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The Current Transcript for September 19, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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ROXANA SPICER: Putting the final period to the final sentence on the final paragraph of this story has liberated me. I feel free for the first time of my mother's history.

MATT GALLOWAY: Growing up, Roxana Spicer idolized her mother, a tough Russian immigrant to Saskatchewan, who had a mysterious past that involved being captured by the Nazis in Ukraine. As it turns out, she only knew sketches of the full story, not even her mother's real name. And filling in the blanks would become the Canadian journalist's obsession. In 30 minutes, Roxana Spicer on digging up family secrets that her mother wanted to stay buried in a story that was even more complicated than she imagined. Also this morning:

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SPEAKER: It's getting worse for women and girls when we talk about their rights and their freedom. The more you're trying to go forward and then they take another step backward.

MG: It has been more than 20 years since the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. Plans are in the works for U.S. forces to finally leave that country. A democratic government is in place and leaders say the threat from ISIS has receded. In an hour, three Iraqis on what life in their country is like in 2024, and why for a younger generation, hope in what should be a hopeful moment is hard to find. We begin with a painful disease and one woman's decision to apply for medical assistance in dying in the face of treatment that is out of her reach. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Denied out-of-province care, this N.S. woman asks for MAID

Guests: Angela MacIvor

MG: Jennifer Brady has lymphedema. It's a condition that causes fluid build-up and a painful swelling in her legs. It is so debilitating that the Halifax woman spends at least five hours a day inside an inflatable suit to manage her pain.

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JENNIFER BRADY: They first calibrate. So, they take a little while to blow up-- or a couple minutes to blow up all the way.

MG: That's Jennifer getting into and zipping up the lympha press, which covers her from her chest to her toes.

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JENNIFER BRADY: So, inside the pants, there's a series of sort of inflatable balloons. As they inflate, what they're doing is they're sort of massaging or pushing the fluid out of my legs. It reduces the amount of swelling that I get in the day. So, I use the lympha press usually three times a day for about an hour and a half to two hours each time that I get in it.

MG: The relief that Jennifer gets from the device is temporary. Surgery that could improve her quality of life isn't available in Nova Scotia, but after three years of fighting to get out of province care, she says she is close to giving up. Not just on the fight, but on living with her condition. In June, Jennifer Brady, a 46 year old mother of two, applied for medical assistance in dying. CBC Halifax reporter Angela MacIvor is here to tell us more about the story. Angela, good morning.

ANGELA MCIVER: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Before we get into the MAID application, just tell us a bit more about Jennifer Brady and the condition that she lives with.

ANGELA MCIVER: Yeah. So like you said, she's 46 years old. She's a single mother and her kids are nine and 13. She's a dietician. And right now she's on medical leave from her job as a university professor. And Matt, this all started in May of 2019. That's when she had a radical hysterectomy to treat cervical cancer. Her lymph nodes had been removed in that surgery. And soon after, she had extreme swelling in her legs and was diagnosed with lymphedema. It's a fairly common condition. More than a million people have it in Canada. In many cases, it's caused by obesity, but she has what's called secondary lymphedema caused by cancer. So, she has an increased risk of getting cellulitis, a skin infection and blood infections. And she has been hospitalized several times with both of those conditions.

MG: And so, we heard her talk about that device that she uses and her getting into this device. How is this disease impacting her life?

ANGELA MCIVER: Yeah. So, on the scale, her case would be considered moderate to severe. And Matt, I just want to give you a sense, I went to her house a couple of weeks ago and it was a hot afternoon. And, you know, she was wearing two layers of the highest-grade compression socks. She wears compression garments 24 hours a day. And she took them off briefly to show her legs, and I could see immediately that her left leg was inflating before [MG: Oh, wow.] my eyes. Yeah, so she says, though, that it goes beyond just physical discomfort.

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JENNIFER BRADY: I have to budget the time that I'm on my feet every day and the amount of time I can be on my feet essentially allows me just to get the basics done. Making dinner for my kids, trying to clean my house every once in a while, even sort of tasks of daily living sort of thing. It greatly impacts, yeah, my kids. That's probably one of the hardest parts is just watching my kids watch me have to go through this and the pain that it causes and my inability to do things and then the burden and responsibility that falls to them.

MG: So, that's what she's living through today. Take us back to when this fight with the province began.

ANGELA MCIVER: Yeah. So, following her hysterectomy in 2019, she was referred to the Lymphoedema Clinic in Halifax, and they did things like measure her legs and recommend different grades of compression socks. But she says there were no other treatments being offered in Nova Scotia. She found out that Quebec, Ontario and B.C. all have surgical programs. So, she decided to apply for out of province coverage through the Medical Services Insurance or MSI program. And I'll let her explain what happens next.

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JENNIFER BRADY: I was actually a good candidate for surgery because I'm, you know, relatively young and quite healthy. Definitely, up until that point. I was a lot healthier then that I am now. However, COVID and the sort of backlogs that COVID caused in hospitals meant that the hospital admin decided that they weren't going to take any out of province residents. So, I wasn't then at that point able to get surgery in Montreal. Regardless of that, though, once I got back from Montreal, MSI at that point told me that they wouldn't cover the costs of my travel to Montreal and they wouldn't cover surgery because what I actually had to send them was a Nova Scotia licensed specialists referral.

MG: So, she needed somebody in Nova Scotia to give her that referral to sign off on that. Why didn't she just get the referral?

ANGELA MCIVER: This is the crux of this whole case. There is not a single Nova Scotia physician who specializes in lymphedema. So, no one could have written her that referral, it turns out. But both her application and appeal were rejected because she didn't meet that bar. And so, when that happened, she just pressed on, thinking, you know, she'd pay for surgery herself and fight to get reimbursed later. So, in June of 2022, she went to Japan and got the surgery.

MG: She went to Japan?

ANGELA MCIVER: Yeah. So, one of the surgeries she was advised to get by the surgeon in Montreal is a procedure called lympha venous anastomosis, or LVA surgery. And it's an emerging field. But, Matt, it is on Nova Scotia's insured services list. And it's a surgery that's available here in Canada, in other provinces and other countries. So, she looked into the States and it was going to cost 260,000 U.S.. And the cost in Japan was 60,000. And so what she ended up doing is she remortgaged her house to pay for that. [MG: Oh, wow.] Yeah. And I asked the surgeon she consulted with in Montreal about why it's so hard to access here in Canada, COVID backlogs aside, because that was the issue at the time. This is Dr. Joshua Vorstenbosch. He's a plastic surgeon at Royal Victoria Hospital.

