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The Current Transcript for September 9, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

ETHAN COLPITTS: There's thousands of healthy pink salmon in this river right in front of me, right where it connects to the ocean. They're all just swimming around, starting their trip up the river to spawn.

[Background noise: Beach sounds]

MATT GALLOWAY: Ethan Colpitts is on a beach on Moresby Island on Haida Gwaii. You can see the fish shimmering below the surface, and there are fins sticking out of the water too. And the fish are jumping.

ETHAN COLPITTS: Yeah, it's a hell of a sight. Never seen anything quite like it.

MG: He pulls out his fishing rod and casts into the river.

ETHAN COLPITTS: A bunch coming in now.

MG: It doesn't take long to catch one. Isn't there a saying, something about fish in a barrel?

ETHAN COLPITTS: There's one.

[Sound: Splash]

ETHAN COLPITTS: We'll tire him out a little bit and get him into the net.

MG: The hook pops out of the fish's mouth just as he's bringing it to shore.

ETHAN COLPITTS: That makes it easy.

MG: It makes it easy because he was going to throw it back anyway.

ETHAN COLPITTS: I won't forget this ever, seeing all these salmon and the black bears and everything about this place is super cool. Truly magical.

MG: I have been in Haida Gwaii, a group of islands off the north coast of British Columbia, for less than an hour, and already that word is being used-- magic. So many people who live here or have visited here say the same thing, and you see that magic as soon as you arrive. The fog lingering over the small islands, the 300-year-old cedar and spruce trees, the bald eagles gliding overhead. I'm here on Haida Gwaii tech to talk to people about an historic land agreement. Earlier this year, the B.C. government officially recognized the Haida Nations Aboriginal title over the islands of Haida Gwaii. It's a right the Haida say they never gave up. Governments are just finally coming around to acknowledging it. Later, I'll speak with the president of the Haida Nation to get details of the agreement. But first, a look back at that fight to protect the land of Haida Gwaii. This is a campaign that has been going on for decades. A campaign that's mostly been waged in the woods. And that is where we start today-- in an old growth forest just outside of massive Haida Gwaii. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Haida Gwaii’s future, Haida Gwaii’s past

Guests: Jaalen Edenshaw, Haana Edenshaw, Guujaaw Edenshaw

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: [Unclear] here and walk up.

MG: Okay.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Let's go for a hike.

MG: Just off the highway is a gravel road. It leads straight up a hill to a cell phone tower and a gravel pit.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: You're hearing me huffing and puffing.

MG: It is a steep hill. The road is relatively new, but the woods surrounding us have been used by generations of Haida.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: It's not very far.

MG: We'll get there when we get there.

MG: My guide is Jaalen Edenshaw. He and his daughter Haana are taking us to look for an ancient canoe deep in the forest.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: What's special about it is when Guuj and them were first, you know, trying to get areas protected, this canoe was one of the first spots where they were able to stop the logging.

MG: Okay.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: You'll see it, take a walk around it.

MG: Guuj is Guujaaw-- Jaalen's dad, an elder and hereditary chief who's one of the people that's been working to protect this land for decades. When Guuj found the canoe, he was able to get an injunction to stop the logging.

SOUNDCLIP

HAANA EDENSHAW: I think this is a bit too high.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Okay. -.

MG: And let's be clear, finding it isn't easy.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: The road goes in and then it splits into two.

HAANA EDENSHAW: I remember!

MG: Even Jaalen missed the trail off the main road the first time, we circle back, and it's Haana who leads the way.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: This it?

HAANA EDENSHAW: Yup.

MG: The trail in the woods starts nicely enough, but it does not take long before we are quite literally bushwhack. Pushing through thick shrubs. Climbing over fallen trees covered in moss.

HAANA EDENSHAW: Okay back their Matt?

MG: Yes, I am, thank you. Slight detour into the woods.

MG: I can report from some experience that falling isn't so bad because it's into a thick bed of moss.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: How old would these trees be?

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Probably three or four hundred years here. Some of the bigger ones, maybe 500.

MG: The air is cooler. And the sunshine filters through the giant cedars like splinters.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: You can see on this side here; everything has been logged on this side. And then over here, it's old growth forest. And, that all is protected because of the canoe we're going to go see.

MG: There's a clearing and Jaalen stops next to it. Looks like a tree that has fallen in the woods. It's on a 45-degree angle covered in moss.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: So, here's the canoe right here. You can see the stump there where it was cut. This is where it fell. And then there's the front of it. You can see sort of the shape of it started there. And then once that was done, they could steam it and probably get it open another foot or so.

MG: And this would be from how long ago?

JAALEN EDENSHAW: If I had to guess, I'd say the 1860s. And that's when the smallpox hit. And most of the canoes come from that time.

MG: You were saying, as we were coming in, that, I mean, this area was slated to be completely logged?

JAALEN EDENSHAW: In those days, you know, if they saw a canoe like this, they'd either just move it off site or they'd fall the trees away and then just leave it. But then once it's open, it would, you know, degrade pretty quick. So Guujaaw and Captain Gold and the leadership from that day, when they found this canoe, they actually got an injunction against the logging companies and were able to stop it. And that injunction has never been overturned. You know, this was sort of one of the first cases where they were able to protect an area because of our ancient sites here. You know, the title agreement is, you know, it's an amazing step forward. But, you know, the leadership over the years, like it's already law, P.C. law to protect these areas. And that's based on the work that we did to make that happen. But yeah, going forward, you know, we make the rules and make sure that people abide by them.

MG: From your perspective, I mean personally, but also like for the Haida Gwaii, why is it important to know about these sites?

JAALEN EDENSHAW: You know, in-- like things are going to be different now in this new landscape of government recognizing Haida title. But you know, up until now we've had to use our culture and things like this old canoe and the monumental ceadar and the medicinal plants to protect these areas, and the argument being that we need these things to exist as a people. And it's true. Right? This, our culture, who we are, comes from Haida Gwaii, from the land. So, this is exactly who we are right here.

MG: We stand for a minute, taking in the silence of the forest. And try to imagine what it would have taken more than a century ago to fill this tree, carve it into a canoe, and then carry it out through the forest and down to the water.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: In their Haida stories, it was, the supernatural that showed us how to make the canoe. And when they were doing it, the one guy would go up into the bush and would hear, hear the supernatural working on it all night. And then go up and look. And it would be made in different stages. And that's how we learned to make it is by coming up into the bush and seeing these canoes in different stages. And so, that's what my dad told me is that's how they learned, you know, it all ties together.

HAANA EDENSHAW: There's so much to learn from being here. Just like hearing that stories, thinking about how like, if Guuj wasn't like, out here and exploring the bush and found this, then, you know, like, none of this would be here for him to take you into or you to take me into, which is like, as long as we're on the land, you know, like making use of it, it'll be there for us. I feel really lucky.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: How's your time?

