NDP MPP criticizes Ford for not calling state of emergency as wildfires burn across Northern Ontario

Guests: Matthew Hoppe, Sol Mamakwa

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Extreme heat, out of control wildfires, choking smoke. First it was British Columbia. Now it's happening in northwestern Ontario as well. So far this summer, Ontario has seen 900 wildfires, almost double the annual average. Around 3000 people have been evacuated from First Nations communities sitting in harm's way, including more than 500 residents from Deer Lake First Nation. They were flown thousands of kilometres southeast to Cornwall, Ontario.

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Must be at home keeping my son and I did what I could for him, like I just got on the first plane I could and were worried about how are we going to stay here forever. We want to go home.

RB: Some First Nations leaders and opposition politicians want Ontario Premier Doug Ford to declare a state of emergency. So far, he has refused to do so. But he had this to say after meeting with community leaders and evacuees in Thunder Bay yesterday.

TAPE: DOUG FORD: There's a little confusion what a state of emergency is. It's not going to add any more resources. It's basically the province coming in, taking over everything. We believe and working in collaboration, cooperation with First Nations, with municipalities. That's the only difference... There's there's already emergency orders put in place. So it's not holding back any resources. We will put all the resources we have. I won't spare a penny.

RB: Matthew Hope is the CEO of the independent First Nations Alliance. That's a group that supports five indigenous communities in northern Ontario. And he is helping to coordinate some of the evacuation efforts. We've reached him in Thunder Bay. Matthew, good morning.

MATHEW HOPPE: Good morning there Robin.

RB: Ontario's premier says all available, all available resources are being used to fight these fires and assist evacuees. Are you getting all the help you need?

MATHEW HOPPE: I think we're trying to get our -- we are receiving a bit of the help we need. I think the biggest challenge that we have right now is additional host capacity for all these evacuees that could be moving out very quickly in a very short period of time because of the current fire threat. And with that also is the wraparound services.

RB: And what does that mean? The wraparound services.

MATHEW HOPPE: Wraparound services, so it's like a typical you know, people talk about going on vacation. They've got a very, really good French activities. They have a certain end date with this kind of capacity, kind of the wraparound services that provides all additional supports needs to keep people safe. One security patrol liaison's, those kind of folks, crisis workers. And really it's just kind of walking through and being, providing additional supports for people who are in these kind of conditions being displaced and then helping them get through that very tough period.

RB: We'll discuss where evacuees are going in just a minute. But I wonder if you can help our listeners just understand describe the situation that these communities are facing. How close are some of the fires?

MATHEW HOPPE: Yeah, fires range from three (20?) kilometres to seven kilometres, everything in between. And it's not just a question of distance location, but it's the drought conditions, the lack of water in the forecast. But then at the same time, too, is that you can't go and return people back before it's safe to do so. And unfortunately, [[you know, with]] the guys are doing the forest fires, courageous efforts, they're just stretched super thin. We have active fires, large fires that have no resources being deployed because all the other threats are currently ongoing. So you try and deal with spot fires' initial attack and a lot of those kind of things, but a lot of good people helping out, but it's just not enough people resources.

RB: And I imagine in some of these really remote communities, some of the fly in communities, it's it's quite difficult. You'd have to wait until there's a break in the smoke to be able to get in and evacuate these people. What are some of the challenges you're facing on that front?

MATHEW HOPPE: Well, when is the host capacity where you can put them and then The Current the downstream services, but more importantly is, you know, moving the 3000 people from [[the camps]] in particular. Right. You can't do that in a day. So there's a lot of lead time. It's like a thousand people a day, Hercules aircraft, everything in between and then all of just at the same time to assist those people resources and then just kind of managing and being aware of all the other ongoing threats. And it's a daily basis and it's increasing.

RB: What do people tell you about what the situation was like just before they left? I mean, is it quite smoke filled? Are they having trouble breathing or what are you hearing from people?

MATHEW HOPPE: It's hit and miss and it it changes day by day. And this is a bit of the problem with prolonged forest fires and situations. But evacuations that some days are super smoky; the next day looking pretty nice with the wind conditions that change and push the smoke north, south, away from the community. And then other times you have fires there blowing smoke right into the community. So you have a lot of moving pieces and different dynamics that are to be honest, out of our control. However, we have to take advantage of where there are opportunities to move people and making sure they're going to be safe and wherever they going to be displaced to.

RB: Matthew, are you hearing from people who won't leave, who don't want to go?

MATHEW HOPPE: I think there's always kind of a few small population segments to say, hey, we'll never go kind of thing. But I can tell you from previous experience, back in twenty nineteen, we did this twice for full evacuations. When you see dense smoke and you see the flames. Yeah. You're going to jump on the plane pretty quick. Hmm.

RB: Some evacuees have been transferred thousands of kilometres away, and Premier Doug Ford says the province is searching for more accommodation even as far as the greater Toronto area. Some evacuees are saying that's not only traumatic to leave their homes, their small communities, but now they're facing this culture shock of being in a city for the first time in a pretty long time. What impact is this having on people?

MATHEW HOPPE: It's having a tremendous impact in terms of, you know, mental health support, physical, and to be honest, anxiety and really what comes down to is -- and, of course, frustration. People want to go back home with their lives if they're evacuees being hosted somewhere. Some of them, it's over 12 days now. Right. Other places, communities, see the threat, the threat, the smoke is choking them kind of thing. But also they're doing the best to kind of keep indoors and they need to go and they want to get to. The problem is just a fine balance of work. Do you do? And what do you do with the conditions? And it's a daily situation, ongoing monitoring.

RB: You mentioned the mental health. What supports are there for people? Is that part of that wraparound support that you were talking about that is still needed?

MATHEW HOPPE: Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes, you know, people are going through very tough situations, traumatic. And a lot of it's just the unknown of when am I going to go back home, right? There's a lot of things and time to sit in of four walls in a room with a family. And it's not a vacation. It's not easy. It's a it's a situation where, you know, we don't want to do it at the same time to the alterior kind of life and limb and fire threat and smoke, it's better. But at the same time too you know, eventually people get tired of it.

RB: Why do people have to go so far from their home communities? Is it just lack of capacity or lack of planning? Or how do you see this?

MATHEW HOPPE: I think it's maybe a little bit of both and, you know, coming out of a pandemic and COVID and everyone's tired and lots of moving pieces, probably soak up slowly. And then you factor in, you know, hey, people are just tired. People want to help out, but to be honest, there's just lack of resources and lack of people. But more importantly, it's like I think there's we got to look at things differently going into a more of a northern First Nations, think og First Nations kind of approach. Because what we're doing now is, even though we appreciate the help from our southern neighbours, we got to do things differently. We got to do it next time because, you know, we can't keep doing this kind of last minute approach and running around kind of thing.

RB: When you say you want to do things differently, a First Nations led approach, what would that look like in your eyes?

