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The Current Transcript for December 10, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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VOICE 1: My heart just dropped out of my chest Because I immediately thought about the family waiting to hear from us in Pakistan.

MATT GALLOWAY: Since the 1970s, Canada has been allowing private individuals and groups to sponsor refugees coming to Canada. This program exploded in popularity during the Syrian Civil War, with church groups, community organisations and friends banding together to give refugees a new life here. Now, the Federal Government has hit the brakes on private sponsorship, amidst a larger conversation around immigration in Canada. In 30 minutes, what a halt in a program studied around the world means for Canada, and for those waiting to come here. Also this morning, meet your neighbours.

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SHIRLEY: I like it here. I have friends and the [inaudible]. We cook and we share with one another. It's very helpful because most of the time I'm living alone and I'm so, so lonely.

MATT GALLOWAY: At a time when loneliness is being described as a public health crisis, the answer, some say, is to create the conditions for people to actually bump into each other. In an hour, how cities are encouraging social interaction, even in and especially in -35 degree weather, and why it might be a good idea to nod to that person you see every morning on the way to the bus. But we begin with the crippling cost of getting sick. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

The cost of cancer

Guests: Vanessa Percoco, Ioana Nicolau

MG: A diagnosis of cancer is news no one wants to get. Despite years of research and progress in treatment and survival rates, cancer is still terrifying, painful, life-changing, and too often, life-ending. It is also extremely expensive. A new report from the Canadian Cancer Society estimates the disease will cost the Canadian economy more than $37 billion this year, and close to 20 per cent of that is borne by the patients and caregivers themselves. Vanessa Percoco was diagnosed with colorectal cancer in 2022. She's in our Montreal studio. Vanessa, good morning.

VANESSA PERCOCO: Hi, how are you?

MG: I'm okay. How are you doing?

VANESSA PERCOCO: I'm good. I'm very good.

MG: I'm glad to hear that. This is I mean, tell me what you're comfortable with, because we're asking personal questions, so this is difficult. But take us back to, to when you first got sick. You were just 31, right?

VANESSA PERCOCO: I was 31, exactly. So, I...

MG: When did you know that something was wrong?

VANESSA PERCOCO: So, I had just, I started having, like, pain in my stomach. And I was just finished with my first year of university. I was studying to becoming a teacher, and they gave me a small contract, you know, to end the, to end the year. And then, I had to rush to the hospital because I was in so much pain. And I spent about 11 days, you know, trying to find out what was wrong with me. We did some tests, some scans, bloodwork, and we couldn't find anything. So, they had to open me up to find out not only that I had cancer, colorectal cancer, but I had, it was pretty advanced. And I woke up as well with a colostomy bag on my stomach.

MG: I can't imagine what that would have been like.

VANESSA PERCOCO: It was, I think, I, you know, I think it was, there's no words to describe. It's very, you get emotional. You get people around you, your family, the reactions. I think I couldn't even, like realise what was going on at this point.

MG: If you don't mind me asking, what sort of treatment did you have to have?

VANESSA PERCOCO: I had to go through 12 chemotherapy treatments every two weeks. But they were always, there was always something going on. You know, I was getting sick. I was getting a lot of side effects. So, I had to, you know, wait to get better to get treatment. And chemo made me really, I was, you know, sick. But it made me more sick because there's a lot of side effects to the chemo that you get in your body.

MG: Which sort of, I mean, we have universal care in this country. You know, the great advantage of, of that care is that when you leave the hospital, they don't present you with a bill. You don't have to give your credit card or what have you. But there were things that you did have to pay for out of pocket that you needed to, to take care of yourself. What did you have to pay for?

VANESSA PERCOCO: I had to pay for the colostomy bags, which I didn't know what a bag was before having one. And of course, they give you samples to try, but then everything is, you know, it's expensive. You have to buy the bag, the Band-Aid, you have to change it every four days. And that's, you know, it's not covered. And then once you're out of the hospital from, I got three surgeries within like a year and a half, two years, every time you have to recover from those surgeries and the chemo and all that you have to pay for... Excuse me, you have to pay for, you know, how do you say it? Drugs and, you know, at the drugstore. So...

[cross-talk]

MG: How much, how much did you pay for those prescription drugs?

VANESSA PERCOCO: It depends. I mean, I had to pay. So, my first surgery, when I got out, I needed a bunch of different drugs. And it came out to, let's say, $200. That was only for me to get better from that surgery, from that first surgery. And then, I go to the store to get the colostomy bag. And again, that's another $400. So right there, you're not expecting to pay any of that stuff because in some ways, I didn't decide. And I, you know, I wasn't aware that I was going to have to go through all this.

MG: And these are, these are [VANESSA PERCOCO: And that's just some amounts.] These are things that are, these are things that aren't covered by, by any insurance. But they're also not just covered through our own, you know, universal health care.

VANESSA PERCOCO: No, it's not covered. You would think it would be covered, but it's not. It's, it's money you have to spend on trying new bags, what fits you well, what fits you correctly, because we all have different sizes and shapes. So, it's really the, the first month, the first months, you spend a lot on getting the right bag to fit you. And also, you spend a lot on medication because you need to feel better. So, a lot of medication doesn't work and works and it's, you get allergic reactions. You get, you know, a lot of stuff happens, side effects, most of, for most of all.

MG: There's also things you have to pay for in terms of expenses. I mean, you're living your lifestyle, so you need to pay food. You need to pay rent. Anybody who goes to a hospital or to the doctor knows that parking is, is crazy expensive, often in those institutions. You had to pay for that as well.

VANESSA PERCOCO: Exactly. So parking, gas and then, you know, you're not, you can't work. Right? So, you're always, I was going to the hospital several times a week and I had to stay sometimes to have my pick line change or have, you know, my bag. Something was leaking, something was wrong. So, a lot of the time, I had to actually be in the hospital and spend money on all that stuff.

MG: How much time did you have to take off work?

VANESSA PERCOCO: I had to be off work for at least two years until I felt better and good enough to go back.

MG: And was there any disability coverage to help pay those bills while you are off work?

VANESSA PERCOCO: I got 15 weeks of insurance of. You know, the, what they give you 15 weeks of, from when you work. And then, that's all I got. 15 weeks from starting from May when they discovered I had cancer. 15 weeks is what I got as for, to help me. And then, I was on my own and I didn't have any other help from, you know, I had help from my friends and family, of course, but no help from Quebec or Canada or whatever.

MG: Tell me about your family. I mean, your sister shut down her hair salon, right, to help you?

VANESSA PERCOCO: Yes. Not only her, but a lot of my family had to stop working at some point to take care of me because I was very sick, and they had to leave work and closed their, their, my sister closed her hair salon to just stick around and cook for me and sometimes even like give me baths because I was so sick and I was, you know, in a bad place. So, a lot of my people, a lot of my people, friends, family, of course, more my sisters and my mom had to leave work to be around me a lot and stick around because I couldn't take care of myself.