MG: Just about 4:00. Ten to 4:00, five to 4:00.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Guuj--I got a text from Guuj saying he's on his way. So, he's probably another hour.

MG: Okay.

MG: Guujaaw is on his way from Skidegate to meet us at Jaalen's carving shed so we can talk to three generations of this family all at once.

SOUNDCLIP

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: How are you doing?

MG: How are you?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: Oh, it's lovely they sent the real thing.

MG: Matt.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Matt.

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: Guujaaw.

MG: Nice to meet you.

MG: Guujaaw's seated next to a massive piece of cedar. Animals and faces are taking shape. He commissioned his sons to carve this totem pole. The raising ceremony is in October.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Just let him carve while you're talking.

MG: Jaalen still has lots of work to do, so he immediately slides underneath the pole and continues the work of carving out the face of one of three watchmen.

SOUNDCLIP

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: He's carving [unclear.].

MG: I start by asking Guujaaw about his activism in the past, and how that relates to the land title agreement that's just been signed.

SOUNDCLIP

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: You know, like there's no sense of having rights to fish if there's no fish. Or right to a culture if there's no cedar and no land to relate to. And so, they both work together.

MG: And so, that designation from the government, what does that mean to you? The fact that the government has said the Haida have title?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: No, that is not a designation. That's a recognition. The title doesn't come from them, it doesn't come from the Crown, doesn't come from the court, it comes from our ancestry. They're recognizing inherent title.

MG: What does that mean?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: What we have right now, is we have, you know, we have a transition period. But basically, the land is going back into the hands of the people who love it the most. You know, after 100 years of abuse of the forest, of the salmon, halibut, everything that they've managed has been treated with disdain.

MG: Did you ever imagine that you would get to this moment? I mean, there's been court battles that are still continuing, but that the adversarial kind of fight might be won?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: Oh, I knew we'd win.

MG: You knew you'd win?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: Yeah. We did a lot of things with other governments. You know, we won a lot of court cases. We won a lot of stands. We did a lot of things that led to this moment. But, you know, it wasn't automatic. It wasn't going to come freely. But in the end, you know, really there is not much other choice.

MG: What do you mean there wasn't much other choice?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: They couldn't beat us. You know, I think the feeling around the island is, you know, there's a certain edge off. You know, there's still a lot of things to do. For instance, you know, all around the world, similar things are happening. Economies are built by spoiling the Earth. You know, like we have tide rising here. We have climate changing, the land drying out. And so, it's a global fight. It's not just here, you know, there's no sitting back and saying, okay, we're okay, and trying to enjoy being the last one standing or something. It's a fight that involves everybody. It should be. And the fight is against systems that have developed that are just spoiling the Earth.

MG: When you think about it, what is your vision for what Haida Gwaii could be now that part of the fight is over?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: Well, in vision, I think we got to recognize that the most valuable thing we have here is nature. And from the nature here, that's where we get our culture. And so, the future has got to allow for the next generations to enjoy nature and culture.

MG: Does it make you, I mean, when you hear that next generation that's here, that's picking up, in some ways what you've been doing, how does that make you feel?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: Well, it's good. That's the way it's supposed to be. If these guys didn't know how to fish and they didn't know how to carve and they didn't know how to sing the--well, they don't have to be able to be good at singing. But if they, you know, then we, my generation would have failed them.

MG: We're standing in front of-- I'm standing in front of., You're sitting in front of this pole that's being carved. Well, what does this mean? That this is happening for you?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: My job here is to come and make sure they're not making any major mistakes or anything. Gentle criticism. But, yeah, it's going to be a nice pole to be a nice event. And the event is a celebration of culture. That's when the masks and things come out. That's when people are singing and putting on all their best stuff that their families have made for them, or they made for themselves. And that is the key to keeping a culture going.

MG: I want to talk to your son, who's like, on the floor in the midst of this carving, in speaking with your dad about what the title recognition has meant to him and to the community, as somebody who grew up watching his work, what was that like?

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Yeah, I remember as a little kid, you know, watching Guuj editing papers and changing Queen Charlotte Islands, crossing it out and reading Haida Gwaii. And then ten or so years ago, you know, having Haida Gwaii again recognised. And we gave back the name Queen Charlotte to the government.

MG: Because of his work.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Because of his work and other leaders. You know, there's been a lot and I've been lucky to sort of grow up around some of those leaders. You know, just hanging out in the meetings or mostly just waiting outside as he's in a meeting. But, you know, it's a unique experience to see that.

MG: Tell us what you're carving. What is this that we're in front of?

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Oh, me and my brother Gwaai are carving a pole for our dad, Guujaaw. And so, just about done. We're closing in on it.

MG: That's no small amount of pressure. I mean, it's a special client to be working for.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Yeah. And he, you know, he was, you know, sort of our first teacher in the art. And, you know, he's a carver himself. So, he has a lot of input, which can be tricky sometimes.

MG: You're being diplomatic because he's sitting right there.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: He's sitting right there. [laughs]

MG: You took us out into the bush to see a canoe that had been left there. And you took us out with your daughter, Haana. What do you see in terms of that potential of the next generation? This feels like a special time.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: It is a real special time. And it's a time when the energy that has been going to fighting a lot of these things over the last, you know, 50 years, 100 years can turn to creating and building on our people's strength. And, you know, I think that's what my parents’ generation will leave, you know, to their grandchildren. You know, it's a time where they can put that same energy into sort of strengthening our culture.

MG: Do you see that now in Haana?

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Oh, yeah. She's been fighting since she was quite young. And, you know, she's definitely not shy to get involved in those battles. Interestingly, she's, you know, definitely been focused sort of outside the Haida fight a little bit, but, you know, is involved with climate change battles and stuff and, you know, I think that's something that we all got to be concerned with. So...

MG: Haana, knowing what you know about the fights that your grandfather was involved in, and the moment that the Haida are in now, how do you see the work that he did?

HAANA EDENSHAW: I see the work that Guuj did and the work that leaders of sort of his generation did to bring us to this point where we are today as like some of the most important, influential thing. Like, my upbringing and how I was able to be raised, how my siblings and people in my generation were able to be raised. So yeah, I see that work is just integral into shaping this island as it is today and as I've come to live in it.

MG: How do you think it's shaped you?

HAANA EDENSHAW: My dad and my-- and Guujaaw, they always say like that this island doesn't belong to us. It's like we belong to this island. My mom, she's a Haida language professor. She's finishing getting her PhD, and my dad's a carver, so it's like practising the culture has always been, like, on the forefront of my parents’ minds. And so, in my mind, growing up, my dad's, like, my whole life really encouraged me to learn Haida stories. When I was little, he would take me to elders houses and he would tape record them as they told him stories, and...

