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The Current Transcript for September 16, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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DEMAR DEROZAN: My career was at its height, making it to All Star Weekend and we-- I kind of felt like I was just hitting the wall. And, you know, it led me to in the middle of the night, tweet out a tweet.

MATT GALLOWAY: For all he's accomplished on the basketball court, DeMar DeRozan's legacy may ultimately come down to one social media post he made in the middle of the night. In a dark moment, the former star with the Toronto Raptors went public with his struggles with depression and kicking off an unlikely conversation about mental health that continues to this day. In just a moment, DeMar DeRozan on how basketball saved his life and why he sees vulnerability as a form of strength. Also this morning, the Chinese government announced this month that it's ending all foreign adoptions of children, even ones that are in progress. In an hour, the legacy of a complicated program and what the sudden change means for parents who are hoping to adopt from China. Plus:

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SPEAKER: People are getting upset. They're like, well, I'm having to tip everywhere now. Well, it really comes down to the logic of, you probably shouldn't have to tip at all. We really shouldn't have this system.

MG: From coffee shops to car repairs, there are few services now where you aren't asked to give a tip. Coming up, the Quebec crackdown on so-called excessive tipping. But we begin with a basketball star's search for a quiet mind. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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How DeMar DeRozan changed mental health in sports

Guests: DeMar DeRozan

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SPEAKER: With the ninth pick in the 2009 NBA draft, The Toronto Raptors select DeMar DeRozan from the University of Southern California.

MG: And with that, DeMar DeRozan started his journey into Canadian sports history. Drafted to the Toronto Raptors, he had been dreaming of an NBA career since he was a kid growing up in his L.A. neighbourhood of Compton. He spent hours poring over VHS tapes of the greats-- Michael Jordan and Dr. J-- to learn their secrets. As a Raptor, DeMar DeRozan contributions on the basketball court were legendary, but he also sparked a conversation on the sidelines when he started talking about his own struggles with mental health. DeMar DeRozan has written about his journey in a new memoir called Above the Noise, and he is with me in studio. DeMar DeRozan, good morning.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Congratulations on this book.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me as well.

MG: You go back to 2009, what was going through your mind when you realized you've been drafted by the Raptors?

DEMAR DEROZAN: Excitement. A dream come true. I just remember feeling, you know, like it was so surreal, you know? Especially at that time. This was the place I definitely wanted to be. So, to hear my name get drafted, you know, having my parents there, seeing their reaction, walking up there and putting a hat on felt like a dream come true. Well, it was a dream come true.

MG: It comes after a lot of hard work. In a neighbourhood that you grew up in where a lot of your friends went down different paths. What do you remember about growing up in Compton?

DEMAR DEROZAN: A constant obstacle on a daily basis that felt so normalized, you know. Growing up, no matter if it was a bad day or worse day, every day felt normal. When basketball allowed me to see more, have aspirations for more things and gave me an opportunity to see that it is more things that, you know, I can lean towards and have dreams of becoming. You know, so for me, it was just a constant challenge.

MG: You said that it was a neighbourhood-- in the book you say it's a neighbourhood where death and destruction was normalized.

DEMAR DEROZAN: For sure. It was definitely that. When you grew up, you really can't understand anything else but what you're growing up in. You know, you watch movies and you see people growing up in nice places, you feel like it's just a movie. Like, those places really didn't exist 20, 30 minutes from where you were living. So, being trapped in that type of emotional mental state, you know, it kind of, you know, you kind of look at everything like it's normal.

MG: What did basketball give you?

DEMAR DEROZAN: Basketball was the only thing I could comprehend, and basketball was the only thing that allowed me to embrace my imagination. Being able to recreate moments you see from your favourite players growing up. You know, I just always remember having a make believe, you know, court in the house doing fadeaway jump shots with my tongue out trying to, you know, be Jordan, trying to grow my-- a mini afro like Kobe when I was young. You know, it gave you a belief when you watch sports and when you play sports, to really see that imagination could come true.

MG: Tell me about watching those videotapes. I mean, this is before streaming. This is before you could dial up the highlights online and you get the old cassettes sitting there on the-- watching them on the television. Tell me about watching those.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah. You know, it was such a a beautiful thing when I look back on it, because I just remember how grainy the TV was. You know, you couldn't even see the player's face. Like, but, you know, watching so many games in black and white, you know, I remember times where they didn't even show the score on the TV. You just watching them go up and down the court. And I used to just watch basketball so much because one, it gave me a moment with my dad, you know. And two, unknowingly, it gave me a deeper appreciation and love for the game of basketball.

MG: Tell me about the relationship that you had with your dad.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Man, my dad was, you know, my dad was my everything. You know, he was everything I wanted to strive to be. I wanted his acceptance, I wanted to make him proud. He pushed me. He taught me a lot of things. He showed me tough love. But it all makes sense, you know, as I got older, you know, to be able to have a supportive father. He was there for every moment in my life. That meant a lot, you know, especially now how I am with my kids.

MG: You say that you knew he loved you, but he was also the only person that you were scared of.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yes, he was the only person I was terrified of. I remember...

MG: Terrified.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah, I remember his-- if I woke up late and I hear him walking up the stairs or if he yelled my name, it was like a panic, and me jumping out the bed. Because like I said, you know, he was tough on me, but he was tough on me for all the right reasons. But being young, you know, I didn't look at it that way. I always looked at it like, man, what did I do? What I do now? What I got to do? But he would just teach me a lot of life lessons that I carry to this day.

MG: He really believed that you were going to make it, too. [DEMAR: Yeah.] He kind of knew in his mind that you were going to make it.

DEMAR DEROZAN: I think he had the utmost belief in me more than anything, anybody before I even knew I was even good at basketball, you know? And I don't even think it was more so for basketball, I think, as just a person. You know, he seen something in me that I could have, and he didn't let me shortchange it or make excuses or complain about much of anything. You know, he pushed me because he knew I was going to be something.

MG: You have a tattoo that's on your, it's on your right forearm, is that right? [DEMAR: Mhmm.] And it says, Why would they care about you? [DEMAR: Yeah.] This is a tattoo that you see at every time you're taking a shot.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah. Yeah, It was one of those things growing up, it was something that I always heard so often. Like, why would they care about you? You know, they don't love you. They don't make sure you get up in the morning. They don't push you. They don't give their best effort to make you be the best you could be.

MG: This is what your dad was telling you.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah. And that was one thing that always was instilled in my mind. Like, you can't expect everybody to care. You got to lean towards the ones-- your family, the ones that really care for you, that want the best for you, because everybody is not going to care. Everybody looks at you like you don't matter. You know, you got to do what you need to do for who you need to do it for family wise and for yourself. So, that was one thing that definitely pushed me.

MG: You used to go on these trips with him back to-- he's from Vidalia, Louisiana.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yep, Yep.

MG: And you would go on these road trips to a different, like a completely different world. You'd see the stars, you'd see all sorts of... but you would stop sometimes, and you'd look up at the sky. And he would show you the moon.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah.

MG: What was it about the moon?