MATHEW HOPPE: I think what I see with that is dedicated strategic resources, right, for infrastructure, evacuation centre, hub capacity, dedicated. So that one, you know, we can take care of our own first nation people, but at the same time too, not be kind of a drain on taxpayers and how that perception of impacting current operations of facilities and stuff. And there's always people questioning, well, how is this going to impact our hospital, kind of been taken in a pandemic environment, plus all those moving pieces. Lots of questions. Now, what I can say is that we do our best in host capacity in terms of if not taking care of over 600 directly of these evacuees. We do our best to minimise those situations and provide those wraparound services to keep people safe.

RB: If what you're saying is that you need a First Nations led strategy for for the future if more fires keep happening. Am I reading between the lines correctly that you have lost faith in the provincial and federal governments?

MATHEW HOPPE: Let's just say it was strong. I appreciate the effort, everyone there too at the same time, but I do know that some of the policies and some of the bigger picture pieces do provide barriers to keeping people safe and doing it in a very quick manner. And sometimes when you have several layers of bureaucracy and structure, sometimes that's a benefit. But also in terms of, in times of crisis, again, being lean and mean and nimble and of course, being very culturally appropriate. But to be honest, having the experience that we have gained over the many, many years. Yeah, we've got to do a rethink on this one.

RB: Thank you for your time this morning. It was good to talk to you. I hope you're coping.

MATHEW HOPPE: Hey, thank you very much. Appreciate your time.

RB: That's Matthew Hoppe, the CEO of the independent First Nations Alliance. He's been helping to coordinate evacuation efforts amid the ongoing wildfires in northwestern Ontario. Sol Mamakwa has been speaking to evacuees from indigenous communities across northern Ontario as well. He's the NDP member of provincial parliament for the Northwest Ontario, riding of Kiiwetinoong. He and his party have been calling on the premier to declare a state of emergency. And we have reached some Mikawa in Kenora. Good morning.

SOL MAMAKWA: Good morning, Robin.

RB: So Premier Doug Ford is saying that he will not spare a penny to fight these fires and affected communities. Why don't you think that's good enough?

SOL MAMAKWA: You know, it's certainly something that I hear all the time from this government, it's certainly something I hear from government, from from him as well. And I think there's more work that needs to be done when we talk about what you know, what needs to be done. I think if it was in a different, if I was municipalities and he won't call the state the declaration of emergency in our area in Ontario just because of that, and I think, you know, if we if we were with municipalities, I think he would call it. But because we First Nations, he will not.

RB: What do you saying there, exactly?

SOL MAMAKWA: I think I've seen it I've seen it happen over and over again. I mean, certainly it's something that we continue to see when we talk about indigenous people in Ontario and sometimes the issues that we see, issues that we face, sometimes they do not want to come in and... It kind of reflects on, you know, we're treated differently. It's like a different Ontario. It's like a different Canada for us. And that's the way it's been, their policy approaches to indigenous people.

RB: So this comes down to racism.

SOL MAMAKWA: Yes. It exists, I've seen it firsthand.

RB: What are you hearing from communities, the evacuees who you are talking to on that front? Do they agree with you?

SOL MAMAKWA: Yes, I think we've because because, you know, there are a lot of things that happen during an evacuation and people don't realise what the evacuees go through, you know, like when you move down. I mean, this forest fire season is. You know, it's in a crisis, we are in a crisis, within a crisis, within a crisis, because there are other things happening: a water crisis, there's a mental health crisis, there's an infrastructure crisis, a housing crisis. And I think, for example, like, you know, [unintelligible]. When I was talking to one of the family members and their loved one, their daughter had died not through the fires but, you know, things are happening when when there's evacuation. They lost their daughter on July the 1st. And there's just finally having the funeral today. That's how long it took, almost one month. And then there's another family that got repatriated to Thunder Bay. This was two days ago. I met with the man that I was walking on at the hotel and they just got out like I see three kids, about four or five and six years old. And they had to ride around 10 o'clock in the morning. And they left the day before from Cornwall. And they took the bus to Cochrane and then they drove all night to too. So that's the treatment that our evacuees are getting. Like, mind you, I mean, some of the community, some of the host committees are treating our people very well. They're taking of them and the wraparound services that are there, whether it's mental health, you know, health security liaison and... But the repatriation process is really messed up.

RB: I'd like to talk to you about your calls for a declaration of a state of emergency, because you, your party, other indigenous leaders want the province to do that. You might have heard Premier Doug Ford say in that clip that he feels that people are confused about what it really is. And his his minister of Northern Development and Indigenous Affairs, Greg Rickford, has said there is already an emergency operation order that covers most of northern Ontario that gives the province sweeping powers to close roadways and airports for for firefighting efforts. I want to play a clip for you, because Greg Rickford was on CBC's Power and Politics programme and he was asked why his government was resisting calls for this provincial state of emergency to be declared. Here's what he said.

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GREG RICKFORD: We're not resisting them, frankly. We'll be in a position to do that if and when it's warranted. This is not without precedent. I know some people have tried to compare it to British Columbia. The situation is not like that on the ground. And I've had clear dialogue with various folks who've had those conversations, including, and importantly, grand chief Albin Fiddler, whose team does an extraordinary work on this. At this point, the only declaration of a province wide emergency under the Emergency Management Civil Protection Act would be to give the province these exceptional powers over municipalities to allocate people. And so far we've not had that problem.

RB: So so the minister is saying that the only thing the state of emergency would do is give the province exceptional powers. Yet you have talked before about how efforts need to be indigenous led. We just heard that from Matthew Hopp as well. So can you help us understand what you think this declaration can achieve?

SOL MAMAKWA: Certainly. I think I was in Red Lake last week and I went to the fire centre there. And I know at that time there were over I think around 150 active fires at that time and that they were just popping up everywhere. And and at that time, you know, they were short of resources, meaning water bombers. They were short of helicopters, they were short of firefighters. And all they were doing was prioritising. And, you know, and that's what that's all they were doing. And not only that, there weren't any beds available to anywhere in Ontario. You know, they never provide the number of beds that are available. Like if you asked the government today, how many beds are available right now? They would not be able to tell you. And I think we need to be able to have a again, if they were given those powers and, you know, essentially to give powers as well to municipalities, but also, you know, First Nations and push nation organisations such as Aetna and also other municipalities to have that a first nations-led emergency management process. And that's not happening. And I think, you know, we need a first nation direct response. And, you know, like we go through this year after year, some of the, you know, decisions are fiscally driven. And that's not right. And I think, you know, like, you know, like if there's no real good job, because right now they're they're hosting within the host community. And, you know, it's not they're not they're not a municipality, but they're a first nation tribal council that's providing services to their communities. And we need to move forward in a good way to make sure that there's proper resources and, I think that's really, you know, even though our firefighters in our communities I remember talking to a chief and at Lake Russell Leslie told me, I have 37 firefighters that are ready to go, but they're not certified. We need recertification and we have these -- again, we welcome the forest fires from another country, whether it's Mexico, we welcome that. But also we have our own people that are firefighters and you know that know the terrain, that know the land better than anybody else in Ontario. So we need to activate those. And that's not happening.

