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The Current Transcript for September 12, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: I speak to key parties who have lost, you know, enormous numbers of family members who will say that they'll go into work, and no one asks them how they're doing.

MG: It is the beginning of a new school year on university and college campuses after a tumultuous term where pro-Palestinian encampments were set up at many schools and administrators and students are trying to figure out how to dial down the tension this semester. In 30 minutes, Canada Special Representative on Combating Islamophobia on protests. What she sees as the difference between feeling safe and feeling uncomfortable on campus and whether listening to each other is even possible or desired in this heated moment. Also this morning, Air Canada and the union representing its pilots are on the verge of a labour disruption. Flights could begin to be cancelled as soon as this weekend. Coming up, the issues at the heart of the dispute and what the uncertainty says about how hard it is already to fly in certain parts of this country. Plus:

SOUNDCLIP

CHRISTIAN WHITE: It's something that you can't learn in school. It's something that is passed down from generation to generation. We're bringing a new life to the cedar.

MG: That life comes in the shape of a 50-foot canoe that Christian White is carving from a massive cedar tree. He's been working on it for months in his shed in Haida Gwaii. In an hour, bringing ancient traditions to life by hand. But we begin in Ukraine with war grinding on the U.S. and the U.K., offering even more powerful weapons than Ukrainians increasingly calling for an end to this conflict. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Ukraine hits Moscow with drones as war with Russia grinds on

Guests: Tim Mak, Andres Kasekamp

MG: The hum of the drone comes first.

[Sounds: Drone humming]

MG: And then the explosion. It's the sound of a war often fought with drones. Earlier this week, Ukraine launched a series of drone strikes into the Moscow area. It was Ukraine's largest direct attack on the Russian capital. Last night, Russia launched a counteroffensive in Russia's Kursk region. Ukraine has been at war with Russia for roughly two and a half years, and now Ukraine may finally get the go ahead to use long range missiles supplied by the West. United States Secretary of State Antony Blinken was in Ukraine yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTHONY BLINKEN: With an expansion of attacks from Russia, pummelling Ukrainian cities, citizens, infrastructure with monstrous brutality. And now Putin's further empowering his aggression with the acquisition of Iranian ballistic missiles. So, we're working with urgency to continue to ensure that Ukraine has what it needs to effectively defend itself.

MG: The U.S. and other allies have imposed new sanctions on Iran for supplying short range missiles to Russia. And meanwhile, there is evidence that North Korean missiles are being used by Russia against Ukraine. Tim Mak is a journalist and founder of The Counteroffensive. It's a media publication reporting on the war in Ukraine. He's in Kiev. Tim, hello.

TIM MAK: Hey there.

MG: How is the news that the U.S. and now it seems the U.K. may grant Ukraine permission to use long range missiles? How is that being greeted in Ukraine?

TIM MAK: Well, you know, on the one hand, a lot of folks are praising the decision, but there's a lot of, there's kind of an undercurrent of bitterness underneath all of that, which is that the Ukrainians really have been pushing for this for a long time. And there's this feeling that it should have been done sooner. And if it had been done sooner, there could be a lot of Ukrainian soldiers alive today and civilians alive today that aren't because Ukraine hasn't been able to reach out and strike into Russian territory with American or British weapons. Now, we haven't received a formal announcement yet, although there have been some hints so far from the State Department and from the U.K. ministry. So, we'll still wait to see whether or not Ukraine perhaps strikes first even before the announcement is made or if there's a formal announcement. But there is some expectation that there will be a slow change in policy. It's that slow change in policy, that slow kind of dragging of governments at Western governments towards its eventual position, that's been so frustrating for Ukraine.

MG: Again, we heard that in the comments from Antony Blinken, this suggestion that those long range weapons would be supplied and the permission would be given to use them. British government sources are suggesting a decision has already been made to allow Ukraine to use cruise missiles on targets inside Russia. As you understand it, why has it taken this long?

TIM MAK: Well, the-- Ukraine's Western partners have to think about two competing priorities, one of which is, of course, to support their democratic ally in Ukraine. But the other is to think more regionally and to think globally, and particularly with regards to the idea of this war expanding beyond just Ukraine to include other NATO countries and whether their actions in the West might be perceived by Russia to be escalatory. And so, there's a bunch of chess moves happening right now. And American diplomats, British diplomats, other native diplomats, they want to help Ukraine. But on the other hand, they're concerned that their moves might allow Russia to claim that NATO's now an active partner in the war. British forces are now fair targets or American targets overseas might be fair game.

MG: What will these weapons mean, do you think? I mean, as we've talked about, Ukraine is using domestically produced drones to strike in Russia. But if those other tools, if I can put it that way, are available to Ukrainian forces, what will that mean?

TIM MAK: Well, you think of things like the ATACMS missile. These are Western manufactured weapons systems that have a great deal more accuracy and a great deal more reach. And so, this is what Ukraine has been seeking to use to defend its position during the Kursk incursion, for example. I'll give you an example of one particular kind of weapon. There's an ATACMS missile that has what's called a cluster munition. And what happens when that cluster munition is shot just before it hits its target, dozens and dozens and dozens of smaller bomblets spill out. And a large area is struck and destroyed. So, this is the kind of munition you might want, for example, to use to strike an airstrip where Russians are launching fighter jets that are shooting glide bombs at Ukrainian settlements and cities. It's that sort of scenario that Ukraine really wants to use Western weapons, but so far has not been allowed.

MG: I mentioned earlier in the introduction that this week Ukraine launched a drone strike in the Moscow area. A woman was killed there. This is the largest drone attack on the Russian capital thus far. How is Russia responding?

TIM MAK: Well, you can see it in the way that they've launched a counter-offensive in the Kursk region. But interestingly enough, you know, Russia's disinformation is not just for foreign audiences. To their domestic audience, they're claiming that all is well, all the drones were shot down in all regions and that their air defence was successful, which is obviously not the case if you look at what's in open source and what Russians themselves are posting on Telegram and other social media networks. So, that's how they're responding both on the battlefield and in the information space.

MG: How do you understand Ukraine's strategy now increasingly taking the war inside Russia itself?

TIM MAK: Well, I think for the last, for most of the last two and a half years, the war has been fought on Ukrainian territory and Ukrainian military forces and many Ukrainian civilians are relishing this idea of taking the fight to the enemy and making Russia and Russian society pay a price for the war that Russia has instigated. For far too long, Ukrainians have shaved at images, videos of Russians going about their daily lives as if there is no war going on while Ukrainians are huddled in air shelters and are subject to regular electrical disruptions. Their families being mobilized and air attacks. And so, in many ways, this strategy is to make the war come home to Russia and to push Russian society closer towards some sort of eventual push for a diplomatic end to this war.