MG: Did you ever I mean, again, this is hard, but did you ever, because it's so expensive and life continues on and you have to pay those bills, but the money's not coming in. Did you ever have to make compromises in the, the quality of care that you were getting because of the cost that you had to pay?

VANESSA PERCOCO: I did. At some point, I was asking myself, let's say for medication, I needed a medication for chemo to help me feel better and not get so sick. Right? Because you get really sick again, like I said before. So at some point I was like, should I get the medication or should I keep the money to pay my rent or my car? Because I didn't want to lose my name, I didn't want to lose, I was already losing all my sanity from having to go through all this. I was debating. I was anxious. I was nervous. I was stressing about money so much and I had to depend on everyone because I also had to go through, you know, physiotherapist, osteo therapist. I needed physical. I needed, you know, to see a therapist, because when you go through this, it's really hard. People around you, your family are there, but, you know, they're most, most of the time, they're sad and they want to be there for you. But they, you know, it's not, they're helpful. But you need to talk to someone and that's, you have to pay for that. All that, all that's not covered, you know, And nutritionist as, as well.

MG: You said that this isn't fair. I mean, which is in part why you've, you've been talking about this, right? That it's not fair that you, I mean, as you're trying to get better, you have all these other things to deal with as well.

VANESSA PERCOCO: I think it's unfair that we have to go through chemo not knowing if we're going to make it, right? If we're going to be able to live, and we have to stress about money. Let's say I made it and I'm good now, but let's say I would have stressed about money and then, worry about chemo and then, be gone or, you know, passed away, the ending of my life would have been about stressing about money and making me feel better. I think sometimes if we could, you know, have something covered or in some way like a build-up program, I'm not saying to cover for everything, but at least be prepared because we're never prepared. And I didn't have any money aside to pay for all that stuff. And I don't think I should be using the money that I, you know, in my savings to cover for my cancer charges or whatever needs to be done around that.

MG: And I mean, you would have had, you go into this and you have no idea what it's like to get sick. But you, did you have any idea that if you were ever to get sick, that you would also have to help, you know, carry some of the cost of that?

VANESSA PERCOCO: No, not at all. I was, no. I was very, I was very shocked, especially about paying the bags, which, you know, the colostomy bags cost a lot of money. And you need to find, I mean, you're wearing it. So, it's not about being like a princess and saying, 'Oh, I want to wear the nicest bag.' It's not nice to wear. It's not fun to wear. It's very, actually, I was very embarrassed to even talk about it. So for me to talk about it and share it with, you know, everyone is a very big step. But at first, I really wanted to be comfortable. So then you, you spend a lot of money on trying to find what fits you best and then, you have to change your clothes as well. So, you spend money on new clothes and new outfits because you don't want the bag to be seen or shown, you know? So, it's, it's expenses that you're not expecting. You leave the hospital and you don't know that you're going to have to go through this, especially if you're not being able to work, because my oncologist didn't want me, didn't want me to go back to work. There was no way for me to, to be in presence of people that could give me, you know, diseases or, or, you know, whatever, whatever was going around. So, I had to stay at home and just take care of myself.

MG: How are you doing now?

VANESSA PERCOCO: I'm so good. You know, I'm adjusting still because I had to reverse the, reverse my colostomy bag and I still have to go through nutrition and take care of myself and be aware of, you know, eating well. And also, I still have scar tissue a lot because the, I had three big major surgeries, so I still have to do physio and osteo. So, all of that is still expenses that I have to pay. But right now, I'm working. So, it's, I'm in a better place, right?

MG: I'm really glad to hear that. And I'm thankful that you would be willing to talk about this. It's really important and a story that I think a lot of people perhaps aren't aware of unless they have gone through what you have gone through. Vanessa, thank you very much and take care of yourself.

VANESSA PERCOCO: Thank you so much for having me.

MG: Vanessa Percoco was diagnosed with colorectal cancer in 2022. She was in our Montreal studio.

MG: Ioana Nicolau is co-chair of the Canadian Cancer Statistics and Advisory Committee. She is one of the study's co-authors. She's in our Calgary studio. Ioana, good morning to you.

IOANA NICOLAU: Good morning. How are you?

MG: I'm well. Does that sound like a familiar story?

IOANA NICOLAU: Yes, unfortunately it does.

MG: I think one of the things that's really shocking to people is that idea in this country that we have, I mean, it's part of our national identity. You have universal care. There are things that aren't covered. But the assumption is that if you get really sick, you're not going to have to present the credit card. You're not going to have to pay out of pocket for certain things. How much are Canadians paying out of pocket, as we just heard from Vanessa, to deal with the costs associated with going through cancer treatment?

IOANA NICOLAU: Yeah. So, in this report, what we found that was striking was that people with cancer and their caregivers have to shoulder $7.5 billion this year alone, and that's 20 per cent of that entire cost of cancer. That is the cost to society. And so, that's a staggering amount. And not only that, a lot of that, about 50 per cent of those costs, so $3.7 billion are actually out-of-pocket costs. So in the report, we included multiple costs for, to quantify the costs for people with cancer and their caregivers, and one of them was out-of-pocket. Like, we heard things like take-home medications, travel, transportation, accommodation. And then, the other costs that we included were lost opportunity costs. So, that was time cost related to time spent receiving care as well as lost income, as we heard for people that had to either leave their work altogether or pause and really spend that time to focus on their care and their recovery.

MG: Help people understand why it is that Vanessa, for example, would be on the hook to pay for colostomy bags, would be on the hook to pay for medication that she needs to keep her healthy and, and alive.

IOANA NICOLAU: Yeah. Unfortunately, these out-of-pocket costs, these time costs, lost income, especially the out-of-pocket costs are, these costs are not covered by the health care systems.

MG: I mean, you could understand in some ways why things like parking and for example, may not be covered, but the bag is something that she needs because of the surgery that she's had. I think a lot of people, and she thought this, that would just be covered. She would assume that that would be covered.

IOANA NICOLAU: Yeah, exactly. It's, it's very shocking. And in the report, we saw that these costs are average costs. And you can imagine that it's not the cost. The impact of the costs is not felt equally. And so, you could really have a wide range depending on the individual and their cancer experience. And especially for people of lower income, people that live in rural and remote areas in Canada, these costs can, can really have a tremendous impact. And we know that financial burden can lead to worse health outcomes in some cases.

MG: What more do we know about that? Again, Vanessa was talking about the stress that she had to deal with. She's trying to get better. She's dealing with this, this shocking diagnosis, but also then dealing with the stress of just keeping a roof over her head. What do we know about how that financial strain can impact your health outcomes?

IOANA NICOLAU: Yeah. So, one of the really interesting things about this report is that it's the first of its kind. And one of the reasons is that we collaborated with people who are affected by cancer and people with lived experience, and we incorporated their quotes and their experiences throughout the report to kind of help contextualise the data that we're seeing. And so, you can see in the quotes in the report that people are having to choose whether to, to take the medication or to delay or forgo the necessary treatments because they just can't afford it.

