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The Current Transcript for April 20, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

JOE BIDEN: I can say quite clearly, don't come. We're in the process of getting set up. Don't leave your town or city or community.

MATT GALLOWAY: The Canada US border remains closed to all but essential travel. But it's the U.S. border with Mexico that is giving Joe Biden headaches these days. As the pandemic continues, migrants keep arriving seeking refuge in the United States. In what many have termed a crisis for the new president in an hour will head to that border and to Guatemala, where a growing famine has driven people north. Also this morning, Eric Ripert is one of the top chefs in the United States. He learnt to cook in the top restaurants of France where abusive behaviour was expected and endured.

ERIC RIPERT: I was wrong. I was emulating some of my mentors and people who taught me. And I was like, this is not the way I wanted to be treated when I was a cook. This is not the way I should be treating people.

MG: In 30 minutes. He's here to talk about how Buddhism changed, how he behaves in the kitchen, how to cook your vegetables, and what he misses most about his very close friend, Anthony Bourdain. But we begin with a big spending budget.

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Chrystia Freeland on the federal budget and fighting COVID-19’s third wave

Guests: Chrystia Freeland

MG: After two years with no new fiscal mandate, the federal budget is here from promises for national child care to more money for pandemic recovery. There is a lot in there. The Liberal government has plans to spend big with a deficit of over 350 billion dollars. Conservative leader Erin O'Toole and the leader of the NDP Jagmeet Singh both shared their thoughts after the budget was delivered.

JAGMEET SINGH: The Liberals like to say the right thing, but then they don't follow through on it. Justin Trudeau says one thing and does another. Pharmacare was something he campaigned on. He introduced in the throne speech and now in this budget is completely abandoned. What's to say that he won't do the same thing with child care?

ERIN O'TOOLE: This budget does nothing to answer the calls from Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia and Alberta and other provinces asking for more vaccines. Justin Trudeau has moved too slow for this virus. It's racing ahead of us now and now, he is slow in providing real help for Canadians in this budget. Unfortunately, this budget does next to nothing to secure the Canadian economy.

MG: The budget, all 700 plus pages of it comes in the midst of another deadly wave of covid-19. Many Canadians are banking on a vaccine to see them through, but often getting the shot has been an ongoing issue. In the meantime, doctors in several provinces are afraid of what they're seeing. ICUs dangerously full, surgeries cancelled. In Ontario, doctors are preparing to do triage for who will get lifesaving care. In British Columbia and Alberta, covid cases are soaring with growing numbers of variants of concern. The budget and much of Canada's covid response has fallen to federal finance minister and Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland.

MG: Chrystia Freeland, good morning.

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: Good morning, Matt.

MG: I want to get to the budget in a moment. Let me ask you first about where we're at right now. The health care system, as you know, is strained to a breaking point in Ontario. There are similar concerns in Alberta. The leader of the NDP, Jagmeet Singh, says that your government should invoke the Emergencies Act to federalise the covid-19 response, now, as this crisis escalates. What would it take for you to do that?

CF: So let me just start by saying thank you for starting there, Matt. And I was in touch with a couple of doctors last night, late last night, after all the budget stuff, just to hear directly from them how they and their hospitals are doing. I want to say thank you so much to our healthcare workers who are facing this unbelievable wave. I am really, really aware of how hard this is for everyone. And I just want to say to people that the federal government is here to provide support to individual Canadians and Canadian businesses and to the healthcare system. At the end of March, we added an additional five billion dollars to support healthcare systems across the country, specifically to help us meet the challenge of the third wave that we knew was coming.

MG: The question was about the Emergencies Act, though, and I mean, the point of the Emergencies Act in many ways is to deal with an emergency. So if not now, when and would your government look at federalising that covid response?

CF: You know, I think that what we have done since the beginning of COVID for sure had a strong federal role in the covid response, but focussed on partnership with the provinces, the territories, the municipalities. And I really believe that in our confederation, partnership and working together is the way to go.

MG: Do you believe a province like Ontario has everything under control?

CF: I didn't say that, Matt, but I'm very aware of really how hard the situation is, how hard all the choices are. And I just want to say we are prepared to do whatever we can, whatever is needed to help. People heard the prime minister a couple of days ago talking about all the additional federal support that we are offering to Ontario. I'm also really grateful to leaders and health care workers in other provinces that are stepping up, that are prepared to come and help Ontario. The federal government is ready to pay whatever costs are involved with those health care workers coming to help us out. So we will do whatever it takes, whatever we can, and we really think, you know, when our house is on fire, we should be focussed less on pointing fingers and less on fighting with each other — there's going to be lots of time to do that when the battle is over, when the fire is out, our focus is just on rolling up our sleeves, getting some pails of water and doing everything we can to keep as many people in Ontario and Alberta and across the country healthy and safe as we can.

MG: Let me just ask you a couple more questions on the covid situation. One is around travel. People are continuing to travel and in their travel they're bringing new transmissible variants into this country. We know that there are provinces that are implementing travel restrictions. Why is it still safe to allow international flights into Canada from places where covid is rampant in places like Brazil and India, for example?

CF: So I actually, in the budget speech yesterday, talked about the importance of our border controls, the importance of the mandatory quarantine regime which is in place, and the importance of the new controls, the reasonably new controls that we have put in place. Some people said that was too much, the mandatory stay in hotels upon arrival. I think the third wave is showing that was absolutely necessary. And I would say to all Canadians, now is really not the time to travel.

MG: But but the flights are still happening. So why is it still safe to allow those international flights to still come into the country?

CF: We have one of the strictest border regimes in the world. As I said, Matt, a lot of people have criticised us and said that regime is too much. I will push back against that criticism any day of the week. I think that we do need to have the tough border controls, including mandatory quarantine, including the quarantine hotels, for precisely the reason you're pointing to, to keep people safe.

MG: The other issue where people need to be kept safe is at work. Dominic LeBlanc was on this programme yesterday and he acknowledged that there are problems with the Canada Recovery Sickness Benefit programme and said that you were looking at ways to improve access. If we know that the virus is spreading within those essential workplaces and provincial governments are not implementing paid sick days, sick days that would keep employees safe. Why was something like that not in the budget?