MG: There's been reporting in the Wall Street Journal recently out of a surveys done and polling done by the Carnegie Endowment for Peace that something like 43 per cent of Ukrainians want that country to look at figuring out ways to negotiate with Russia to end this war. Now, the details in the scenarios are more complicated than that figure of 43 per cent would suggest. But the thrust of the reporting is that there is an exhaustion and a fatigue that is setting in. And people, many people, in Ukraine want this war over. As you understand it, there in Kiev, what's morale like right now?

TIM MAK: Well, I'll tell you this, as someone who's sitting in a room right now without any power at all, that over time, you know, the war for anyone, civilian or military, and particularly for the military, has ground on and created a level of exhaustion that's hard to put into words. Forty-three per cent seems like a bit high, but it represents, I think, a substantial portion of society that wants to see the war come to a diplomatic end. Understanding the limitations of Ukraine as a much smaller country against a much larger country, especially since most of the war is being fought on its territory. The costs to its economy, to its demographics over the long term, I think some folks, as the war goes on, are hoping that a diplomatic solution can be reached, although you'll get many, many, many different opinions on exactly what kind of diplomatic solution would be acceptable to them.

MG: Do you hear that from people there? That-- we're coming into the third winter of this war. As you mentioned, power cuts are a regular thing. Russia has ramped up its attacks on the energy infrastructure. The belief is it could be another long, cold winter. Do you hear that from people? That they're exhausted and that they want to try to figure a way out of this?

TIM MAK: Yeah. I mean, if you talk to a hundred Ukrainians, you get as if you talk to 100 Canadians, you'll get 100 different answers on what is appropriate, what sort of, you know, 'This is what Zelenskyy ought to do.' I'm sure a lot of folks have a lot of opinions on what the prime minister of Canada ought to do on any given day. But, you know, I think what I've noticed over the last year is a gradual understanding that there will be no, as the former Minister of Defence once said, there will be no kind of glorious victory that just, you know, overnight Ukraine is able to purge the Russian presidents from their country, that they're, that whatever comes next will be grinding, costly and difficult. And in the face of that future, many people have different opinions on what kind of solution possibly diplomatic ought to be reached in order to end the war.

MG: Tim, thank you very much for this.

TIM MAK: Thank you so much for having me.

MG: Tim Mak is a journalist and the founder of The Counteroffensive. It's a media publication reporting on war in Ukraine. As you heard, he's in Kiev in a room with no electricity. Andres Kasekamp is in our studio. He's been listening, and he's a professor at the University of Toronto's Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, focusing on Eastern European history and politics. Good morning to you.

ANDRES KASEKAMP: Good morning.

MG: What would it mean-- let's start with the announcements that are yet to come, but certainly the agreements appear to be there that are allowing the U.S. and the U.K. to remove restrictions on long range ballistic missiles. What would that mean for Ukraine?

ANDRES KASEKAMP: Well, I think, as Tim had said, that this is long awaited by the Ukrainians and it's not a done deal yet. And it's terribly frustrating for the Ukrainians to wait for the drip, drip aid that the West has been providing. So, this is the story that we've seen sort of all along through the war, right? In the beginning of the war, when the West was afraid to provide any weaponry, offensive weaponry to the Ukrainians for the fear of provoking the Russians and fearing escalation, fearing Russian red lines. It was the case with providing tanks, providing F-16s and now these long-range missiles. Every time the Ukrainians have had to basically beg for months and make the case and it's taken far too long for the West and specifically Washington to get around to that point of view. And in the meantime, there have been so many Ukrainian lives lost and not only lives lost, but infrastructure destroyed, the same infra energy infrastructure which the Americans and the Europeans are paying to rebuild might not have been destroyed had they provided the Ukrainians the means to defend themselves in the first place.

MG: Are those fears of escalation not justified? I mean, sending tanks is one thing. Allowing Ukrainians to shoot cruise missiles into Russia seems to be a completely different scenario.

ANDRES KASEKAMP: No, I don't think so. [MG: Really?] I think-- Yes. I think the empirical evidence of this war has been, as I just outlined, every case, there's been these imaginary Russian red lines. And every time they've been crossed, nothing has happened.

MG: Is the line of the border, though, shooting those missiles into the across that border, not the definition of an escalation?

ANDRES KASEKAMP: It's just at the beginning of the summer, everyone assumed that, say a incursion crossing the-- Ukrainians have invaded Russia. They're occupying parts of Russian territory. And the Russian government has basically shrugged that off as the new normal. The response has been very subdued on the part of the Russians. One would have thought that this would be one of the Russian red lines, that the Ukrainian forces actually coming and not just raiding across the border, but actually taking Russian territory, that this would occasion a response. But as Tim said in his interview, that the Russian government is also very adept at fooling its own citizens. So, they have their propaganda for to scare off to deter the West. So, with this fear of escalation, but they also have this propaganda for their own people to say that this is just-- I mean, Putin still doesn't even refer to it as a war. It's just simply a special military operation. And he goes around making it seem that business is, you know, normal. And that has been the point of the Ukrainian drone strikes that were mentioned earlier against Moscow the other day is to kind of wake up Russians, to give them a sense that the war also affects them, which people in Moscow and St Petersburg have been able to avoid that reality up to now.

MG: How concerned are you-- it's not just the U.K. and the U.S. and other allies that are entangled in this, that Iran seems to be supplying Russia with missiles, North Korea doing the same. The Biden administration says Chinese companies are selling tools and electronics to Russia. How concerned are you about that?

ANDRES KASEKAMP: Well, exactly. That's the consequence of the Americans not being bold enough up to now. Right? They have said constantly that, you know, they threatened North Korea and Iran before the North Koreans and the Iranians began supplying the Russians, that this would be unacceptable. But the North Koreans and the Iranians have gone ahead and there hasn't been any consequence. And that's what I meant earlier about the Russian bluffs with the red lines, that these have consequences when adversaries of the U.S. see that there is no pushback from the West. I mean, it's a ridiculous situation at the present where the North Koreans are supplying the Russians with more munitions than the West, which should be able to out produce North Korea is doing.

MG: But of course the west has supplied Ukraine with huge, vast amounts of munitions over the course of the last two and a half years.

ANDRES KASEKAMP: Indeed. But the North Koreans are producing more at this moment supplying than the West is. And North Korea is one of the most heavily sanctioned countries in the world. How should, how is this possible?

MG: What do you make of the stories of fatigue when it comes to this war? The reporting that-- and again, the details are not just the headline of 43 per cent, but that it increasingly, there is the story of a Ukrainian blogger who posted people want peace and she was hauled in by the intelligence services for a chat. That increasingly, and Tim admits to this, that people are exhausted. They're worried about another winter. And some Ukrainians and an increasing number of Ukrainians would like to try to figure out a way to negotiate an end to this war. What do you make of that?