RB: When you say, for instance, there's a shortage of helicopters, I mean, what's your understanding of that? Of course, we know that it has been a terrible fire season across different parts of Canada. Are they just sitting there waiting to be used? Or I mean, I'm a little bit confused on on what when you say that, you know, those resources are not readily available. And yet Greg Rickford is saying no resource has been spared.

SOL MAMAKWA: I mean, like I always see it happen, whereby they say things in public with words are not true and I see that happen over and over again. They namedrop first nation leaders as well that they're talking to. But at the same token, you know that you know that First Nation leadership is asking for the same things I'm asking for. And that's why we need to be able to move forward and, you know, provide these resources and make sure that we have -- because we're going through this year after year. And I remember I was on one of the provincial emergency calls and they started working. I remember hearing them: we started working on this two months ago about trying to get, you know, beds across Ontario. Two months ago. That sort of work should have been done, you know, a long time ago. And I think and that's where we need to be able to move forward and, you know, have a very, a plan that, you know, first nations-led. Then I believe I was reading, you know, some of the proposal that was provided to Doug Ford yesterday by a grand chief. And, you know, they just got to, you know, provide, you know, what can those recommendations in their plan. And we need that.

RB: OK. Sol Mamakwa , thank you for your time this morning.

SOL MAMAKWA: Thank you so much.

RB: Sol Mikawa the NDP MP for the writing of questioning. He was in Canada this morning. We did invite Ontario Premier Doug Ford for an interview, did not hear back. We did also request Ontario Solicitor General Sylvia Jones and Greg Rickford, the Minister for Northern Development and Indigenous Affairs, both declined the opportunity.

How to repair friendships strained by different perspectives on the pandemic

Guests: Katie O’byrne, Miriam Kirmayer, Taryn Meles

RB: Covid hospitalisation numbers are down. Summer is well underway and public restrictions are being lifted in much of the country, now might be the moment to reconnect with some old friends or see family for the first time in months. But what if the pandemic has caused some deep rifts? Kate O'Byrne is a registered nurse in Peace River, Alberta, and she's been re-evaluating some of her relationships. Hi, Katie.

KATIE O'BRYNE: Hi. Thanks for having me.

RB: First of all, let's talk about your job. How close up have you seen covid during this pandemic?

KATIE O'BRYNE: So I feel like I feel like my whole life has been covid for the last 18 months. I've worked in public health. I was involved in cold blood testing, covid, vaccination, case management. And my other job is working in emergency. And I have seen people very sick. I've seen the devastation that covid can cause. So it's just been a complete onslaught of covid.

RB: Given that, what tension has that created in your life outside work when you're having conversations with family and friends?

KATIE O'BRYNE: I've definitely had people ask about hospital hospital capacity and they want to see numbers. You know, the hospitals aren't overrun and definitely people want to argue about about covid. And I find it really it's very draining because as I say, as a health care worker, you see real life, you see real time. What's happening is Kobani. And if you're not in that setting, you just really don't get a full scope of what's actually happening.

RB: And these conversations, you know, we're saying with people, but they're with family and friends that you've had these conversations.

KATIE O'BRYNE: A lot of it has been with family and friends, and it's kind of drawn a line in the sand during the pandemic because it's becoming harder and harder to try to argue, to want to argue and engage with people who just, you know, want to tell you that it's not real or the vaccination is not safe or things like that. It's just becoming harder and harder to want to have those conversations as the pandemic stretches on.

RB: How did you deal with that at first? I mean, would you say, hey, listen, I'm a nurse, I work in this field. I see this up close. Did you find that they gave it any credibility or was it, you know, did you encounter a wall on the other side?

KATIE O'BRYNE: I think I think I was optimistic at the beginning, because I'm a nurse, you know, we do everything evidence based. We don't do anything just because. And so I was getting the information as well from, you know, the governing bodies that are working closely with covid. And so I was trying to pass on the information just to try to educate people. I mean, there was a lot of misinformation on social media and things like that. And, you know, I was getting the information straight from the source. So I think at the beginning I did I was optimistic that I could have those kind of conversations. But I think as things have stretched on, people have become more set in their beliefs about covid and the conversations just get harder and harder and more argumentative and more difficult to navigate.

RB: So what have you done? How have you handled that?

KATIE O'BRYNE: But definitely stopped having some of the conversations with family and friends that, you know, where our conversations have evolved into just arguments, definitely put people, you know, kept them at a distance. We don't talk covid we, the friendships or the family linkages are very superficial at this point, just so that we're not arguing constantly. So it's really straining the relationships. And I find myself losing connexion with a few friends or family. And I find that really hard. It's a bit more isolating. And at this point, we're all really wanting some kind of connexion because we've dealt with this pandemic for months.

RB: Do you think that those relationships that have become strained, do you think that they will come back or have you said farewell to them?

KATIE O'BRYNE: It's a really good question. You know, I've had people in my family that have been very ill with covid that have been in the ICU, that have had really serious effects. And so when you talk to friends that argue about covid, that is not real and things like that, it's starting to become this very, very tough line in the sand that I'm I don't know at this point that I really want to pursue the friendship afterwards. I mean, we may come back together at some point. But, you know, when it comes to covid and if covid is still the driving force in our lives, I'm finding myself less willing to expend the energy into those kind of relationships.

RB: What is the main emotion you feel? Is it anger or is it sadness?

KATIE O'BRYNE: Feel frustrated and and I think sad, I mean, it is really is real to you, you've seen your family member go through something like that. So I think it's just frustration that, you know, the relationships have to have to be so divided.

RB: Well, Katie O'Byrne, stay with us. I'd like to bring somebody else into this conversation who's also been having similar struggles. Taryn Meles was pregnant during the pandemic and gave birth to twins a couple of months ago. Taryn, hello.

TARYN MELES: Hi, thanks so much for having me.

RB: Can you relate to what Katie has said?

TARYN MELES: I've been sitting here nodding silently with a lot of what she's been saying. It's been interesting being, you know, being pregnant and having babies during a pandemic. I mean, we were lucky that it was kind of closer to the end. You know, not that we're through it, but right now we're a lot further ahead than we were this time last year. But the stresses have been the same.

RB: Talk to us about that. What's been the toughest part of navigating relationships during this pandemic

TARYN MELES: is navigating relationships has been tricky, more so now that babies are born. It's been it's been a few months. And normally, you know, but I have my daughter in three 1/2 years ago and, you know, people came over all the time with, yes, come and visit and bring food and we'll spend hours together and hold the baby so I can go do this, that and the other thing. And now it's very structured and it's OK. You know, we really only have our closest of close supports that actually come in the house to help us with day to day things. And everybody else who's come to visit has been outdoor visits primarily.