MG: So I really agree with you Matt, that paid sick days are essential. They're especially essential during covid, but they are essential all the time. And that's why the federal government stepped in very early on with an unprecedented program to support Canadians in doing the right thing in staying home. We created the CERB and we created a particular portion of the service, the Canada Recovery Sickness Benefit, that is for four weeks. It's 500 dollars a week. And I would encourage everyone who doesn't have sick pay, who doesn't have sick leave to take advantage of that, stay home when they can.

MG: But your own minister, [cross talk, interrupting each other] OK.

CF: Is for a longer term sustainable solution to something that I think we need to do, whether we're facing covid or not, which is to have legislated sick pay. That is something that is with that, you know, some provinces have, done Quebec has done it, P.E.I. has done it. I think that's the right thing to do. We stepped up in our area of responsibility in the budget by extending the sickness benefit from 15 weeks to 26 weeks. So we think this is important. We have done what we can on an emergency basis for covid. And I would urge everyone to look at what they can do, because you're right, it's a really important issue.

MG: I just... The last point on this is just that your own minister said that it wasn't enough and said that more needs to be done. So if more needs to be done. And back to your analogy of where the fire is, why can't the federal government act quickly? Money is going out the door at a furious pace. Why can't the federal government do this if provincial governments aren't?

CF: We have acted really at scale in fighting covid and in fighting covid our principle focus has been individual Canadians, individual Canadian businesses. Eight out of ten dollars spent fighting covid has been spent by the federal government. And I do really want to emphasise that the Canada Recovery Sickness Benefit is there. It's 500 dollars a week. It is simple to apply for and I would urge people who need it to use it. And I would also say I really believe in long term, durable solutions to the issue of sick pay. We put our money where our mouth is when it comes to EI sickness in the federal budget, and I think that's a conversation we should be having.

MG: You said yesterday that we have failed people living in long term care and you pledged three billion dollars to help. What does that money going to do to establish a national standard for the care of our elders?

MG: I am glad you noticed that, Matt, because I wrote most of my speech myself, and that was something I put in myself, because I do think we... I don't think as a country we can forget just the horrible things we learnt about long term care in the country. And so that's why the budget puts three billion dollars on the table to make it better. And I'd like to point out in the fall economic statement, we put a billion dollars on the table to make it better and that money has not yet made its way through the legislative process. So it's four billion in total coming. Now, in terms of the next steps, you know, a lot of this conversation is possibly tedious for listeners, although I hope not. A lot of this conversation has ended up, you know, coming back to the question of the fact that Canada has a federal political structure. So some of the issues which are really urgent for Canadian's can't be fixed with the waving of a magic wand from Ottawa but they require careful collaboration between Ottawa and provinces and territories, long term care is one of those issues. And I actually do believe that there is the political will across the country to significantly improve the situation. I think everyone has had that feeling of horror and of shame and of guilt, which I had when I read those devastating reports from the Canadian armed forces. But I will be candid with you that it's complicated. We have to have some complicated, careful, thoughtful conversations with all the provinces and territories to move things forward.

MG: Do you think there's still a place for, for profit care and long term care?

CF: You know? I believe when it comes to our elders and also the very youngest Canadians, the people who are least able to speak up for themselves and advocate for themselves, I think that we should have a strong bias towards not for profit care and the not for profit system. And that is an approach that will also be reflected in our own approach to early learning and child care. So, you know that I think we have to be really thoughtful. I'm a huge believer in the private sector. We have made huge investments in small businesses across the country. And I believe they're going to power our recovery from covid. And Lord knows we need them to do that. But I do really think that older people, especially as they become more frail and really little people who can't speak up for themselves, those are special cases. And I personally think we need to have a strong bias towards not for profit care for them.

MG: Well, another... I mean, to that point, another one of those interjurisdictional issues is the idea of a national child care plan, which you've committed to. You've said this is going to happen. You've promised that this will come to pass. How is the government going to execute on a ten dollar a day child care plan when this idea, as you well know, has failed so many times before?

CF: Well, look, Matt. I am. Going to be again, frank, with you and with Canadians, I'm not going to pretend it's going to be easy, but I am really determined that this time we're going to do it and proof of our commitment. And I think a very, very big step towards actually making it happen is we're putting a lot of money on the table, 30 billion dollars over five years, more than nine billion dollars a year ongoing. And that is really to show Canadians that we are serious. We believe in this. We believe this is an essential economic policy. If we can get this done and I am going to need all Canadians to help me, I'm going to need all Canadians to stand up and to say now is the time to do this. But if we can do this, this is going to be the most powerful step change in the Canadian economy since we did the NAFTA deal. It will really drive our economic productivity, our growth.

MG: What indication do you have that those provincial governments that you need to be onside for this? What indication do you have that they're interested in this?

CF: So I think that it's reasonable for them to have some time to look at what we have laid out. And I think now is the time for us to spend some time having conversations with them to see what we can do. Of course, we wouldn't have gone out with this without having had some preliminary conversations.

MG: And so your sense is that some of them...

CF: I have had preliminary conversations with some provinces and territories. And I am very optimistic that we'll be able to move forward with some willing partners soon. And I am optimistic that we will be able to move forward with everyone before too long.

MG: Time is the issue, though. I mean, if this is about the recovery from the crisis that we're in and we know that child care is a problem now, what do you say to families who need this help to get back to work today, that they can't wait four/five years for this programme to be in place?

CF: You know what I say to them? I say, help me. Help me put this on the national political agenda. Talk to people in your town, in your city, in your province, in your territory, and say that you agree with me that this is the time to really do this in Canada. Matt, it's going to take a lot of political will of the whole country. But I am rolling up my sleeves. I'm going to be one of the people driving this. And I really you know, Matt, I really think the moment has come. I think covid has prompted an epiphany amongst Canadians, there are some people, a lot of feminists who have been fighting for this for more than 50 years. They know how important it is. And every parent, particularly every mother who has just cried at the struggle of trying to figure out how to get your kid taken care of and how also to do the job you love. We all know how important it is. But the thing that I think covid has changed is, you know, people have seen... People who hadn't thought about early learning and child care earlier, have seen how essential it is to keep our economy functioning. So, Matt, I'm not going to diminish for a second how hard this is going to be. And I'm not going to promise instant gratification. But I think the moment has come. We are all in. We are totally committed.