ANDRES KASEKAMP: Well, that's, of course, true, because they've been pummeled by the Russians every day for nearly three years. And the Russians have been systematically targeting their infrastructure. And their attacks have come at the nighttime. They are trying to disrupt the lives of Ukrainians and to exhaust them. And so, it's completely natural that Ukrainians would want peace, but they don't want peace at any price. At the beginning of this war, people were talking about providing Putin with an exit ramp. But imagine the situation where the Ukrainian president Zelenskyy signs a deal where he gives away Ukrainian territory to the Russians. His position will probably become untenable in terms of domestic politics and in Ukraine as well. And when we talk about, say, trading territory for peace, this has a very dangerous road to go because it's been tried before with the Russians. There were the Minsk agreements, Minsk one and Minsk two, where the Russians maintained control, or their sort of separatist proxies remained control over the Donbass region, but that did not prevent Russia from attacking. That was 2014, right? And 2015. That did not prevent Russia from a full-scale invasion in 2022. And you also have to think of say, if you give away territory, there's the Ukrainian people who live there who will be subjugated to Russian tyranny. You can think of the example, just one example of how, say, there are stories of Ukrainian pensioners who are forced to take Russian citizenship because if they don't, they'll be denied their medications. So, those are the sort of everyday facts on the ground for Ukrainians if they have to agree with Russian occupation.

MG: So, just-- we just have a minute left. How does this end? If that's-- if it's complicated, obviously, but increasingly, there's fatigue, not just there, but we saw the presidential debate on Tuesday in the United States; questions around what might happen were Donald Trump to win. How does this end?

ANDRES KASEKAMP: Well, if Donald Trump wins, he, of course, promises to end this immediately. Of course, he promises all sorts of things he's unable to fulfil. We assume that he means that he would stop aiding Ukraine immediately, but that won't stop the Ukrainians from fighting. The Ukrainians still have a will to resist. The Europeans will also continue to fund Ukraine. It's-- the Americans often think of that, of course, in absolute terms, they're giving more than anyone else. But in terms of percentage of their defence budget, it's not very much compared to what many small European countries like Denmark or Estonia are giving and are very committed to. So, the question is when the West says that we will stand with Ukraine as long as it takes, what does that mean? What is the end goal? And the end goal should be Ukrainian victory.

MG: Andres, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much. Andres Kasekamp is a professor at the University of Toronto's Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. He focuses on Eastern European history and politics. Your CBC News is coming up next. And then:.

SOUNDCLIP

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: We have other instances where visibly Muslim students, for example, wearing the hijab, were spat on, you know, at Western University in London. And it took a while for there to be, again, consequences taken. In that intervention, there was an arrest and there was an individual who was charged. But the sense of safety that students were left with was quite shaken.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Canada's representative on combating Islamophobia, Amira Elghawaby, has been meeting with Muslim, Arab and Palestinian students, faculty and staff on post-secondary campuses. She has sent a letter to university and college administrators on what she saw as the failures in terms of dealing with protests in the last semester and how things might be different as school has resumed. We will speak with her coming up in six minutes about what she wants to see on those campuses and how you go to get people actually speaking to each other and listening to each other. That's coming your way after the news. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

[Music: Fades up]

Combatting Islamophobia on Canada’s campuses

Guests: Amira Elghawaby

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. It has been over 11 months since the Israel-Hamas war began. Since the 7th of October, there's been a rise in Islamophobia, anti-Palestinian and anti-Arab racism and anti-Semitism in Canada. Amira Elghawaby is Canada's special representative on combating Islamophobia, and she spent the past few months meeting with Muslim, Arab and Palestinian students, staff and faculty on campuses where clashes over pro-Palestinian encampments have administrators grappling with how to balance everything from the right to protest, to academic freedom, to the safety of students and faculty. She recently attended roundtables held by Liberal MPs Salma Zahid and Sameer Zuberi across Canada to explore the issue of anti-Palestinian racism, and she joins us from our studio in Ottawa this morning. Amira Elghawaby, good morning.

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Let's begin on campuses because the school year is just underway. What have you heard from the students and faculty you've spoken with?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: So, it really runs the whole gamut of hearing from students who are absolutely frightened of expressing their views on what's happening in Gaza right now. Hearing that some students have actually faced negative consequences for social media posts expressing their support for human rights, including for Palestinians. We've heard about faculty or staff facing repercussions for their outward social media posts, for speaking up about these issues. People who have faced termination or some kind of consequence without formal process in place. And as the new year begins. I'm also hearing from student groups who are saying that universities are putting in place new measures that add barriers to their ability, for example, to hold workshops or seminars to help educate their fellow classmates and university communities about what's happening. And so, it feels and continues to feel for many that I'm hearing from, that university administrations are just not getting the balance right when it comes to addressing both academic freedom, civil liberties and ensuring that these students, staff and faculty are also protected from Islamaphobia, from anti-Palestinian racism that they are still being exposed to in their classrooms and on their campuses.

MG: Is there one particular story --I can ask you about some specifics-- but is there one particular story that you have heard that stands out to you?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: I remember speaking to one university student who said to me that she's, you know, she's a medical student, medical resident. And we've heard a lot of issues actually for medical residents across the country. They are so frightened because fellow students have almost been surveilling them, their social media, what they've been saying, what they've been participating in. And they have had very difficult conversations with their administrators and with their lecturers, where some students have even been told, do not sign any petitions in support of what's happening. We have seen very dire consequences.

MG: What have the students said on social media that would lead to, I mean, you used the word consequences. You said that some people had faced termination, as well. What have people said on social media that has led to that?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Yeah. So, the reality is that almost any type of expression of support for Palestinians is leading to some kind of negativity and negative consequences. And we saw that not only with social media posts, we saw that at the encampments where there were constant accusations, for example, at the University of Toronto encampment, that there was anti-Semitic speech. And, you know, the Ontario Superior Court looked at what was happening in the encampments through an injunction that was brought forward. And the judge there ruled that, in fact, there was no evidence of antisemitism within the encampment. So, that's actually been, you know, pointed to by constitutional experts like Richard Moon, like Jamie Cameron, The Centre for Free Expression, have pointed out that the accusations that students or faculty staff are engaged in anti-Semitic narratives is being used to silence and to claim that there is a lack of safety on university campuses when at the core of many of these activities, whether it's online, whether it's through the encampments, whether it's through various efforts to hold universities accountable and try to get into a dialogue, this almost immediate claim that this is anti-Semitic or harmful means that the freedom of expression, academic integrity, is being threatened.