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DR. JOSHUA VORSTENBOSCH: It's primarily plastic surgeons who are performing these surgeries. There's only a handful of centres across the country who are offering lymphatic surgery. And from the colleagues I'm speaking to from across the country, it's a pretty similar situation. The waitlists are so long for patients within their own city or province or health network. It really is a challenge to offer these services to patients from provinces where it's not necessarily available. Perhaps, you know, this is something we could encourage or advocate our health care systems to, or health care insurers to collaborate to find some sort of interprovincial agreement so that we can provide these patients with the care they need from other provinces.

MG: So, in the face of that, she goes to Japan. She pays $60,000. Remortgages her house, as you said. Did the province pay Jennifer Brady back for the surgery she ended up getting there?

ANGELA MCIVER: No, it said she was advised not to seek treatment without prior approval. So, the claim was rejected. And she told me the whole process has been utterly demoralizing. Those are her words.

MG: And so, applying for a medically assisted death, as you can imagine for anything, is a really drastic step. As you said, she's young. She has two young children. What was it that led her to that decision?

ANGELA MCIVER: Yeah. So she told me, you know, after getting through cancer, she's been struggling with this condition that isn't getting any better. Her surgery in Japan did help one of her legs, but the other leg has gotten worse. And so, she's been putting her energy into this fight with the province. And she says her mental health has taken a big hit. I'll add just a bit of warning here for listeners that the comments that we're about to hear are pretty raw and mention suicide.

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JENNIFER BRADY: So, I used to run religiously every day. I used to love cooking, standing at the stove and cooking for my kids or cooking for friends and family. I can't do that anymore. I love to garden. I've got a vegetable garden at the back, which is all weeds now because I can't be on my feet. Also, the time that I have to spend in my therapy machine means that a lot of the things I used to enjoy are essentially cut out of my life, including work. You know, I love my work. My work is a really huge part of who I am and what's important to me. I would have considered myself as a pretty positive, happy person. A really resilient person, as well. But I-- yeah, I mean, I'm not doing well mentally, I guess I would say. And one of the added struggles is that my health care providers tried putting me on antidepressants, which I need to sort of get through the day, get out of bed some days. But I can't take antidepressants because antidepressants cause swelling. So, I essentially have untreated depression. You know, as it does for anybody, hugely impacts your day to day, your... yeah, your desire to live, even.

MG: I mean, that's heartbreaking. If you listen to her and you hear her voice, all of the things that she loves have been stripped out of her life. [ANGELA: Yeah.] And so, as I said, applying for MAID is a huge step. And you might imagine that people would ask if by putting that application in, there is pressure on the government to come up with an alternative. To figure out a way such that she can live her life in some degree that gives her all the things that life is supposed to give you in terms of joy and a sense of accomplishment, but also just not living with pain. What's your sense of that? Is this about applying pressure to the government?

ANGELA MCIVER: Yeah. So, I've had a few people ask me that question, and since I would really have no way of knowing what's going on in her head, I got in touch with her again after our initial interview and I asked, you know, if applying for MAID is her way of getting the government's attention. And here's what she said.

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JENNIFER BRADY: Yeah, it's a good question. I totally understand it. So, it's hard to answer. I want to say that, yeah, it was all that, but the truth is that it wasn't. You know, like I don't really want that to be true. You know what I mean? And I'm usually an incredibly strong person and this has absolutely broken me. So, I was in June so close to killing myself. I really... it was really scary. And the only thing keeping me here was my kids. And, you know, at some point that's not enough when I can't even take care of them.

ANGELA MCIVER: So, Matt, you heard her there say how much she was struggling in June. That's when she applied for MAID and that she almost wishes this was a means of drawing attention to her case but she says it's not.

MG: It sounds like she's, I mean, it's broken her. [ANGELA: Yeah.] In a way.

ANGELA MCIVER: Yeah. And so, in doing this story, I actually learned that the emotional toll of this condition is not uncommon. I spoke to Dr. Anna Towers. She's a director of the Lymphedema program at McGill University Health Centre in Montreal. She's also a palliative care doctor. And when asked if she was surprised to hear a lymphedema patient would resort to asking for MAID, here's what she said.

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DR. ANNA TOWERS: I'm not surprised at all that some people would be desperate enough to say that it's too hard for them to be living with this condition. We've done research on the psychosocial impact of cancer related lymphedema. If you can imagine their treatment is over, they're told they're in remission, and then they're told that they have this condition that is lifelong, that needs to be controlled with compression and the treatments that they need are mostly not covered by Medicare. And it has an impact on their work. The other thing they report is their frustration and anger, lack of recognition by the medical profession. Arguably, it's one of the most misunderstood or unknown conditions. What patients would like to see is this condition recognized as requiring care, just as any medical condition requires care. So, if you compare it to diabetes, for example, which is another chronic condition, well, we have screening for it. We have blood tests, we diagnose it early, we start treatment early. We educate people about what they need to do in terms of lifestyle, and we support them throughout their life. And the result is we prevent complications. None of that exists with lymphedema.

ANGELA MCIVER: So, Matt, the lack of expertise in the medical field is a huge challenge. And as I mentioned, Jennifer Brady couldn't get a referral because of that. But even before that stage, Dr. Towers said people don't get diagnosed early enough and that makes the condition even worse. She said if just one per cent of cancer care budgets went to rehabilitation for lymphedema, it would do a lot to support the well-being of patients like Jennifer Brady.

MG: Where does this application for MAID stand now, and how likely is it that she would be approved for medical assistance in dying?

ANGELA MCIVER: So, it's still very much in the initial stages. She does meet all of their criteria for medically assisted death, except for one: that the medical condition underlying her request is irremediable. And that's a big hurdle. As we've outlined, there are treatments available, just not in Nova Scotia. So, her application hasn't moved forward for approval, but it did catch the attention of the MAID clinical lead for Nova Scotia, Dr. Gord Gubitz. He wrote a letter to the special adviser to the minister of health and wellness, and Jennifer Brady shared that letter with me. It reads in part, "I have reviewed dozens of atypical MAID requests, but I have never found myself in the position of writing a letter such as this. In my experience, people do not request MAID unless their life circumstances have become so dire that it is the only option. To do so when one is only 46 years old, otherwise healthy and has two children at home is almost unthinkable." And he said, "There are clear options for care that have been identified and should be explored by the Department of Health." And he writes, "Your office can make this happen."

MG: Because ultimately, again, this goes back to that fact that she couldn't get that referral, right?