DEMAR DEROZAN: It meant so many things because it symbolized that there was more to the world than just you. You know, growing up in Compton, a lot of times you feel like you're so alone. Whatever you were going through, it's on you. And I just remember the first time we used to drive from, you know, Compton, California, all the way to Louisiana. It was like a two-day, three-day road trip. But I just always remember when we got outside of the city, you could see the stars and the moon clear. That was new because so much smog in the city everyday and it kind of just like, it blew my mind because it made me realize there's so much more to the world than what I thought I was living in. I felt like I was living in such a bubble. Whenever things was going extremely bad and you know, the moon in the sky kind of just symbolized there was so much more to the world than with my problems I may be having in that moment.

MG: So, we played that little bit at the beginning of you getting drafted. And this is part of it. I mean, realizing there's a much bigger world. You come to Canada for the first time. You land in Toronto. What was your impression of this country?

DEMAR DEROZAN: Oh man, it was very overwhelming in a lot of ways. You know, I just remember being confused, trying to get through the airport. I remember seeing the freeway signs, half of it in French, half of it in English.

MG: You asked yourself, What have I got myself into?

DEMAR DEROZAN: It was so much because I was by myself. I'm 19 years old. I'm a kid. Never, you know, going through customs, filling out the customs card, trying to figure out which side was English or French. Making sure I'm doing the right thing. But it was something that was very needed and essential for my growth as a man and as a professional, because it kind of grounded me. It helped me kind of like start over in a sense, and kind of just take one step at a time. Once I got here it was everything that I needed.

MG: Why do you think you connected with this city?

DEMAR DEROZAN: I felt the connection before I even drafted with the city. I think that's why I was so happy, and I was so eager to even get drafted by Toronto because even beforehand, you know, I just felt the-- I felt the need, like, they wanted me here. And when I got drafted, the way they embraced me made it easy for me to embrace it back. And I grew here. You know, like I said, it was my first time leaving home. So, to come to Canada, come to Toronto for the first time, the city still was developing so much. Even now, when I come here now, I remember when there wasn't buildings here, I remember, you know, just the skyline wasn't how it is now. So, for me, I kind of grew with the city. You know, I grew with the sport evolution of the city as well. So, being a part of that, I think it was a much more deeper emotional connection.

MG: It's just interesting because there were, I mean, you would well know a lot of players come here and the first thing that they want to do is get out. People don't want to stay here. They don't want to be here. It's a different country completely. You can't get ESPN; the things people are used to. And you-- all you wanted to do was be here.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah. And I think, I usually hear that so much from players that came. I remember a lot of guys used to come on the team and all they did was complain. And to me, I used to be confused. Like, what should you to complain about? Granted, this was the only place I knew at the time. So, to me, I was just happy to be here. But that more so made me want to push and change the narrative of wanting to play here and be here, you know? And I took that to heart.

MG: You created something here in Toronto and you created it alongside a lot of players. But Kyle Lowry was somebody who you worked so well with. When he came here, what was your first impression of him?

DEMAR DEROZAN: I couldn't stand him when he first came here.

MG: I don't know if I can use the language that you use in the book, but the way that you describe him is not at all flattering.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't stand him at all, you know? And it's so crazy. Even before I walked in here, I was on FaceTime with him for about 15, 20 minutes before we walked in here. But when he first came to the team, we were so... so much of opposites in personalities that I just didn't see him fitting well. But after time went on my first season here, I seen how he worked. I seen how he cared about his craft. I see how he also stayed to his self. But I also seen how he laid it all out there on the line when it was time to go play and that was something that was so appealing to me. It kind of brought us even closer in a moment to where I never would have realized that because his work ethic and his care he had for the game ran so deep. And I just wanted to be a part of that. And ever since then, you know, I did my best, right?

MG: What did you learn from him as a man?

DEMAR DEROZAN: One, how to be an ultimate professional. You know, one thing about Kyle, he used to come in two or three hours before practice, do his whole workout, shower. And a lot of times he would be laying in the locker room before practice even started. And practice, leave it all out there. Once practice was over, he would go about his day, go tend to his family. He was so on point with everything. And I took a lot of that from him just being on point when it came to putting your work in.

MG: I want to jump ahead to 2018 NBA All-Star Game. It's in Los Angeles. How would you describe your state of mind around that time?

DEMAR DEROZAN: It was so much all over the place, you know, because at that time, my career was at its height. [MG: Yeah.] We was winning. So much was going on on the court in a positive way, in an overwhelming way, as well. And there was a lot coming with that off the court as well. And I think making it to All-Star Weekend, we-- I kind of felt like I was just hitting the wall because I didn't care about nothing else other than just wanting to get home and hang with my kids.

MG: You wanted to be normal.

DEMAR DEROZAN: That's all I wanted. I just wanted to walk in here and be completely normal, at least for a day with my kids, you know. And to get home and it'd be the complete opposite, even worse of how I was feeling the week prior. You know, it kind of just kind of made me hit a wall. You know, it led me to in the middle of night, tweeting out a tweet.

MG: The tweet got a lot of attention. And the tweet came from something that you read and saw from Jim Carrey, the comedian. What did you learn from Jim Carrey?

DEMAR DEROZAN: Man, Jim Carrey and Robin Williams was two guys that I listened to them speak. I listened to him talk about a lot of things from a mental standpoint, from a life standpoint. And these are guys that we grew up idolizing as comedians that made everybody laugh. But you also see the pain that they carry with that.

MG: They were as successful as you could possibly be in their fields.

DEMAR DEROZAN: You know, and they always used to make me wonder why? Why are they saying these things? These are one of the funniest guys I've ever watched on TV. But to see Jim Carrey put a lot of stuff in perspective, and humanize, and show so much empathy toward humans, it was something that stuck with me. And I remember him even expressing the fact of he wished everybody was rich so everybody could see money isn't everything. And that kind of hit home because, you know, people always say, Oh, you got money, you don't have nothing to worry about. But it don't work that way.

MG: So, you put out this tweet. The tweet is, 'This depression get the best of me.' Why did-- you could have written it, but not sent it. You could have put it in the draft page. Why did you push 'tweet?'

DEMAR DEROZAN: In that moment, I was so isolated. I was in my own solitude and my emotions was at its all-time high. And, you know, I didn't have nobody to talk to. And it was something I wrote. It literally, when I wrote it, I put my phone down.

MG: What did you think was going to happen?

DEMAR DEROZAN: I didn't think anything. You know?

MG: You must have thought something would happen?

DEMAR DEROZAN: Literally, I didn't think anything, because I wouldn't have woke up in a panic and a shock that I did wondering why I had so many missed calls or text messages. I really didn't know. I just, I sent it, you know, I went to sleep, woke up, you know, ready for the next day. And so, I seen, you know, the concern. People asking me in detail, what did I mean by that tweet? And it kind of took me back to that moment like, Oh man, I tweeted this when I was feeling this way, even though I woke up and I wasn't feeling like the way I felt middle of the morning. Things came with that tweet.

MG: Were you surprised that the things came with that tweet? I mean, the response to it. I remember seeing it because you put it out at 3:00 in the morning. [DEMAR: Yeah.] I remember seeing it and people were like, This is what he's saying. This is him saying that-- they wanted to make sure that it was you. People wanted to make sure you're okay, but they also knew that this would lead to a conversation. Did you know that that was going to happen?