MG: Let me come back to the issue of safety in a moment, but have actually been professors that have been terminated for what they posted on social media?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Right. So, there is a case actually that I can point to at Brown College in Toronto where there was a culinary instructor, a well-known chef who was actually investigated for his social media posts. And the reality of a case like that really speaks to what happens across campuses where, you know, it's almost via or terminate or face consequences first and ask questions later. And so, this instructor was found to be not in any violation of college policies, but by then there had been so many rumours accusing him of being anti-Semitic that he eventually had to resign from his position and is now pursuing legal recourse. So, that's an example where the very serious consequences no one wants to be accused of anti-Semitism. No one should be engaging in anti-Semitism, any form of hate, whether it's that our Islamophobic narratives or anti-Palestinian racism, any form of hate, of course, has to be condemned by university administrations, and that's not acceptable. But again, we are seeing this clampdown. And even when we saw a review at the Toronto Metropolitan University of how law students who had signed a petition calling for Palestinian human rights, a letter that was signed and that was deemed to be hurtful but not anti-Semitic by...

MG: This is a letter that also said that Israel wasn't a country.

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Well, as, you know, former Justice Michael McDonald, who was brought in to look at the situation, he deemed that the letter was not anti-Semitic, it was hurtful and that the students should have been provided an opportunity to learn from what he described as a mistake, but that students on a university campus have to have the freedom to be able to explore how they're feeling about social justice issues, issues like what many perceive to be a genocide in Gaza. And they have the right to be speaking about these issues and where they may make mistakes, and that's what he described it as, the universities have to create a space for them to learn from that. But for there to be an utter clampdown, a threat to their, you know, academic careers, their professional careers, you know, he and others have described that as, you know, a step too far and very dangerous for academic integrity.

MG: So, you wrote in a letter that you sent to university and college presidents in Canada that, and these are your words, 'In the midst of these challenging moments, many universities did not get it right when it came to protecting the fundamental right of peaceful protest on campus.' In what ways do you think, I mean, we saw encampments on campuses coast to coast. And what ways do you think those universities and colleges got it wrong?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Well, we have many instances, for instance, at the University of Alberta or in Calgary where, and York University, where police were called in very quickly. It's actually, you know, constitutional lawyers, people like Jamie Cameron at Osgoode Law Hall Law School, who said that this is a direct threat of freedom of assembly, a charter right in our country. And it cannot be that these types of gatherings, these types of peaceful assemblies are immediately faced with a clampdown and immediately dispersed by the police. That sends a, first of all, a terrible message to students who are, again, learning about social justice issues, are learning how to participate in a society, learning how to raise their concerns about university policies and for them to face, you know, violent repression by police is extremely disturbing. And so, further that...

MG: Those were incidents that were not repeated elsewhere in the country, though. And I'm not minimising what happened at those schools, but the majority of campuses where there were encampments, the police were not called in. The encampments ended either through a resolution that was struck with the protesters leaving or with injunctions that allowed, you know, the universities to bring in police. But the police didn't come in.

AMIRA ELHAWABY: And that's absolutely true. But there are also other types of ways in which administrations could have done better. So, for example, at the University of British Columbia, there was a contractor who was allegedly hired by Hillel, which is a local, you know, student group that allegedly had created stickers that said, I love Hamas. And that was associated attributed to the local student justice centre. And the university until now, according to the students, has not taken any action to address that. Of course, that would have been extremely harmful for the students to be associated with that type of sticker and that type of information. So, in fact the list is long. We have other instances where visibly Muslim students, for example, wearing the hijab, were spat on. You know, at Western University in London, we had students who were being harassed over the course of October and December of last year. And it took a while for there to be, again, consequences taken in that. And eventually there was an arrest and there was an individual who was charged. But the sense of safety that students were left with was quite shaken. You know, even this week at the University of Toronto, we're seeing outside agitators coming on campus yelling very Islamophobic slurs at students, at faculty, at staff. And until now, what I'm hearing from community is the administration has not taken enough action. And so, again, the safety and well-being of everyone has to be at the forefront.

MG: You say that universities --and it speaks directly to that-- need to and again, these are your words, 'Provide clear direction on the difference between feeling safe and being uncomfortable.' What do you mean by that?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Yeah. And that has actually come up in, you know, for example, again, I referenced the injunction case at the University of Toronto where there were accusations that students that were participating in the encampment were engaged in anti-Semitic narratives. And the judge, you know, investigated that, looked into that and said that was not true. So clearly, what the students were engaged in at that encampment was making people uncomfortable. But that, as the judge found, was reasonable. It was reasonable that people will feel uncomfortable, but it did not step into what we would all condemn, which is hate speech. I also see in the letter that, you know, students, staff, faculty should not be prevented, for example, ferom moving from one part of the campus to the other. You know, we have seen cases of that.

MG: What do you mean?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: So, there have been reports, for example, that students have said that they are unable, for example, to move around. They are feeling that some protesters are being too aggressive. That should be investigated by the administration.

MG: Because this is an issue of safety. One of the things that we've heard from Jewish students and faculty on campuses across this country is that and again, it's not a monolith in terms of a community, but that they feel unsafe. That the chants from some protesters, like 'From the river to the sea,' they believe, in their view, are anti-Semitic. That they feel-- you talked about students who are visibly Muslim, that being visibly Jewish can be a threat to their safety on campus as those protests unfold. So, if somebody says they feel unsafe, who's to say that they're wrong?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Well, I think that's why in the letter I provide the advice and recommendation to university presidents to, you know, bring on an adviser on civil liberties, on freedom of expression, on academic integrity, because I think we are actually grappling with very complex issues here where, of course, we would all agree, all Canadians want to see our university campuses and college campuses be places where everyone feels comfortable and safe to express themselves. But at the same time, we know, for example, that chant that you mentioned 'From the river to the sea,' that has been looked at by the courts, that has been looked at, you know, as as recently as by Metta, that found that that in and of itself is not a hateful chant.

MG: But if people feel it is a hateful chant, I mean, one of the things you say in the letter is the right to a safe space does not mean that others are not allowed to express views or opinions on issues that some may disagree with. I just wonder who who draws that line on the campus?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Yeah. And that is the question that university presidents have to answer. And I think they are going to have to engage in a dialogue with their university communities on these types of questions in order to ensure that whatever response that they're coming up with, that it reflects the needs of the entire, you know, university communities. The problem that we've been seeing, and what I've been hearing, is that in particular Canadian, Muslim, Palestinian, Arab students, staff and faculty and their allies have not been fully engaged on these issues and their sense of safety and well-being and ability to speak to what they perceive as one of the most serious and worrisome humanitarian crises of their lifetimes, that they are being limited in their ability to engage on this extremely important issue. The balance is not being made here, and I think that's what university presidents, I hope, are going to take very seriously. And I've started to receive responses from university presidents. And, you know, I'm quite optimistic about what they're telling me. They have been taking, undertaking various initiatives to engage with their entire faculty, students and staff. For example, University of Alberta, who wrote to me and said that they've actually now engaged on a new program to bring students and faculty from Gaza and try to have an educational exchange and try to do, you know, their part in this humanitarian crisis.