ANGELA MCIVER: Yeah, that's right. That's what it comes down to. And the fact that she didn't get prior approval for that surgery in Japan.

MG: So, whether or not this was her intention-- and again, this is a question that you can imagine people asking. Somebody has, in fact, taken up her case. What's the Department of Health saying now? Has it responded to that letter?

ANGELA MCIVER: So, I asked for a comment on the MAID application specifically, and I did not receive a response. Nothing back. We did ask the minister directly yesterday about this case at Province House. She would not speak to it directly, citing privacy and the fact she doesn't know the details. But Matt, one thing that has quietly happened along the way here is the province amended the legislation in respect to out-of-province and out-of-country care. And as of 2023, it now allows the discretion from the minister on the specialist referrals, like the one Jennifer was told she needed. So, in some cases, a doctor outside of Nova Scotia could now refer a patient if the minister gives that special permission. However, Jennifer Brady has asked and the legislation is not retroactive, so it doesn't apply to her.

MG: So, how is she doing now? I mean, does she have-- given what she's living through, and we heard that in her voice-- are there other avenues that she has to appeal?

ANGELA MCIVER: Yeah. So, Jennifer did file a judicial review of the previous denials for coverage, and that started back in 2022. Final arguments were made in March of this year, but there's been no decision yet. And she's anxious to get that ruling because it will dictate the steps going forward. Especially because earlier this month she applied again for out of province surgery on her other leg that has gotten worse. And just yesterday, she found out that she's been denied again.

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JENNIFER BRADY: So, it's really difficult to be in that space of trying to remain hopeful and keep fighting for the care that I need, but also not get so hopeful that every defeat or every frustration or barriers undoes you. So, yes, the judicial review, if that sides in my favour, that would be huge for me. It would mean that one, the fight that I've had hasn't been for nothing. And it would also pave a way forward for me to potentially get reimbursed. You know, that's important to me financially. Again, as a single parent, I just simply can't afford that kind of medical expense. But because I still need treatment, I still need further surgery, hopefully, as well, I'd be able to access further treatment.

ANGELA MCIVER: So Matt, she's not without hope. But keep in mind, even if the judge decides in her favour, he can't force the Department of Health to reverse its decision or reimburse her. Only strongly advise one way or the other. So, a lot still hangs in the balance for her.

MG: This is quite a story. Angela, thank you very much for talking to us.

ANGELA MCIVER: You're welcome.

MG: Angela McIver is a CBC reporter. She's based in Halifax. Just before your CBC News, I have time to tell you about something coming up on the program tomorrow. Do you use Airtags to track your luggage when you're travelling? They're not just for luggage anymore. Increasingly, parents are keeping tabs on their kids with technology and whether it's tucking an airtag into the kid's backpack or tracking their location on a phone, parents are increasingly surveilling their children. There's even an app that allows you to see how fast your teen is driving and what the battery percentage on their phone is. We will hear tomorrow from experts who are concerned that this constant monitoring erodes trust between parents and kids. We'll also hear from parents who say that monitoring their children isn't all about trust, it's about keeping them safe.

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SPEAKER: We use the apple airtag that goes in her backpack, her school bag. It sort of gives me a bit of peace of mind. It's not something I actively monitor, but if I need to be able to find her or her stuff, it's there. So, it's just a peace of mind just in case. I think that she gets a lot more freedom because I don't have to have eyes on her. Like, if she's off playing on a field trip, I don't worry so much. Having these kinds of tools at our fingertips is a great thing.

SPEAKER TWO: I completely trust my child. I think open communication with them is the best way to do it. In this world, in this society alone, we never know what's going to happen. And I like knowing that in the event of an emergency, I can go and help.

MG: We'll also hear from a university student who is fed up with his parents constant tracking while he was in university in a different city and drew a line. The complicated reality of surveillance parenting, tomorrow on The Current. Your CBC News is up next. And then:

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ROXANA SPICER: She looked at me and she said, Your mother had a tattoo? A real tattoo? I said, Yeah. A number tattoo? Yeah. She said, That means only one thing. That meant that she was in Auschwitz.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Growing up, the journalist Roxana Spicer had a very fractured view of who her mother was and what happened to her during the Second World War. Roxana has spent decades uncovering a story that her mother never wanted told. The result is a fascinating new book. It's called The Traitor’s Daughter. Roxana Spicer will tell us that story and the hunt for the real details coming up in about six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

[Music: Fades up]

Roxana Spicer uncovers her mother’s secret stories of war

Guests: Roxana Spicer

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Growing up, Roxana Spicer would come downstairs at midnight after the rest of her family had gone to bed and sit with her mother, Agnes, listening to music. They lived in rural Saskatchewan. Her mother was originally from Russia, and in those late-night chats, Roxana heard a little bit about the life her mother had led in communist Russia and during the Second World War. She knew that her mother had been captured by the Nazis in Ukraine, but those childhood conversations were just fragments, snapshots. And so, as an adult and as a journalist, Roxana Spicer spent decades trying to fill in the gaps, even as her mother only reluctantly, very reluctantly, agreed to talk. Here's a bit of what happened during their first recorded conversation in 2001. And a heads up, her mother uses a bit of explicit language.

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ROXANA SPICER: Mom, I just want to ask you something.

AGNES SPICER: Yes?

ROXANA SPICER: Mom, you know, when I was in Calgary, you said that you were Babi Yar.

AGNES SPICER: Yes.

ROXANA SPICER: What were you doing there?

AGNES SPICER: In the camp...

ROXANA SPICER: Well, how did you get there?

ROXANA SPICER: [unclear] that's where we'd been grabbed by termites. The Russian prison so-called camp been in open field next to the ravine that they call today fucking Babi Yar.

MG: Babi Yar, the sight of one of the single worst mass killings of Jews during the war. Agnes's thousand days of wartime captivity began near that place and in that moment. And to tell the rest of her mother's story, Roxana Spicer visited Germany and Russia, talked to friends and relatives, combed through Nazi documents and wrestled with secrets that Agnes insisted should never be uncovered. It's all gathered together in Roxana's new book called The Traitors Daughter. Roxana Spicer joins me in studio. Roxana, good morning.

ROXANA SPICER: Good morning. I'm delighted to be here.

MG: I'm really glad to have you here. This is some story. As a kid when you were growing up in Saskatchewan, what did your mother mean to you?