MG: Do we know whether, again, our, our health care system, for all the flaws that it has, our health care system is something that we hold up. And we will often compare ourselves as a nation to other countries in terms of their similar systems. How does Canada compare to other countries in terms of the amount of money that patients have to pay out-of-pocket when they're diagnosed with cancer?

IOANA NICOLAU: Well, that's something that's really hard to compare because, as you mentioned, Canada and every country has its own health system. And we really didn't compare in this report to other countries, partly because the methodology is so different. So, we just, we know, we wanted to kind of give a universal sense of what the cost is in Canada and really how much of that is shouldered by people with cancer.

MG: What do we need to do about this? I mean, again, people will be diagnosed with cancer today, and this is something that they'll be shocked by in terms of their diagnosis. But also in reading this report and hearing about it over the last couple of days, the costs that will be associated with that. So, what do we have to change as a society to make sure that people are able to take care of themselves but also not have to deal with that financial stress?

IOANA NICOLAU: Yeah, that's an excellent question. And I mean, cancer is a very complex disease and treatment is equally complex. And so, I think there's not one solution to help reduce the cost of cancer. I really do think that it takes all of us, it takes a society to try to come up with solutions to help lower cancer costs and, and support people going through this terrible experience.

MG: What specifically would you want to see? Knowing what you know, having, having collected this data from, from people who are going through this, what would you want, for example, government to do to be able to, to support people?

IOANA NICOLAU: I think we're hoping that this report kind of stimulates conversation. As I mentioned, it is the first of its kind. And so, we're really hoping that the numbers in this report are going to help decision makers and policymakers and that this report really gets people talking about these, these costs.

MG: I mean, it really is an example of, we, we talk about the care economy, for example, and the people who are involved in the care economy. There's a professionalized side of that, but there is also the unpaid work that volunteers do, that family members do. And that really highlights, is highlighted here as well.

IOANA NICOLAU: Yeah, exactly. I mean, another striking finding was that for the average person with cancer in Canada, cancer caused nearly 33,000 in their lifetime. I mean, that's, that's a significant amount. That could mean a down payment. That can mean helping your children with the cost of university. And so, and included in this cost is the lost income that caregivers might have to let go of because they're taking time off to care for the individual.

MG: Ioana, thank you very much for this.

IOANA NICOLAU: Thank you.

MG: Ioana Nicolau is co-chair of the Statistics Advisory Committee for the Canadian Cancer Society. The financial burden of this, I think, is shocking to a lot of people, but not to people who have had cancer. How has cancer affected your family financially? Have you had to choose between cancer treatment and other necessary expenses? And what do we do about this? You can let us know. Email us: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Part of a larger conversation, certainly around the health care system and what it does and doesn't cover here. Your CBC News is next. And then, we're going to talk about private refugee sponsorship. [Music: Theme fading in] This program exploded during the Syrian refugee crisis. It's now taking a hiatus. We're going to talk more about what is lost coming up in The Current.

[Music: Theme]

A pause on private refugee sponsorship

Guests: Natasha Friedus, John Joniad, Ratna Omidvar

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. In 2016, Gioia Morris wanted to do something to help refugees, and so she and her partner, along with four other couples, helped two Syrian refugees and their four kids settle into a new life in West Kelowna, British Columbia.

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GIOIA MORRIS: When we saw the suffering on such a huge scale and me being from Europe originally and watching all these refugees flood into Europe and into Italy on boats and drowning, I just, I just had to do something and it had to be something other than just giving money.

MG: That's Gioia in a video put out by the U.N. High Commissioner on Refugees, touting the benefits of Canada's private sponsorship program, where at least five people band together to sponsor a refugee family for one year. As private sponsors, Gioia and the others didn't just cover the family's costs, but offered friendship and support from greeting them at the airport to buying groceries and helping them learn English. Last week, though, Canada's Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, Marc Miller, announced that the federal government was stopping the program until the end of next year in order to deal with a large backlog. Over the past year, the Government has been reducing the number of newcomers admitted to Canada.

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MARC MILLER: It's part of the larger plan of making sure that the reductions make sense. And, and in this case, when it comes to the private sponsorships, there's an oversupply of folks out there. So, it's about being real with Canadians and making sure that when we make those dedicated commitments to people to resettle, fleeing war or oppression, that we're doing it in the right way and not entertaining false hope. So, that was, it's an unfortunate reality of the situation we're in.

MG: Natasha Friedus has sponsored multiple refugees over the last five years and she's with me in our studio in Toronto. John Joniad is the first person that Natasha sponsored. He's a member of the Rohingya minority in Myanmar who have faced decades of persecution and violence. And he is in our Ottawa studio. Good morning to you both.

NATASHA FRIEDUS: Good morning.

JOHN JONIAD: Good morning.

MG: John, as somebody who went through this program, tell me how this worked. You fled to Indonesia from your home in Myanmar. How did you end up in the private refugee sponsorship program in Canada?

JOHN JONIAD: Well, after leaving the country in 20--, somewhere around 2014, I was trying to go to Australia, but I couldn't make it. I was arrested and detained in Indonesia. And in Indonesia, I tried to, you know, to seek asylum and refuge and sort of fighting for my human rights to rebuild my life. But the situation was not very accommodating to refugees. My refugees are not welcome in the country and they were policies of Australia's deterrence, sort of, you know, influence in the country, in the regions. And refugees are kind of, you know, a trap in the, in these hopeless situations in limbo for more than a decade. Many refugees have given ups. And for me, was particularly difficult because I was speaking out against the dehumanised situations of refugees, say it was almost impossible for me to seek any support and help from the refugee system. So, that's where the, the private sponsorship came to save my life.

MG: You've said that it saved your life. You said that without the program, you don't know if you'd be alive today.

JOHN JONIAD: That's correct. Because, you know, as a Rohingyas, I first of all, I could not go back to my country. I don't have a country, per se, and, and the resettlement option to other countries, like I said, because Australia was influencing, they completely ban refugees' resettlement to any country. So, many refugees were given up on their lives and, and, you know, as suffering from mental health. So, I was on in these situations, living for almost seven years with no hope for resettlement. So, like I said, I was in a very, very, you know, sophisticated situation with my advocacy. So, that's where these Canadians came in to save my life.

MG: These Canadians, including Natasha. [JOHN JONIAD: Including Natasha]. Natasha, why did you want to get involved in this? Why did you want to be a private sponsor?

NATASHA FRIEDUS: Well, I had heard about the private sponsorship program, and it seemed like just an incredible way that we as private citizens could make a direct impact and help in this very tangible way somebody whose, whose life was in danger.

MG: A tangible way. I mean, we heard this from Gioia as well. People see a need, and there's a desire to do more than just give money. That's a big step to, to sponsor a family, to sponsor somebody. You are, you're responsible for them, literally for the course of a year. Why did you want to take that step?