MG: In the meantime, students are back on campus. And I mean, in the wake of those encampments, schools have been making their policies around protests clear. The University of Toronto has been criticised for this policy that prohibits signs or posters or flyers being affixed outside of designated areas. They say that's a form of vandalism, says there will be no overnight protests. Do you think that's reasonable?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Well, I think it's going to be up to, again, administrations to both engage with their university communities. As well as I know and I've heard that, you know, there may be potential charter challenges coming forward here. So...

MG: As somebody who's offering counsel or advice and some guidance to those schools, do you think, for example, the issue of overnight protests, encampments-- is banning those encampments a reasonable step for the schools to take?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Well, going back to balancing our charter rights, so, you know, there are no unlimited rights. They have to be balanced with the ability, for example, for people to move around a campus, for instance. So, these are all issues that do have to be adjudicated and discussed. So, all I will say is that what I'm hearing again from Muslim, Palestinian, Arab and allies, students, faculty and staff, is that what they have been seeing this year already is a bit of a double standard and a heavy handedness in their ability to now start organizing, again, workshops or educational events. For example, here in Ottawa, Carleton University, one of the students groups has been told that they are going to have to pay for their own security for one event that could look like $500. They only get about $250 per year to run as a student group. That kind of cost for running an event puts up a significant barrier on that student group's ability to engage on issues that matter. So, it's very important that administrations are not putting up barriers to the very necessary part of school and student life, which is to engage on difficult topics, to educate one another. And all of us who've gone to universities or colleges, we remember life on campuses is vibrant. It's exciting. We're sharing and exchanging ideas. And putting up barriers to that is, first of all, threatening that sense of belonging that students deserve to feel on campuses. And it also sets up almost, you know, a two tier citizenship on campus where some students are able to function very easily and do whatever they like and hold whatever workshops and events they want, and others are feeling specific limits.

MG: Is that what you believe is happening? That there's a two tier system? That certain-- and I don't know who the other tier would be. Are you talking about Jewish students or Israeli students?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: No, no. Just general.

MG: That there's a two tier system that allows some protests or some workshops to happen and others to be curtailed?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: What I'm hearing is that whenever there are issues being, for example, a workshop or a seminar related to what's happening in the Palestinian territories and the occupied territories dealing with Gaza, that there is a differential treatment, not always, not across the board, but enough that I'm hearing that fear of students wanting to engage. And we have examples, again, you know, there was, you know, at one university campus last year, there was a workshop on students trying to learn about Palestine's history. And, you know, police just showed up randomly. And they were told that, you know, someone called us in and it created a very negative feeling for the people who are participating. Again, that feeling of being surveilled or that feeling that we're doing something wrong. So, that is a real concern. All students, all staff, all faculty should be abiding by the same rules and policies and values of the university. And where there is tension of, you know, a fair minded dialogue is required. Where as we've heard again from, you know, Justice Michael MacDonald or through, you know, the court ruling on the injunction, where we're actually looking at the evidence of what's happening versus engaging in smears, engaging in silencing and chilling and making people feel unsafe in their ability to express how they feel about issues that really matter to them.

MG: Let me just ask you a couple of things before I let you go. You've been working with your counterpart, Deborah Lyons, who is Canada's former ambassador to Israel, the current special envoy on preserving Holocaust remembrance and combating anti-Semitism. What strikes you about the similarities in the work that you're both doing right now?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Well, both of us are extremely committed to a Canada where everyone is treated with dignity, with respect. You know, I had met with Deborah months before she even accepted the role to have a conversation about our vision for, you know, the work. And what struck me was both of us have a really deep commitment to advancing social cohesion, to advancing all of the values that make Canada such a wonderful place actually to live. And so, now we find ourselves where, sadly, divisive narratives abound. You know, we're seeing hate crimes, hate incidents going up. And, you know, increasingly in 2023, hate crimes targeting Muslims went up by 94 per cent. And that doesn't even tell us the full story because many people do not go forward to police. These are really disturbing trends. And I think it's not going to take one person, one special representative or envoy or one level of government. This is a whole of society crisis, actually, because it speaks to our shared values. We, of course, are going to disagree, like any family will disagree on an issue. But there has to be a glue that keeps us together, and that glue has to be our shared values of human rights, of equality, and that Canada is a place where we can get along and we can work together for the common good.

MG: To that point then, and I guess, just finally, part of combating Islamophobia and anti-Semitism and creating that sense of social cohesion is that people actually listen to each other, that people see a shared humanity in each other. And I just wonder whether you think that people want to do that right now?

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Well, I think it's really important to almost go back to the local. And in our local communities, if we've already established good relationships with one another, then it will make these difficult times that much easier. And we know, of course, that, you know, in our very busy lives and the way that people are not as connected as they used to be, it is difficult to maintain and foster good relationships. But I can tell you that, you know, when we do take the time to build our understanding of one another, or the pain that people are feeling, you know, I speak to Canadian Palestinians who are Muslim, but also Christian, who have lost, you know, enormous numbers of family members who will say that they'll go into work and no one asks them how they're doing, that they're so afraid to even ask. And that sense of invisibility, that sense that my pain isn't registering, is a very, very harmful aspect of what people are going through right now. And it's a form of anti-Palestinian racism that people are speaking to. The fact that many folks we've heard from are saying that they have to hide their Palestinian identity because of how negative people perceive it due to, again, those very harmful narratives online that describe, for example, demonstrators as all supporting terrorism, when that's the furthest thing from the truth. People want to support human rights for everyone. And so, in a moment like this, it is about talking to each other. It's about building or rebuilding relationships with your colleagues, with your neighbours, with your fellow classmates. And it's leaning into those personal relationships, I think, that will get us through a moment like this.

MG: Amira Elhawaby, we'll leave it there. I'm really glad to have you here. Thank you very much.

AMIRA ELHAWABY: Thanks so much, Matt.

MG: Amira Elhawaby is Canada's special representative on combating Islamophobia. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRISTIAN WHITE: We hear about our ancestors adventures, but I said we could make our own adventures. Our history isn't, doesn't stop 150 years ago. It continues with us. People are used to going on boats with motors on them. All you hear is that drone of the engine and you're always in a rush to get somewhere. But being on the canoe is a whole different feeling, like reconnecting to the waters, your ancestors. And it's a good feeling.