ROXANA SPICER: My mother was my hero. She was like a comic book superhero. I never met anyone like her since. And she continues to be a hero in my imagination. As you just heard, I had an opportunity to interview her when I was an adult. But when I was a kid growing up in Saskatchewan, the only insight that I had into my mother's past was on those rare nights when she would have a glass of-- a black Russian or a pack of cigarettes, and she'd be sitting there listening to the sounds of the Russian Red Army Choir, and that would be evoking memories for her. And she would talk. But as you heard, in very, very small fragments. So, I had a very fractured view of who she was. But whoever she was, she was definitely an object of great curiosity in our little village. People, I heard rumours as a youngster that she had this incredible skill that she could take a handful of kitchen knives and throw them against a wall in a perfect pattern around a frying pan that would be hanging on the wall. So. All of this added to my curiosity about mom and...

MG: The story about her carrying like, a giant bag of potatoes, wearing high heels or something like that?

ROXANA SPICER: Oh yeah. I mean, she was such a, she was a small woman. Like five feet tall, but she was powerful physically and psychologically. Yeah, she was a force of nature.

MG: When did you decide as an adult, I mean, having had those late night shots at the edge of the bed or what have you, when did you decide that you needed to find out more about her?

ROXANA SPICER: That desire to know more about my mother's wartime story never left me from the time that I was a child. But I wasn't-- the first time I really decided that I would do an investigation, that I would make my first tentative steps into her story as a journalist, I took a secret trip. I got on an airplane while she was still alive in the mid 1980s, and I flew to Germany and I decided that I wanted to go to the one place, the one town that she had mentioned by name in Germany. Bad Salzuflen. It was a spa town. It was spelled exactly the way it sounded, so it was easy for me to find. And similarly, she only ever mentioned one other German by name besides, if I may use her language again, and you know the sensitive listeners, please, you know, cover your ears-- besides that prick Hitler. And that was the an elderly German farmer by the name of Carl Volland. And because his name was also spelt the same way as it sounds, I was able to go back in the mid 1980s and make my first foray into discovering an eyewitness to her story, and that was the grandson of Carl Volland.

MG: I mean, there were all these little clues that she would drop in that you would pick up about her life. Right? Even in those conversations. And you say that in some ways, I mean, she is the reason that you became a journalist.

ROXANA SPICER: Yeah. I think that when you grow up with a mother whose whole background is secret and that there's something dark, that you don't understand, it it becomes a kind of obsession. And for me, it was an obsession because for me not knowing her past was, it was like a wall that kept me from her, that denied me intimacy with my mother. And I just wanted to share a quote with you, if I may, for my twin brother of Victor. And in this 15 seconds, he expressed, for me why I had to write the book in a way that I struggled for a whole lifetime. I'm just going to read it. He wrote this to me in the days after our mother had died in 2006. "I have been to hell and back about mom. Her history, her losses, our losses, not telling or knowing or remembering Mom's history is, in a way like shutting a door to knowing her and the intimacy we never had." My book is my lifetime effort to recover that lost intimacy, not just for me as the daughter, but for my two brothers. My twin brother Victor, and my older brother, Harold.

MG: When you launched into this, I mean, I said in the introduction that your mother had been captured by the Nazis in Ukraine. What did you know about what happened to her during the war?

ROXANA SPICER: My mother, the few times that she talked about it, painted a very sanitized version of her story. So Victor, Harold and I grew up with the idea that as soon as she got captured, the Germans took her to Germany, where she then spent the duration of the war working on a farm, riding a cow that she called Emma and working in the fields. So, it was pretty benign and it was a pretty safe story.

MG: You mentioned the trip to that town in Germany. When you went there, this is the place where she said she'd been a slave after her capture by the Nazis. What did you find out in that town?

ROXANA SPICER: The first time I went, in the mid 1980s, I got a bit of a shock. Here I had hired this German speaking newspaper reporter. Really smart, young guy. There I was sitting in the kitchen of an older gentleman who said he was the grandson of Carl Volland. And there he said to me, I remember your mother. I remember Agnes. He described her physically. And then he really caught me off guard. He said, Oh yeah. She lived up on the third floor. She had her own room in the house and, yeah. And she worked on the farm. And so, he too was painting a very sanitized version. And that it wasn't until 30 years later that I realized some of the elements that story were true and were, that was a big turn at the end of the war where Mom was no longer trying to escape from Nazis, but now she was being pursued by her own countrymen. These dark figures that-- these KGB agents that Stalin dispatched after the war to round up all of the former slave labourers and POWs who had somehow managed to survive the camps. But now, were they going to survive Stalin upon their return to the so-called homeland?

MG: Why did you feel like you needed to go to Russia? Because you went after that trip to Germany, you went to Russia.

ROXANA SPICER: I did. Somehow I felt that because obviously, because my mother was Russian, that there was more to be discovered there. And I, in particular, I had secured a incredible, what we would call in the business, and you'll appreciate this, a "get." An incredible access to an interview with a woman who would go on to win the Nobel Prize for, the Peace Prize in 2022. And this was the co-founder of Russia's largest human rights organization called Memorial, and her name is Irina Scherbakowa. And I just love her. And she was so generous and she gave me an extraordinary afternoon. And that was the first time that I had an opportunity to take the images and the scenes that were playing in my mind that were formed in childhood and test them against the historical framework of the most really prestigious historic organization in Russia.

MG: What were you testing?

ROXANA SPICER: Well, first of all... Well, it wasn't first of all, it was actually almost the last question. But I want to get right to it-- what about that tattoo, that mysterious numbered arm tattoo? I practically had my coat and was out the door when I thought I would ask about this tattoo.

MG: This is a tattoo on your mother's arm.

ROXANA SPICER: Right. And just to be, I mean, that may seem really strange that it was the last question, but, you know, that tattoo was a family taboo. When we were growing up as children, she hid that tattoo under sweaters in the summer time. And we just knew intuitively as children not to ask about it, not even to look at it.

MG: What did you think the tattoo meant?

ROXANA SPICER: I knew that the tattoo meant that she had been a prisoner of war. That I knew. But I didn't know what Irina Scherbakowa told me, and what turned out to be the biggest bombshell, I would say, of my entire research effort. She looked at me and she said, Your mother had a tattoo? A real tattoo? I said, Yeah. A number tattoo? Yeah. She said, That means only one thing. That meant that she was in Auschwitz, which, of course, was the most notorious death camp of the Second World War. Well, I mean, I was absolutely floored.

MG: What did that mean to you, to learn that?

ROXANA SPICER: On one hand, I thought, I've solved the mystery. I've got it. I've got my story. I've got my book. I've got my film. I could-- that's all, that's the end of it. But of course, as soon as I walked out of the offices, the memorial back into the Doctor Zhivago snowstorm, it was like, well, wait a minute. How did she get there? When was she there?