MG: Just before I let you go, let me end with where we started, which is this third wave, which it's ripping through parts of this country. I speak with doctors and epidemiologists on this program every day. They talk about how frightened they are and how difficult the next few weeks are going to be. And you'll know that Canadians are exhausted right now. What are you most worried about right now?

CF: Oh, you know, I'm the very most worried, actually, about our healthcare workers. I think they are such amazing people. You talk to them Matt, neither you nor I, is a healthcare worker, but both of us talk to them. And I have been so moved by how much they care and how hard they work. And it's just heartbreaking to me that we're putting them through this gruelling and just like incredibly painful final challenge. And I know you hear from them as I do that I think what breaks their hearts the most is the feeling that we could have done some things differently to avoid this. But, you know, let's not look back. Let's look forward. Let's do everything we can to get through this. And maybe I could conclude by saying thank you to every single person who's a healthcare worker in Canada. You really... Your compassion and your devotion. It's a real inspiration to me. I'm very grateful to you.

MG: Chrystia Freeland, good to speak with you, as always. Thank you very much.

CF: Good to talk to you, Matt.

MG: Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland, the CBC News is next. And then chef Eric Ripert is known as the Chevalier of Seafood. But in his new book, he is defending the honour of another staple.

ERIC RIPERT: I notice that a lot of people sometimes are shy about techniques and they don't necessarily know how to have asparagus or string beans green and well cooked. And so they cover... sometimes they boil the water, they cover the pan and they have to string beans when they come out they're all grey. It's a very simple technique, but it's a no no. You never cover green vegetables in water. If you cover them, they become black, grey

MG: Chef Eric Ripert walks us through the joys and the no, no's of cooking vegetables. That's coming up in about six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

Chef Éric Ripert on cooking vegetables, and bringing Buddhism into the kitchen

Guest: Éric Ripert

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. Still to come, thousands of migrants continue to make their way from Latin America to the U.S. southern border. In 30 minutes, what awaits them when they arrive and what the Biden administration is doing about it? But first, giving praise to veggies with the French chef, Eric Ripert.

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ERIC RIPERT: I have a huge octopus here that I'm going to cook in the broth made with some ham, a few pieces, you put it in the water, some celery, cut into small pieces, half of an onion, some garlic, black pepper, some pimento.

MG: Makes it sound so simple, doesn't he? A little of this, a little of that but, Eric Ripert's cooking is anything but simple. He is known as the Chevalier of Seafood. His Michelin starred restaurant, Le Bernardin and New York City revolves around the fruits of the sea. But his latest cookbook, Vegetable Simple, puts the vegetable at the centre of the plate. Eric Ripert joins me now.

MG: Chef, good morning.

ER: Good morning, Matt. It's good to be with you.

MG: It's great to have you here. This is your seventh book. Why vegetables?

ER: Why vegetables? Because I wanted to do a book on vegetables, and I love eating vegetables at home on the weekend. I'm obviously eating a lot of seafood during the week, which I love of course, and I better since I am the chef of Le Bernardin. But I noticed that on the weekend when I cook and I entertain, especially in the summer, I have big tables of 10, 12 people, friends who come home. And I have the tendency to cook a lot of vegetables that I find at the farmer's market or at the farm stands. And I cook a lot of different, very simple recipes that pay homage to those vegetables individually most of the time, except if it's a ratatouille. But I put them in the middle of the table and my guests help themselves and it's very convivial and... I just love those vegetables that are in season they taste fantastic when especially when they come from the farms that are surrounding us. So that gave me the idea to do Vegetable Simple to demystify a little bit the process of cooking vegetables. To show that it can be extremely simple and at the same time, you can elevate the quality of each ingredient that you decided to to cook and eat and pay homage.

MG: What do you mean, demystify? I mean, what do we need to demystify when it comes to cooking vegetables?

ER: I notice that a lot of people sometimes are shy about techniques and they don't necessarily know how to have asparagus or string beans green and well cooked. And so they cover the... sometimes they boil the water, they cover the pan. They have the string beans, when they come out they are all grey. Well it's a very simple technique but it's a no, no. You never cover green vegetables in water. If you cover them they become black, grey. So I was like, you know, I know these little tips here and there and boiling vegetables like string beans and asparagus or peas. It's so simple. You just put salt in your water, you bring it to boil. You put the vegetables in it, when they're kind of tender and ready you [inaudible] the vegetables. And they are perfect. And then I give some, of course, directions to have those vegetables prepared in a way that is seasonal and at the same time that makes them exciting.

MG: You were raised in France. What difference do you see in terms of how people perhaps in North America treat vegetables compared to how people in Europe might?

ER: In France, we have much more, especially the south of France, but even throughout the country and in Paris a lot as well. We have a lot of markets, street markets and farmers come to the city once a week, twice a week. And a lot of the residents from those areas have the habit of going to shop at the market so you can be living in a big city like Paris and in your neighbourhood twice a week, you know, you're going to get the farmers and it's the same ones year after year, day after day and week after week that come. And you can shop beautiful products. They are in season, obviously, because those farmers cultivate from their own land, it's not imported vegetables, and it's a way to really live the present and live the seasons and appreciate what is in season. In America I don't see so many markets yet. And that's the big difference, because you can go to supermarkets and when you go to the aisle of the supermarket, it can be January,you could have a blizzard in Toronto or it can be in August. You have a hundred different beautiful vegetables that don't taste like anything, but they are gorgeous. And in January, I don't want to really eat tomatoes. My palate says eat root vegetables. Eat something... Lentils, grains. In August, I definitely do not want to eat sweet potatoes. I mean, whatever. The month of August is bringing. So I think Vegetable Simple, the book really is trying to help you to navigate the season and cook something that is delicious and meaningful, again, in a very simple way with no exotic vegetables and nothing necessarily very expensive.