DEMAR DEROZAN: No, I didn't know it would lead into all this, to this present day. You know, I didn't know. But it was something that was obviously needed, not just for myself, but for, you know, the world, in a sense. You know, to show that we go through things as athletes. You know, and I think after I took a second that following day, it just opened me up and made me realize like, man, yeah, this is how I feel, this is what I'm going through. And it just, it opened a conversation from there.

MG: Let me play something for you. This is Fred VanVleet, former Raptors teammate, talking about what this tweet accomplished. Have a listen.

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FRED VANVLEET: He changed the billion-dollar business. He changed it, you know, pretty much singlehandedly speaking out. And then obviously a lot of guys felt more comfortable and that's what it's about. So, for him to do that, it was huge. And we won't know the impact. You'll never know the impact. But we just know there's a great impact that he had on the league and on the guys and on players, coaches, staff, whoever. That this is DeMar DeRozan and he goes through shit like everybody else.

MG: In the book you-- I mean, and this is true. You say that men, especially Black men, don't want to talk about this and aren't encouraged to talk about this. In fact, the opposite is encouraged. You bottle it up, you don't say that depression is around, you don't say that you're not perfect, especially if you're successful and you're making money. Why do you think people are afraid of that? Why are people afraid of vulnerability?

DEMAR DEROZAN: We live in such an opinion-based world and a lot of times people don't want to share things because of getting poked at, made fun of, looking down upon, feeling looked at as being weak. There's not enough empathy being shown that allows people to be free to speak out on a lot of things that they are going through because they don't want to feel shameful. They don't want to feel worse; you know? And I think when you see someone in a higher position normalize, you know, pain that they may go through, it's easier to deal with. Because if I was worried about what everybody else may think or may say, I would have never said anything. You know, I wouldn't have continued to say anything. I wouldn't continue to put my life, you know, out there, even to this day with me still going through so much and still trying to figure out in a process. But it comes with trying to normalize those things so we can be able to, you know, talk out more because I know I find inspiration in other people's story and figure out ways how I could be better and actually help the next person.

MG: What have you heard? I mean, Freddie says that you changed a billion-dollar game, but you know that people look up to you and you'd hear from fans. So, what have you heard that lets you know that you did the right thing?

DEMAR DEROZAN: I hear so many... It's so baffling to me because whether if it's players or it's coaches, you know, I just start with a couple of coaches I'd had over the years that after practice we sit and have in-depth conversations about how, you know, me speaking out made them feel seen or gave them more confidence to speak up or, you know, they feel empowered in a sense of knowing that, look, I'm going through this as well and can express it to help a younger person out. And when I hear those things, it means a lot to me because it lets you know that it worked. It worked. And there's been so many people outside the court that come up to me and say how much I helped their kid or, you know, someone 20, 30 years older than me telling me I helped them with something mentally. That means the world to me.

MG: That's really powerful.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah. I never would have imagined that, you know, I'd be able to do something like that following the tweet that I made.

MG: I mean, you do great stuff on the basketball court, but you also wonder whether that legacy will almost equal that. Do you know what I mean? [DEMAR: Yeah.] Like, changing a conversation is a big thing.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yes. It's-- and I didn't realize how big it was until I did it. So, it put me in a place, even in this moment of still learning and still trying to grow and better myself and be a better father, a better person, a better, you know, leader, whatever it may be. And just seeing that it's a constant journey that we all got to kind of go through. And that's what led me to even do a book.

MG: I'm speaking with DeMar DeRozan, six-time NBA All Star, former Toronto Raptors. That book is called Above the Noise: My Story of Chasing Calm. We'll continue our conversation after the CBC News.

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MG: We'll talk about why he felt his trade out of Toronto was a betrayal. We'll talk about how he takes care of his mental health now and about that cameo that he made in a Kendrick Lamar music video that got a lot of people talking. DeMar DeRozan coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway, this is The Current on CBC Radio. Stay with us.

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MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. My guest today is NBA All-Star DeMar DeRozan. He has written a memoir about his life. It's called Above the Noise. Before the news, we were talking about his struggle with depression and his openness about it, a conversation that he started, especially among men, about mental health and vulnerability. That all began with a tweet in early 2018, when DeMar DeRozan was at the top of his game with the Toronto Raptors, and later that year came the trade.

MG: So, you wanted to be here? You wanted to be in Toronto playing for the Raptors for the rest of your career, or at least for as long as you possibly could. You get this phone call from Masai Ujiri. First, you're in a movie, and so you kind of, you know, text him back or whatever like that. Then you get this phone call. From your perspective, what do you remember about that call?

DEMAR DEROZAN: I just remember being in shock when it happened. You know, I just remember being there, being stuck when I heard the words.

MG: The words, We've traded you.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah. Like I just, once I heard the words, We traded you, it was like nothing else mattered. You know, I kind of was just kind of blanked out, you know? And it was a weird feeling that, you know, I never felt again to this day.

MG: In the book, you use the words betrayed and blindsided a bunch of times.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah.

MG: Why? Why-- blindsided I could see, but why betrayed?

DEMAR DEROZAN: You know, and that was just me speaking from my perspective because, you know, I just felt like, you know, I was going to be here. You know, I felt like I wasn't going to go nowhere. And, you know, that was my feelings at the time, you know. You know, and it's just crazy how, you know, the world worked because, you know, whenever I see Masai now, I give him a big hug. You know, my love and appreciation for, you know, everything he' done for me and my career.

MG: But are you still angry with the fact that that even went down?

DEMAR DEROZAN: No, I'm not mad at all, how it went down. You know, looking back on it, of course, in that moment, you know, you feel hurt. You feel all these things because, like I always say, you know, this is where I wanted to be. This is where I put everything into it, where I became, you know, I was 19 years old. You know, I grew up here wanting to be here. And like I said, I had, I carry so much weight of wanting to change the narrative of being here that, you know, it hit different when it happened. You know, sitting here with you today, do I feel angry? Man, not at all. Like, you know, I've past that, I've grown from it. And, you know, like I said, like I'm always thankful for the opportunity of my nine years here will forever be instrumental. Nothing will ever top, you know, my nine years here.

MG: I think it's interesting. I mean, one of the things you did was you looked at how to... you Googled, 'How to disappear?' And you go out into the desert and look back up at the moon. [DEMAR: Yeah.] That you used to look at with your dad.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah. You just, you know, it takes me right back to, you know, those elements of chasing the calm that you was kind of searching for in a sense. And, you know, that was one thing that kind of, you know, grounded me to get away from so much of the noise that was going on. Whether it was from social media, TV, friends, family, your phone. It kind of just put you in that place of just being calm all over again.

MG: What do you still get from playing basketball?

DEMAR DEROZAN: The same thing I got when I was a kid. [MG: Really?] Yeah.

MG: Even this far into your career?

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah. The excitement, the enjoyment, the competitive drive, the push. I still get the same feeling, you know? And that's a beautiful thing, because I just remember being a kid, just always going to the park and wanted to play all day long. You know, I'm still having that same feeling, you know? That's why I play, you know, back home all summer. I play as much as I can because, you know, I love the game.