NATASHA FRIEDUS: Well, there are multiple reasons. One is I'm Jewish, so I've always had a sense of being part of a people that was persecuted. There were people that helped my family back in the '40s who, when after they were detained, after the Holocaust. Second of all, it, it is a big step. But the, the risk of not taking that step is so extreme. So but okay, let's look at the worst-case scenario: Somebody comes here and you do something wrong, you fill out the paperwork wrong. They're in danger of their life. So, the consequences of not stepping up and doing something are quite larger. And then lastly, part of why, when we got connected to John, part of why we chose him because we thought in some way he might be kind of an easier person to sponsor. He already spoke English. He was outspoken as an advocate. We could tell that he was going to be fine as soon as he, you know, stepped foot on Canadian soil. So, it seemed almost like an entry way to, to trying out this approach of private sponsorship.

MG: And this is not a one and done scenario. I mean, you wrote a piece in The Globe and Mail about watching what a reunion between a man that you sponsored and his family. He's from Afghanistan.

NATASHA FRIEDUS: That's right.

MG: What was that like?

NATASHA FRIEDUS: It was just absolutely one of the most profound moments of my life.

MG: Your kind of hair on your arm stands out, thinking about it.

NATASHA FRIEDUS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So it was almost a year ago after John came here and, you know, was, it was such a pleasure and wonderful experience for all of us to get to know John. My family decided and our group decided we wanted to try sponsoring a family. Obviously, it's a lot more responsibility when there's kids involved, people maybe who don't speak English. So, we learned about a family where the dad and the mom and the girls had been separated for almost 10 years. And actually, this family is Hazara, which is a persecuted minority in Afghanistan. And so, when the dad had to leave to flee the Taliban, his wife was pregnant. So, he had been detained in Indonesia, like John. And so, he had never even met his younger daughter. He hadn't seen his family in 10 years. And so, the way sponsorship works is if you sponsor one person in the family, everybody gets to come. So, they were basically Abdullah came first and his family arrived about six weeks later. He had stayed with us during those six weeks, and then our whole group went and took him to the airport to meet his wife and the girls. And it was just absolutely [inaudible].

MG: You have a big smile as you tell the story.

NATASHA FRIEDUS: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, all of us were sobbing. There was not a dry eye in the place. You know, even the I.R.C.C. Guard who was helping, and the volunteers were crying. It was just really, it was really profound.

MG: John, what do you remember about meeting Natasha and her family and those first few weeks and months in, in your new country in Canada?

JOHN JONIAD: Well, when I first came to Canada, I knew that before even before I came to Canada, that I knew that I had a family waiting for me. And when I first came to Canada, I just felt like home, like the moment I stayed in Canada. I feel like this is my home because the way I was welcomed by Canadians, by Natasha and his family and others, I feel like I belong here and they make me feel that this is my country and they make me believe in the, in the goodness of the world. You know, for, for that, for like almost 10 years, seven years, I after fleeing the country, I thought that there is no goodness around the world. So, they helped me re-dream my future and help me believe that there is still goodness in the world and that I can, you know, dream for my better future.

MG: That's a really profound thing to say, partially that this is your home, but also that they were your family and that there's goodness in the world. I mean, tell me about that support that they gave you. What did that support that you got in those initial days mean to you?

JOHN JONIAD: Well, you know, when I first came to Canada, I knew nothing about Canada, even the history of Canada. I was in, I was in a very traumatic situations. They not only helped me to kind of overcome my trauma, but also help me really understand Canadian history and Canada and culture. And they provided me guidance to really, you know, not just settle in Canada, but thrive in Canada and through their support, I have broke, you know, a lot of good work in Canada. And now, I am, I have, I've been to in the Parliament. I work with the politicians and now, I'm doing my master's in the culture in universities and while also working on different kind of project, you know, raising awareness for, for human rights and advocating for refugees and while paying tax to the government, you know, in a paid job. So, these are all because of their contribution that I feel really Canada my home today.

MG: What does that like to hear?

NATASHA FRIEDUS: John has always been very expressive about his appreciation for, for having a sponsor him. And of course, it works both ways. We've learned so much through him as well. But I remember like the first, when John first came here, it was at the end of COVID, he had to be quarantined for a couple of weeks. As soon as he was released, we had all the sponsorship group over for dinner and John came over and, you know, he gave us this incredible speech about what it meant to be living in freedom. And, you know, I remember him just, you know, staring at all the kids and saying, 'Kids, you need to understand how lucky you are.'

MG: So, this is possible in part because of the work that you did and the work that your group did. But it's also possible because of this program, the private sponsorship program, which has existed since the '70s, we've seen it during with, with refugees from Vietnam, Syria and beyond. And now, the government says that, I mean, the word is paused, that that's going to stop this program at least until the end of next year. When you heard that, given what we have just heard, what went through your mind?

NATASHA FRIEDUS: Well, I was devastated. I mean, the first thing that went through my mind is this is not a pause, as you just said. My guess is it's a slow way of stopping the program.

MG: You think that they're winding it down?

NATASHA FRIEDUS: I do think, that's my great concern. And.

MG: And when you say you're devastated, why are you devastated?

NATASHA FRIEDUS: Well, this has been a lifeline for, you know, now over hundreds of thousands of people have been brought to Canada through this program over the past 50 years. This was the first program of its kind in the entire world. And it's been a model for other programs. And for me, it's part of what makes Canada such an incredible humanitarian leader. So, to pause that program is, you know, devastating symbolically, but it's also devastating to the hundreds of thousands of people who are hoping to come here, where Canada represents a possibility of, of freedom. And then, there's also, the other piece of it that is devastating is, is much more concrete, which is, it was done without any warning. So, there was just a notice on the website on I believe it was the 29th of November, which meant that all these families who were working, all these sponsorship groups that were working on applications that might have just submitted them, had they known, had no prior warnings.

MG: Marc Miller said that one of the reasons why this is being, in his words, paused is because of the backlog of those applications. What do you make of that reasoning?

NATASHA FRIEDUS: Well, there's definitely a backlog. I won't argue with that. But for me, the way to address the backlog is to bring on more people to address the backlog as opposed to pausing the program, right? So, if you, the thing about private sponsorship that is really different and unique is that the sponsorship groups do everything. Like, we raise the money, we fill out the applications, we pick up people at the airport, we help them get jobs, we help them find housing. Like, the, the burden on the government is like absolutely minute. And so, why would you want to pause a program that actually requires no funding from the government to the, to the point that within one year of refugees arriving, they're required to pay back the airfare that the government pays to bring them here?

MG: John, what do you think this pause signals for refugees in countries around the world who are waiting to come to this program? As Natasha said and suddenly learned that it's, you know, on, on ice right now, what do you think the message is to them?