MG: So if you talk about seasons, I mean, this is spring and this is the time when things start to appear. I mean, take a look at the cover of the book. And there's asparagus, which if you eat it in the rest of the year, it's fine. But if you eat it in the spring, it is electric. Tell me how you would go about cooking and serving something like asparagus?

ER: So we have right now, because it's the beginning of the spring, we have the white asparagus and we have the green asparagus. The green asparagus comes during the year at different times. You can find some again too, at the beginning of the summer and then in the fall. The white asparagus is very, very special. It's now. That's it. We have maybe one more month, a month and a half. So what I like to do with the asparagus, I like to cook them in salty water, boiling water when they are tender with the blade of a knife, I check and if the blade comes back and the asparagus stays in the water, they are cooked. I remove them, I like to serve them right away. I don't put them in the fridge because I feel that it takes a lot of the flavours from the asparagus. So I serve them right away at the table. By the time they arrive at the table, they're warm and we serve them either way with a vinaigrette or mayonnaise. And if I'm not too much in a rush, I like to do a nice hollandaise sauce. It's simple. I mean, vinaigrette takes, maybe three minutes if you're slow.

MG: Hollandaise takes a lot more. Even if you're fast.

ER: Hollandaise is another story.

MG: You spent a year living on a farm, is that correct?

ER: Yes, I did. I lived on a farm after my military duties because in France at the time it was mandatory to spend one year in the military. And so I did. I love being with the farmers and living their life and going to the fields and harvest with them. And I had this fantastic year.

MG: What did you learn about food in that experience?

ER: Well, I learnt that an artichoke is not something that it's just like an object. An artichoke, it is not easy to grow artichokes, it's a lot of work and you have to be respectful of the land. You have to be respectful of the rhythm of nature and so on, then the artichoke finally comes out and you have to go harvest and it's a lot of work.

MG: And did you grow up in a house that was surrounded by food? Were people constantly cooking and thinking about the potential of food when you were growing up?

ER: That's a great French thing, to be obsessed with food and think all day long about food, yes. You wake up in the morning and you think about your lunch and dinner, but you have to have breakfast first. And yes, I was very lucky. I had a grandmother from Italy that was living in the French Riviera and I had a grandmother from Provence living very close by. And my mother was obsessed with nouvelle cuisine and the chefs like Paul Bocuse and Michel Guerard that were the stars of that era. And I learnt some food from my grandmothers. So the Italian one was making food from northern Italy and I learnt how to eat but make pasta and a lot of different specialities from Italy, from my grandmother in Provence, same thing. And I was always with her in the kitchen, watching, learning, eating a lot. My mother was obsessed with creating an experience for lunch and dinner. She wanted us to have appetiser, main course, cheese, dessert on a different platter, different china with different flowers in between lunch and dinner. No repetitions during the week. It was like really incredible. And I thought it was normal. I thought everyone in the world eats like that. And it wasn't, of course. So I was very, very lucky to have access to soul food and refinement.

MG: I mean, it sounds like an obvious question having come out of that. But I mean, when did you realise that this was what you wanted to do? You dropped out of school, when you were 15 to go to culinary school? But when did you realise I want to take that and that's going to be my life?

ER: I always wanted to be a chef, so when I was five years old, six year old, I wanted to be a chef, not to cook, to eat. So I was naive, obviously, then I was a bad student because actually, instead of doing my homework at night, I would look at cookbooks and I would read cookbooks from, page after page and recipes of the recipes. And at 15 years old, when the principal said to my mom, it's over for him he has to go to a professional college, I was delighted because I was like, ah, now finally I'm going to be able to go to culinary school and become a chef because I really want to be the chefs. And it was my look, I discovered a lot in culinary school and then discovered even more when I started to work in restaurants and I had the passion and the fire to become the chef that I am today. I live the dream. Really.

MG: Let me talk about the passion and the fire. I mean, you were lucky enough to study under some of the renowned chefs in Paris. What was that experience like? What did you learn, you know, in the heat of the kitchen?

ER: Well, I learned a lot. So I started in [inaudible] 1982. I'm 17 years old. I think I know a lot because I graduated with honours and I realised after one day that I know nothing at all and I have to start again from scratch. Just on that first day, by the way, I cut myself, I burned the eggs. I don't find the herbs, I mean it's a disaster.

MG: And you are allowed to come back on the second day?

ER: And I was allowed to come back on the second day. And in [inaudible] I really learnt the classics. I learnt, of course, discipline, rigour, cleanliness and so on, but also craftsmanship. I mean, nobody's born with good knife skills. You have to learn. Nobody is not born with any skills that are required in kitchen. So I learned that in [inaudible]. And then I was lucky to be sent to [inaudible] kitchen [inaudible] at the time it was considered the best restaurant in the world with [inaudible] up there in Switzerland. And he was our god in the food world, but also the passion for perfection, seeking perfection, knowing that you will never achieve it. But no matter what, you still push and push and push the envelope to achieve that level that is close to perfection.

MG: I mean, you talk about rigour and discipline and how you thought of people as a God. I mean, those kitchens have a reputation, a well-earned reputation for being harsh places to learn as well. Disciplinarians, hierarchical, at times, abusive behaviour. Did you go through that as well?

ER: Of course I went through that. And at the time it was it was OK for the chef to be abusive. It was accepted to be insulted all day long. It was accepted to be kicked in the butt and punched in the shoulders. And it was accepted to have your dish sent back to you and see the plates flying in the kitchen and coming back at your feet. And that was part of our world in kitchen, and actually it was a philosophy that was, in my opinion, crazy, but they thought, we're taking some individuals, especially young, we’re going to break them psychologically and we're going to rebuild them and make them champions. But it was ridiculous because, first of all, it's no excuse to have anger and the behaviour in the kitchen, that is, it's not right, it's not acceptable. And in the process, you have a lot of people who have talent who are potentially quitting because it's too... It's not right. It's too tough. So that has changed a lot. And today, I hope most of the kitchens are civilised. I make sure that at the Le Bernardin, we have zero tolerance for any kind of abuse, any kind of misbehaviour. It's immediately the door. And because of that, we have a kitchen that is extremely peaceful. We have, of course, the stress of the service. I mean, it's tough to be in a restaurant kitchen, but nobody's afraid. Nobody's shaking. Nobody is stressed.