MG: What do you do to take care of yourself? Aside from the physical, knowing what you know now, what do you do to take care of yourself?

DEMAR DEROZAN: You know, I just-- it's a consistent thing of finding ways to, you know, stay grounded. You know, it's tough. You know, it's not easy. You know, I tell people all the time, it's not easy. It's not supposed to be easy. You know, there's things I tried and, you know, I have expectations of it changing right then, right there. But sometimes it don't work that way. I think for me, it's just a consistent journey of me trying to figure out what works. You know, sometimes nature works for me. You know, I do that sometimes. If I can't be in nature, sometimes, you know, I take a moment to myself and try to indulge in something positive, something uplifting. You know, some days I may just take a nap and kind of just put my phone down, turn the TV and just kind of decompress from everything. So, there's multiple things that I just consistently try to do.

MG: It feels like you're stronger now, like, mentally, because of everything that you went through that way.

DEMAR DEROZAN: For sure. Definitely stronger. And, you know, a lot of even more ways of getting tested come with, you know, being stronger. You know that you got to battle with. And, you know, I think I'm at that place now where I'm still, you know, still battling with a lot of things. But I'm up for the challenge more so than before.

MG: What's it like being back in Toronto now, launching this book?

DEMAR DEROZAN: Man, it's amazing. You know, this is where it all started for me. Like I said, nothing will ever top my time here because it was my first, you know? It was my first, you know, everything. You know, ups, downs, smiles, frowns, cries. You know, it all started here. So, to be able to do something I never thought I'd be doing in my life, to come back here and do it is definitely cool.

MG: Now, people are watching you, in part because this summer you popped up in Kendrick Lamar's video. The song of the summer, Not Like Us. And suddenly you appear in this video, and this is like... I mean, this is the last nail in that beef that he had with Drake. Suddenly there's DeMar DeRozan. What were you doing in that?

DEMAR DEROZAN: Kendrick's been a friend, family to me for a long time, you know, for a long time. And it was one of those things, I don't think I necessarily approached it thinking it was a, you know, beef type of thing. I'm more so approached it like, you know, somebody that was close to me asked me to come and, you know, I supported him. You know.

MG: Are you worried you might get some boos when you come back next time?

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah, you've always got to expect that. But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I'm from Compton. I'm from Compton, California, and Kendrick's from Compton. And, you know, like I said, that was somebody that was close to me, that was instrumental to me. You know, probably caught a lot of people off guard because that's a relationship for years that, you know, I never, you know, publicised anything like that. But yeah, that was more so of, you know, that's my man. He asked me for a favour. And, you know, representing Compton.

MG: I was going to say, it feels like you representing home.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah, that's all-- what it was for me. You know, looking at it like, you know, I'm from Compton, California. He's from Compton, California. There's only a handful of us that, to make it out. And for him to be one of the great ones and doing what he's doing, you know, I had to represent for the city.

MG: No one's going to boo you here. People love you.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah...

MG: A lot of love for you in Toronto.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Appreciate it. Thank you.

MG: Thank you for being here. The book is really interesting, but your story and the work that you've done on yourself is fascinating and it has changed the conversation and changed the game.

DEMAR DEROZAN: Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.

MG: DeMar DeRozan is a six-time NBA All Star now playing for the Sacramento Kings, started his NBA career with close to a decade playing with the Toronto Raptors. And that book, which is about basketball and as you heard a whole lot more, is called Above the Noise: My Story of Chasing Calm. From DeMar DeRozan's pre-game playlist, this is Kendrick Lamar and Humble.

[Music: 'Humble' by Kendrick Lamar]

Is tipping culture out of control?

Guests: Bruce McAdams

MG: It's Kendrick Lamar and Humble. This is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. My name is Matt Galloway. Did you buy a coffee this morning? Maybe pick up a takeout sandwich this weekend? If so, did you tip?

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: I think the tipping culture is out of control. For real. Like, you see, now tipping options in places where it doesn't make any sense.

MG: You've probably been there. You buy that take out coffee or a sandwich and the options for a tip start at 18 per cent and go up to 30 per cent. People on the streets of Vancouver have thoughts on tipping and that guilty feeling if you don't choose that top tip amount.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: It's not five or ten anymore, which is I think, makes a [unclear] for a lot of people. A lot of people don't want to go out to eat outside anymore because on top of the rising costs, there is a 20 per cent tip, right? Which makes them guilty if they don't do that, right?

MG: Turns out that guilt is starting to change the way some people see tipping altogether.

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SPEAKER: What's pretty funny is that a lot of waiters, even if they do a bad job, they still expect you to tip them. And that's no. It challenges the idea of tipping. Recently I've tried to not tip unless it's a service. For example, if it's just a cup of coffee with no service. If it's a self-service, I don't think it's fair to tip.

MG: For this man who works for a food delivery service, though, those higher tips are crucial.

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SPEAKER: I depend on tips because 40 per cent comes from tips. And if this not comes, then it will be a very less amount that is very tough to survive.

MG: Last week, the Quebec government introduced a bill attempting to kerb so-called excessive tipping. If approved, this bill would mean that tips would be calculated on the total before tax in that province. Quebec's justice minister, Simon Jolin-Barrette, said there is growing pressure around tips and the people often end up paying more than they intend. Bruce McAdams is an associate professor in the School of Hospitality, Food and Tourism Management at the University of Guelph. He specializes in tipping culture. Bruce, good morning.

BRUCE MCADAMS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Do you have a tipping philosophy?

BRUCE MCADAMS: Yeah, I did. It went out the window about two years ago, though, with things changing. So, I think my philosophy was very similar to most people. We grew up with tipping as a social norm, you know. There were certain places we tipped. Restaurants, the barber shop, cabs, the pizza delivery, and we sort of knew what percent was expected, you know, perhaps 15 per cent. And what's happened since the pandemic is, as the people you were interviewing there have said, we've had all these things in that social norm change. So, we're being stretched out of our comfort zone. The social norm is being challenged by what we call tip creep, tip-flation, trust and transparency issues, all sorts of things. So, I'm-- like most people right now, I'm struggling with sort of a tipping strategy for me.

MG: Why have we seen-- and we'll get back to how much you're tipping in a moment-- but why have we seen such an increase in tipping? And an increase in the amount that people are being prompted to tip?

BRUCE MCADAMS: So, the first was this advent of digital payment machines. And pretty much 12, 15 years ago they popped up on the scene. And as the Quebec government is addressing, as you mentioned, we used to tip, and we were taught as a social norm, to tip before tax. I'm sure you remember that. You would look at the bill and you would calculate your percentage base before tax. And then overnight, and most people didn't even realize, we were tipping on tax. So, there was that bit of tip-flation. But post-pandemic restaurants in particular and the new businesses started asking for more because out of the pandemic we started tipping more. We, in Ontario, tips went up about five per cent after the first lockdown as people started coming out to restaurants and saying, Hey, I want to support workers. They've been on furlough. They've been shut down. I'm feeling good about being out. So, these little things have led to sort tip-flation. People saying, okay, let's move our prompts up a little bit, and the consumer is most likely going to be accepting. Whether that is the case or not is questionable.