RB: How did some of those friends and family react when you were very cautious at the beginning saying, nope, sorry, I don't feel comfortable with you holding the babies quite yet.

TARYN MELES: It was tricky. It's I mean, we haven't let too many people. It's really been, you know, the close family who we know have been fully vaccinated or outside of their two weeks from the second dose. So it was it was an adjustment. We were we were really lucky that family and friends have were understanding they didn't like it, but we were very lucky that our families just said. Yet you tell us when you're ready and we will go with what you feel comfortable with.

RB: It's interesting. I spoke to a grandfather last summer, so vaccinations were not happening at that point. And there was a real tension with his family because he said, listen, I'm in my sunset years. If I'm going to go see my grandkids, that is my choice. This is my risk. I want to do it yet. You know, my daughter in law won't let me come over. And there was a real tension there. How would you deal with that if somebody said, it's my choice, I understand the risk.

TARYN MELES: I thought about that. And the way that I see it is that everyone has the right to make their choice. You know, your body, your choice 100 percent. But anyone who chooses not to be vaccinated is impacting other people with their choice. And they have to recognise that they have to live with what that means to other people. You know, if I decided not to get vaccinated and someone said to me, you know what, I'm not comfortable being around you inside, of course, that would hurt. But at the same time, I'm making a choice for myself, for me and my body. They're making a choice for them and their kids.

RB: Have you heard anyone say anything similar to you that this is my risk? This is my choice? You're fully vaccinated. You're fine.

KATIE O'BRYNE: Absolutely. I've had that conversation multiple times. It's interesting, though, because, again, it is about consequence. You choose not to be vaccinated and the consequence is you don't get to participate in our family celebrations and things like that. And I'm always open to talk to my friends and family about the vaccine if they have questions. And I'm willing to educate. But at this point, you know, it's your decision.

RB: Katie, have you lost any friends? Have you lost any family? Has there been any irreparable damages, do you think, to to your relationships?

KATIE O'BRYNE: I don't know the irreparable you know, I'm not willing to throw the friendships away altogether. I think they're kind of put on the back burner and maybe we'll find our way back to a friendship outside of covid eventually. And if we don't, then, you know, maybe the friendship fizzles or the you know, I don't speak to the family member if things are so polarised between us. But at this point, I don't want to throw away relationships. I just kind of hold them at a distance for now.

RB: What about you, Taryn? Do you feel like there's going to be some long lasting impacts for your relationships from this pandemic?

TARYN MELES: Oh, I have no doubt. I have no doubt. I'm you know, as we're navigating friends who want to come and visit, we've kind of we've made our explanations of, you know, outsiders preferable for everyone, even if they are vaccinated, just it's summer. It's nice that everyone's stress goes down because we're we don't have to be messed up or anything like that. But I foresee, you know, if I come across people who might be choosing not to or having to navigate that conversation of, oh, hey, we haven't actually talked about if we're vaccinated or not, you know, we are. Where are you guys at that? I imagine those are going to be kind of stressful conversations. You know, I have some friends I talk to all the time, and we all got excited and we're sharing dates. I guess this is what I'm getting my vaccine and this is what I'm getting my vaccine. And those are really exciting conversations for us because it's OK. We're that much closer to being able to spend time and hug and be close. And that's great. And other friends I haven't had these conversations with. So it'll be interesting to navigate what that looks like when those situations come up.

RB: Katie, sometimes when we're talking about relationships like I'm trying to think about political terms when we think it's dangerous to only hang around if you're a conservative supporter, only hang around other conservatives. If you're a liberal supporter, you know, you should try to widen your perspective and not live inside this kind of quote unquote, filter bubble. Do you see that as the same here, that we can have people who disagree with us? Or do you think it's a whole different ballgame because this has to do with public health?

KATIE O'BRYNE: So I think that's the really big struggle. It's not just like a political party that you believe in, it's, you know, people wanting to refute the science that, you know, has been presented about covid. And we don't know everything about it. But that's certainly true. But I don't think it's the same as the political parties. It's like you say, it's public health. It's about people's health. It affects everybody in society. So I think. Yeah, it just kind of draws that line between between people and you gravitate towards people who are going to make public health choices that are more in line with keeping you safe and keeping your family safe.

RB: Katie and Taryn, thank you for your time and for sharing what are very personal experiences. Really appreciate it. Thatwas Katie O'Byrne. She's a registered nurse in Peace River, Alberta. And Taryn, the is on parental leave in Toronto, Ontario. Miriam Kollmeier is a clinical psychologist who offers counselling to friends having difficulties. She's in Ottawa. Dr. Kirmayer, hello.

TARYN MELES: Hello. Thank you for having me.

RB: What was going through your mind as you were listening to Teran and Katie?

TARYN MELES: Oh, you know, I feel so much for everyone who finds himself in this position, and I include myself in that. Right. We're all having to navigate and negotiate these differences in need and perspectives and values. And it is really hard to figure out, you know, whether we should have a conversation, what that conversation should sound like, how to set boundaries. These are all really important questions. And none of us are immune to this. Right? I mean, you know, I heard from the guest who has twins and my heart is with her because I just had a newborn as well. And a lot of those same questions and concerns have shown up in my own life, of course. And, you know, family members being disappointed and having to process that emotionally, all of us together, that has been really difficult. And there there is a sense of loss, right. About what certain life experiences should be like, what we expect them to be like, and how our realities match up to that. So I definitely relate to that on a personal level. And again, it just reflects a lot of the stories I'm hearing from other people in my clinical practise, where I work with individuals and friends who are struggling in this area.

RB: What is it about disagreements over things like masking or vaccines, physical distancing that has been particularly polarising?

TARYN MELES: Hmm. You know, part of it is certainly, you know, I think you touched on this, the idea that there are very real health consequences to another person's actions. And so I think that is in part what feels new about this current challenge that in the past we might not have seen eye to eye with somebody else, a family member, a friend. But the consequences might not have felt as significant, whereas right now they feel really wide reaching, both in terms of our individual personal lives and broader public health concerns. And so that definitely adds a layer of intensity and fear to this situation. It also reflects the reality that we are often surprised when the people closest to us see things differently. We expect our friends to be like us, to think like us. Similarity is often the route of friendship and a point of connection. And so when we suddenly find ourselves in a situation where our friends don't think like us, don't have similar views or perspectives, that can be very jarring and hurtful. And we're not often prepared when it comes to navigating those types of situations.

RB: What impact can that kind of stress have on one's mental health if they've had a big argument, say, with a friend or family member over or over something pandemic related?