MG: You've spoken before about how Buddhism has helped you with that and has helped shape that philosophy. Can you tell me about that and how that practise has informed the kitchen that you just described?

ER: So I'm coming to America. And the first time I have a position of power, which is either with sous chef or chef, I'm basically emulating some of my mentors and I am an abusive, abusive chef. And what I realise is that all the staff is leaving. First of all, they are miserable with me. I am miserable and they are all quitting and they are going somewhere else. And one night I'm sitting at home and reflecting on my day and my journey and I'm thinking, why? What's wrong with me? Why am I so angry? And I realise, I was wrong. I was emulating some of my mentors and people who taught me. And I was like, this is not the way I wanted to be treated when I was a cook. This is not the way I should be treating people. So almost overnight, I changed my attitude in the kitchen. Now, Buddhism was coming into my life at the same time, I was starting to read books that say about Buddhism, and I was interested by the philosophy of Buddhism. Buddhism is three things. It can be a philosophy of religion, so belief and it can be also a science. And in early 2000, the Dalai Lama was teaching in New York, and it was my really first teaching from a great master and since then, I had many of the teachings from other masters. And I am a Buddhist practitioner and I strongly believe in a world where you do not, first of all, you do not harm people. You try not to harm yourself. I believe in karma. I believe that... We could go on and on because Buddhism could go very far. But to me there is no such a thing as anything living by itself. I believe that everything is interconnected, everything is a matter of cause and consequences, and that has changed my vision of the world. And I would stop here if you want, or we can go further.

MG: No, but I bet it seems like that has shaped how you see the work that you're doing in some ways, as you say, taking that culture, which has been written about and documented for decades in the kitchen and making it something very different.

ER: Well, I wake up every morning and before I go meditate, I'm saying to myself, today I'm lucky I'm waking up and I'm going to use all my energies to do good deeds. I'm going to make sure that I don't get angry. I'm gonna make sure I don't harm people. I'm going to make sure that I have a meaningful day and then I'm starting my meditation and then I'm starting my teachings and readings and so on and all of that. It's at home. So it's easy. It's a theory. Right. And then I leave the house and I am in the street and then I come to Le Berardin. I spend my journey here, my day here, and it gives me the opportunity to practise those good values.

MG: Let me just ask you a couple of other things. One is that this book comes out on the 20th of April, which is the same day that World Travelled by your friend Anthony Bourdain comes out.

ER: Yes.

MG: What do you think? We, I mean, we who followed him and kind of were electrified by his enthusiasm and his openness to the world, what do we miss in him not being here now, especially right now, as the world seems to kind of close in on itself a little bit?

ER: What we missed is if I may, you may have to cut that. But the no bullshit message from Anthony Bourdain. Anthony was travelling and he was reinventing journalism. He was not, he was not your average journalist because he was ultimately a reporter and he was teaching us that the world is not as big as we think and we are not as different as we think. We really are sharing the same values. We really have an appreciation for the same things. And by also being curious and by being courteous and polite and open, mind, you connect with cultures and you learn a lot from those cultures, from other parts of the world. And the exchange is very rewarding for both parties. And I think that is what we miss a lot about Anthony. He was first of all, he was himself. The cameras didn't exist. You know, I remember being with him so many times and we would have a good time. And suddenly the cameras would start to turn on and they would start the show. We had no idea. It didn't matter, and I think people miss that as well, because it made him very special, you felt like he was your friend, he was with you. He was such a natural behaviour. It was not like, oh, cameras, the lights, mic. OK, I'm in a certain way. He Was Anthony Bourdain. I think people miss that a lot.

MG: You both loved restaurants. And this is a time in this pandemic where we have seen an awful situation unfold in the industry that you're in, where restaurants are closing. What do we lose as restaurants struggle in this moment? Do you think?

ER: So, the pandemic has been a disaster for the hospitality industry, hotels, restaurants and so on. We lost actually in New York officially already 4000 restaurants. Those are [inaudible] numbers. It has been really, really, a tough challenge because from being open, suddenly we were mandatory closed for the right reasons. I'm not discussing the idea of being closed. We had to stop the pandemic. But it was tragic because restaurants bring communities together. When you have a restaurant suddenly. You of the neighbourhood, if it's not a distant destination, you have the neighbourhood that comes together and gather and exchange a good time and a meal and you see your neighbour on the other side of the room and at the bar is a friend. And you don't like that one too much, but it's OK. It's the life. Restaurants bring life. And yes, a lot of people cook at home, which is not a bad thing. I think it's good to cook at home, obviously, and to be with your loved ones and family and feel safe. I love that. But we can do both. We can cook for our family sometimes and be in our own environment. Or we can go to restaurants and basically travel a little bit, especially big, big city like New York or where you are in Toronto, you have so many different ethnicities, suddenly you are in India or you are in Italy or you are in Peru, anywhere. And again, you feel life it's something that the city missed. People in the city missed a lot, that energy that comes from the restaurant.

MG: I can't wait to feel that energy again. In the meantime, we will cook from this book and make full advantage of the spring vegetables that are available. Eric, it's a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much.

ER: I appreciate it. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

MG: Take care of yourself. Bye.

ER: Thank you. Bye bye.

MG: Eric Ripert, the executive chef and co-owner of Le Bernardin in New York City. His new book is called Vegetable Simple. It's out today. He mentioned poached green asparagus with hollandaise sauce. Sounds delicious. If you like that recipe from the new book, you can go to our website, CBC.ca/thecurrent. And if you make it. Do the right thing, take a photo and send it to us @TheCurrentCBC on Twitter.