MG: And so, that's why when they spin around the, you know, the little iPad on the swivel when you get your coffee, the tip prompt can be upwards of 30 per cent. That's tip-flation?

BRUCE MCADAMS: It is, yes. And also, too, you often in coffee shops now see them putting dollar amounts. So you'll have one dollar or two dollars or three dollars. So, I'm buying a four dollar coffee and I'm asked to tip three dollars. That's-- so, this is leading to, again, that change in the social norm where we used to be comfortable with something. And tip-flation has led to that and tip creep, which is probably the biggest difference. And that are these non-traditional businesses now asking for tips.

MG: Let's talk a little bit more about tip creep. What is that?

BRUCE MCADAMS: So, this is, you know, for me, the dry cleaner, the bookstore, the oil lube place that I've been asked to tip at that I never used to tip at before. And I'm like, what's happening? You know, what am I supposed to tip? And often these places-- I was at a cafe buying a pie of all things last week and I was asked to tip. And it's at the beginning of the transaction now. It's at the beginning. And this is throwing people off as well because you're asked to tip before you receive the service. And this does a couple of things. First of all, it breaks that social norm I was talking about and then it's pretty much ruined the idea that tipping is about good service and your experience. And it's just reiterating to consumers that tipping is not about rewarding service. It's about subsidising low wages.

MG: Well, tell me more about that, because, I mean, again, I'm speaking as somebody who grew up working in restaurants that paid for me to go to school and I would, you know, rely on tips. We would work hard for tips. The service you hope would be commensurate with something at the end. What is the purpose of tipping now? How has that evolved?

BRUCE MCADAMS: Well, we used to tip, and the research, you know, going back 15 years ago when I started looking at this, would show that, you know, we didn't really tip based on the level of service. Most of us tipped our average per cent if the service was fair or very good. But we believed we were tipping based on the quality of service. And so, that is out the window now with all these things, as I mentioned, tip creep, tip-flation, trust and transparency issues are big. And this gets into consumers wondering now in this digital world, where is this money going? I'm tipping before the service. It's going off into a cloud somewhere. Is the business getting any part of this money? What staff are getting what? So, all these things, you know, have changed since you and I were working in restaurants.

MG: But it's also what service you are tipping for. I mean, I'm not saying that the person who gave you your pie didn't give you great service in handing the pie to you or the person who changed the oil in your car. But you can imagine there are people saying that's the job. Your job is to change my oil and I'm paying you this fee to change the oil. Why am I giving you a tip on top of that? Is that, as you hinted at just briefly, because of lower wages that people are being paid now?

BRUCE MCADAMS: It is. And it's a result of a labour market that is really not conducive to attracting and retaining people in service jobs. So, if we ask ourselves, as I think you're asking me, why do we have tip creep, it's because businesses need to keep people and attract people to their work. And so, if I'm that oil lube person or the, you know, the coffee shop person, now I can say, hey, you're only going to be making minimum wage plus a dollar or two, but you're going to be making, you know, five to ten dollars a shift or 20 dollars a shift in tips because we're now allowing customers to tip. So, this is about retail players trying to be competitive in the labour market with things like servers and restaurants. And so, we're seeing businesses, as we've mentioned, that are non-traditional, moving towards this model. But it has, there's lots of risk in that for operators. And I think that's one of the problems from the business side is people are just saying, hey, I'll look into tips and they're not really looking at the legalities of the CRA and what's called direct tips, and they don't have an understanding of really what they're getting themselves into.

MG: There are restaurants in this country that are eliminating tipping altogether. How has that worked out, as you understand it?

BRUCE MCADAMS: So, this is my major area of study. One of my-- and for the most part, it hasn't worked. It has worked in some cases. In Toronto where you are, there's an amazing restaurant, Richmond Station. I had spent a morning with the owners in the spring and they've done very well by it. They're in the minority. It's very challenging when you're in an established market to say, Hey, I'm going to get away, move away from tipping, but I'm going to have to increase my prices. So, if there's a burger place beside me, they're charging 15, I'm eliminating tipping, I'm charging 20, and it sounds like, okay, you should be able to explain to the consumer that, yeah, but I'm paying benefits and they're getting a living wage and you don't have to tip. But it's not registered as a normal practice yet with consumers. So, it has been very challenging for the consumer to understand.

MG: Have a listen to this. Jamie Mah is a bartender in Vancouver, writes about food and hosts a podcast about the food and hospitality industry. Take a listen to what he had to say about tipping.

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JAMIE MAH: People are getting upset. They're like, Well, I'm having to tip everywhere now. Well, it really comes down to the logic of, you probably shouldn't have to tip at all. We really shouldn't have this system. Restaurants probably should have it where they pay their employees a good wage for what their work is. And people need to respect the idea that if we wanted to abolish tipping and abolish the system, and if you're getting frustrated that I'm being asked to tip everywhere now, you really have to ask yourself, why are we tipping at all? Like, if you have a plumber come to your house, you're not tipping them because they're charging you what their actually services for.

MG: So, you said that this hasn't worked thus far. Is there a way that this could work where we get rid of tipping and perhaps hospitality workers come out better on the other end?

BRUCE MCADAMS: That's the hard question. And from an ideal point of view, I believe in what Jamie, I think your gentleman was saying. I agree that it would be a much better place and things would be a lot simpler and cleaner for both operators and consumers if we did get rid of tipping. But once you've started something like this, it's very hard to move away. And the only way I can see it happening is through government regulation. And we're, you know, I think we'll talk about what Quebec has just done. We're starting to see a little bit of that now. But, you know, consumer backlash is being felt. I've spoken to three or four operators that on their own have moved their tipping percents, their prompts on their machines back down. So, they had moved them up. And now because of consumer backlash, they're moving them down. So, the marketplace isn't going to change tipping. I think it's going to have to be regulation.

MG: What do you make? We're just about out of time, but what do you make of what's happening in Quebec? This new bill that targets what's called excessive tipping and requires businesses, in particular, to calculate tips on the pre-tax amount? Is that the right step?

BRUCE MCADAMS: I think so. It's going back, as we mentioned earlier, to the way we used to do things. And then it was taken away from us overnight without us really knowing. So, I think it's a fair move. It will provide a little bit of relief for consumers. The only thing is it's-- and it's super easy for the government. It's going to, they don't have to do anything. Policing will be easy. It'll be the payment machine companies that will change their programming. So, it's really an easy step, an easy win for them. But it doesn't get to the root problem of this tip fatigue, this tip angst and even anger people are feeling. And that is really tip creep. Tip creep is the big thing, Matt, that this bill does not address at all.

MG: How much do you tip on average?

BRUCE MCADAMS: I was known as the non tipping guy.

MG: The non tipping guy?

BRUCE MCADAMS: Or the no tipping guy, sorry. Not non-tipping because I did tip, but because I wasn't supporting. So, I actually tip 20 to 30 per cent. I was also in the industry. But if I was-- I tell my kids tip 15 per cent.

MG: Fifteen per cent is the number for you.