JAALEN EDENSHAW: She'd hide under the table and eat the sugar out of the...

HAANA EDENSHAW: I would listen, too. I would do both.

MG: You're talented.

HAANA EDENSHAW: Yeah. I think those stories are some of, like, the most, like, interesting and most worthwhile things I've ever heard. I go to Potlatchs, I see people dancing and people dedicated so much of their lives to retaining, learning, passing on that knowledge, and it just feels like, not necessarily like an obligation, but like, a privilege is like to pass that forward.

MG: Your dad said something interesting in that, I mean, now that that energy from the fight doesn't need to be directed towards the fight, it can be directed towards something else. And Guujaaw talked about that as well, that it can be sent towards something building, and that's the next phase of it. What do you see as your vision for this place?

HAANA EDENSHAW: That's a really good question. I think, growing up, the way I sort of heard sort of connected people like practising our culture to a fight because it's something Canada was trying to prevent us being on our land, us practising our culture. I'm really excited for, you know, for like my generation and future generations, for that not to be a fight. For that just to be like, living.

MG: What do you think your role is in this? I mean, you're now going to school at UBC. Are you going to come back here?

HAANA EDENSHAW: Yeah, absolutely. I want to come back here. I think there's a lot of hope and a lot of excitement. I'm not really sure what it's going to look like, but I want to be around to kind of witness a really historic moment.

MG: Guujaaw, you must be proud of her. When you hear that, I mean, what goes through your mind?

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: Well, you look at, on a generation, seeing, you know, the climate issues, for one thing, you know, like, nothing certain anymore. And to provide some, any degree of certainty is going to be helpful. And, you know, hopefully we'll set an example that will start to resonate across the country and around the world. Being that protecting land and looking after the earth is a good thing to do. I mean, it's nice to see it healing and to work with it and to build it back up and to take this win and enjoy the moment. But we don't expect that that's end of our fight with big oil or all these things that we've had to deal with already. We've got to deal with it as it comes. And again, not just me or my family, but all the families here, the other families who live on this island that worked with us to protect land. They've, you know-- talk about the ones who aren't Haida. They've stood with us, because as they're living here, they come to rely on the land. A lot of them have relatives buried here now, and it starts to become more a part of them. And they feel some obligation to look after it. Really, in my lifetime, from having no influence to, you know, having almost full responsibility for what's going to occur next. And so, that is, you know, a tough position, but a good position to be in.

MG: It's really great to talk to you. A pleasure and an honour to meet you here, especially while this work is going on with these three generations coming together. Thank you.

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: Yeah. Thank you for coming all the way out here to do this.

MG: You also were really good in doing an interview while you're carving away multitasking.

GUUJAAW EDENSHAW: I hope you didn't [unclear.]

MG: Yeah, I was going to say. Blame me, blame the CBC for that.

[laughs].

MG: Guujaaw is a Haida hereditary chief, a negotiator. Jaalen Edenshaw is a carver. Haana Edenshaw is a UBC student and climate change activist. I spoke with all of them on Massett, on Haida Gwaii, a group of islands on the northern coast of British Columbia.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Coming up after CBC News, we'll speak with the present day Haida leader, Gaagwiis, about the negotiations. That's coming up on The Current.

[Music: Fades up]

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Today we're bringing you stories from the archipelago of Haida Gwaii in British Columbia. In April, the Haida Nation signed an historic land title agreement with the B.C. government, recognizing Haida title to that land. My next guest knows well what it took to come to a deal.

SOUNDCLIP

GAAGWIIS: Good morning. I'm Gaagwiis, my Haida name. Jason Alsop, the elected president of the Haida Nation. And we are sitting in front of the Haida Heritage Centre and Haida Gwaii Museum. Kay Llnagaayle , also known as Sea Lion Town or Second Beach, just outside of Skidegate, Haida Gwaii.

MG: One of the things that people have been paying attention to, certainly in the last little bit, but this is a long journey to get to this point, is this agreement around title. Tell me about it and what it means to you and what it means to this place, but also the people who are here.

GAAGWIIS: The Haida Title Lands Agreement between the Haida Nation and British Columbia ultimately means an act of yahguudangang, or respect by the province to, you know, finally recognize Haida title Haida ownership, collective ownership, of all the islands, and it creates the space to then look at designing a future for Haida Gwaii that recognizes this inherent title that pre-existed the Crown, existed today will exist in the future, and it moves us from an adversarial position to actually be able to properly collaborate and cooperate with the people of the islands who've come to settle and live here in the Haida nation and the province and Canada to create a foundation now that is based on our Haida history, our culture, our values. That is undisputed and not in that arena of conflict.

MG: What is the language around this matter? I mean, part of this is about this has been referred to as giving title to the Haida Nation. But you talked about recognizing title.

GAAGWIIS: Yeah. The language is very important. The province hasn't given us anything with this agreement. In fact, they're they're recognizing what existed again before the Crown tried to come and assert themselves here. They're recognizing Haida Aboriginal title within the constructs of the Canadian constitution. But it also does in our agreement, you know, acknowledge and reference inherent Haida title, which is our responsibility we have inherited from our ancestors. Now that title is recognized, you know, we can all begin looking at the different jurisdictions that exist. And how do we try to reconcile these things and bring them together or figure out, you know, what the best path for the future is? You know, led by the people who live here, the Haida people and our friends and neighbours who we share the islands with.

MG: There's-- the phrase that that has been used over the last several years, is this phrase-- land back. Do you see this as an example of that?

GAAGWIIS: In some way. I think if we're using the language to say, well, they're not giving us anything, we already had the land. I think what it does is it again moves us from a place of conflict where when the Haida nation has to stand up and uphold our values, which essentially, you know, our laws and they're in conflict with provincial laws, you know, that triggers a space where then under provincial law, you end up in the courts, you end up with injunctions and RCMP, you end up down that path. And by recognizing title, it opens up that space for us to work through those areas of jurisdictional conflict or different values. And with the Haida way of being as the foundation and what will lead the way.

MG: So, what is that going to mean? The Haida way of being? How is that, I mean, talk about specifics. How is that going to change life here?

GAAGWIIS: Our focus in the agreement has been on the land. Obviously, it's to recognize title to all the land. And what that means is creating a future that isn't two conflicting laws, but, you know, one clear path forward and one that is based on Haida ways of being, Haida values, which means that we recognize the interconnection of everything. And look at it, I believe, more holistically. You know what our experience has been under colonisation and provincial laws is you kind of end up with, you know, a single minded focus at times, you know, which is centred around generating revenues and profits for companies and royalties for government that, you know, hasn't invested back into the islands, into the people, it hasn't considered in forestry, for example, all of the different beings in the forest, the salmon, the people, the effects on the people. And so, we'll get to look at it in design, how land use goes forward, trying to strike this balance between, you know, that we do need money, there is economic needs and sustainability, but to open that space so we aren't limited by legislation or these other things that sometimes constrict creativity for the innovation that I think the people of the islands have been starving for to look at, how do we get more out of the resources? How do we leave more of the value here? How do we invest back in the islands? And the system, as it has been, has not been designed to work that way for us, for the people who live here.