MG: And how did she get out?

ROXANA SPICER: And most importantly, as it turns out, the question that emerges is the most elusive question, how'd she get out of Auschwitz?

MG: You went to Auschwitz to try to understand what it would have been like for her as your mother to have been there. And there's a recreation in the book of what it was like, what it would have been like for people to arrive there, people like your mother. [ROXANA: Right.] What was that like for yo? To go there-- I mean, a lot of people go there to see the sight of that death camp. But what was it like for you to go there and to try to contemplate what it would have been like for her?

ROXANA SPICER: First of all, you have to realize that Auschwitz today is the most popular tourist site in Poland. Well over a million people traipse through those campgrounds every summer. So it's very, very hard to get a private, contemplative moment in that environment. But I was very fortunate through my contacts in Canada that I was able to get the help of the top researcher. And we arrived at the grounds of Auschwitz-Birkenau, which is the hyphenated name that refers to the women's camp. We arrived in the pre-dawn hours before the tourists and we undertook together, Agnieszka and I, the task of walking the steps that my mother walked. Three kilometres end to end. At the end of the road, we approached the original restored building, brick building called Building B1A. This is the registration building. Stepped into this cavernous space onto the cracked concrete, the same concrete floor that my mother would have stepped on, heard my voice echoing off the brick walls. And try to imagine this space jammed full of naked, terrified women prisoners who were being taunted by SS men in full uniform, some of them drunk, some of them survivors. Remembering the smell of alcohol on their breath. Such a devastating detail to hear in that environment. And for me, even now, just thinking about it. And then, to look up over the doorways and to see this ghosted Nazi font. A font, by the way, the actual lettering now outlawed in Germany. And what did this font say? Here was the examination room. Here was the disinfecting room. Here was the haircutting room. The effect of seeing that is almost impossible for me to express verbally. And in that second, in that moment, I had an overwhelming desire to run. I mean, to physically run. So, yes, it was in that moment I also realized, I understood the connection between silence and sanity. I began to understand why my mother had kept silent for all those years.

MG: Tell me more about that, because you talk about that explicitly in the book. I mean, there's-- the book begins with an epigraph, which is an old Russian saying that your mother used to say, Be careful where you dig. You might find worms.

ROXANA SPICER: Oh yes. And I found many worms.

MG: What did you learn about-- I mean, again, as a journalist, you want to get answers, You want to ask the questions and have something revealed. But what did you learn in that moment about why it was so difficult for your mother to talk about what she had gone through? And why she and other members of the family said, Maybe you shouldn't be asking these questions.

ROXANA SPICER: You know, the struggle between the daughter and the journalist plagued me from the beginning, right until the very last moments of my research. You know, even, you know, listening to that clip that you just played, I still get a little twinge of guilt, I have to confess, even now, you know? Did I do the right thing by writing this book? And then, I have to remind myself of something that Mum said to me in another clip, also on camera that I recorded during our very last conversation together. The words I needed to hear. She said, Everyone has a right to know who their predecessors were. And in that, that takes away the debate for me.

MG: I don't want to give too much away. You spent a lot of time in the book looking at how she managed to get out of Auschwitz, how she survived and why she survived. She does get out. She ends up in Germany and then tries to walk back to Russia. She told you a little bit about what happened and I want to play some of that. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

AGNES SPICER: Most of my clothes probably been by that time stinking and have just about fallen off. And I thought, I'm going to take a swim. Maybe when I go home, maybe one day I'll have kids. And I'm going to tell them, I took a swim in the Rhine River. I did. And I remember there was lots of brushes, kind of grass and things swinging. Brown things.

ROXANA SPICER: What were you pushing away?

AGNES SPICER: Land mines. How the hell did I know?

MG: If she'd have made it back to Russia, what do you think would have happened?

AGNES SPICER: At that time, I have a very clear idea what would have happened. Because I did considerable research into that very question. And this is a part of the story of World War Two that is not widely known and certainly not in the English language. If my mum had gotten-- if she had not been turned back at the Rhine River by the American soldiers who-- the occupying forces then in Germany, if she had actually been walking in the right direction towards Russia and not towards the Rhine River, she would have found herself in a so-called filtration camp where she would have been subjected to the most intense interrogation about how she survived. And she would have been regarded with great suspicion, not only because of the fact that she survived Germany, but because she could speak fluent German and that at some point in her, early in her capture, she had actually worked for the Germans.

MG: This speaks to the title of the book, The Traitor's Daughter.

AGNES SPICER: Exactly.

MG: Why were these Russian POWs, people who survived the war, why were they considered traitors?

AGNES SPICER: They were considered traitors by Stalin because they had allowed themselves, in his words, to be captured. In Stalin's estimation, there was no such thing as a prisoner of war. There were only traitors. If you got captured, your duty to the motherland was to take a bullet. She would have been in a filtration camp. She would have faced court martial. In her own words. She knew that. And she most definitely would have landed up back behind barbed wire. For how long? Who knows. The fact that she worked as a translator, in the words of Irina Scherbakowa, the contact that I met at Memorial, the co-founder, she would definitely have been considered a Nazi collaborator. She could have faced up to 25 years. She could have been executed.

MG: You spent decades trying to piece this story together. Your brother said that this is your obsession.

AGNES SPICER: And well, it was my obsession. I've resolved it now. And I-- to that I'd like to say this, Matt. When I was a little girl, 10 or 11 years old, living in Netherhill, Saskatchewan, by the number seven highway, those nights that my mother was telling her midnight stories about the wartime years, you know, I would go back to sleep and I would have a reoccurring dream. And in that dream, I would be running along a dirt road, the main street of our little town of Netherhill. Running, running, then jumping and flying. Flying high above the three grain elevators and leaving behind in the dust--bad men. But who were those bad men? That took me a lifetime to figure out. That's what this book was really about. These were the ghosts of my mother's wartime story. This was Hitler and Stalin and these unidentified Nazi guards. Writing the book, putting the final period to the final sentence on the final paragraph of this story that has obsessed me from, for decades, has liberated me. I feel free, for the first time, of the past. I feel free of my mother's history. I once commented to Mom, I think it's a miracle that we're here. And she said again, in her inimitable way and again, with apologies to your more sensitive listeners, and so I'll do it in her voice, in her accent, "That's a bullshit." Well, telling this story and finding the journalistic historical context of what she actually survived, I think it is a miracle. And I still think it's a miracle that I'm even sitting here talking to you today. And I hope that my brothers feel that way, too.