TARYN MELES: Yeah, well, you know, certainly in the moment, arguments and conflicts with people that we're close to can feel very stressful at activate our stress response. It can be exhausting. You know, we can feel anxious in the moment about what we said or what we did not say or what might come up in a future conversation. But what we see is that chronic conflict in our relationships and this chronic pattern of feeling underappreciated or misunderstood or just really not seen and heard. That is where a lot of the health concerns come up when it comes to that link between our connexions and both our physical and emotional health. And so we see, for example, that having interpersonal struggles again on this ongoing chronic basis can actually increase our risk for anxiety, for depression. It can exacerbate symptoms if they're already there and make it really difficult to cope. And again, there's also this link with our physical health where we see that feeling lonely, for example, feeling misunderstood. Having this kind of chronic conflict can put us at risk for a variety of health conditions and that link between the quality of our relationships and not just the quality of our lives, but but again, our our health and our happiness is a big part of why I'm so passionate about talking about this, because I think we often overlook how strong that link really is.

RB: So how would you suggest approaching it? It was interesting to hear Katie at the beginning say that with some friends of family members, they've had to say this is off limits. We can't actually talk about covid. So let's just, you know, talk about the weather or surface things. You know, it takes a little bit of the meaningfulness out of that relashionship, but do you think that that is OK to do?

TARYN MELES: The reality is that our decisions will likely differ friendship to friendship or relationship to relationships. So for some of our conneCtions setting those boundaries and saying talking about covid, talking about the pandemic, talking about vaccines is just off limits because it's too triggering were we know where this conversation leads us. And that's not helpful both again for our well-being, but also for our relationship. And so I am seeing that this is a theme that's coming up in a lot of connexions and that can be very healthy. I will say, for other people, that doesn't work as well. And that is also OK to feel like this is something that is so substantial for me right now here. There's a lot from health care workers. This is just such a big part of my life right now that if we're not able to talk about this and if you're not able to give space for me to process how scary and frustrating and uncertain this is, then how can I possibly relate to you? So I see both ends of that spectrum as being valid. And it really is just a question of figuring out what works for us in this particular relationship.

RB: What kind of communication would work in this kind of situation? If there's somebody who, like Katie, works in the field, she's covered up close, and then there's somebody who says Novakovic is not real, is it? We're saying, OK, I'll hear you out and then just sit there and grit one's teeth and then the other person hears you. Well, how would you approach that?

TARYN MELES: Yeah, I mean, I this is a big question, right? And as you're saying this, I'm thinking to myself, well, I want the answer to this. Right. I want to know exactly what we should say. The truth is, again, it depends. But what can be really helpful is to work on the communication in that relationship as much as possible. So not just explaining what our experience or needs are, but really explaining our why. Here's why. It's important for me that I feel heard. Here's why I want to talk about this or even here's why I don't want to talk about this. Having those kinds of conversations and after what I refer to as meta communications or talking about your communication, that can be really helpful and can be a strategy for navigating some of those questions. And I also see that boundaries are huge here and that can take many different forms. You touched on one of those just before, which was saying, you know, we're not going to talk about this. I'm not comfortable talking about this. I won't go there. Not now, not yet. Those are all different types of boundaries. It can also be helpful to make it clear what we are able or willing to do in a relationship, especially when it's a relationship that we're wanting to preserve or hold on to. So, for example, when communicating with friends or family members who don't see things eye to eye when it comes to vaccines, we can say something like, I'm here if you have any questions about this, but I'm not going to get into a debate about their efficacy or about their safety. Having those kinds of statements prepared can be really helpful because we can go into the conversations acknowledging that we are willing to connect, but really being clear about the areas that just aren't working both for us and for the relationship. And I think that is the key to making it clear that these boundaries aren't necessarily personal, even though they feel incredibly personal to everyone involved. So when I say that I'm not going to debate this with you, it's not because I don't care about you. When I say that I'm not able to see you indoors, it's not because I don't want to maintain or preserve our friendship. It's because it doesn't make me feel safe or it's because it feels too upsetting for me. And being clear that we still want to maintain a relationship can help us to preserve that connexion long term.

RB: How do you know when it might be time to let a friendship go?

TARYN MELES: Oh, this is this too is a big question. And again, the answer will really differ, depending on who we are, who our friend is, what the friendship history is there. But I will say the big thing that I encourage clients to look for the patterns that very rarely does one argument or conflict lead to a friendship, dissolution or friendship break up, so to speak. It tends to be this long standing pattern of feeling, unheard, feeling underappreciated, feeling as though the relationship is imbalanced. And ultimately, I think a lot of what we're talking about right now in the context of our friendships is the feeling of safety. And our connexions should really be a source of safety. We we should be able to turn to these people when we're looking for that sense of comfort and familiarity. We should feel safe, ideally opening up about our struggles and our successes, for that matter. And when our connexions don't feel safe, that really is a cue that it might be time to re-evaluate the healthiness of that relationship and in some cases even decide to let go or to distance ourselves.

RB: I understand that you offer a type of therapy that similar to couples counselling. But it's where two friends come together and they talk through their problems. That might sound unusual to some. People, why do you think that it's not as common as seeking out help in family or romantic relationships?

TARYN MELES: I think it really just reflects how we have historically viewed our friendships that in many ways we tend to see them as second best or second tier. You know, we have a long list of items on our To-Do list, and often investing in our friendships is kind of at the end of that list. Once we've invested in our other relationships and responsibilities and taking care of our families and our work commitments. And so in many ways, our reluctance to seek support for navigating friendship difficulties just reflects how how little so many of us prioritise them in our lives. But I also think it's a matter of just awareness that because this is relatively new, a lot of people aren't familiar with it and don't see this as a viable option when they're going through difficulties with a friend.

RB: But anyone who has been through a friendship Break-Up before, I bet you hear this a lot, that actually it can sometimes feel more painful than any romantic break-up they've ever been through.

TARYN MELES: Absolutely. That definitely is a common theme that I hear. And so I think that, unsurprisingly, that's why not just navigating the ending of a friendship and questions surrounding that, but coping with the loss of a friendship tends to be a very present thing for a lot of the people that I work with.

RB: Doctor, thank you for your time today. It was really nice to talk to you. Thank you.

TARYN MELES: Thank you.

RB: Miriam Kirmayer is a clinical psychologist in Ottawa who offers friendship counselling as part of her practise, perhaps this was a familiar story for you. How have your relationships been impacted by the pandemic? Have you thought about how you might mend a friendship or have you decided to let it go if you'd like to share? You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC or email thecurrent@cbc.ca

A harrowing arctic expedition

Guests: Andrea Pitzer

RB: Frigid arctic waves... that is what the historian Andrea Pitzer heard as she neared the island of Nova Zembla in 2019. It's the same sound that polar explorer William Barents heard four hundred years earlier. William Barents attempted to cross the top of the globe THREE times. Andrea Pitzer was retracing his route, for her latest book. It's called Icebound: Shipwrecked at the Edge of the World. She spoke with Matt Galloway in February. Here is their conversation.