BRUCE MCADAMS: I think so. I think that is the number. Yeah.

MG: Bruce, thank you very much.

BRUCE MCADAMS: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Bruce McAdams is an associate professor in the School of Hospitality, Food and Tourism Management at the University of Guelph. Do you suffer from tip fatigue, tip anger? Are you done with being asked to tip in services where perhaps you weren't being asked before? If you don't mind me asking, how much do you tip? Maybe you rely on tips, maybe you work. You're like many, many Canadians who work in the service industry and you rely on those tips because of a low hourly wage. What should we do about the ideas of tip fatigue and tip creep? You can email us: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE LEMAY: My wife and I, we're still in shock. We are absorbing the news. We are very sad. It's probably the end of our journey for finding a family, and we're really wondering if this is the end for that dream we had.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Pierre Lemay and his wife were dreaming of bringing a child into their family, a child adopted from China. Now, the Chinese government is putting a stop to international adoptions. We'll talk about what this means for families like Pierre, but also for adoptees. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current. Stick around.

[Music: Fades up]

China suddenly ends international adoptions

Guests: Pierre Lemay, Shelley Rottenberg, Nikki Rottenberg

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Earlier this month, dozens of Canadians who were in the process of adopting children from China got some devastating news. The Chinese government announced that after 32 years, it would no longer allow international adoptions. Officials in Beijing said that all adoptions are being halted regardless of what stage they are at. And from now on, only people who are blood or step relatives will be allowed to adopt Chinese children. China's foreign minister said the move is in line with international trends. The announcement comes as that country faces fears about a shrinking population. Pierre Lemay and his wife were in the late stages of adopting a young boy from China when they got this news. Pierre is in Quebec City. Pierre, good morning.

PIERRE LEMAY: Bonjour, Mr. Galloway Thank you. Thank you for giving us this opportunity.

MG: Thanks for being here. How are you and your wife processing this announcement?

PIERRE LEMAY: We are still absorbing the news. It's very sad for us since the last two weeks. But we're still... I would say we're still devastated.

MG: Devastated?

PIERRE LEMAY: Yeah.

MG: How did you find out?

PIERRE LEMAY: We found out two Fridays ago on September 6th. First, early in the morning through an article of La Presse, which was recalled with some news from the U.S. But the news was quickly confirmed one or two hours later by our adoption agency and the Quebec government.

MG: Do you mind telling us why you decided you wanted to adopt a child from China? What was it that led you to that?

PIERRE LEMAY: Yeah. My and my wife and I got married in 2015. We met a few, about one year before. But given our age, adoption seems like the most realistic option for us for starting a family. We are in the late 40s. So, we took States for the first time. We tried with Philippines, but it wasn't possible after that because exactly about our age. So we start, filled an application for a child with special needs in China. And in the spring of 2020, we received a child proposal. We were really happy. A boy who was then a little bit over four years old. He had special needs associated with a slight developmental delay and a heart defect. So, we accept the proposal and sign a matching letter with the Chinese government which is called a letter of seeking. Unfortunately, it was the beginning of the pandemic. And you know, the rest of this story with China closing its borders and putting an international adoptions on hold.

MG: How far along in the process were you when you got this news a couple of weeks ago?

PIERRE LEMAY: We are in the last step, is the notice of travelling. We're just a step before that, which is the letter of seeking. When the matching letter, if you know, is signed, the next step is that you have the authorization to go to reach for your child at that time. So, we're just that, the last step, I would say.

MG: What kind of a connection do you already feel with this little boy?

PIERRE LEMAY: We feel that we have a special connection with him. We receive a picture. We receive videos from him from time to time. So, we were seeing him growing and learning things and do stuff, you know, a little boy would do. So, that's quite difficult for us.

MG: And you've given him a Canadian name as well?

PIERRE LEMAY: Yeah, his name would be Mateo.

MG: That's heartbreaking to think... I mean, the process was so long and yet you're just within grasp of the final stages.

PIERRE LEMAY: Yeah, of course. It a really hard way to have a child. You know, it's, you don't... what's difficult, you don't have any control at all about anything. You are dependent of what the governments will say or do, whether it's our government or the Chinese government, that's maybe the same thing. We will have no control about that. And we were hoping it would work. But we have, it's always-- we always hoped everything's going to be all right. And sometimes, like that, like today, it's not working.

MG: What have you been told? You mentioned that you're working with an adoption agency. What have you been told by that agency about what happens next?

PIERRE LEMAY: What the agency's saying is the Quebec government is still saying that there may be a slight hope that in-- that's what we are asking the federal government that maybe the Chinese government could do exceptions for a family like us that are in those steps with identified children. And if they could do an exception and permit that we go there to reach out child. So, we're really asking the federal government to try to talk to the Chinese government if there's, this is a possibility that they could accept.

MG: We asked the federal government about this, and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada says, in its words, 'It's working closely with contacts in China to review the changes.' Are you hopeful that you'll be able to find that exemption?

PIERRE LEMAY: I would say that maybe there's a one, two per cent possibility that it will work, which, of course, we're still hoping. But we really, we're really not sure it's going to work. We really hope. And that's why we we hope that the government will do their best to talk with the Chinese government about that.

MG: This little boy that you have named Mateo is about eight years old. And as you mentioned, he has special needs. How concerned are you about his future and his chances of being adopted in China if you can't bring him here? One of the reasons why this international adoption process was in place over many decades was in part because of the belief that young children with special needs would perhaps have a better future outside of China.

PIERRE LEMAY: Yeah. Of course, we're worried about Mateo, given his age and condition. Like you said, we're not sure if there is going to be a family for him. We know that he would have one here in Quebec City, but that's something we really don't know. And that's really distressful for us, to know that maybe [unclear] he won't have a family given his condition.

MG: And do you mind me asking-- and again, this is tough-- but where does this leave you and your wife Natalie?

PIERRE LEMAY: We, given our age, we don't think there's going to be another possibility to found a family. So, it's a grief for us that we will have to start when we are, if we have the confirmation that there's no hope and there's no possibility to go to China.

MG: Pierre, I'm glad to talk to you. This is, these are hard conversations, and I wish you the very best of luck, but I appreciate you being willing to speak with us. Thank you very much.

PIERRE LEMAY: Merci. Thank you, Mr. Galloway.

MG: Pierre Lemay and his wife Natalie were in the process of adopting a child from China before that country announced it would no longer allow international adoptions. He's in Quebec City. We did contact the Chinese embassy for more information on how it would handle adoptions already in progress, but we did not receive a response from the embassy. The history of China's international adoption program stretches back more than 30 years, officially began in 1992, when the country was strictly enforcing its one child policy to kerb population growth. Families who contravene that policy were forced to abandon children or face fines. More than 160,000 children, mostly girls and children with disabilities, were sent to live with families all over the world. Shelley Rottenberg was one of those children. She was adopted in 1996 when she was eight months old. And both Shelley and her mother, Nikki Rottenberg, join us this morning. Good morning to you both.

SHELLEY ROTTENBERG: Good morning.

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: Good morning.

MG: Shelley, when you heard that China was ending this international adoption process, given the role that it has played in your life, what went through your mind?