JOHN JONIAD: I think from my advocacy perspective as a refugee advocate and a student doing study migration in the diaspora, I think what I've been learning is that the, the global South, you know, are becoming more deterrent to what refugees, and. Canada's refugees private sponsorship program has what is what Canada, you know, it's what made Canada really different from any other countries because it's not only sort of contribute to the global refugee crisis, but also allow the Canadian citizen to really be part of the solution, not part of the problem, which is what make Canada really interesting and different from many countries. And Canada is the only country that has this program that allows Canadian citizen to really make a difference to someone life like me. Like, if it wasn't for Canadian citizen, I would not be alive today. Honestly speaking, I would not be alive today. So, Canadians really give me a second chance in Canada. So, what I have been learned from, what I have learned from this experience of what's happening around the world is that so Canada is kind of been influenced by this deterrent policies that are being spread out across the world in the, you know, across the world to stop refugees coming to the global South seeking refuge. So, what they're doing right now is that they're kind of like converting this humanitarian policy into more of a border and security, you know, more border and security issues. And that's what's happening right now. It's not just the Canada, sort of the global South is kind of you know, it's kind of becoming that global trend with the global South becoming more deterrents. So for me, it's really inhumane. You know, as I said, describe it's not like a pause for one year, but the government is sort of planning to, you inform the public slowly and it just a pause, but it's not a pause. It's a well-planned trend that will, you know, stop refugee coming to Canada. So, this is really inhumane. And I think it's also sort of denied the individual right in Canada. It's a right of every Canadians. It's kind of like, they are taking away this right from individual Canadian and giving it to more, you know, bureaucratic authorities. So, which is just very undemocratic from my perspective as a human right advocate.

MG: John, I'm glad that you made it here. I'm really glad to speak with you this morning. Thank you very much. [JOHN JONIAD: You're welcome.] And, and Natasha, thank you.

NATASHA FRIEDUS: Thank you.

MG: Natasha Friedus is a private refugee sponsor and John Joniad is a refugee who came to Canada through the private refugee sponsorship program, was sponsored by Natasha.

MG: Ratna Omidvar has who spent much of her life advocating for immigrants and refugees, including until about a month ago, as an independent senator. Ratna, good morning to you.

RATNA OMIDVAR: Good morning, Matt.

MG: On a personal level, how did this hit you when you heard that the federal government was putting the brakes on this private refugee sponsorship program?

RATNA OMIDVAR: You know, it did fill me with a great deal of dismay because as your, as John and Natasha talked about their experiences, it took me back to my own experiences in 2016 when we pulled together a ragtag group of 20 Canadians to sponsor Syrian refugees, and we had exactly the same experience. Not only were the families rescued from insecurity and precarity, but provided a chance, but also the knock-on effects on Canadians on us were enormous. And so, I heard this announcement with a sinking heart. But I do want to inject some, some facts into the conversation, Matt. The private sponsorship program is not being stopped by the Government of Canada. I believe the government still wants to bring 23,000 private sponsors, refugee--, and refugees in 2024 and 2025 into Canada. They are taking a pause on new applications because there is a backlog of applications. That speaks to the popularity of the program.

MG: Marc Miller has...

RATNA OMIDVAR: 90 [inaudible], yeah.

MG: Well, Marc Miller has spoken about that, the Immigration Minister. We asked to talk to him. He wasn't available to speak with us this morning, but have a listen as to why he says, and why he uses that word, 'Pause' on the private refugee sponsorships until at least the end of next year.

SOUNDCLIP

MARC MILLER: The commitment's still there to work with people. I mean, there are things that we can plan for. And Canada always has to, have an open heart. But we also have to be realistic with Canadians in the amount of people that we can take in and properly serve with the resources that we have.

MG: So there's a few things in that, and it picks up on something that you said. What is, what's wrong with pausing a program that's backlogged? There's something like 90,000 private refugee applications that are being processed right now.

RATNA OMIDVAR: It makes good business sense. When the pipeline is clogged, you take a pause, you clean it up and before you start it flowing again. But we're not talking about business, Matt. We're talking about human lives who are stranded, who live in precarity, whose children may not be able to go to school. They may not get any health care. These are very, very difficult situations and a pause of a year. The, the implications of that one year for refugee families all over the world is, is significant. The Senate Human Rights Committee just put out a report that was tabled last week, saying that forced global displacement is a crisis and Canada should make that its top foreign policy priority and should increase the number of private sponsorships. I understand the minister's imperative to retool the immigration numbers writ large, but I so wish he had protected the refugee numbers because of the implications on the lives of people far away from us.

MG: The Minister said Canada always has to have an open heart. This comes just weeks after he announced that the number of permanent residents admitted to this country will be reduced by 20 per cent over the next few years. What do you make of that phrase, 'Canada has to have an open heart'? Do you think that this government is still committed to welcoming newcomers and welcoming refugees in particular?

RATNA OMIDVAR: I continue to believe that Canadians at large are still open to welcoming newcomers and in particular, refugees. Public opinion...

MG: Why do you believe that now in the conversations that are happening when it comes to their stresses on housing and on employment and others, and it seems like there's a change in that conversation around, around immigration in this country. So, why do you still believe that, that the Canadian public has an open heart?

RATNA OMIDVAR: I believe, first of all, that this whole conversation about housing and Canada being full is mis--, is, is finding a misplaced target on the most vulnerable people of the world, in this case, refugees. Those problems are problems of our own making, and it is a false equivalence to equate one with the other. Public opinion, Matt, is public opinion. It shifts and changes with time. I would like to see the same polls six months from now and what public opinion would say once we have, we have sort of shifted the ship a little. There is no doubt in my mind that the numbers of temporary residents far exceeded our capacity. And now that we have pulled back on them, hopefully we will come to calmer waters and Canadians will find their real soul again on issues of compassion and an open heart.

MG: How do you think we got here? I mean, the Trudeau government in part, was elected in 2015, while vocally supporting the arrival of refugees fleeing the war in Syria. There was that, that heartbreaking image of Alan Kurdi on the beach, that changed the conversation in this country in many ways. And to your point, the knock-off effect of that was that we saw strangers and friends and church groups and individuals and streets and buildings come together to try to figure out how to get people here and support people here. How did we get to, to where we are now, do you think?

RATNA OMIDVAR: Oh, this is a longer conversation than I can have on the radio with you. But I do think it started with COVID to some extent, where the government opened up temporary residence for workers and international foreign students to meet certain demands. Didn't, didn't think far ahead, didn't think about the core relationship with capacity. And I think it all went completely off the rails. Which doesn't mean we can't bring it back to the rails. I believe the political imperative is there. The government needs to do something. More importantly, it needs to be seen to do something. But I think that this particular announcement around the pause on taking in new applications is, is a misstep. In fact, you know, Natasha was, was right on. You can pause applications or you can increase resources. It's a small program. I mean, we only bring in, the government plans to bring in 58,000 refugees under different programs this year. 23,000 will be privately sponsored. That's not a large figure in the scheme of things. Let's remember we're a very large country with a very small population as well. So, I think this is something we could have carved out and we would have managed. And I certainly hope that this pause will not last a year, that the government will find the gumption and the guts and the resources to retool very quickly. And one of the reasons the backlog exists is because the requirements for private sponsorships have, have become increasingly more complex. We filled out a 60-page application in 2016. Thank God we had a lawyer on our team. In the meantime, community groups and sponsor groups are challenged with more and more and more and more paperwork, which takes longer time to review. I hope the government comes back to its senses. And after this pause, we will not only have an enhanced program, but a more responsive program.