MG: Coming up after your regional update, more and more migrants, particularly from Guatemala, are arriving at the southern U.S. border. They are leaving a desperate situation at home looking for asylum and hope in the United States. But the Biden administration is saying, stop coming. We will head to the Texas/Mexico border in just a moment. Stay with us. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Increasing number of Guatemala migrants heading to Mexico-U.S. bord

Guest: Celia Mendoza, Ana Maria Mendez, Anita Issacs

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current.

KAMALA HARRIS: We must address the symptoms, and that is what is happening with the team of folks who are working on the border. But we also have to deal with the root causes. Otherwise we are just in a perpetual system of only dealing with the symptoms.

MG: That's U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris speaking last week about the Biden administration's hope for addressing migration across its southern border. The situation at the U.S./Mexico border has become a defining issue of Joe Biden's first few months in office. Thousands of migrants have been making their way from Guatemala, Honduras and other parts of Latin America to claim asylum in the United States. We're going to hear more about what's causing so many to leave and what Washington hopes to do about it in a moment. But first, Celia Mendoza is a correspondent with Voice of America. She's on the border now where the number of migrants is increasing daily.

MG: Celia, good morning.

CELIA MENDOZA: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You have been travelling back and forth between the border towns of McAllen, Texas and Reynosa, Mexico. What are you seeing on the Mexican side?

CM: What we see now is hundreds, if not thousands of people that are waiting for an opportunity to cross the border, many of them have tried once or twice, even three times, to try to cross the border yesterday in Reynosa, which is right across Hidalgo, Texas, in this whole area called the Rio Grande Valley. We're trying to push authorities to let them in. They line up their kids in front of them and they walk to the border crossing area and they were asking authorities to let them in. For a brief moment, we saw the border being closed and the community to try to rally up, to let them know that this is not the first time that people are returning to Mexico, that they need to be patient. But what we are seeing is a humanitarian crisis that is building up along the border between Mexico and the United States with people having hopes to come into the United States and not be able to do it.

MG: How are they attempting to cross over?

CM: Right now, they were trying to basically ask authorities to let them in, we have to remember that under Title 42, which was implemented over a year ago during the Trump administration, due to the pandemic, the border is closed. Actually, Mexicans, they usually come back and forth. They're not able to do it because of that. But many of the other people that are there, they use human traffickers. They paid what is called [inaudible] to cross them. They use the river. And actually, one of the ladies that we heard from yesterday, she's pregnant and she said she's been there for two months and she tried three times. She actually effectively crossed into the United States and was immediately returned. The scene you can see when you drive around the border towns in the United States is patrols of the border police, as well as the Texas Department of Security supporting their work and buses and buses of people being picked up and just drive back into Mexico.

MG: You described it as a humanitarian crisis. I mean, what are the conditions like, the living conditions for those who are in Reynosa and along those border towns?

CM: We can definitely identify the lack of opportunities for these people to get shelter. A lot of them end up living in the trees, it's a park right across the border between Hidalgo and Reynosa. When you get out of the crossing point, it's a park and they're just living there for the past months, especially after the Biden administration. It started with the process of moving their MPP's, which are those people that were waiting in Mexico for asylum under the Trump administration. So they have the hope that they could also get in. And so we see them crowded as we've been in the street, flies everywhere. They don't have any sort of like bathrooms or places where they can wash their hands. We have to remember we're still in a pandemic. And many of the people, they want to go to a shelter, they just don't have that opportunity because every single shelter from the Mexican side is filled with people that are here because of the pandemic, because they've tried to come earlier, before during the Trump administration and they were not accepted into the MPP program. And because they just don't have any other place to go because home is nonexistent anymore, the hurricanes, the situation, the security. So a lot of them just are pretty much in limbo.

MG: You mentioned the program a couple of times. I mean, do they have asylum claims that are being processed at some level in the United States?

CM: During the Trump administration people had to wait in Mexico when they came to the border and that was called the migrant protection programme, which made them effectively wait in Mexico and come to the border to get the court date. So during the beginning of the Biden administration, an agreement was struck where it goes, about 25000 people are being crossed into the United States and that is supported by the United Nations. The Organisation for International Immigration provides the service of crossing them. And it's a whole process that is started in San Ysidro, which is the border entry in Tijuana and San Diego. And then it went all along the border. Over 7000 people have crossed until today, according to the latest figures. And the latest point to open was right here in the Rio Grande Valley in Piedras Negras, [inaudible] that area. And so people got a lot of hope that those 25000 people were able to get in. So then they also could get in. But we're talking about these people. They have been waiting for over two years in Mexico and they enter legally or at least they knock on the door in the port of entry to request asylum. Now, that is what the Biden administration wanted to do at that point. However, what we felt is that that became a message for traffickers and human smugglers to try to let people know in Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, that the border was open, even though that's not the actual message of the administration. So that became a very good promotion in social media. A lot of these people getting information through WhatsApp, Instagram, Tik-Tok, and they basically were sold the idea that they now could come and get in. That's something that we heard from many of them.

MG: I was going to say you've been speaking with a number of those who are trying to make that crossing. I want to play a little bit of an interview that you did recently.

[Sound Clip: From interview with a young boy]

MG: What are we hearing there?

CM: The little boy says, Please let us in, because here we have a lot of crime. And he's referring about Mexico where he is. But he was escaping from Guatemala, where the nine year old who we heard from was saying that he was the victim of attempted kidnapping and that the reason him and his mom left Guatemala, but also because they were trying to come to the United States to reunite with his father, who he doesn't really know. He actually in the interview talks about that, but is a very heartbreaking human situation to see a little boy at that age talking about asking the president of the United States to have compassion and to open the border for him and his mom. And he said and for the people that are waiting with us here to get in.

MG: Just in the last few seconds that we have, are those, like that little boy, are they hopeful that they're going to be able not just to cross, but actually stay in the United States?