SHELLEY ROTTENBERG: Well, at first I was just shocked because it's not something I really thought about or was expecting, and especially the way it was announced, where it's just all adoptions are stopping except for the couple of exceptions that they mentioned. So, I think I was at work when I found out the news. I just saw a social media post, but I didn't really have a lot of time to process. But you know, as the day went on, a few days actually went on, I think there was just a lot of mixed emotions. You know, it is very sad in some ways. If international adoption, there is less of a need for it and maybe there are less children compared to when I was adopted. I mean, if there's less of a need, then that's good. But I think it was just, you know, confusing and with the lack of information and just a lot of questions that came up because of the uncertainty of what that means for those who have already been adopted and those of us who are no longer children and have grown up. And, you know, I want to do some family birth searching, I'm not sure how that might affect it. So, some more unknowns on top of already existing unknowns that I have in my life.

MG: Nikki, what about for you? What was your reaction?

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: I was also very shocked. I think the adoption of all these little girls over the years, it's been a movement and we've been part of that movement. And that movement has come to an end. If there are fewer children or if China is allowing Chinese families to adopt, that's great, I think. When I listen --I think it's Pierre-- his story and his wife, I find that devastating because not only for them, but also for this little guy who's eight years old with special needs who would have a wonderful family. So, I think the late stage process, I hope that goes through for him somehow for both of them, the child and the couple.

MG: What do you remember about the first time you met Shelley?

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: My gosh. Matt, I was terrified to fly to China. Absolutely. I'm a chicken at heart. To me, China was a communist country. And what am I doing? But when I saw her, she was failure to thrive. She was two heads below the other six babies we brought back. Very floppy, cried all the time, threw up constantly. I was forever cleaning our clothes. I'd change her. She'd throw up again and she twirled her fingers in front of her eyes from morning till night. And a facilitator told me, Let's change the baby as if she was a product because there's something wrong with this baby. But I said no. And I found out those little twirling fingers were her only source of stimulation. But yeah, no. It was an amazing experience. And so much so that I went back a year later.

MG: What-- you mentioned your own concerns. What sort of reaction did you get from family and friends? You're a single Jewish woman who goes to China to adopt a baby. What do people make of that in 1996?

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: Well, I can tell you there were a lot of families, you know, that were supportive of their person adopting, but my family was not. They are very old school, religious, old school. They didn't want me to adopt, let alone adopt from China. And I had a couple of friends who also, you know, Why are you doing this? And I had to cut them out of my life because I would have lost courage to follow through.

MG: You cut them out of your life?

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: Till they brought the child home because they were so negative that it was starting to impact me. But I knew in my heart it was the right thing to do. I had to do it. My sister, who lived in Israel at the time, she was very supportive. And my doctor was incredibly supportive.

MG: How much information, Shelley, do you have about your birth family or how it was that you came to be adopted?

SHELLEY ROTTENBERG: Yeah, I have no information on my birth family, so I don't know who they are, you know, where they are. But in terms of the information before I was adopted, it did say in my paperwork that I was left at like a market, like some doorstep of a market. And then I was brought to a police station and then I was brought to an orphanage. I'm not sure if that's all true, but that's really all I know. So, my birth date was, you know, estimated, I guess, by the orphanage. I had a Chinese name that was given to me by the orphanage. And then, yeah, that's really it. So, in terms of searching, if I were to try to find family or just even more information, I think it's very hard because I have so little to go off of.

MG: And then you go through this enormous change, I mean, cultural change. You grow up in Dundas, Ontario, which is just outside of Toronto near Hamilton. It's a pretty small community at that time, predominantly probably a white community. Did you see a lot of other Asian kids when you were growing up?

SHELLEY ROTTENBERG: Not many. I think in my grade at school there was maybe one other Asian. And yeah, so it was a lot of white people and I didn't have a strong connection to like an Asian community, necessarily. And when I went to university, that was the first time that I was exposed to more like, ethnic racial diversity. I went to McMaster University, but then it was kind of hard because I didn't really feel like I could relate to the people, even though they were very welcoming. It was definitely more of an internal thing of I've had a very different upbringing and there's just these pieces that we don't have in common. So, it was hard for me to connect, even though I thought, oh now's my time. I can join, you know, maybe some Asian interest clubs and, you know, catch up. But I didn't end up doing that.

MG: When you were growing up, did you have much exposure to Chinese culture? I mean, were there things --and we'll ask Nikki this, as well, ask your mom this-- but I mean, were there things that were done to try to give you, even without knowing a lot of other Asian kids, but try to give you some exposure to the culture that you came from?

SHELLEY ROTTENBERG: Yeah, my mom definitely tried and we were connected to other families who had adopted from China. So, I think in some ways I had a lot of exposure to other adoptees who were from China, but not as much like, you know, Chinese people like consistently in my life. But my mom did bring me to like Chinese New Year events in Toronto. And we did kind of celebrate, you know, sometimes like Lunar New Year with red envelopes and, you know, going maybe to Chinese restaurants. So, kind of in the best way she could. She tried her best, but she's not in the Asian community herself. So someone who's outside of it, you know, that's also very difficult to do.

MG: Nikki, how did you navigate that? I mean, part of it is about your own culture. Part of it is about Shelley's culture. How did you try to figure out a way through that to expose her to as much as possible?

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: Well, I knew for her self-esteem later on, it was very important for her to embrace her Chinese roots and Chinese culture. So, I tried everything, even taking her to a Chinese church in Hamilton. And that was a very strange thing for me because I was the only white person, very tall amongst all these Asian people, which actually made me realize that's probably how she feels in our, in Dundas and in other places. I took her to Bathurst. I'm from Quebec, but I tried to find out in Toronto, you know, where all the Chinese were. Pacific Mall. I took her to all the things that were Chinese in the area that I could because I wanted her to get the feel of being Chinese. Again as Shelley said, I wasn't in the culture, so it was a little bit difficult for me.

MG: Why was that important to you? I mean, part of this is about the legacy of this program. People have talked about, you know, young children like Shelley getting a different chance at life and a very different life through the program. But one of the concerns that's been raised over the course of the adoption program is that there can be a cultural disconnection, if I can put it that way. So, why was that important for you to do what you could to try to expose her to as many different cultures as possible?

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: Well, first of all, I'm a social worker and I know her self-esteem would be linked very much in her Chinese background. That was very important. That's who she is, that's part of who she is. And so, that was the primary reason I wanted her to know everything, you know, about her culture. But I was learning. I had to find out more about China. Nobody told me. I just went to adopt this child from a country I knew very little about. So, it was a learning curve for me, as well as wanting to immerse her in the culture.

MG: Shelley, you mentioned when you got to university things perhaps were a bit different. And you've said that for the longest time you struggled to understand where you actually belonged. How did that change at university?