MG: I have to let you go, but just very briefly, if, if what you're talking about doesn't come to pass and if I mean, Natasha is worried that the pause is not a pause, that this is a way to wind down this program, what do we as a country lose?

RATNA OMIDVAR: We lose a jewel in our crown. We have trumpeted ourselves the success of this program globally. We are actively engaged, even today, in replicating and helping countries like the U.S., the U.S., the U.K., Germany, Spain, Argentina develop their own versions of this program. I find it very hard to believe that we would walk away from, from this amazing Canadian nation-building innovation.

MG: Ratna, we'll leave it there. It's good to speak with you, as always. Thank you very much.

RATNA OMIDVAR: Thank you.

MG: Ratna Omidvar is a former independent senator from Ontario, now a public policy fellow at Toronto Metropolitan University. Were you, like many Canadians, involved in the private sponsorship program in this country? Perhaps you came to this country through the private sponsorship program. We would love to hear from you on what you have heard this morning. You can e-mail us: thecurrent@cbc.ca. This was a, Ratna called it a nation-building kind of exercise. It was also a way to meet your neighbours. And coming up after your regional update, we'll talk about whether you talk to your neighbours. What about knocking on their door to borrow butter? Or do you pretend that your neighbours aren't even there?

SOUNDCLIP

MARTY MURPHY: If the people wish to talk, I'll say hi. And sometimes, that's the extent of the conversation. Other times, [Music: Theme fading in] people want to prolong action. Sometimes, well sometimes, they prolong it by quite a bit.

MG: Turns out that community connectedness comes with major health benefits. Coming up, we will hear some ways that neighbours and neighbourhoods are coming together, including building a giant outdoor skating rink across a row of front yards in Winnipeg. It looks incredible. What does it do for the community? We'll find out coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio, and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

And importance of saying ‘hello’ to your neighbour

Guests: Troy Glover, Christy Hemmerling

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

SHIRLEY: I have friends. And the [inaudible]. We cook, and we share with one another. And I visit, sit with them and we talk and so on. It's very helpful because most of the time, I'm living alone. And I'm so, so lonely. I just want to get out and thank God I have friends that I can visit and sit for a while until I ready to go home.

MG: That's Shirley. She's a senior living in a bachelor apartment in a high rise tower in Toronto's Weston neighbourhood. She says knowing her neighbours is a lifeline from small day-to-day interactions to harder moments when she needs someone she can count on.

SOUNDCLIP

SHIRLEY: One of my [inaudible], sister. I remember one time I was ill and she was the first one I call and she was there for me, Pauline.

PAULINE: You can run out of sugar or salt. You know, it's good to knock your neighbour up, you know?

SHIRLEY: Like Sunday, I wind up on the end because in the end you know and I go in that [inaudible]. They're probably come down with two.

MG: Chances are you've been there: Looking for a cup of sugar, shovelling the walk for the house next door. You knock your neighbour up when you need something, as Pauline was saying. Neighbours can often come to the rescue. Research shows that knowing your neighbours can make a real difference to your health. Troy Glover is a professor of recreation and leisure studies at the University of Waterloo, also director of the Healthy Communities Research Network. Troy, good morning.

TROY GLOVER: Good morning.

MG: Why should people make an effort to know their neighbours?

TROY GLOVER: I think they should make the effort because the health benefits are just so consequential. As you indicated earlier there, we're living through what is really an epidemic of loneliness and social isolation. And I think that is hugely problematic to people's individual health, to our collective health as a society. And so, you know, I think we're very unaware of how important these connections are. I think at an intuitive level, we understand. But the mounting evidence that demonstrates its connection to our mortality, to our morbidity is just overwhelming. And I think if more people understood that, they'd understand how important it is for their own health to branch out and connect with others.

MG: How have you seen that evidence play out in your own life?

TROY GLOVER: In my own life, it's interesting because I'm recognising that researchers often are the worst at what they study. And I've recognised that, that over time, I've allowed my own social network to wither. And so, I've been making efforts recently to actually reach out to people, understanding how important it is to my overall health and well-being. So, I've been connecting with old friends. I've been connecting with neighbours. And I think those different types of relationships are very important to our overall health and well-being.

MG: I mean, we just heard that from Shirley, right? The, the, how, she said she was so, so lonely. But having people around her, having a space where she can be that she can hang out with people until she's ready to go home is a real lift for her.

TROY GLOVER: Absolutely. And I think that we need to recognise there are, there are different types of loneliness that people experience, and they point to different types of relationships that we need in our lives. So for instance, we need intimate relationships with, you know, close others, close friends, family members, intimate partners. We need relational intimacy. So by that, I mean with our acquaintances, our weak ties, people, you know, like co-workers or neighbours. And then also collectively, we need to connect to people who help us understand that we belong to a community larger than our small social circles.

MG: So, your research in part looks at how we go about creating conditions for this to happen. And this is through what you call activating neighbourhoods. And we're going to look at a few examples of this across the country. I want to go back to that neighbourhood in Toronto. In a cramped lobby of that apartment building in Weston, Christmas carols are playing, residents were meeting to make Christmas cards, eat samosas, and check in with each other. And Lise-Ann Helmut says that these sorts of events, she believes, capture the heart of her neighbourhood.

SOUNDCLIP

LISE-ANN HELMUT: I always say that Weston is very eclectic. I love the area because there's just so many mom and pop restaurants, stores. You walk, you know, up and down Weston Road. It takes me at least half an hour because I'm saying, 'Hey,' you know, you're saying hi to everyone. So, there's a real sense of community. And with all the different resources, everyone joins in to make this really big web. For me, it makes a complete difference knowing that someone's there for you.

MG: So Troy, how does this building in Weston play out as an example of what you call community activation?

TROY GLOVER: I think it's a classic example of where a group of people have really opened themselves up to creating these relationships. And often, it just starts with what are called nodding relationships. So, in our communities, there are people that we come across every day who are just known to us as a presence in our neighbourhood. These are invisible ties, people who we don't really think of, we don't know. We don't have any sort of relationship with them other than maybe smiling or nodding.

MG: So how is that? I mean, we all have those relationships. I walk the dog at night. I see the same people. I don't know who those people are, but you give them a nod, you smile and you continue on. How is that a relationship?

TROY GLOVER: It's what's called an invisible tie. And so, it's important in with respect to what I was referring to before about this idea of having a connection to a collectivity. You know, as we get to know other people or recognise other people, we acknowledge their presence. We humanise them and we become conscious of them, which means that our imagined communities expand.

MG: So that when I go to the store and I see the same person and I say hello to that same person and we chat about whatever we're chatting about, and then we move on. Part of that is about me understanding that I'm in, I don't live by myself, that I'm part of something larger.