MATT GALLOWAY: Where is Nova Zembla?

ANDREA PITZER: It is a long, kind of hot dog-shaped set of islands about 200 miles north of Siberia.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so what were you hoping to learn by sailing the same route that William Barents did 400 years ago?

ANDREA PITZER: There were histories. There were, you know, individual small records. But I felt like what I could hopefully add to the mix by going to the places that he had been and standing in those places, and particularly where they got stranded for the winter to... to sort of be in that space, I was hoping it would give me a kind of perspective that would help to communicate the degree of their isolation and sort of the amount of the suffering that they had had to endure so far from home.

MATT GALLOWAY: The amount of the suffering is really at the heart of this fantastic book. Why was he so intent on sailing through the Arctic? He did this three times. What was he looking for?

ANDREA PITZER: Well, what made it possible to go in the first place was sort of the business interests. So the purported mission of all three expeditions was this attempt to find a trade route from Amsterdam to China. But above and beyond that, William Barents, the navigator for those three voyages, seems to have been bent on simply getting there, even past any rational point of trying to continue. When the other men were ready to turn back, Barents is there again and again in the historical record, saying, well, we could just leave some people here till spring, or I think we should continue on, even after weeks of making minimal progress with the ice. He would always want to continue and frequently found himself arguing with other people on the voyages about this. So I think he had a real internal drive to try to be the first to find this route.

MATT GALLOWAY: Set the scene for us. I mean, what was happening in Holland 400 years ago that would create the conditions for him to be able to do this?

ANDREA PITZER: It's a really remarkable historical moment. We've got the Dutch, who do this revolutionary thing. In the 1500s, they're being ruled over by Spain, and they reject the Spanish ruler. And then they reject the idea of monarchy, and they decide that they're going to rule themselves. It's really an audacious moment, but they're still lodged in the middle of this 80-year war that's going to take place to establish that independence. So right in the middle of that is when these Dutch merchants and political leaders are thinking about staking a claim to an empire. It's this little tiny upstart nation. And they're on the sea. They have amazing shipwrights. And so they have the capacity to build a huge fleet that can do this kind of trade. And they have a lot of refugees from other cultures that are fleeing some of the religious persecution and other persecution that is present in sort of the Spanish-held territories. So they have this influx of capital. They have a very educated population. They have access to the sea. They have the ability to build these amazing boats. And they're trying to stake a claim that they can do what Spain and Portugal have already done and what Britain is trying to do. And they're going to be an empire, a world-class empire.

MATT GALLOWAY: And who is William Barents? I mean, we know the sea that is named after him and the sea that he sailed. But who was he?

ANDREA PITZER: It's interesting. The historical record is a little lean on that. And this was one of the challenges in writing the book. We know that he was in his 40s in this time. We know that he had produced the first full mapping of the Mediterranean Sea. We know that he had a wife and five children. And we know that he was widely respected even by people who didn't necessarily like him. [chuckling] He was widely respected as a navigator. So he was someone trusted with this mission repeatedly to try to find this route in the north. And he does seem to have had extraordinary navigation skills. But he was wedded to this idea of an open polar sea. That they would somehow get far enough north, and then there would be clear sailing and no ice. And unfortunately, that was a very incorrect theory.

MATT GALLOWAY: They learned that immediately. I mean, there are, as I mentioned, there are three attempts at this. The first one, they get out, they come back. The second trip was a disaster. What happened on that second trip?

ANDREA PITZER: Because they thought they had found what would be a successful route on the first trip, these different localities in the Netherlands gather a seven-ship fleet and equip it with cargo, with trade representatives. It's just an amazing sort of flotilla that they put together. And they really believe on that second voyage, and this is in 1595, that they are going to make it all the way to China. But everything that can go wrong on a voyage goes wrong. There were collisions, there were drownings, there was a mutiny, there is keelhauling, which is a disciplinary tactic at sea in which a rope is tied around a sailor, and he's dragged under the boat, which would be bad enough in balmy waters, but you can only imagine how horrific it would be in Arctic waters. And men are eaten by polar bears. So along with all that, which was certainly bad enough, they run into just nightmarish ice. And if you haven't ever been in ice, it's kind of difficult to imagine. But ice stretching taller than their ship sometimes, pieces of ice colliding with each other and potentially trapping and crushing their boats. The ice becomes kind of this animate creature itself in the story.

MATT GALLOWAY: And that's... I mean, the descriptions that you have of the ice are incredible in the book. I mean, try to describe it for us, for people who have never been in ice like that, what was the landscape that they were in?

ANDREA PITZER: Well, it would look completely different than the landscape without ice. I mean, there are whole islands that would be covered up by ice in the winter or by glaciers. You would look out, and you would not know what was land and what was water that had frozen over or had icebergs shoved into it. There's one point when they're in a small boat, and there are two huge icebergs that they are sailing between, and they suddenly realize that they are coming together. And that if they don't run for their lives, that they're going to be crushed between these huge blocks. In my own expeditions, I found the sound of the ice was just amazing, the groaning and the moaning. Sometimes it would sound like gunfire when it would crack apart. As it would heat up, there would be air bubbles in it, and it would hiss like oil in a skillet. And so sort of the many sounds of ice haunt any time you spend in the north, particularly the colder months if you're there. And this was the sound, this was the visual that surrounded them, I mean, in all their time there, particularly after they get stranded, of course.

MATT GALLOWAY: What happened when they got stranded?

ANDREA PITZER: On the third expedition, which was 15 96, they met the same fate that they had on the first two, which was eventually the ice prevented them from going any further. This time they had gotten around to the eastern side, so past where is today the Barents Sea over into the Kara Sea. They'd gotten to the eastern side of Nova Zembla. And they had thought they might be able to cross that sea. But the ice comes in, and just like before, they realize they can't go further. They're going to have to turn for home. They think maybe they'll head south and try to get to warmer water that way, and they get blocked. So they try to go back the way they came north over Nova Zembla, and they can't do that either. And it slowly dawns on them that they've lost the ability to get home. So they are at a place that is now known as Ice Harbour, which is the name they give it, and they decide they will have to build a shelter. And one of the first things that happens is the carpenter dies. So they're in quite a bad spot right away.

MATT GALLOWAY: This is on the third trip. They had seen disaster in the first couple of trips. Why would... why would he go back again and again?

ANDREA PITZER: I think that there was a real sense then that it was possible to go into the unknown. That it was possible to do something that perhaps no one in recorded history had done. And we know that many Europeans set out and discovered lands that were already inhabited that other Indigenous people knew quite well. And I don't want to erase any of that historical record. But this is the first time that these lands are recorded in written history at all. And so there was a sense for them of going into almost outer space. It was off every map in existence. No one knew where they were. And I think the challenge of that would draw a certain kind of navigator to be the first person to map maybe a polar continent. I mean, they didn't know what they were going to find. And that was certainly a huge challenge.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's fine if you are William Barents, and you have this... there's something that's happening inside you that drives you to do this. But not all of his crew were as committed as he was. You mentioned that there was a mutiny. Why did the mutiny unfold, and what happened?