MG: There have been years of conflict between those extractive industries, forestry in particular, and folks here in Haida Gwaii. What does that mean in future for the future of those industries? Will there be, for example, a forestry industry, given the fact that it does produce revenue for people here, for other companies as well? Is there a future for that sort of industry, do you think, under this new agreement?

GAAGWIIS: I believe there is, but I think we're all going to have to re-examine our experience of what we've all lived with and have come to know for generations. We've seen a shift from, I guess, the early days, lower tech forestry with axes and hand saws to heavy industrial extraction. And so, there is a a future again, where if we can really work together here and, you know, look at Haida Gwaii landscape as a whole, we got areas, you know, half of the island is protected in our protection. I mean, right now, the Haida Nation is the owner of the largest tree farm licence on Haida Gwaii. So, we own a forestry company. However, it's still a tree farm license. And so, you know, that within itself comes under the constraints of the Forest Act. And I think it's also important just to, you know, to try to create a solid foundation of conditions and certainty so people know exactly, you know, what's allowed, what's not allowed, where they can go, how to harvest. And, you know, really getting to that kind of spatial level together and, you know, working with, you know, the Haida Nation, but also the people of the islands who live here. There's a lot of people with great experiences and ideas. And it's like, how do you take ideas and go through that process of seeing, you know, is there a reality there of something we can actually bring to market and implement?

MG: How do you make that work for everybody? I mean, as part of all the people who are here, as you said, there's a Haida Nation. There are also people who have come here, the population is almost split down the middle terms of Indigenous and non-Indigenous. And we've spoken with some people who, they don't know the details of what's coming. There's not a lot of information yet. They feel a sense of uncertainty about what might be coming down the road because of a change. They might support it, but they don't know what this is going to mean for them, what it's going to mean for their livelihoods, what it's going to mean for the property that they may have lived on for generations. How do you make that work for everybody?

GAAGWIIS: Communication, inclusion. I would say, you know, I think we have solidified in our agreement with the province that people's property, their [unclear] land, that is secured.

MG: Although there's legal kind of dispute around this, which is people are trying to figure out whether the two can coexist.

GAAGWIIS: I don't think there's official legal dispute. I think there's been some opinions that had come up and got attention. But if we unpack those with those people, they in fact came around and said, well, actually we do understand and recognize Aboriginal title and the ability of the nation to consent to it is a legal, solid legal foundation. If we look back at our history, we've always been respectful and mindful of others who live here.

MG: Do you understand that uncertainty that people are living in right now?

GAAGWIIS: I do, I do, and it's not just settlers or people who aren't Haida who have that uncertainty. There's Haida people who are also asking the same questions. We've designed it in a way where I believe we can take the steps at the pace that makes sense for the islands and bring everybody along with it. One of the beautiful things about here, and kind of where we're at, is a lot of wealth and extraction and destruction has happened over the years. And the people who have stayed here in those municipal or settler communities, they love this place as well. And everybody wants to see the best future for the land. We all love the land. We all love this place. We all want to look after it. But obviously it's got to be led by the Haida Nation, the Haida people. And in our deep history here, and our experience here, you know, I do believe that everybody will have their voice and opportunity to be to be part of it. And it's going to take all of us working together to actually make it happen. There is, there's isn't that many of us here, and we need everybody to be part of it and chipping in how they can on all levels of society as we kind of go down this path of reconciliation, reconciling laws and looking at a different way of running things in the future.

MG: What do you think this means? Reconciliation is kind of like one of those Rorschach tests, right? People see what they want to see in that word, and it means so much to different people. What is this? I don't want to say it's an experiment, but I mean, it is, it's something different. And it's a big change. What do you think that means in the context of reconciliation?

GAAGWIIS: The term reconciliation, I do understand the different perspectives, there are opinions that come up and they try to break it down into the levels that it exists at. At the big government to government level, we are looking at reconciling laws. We have our laws, they have their laws. Ours traditionally have been passed down through oral tradition. They're in our carvings, they're in our oral narratives, our histories, our stories. And they played out amongst clans and chiefs and through our potlatch system. And that still exists. And that's revitalizing in this era. The provincial government has legislation and acts and regulation. And when we have different decisions, they come into conflict. So, we are truly looking at, okay, how can they work together? Where will they work together? Where will it be primarily Haida? You know, we've seen areas like highways where provincial jurisdiction can stay, health care like, in the, you know, in the agreement, we've laid out some things that will stay status quo in the areas that are priorities to focus on early on in this process. But it's an ongoing process. And I guess I would say this reconciliation happens at all levels, at an individual level where people talk, work through it, as islanders. And so, it's layered in how you look at really trying to figure out how to come together and maybe take the best of both of our worlds.

MG: For you, outside of the role, the official role that you're in, what does this mean to you?

GAAGWIIS: It's hard to separate the roles, I guess, on some level, but as a Haida person, as an uncle, it means that in this generation and time, we've been able to continue the work of those who came before us and all support each other in it to get to this point that, you know, many people who are alive today and many people who've passed never thought they would see this day. And so, to bring us there is rewarding as an uncle and just thinking about the kids and the future generations, I feel excited and, you know, a little bit proud, I guess. But really excited that what had been a conflict for well over 100 years between the Haida Nation and the Crown can be resolved. It is important that we've been able to at least, like I said, move out from this space of conflict to, you know, truly learning how to collaborate together.

MG: Like, if I was to talk to you in five or ten years time, what would you want this place to be? What would, how would you see this place being different?

GAAGWIIS: Well, five or ten years is not that far down the road, but I-- you know, I think we can see a world where we are adding value to our forest resources like our ancestors did, in a better way. We can see a world where there is more renewable energies that are supporting that value added industry. We could see worlds where the world really appreciates and respects the value of the resources that we're deciding to share them. We're not forced to share them. And we design how that look. So, that concept of adding value is appreciating that, you know, a wild salmon is a rare thing in these days. They face a lot of challenges. And, you know, if we can maximize what we decide to share with the outside world, how that works, how they get to market, what the story is behind it. You know, I can't tell you all the exactly what it's going to be because people are going to have to step forward, and if we can create that space and conditions for them, then I think we can unlock what our ancestors had figured out of how to find that balance of trading outside of here and maintaining a society here. But there's been a lack of, I think, creativity. And we can find the balance between, again, extraction, creative industries, intellectual property. And that is a foundation of Haida culture, that intellectual properties were valued and respected between clans. And that's what our culture is based on. So, we get back to that way of thinking and that space and led by the Haida culture, we can turn that around.

