn't happened can seem like an abstract cost, whereas going and buying a set of winter tires can cost you a lot of money at a time when people are pinched at the best of times.

ROBIN ROBERTSON: Right? Absolutely. And I think you tend to think that you'll be okay. But, you know, for Canadians across the country, we've seen winter conditions change. We've seen places where you don't typically get snow more often, get snow, like out here in B.C. and then you've got, you know, the, the winter storms that come on the East Coast, you get lake effect snow. And I think all of us are familiar with driving in winter conditions where the snow is just blowing across the road and drifting. And those are exactly the kinds of conditions where you want winter tires. So, you're gambling with your safety, essentially.

MG: What about people who say, 'I'm a very good driver? There's no, I don't need to worry about this. I'm an excellent driver.'

ROBIN ROBERTSON: Right. So, here's two interesting facts about winter tires that will hopefully help give people some perspective. A car that has winter tires on an icy road needs a little bit more than six meters to stop. And if you're driving with all-season tires, that becomes 12 metres. So, when you think about the speed with which you're traveling, when you think about the congestion on the roads, how often do you have 12 metres in front of you to come to a stop when you need to? The other interesting thing is a two-wheel drive vehicle that has winter tires will outperform a four-wheel drive vehicle with all-season tires when it comes to braking and cornering.

MG: So, why don't we regulate this then? I mean, in Quebec, as we said, friends and family will tell you that, that from the 1st of December, you need to have your winter tires on or you could be hit with a fine. Do we need to, to make this mandatory across the country?

ROBIN ROBERTSON: Well, I think education is really important. I think legislation can be difficult to enforce and it can be costly. And in Quebec, it is a little bit different because they have winter. You know, when you look at the different parts of Canada, they are used to heavy snow conditions and they're used to very cold temperatures. Whereas you look at a province like B.C., you know, where winter is much more mild. We tend not to have a lot of snow, although we do get snow. So, you know, I think it's, I think it's about choices that people make. And I think helping people understand even the safety features in your vehicle don't, aren't going to work as well if you don't have the proper tires on your vehicle and, you know, the safety features on your vehicle are a lot of the reasons for purchasing decisions.

MG: So you think I mean, education is strong enough, not enforcement?

ROBIN ROBERTSON: I think education's important. I think enforcement is very challenging. There are insurers across the country that are offering incentives for people to switch to winter tires. And for those of us, I mean, once you've driven in snow and kind of see how vastly different it is to just driving on, you know, dry roads, you know, it gives you some insight into why the investment in winter tires is important.

MG: We'll see whether people pick up on that investment. Robin, thank you very much.

ROBIN ROBERTSON: Thank you very much, Matt.

MG: Robin Robertson is President and CEO of the Traffic Injury Research Foundation. If you have thoughts, should the rest of the country follow the lead of Quebec and say you have to have the winter tires on? People just colloquially call them the snows, but they're not snow tires. But should you have the winter tires on and be mandated to do that? [Music: Theme fading in] You can email us if you have thoughts: Thecurrent@cbc.ca. That is The Current for this Wednesday, the 11th of December. Q is up next on CBC Radio One, remembering the great poet Nikki Giovanni, who died yesterday. Interview with Tom Power that was done a little while ago. They're going to re-run that interview. You can hear that coming up in just a few moments here on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. We'll see tomorrow.

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Wednesday, December 11, 2024 Full Transcript

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