ANDREA PITZER: Well, on the second trip, this was in the 1995 run, they had early on had two ships collide, and several sailors drowned. So it started off pretty inauspiciously. They begin to be sort of harrowed by ice. They meet down in the very southern end of Nova Zembla, very far from where they'll end up. They meet with some Indigenous people, some Nenets people, and some of the crew actually steal from those people. And they had been told not to do that. So this keelhauling punishment that I mentioned is unleashed. And somebody dies from it. And so then we also have two men eaten by polar bears. And now the ice has gotten even more harrowing. And William Barents is suggesting that they continue on. And that if they can't continue on, maybe a contingent of the group should stay for the winter so they'll be poised to go out as soon as thaw happens next spring. That is sort of the last straw in this series of frightening events. And they rise up, and several men are hanged as the ringleaders of the mutiny.

MATT GALLOWAY: It wasn't just the ice that threatened them. You mentioned the polar bears a couple of different times. [chuckling] What was it like for them to encounter? I mean, and you describe this in the book, when they first saw a polar bear out on that ice, what was that like for them?

ANDREA PITZER: Well, that was on the first expedition that they were astounded to see this white bear in the water. And they have this idea because someone among them, maybe several of them, had seen a trained bear performing on the street in Amsterdam, and they have this idea that they're going to capture it and take it onboard their little boat that they have out on the water at this moment as a pet, and that they will take it back to Amsterdam with them. And anyone who knows anything about [chuckling] polar bears knows this is a really horrible idea. And they learn that pretty quickly themselves. They try to... they loop a rope around its neck, and they try to drag it for a while and let it pull them to wear it out. But it decides it's going to climb into the boat. And it's only that rope around its neck getting caught on the rudder that kind of locks it in place. And they realize that they are no match for it, that the thing is, is incredibly aggressive and incredibly strong, and that they have to kill it. And so it actually takes them still quite a while to kill it. And it's only because it's tethered that that's possible.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned what happens when they get stuck on that third voyage in the ice. The carpenter dies. They have to build this shelter once they realize the ship is ice. How did they do that? What what did they end up trying to create so that they could survive in these appalling conditions?

ANDREA PITZER: It's quite a challenge, because when you're that far north, it's basically arctic desert. There are no trees. There are no shrubs or bushes or sticks or twigs that grow there naturally. So they were dependent on a shore or a curve in the shore that they found where driftwood washed up. And they also stripped part of the non-essential pieces of their ship. And between that, managed to build a fairly sturdy cabin. But it could only offer so much protection for them. It was out on... it was exposed on three sides to the weather and was certainly not entirely windproof, although they did try to seal it up. They would end up with more than an inch of ice on the interior walls of the cabin. Even with the fire that they would have going in their cabin. So it was unbelievably sort of frigid and lethal, even inside their cabin. But it did offer them protection from the bears for sure. There is a moment when the snow gathers and rises above the roofline of their cabin, and they hear one night of polar bear rampaging on top of it and trying to get in at them. And so it did provide them some protection, but even that was of limited value.

MATT GALLOWAY: And again, the weather is awful. I mean, there's blizzard after blizzard after blizzard. And the way that this is written, I mean, you can just see it getting worse and worse and worse. How did they fare in the weather?

ANDREA PITZER: There's sort of the external things, the weather and the bears that are happening. But at the same time, I want to just note, too, they're being devoured from the inside by scurvy almost from the moment they set foot on the shore. They've been without vitamin C for so long. So they're connective tissue is is dissolving inside them. Their teeth are coming loose. Their stomachs are upset. Their intestines are starting to disintegrate in some minor ways. And then meanwhile, it's blizzard after blizzard, so that some days it's so cold they can't go outside for more than a couple of minutes. The snow is so built up that they can't dig themselves out on some days, and they end up having to use the sort of front porch area that they've built on their cabin as a latrine and they themselves start to stink. So they're trapped inside this cabin. In the book, I write about how it's almost as if they're still at sea, they're so bound to that cabin that they can't leave it because of the conditions outside.

MATT GALLOWAY: And there is no chance that they're going to be rescued.

ANDREA PITZER: And this is the thing that, however, we read a lot of later accounts, and there's some very dramatic ones of people being stranded in isolation, this is as isolated as you can get because they were off every map. No one had any idea even where to find them. No one had any idea that this place existed. So if they were going to get home at any point, they knew it would be entirely on them. That there was no one who could come to rescue them.

MATT GALLOWAY: Do you see parallels between this... and I mean, you write about this in the book in terms of how it was seen historically, but parallels between this voyage, the voyage that they were on where they're stuck, and people think of Shackleton and his crew.

ANDREA PITZER: There are parallels, I think, that it's important to sort of contextualize that Shackleton is centuries later. So the food they have, the gear they have, the idea that people will have some sense of where they're going and where they might be found if they reach their goal. The world was a much more known place. And that's not to diminish Shackleton at all. Some amazing, amazing feats. But these guys were really singularly unprepared to be in the situation that they were in. Shackleton knew he would be enduring these horrific conditions and had planned very specifically for that. Barents and his men thought they were going to China. And so, the idea of surviving this winter was not something that they were really kitted out for.

MATT GALLOWAY: You would think that that would be the end of the story. The ice is around them. The bears are on the roof. They have scurvy. Good night. That's not the end of the story. Eventually, they cook up this extraordinary plan to escape. What happened?

ANDREA PITZER: Yeah, well, it gets to be, I mean, for you or me, maybe a little more for me than you, you know, you start thinking March is going to be warmer weather. [both chuckling] I'm down here near DC, but for them, they wait for their ship to not be frozen in anymore. And they wait, and it's March, and it's April, and it's May, and it's into June before they are leaving. And the captain is really hoping to have the ship because the ship means they could set out across the middle of the sea. But it turns out the ship is still frozen. So they're going to retool their small boats to make them a little bit more seaworthy, to carry so many men. And they are going to have to sort of try to sail along the shoreline where they can stop and get enough water and provisions since they won't have room to carry any of that stuff or to gather it. And so they set out in things a little bigger than a dinghy. And with men sick and dying already in them, some of them not even able to row, and with limited water and very little food, they're going to try to sail in open boats, on the open sea, more than a thousand miles to... to an island where they know that some ships come sometimes.

MATT GALLOWAY: Can you imagine what that would have been like?

ANDREA PITZER: I think in the sort of the legends of this and, of course, it's quite well known in the Netherlands still today, he's a national hero. But I think that the overwintering that has sort of become so famous, that became so famous right after the story got back to the Netherlands, that Shakespeare would refer to it just a few years later. But I think that overwintering is extraordinary. And then I think that voyage home is just as extraordinary to try to do that.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do we know, again, we're not giving... this history, but the way that you describe it, I mean, it reads like an extraordinary tale. What do we know about what it was like when they returned home?