[Music: Theme]

MG: The renowned Haida artist Christian White takes us into his carving studio where he and his team put in the final touches on a 50 foot red cedar canoe. Hand-carved. We caught up with him in Haida Gwaii as that team was in the final push to get the canoe done before it launched. It is a beautiful piece of work and you will hear all about it and hear about what the meaning of these canoes is to Haida culture. That's coming up. As well, another looming disruption in Canada's airline industry, a different way of travelling, this time Air Canada, in a labour dispute with pilots, what it means for air travel in this country and for your tickets if you are meant to fly in the next couple of weeks. Stay tuned. That's coming up in about 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway, this is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stick around.

[Music: Fades up]

Carving a 50-foot canoe from a massive red cedar

Guests: Christian White

MG: Hello again, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Driving along a residential street in Old Masset, Haida Gwaii, it's not hard to spot a workshop big enough to house a massive canoe. In the yard around it, there are huge pieces of cedar from trees that must have been hundreds of years old. There's a sign that says, 'Please do not share photos of the canoe steaming process on social media at this time.' Get a little closer to the shed and you can hear the activity inside. It's all hands-on deck this week to get the special canoe ready for a launch, which is just a few days away.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRISTIAN WHITE: So, yeah, it's been a hive of activity for the last several months. My name's Christian White Kilthguulans. We should, maybe we could go outside here just to be a little quieter. You know, we got some [unclear.]

MG: Christian White is a renowned Haida artist. He's known for preserving and reviving traditional Haida practices. We head outside to talk where it's quieter next to a giant cedar stump lying on its side.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: Tell us what's happening in that shed right now.

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Well, we're coming to the completion of a red cedar canoe carving project that we've been working on for several months. The canoe measures 50 feet long, and it's a little over five feet wide. Many hands have worked on the canoe. I have eight students and six apprentices working with me and also my brother Derek, who's a master carver himself. I had the vision for this project several years ago, and I went to the forest and selected the tree. At first I was looking at it as a war canoe, and as I progressed through the project working with my students and they said, We don't go to war anymore. And then I thought, what can I call it if it's not a war canoe? And I thought of, the beloved canoe. So, Tluuwee Kwiiyaas is the name I'm giving the canoe in the Haida language.

MG: How do you go about selecting the tree for a canoe like this?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Like, over the years it's been very difficult to find suitable trees, cedar to carve a canoe. Over 80 per cent of the forests were cut in the most viable areas. And so, it makes it very difficult to find the cedars. I've gone into the forests for the past 30 some years looking for cedars, for a canoe, for totem poles, for Haida houses, just on my own, really. It's very difficult to find these trees. You know, thousands and thousands and thousands of trees have been cut down that were probably very suitable for canoe carving. And so, I've had to deal with what I could get. We're bringing a new life to the cedar. It was stood as a tree for over 600 years. So, before the time Christopher Columbus came into the Western Hemisphere, it was standing here on Haida Gwaii. And so, it's stood the test of time through those generations. It was kind of on an edge of a cut block. So, it's possible that it could have been taken at any moment. The winds could have taken it down, and another tree that had been cut down nearby had shattered into many, many pieces. So, this tree, the cedar, come down safely. It's quite a process just to bring it here. And quite a cost. Many of our people can't afford that costs that are involved with getting cedars and then carrying it into a project such as a totem pole or a long house or a canoe. And the canoes are very special to me. My late father, Morris White, Chief Edinsu, he initiated us into canoe carving around 1985. My brothers and I and our friends, we just gathered around him like waves coming around in him and working with him on his dream, really, to create Haida canoes. It was like a traditional way of learning. He was our elder, even though at that time he was probably just in his mid-fifties. But he had the wisdom of, you know, decades of his life here on Haida Gwaii, stories that passed down through him. He was a very humble man, but people knew he was a born leader in this way of teaching.

MG: What do you think you learned from him?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Well, he was the first one to teach me to carve at the young age of maybe 12 years old. My brothers and I and, of course, our sisters were there with us and we learned his style of carving. But he also taught us to learn our own style within the style. That's something that you can't learn in school. It's something that is passed down from generation to generation. I'd say the responsibility fell upon me to continue his work and to pass the the teachings down to the next generation.

MG: This is the first canoe to be carved in your family in some time.

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Yeah. Thirty one years. Yes, it's been 31 years. And when I think about it, I'm actually at the same age as he was when he carved his last canoe. Around-- he was around 62 years old.

MG: And you did that with him as well, right?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Yes. And it's kind of a-- just a coincidence that he he carved his last canoe when he was 62. But, you know, I hope this isn't my last canoe. But one reason there's so few canoes being made nowadays is it's very hard work, very, very backbreaking work to create one of these canoes, even with some modern tools.

[Sounds: Wacking]

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Well, you know, my favourite sound though is to hear the adzes. All the different adzes the students are wielding and the chisels just slicing through the wood. That's what I like to hear. You know, it's like music to my ears.

MG: Can you talk a little bit about how you, I mean, the carving is one thing, but when you get this tree here, how-- the stages that it goes through, because there are various stages for it to become that what we just saw briefly inside the shed.

CHRISTIAN WHITE: You know, well, after we get it to the site and, you know, we're starting the project and then we have to determine like, the centre of the log, we have to roll it around to the best side because the log isn't perfect. It's a part of nature that's growing for hundreds of years. So, we roll it around trying to determine which side is going to be the upside, which the sides going be the downside. Where is the centre going to be? And of course, you know, when you're dealing with a 50 foot cedar log that's over five feet wide, it's a very heavy piece of wood and could be very dangerous. So, we've invented ways to help with that, even though we're basically using leverage to turn the log over. And you know, of course, we use some modern devices, but, you know, we think about our ancestors. How did they do this in the forest by hand with a minimum amount of crew? But I've heard those stories and, you know, that's something that I'd like to do in the future before I get too old is go carve one right into, in the forest. It's not like nowadays where you could go there with a chainsaw and cut it down in less than a half an hour. Like, or an hour at the most. In those days it would take, you know, a day or two or if not longer. And then that's just to cut it down.

MG: When you had the shape of it done, what went through your mind?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: To me, whenever I think about it really is I'm actually humbled. I'm really actually humbled with what our ancestors did before. And you know, how, you know how it was so routine for them. But for us it's so difficult. But, you know, after, you know, after everything, you know, the, you know, the dust cleared and everything, and then I start to think, this is perfect. You know, this is the way it's supposed to be. And yeah, so I was quite happy. Satisfied.