CM: I believe that they do hope that. They think that if they make it into the United States, they will be able to stay in it. They don't have a lot of information about the asylum process. And most of them don't talk about like the Cubans and Nicaraguans and Venezuelans that would meet at the border. They have a more clear idea of what the asylum process is. These people say, I just want to come to get my kid a better future and to have a better job. But they believe they are just getting in, that's it. Even though the process is just starting, if they get in because Mexico is not taking a lot of the people back, especially the family units with little children are allowed to stay because Mexico is not taking them back. And when we heard from them and now I go to my destination and I'll get a job. But the problem is how they stay, with the court system and to prove asylum. That's a different question.

MG: Celia, good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

CM: Likewise, thank you.

MG: Celia Mendoza is a correspondent with Voice of America. She was in McAllen, Texas. The migrants that she has been speaking with are leaving their homes for any number of reasons. In Guatemala, hunger and food shortages are the main culprit. Ana Maria Mendez is a Central America cluster director for Oxfam Charity, aiming to end global poverty. She is in Guatemala City.

MG: Ana Maria, good morning to you.

ANA MARIA MENDEZ: Good morning, Matt. Thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks for being here. Describe the food situation right now in Guatemala. How dire is it?

ANA MARIA MENDEZ: OK. It's extremely dire. And I could give you some figures that can illustrate to Toronto, that is your public right now, at this moment, mainly. In 2019, we have been working with two million people just in the dry corridor that comes from Mexico all the way up to Panama. In 2020, during covid, this doubled to 4.4 people in need of urgent food security and assistance, which didn't happen. And after the horrible storms and the hurricanes that were two hurricanes in 15 days, the strongest two and almost 100 years, and now we have seven, four million people that only have one meal a day and one meal a day is mostly a tortilla with whatever. So this would be almost like the entire population of Toronto having one meal a day. And the forecast is they will have one meal a day for the entire 2021.

MG: And is the sense I mean, this is an ongoing problem. But you mentioned the storms and the hurricanes. Is that why this is particularly acute this year?

ANA MARIA MENDEZ: It's covid plus. It's covid plus. It has tripled due to covid where people lost their entire whatever source of jobs because there are no jobs and because family agriculture is not enough for these people because of impacts of climate change as the disregard of governments to invest and support these people and building up their livelihoods.

MG: So what's left for those families? If...

ANA MARIA MENDEZ: Nothing.

MG: Nothing. If they can't work and they don't have the food where they live, what are they supposed to do?

ANA MARIA MENDEZ: Plan C is migrate, even though they're fully understandable about the dangers of what it entails. And let me tell you, for example, we have registered that one out of four women that attempt migration are raped. And we know that the numbers are not accurate, but that is an estimate. We know about the amount of people and basically youth that are killed. The most recent massacre was in Mexico, performed by Mexican police. And there is no option. There is no Plan C. Plan A has failed. Plan B has failed, and Plan C is dangerous. But it's the only, it's the only option that we do have.

MG: What hasn't the government in Guatemala done to address this?

ANA MARIA MENDEZ: Guatemala lacks, historically lacks, as the rest of Central America of social protection and measures and keen investment in the people, mostly indigenous and mostly the poorest. There's also very historical structural issues regarding land tenure, where people are being taken out of their lands, the little parcels of land because of the extraordinary increase of mona crops that are widespread in the region. We have seen a 650 percent increase of land grabbing and land tenure by this international or national company, mostly national companies that hire little, but they have huge expansions. So people are losing their money. They sell sometimes whatever for whatever need, urgent need that they do have. But these people, whatever income they have, because they mostly live under three dollars a day, it's not enough to provide food. But even if they have a meagre earning any eventuality like a diarrhoea in a child or a fever will put them bankrupt. They also do not have access to credit, social support, technical assistance, water and sanitation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

MG: Where does that leave an organisation like yours? I mean, how are you going about trying to address in particular the food insecurity that that population would be facing?

ANA MARIA MENDEZ: We have been restricted according to our funds, and we have concentrated in the deepest and more hit areas by the dry corridor. Substantially trying to rebuild with the community, first community leadership, then trying to rebuild better communities to prevent impacts that we know that are recurrent. At least for the past 10 years, they have been recurrent, that we have very severe drought, droughts. And then when the rainy season comes in. It's not rain appreciated for agriculture, but it's rain that floods everything and destroys everything, including their households. So what we are trying to do is that we make a mixture of provision of food plus and we strongly believe in this, providing cash transfers mainly for women so that they can dynamite the little local economies and at the same time provide and be wise about what should the investment be invested in. And we think, honestly think, that supporting women and building up women and the capacities of women to assist is one of the main options in order to avoid migration.

MG: What about the United States? I mean, the vice president, Kamala Harris, said that she's going to go to Guatemala soon to slow migration to the U.S. border. Just finally and briefly, what are you hoping to see from the administration and the administration that has said that it's going to take a different approach to this issue?

ANA MARIA MENDEZ: We hope it is a different approach. It's not that the United States has not invested, but there should be a careful look of how investment is being done. We do not deny private enterprises entering, but we would like to see more and more direct money going directly to the communities. And, yes, I would say that government interventions have shown to be completely an effective, one because of the lack of interest. And second, because of the increase of corruption, we have almost failed states in the Northern Triangle. And for us it is important that aid counts and aid must come in a different manner. And there's many studies that have been performed about this. This is nothing that Oxfam is just saying. It's just that we are verified that millions of dollars had been showered in and no real impact has really happened.

MG: Ana Maria, this has been really helpful. I appreciate speaking with you this morning. Thank you.

ANA MARIA MENDEZ: Thank you.

MG: Ana Maria Mendez is the Central America cluster, director for Oxfam. She was in Guatemala City. The Biden administration wants to slow the tide of migrants by providing aid to their home countries, something that the administration hopes will be a more permanent solution. Anita Isaacs is a professor of political science at Haverford College and director of Migration Encounters. It's an oral history project on migration.

MG: Anita, good morning to you.

ANITA ISACCS: Good morning. Hi, Matt.

MG: Ana Maria was talking about addressing some of the root causes of what's happening in Guatemala, what are some of those root causes of this crisis?