SHELLEY ROTTENBERG: Yeah, at university, I think still very much that was the time of me, you know, trying to find myself. I guess in first year I didn't end up joining any Asian clubs. I actually joined a Jewish sorority because I thought, Well, I can get in touch with those roots, you know, through my mom. That's the culture kind of that exists and, you know, from her family. [MG: Yeah.] So, I-- and like, I'd made great friends that I'm still close with today and, you know, I... but still, I didn't really feel like I belonged there because I didn't have, again, some of the same upbringing and the ways that they were raised, You know, they had certain experiences that I was like, I haven't done that. I haven't had like a Bat Mitzvah or I haven't done like a Birthright trip or gone to a Jewish day school or I don't keep kosher or speak Hebrew. So, there's still a lot of the cultural element that I was like, Oh, I don't quite fit in here either. And again, like they were very welcoming and you know, I was in it for five years. So, again, from the friendships and just kind of that exposure to be able to learn more about it. But it was still not something that I felt like, okay, this is where I feel most comfortable with people who fully get me. So, it was definitely a learning journey throughout my university years as well. And then it wasn't really until I found as an adult online, the adoptee community where I found the most belongingness.

MG: Tell me about that and what that gave you, that adoptee community? What is that and what did it do?

SHELLEY ROTTENBERG: Yeah, it was really the pandemic kind of drived, you know, my involvement in it. We were-- hopped on Zoom calls and I saw, like many people on my screen that, no way that they were also Asian and adopted, you know, most of them international and interracial adoptions. It was very much like, oh, wow. Like, I'm seeing myself like, in all these people. And then the more we talked, I'd hear about their experiences and obviously we have different experiences. We're not a monolith. But still, there was so much that was like a common thread between all of us, things where we just understood each other that otherwise, to other people I have to explain myself or it's seen as curious or interesting or just very different. So, it's very nice to feel that like validation and then also that support and then being able to realize, okay, yeah, like, you know, for me personally, the fact that I was adopted, that does affect me and I think will affect me for the rest of my life. And now I am connected to a community again where people, we understand each other, we accept each other's support. And that's just led to so many great things in my life. I've gotten more involved in adoptee organizations that I help host meet ups and having it go from online to these in-person connections has been so meaningful for me.

MG: Nikki how much of that struggle did you see Shelley having at the time? And I mean, kids go off to university and you sort of know a little bit of their lives, but there's a lot that happens out of your purview as well. How much did you know about what she was going through?

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: Well, first, Shelley and I are very close, and we talk a lot. And she's always been very close to me and we've always talked and discussed and shared. And so, I was very well aware. Yeah.

MG: And as, what did you make of that? I mean, what could you do to help her?

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: I tried to be as supportive as I could. I tried to tell her to empower herself any way she could. I was very happy, you know, during the pandemic, I would be waking up at 5:00 and she was still on the phone at 5:00 with all these adoptees, Asian adoptees around the world. But it just blossomed into so many wonderful things. And one of the things Shelley didn't say, which I'm also amazed at, at this girl, she's also a mentor to a little Asian adoptee. They reached out to her, and it's been about two years now. [SHELLEY: Yeah.] So, I am incredibly proud of her journey and what she's done. And I just have tried to support her and will continue to support her in however she brings her life together.

MG: We just have a couple of minutes left. Let me just ask you a couple of quick things. One is, Shelley, you mentioned that you didn't know at the beginning of our conversation, you didn't really know much about your birth family at all, really. [SHELLEY: Yes.] Have you tried to find family in China? Is that something that you would like to do?

SHELLEY ROTTENBERG: Yes, it is something I'd love to do. And I've done 23 and Me. I mean, my mom gifted that to my sister and I. There's a lot of distant cousins, so not really any close family members that I was looking for. And then I filled out some, you know, organizations do volunteer things. I've done search posters where they've circulated through Chinese social media. I think the next thing I might do is China has a national database where you can, like, through a blood sample, send that in and it would connect you with potentially biological parents if they put theirs in, you know, at a police station or something. So, that's the next thing I might try. But it's a long journey and sometimes it doesn't lead to reunion. So, you know, I'm hopeful, but also trying to be realistic.

MG: Nikki, just briefly, this is-- the whole issue of international adoption is really complicated. It's been controversial not just with China. There have been reports of kids in other countries being kidnapped and trafficked. Some children have faced abuse in adoptive families. The relationship that you have with Shelley and your other daughters, very, very, very close. But given the bigger picture of this, I just wonder now that this is coming to an end with China, how you look back on the program?

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: Well, you know what, Matt? First of all, I think it was China's loss to adopt all these little girls out because I've met so many of them. And of course, my girls. And they're amazing. They're just amazing young women now, you know. And so, it really is China's loss. I don't really understand all the politics around this. I want to see China in a good light one day, God willing, my daughters and myself will go back there. And when I adopted Shelley, one of the-- I'm not sure if it was one of the doctors or... I don't know who it was, but they said, Please bring her back to see her China. And I remember that. And to me, they were very good. The whole process was very good. People were very kind. The Chinese people in China themselves were very kind to me. They seemed to love the babies. They were, they gravitated to us. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm just going to watch and see and... like everyone else, you know? But I hope for Pierre and his wife that-- there are children who are disabled and who are in need and I would just love for them to have a happy home, too.

MG: It's great to talk to you both. Thank you very much.

SHELLEY ROTTENBERG: Thank you.

NIKKI ROTTENBERG: Thank you.

MG: That's Shelley and her mother, Nikki Rottenberg. That's The Current for this Monday, the 16th of September. Q is up next. Before we go, tomorrow on the program, a conversation with the bestselling author, Yuval Noah Harari. I spoke with him on Friday as part of the Toronto International Festival of Authors. We sat down in front of a live audience at Koerner Hall to talk about his new book. It's called Nexis. It's about information. You can hear that conversation tomorrow on the program. We'll leave you with a little bit of it. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

YUVAL NOAH HARARI: Because it's an agent and not a tool, what worries me most is the kind of unknown unknowns. The things that by definition we cannot anticipate how it will-- if you can anticipate it, it's not really an AI. Again, there is now, because everybody's now caught on to this, oh AI is very important. There is a hype around it, and because of that, it's becoming difficult to know what AI really is because everything is AI. Whenever they try to sell you something, they tell you, oh, it's an AI. These are AI shoes, and these are AI socks. And like, they try to sell you a coffee machine. Oh, it's an AI coffee machine. How do you know if something is an AI? Somebody tries to sell you a coffee machine and tells you this is an AI coffee machine. So, if the coffee machine cannot teach itself anything new, it just does whatever it was pre-programmed to do, it's an automatic machine. But not every automatic machine is AI. However, if, when you approach the machine before you even press a single button, the machine talks to you and tells you, I've been watching you and millions of other people over the last few weeks or months, and based on everything I've learned about you and other members of your species, I predict that you would like an espresso. And I took the liberty to already prepare you a cup.

MG: Sounds pretty good.

YUVAL NOAH HARARI: That's an AI. And it's really an AI if it then tells you, Actually, I've invented a new drink, which I call bespresso, which is, I think you would like it even better than espresso. Here, try it out. So, this is an AI. It changes. It learns by itself. Yes, it was originally created by human beings like Yoshua Bengio. But it's, you can think about it like some kind of digital baby that you create something which its main ability is to learn and develop by itself in directions that you can't anticipate and control.

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Monday September 16, 2024 Full Transcript

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