MG: How would you describe what the canoes mean to the Haida?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Well, you know, it's a symbol. It's a symbol of freedom, you know, just like a totem pole or one of our traditional houses. It's a symbol of our culture. It's a some symbol of pride. Look, like when I was a kid, really, we didn't really know what being Haida was. We start getting glimpses of it when we were young, you know, when we first seen the first totem pole being raised in 1969, right nearby our house and was carved by Robert Davidson. And so... and then we saw elders and younger people making regalia and wearing their traditional regalia and singing the songs. So, it was a long time, really. It's been developing for the last 55 years as the pride in our culture. I know our people had been made to feel ashamed of who they were for decades, but Haida were always very proud and always thought of themselves as equal to anybody in the world and never bowed down to anybody. Now we've come to a position where B.C. has recognized our title to Haida Gwaii. This is another symbolic event really, to show that we are still here, we still have a living culture and we're passing it down to the next generation.

MG: What do you see? I mean, we're here on this site and there's young people and kids. They're running around. And I mean, it's busy with with the community. What do you see as your responsibility to that next generation?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Well, you know, I've actually, I've been doing this really for 25 years and I was just driven to do it. Felt like my hands were being guided. And it was just like, I would have a material in front of me, like a whalebone or argillite or ivory, and I would just be able to just make something out of out of the metal, out of copper. And there was just something. It's like I was watching myself do it. I'm not formally educated, but I'm culturally educated. Like I often sat at the tables with the elders and hearing them speak Haida language, I didn't understand much of it. Every once in a while they'd speak English and then I would be able to understand what they were talking about.

MG: When the canoe is done, what will it be used for?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Well, I want to travel. Really. I'd like to take it on a canoe journey. I've been on many, many canoe journeys over the years, mainly going to our Yakoun River and then going to Hydaburg, Alaska. And then also travelling down the coast to Bella Bella. But now we have a bigger canoe. Maybe we could travel even further south. Well, Sunshine Coast, first of all, and then Puget Sound and then everyplace in between. And maybe even down-- like, our ancestors, they were known to travel down to California to get abalone shells. And then there's stories about where people even went as far south as Peru. And, you know, we travelled to other places, too. Hawaii, Japan. And so, that's all in our histories of our travels. Sometimes by accident and sometimes on purpose. You know, I think about that as an adventure. And I always say that, you know, we hear about our ancestors adventures. But I said we could make our own adventures. You know, our history is, it doesn't stop 150 years ago. It continues with us and also to travel to our villages around Haida Gwaii that have been unoccupied for 200 years or more. And so, that's one of my dreams too, is to start to raise our monuments in those villages. Many of our people have never been to their ancestral village.

MG: Can we go in and see the canoe? Yeah? Okay.

[Sounds: Machines buzzing, wacking]

CHRISTIAN WHITE: So, this is my father's first canoe, and we started it back in 1985. The 1989, we took this one to Alaska. Hydaburg, Alaska. It was the first time I was out on the open water in the canoe, huge long waves. I was on a canoe for 18 hours. So, this is our current canoe here. Kwiiyaas. And you could see it's a lot larger, a lot bigger log. This tree wasn't perfect, but by the time we're done, it'll be perfect. And it's just like a human being. We're only perfect when we're a baby. Then we grow up and we got, we get slowly corrupted by the world. But there's ways to really, to heal from that, too. And I think this canoe is helping us heal. I think I've grown a lot during this process. And so, this is a healing thing for me.

MG: How much more has to be done before it launches?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Well, we have to, there's going to be a design painted on the canoe, on the front and the back. So, we're going to paint till probably 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning until it's done. And then we have to flip it upright again. And then basically we have to attach the front piece and the... so, the bow piece and the stern piece. And that gives it a nice flair in the front.

MG: It's huge. How are you going to, how will this be turned over?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: I'm hoping like 100 people will come in here and carry it out or more. But I imagine there's going to be a thousand people around. So, I think we could we could do that. That's going to be exciting. You know, it'll be a way to show our strength and our unity, and work like a team.

MG: It really is an incredible piece. When you were out, you've been in these. So, what is that like?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: Well, it's a whole different experience. Of course, you know these canoes you're on there with, like anywhere from six to ten other people, or even this one is going to have 20 people on or more. So, and then you're close to the water. You know, you could reach down, touch the water when you're paddling and you could feel the water going by you. It's just a unique experience. People are used to going on boats with motors on them. All you hear that are drone of the engine. And you're always in a rush to get somewhere. But being on the canoe is a whole different feeling, like reconnecting to the waters, you know? The ancestors and the... It's a good feeling. It's good feeling. You know, some people might not be able to understand that, but for me, it gives me a good feeling of pride and connection.

MG: What do you think it's going to mean? I mean, when-- there's a lot of people who are coming in for this. What will it mean?

CHRISTIAN WHITE: It's something that we have to do more often, really. You know, I look at my ancestors and they had villages with dozens, if not 100 totem poles. And you imagine that each one of those totem poles had a celebration. There was a feast involved. There was performances involved, there were statements, there was names being passed down. And so, that's the same thing we're doing, really. You know, like, I guess in, you know, non-native culture, you know, you liken it to the Stanley Cup or, you know, the Grey Cup or something like that, you know, which I have no connection with at all. So, you know, for us, this is it here. My wife and I and my friends, we attend other Potlatchs on the coast of other First Nations. Other such as the Heiltsuk and the Namgis. And what gets to me really is the culture and the ceremony. It's something we've lost part of it. What we incorporate more and more is like the joy of it. You know, the pride and the young people, you know, they just love it, you know. You know, and then it's when we're doing this, you know, there's results. The regalia is being created. Oh, my wife's going to—[unclear.]

CANDACE WEIR: ...is the boundaries.

MG: Yeah.

CANDACE WEIR: We've got to do the design.

MG: Yes.

CANDACE WEIR: And then it's lunchtime.

MG: That's Candace Weir, she's Christian's wife. She's reminding him that he still has lots of work to do, and she laughs when someone calls her a force.

SOUNDCLIP

CANDACE WEIR: Am I a force?

SPEAKER: There's no real word for you.

MG: She's helping organize everything. Christian's time, all the helpers buzzing around, and the festivities around the launch in a few days.

SOUNDCLIP

CANDACE WEIR: I feel like I didn't do a lot. [Unclear] about lots of work to boss people around.

MG: Right now, it's lunch time. Candace and Christian's niece, Juliet, is serving it up.

SOUNDCLIP

CANDACE WEIR: All right, can you make one for him? You want to ask if he wants everything?

JULIET: You want everything?

MG: She carefully scoops ground beef, tomatoes and lettuce into bags of doritos.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIET: Here you go!

MG: Juliet's family is visiting from Metro Vancouver for the launch. Everyone on Haida Gwaii is talking about this launch. It is a big event.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: Saturday will be something.

CANDACE WEIR: Mhmm. And I ordered this. So it's coming.

MG: Blue skies.

CANDACE WEIR: It's just warming up. It will come. Even the skies listen to Candace.