TROY GLOVER: Exactly, exactly. Part of our neighbourhoods, part of our communities. These sorts of connections, often we focus so much on our intimate ties and maybe to a lesser extent, our acquaintances. But these sorts of invisible ties are actually quite important to feeling part of a community.

MG: Okay, so we want to go from Weston to Winnipeg. Christy Hemmerling lives in Winnipeg. Her neighbourhood has come together to, over the last couple of years, create this gigantic outdoor skating rink. It's not in the backyard, but it's out in the front. Christy, good morning.

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Aside from the glorious winter weather in Winnipeg, why did you decide to build a skating rink in your front yard?

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: Well, it's been an evolution over time. This is our seventh year, and the space just really was more welcoming out front. And so over time, as the neighbours grew and we developed this collective approach, it expanded from 1 or 2 houses all the way to the four houses across. It's about 160 feet long, and really joins our four houses together in an amazing way in the front yard.

MG: So, I don't know what I expected when I heard about this. And then, so I went and looked for photos. It's, I have to describe this thing because it's not the rink that I thought it was. It's huge.

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: It's huge. I know. I know. It's, it's really an amazing amount of effort from the neighbours to put that work in. But it's, it's essentially the huge sheet of ice and it's got lights, floodlights and Christmas lights on the top, little white lights.

MG: Because there's trees in the middle of it, too, right?

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: There's a 100-year-old elm that seems to be the most famous. That's part of the tree, and part of the rink. And there's an ice bar that's developed over the years, which is a real highlight, a slide. There's a firepit that we have going so that people are welcome to come and sit and chat. And there's curling rinks that we've developed over time. And just usually, just a bunch of kids out there is really what you'll notice.

MG: What is this about the Winnipeg Jets showing up?

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: Yes. Yes, they did. Yes. Mark Chipman, through a community outreach, asked some of the jets and Mark Shively and Josh Morrissey came over for a meet and greet on the rink. So, that was the highlight for all the kids and families.

MG: The fire's a big deal, too. I mean, tell me a little bit about how having this rink in the front yard not tucked away in the back behind a fence, but spread out across four houses. How has that changed your relationship with your neighbours in the winter?

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: It is amazing. I mean, we're, we're outside. The kids are outside a lot. Friends are over. People walking by with their dogs, or just walking by. And we always end up chatting. And having the fire going is just a way to say, 'You're welcome, we're here.' And it's just really allowed for our, our community, which is already quite a connected community. It's just another way to be outside in the winter and really embracing, embracing our time outside in Winnipeg.

MG: So what does it look like? I mean, on a Friday night when it's cold, what does it look like?

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: Well, I'll say, we've had some of our best New Year's Eves out there. But on a typical Friday, the lights are on, the fire is going, and there's at least probably 15 kids out there playing hockey or ringette. And it's just usually adults kind of walking around, chatting and yelling at people walking by to come on.

MG: Is that the deal? So, if somebody is, if somebody is walking by, I mean, you're open for business and they are going to get hollered at to come over?

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: Oh yeah, we're waving and we're hollering. We're, we're saying, come on over and have a seat by the fire. Yeah, it's a lively place. And speaking of, of community, it's, we feel really lucky and we know how lucky we are to, to have the opportunity to do it. And we're just amazed by especially having the kids outside. And, you know, often we're pulling them back inside because it's just such an opportunity for play and being together.

MG: Embrace Winter.

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: Yes. Yeah. And right now, it's a winter wonderland. We've got tons of snow. [MG: Amazing.] So, you're always welcome to come by, Matt, for a skate.

MG: Honestly, I saw the picture, and I thought, 'How can I get there?' And how could I get the suit? I'm a terrible skater, but I'm good by a fire. Christy, thank you very much.

CHRISTY HEMMERLING: Perfect. Thank you so much, Matt.

MG: Christy Hemmerling built a skating rink with our neighbours across the front yards of four homes on their street in Winnipeg.

MG: Troy Glover has been listening. Troy, what do you make of that and the way, I mean, part of this is about building the thing, but what? If you build it, they will come, right? People will show up.

TROY GLOVER: I, this is an excellent example of the type of things that I'm trying to promote in terms of activating your neighbourhoods. You know, I have so many thoughts. The first thing that comes to mind is Christy was mentioning how lucky she was to live in a community like hers. And I think that's, that's one thought. But I think she and her neighbours deserve a lot of credit for thinking of community as a verb as opposed to a noun. You know, it is a place that we live, but we also can take actions to activate community. And I mean, clearly her neighbourhood has done that.

MG: I mean, part of that is about finding the space too, right? That this is, this is a communal space. It's not it's not in the backyard tucked away where you have to knock on somebody's store and say, 'Can we come to your rink?' and maybe they're there, maybe that this is out front and it's kind of open for business.

TROY GLOVER: Exactly. And I think what's important about that is it's an invitation to others to participate. We often need cues or nudges to feel like we can be part of something. And I think that when you put something in your front yard, it is a community. It's communicating to others that, you know, you're welcome to come in and be part of it.

MG: What are the other kind of spaces that people could I mean, if they don't have four front yards that they can stitch together, that they could perhaps activate and turn into a neighbourhood meeting space?

TROY GLOVER: I think the point is, is that people need to think creatively about the spaces around them. We have so many mundane spaces in our cities, in our towns that could easily be activated. I'm thinking, for instance, as a quick example, in Vancouver, there's an ugly alleyway that I guess local business owners appropriated and painted pink and put up a basketball net and called it renamed the Alley, Alley Oop. And the idea being like, you know, to encourage people to come and use that alley space prior to that, there would be no interest in doing so. There was nothing to nudge people to use it. So, you know, there's, there's a, an architectural professor named Patricia Ulbrich who talks about fourth spaces or fourth places, rather. And the idea there is that when we think of first places, we're thinking about our homes. Second places, we're thinking about our work or school. Third places are places of community, so community centres, libraries, parks, that sort of thing. But she's drawing our attention to fourth places. These are the places between that we often neglect. We don't think about as being spaces that could be activated. And so, you know, you were mentioning earlier about an apartment where people are using the hallways. You know, I mentioned an alleyway. You know, we don't think about front yards as, as spaces to, you know, activate and encourage community to be part of because we think of it as a private space. But the more we reimagine the spaces around us, the more we can be creative and think of ways that we can activate them.

MG: Reimagining it again, back to what we were saying earlier, for the purpose of understanding that this is actually going to make you feel better, that this is going to improve your health.

TROY GLOVER: Absolutely. The more that we can connect with other people, you know, the more we are going to be happier and healthier. And if you look at just recently in 2023, Waldinger and Schultz, two Harvard professors, published a book called The Good Life. And in it, they outlined the findings from an 83-year-long longitudinal study on adult development and the number one finding in following all these individuals over their lifespan to determine what was that major determinant in terms of their health and well-being, it was cultivating warm relationships of all kinds.