AI: Well, the root causes go back several centuries, so the root causes stem really from the colonial era, which sowed the seeds of systemic and systematic exclusion of the majority of the population or close to the majority right now, which is indigenous, Mayan, which are also sort of the communities with which are living in the dry corridor, predominantly that are the areas most affected and that were so eloquently described by your previous guests. So the roots are historical, they're political, they're racial, they're geographic. They're compounded by each of these factors.

MG: How would you describe the government's, the current government in Guatemala and what the government has or hasn't done when it comes to this crisis?

AI: The government has done very little. Much like all the preceding governments, the current government represents sort of an intensification of building on the outgoing government that is basically thrown in its lot with organised criminal elements, has sown a pact with the elites, which represent a caste class in Guatemala and together basically have forged what Guatemalans described as a pact of the corrupt. It is as indifferent to the plight of the majority of its poorest citizens as previous governments. But in addition, has become increasingly affiliated with organised criminal elements.

MG: Ana Maria Mendez was talking about the importance of the rights kind of foreign aid. And you have written about this as well, that there needs to be a change in how the United States in particular approaches foreign aid to the region. She was talking about not just showering money, but being strategic. If you go back a little bit, I mean, how traditionally has the U.S. approached foreign policy in Guatemala and that area of Latin America?

AI: Well, I'd say that there are two things that are... That I would say in general responding to this quickly. One is that there's a problem because foreign aid is an industry. Foreign aid is typically administered by large sort of assistance companies, Beltway bandits, we call them. Sort of companies that are hired to disburse foreign aid and they disperse foreign aid in huge amounts to groups and individuals who can either compete successfully for those moneys and who are familiar and friendly with those corporations. And as a result of that, foreign aid tends to not go into communities in the kind of amounts or to the kinds of groups that have legitimacy and that can absorb those funds. And they also tend to be directed towards projects that communities are often ill equipped to undertake on their own. So there's a disconnect between the foreign aid industry and the needs of communities that are often uneducated, poor, extremely poor, uneducated, and who need capacity building, who need small amounts, and who live in a world sort of surrounded by corrupt officials who will greedily package that aid. That's one challenge. The second challenge is that. Sorry, go ahead.

MG: No, no, continue. No, go ahead.

AI: I'd say the second challenge is that the United States is stubbornly determined to work with the private sector in sort of in addressing the root causes of migration and dispersing foreign aid. And the problem in working with the private sector is that the U.S. assumes they need them as partners, but they are not partners. They are actors who are equally indifferent to the plight of their country's poor and who actually, they like the government, you know, benefit actually from migration in a couple of ways and have no real profound interest in stemming migration from the region. On the contrary, they benefit from it in two ways, I would say. One is that they manage to expel a population there. The population that is displaced through migration, if they were to stay, might actually mobilise, organise and demand their rights. And so it's quite convenient to have them live in the United States rather than in Guatemala. And the second thing is those who are abroad provide millions of dollars in remittances to communities which, you know, let the governments and the elites off the hook to actually contribute to the development of their own country.

MG: So I was just going to say, if the vice president and you'll have heard that the vice president is heading to Guatemala at some point in time soon, the president of Guatemala says that the government is open to reaching some sort of agreement around migration to the United States. Do you see a real opportunity there or is there the chance to try to find some common ground?

AI: I'm perpetually hopeful, although less and less so, I think that if the United States collaborates in with civil society and particularly with a new generation of members of Guatemalan civil society and works, sort of works with them to forge solutions that address not just the root causes of migration in terms of poverty and violence, but also in terms of governance and the absence or sort of limitations of democracy in the country, then I think we have a chance to move forward. But that also requires demanding, not giving free rein to the private sector, but saying that if the private sector wants to participate, they get to sit at the table as one more chair at the table rather than call the shots. So if it is a comprehensive strategy that addresses the root causes of migration that, you know, we have all defined as poverty, violence, gang violence, etc., but also corruption and also the limitations on democracy, then I think we have a chance to incrementally begin to address the causes and to begin to make Guatemala a country that people find liveable and where they have some kind of hope that they can forge their own future.

MG: In the meantime, in the last minute or so that we have, I mean, what happens to those migrants that Celia was describing who are at the border? Who are trying to figure out, having left the country, that, as you say, is not a country that they want to live in, that they feel like they need to flee. They're trying to get into the United States. They see that as some sort of promised land. What happens to them?

AI: What happens to them in the short term or what happens to them in the longer term?

MG: Well, as they wait?

AI: As they wait, the despair grows. I mean, they have left, I would say it's not just hopelessness, it's not just a humanitarian crisis at the border. The humanitarian crisis is in Guatemala. The people who are fleeing, are fleeing sort of out of despair. And for them, it's you know, it's become a choice about whether, frankly, whether to die at home or whether to take the chance to live and the risk of dying en route. They will stick it out. They will keep trying because they have no other alternative.

MG: But as you say, that's not much of a choice at all.

AI: No.

MG: Anita, it's great to speak with you, this has also been really helpful in untangling a situation that a lot of people are watching. Thank you very much.

AI: Thanks for having me.

MG: Anita Isaacs is a professor of political science at Haverford College. She is also the director of Migration Encounter's. It is an oral history project on migration.

MG: That is The Current for this Tuesday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q. The Oscars will be handed out on the weekend and one of the films up for three Academy Awards is One Night in Miami. Tom Power, this morning we'll be speaking with the Halifax born actor Eli Goree, who plays Cassius Clay, also known as Muhammad Ali, in this new film, One Night in Miami. It's fantastic. And you'll hear that conversation coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio One.

MG: Before we hand it over to Tom. One last bit of good news for you. You may have seen yesterday that there was a first in terms of space exploration, the first ever powered and controlled flight by an aircraft on another planet, a small helicopter, Ingenuity is its name, flew for less than a minute over the surface of Mars. This mission, you think about this, there's a helicopter on another planet that people are controlling from here. And this thing flew. It's being called a Wright Brothers moment. The helicopter was even carrying a small little piece of the Wright Brothers first plane. And the hope is that this small flight just a minute long can now lay the groundwork for much bigger leaps into the future. We will leave you this morning with the sounds from that historic flight. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Sound Clip: Sounds from the Ingenuity flight]

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