MG: It's an incredible story. It's a real pleasure to talk to you about it. Roxana, thank you very much.

AGNES SPICER: Thank you very much, Matt.

MG: Roxana Spicer's new book is called The Traitor's Daughter. Well, coming up after your regional update, two decades after the invasion, Iraq says it is time for American troops to go home. There is a democratic government in place. The Islamic terrorist group ISIS holds no territory in Iraq. And yet, despite a moment which should be filled with hope, many Iraqis don't see a future for themselves there.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Yes, Iraq, today you can walk around Baghdad and you won't have car bombings. And so, it does seem stable. But underneath that sort of superficial layer, you have this very dark and toxic political system.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Coming up, a glimpse of life in Iraq once again on the precipice of change. And why young people, as I say, increasingly don't feel as though they have a future for themselves in that country and are encouraging each other perhaps to leave. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

[Music: Fades up]

What’s life in Iraq like now?

Guests: Meethak Al Khatib, Hewan Omer, Renad Mansour

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Iraq says it is time for the United States to leave. It has been more than 20 years since the U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq to end Saddam Hussein's dictatorship over false claims that there were weapons of mass destruction. Now, the prime minister of Iraq, Mohamad Shia al-Saadi, has announced a tentative deal to see the vast majority of American troops withdraw by 2026. Three Iraqis join me now to talk about the state of their country in 2024 and their vision for its future. Meethak Al Khatib is a freelance journalist based in Erbil. Hewan Omer is the country director for Iraq at the Free Yezidi Foundation. She is in Duhok, and Renad Mansour is a senior research fellow and project director of the Iraq Initiative at Chatham House, and he is in London. Hello, everyone.

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: Hi there.

HEWAN OMER: Hello.

RENAD MANSOUR: Thank you for having me. And having my colleagues, as well.

MG: Renad, what is this deal, such as it is, that the U.S. led coalition will leave Iraq? What does that signal to you about where Iraq is in 2024?

RENAD MANSOUR: Well, the current mandate of U.S. coalition in Iraq began in 2014 when the Islamic State, the so-called Islamic State, took over, you know, big cities like Mosul then took over a third of Iraq. And the government of Iraq requested support and requested the U.S. to come back because they had previously left in 2011. To come back to help the fight against ISIS. And since then, of course, we've seen a victory over ISIS. And currently ISIS is a very peripheral, you know, group that really doesn't pose much of a security threat to most parts of Iraq for now. And because of that, the government of Iraq has decided that it's time to move on to a different type of relationship, what they're calling bilateral or normal relationships with the U.S. The idea being that the Prime Minister wants to show that Iraq is sovereign. Iraq is no longer this case study of U.S. foreign policy and that it can stand on its own two feet.

MG: Do you think that the security situation is such that it makes sense for the United States to leave Iraq?

RENAD MANSOUR: Well, I think there's, you know, two answers to that. The very simple answer is that there is you know, the ISIS threat has reduced over the last several years to a point where perhaps, you know, there could be a renegotiated agreement there. However, I think we should always look at Iraq in such short term. In the last 20 years, we've seen sort of conflict end, and then come back. End and come back. We've had multiple victories in Iraq. I think every president has had some type of mission accomplished statement. So the point is, yes, right now, Iraq from a kind of hard conflict and security perspective, is as stable as it's ever been if you read, you know, Iraq body count reports. But that's not to say that the roots that lead to conflict that keeps resurging, those roots are yet to be addressed.

MG: Meethak, how would you describe the state of security in Iraq?

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: Well, there has been great improvement in Iraq security compared to previous years. But I still believe that lots of issues that caused for a lot of young people to see, like a group such as ISIS as an alternative for them to join, still exist in the country. We're still talking about massive amounts of corruption that's only getting bigger. And there is like in the last couple of years, especially in the government of Mohammed Sudani, that the freedom of speech have been really brutally attacked by the government. We're seeing a lot of young people being arrested. We have seen a lot of scholars being assassinated. And the government doesn't seem to do anything about that. And I feel this frustration that has been in Iraq in 2013 to a lot of, in particular, Sunni areas that strongly believe that they were persecuted by the Iraqi government at the time, found ISIS or such a group [unclear] al-Qaeda, and other Sunni militant groups, as a group that they could join to seek protection or to... like, find these an alternative. And this is in no way to justify joining a terrorism group, but rather that the government didn't work on the true basis and foundation of how to prevent that to not happen again and ever happening again.

MG: And is your sense that that is still the case? That that in some ways is the legacy of ISIS in Iraq?

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: Yeah. Like, I can still sense the frustration that was there within population before ISIS that they feel very fatigued and tired of how their daily life is highly effected by pressure, by corruption. We could see that there's huge introspection on the Iraqi government going in human rights, the freedom of speech, access to information and the right to defence. Like, in the justice system, there is like around 22,000 cases that have been persecuted by Iraq in the last few years related to terrorism. But according to so many human rights, trustful sources such as Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, that a lot of these trials are questionable. And I attended a few of them at one point, and they were like ten minute trials. And it's not a black and white. You cannot say that, ah, like the Iraqi army is now stronger because of the international support that it's been getting and the experience getting with fighting ISIS. That means Iraq will be safe. We still have the corruption, the persecution, the pressure on the people that plays a big part in that.

MG: Hewan Omer, it's been a decade since the Sinjar massacre and the Yazidi genocide. Do you think the Yazidis feel safe in Iraq now?

HEWAN OMER: Unfortunately, the situation of the minority communities like Yazidi in Iraq still like, have that fear of the repetition of the same atrocities to happen again. Because if you look into the situation of the Yazidis after the genocide when everything was publicised, everything was planned was there when the genocide happened. But now, ten years, if you look into the situation, most-- half of the community are still living in IDP camps in displacement, [unclear], two hours far from their homes without having any proper actual kind of plan that makes us feel as an indigenous communities in Iraq to feel that really, there is a government who really cares about us, that we can either return back with dignity into our homelands or what will be the future of people who are most of people who are living in, under [unclear]? What's going to be the future of this? Children and the whole generation? Their education system? We have this fear, honestly, that this is not going to be the last time because the minute you see the size of crimes and half of people are still living in displacement camp, if you look into the ISIS members who participated or who joined ISIS as members who were from Iraq. And we are seeing by the 10th anniversary, seeing the Iraqi making amnesty for those ISIS members. So, it's very concerning for us to see this kind of stakes that's been made from the government that's ending the mandate of Unitad, and its investigative team collecting and gathering evidence of the crimes that were committed. This is not the last time. The same atrocities are going to be repeated.