MG: It's really great to talk to you. Thank you very much.

GAAGWIIS: Thanks, Matt. Thank you for coming.

MG: Gaawiis is president of the Haida Nation.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Head north on Queen Charlotte's highway, Yellowhead Highway West toward 1 Beach Road.

MG: The next stop is Port Clements, less than an hour drive north of Skidegate.

SOUNDCLIP

DALE LORE: My name is Dale Lore. I live in Port Clements. Came here on Valentine's Day, 1987. Told my wife, I hope you like it here, because after the first day I had found home.

MG: Dale Lore is a former mayor and a former lobbyist.

SOUNDCLIP

DALE LORE: Do you want a coffee or do you want orange juice?

MG: It's great out... I just want to have a look at your [unclear.].

DALE LORE: Okay. Come on out.

MG: He's a real character. And he and his wife own the general store in.

SOUNDCLIP

MG: You've got a little bit of everything in here.

DALE LORE: Yeah, there's 5900 products in here.

MG: How much?

DALE LORE: 5900.

MG: Dale loves to talk.

SOUNDCLIP

DALE LORE: This is kind of the heart and soul. It's the social centre of town.

MG: But he doesn't want to talk here.

SOUNDCLIP

DALE LORE: All right. Jump in this white truck here.

MG: He takes us just outside of town.

SOUNDCLIP

DALE LORE: Come in here for a second.

MG: In the forest.

SOUNDCLIP

DALE LORE: So, this is the secret spruce.

MG: We talk at the foot of a giant spruce tree.

SOUNDCLIP

DALE LORE: One of the big things my people came here for. They're strong, they're straight, and they're worth a small fortune. And by the time...

MG: I ask him about the land title agreement and what it means for this place.

SOUNDCLIP

DALE LORE: The devil's in the details. The next, 14 to 18 months of negotiations are huge. Whatever isn't negotiated, then we'll go to court.

MG: What have you heard? What are people talking about when it comes to this agreement?

DALE LORE: Well, here's the interesting part. Not nearly as much as you would expect. It's more like everybody just took it in stride of knowing that this was eventually going to happen. The surprise was it happened before all the resources were taken. But aside from a couple of the rich logging companies that are local, haven't heard anything negative. And on the positive side, a real sense of satisfaction that they're acknowledging that this is our land. That's huge. It's put way more smiles on faces. I see a bigger difference in Haida communities than in our communities. Our communities are just kind of looking at it going, well, I guess my land is going to get more valuable, right? This is the way it works. The law of supply and demand. The nice part of it is we won't have anybody else to blame. Whatever happens, it'll be us. If we can build, you're going to look at paradise. I believe we can. I believe there'll be some rough moments, just the way the world works. But we still had 20 years worth of steeling, you know, stuff that they could have stole. What I really want to give the province credit for, and this is hard for me, I've got a 40 year hate on for those guys. They did the right thing before they had to do it. It's the first time in history that I can find where my culture gave some land back that wasn't at the point of a gun, right? That's what I find so amazing. It's just, it's a magical, magical place.

MG: And you're confident, I guess, just finally, that that agreement will preserve the magic of that place?

DALE LORE: Yes.

MG: That's what we've heard endlessly, is that this is a magical place. And you're confident that that will be preserved by this agreement?

DALE LORE: It will certainly give us a better chance. Can it still get screwed up? We're humans, of course. But more and more, it's looking like we'll have the decision making with local people. The advantage to that is we know where each other's wives and husbands work and live. If you annoy people and do stupid things, it becomes very painful for you. So, that pressure is probably what keeps us safest. It's just the way it is, right?

MG: I'm glad to be out here under this tree talking to you. Thank you very much.

DALE LORE: No problem. Now, let's just show you a cedar tree here. So, this tree is about 800 years old.

MG: Dale Lore could talk about those trees all day. Just to be clear, they are amazing, as well. Dale lives in Port Clements in Haida Gwaii. I should say that we did talk to lots of people on the islands about this deal. We couldn't find anyone who would say on the record that they are worried about the implications. But there are those looking at the agreement from afar, wondering about the precedent that it sets. Thomas Isaac is a lawyer and partner with Cassels Law in Vancouver. Thomas, good morning to you.

THOMAS ISAAC: Hi. Good morning. Nice to be with you.

MG: It's great to have you on the program. We just heard from Gaagwiis, who's president of the Haida Nation. He says that private property rights on Haida Gwaii will not change. And that's a sentiment that we heard shared widely on Haida Gwaii. You have written that you can't have two exclusive rights to a single piece of land. So, why are you concerned?

THOMAS ISAAC: Well, I think it's a sort of self-fulfilling statement. How can you have an exclusive right to land, which is Aboriginal title and at the same time have an exclusive right to land for private property of land owners? What I've also said is, look, absolutely, we know under existing case law that acknowledgement of Aboriginal title by agreement is possible. So, to be very clear, my comments are not against the idea of government acknowledging Aboriginal title. By agreement. The issue is, is doing it properly, doing it responsibly.

MG: You've also said that this is a rush job. Another rush job at reconciliation, with little thought given to the long term effects and that it's reckless. What are the long term effects that you're concerned about?

THOMAS ISAAC: Well, the long term effects is-- and look, you even heard the interviewees raising the issues of, there's lots of, you know, the devil is in the detail, I believe somebody referred to. Well, it's a bit more than that. We need to understand how these simple title can coexist with Aboriginal title. So, for example, the agreement itself, and I say this with respect, but my comments are focused on the province. It's poorly drafted. There's no carve out for democratic rights of those people living on Haida Gwaii who are not Haida. Fee simple land could have been excluded, Matt. The province chose not to exclude it. There are no public lands set aside except for core infrastructure. And then finally, all of this is set out in an agreement that Canada has not signed onto formally, and two, is not set out in a treaty. So, you have the commitment in the agreement, it's section 4.4 for your listeners that says the Haida Nation consents to and will honour fee simple interests. And the question is, is, well, first of all, that's by way of agreement. The Haida at some point could decide they don't want to be bound by the agreement, which, by the way, would be their right. And the bigger question is, is, well, is that enough to give everybody comfort about taking care of their fee simple or their private land holdings? And in some cases this is generations of wealth built up. So, from that precedent perspective, the agreement raises many more questions and provides answers. And I think you heard some of this from the folks that you interviewed about, you know, the litigation isn't even settled yet. And so, all of this, my focus has been on the province and the lack of clear guidance forward on what I consider to be very, very important questions of democratic rights, for example, as well, which I think can be dealt with. But, you know, you don't sign an agreement and then say, well, we're going to work all that out later. You can do that if they're not core values. I'm going to argue that rights to vote in elections, your private property rights, are more than just things that can be worked out later.