ANDREA PITZER: I don't want to give away too much, of course. So I won't say who gets home and who does indeed because not everybody gets home. But it was astounding. They landed, and word spread that they were there. It had been assumed that they were dead, and dead and rotten, I think, might be one of the references that somebody made, [chuckling] but they were alive. And there happened to be a banquet that night, and they were escorted to the banquet where they told their stories, and they were wearing their clothes that they had overwintered in and the fox fur hats that they made. And it was this extraordinary moment that becomes this extraordinary bigger moment, because the story, this is the first sort of Europeans Arctic overwintering, you know, endurance story that we have. And it gets translated within a couple of years into several languages. Shakespeare will make reference to it in his "Twelfth Night" play, and he can do it in passing. I mean, it's such a famous story that sort of everyone knows it. So in that moment, they become kind of legendary. But over the subsequent centuries, as the trade routes, the focus of them for a lot of people really becomes the southern roots. And certainly, for the Dutch, his name kind of gets forgotten. And it isn't until the 19th century when we start to see the rise of these polar explorers that can be documented with photos and telegrams and later film footage that the memory of Barents, who sort of set the template as the first guy to endure this freezing winter and just make a name for himself by surviving comes back to light again.

MATT GALLOWAY: How does what you've learned about this story change how you think about the word resilience? I mean, in many ways, this is the definition of resilience. And we use that word now in the midst of a pandemic because we're all, you know, trying to grind through this thing that we're in. What does that word mean to you now?

ANDREA PITZER: I had a pretty tough year last year. [laughing].

MATT GALLOWAY: You did, yeah.

ANDREA PITZER: Yeah, like a lot of people did. I know COVID has been a difficult time for everybody. My stepfather died. I had to take my mother, who has paranoid dementia, in and try to get legal guardianship of her, against her will, while the courts were shutting down. My husband had a brain aneurysm.

MATT GALLOWAY: Oh, my goodness!

ANDREA PITZER: So, yeah, it was a lot. And he's fine now, so don't worry too much about me. Like, it all turned out to be manageable, but it was a lot to deal with. And I know a lot of other people have had a lot to deal with. And I have to say this story while I was working on it, and I don't want to sort of gratuitously enjoy anyone else's suffering, but knowing how cut off these men were from any help, and how much they only had each other to rely on, and they got up day after day, I think particularly about the voyage home when they would keep telling themselves they would get stuck in ice, and they would have to take out their provisions, take out the sick people, drag the boats up on top of a glacier, drag everything across the top of an iceberg, off of a glacier, perhaps, and then think they were going to be to open sea, and they would just see more icebergs the next morning, and they would have to do the same thing all over again. It really underlined to me that we're never alone as that. We're never as isolated as they were. And sometimes, you know, you just get up and say, I'm going to get through this next hour, or I'm going to get through this next day. But it really did help me think about my own situation in a different way to realize that there were ways I could reach out to other people. And the resilience that they had to only have each other to rely on. You know, I still find it astounding.

MATT GALLOWAY: And something that you can draw on now?

ANDREA PITZER: Yes, I think that I'm loath to... to offer inspirational words to people because I think those things can be so hollow. But I think that to know that it is possible to sort of look into yourself and go on even when you think you can't go on. And there's a moment in this story when they get to one place, and they're actually quite close to to making it, but they don't know that. And they want to die. They just they are so sore-afflicted with exhaustion and scurvy, and they don't have food, and they just they're just about to give up. [beginning to laugh] And it's so hard when you know how the story turns out and you're like, no, you know, you read that despair. And I think, you know, we all feel that despair at different points, and you really never know what's coming the next day. And so I do take great solace in that, that today, you know, might be quite different than tomorrow. You just have to wake up and see what's going to be the next day.

MATT GALLOWAY: We started this conversation in me asking you about your trip to Nova Zembla. I want to end there as well with this.

[Music: An accordian]

MATT GALLOWAY: Andrea Pitzer, what are we listening to?

ANDREA PITZER: You are listening to Sasha Bogdanoff, a Russian sailor playing an accordion concert for walruses at the very place the Barents and his men first saw walruses at the northern end of Nova Zembla.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm going to need you to explain that to me. [laughing] An accordion concert for walruses.

ANDREA PITZER: So right at the place... and this will underline a few of the differences between our day and Barents' day. Right at the place that Barents and his men near the Orange Islands, first saw hundreds of walruses and immediately climbed out of their ship into their small boats to go kill as many as possible because they'd heard that the tusks were valuable. We, in 2019, August, came around a bend and saw hundreds of walruses ourselves, and we ended up anchoring near them to sort of take in their majesty. And we had a buoy on the anchor and the walruses came out and began playing with it. It was a bright yellow buoy, and they were having a really good time. And the sailors were worried that they would, in fact get caught in the line and get injured. So we reeled the bouy in, and the walruses sat there looking at us in great disappointment. And so Sasha went and got his what's called a garmonica in Russian, and began playing one of the most famous Soviet era waltzes, a Eugen Doga waltz. It's called "My Sweet and Tender Beast", which I love. [both laugh] And the walruses were entranced. They came over. They were watching us so closely. And they had a little mosh pit formed at one point where they were flopping into each other. And they were clearly just enraptured by it. It was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my life. And it can go quite differently, I'll say, because of walrus mother protecting a baby, a week later, not too far from where we were actually sank a boat not much smaller than the one we were in. So you don't want to upset walruses at all. But they clearly loved this concert. And on some really fundamental level, I don't want to anthropomorphize them. But there was some kind of communication there that they loved this thing that... that Sasha was offering them. And to sort of be present for that was really a gift.

MATT GALLOWAY: This is a fantastic story, and a real pleasure to talk to you about it. Andrea, thank you.

ANDREA PITZER: Thank you so much.

RB: Historian Andrea Pitzer's book is Icebound: Shipwrecked at the Edge of the World. She spoke to Matt Galloway in February. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Guest host Eli Glasner talks to American Beauty and American Pie actress Mena Suvari for the first time, she's telling her whole story in her new memoir - about her beginnings in the seedy modelling industry, the abuse that followed her throughout her life, and how she's found peace with her past. Meanwhile - Houston, Texas lost one of its favourite musical sons, yesterday. ZZ Top bassist Dusty Hill died at home at the age of 72. Hill had been with the band for more than 50 years and the group was still touring, although it hadn't released new material for a number of years. Turns out one of the songs on its last studio album -- actually made its premiere in outer space. It was played as an unfinished demo on board a Soyuz spacecraft, as it travelled to the International Space Station in June of 2011 at the request of astronaut Mike Fossum, who is a huge fan of ZZ Top. This is Flyin High. I'm Robyn Bresnahan. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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