MG: You yourself were displaced, right?

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: Yes.

MG: Where are you living now?

HEWAN OMER: I am living in [unclear] in Kurdistan region since the genocide. Since 2014 we are displaced.

MG: What would it take, do you think, for you to feel safe to be able to return home?

HEWAN OMER: It's very important for me and for the community if we look at it those who committed crimes are held accountable because it keeps happening. Such atrocities and crimes. And for us as a community, it creates this fear within us. It creates that, if we really feel like we are linked or we belong to this country or we feel trust in the state. So, holding them accountable and other than that, the place of origin. We need-- that's where we talk about the safety and the security. But in order for me to return back to Sinjar, like beside talking about infrastructure and the services, it's also about how do I feel there? It's not about just building me four walls. It's about how do I feel in that building? It's so now if you go to Sinjar, there's different militia, different flags, different people fighting among each other. When we as citizens, we becomes the victims at the end. If anything, a group and terrorists like ISIS is coming, we become a victim again.

MG: Renard Mansour, a lot of the expectation has been put on this democratic government. Which is, I mean, it's a young democracy in some ways. How would you characterize that government? Are there growing pains when people talk about a lack of accountability, but also corruption? Are those the symptoms of a young democracy? Is there something else going on there?

RENAD MANSOUR: Yeah. I mean, I think if you look at the trajectory of Iraq's, you know, this democracy that was promised over 20 years ago in 2003, today you see potentially two trajectories. One trajectory is actually a move back towards authoritarianism. So, what we've seen, you know, as the guests have been talking about is an increase in repression of civil society. An increase in repression of communities across Iraq. It's becoming less safe to be a journalist. It's becoming less safe to be an activist in Iraq. So, those promises of freedoms and liberty that, you know, the U.S. and allies, you know, invaded Iraq for are slowly, you know, going away. And on top of that, we see a judiciary, we see a legal system that that is also captured by the elites, captured by corrupt sort of interests. And so, you have impunity across the board. So, you don't have the rule of law. You don't have independent checks and balances, whether it's the parliament or the judiciary. And so, these are the very tenants of democracy that are under threat right now by these elites who are looking to maintain their power. And in fact, at times, using laws and penal codes that go back to Saddam Hussein's time. So quite clearly connecting back to some of the tendencies of trying to develop a strongman type of system. So, that's one trajectory, a kind of move towards authoritarianism. The other trajectory, as we've also been discussing, is that conflict in the last 20 years has been cyclical. And what I mean by that is you have a sort of an insurgency, whether it was al Qaeda or later ISIS, then you have a military defeat of that insurgency, you know, with the U.S. and so many international allies supporting the Iraqi government that, you know, leads to some kind of seemingly peace. But those roots, which, you know, as we've been discussing, the corruption, the misgovernance, the mismanagement, those roots of the social contract are not being met. Which means that these roots, again, will spark into another conflict. So, I think, you know, to answer your question, yes, it's right that this could be growing pains for democracies. But, you know, notwithstanding the fact that Iraq has elections and the turnout is very low. Iraqis no longer have the ability to protest as much, let's say, after attempts in the past. So there are the tendons and markers of democracy, and this could look like growing pains. But the two real trajectories would say that democracy isn't on the horizon.

MG: What about a strong economy? What would that do to lift up the population but also perhaps stabilize things? I think of, in particular, just, you know, the oil that is a huge resource and a huge part of the Iraqi economy. If that economy were... and the benefits of that economy were to be spread throughout the population, what would that mean now?

RENAD MANSOUR: Yeah. Well, one of the greatest ironies is Iraq is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Its annual budget could be above 100 billion dollars a year, with 90 per cent of it coming from its wealth and energy, oil and gas. However, because of the corruption and because of the mismanagement, Iraq is unable to provide electricity or essential services. Medicine, basic needs to its population. And on top of that, the unemployment rate is only increasing, with Iraq having one of the highest youth populations in the region. Every year, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are looking for jobs and are unable to find it. And so, that youth unemployment is only rising. And sort of, to add to that, it's a rentier state, which means that its economy, this great budget that has over 100 billion dollars that barely trickles down to the population, is all contingent on the price of oil. And so, if the price of oil goes down, the government is unable to fulfil its-- even the minimal that it is doing. And so it's, you know, as one Iraqi politicians said, "At times, they're just like sitting ducks." There's no planning. There's no diversification of the economy. There's no ways to think through how to overcome something like the price of oil. Instead, they're sitting ducks who at some point will have another crisis when that price does inevitably go down.

MG: Meethak, you said, in some ways that frustration and particularly around corruption can drive young Iraqis into the hands of ISIS. What do they want? What do you think people in the country now want?

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: Iraqis has forgotten about the idea of having 24/7 electricity provided by the government. They wish for like having eight until four, or seven hours constantly per day. Their like, demands of Iraqis and their expectation of the government because of severe lack of services, education, health, social support, the population have been really, really only getting less and less to these people. And at one point, people just are just goint to break. They're just going to find that they have no reason to be loyal to this country or to this government or to its security forces if they get humiliated, detained, arrested, etc.. And it's hard. Like, as an Iraqi average citizen, you have no power against your government. You have no power against the security law enforcement.

MG: Even in a so-called democracy. You don't have a voice.

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: No, not really. You don't have a voice. And we've been seeing, especially after the war with ISIS, when Iran backed a group militia and gained more power politically on the ground in Iraq, we've been seeing endless amounts of young people and activists being like arrested, tortured. It happened to so many of my friends and my colleagues. Most of them had to quit doing what they do or change careers or just stop talking. And in Iraq, there's no fixing of an issue. Its just maintaining it.

MG: How difficult and dangerous is it for you to be a journalist in Iraq right now?

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: It's pretty dangerous, actually. It really depends where you work. I have to like, cherry pick my assignments of what I can do or where I can work. There is a ridiculous mandate by the Minister of Defence, like, for example, for me to access Sinjar, where the like, respected other member [unclear] is from, to work there-- I've been there. I need to get a paper, like written permission from the Minister of Defence, signed by multiple army and intelligence generals, so I can just go to a town to do my work. And I would be followed, quite sure. I've been followed. I've been contacted by Security Agency to tell me that they know that I'm here. So, it's really like to do independent journalism work, it's getting only difficult and only more complicated here.

MG: Hewan, what about for women in Iraq? What is-- in the wake of the fall of ISIS and under this current government, democratic government, what is life like for women and girls in Iraq now?