MG: Just before I let you go, we just have a minute or so left. People, as I said, are watching this. Not just across the country, but we heard, you know, people are arriving from around the world to examine how this is going to unfold. What are you worried about when it comes to the precedent that it might set? Just very briefly.

THOMAS ISAAC: Well, the key point on the precedent, again, isn't whether you can acknowledge title by agreement, Matt. The issue is, is how you do it. And I stand by my criticism of the provincial government that has done this in such a haphazard way. Reconciliation is important business. It requires thoughtfulness, it requires prudence. And so, I think that's the standard we should be holding our public governments to. You know, Matt, if you were to ask other First Nations, are, would they like to have 100 per cent of their traditional territory acknowledged by the province, I'm sure you would get them to say yes, they would. And ask them if they see any of those deals coming down the pipe. And so, this is the bigger issue of, this is the one off. But what is the game plan for British Columbia as a province moving forward? And I think that if we're serious about reconciliation, we have to start addressing that question. This agreement does not address that question at all.

MG: We'll leave it there. I'm glad to have you here. Thank you very much.

THOMAS ISAAC: Thank you.

MG: Thomas Isaac is a partner with Cassels Law in Vancouver. All this week we'll bring you more stories from my visit to Haida Gwaii.

[Music: Theme]

MG: We'll hear how the museum there is bringing home artefacts from around the world, and how that's reviving traditional practices like weaving. We'll talk about the return of the sea otters to Haida Gwaii. We'll go to the launch of a canoe. All of that coming up this week on The Current coming up after a regional update, we'll talk about the value of being idle.

[Music: Fades up]

The benefits of being idle

Guests: Kate Neville

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. It's Monday. Maybe you are basking in the glow of the weekend, trying not to think too much about the workweek ahead. This is a conversation that is relevant to those thoughts. If you tell somebody that they are going to seed, I may not go over particularly well. The phrase can mean that they're becoming less productive, that they are deteriorating, perhaps even heading for death. For gardeners and for farmers, going to seed has a very different meaning, though. It's when the seed is getting ready to grow, meaning a renewal of life, not an end of life. Kate Neville is an associate professor in the Department of Political Science at the school of the environment at the University of Toronto, and she's the author of a book called Going to Seed: Essays on Idleness, Nature, and Sustainable Work. Kate, good morning.

KATE NEVILLE: Good morning, Matt. It's wonderful to be here.

MG: It's a real pleasure to talk to you. What does that phrase mean to you? Going to seed.

KATE NEVILLE: Oh, it is such a rich phrase that as your kind of brief note at the beginning here suggests has so many layers to it really, depending on the angle that you're looking at it. And to me, I think it's this real productive question of, what is it that we're looking at when we think about these seeds? What is it that we're thinking about the possibility of and the future of? Whose futures are kind of held in these seeds that are heading out? And this is a time, you know, here in the north, in Whitehorse, where we're seeing a lot of these plants going to seed kind of pollen in the air and on the water, these seeds kind of making their way into the world for their own futures. And so, out of our own control.

MG: The book has that subtitle which is: Essays on Idleness, Nature, and Sustainable Work. And I mean, a bit like the phrase 'going to seed,' idleness, if you describe somebody being idle, that can be seen as a slight, not as something that perhaps people want to strive toward. How do you define what idleness is?

KATE NEVILLE: It's a slippery term to me. And I should say that the book started really with idleness, and it didn't start with seeds. That kind of question of seeds came later, when I was speaking to a gardener friend about these ideas and had kind of thought about going to seed, and in that more colloquial way that it's kind of the end, the deterioration. And she was aghast and said, no, no, it's that productive time. Nothing about the garden is idle in these moments. But really, that question of idleness came out of a lot of different sources of reading and thinking. And in particular, the writer mark Slouka has this essay from 2004 that was published in Harper's Magazine, that really was about the kind of trap of constant busyness and how in order to be good political citizens, good social members of a community, to have undirected time and space, to think about how we want the world to be and to imagine other futures. And it sort of put in contrast with the kind of busyness, the work that we're always tied up with. And so, I think idleness has been percolating for me as this kind of concept that holds incredible political power even as it's so denigrated, even as we have this kind of move towards the need for constant productivity. And so, I think I've been really troubled with it for a long time.

MG: Undirected time.

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah, yeah. This kind of idea that there's not always an end goal in sight, there's not always a kind of structure under which we're headed towards the goals that we know we have. A time where creative possibilities are maybe more open. And so, many people don't have this in their lives. Not very much of it, anyway. Sort of are bound by the necessities of life, to the demands of others. And so, I think there's kind of a real question of freedom and autonomy that comes into that, where it's not always something put upon us in order to make ends meet or live up to expectations, but to sort of imagine something different.

MG: So, I read this book in the spring, and then sat with it and ended up taking a little bit of time off in the summer, and it was time that was, and I like to talk about, you know, going fallow, where you don't really have goals or you don't have a specific thing that you want to do, and that's hard to do. But I find it really rewarding sometimes. And I was thinking a lot about the book as I was doing that, which is kind of doing, you know, a whole lot of nothing. But thinking about that idea of idleness, not as something that is in opposition to work, but as something that we should strive toward. How were you idle this summer? What has your summer been like? And I ask you that in part because, I mean, you're in Whitehorse and the location has something to do with your attempt to be idle.

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah, it's a lucky thing in so many ways, this split life that I both spend time in the North, I actually live on the unceded territory of the Taku River Tlingit first Nation in a small town in northern B.C., just on the southern side of the Yukon border in Atlin. And I lived there before I got a job in Toronto at the University of Toronto. And so, for just under ten years, I've kind of split this life between the North and the South, between this kind of more rural, kind of off-grid cabin life, small town life with a lot of kind of self-reliance of the community and community reliance in particular. And then downtown Toronto, which, Matt, you know so well, the sort of buzz of urban life and the sort of densely populated Ontario urban landscape. And so, really thinking about what the contrast between these periods of time both requires and enables and the different kinds of work that really becomes apparent in these different places. And so, part of life for me in Atlin in an off grid cabin is thinking about water, thinking about heat from a woodstove. Thinking really about sort of, what does it take to sustain a life that is more connected to the non-human world? And then what does that mean in Toronto? And what does it mean to try to do both? To stay connected to an urban kind of landscape while being in a place where those rhythms, those time frames don't really match up that tidily? So, I think for me, there's a lot of that kind of reflection on the tensions and the contradictions between those two.

MG: What have you learned about stillness and being idle from the natural world?