MG: She was right, of course. The sky cooperated. Dozens of people carried the finished canoe down to the water just across the road from the workshop and launched it into the ocean. Thank you to Christian White for giving us a little bit of time as he was scrambling to get the canoe finished. If you missed any of the stories from our trip to Haida Gwaii or you want to see photos from this magical place, head to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent.

Air Canada passengers anxious about potential strike

Guests: Duncan Dee

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway. If you happen to be booked on an Air Canada flight in the coming days, pretty good chance you've been refreshing your ticket details online. The airline and the union representing its pilots are in the midst of labour negotiations. Both sides can issue 72-hour work actions as early as Sunday. Flights could be cancelled as early as tomorrow. Duncan Dee is Air Canada's former chief operating officer. Duncan, good morning.

DUNCAN DEE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: As you understand it, what is at the heart of these negotiations between Air Canada and its pilots?

DUNCAN DEE: The heart of the negotiations appears to be wages. We are now at a time when pilots have been settling for significant increases, not just in the United States, but also here in Canada. And Air Canada's pilots haven't been at the negotiating table for about a decade. So, they're really looking for a catch up and an opportunity to regain some gains which they lost during this period of high inflation and pilot shortages.

MG: As you mentioned, they had a ten-year contract, so that's expired. They're now negotiating. The talk is that in some ways, and you've hinted at this, they are trying to reach wages that are competitive with or comparable to what pilots in the United States get. Is that the case?

DUNCAN DEE: That appears to be where their position is at this time. They're basically citing collective agreements and recent results of negotiations in the United States to justify their position at the bargaining table of increased wages.

MG: Obviously, you're not there at the bargaining table and you're the former chief operating officer. But do you understand, I mean, what are the pilots asking for exactly? Do we know?

DUNCAN DEE: What we have seen is they've pulled out basically the wage rates at airlines like Delta Airlines and United Airlines, where pilots recently achieved raises in the vicinity of 30 to 40 per cent. So, you know, these are pilots who are earning, you know, upwards of four, 500,000 U.S. dollars a year on the, you know, based on their flying and years of experience.

MG: In May, WestJet reached a deal with its pilots over similar issues. The pay increase there was something like 24 per cent over four years. Does that set a bit of a benchmark in terms of what we might see in these negotiations?

DUNCAN DEE: Matt, it certainly does. And based on what we've seen reported so far, Air Canada management has already tabled an offer of 30 per cent raises over three years. So, you know, enhancing even what the WestJet pilots, who frankly are also represented by the exact same union accepted several months ago. Som it would appear that, you know, they're already partway there, but the union has rejected that 30 per cent over three years.

MG: In the meantime, as these negotiations go on, as I said, both sides can issue a 72 hour work action notice as early as Sunday, whether there's a strike coming or a potential lockout. And Air Canada could begin cancelling flights as of tomorrow. Can you help me understand that?

DUNCAN DEE: Yeah. So, what ends up happening is during that 72 hour period, most airlines attempt to reduce their schedule so that the aircraft crews and maintenance requirements for those aircrafts in the event of a strike are in their home bases. So, in the event of a restart, they know where the aircraft are, they know where the crew are, the aircraft are being properly maintained, and they can relaunch their network much more quickly. When WestJet had their mechanic strike, for example, they didn't anticipate the strike. And so they ended up with a disorderly wind down and it took them three weeks to get their network stabilised after the strike was over.

MG: So, if there's a strike or a lockout, even if it's a short one, I mean, what impact would a labour disruption have if you have those aircrafts that are parked in their home bases?

DUNCAN DEE: Massive. In the case of Air Canada, a strike or lockout would result in 110,000 travellers every single day missing their flights. You know, you would have cancellations of about 680, 670 to 80 flights every single day. And for certain parts of the country, the impact is disproportionate. You know, you've got the Air Canada Network, which is heavily concentrated east of Toronto, so regional Ontario, Quebec and Atlantic Canada. And in many of those communities, Air Canada is really the only viable option for a daily flight service. So, I think that the impact will be felt nationally, but it will be particularly hard hit in eastern Canada.

MG: And presumably, if you turn the machine off, it takes a while to turn that machine back on and get it going again.

DUNCAN DEE: Exactly. I mean, it doesn't, it's not something where you flip a switch and things are back to normal.

MG: The Canadian Chamber of Commerce, in the context of what you just said, sent a letter to the Labour Minister, Steve MacKinnon, arguing that it won't just be passengers who are impacted. The supply chain for goods as well. And the chamber asked Government for a plan to be in place should this work action happen. What would you like to see from government in this case?

DUNCAN DEE: Well, I think that the government should be leaning heavily on both management and the pilots union to come to a deal before a strike takes place. You know, this is a regular bargaining of a collective agreement, which happens, you know, every single day in this country. It should not be this controversial. We should not have to shut down. You know, the air transportation network for most of the country to achieve, you know, a fair deal for management and a good deal and an excellent deal for the pilots. So, I think that there's time for this to work itself out. There's time for the negotiations to succeed. We saw it with WestJet, and so they should do it here.

MG: In the meantime, we just have a minute or so left. It's already really expensive to fly in this country. As you said, there are certain regions that are disproportionately going to be affected if there's a strike or a lockout. We've spoken with the Competition Bureau who are trying to figure out ways to perhaps increase competition. They made those recommendations before, and nothing really happened. What do you think the disruption even already that's being hinted at-- what does it say about the state of air travel in this country?

DUNCAN DEE: I think it says that air travel in this country is extremely tenuous. I think that we have an air transportation system that is operating in the 21st century but was built in the last century. You know, I think we have got a system in the country that is creaking, and it needs incredible leadership to get it up to snuff.

MG: And more competition.

DUNCAN DEE: Well, perhaps more competition, but just basically a relook at the policies to ensure that we don't end up in a situation where the air transportation system in this country can get potentially shut down multiple times a year, as we've seen so far in 2024.

MG: In the meantime, if you have a ticket to fly on Air Canada next week, one word of advice for that passenger?

DUNCAN DEE: You know, it takes more than one word of advice. But really, you know, keep watching and keep listening to the news because you're going to be up very late on Tuesday night.

MG: And maybe make alternate plans.

DUNCAN DEE: Oh, if you can make alternate plans, you should definitely explore those alternate plans. But unfortunately, Matt, for many parts of the country, there are no alternatives to Air Canada service.

MG: Duncan, thank you very much for this.

DUNCAN DEE: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Duncan Dee is our Canada's former chief operating officer. The latest on those labour negotiations can be found on the CBC News website, cbcnew.ca.

[Music: Theme]

MG: That is The Current for this Thursday, the 12th of September. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll see you tomorrow.

[Music: Fades up]

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Thursday September 12, 2024 Full Transcript

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