HEWAN OMER: I mean, in general, when it comes to women, unfortunately now, it's getting worse. And specifically, maybe you heard of it like it was recently, there was an-- in the parliament the proposal for amending the personal status law in allowing the girls at the age of nine, for example, to getting married. So, this is a, it creates a huge concern.

MG: Girls nine years old could be forced to marry?

HEWAN OMER: Marry at the age of nine. These are some of the amendments proposed to happen at the government, which we see a lot of support for, that which is a violation of, for many ways. Of the rights of children, and of education, of the mental health and then physical health. So, it creates beside the person itself and the whole in general, women and girls in the country, this is creating a fear within us. For us, working as a women led organization in the past eight years, and now for me it's very difficult and it's, I'm concerned when a meeting, when there is a place where I have to be careful to not use the word, for example, gender or to use the word empowerment. As if that, okay, you don't use that because everything looks good for women. There's no violence, there is nothing.

MG: Where do you-- in the face of that? I mean, this is, there are real problems. But this is also your country and it's a country that you have great affection for. When you think of yourself, but also that next generation. And I'll ask all of you this. But Hewan, where do you find hope in that?

HEWAN OMER: As a youth in the country, as a woman, as a people who are seeing the challenges that the country are facing, we want to be a part of how we can be a part and share ideas and thoughts to develop it. But unfortunately, every time, by every decision or announcement, the only thing they are making us to feel about it just, or think about it is just if you get any chance, just leave the country and go outside because there is no point out of there. So, this is what it creates honestly inside us. Although, for example, for me, women have a lot of thoughts and ideas and to share with how we can be together for the government to listen and hear our voices. Also, we are not a threat here. We want to be a part of it, how we can develop things. But unfortunately, it's not seen in that way. Only certain groups, or let's say, in the higher level will be heard. And the other people on the ground or on the field level will not be be heard. Or based on some reports where they have, they would make decisions.

MG: And so, the advice to to a younger generation can often be, if you can just leave?

HEWAN OMER: I mean, this is what they are putting us in the situation. Like, the more you try to go forward, and then they take another step back more to make things harder for when it comes to the rights of women and girls.

MG: Meethak, what about for you? Given everything that you've said that is frustrating and is perhaps not going right in your country, where are you finding hope in the future for Iraq?

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: Now, like thinking about this and bringing hope to the question about how to see Iraq, it seems getting only difficult. And one of the reasons that I believe it's crucial, and this as well is how the Iraqi government and the Iraqi political system is so not transparent with the people. Like, we are kept in the dark. Not only as a journalist, but as population in whole in where the money of this country is going. Iraq budget for 2024 has exceeded 160 billion dollars. And in a country in that size with this money, you see there are nothing being built. There's still entire cities and towns that is still highly effected after the war with minimal rebuilding efforts. And the ones who have actual being-- actually being rebuilt, this insane amount of corruption that went into this rebuilding projects. And Iraq is, has one of the youngest population in the region. We have so many young people under 30 who cannot have access to having jobs or loans to protect them. Like, there's no minimum wage laws that are implemented in the country. And these young people will graduate university and end up working whatever they can grab. Work in a coffee shop or work as a guard in a building when they hold scientific degrees and degrees that should make them progress in their own country. So, they would rather to leave.

MG: Do you feel like you have a future in the country?

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: Absolutely not.

MG: Absolutely not.

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: It's been really ridiculous what's been like happening to me and to colleagues. Really, I feel at one point our work here, it does matter. But it cannot make action because the government doesn't care. They can just say what you're saying is lying and associate you with ISIS or with the Saddam biased regime and you can be charged. Just one example, just to make clear what I'm saying, like now Iraq is going through another [unclear] to allow the government to persecute you upon like, personal statement that you would do in your online platforms. I could say that I'm not satisfied that with the minister of health's work because of this and this and the government can take this post I did and say you are spreading misinformation. Even this is [unclear] what's been happening on the ground for the last few years, for real. Like I know lots of activists who've been like, dragged away with the Swat teams out of their homes just by basically making Facebook posts about their dissatisfaction right now.

MG: Where does that leave the country and where does that leave any sense of hope for you? You have a young population, as we've heard, there's wealth in the country. There are people who want better. And yet the advice often is leave if you can. And people don't see a future for themselves in the country. Where, if anywhere, do you find any hope for the future of Iraq?

RENAD MANSOUR: Yes, it's a difficult question to try and now, you know, try and find hope, when what we've been discussing, you know, with all of us has been, you know, Iraq going through a history, a recent history of of invasion, occupation, genocide, repression of rights. And nowhere in there is any signs of democracy other than on paper. And so often, you know, people would say that it's in this young population that's not, you know, giving up. This is the, sort of often what's said. But if you look at, you know, elections are closed. People don't believe elections will bring about change. People have learned that protests also, you know, are being repressed, political mobilization is being repressed. You are seeing people, you know, through arts or through poetry or through other mediums trying to have a voice as they become suffocated. And perhaps, you know, in the future, this young population, you know, does want obviously, they may seem ambivalent, but they do want a better future and they might keep fighting. But I think, you know, that hope needs to be taken with everything else that's being said, which is grave, everyday conflict. If we take it back to how we began the conversation, yes, Iraq today you can walk around Baghdad and you won't have car bombings, insurgencies and all of this. And so, it does seem stable, but underneath that sort of superficial layer, you have this very dark and toxic political system that means that people are suffering every day with a lack of medicine, lack of health care, lack of electricity. And this will continue. So, you know, we can try and find hope, but the trajectory isn't very hopeful.

MG: I'm really glad to have the chance to speak with you all about this. Thank you very much. And take care of yourselves.

MEETHAK AL KHATIB: Thank you.

RENAD MANSOUR: Thank you so much.

MG: Meethak Al Khatib is a freelance journalist based in Erbil. Hasan Omer is the country director for Iraq at the Free Yazidi Foundation. She was in Duhok. And Renad Mansour is a senior research fellow and project director of the Iraq Initiative at Chatham House in London. That is The Current for this Thursday. Q, of course, is up next right here on CBC Radio One. We're going to leave you with some music by an award-winning Iraqi musician and actor. Name is Ahmed Moneka. Was forced to leave Baghdad nine years ago, sought asylum in Toronto and says that music helps him remember where he came from. This is Ahmed Moneka from his debut album, Kanzafula, and a song called Mother. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and we'll see you tomorrow.

[Music: 'Mother' by Kanzafula]

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Thursday September 19, 2024 Full Transcript

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