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah, and I really appreciate that question, because I think so many of the books that I've read about leisure and idleness and work and the future of work are very, very human focused and necessarily so. It's sort of this question about social inequalities. Who has the ability to work, who has the opportunity to do work that is meaningful? And I've learned a lot from the kind of thinking about these social dynamics. But what happens when we look alongside our human endeavours to the work of the world that sustains us? And so, I really wanted to think about idleness and pausing of our human work as not just going inward, but also a chance to look outward at what we often ignore, what often goes unseen in our daily life. And maybe especially when we're embedded in very human structures.

MG: How have you seen that in your own life? The book starts with you in the cabin and with the inhabitants that might be there that you're trying to pretend aren't there, whatever is burrowing away.

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah. So, as you say, the book starts with a story about mice moving in to a kind of structure that's attached to the cabin that I live in, in spite of constant efforts to usher them outwards. The kind of constant return of these mice through the cracks and gaps in the logs and sort of thinking, you know, my work against the work of the mice, and they're working hard to build their home to have their young to be warm and in winter. And I'm working very hard to try to clear them out. And sort of that tension between the work that we do and the work that others do, that sometimes is at odds with each other. And I tell a story later to about this kind of battle that often happens with beavers that sort of block culverts or flooded farmland and roads. But the flipside, too, is I think that I'm humbled by the way that I am so dependent on the work of the world. I mean, the trees that we burn in our woodstove grew for so many years, you know, converting sunlight into what then produces warmth. And kind of this sense that that we're so intertwined with the work of other beings.

MG: Where do you think that the denigration of idleness comes from? You say that it's often positioned against work and that things like leisure and play, people will see some value in that. But idleness is, you know, of dubious value. Where does that come from, do you think?

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah. Matt, I'm not a historian, but I learned a lot from a historian in particular, Cara Daggett. She sort of traces Scottish Presbyterian ideas, embedding themselves into a kind of the theories of physics that emerged and sort of embedded their ways into how we understand the very nature of energy and sort of the religious tenets that came about to tell us what the value of work was, and the kind of dangers of idle hands that could be used for no end of trouble. But that's not the only tradition that I came across that has this kind of idea about the value of work. And I think that there's kind of a piece of it that is the importance of doing work to sustain ourselves, to be active citizens in our communities, to tend to the world around us. But there's also this sort of fear of not working that we won't be seen as valuable, and we won't be seen as important members of society. And I think that these things are often in tension. And idleness gets collapsed, maybe, a little bit. That sort of variety of ways that we can, not be productive in a certain sense ends up sort of narrowed when we talk about idleness. And I, one of the things I want to do and in these essays is sort of expand how we think about different forms of idleness at different moments, and that they're not necessarily opposites, that it's not just work versus idleness, but this incredible relationship between moments of different forms of work, and moments of different forms of idleness.

MG: I mean, in the face of that construct, you say that idleness can be a form of responsibility. You say that it's a crucial emancipatory project. What do you mean by that?

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah. And this goes back, in many ways, to Mark Slouka, thinking about sort of the need to pause. Constant distraction, constant busyness in order to collectively imagine a different kind of world. And he says that idleness is not just a psychological necessity, a requisite to the construction of a complete human being. It constitutes, as well a kind of political space, a space as necessary to the workings of an actual democracy as, say, a free press. And, you know, I'm speaking on a public radio here. It's sort of, it feels really powerful to think about freedom of press and democratic processes and the need to be able to have that undirected time we talked about and that that's sort of a way to imagine what flourishing could look like that isn't just what we've been assuming are handed down. And so, I do think that there's something sort of, you know, anarchy, anarchism is often really denigrated as a sort of chaotic negative force, but it's really about non-hierarchical elements of organization, something that's not just handed down by authorities on high.

MG: What do you mean? What does that actually look like, practically?

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah. And you know, I'm not sure I know. It's a really good question. You know, maybe really directly I see it in this town of Atlin where I live, where it's an unincorporated municipality, and things run through the First Nations government and through the British Columbia government. But so much happens through community organization, through volunteer organization, through people recognizing the needs of others and responding in these generous ways. And I think those kinds of moments of experimentation at these different scales might give us insights into what it could look like. I definitely don't have kind of a big answer to that, as much as sort of the sense that we need to experiment, we need to imagine really widely in these different contexts.

MG: Can you imagine a different form of work or rethinking what work is? And, you know, a way that work could be, I mean, more sustainable? And the catch phrase, and you kind of pick at this a little bit, this idea of a work life balance or what have you, is not the answer. But a way that work is not just, shouldn't you be doing something? And that if you're not doing something, you're seen as kind of burning time when you should be, you know, a more productive member of society. Can you rethink work in that way?

KATE NEVILLE: So, I think what I've been discovering through this writing is that we already do a lot of that in our language. We name a lot of things as work that are very different from one another. So, we talk about, you know, the work that is done in an administrative or bureaucratic kind of institution. And we talk about parenting as work, childcare work or caretaking work. We talk about creative work often, that sort of language that's very familiar. We talk about schoolwork, but studying is different from taking care of children is different from tending the ill is different from painting in so many different ways. And yet we sort of shorthand them all to work. And so, I think in some ways, rather than reimagining work, I think we need to reimagine how we value different forms of activity. And what does that look like in society? And there have been lots of different experiments and Matt, you know so much about this from your conversations with so many people, but things like universal basic income as one way of thinking about supporting people through necessities. Mutual aid is sort of something that came up often during the pandemic as sort of a return to these kind of caregiving to one another, to imagine different periods of time in people's lives where they're pulled very strongly in certain directions or have more space and time to kind of pause and step back.

MG: Do you think we learned much from the pandemic? Particularly when it comes to the idea of slowness. There was a moment where not everybody, certainly, but some people, many people were able to slow themselves down, maybe able to rethink what their relationship with work looked like. And then in the years that followed, a lot of that went back out the window. Did we learn much, do you think, from that time about, yeah, the value of slowness?

KATE NEVILLE: It's an important question. And I think that there's a maybe a very different set of answers from what various communities or individuals learned, versus whether the structures of society have changed to allow us to put that knowledge into practice. And I think that in lots of ways, the sort of knowledge that people had about the challenges and the value of slowing down and staying home in different ways hasn't really been translated into changes in these structures of institutions that we have that are constantly speeding up. So, I think that that's still something where there is a lot of kind of change that is needed. And maybe this is too, Matt, as you say, not everyone in the pandemic had those opportunities, right? Lots of people who were on the front lines, and especially those who were underpaid, who are under compensated, who have very little control over their own work lives. People, you know, doing that caregiving work, doing that sort of provision of services were not the ones who had the opportunity to stay home. They were bound up as much during the pandemic as before, or maybe even more so in those sort of really quick structures that they had to continue racing to meet.