MG: So in Atlantic Canada, rural Nova Scotia in particular, the community of New Ross has another way to connect with their neighbours. And this is something called Ruby's Trail, which picks up a lot on what you were talking about. After losing his granddaughter when she was just eight months old, Marty Murphy felt the support that a neighbourhood could provide firsthand. They pitched in to help him through this, and as a thank you for helping him through this time, he decided to open up his Christmas tree farm to the community and carved this trail system through the farm for people to enjoy. He took us on his trail overlooking New Ross, which at this time of the year, it's got little churches and there's lots of snow and barns. Kind of looks like a Christmas card.

SOUNDCLIP

MARTY MURPHY: I like to work where the trees are near the trail, and so that way I can see the people. So just seeing them is very gratifying. But especially when I'm really near the trail and get a chance, if the people wish to talk, I'll say hi. And sometimes that's the extent of the conversation. Other times, people want to prolong it. And sometimes, well, sometimes they prolong by quite a bit. And I, and so what's more important? My work at the trees or make it somebody's day. It's more important to make somebody's day because they also make my day. And just to have somebody come along in your workplace and, and say nice things? Well, what could be more uplifting? So, we're just going to go off the main trail. Oh, yes. That's something else. We can't wait to show you. Now, here's something here. Again, the sense of community. People are so attached to this place, this [inaudible] family. They donated two benches. Both of these brothers are now deceased, so they paid to have these benches here in memory of Glenn Vino and Ian. So, we decided to put them side by side. We have a little Christmas tree between them. Ian's came first and we decided we would point the bench in the direction of where Ian used to live. He used to live up there to the north, so we pointed it to the North Fork. It's hard work, but with all these good things, you don't mind the hard work. I might start minding it more now that I'm turning 65, but I'll keep at it.

MG: Troy, what do you make of what Marty's doing here?

TROY GLOVER: Again, a great example of just bottom-up placemaking. So, the idea here being that people are actually intentionally trying to change their spaces to encourage people to connect socially, I think that's amazing.

MG: Is that more difficult to do? I mean, it sounds obvious, but more complicated, certainly in a rural community like New Ross as opposed to an urban centre where sure, there are alleyways cutting through the back of people's houses and you can figure out a way to, to activate those alleyways or band together with your neighbours who are close by and build a skating rink.

TROY GLOVER: I think it's just a matter of creativity and imagination. I think, you know, the example that you just presented, I think, was an excellent one. I think rural communities, you know, you used the example of Winnipeg in the ice rink. I mean, that could easily be done in a rural community as well. So, I think there's just plenty of ways. It's just the limitations are, are our imaginations, really.

MG: I mean, these are nice stories, but I think there is a constituency listening contingent of the population who would say, you know what? They don't feel that connection to their neighbours. Maybe they don't want to know their neighbours, but they actually don't feel like they have. They live here, the people who live next to them, and that's that. They have no connection. They're not going to go and knock on their door and borrow a stick of butter from them because they don't know what would happen. They're not going to nod at somebody on the street because they don't know whether that would be taken in in an unusual way, whether people would be threatened by that. What are the obstacles to creating healthy neighbourhoods and to getting people to think outside of themselves for whatever reason?

TROY GLOVER: I think the big obstacle is our commu--, our, our community norms. And I think that we have a norm of what's called civil inattention. Civil inattention is the idea that we all occupy, occupy the same spaces, and we acknowledge that people are in them, but we don't give those other people any sort of attention. And so in many ways, we're what's called co-present. So we're physically proximate, we're in close proximity to them, but we're socially distant. And I think that we need to get beyond that. I think that more and more that people understand the health benefits of social connection, they'll come to appreciate that even just nodding or smiling or saying hi to somebody is a gateway to strengthening relationships in your life.

MG: I mean, there are a couple of things that cut us off from that. One is technology. You can put in your noise cancelling headphones and not hear anybody.

TROY GLOVER: Definitely. And I think that we need to recognise the consequences of those types of technologies, and make a conscious effort to actually engage in social connectivity. And in fact, you know, one of the terms that's emerging because of the power of social connections, this idea of we need to engage in social fitness, not unlike physical fitness. We need to make time for it and actually make the effort to do it.

MG: How do you go about doing that without getting into a scrap about politics? I mean, people are polarised these days and what you believe may not be what your neighbour believes. And the concern might be, if I start talking to this person, we're going to get into something that we don't want to talk about. So, it's easier just not to talk to them.

TROY GLOVER: I think the problem there is that we often, you know, as a polarised society, we characterise the other side in a certain way and just assume that that sort of interaction is going to go in a negative way. But the more we interact with others, the more we humanise them, and the more we start to appreciate that even though we do have different beliefs, we can coexist and we can actually flourish together.

MG: And so give us some final advice. If somebody wants to make an effort, particularly over the holiday season, to get to know their neighbours. I don't know if they're going to build the skating rink or the trail, but if they want to try to figure out how to strengthen those ties, what should they do?

TROY GLOVER: My simple advice to everybody is talk to everybody. Acknowledge everybody. Smile at people as you walk by. There is something called social contagion. And the idea of you being, having a positive interaction or encounter with another, even if that person's a stranger, can actually result in it being paid forward to others. And over time, it just makes for a much more pleasant, everyday life for individuals and can lead to more strengthening of relationships where you move from those invisible ties to being recognised and recognising others and, you know, having those stronger relationships that actually matter in your life.

MG: Good advice. Troy, thank you very much.

TROY GLOVER: Thank you.

This is really interesting. Troy Glover is a professor of recreation and Leisure studies at the University of Waterloo. He specialises in neighbourhoods.

MG: One of the neat things about having conversations like this is that you learn things about the country that perhaps you didn't know about. I didn't know about that giant rink in Winnipeg until I heard about it. Now, I want to go there. I didn't know about the trail in Ross in Nova Scotia, and that sounds fascinating as well. What is it that makes your neighbourhood special? Maybe there's a street party that you hold every year. Maybe you rallied around a neighbour in need. Maybe you built something that brings people together. And it actually is an activation, as Troy was saying in your community. What is it that you love about your neighbourhood, and what is it about your neighbourhood that actually brings people together and let us know? And we will feature some of your stories on the program. We used to have a thing on our street where the deal was if you were on your front porch, you're open for business. And so if you're sitting there, chances are somebody might come over and say hello, who lives on the street. If you want to be by yourself, you hang out in the backyard. But if you're on the front porch, maybe you know you're going to get a chat or a drink or what have you. What happens on your block or in your building or in your community that you love that brings people together? Email us: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Or even better, send us a voice memo. Let us know what it's like in your community, and what brings people together. You can record it on your phone. Email it to us again: thecurrent@cbc.ca. That is The Current for this Tuesday, the 10th of December. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. And if you haven't, here's a bit of word of advice for this Tuesday. Say hello to your neighbour. This is Madness, and Our House. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. I'll see you tomorrow.

[Music: Our House by Madness]

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Tuesday, December 10, 2024 Full Transcript

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