MG: That's not even back then. I mean, one of the arguments against this idea of idleness that you should try and find time to be idle, is that, at its heart, that idea can be exploitative. That idle time is only possible for some people because of the labour of others. That it's a luxury and that luxury depends on somebody else being squeezed so that you can be idle. What do you make of that?

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah, Matt, I'm glad that you brought that up because this isn't new, right? These are longstanding strategies for those who benefit from the work of others to maintain those systems of power. And I think that sort of interrogating idleness, interrogating these ideas of morality associated with certain forms of work, allows us to step back and think about who's benefiting from these and what is that perpetuating. There's sort of stories from mythology, stories from history that reinforce these kinds of ideas of what constitutes the good life and for whom, that I think we really need to pull apart. And, you know, the Greek poet Hesiod, I think maybe is one of the ones who sort of talks about when you work, you'll be much better loved by the gods. And that was in the eighth century BCE. And sort of thinking, you know, who is it who is being loved in these particular ways? And why is this so important to reinforce?

MG: So, how can we go about thinking of idleness as something that is good for all of us? To make sure that your gain doesn't come at the expense of somebody else?

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah. I think maybe broadening the question to sort of within human relationships, but also beyond them is a big part of that, which is, you know, we see the consequences of our constant activity, our constant production that so often comes from extraction. And I think that's a key piece of why it's good for all of us to think about stepping back, is the consequences of an ever accelerating kind of economy, and ever accelerating production takes its toll on the systems of non-human life on which we depend that the whole planet requires. And so, we see that when there's wildfires, we see that when there's droughts, we see that when there's floods. These sort of incredibly hot record-breaking hot days that we're seeing around the world really reinforce why it's so important, why it's so good for all of us to think about stepping back. And particularly those who have the control over these systems, right? Who are in positions that benefit from the work of others and from these kind of systems of production.

MG: But how do you think of progress in the face of that? You said that the, you know, the book is not a self-care book, but it's also not an anti-technology book. You're not saying that we completely distance ourselves or disconnect from those systems that allow us to be able to go up to a cabin in the woods or to disappear off the grid for a while. So, how do you square that?

KATE NEVILLE: Yeah. So, Matt, I'm skeptical of the term progress. I really am, in the sense of, sort of, what are we progressing towards? And I think that's the big question that kind of the term progress doesn't itself answer. It's not, in itself, a thing. It's sort of, what is that end, what is that kind of possible future that allows for the freedom and the autonomy of more beings, more people, more nonhumans? And the botanist and writer Robin Wall Kimmerer has this beautiful essay in Emergence Magazine, where she talks about economies of abundance and these relationships of reciprocity. And I think maybe that's where I see kind of the promise of progress, of sort of thinking, what does it look like to recognize ourselves within this kind of thriving, ever changing, mutually sustaining world? And what role do we play in kind of bringing out that beauty and that kind of potential, even just in a moment balance? Like, what does it look like to contribute to that versus to move too quickly? You know, I read recently in an article about wildfires that, you know, the boreal forest depends on fires, right? These black spruce need fire to regenerate, but if they burn too often, they can't continue. They can't reproduce. And so, it's not sort of work or no work. Idleness or not idleness. You know, fire or not fire. It sort of, where is that balance that allows that regeneration, that allows that future. And I think that's sort of these questions of where does progress fit into that, and where do our technologies fit into that?

MG: Let me ask you two final things before I let you go. One is, do you feel like, is there really the opportunity to get people to think differently about this? And I ask this because we are in a world that's filled with, you know, life hacks. How to squeeze more into your day. You should listen to your podcast at two times the speed rather than one, so that you can listen to more podcasts rather than actually just listen to the thing at the speed that it was recorded at. Do you think that what you are saying in this book of essays is going to find an audience that is receptive, that is ready for something like that?

KATE NEVILLE: I think everyone is hungry for a way of doing things differently that feels, you know, more grounded, more connected. So, I think it's sort of adding to a conversation that's already loud and fast and vibrant and slow at the same time. I think there's so much happening in this space that I'm maybe just excited to be part of that conversation, as opposed to thinking I'm leading something brand new. You know, I'll say that this book was the product of this writing prize that was put together by the Sowell Family Collection in Literature Community in the Natural World with terrain.org and with Texas Tech University Press. And I think about this huge literary community that's already thinking about place and our relationships with it and with community and culture. And so, I really think that this is happening. This is a live, vibrant conversation.

MG: Just finally, people might have had a moment to catch their breath in the summer. And what you're saying, and that dichotomy between being idle and being productive and how people look at them differently, they're thinking, you know what? I wish there was a way for me to keep idleness in mind while I get back into the machine. What would you say to them?

KATE NEVILLE: That I think that's exactly right. You know, it's easier in lots of ways to think about idleness when we have vacation, when we have a holiday, a time away. But these ideas are maybe most essential when we're caught up in the flurry of life that is so quick, that is so urgent. And maybe I'll say, too, we often want to respond to urgency with more urgency, with more speed. And sometimes the kind of answer to a moment of crisis or a moment of urgency is to pause, to take that deep breath, to reflect on how you want to respond to it and be present in it. And so, I would say that it's sort of back into these kind of rhythms of the fall. And, you know, that's maybe the most urgent time to think about carving out space to imagine, why are we doing this? What are we doing this for? At what point can we really do this deliberately, which might look like a lot of work at certain moments, but it might not look like responding as though everything's a crisis, even when it is.

MG: You're able to do that when you're not at your cabin, but when you are in the belly of the beast in the centre of of downtown Toronto?

KATE NEVILLE: Oh, I think it's an aspiration and a pursuit rather than an end. I think it's something that I don't know that I'll ever achieve as much as strive for. And I'm thinking about that cycle, when is the pausing most necessary? But I'll try.

MG: Okay. Thank you very much.

KATE NEVILLE: Matt, thank you so much.

MG: Kate Neville is the author of Going to Seed: Essays on Idleness, Nature, and Sustainable Work. She's also an associate professor in the Department of Political Science and the school of the environment at the University of Toronto, and she was in our Whitehorse studio. That is The Current for this Monday, the 9th of September. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. If you missed our special coverage from Haida Gwaii earlier in the program, check it out on our website, cbc.ca/thecurrent. You'll be able to hear our documentary and the conversations with people there, read more about them and see some photos from that beautiful part of the country. It is a magical place, and hopefully we brought some of that magic to you through the radio. We'll hear more from my visit to Haida Gwaii tomorrow on The Current. Now back to Whitehorse, where Kate Neville was. We're going to leave you with a Yukon favourite. This is Hendrika, and a new single, You've Got Gold. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

[Music: 'You've Got Gold' by Hendrika]

Monday September 9, 2024 Full Transcript

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