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The Current Transcript for September 6, 2024

Host: Rebecca Zandbergen

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE POILIEVRE: Sell-out Singh has pulled a stunt.

JAGMEET SINGH: I notified the Prime Minister that I have ripped up the supply and confidence agreement. Canadians are fighting a battle. A battle for the future of the middle class.

REBECCA ZANDBERGEN: The deal is over. NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh has brought his party's pact with the Liberals to an abrupt halt. It's exactly what Pierre Poilievre have called on him to do just a week ago. And then yesterday, the Liberals' National Campaign Director announced he was stepping down. Our national affairs panel is here to untangle what it all means and where Canada goes from here. That's in an hour. Also this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: I was really young when I knew I wanted to play professionally, and I thought I had a chance of playing in a World Cup.

REBECCA ZANDBERGEN: Atiba Hutchinson has come a long way from the soccer fields of his Brampton, Ontario childhood to the captain of Team Canada at the World Cup, and now he's sharing his story in a new memoir called The Beautiful Dream. In 30 minutes, the highs and lows of his ascent to Canada's most capped national men's team player. But we begin with the standoff between Canada and China. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen in for Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Canada and China are in a tariff tit for tat

Guests: Warren Ellis, Catherine Cobden, Lynette Ong

RZ: Ottawa and Beijing are in a delicate dance of tariff tit for tat. How it began depends on who you ask. But the most recent rattling began a couple of weeks ago.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We will be introducing a 100 per cent tariff on Chinese-made electric vehicles, and a 25 per cent tariff on Chinese steel and aluminium.

RZ: That is Prime Minister Justin Trudeau at the end of August, announcing tariffs on Chinese-made electric vehicles and a surtax on Chinese steel and aluminium products. Then this week, Beijing seemed to counter. Just in time for harvest season, China announced an anti-dumping probe of Canadian canola. It also said it's taking the EV steel and aluminium cases to the World Trade Organization for consultation. We'll get to what this means for Canada's relationship with China in a moment. But first, Warren Ellis is a canola farmer in Manitoba. Also, the president of the Manitoba Canola Growers Association Board of Directors. Warren, good morning.

WARREN ELLIS: Good morning, Rebecca.

RZ: So dumping is when a company exports a product priced lower than what it would normally charge back home in their own market. So so what impact has the news of this investigation had on the canola market in Canada?

WARREN ELLIS: Well, it's... depressed it slightly to say the least. The prices have come down and, our, typical markets where we haul our great, our canola to the elevators are... Are uncertain about what the future holds right now for the market. And they're they're not 100 per cent sure they actually want to take delivery of canola right now.

RZ: Give us some context. How much Canadian canola actually goes to China in any given year?

WARREN ELLIS: Well, it's, last year, I believe it was about $5 billion, I believe.

RZ: Wow. Okay. And so when you say that the grain elevators may not take it, what does that mean to you in this, this uncertain time? Now, then.

WARREN ELLIS: Well, it's. I like... When I say that, like that's the worst-case scenario. Everything's very uncertain because the the Chinese have... Have announced this, but they've provided no details, so, it's easy to get sort of caught up in it, in sort of, you know, the possibilities. But right now, nothing's been announced, or the details haven't been provided. So, we're waiting to see, what... You know, what happens next?

RZ: Yeah. So, for right now, there's an investigation, but so far, no word on on if there will be a tariff.

WARREN ELLIS: Well. That's right. And, but so everything's in anticipation of what could possibly happen. And, you know, and so we're looking back to 2019 when, when it, when the... when we had some troubles before and, you know, and it dropped our market by, two points or 1.5 billion to $2.3 billion. So, you know, that's pretty serious effect on both agriculture and, you know, in the Canadian economy and in general.

RZ: How do you make sure that you have a plan in case it does get to that point again?

WARREN ELLIS: Well, at this point, there's not much we can do. We'll just, we wait and see. But, our... Our short-term plan right now is to bin our canola, rather than hauling it to the market, because hauling it to the market basically ensures that we will lose money this year on our canola. But the other things we do is canola is only one crop in our rotation. And so, we have five other crops that we grow along with canola. So, you know, we mitigate our risk, with that... With that sort of shotgun approach.

RZ: Yeah, I assume that's not not the case for all farmers. Some of my might rely solely on canola.

WARREN ELLIS: No, no, farmers... Canola is just one crop that... that farmers use, and they all have a rotation. Some, use more or less, but they all have a rotation.

RZ: Yeah. In a statement sent to us, the Minister of Agriculture and Agrifood, Lawrence McCauley, said the quality of Canadian canola is well known around the world. We will continue to defend and support the sector every step of the way. What are you and other farmers hoping to see then from the federal government to to protect you?

WARREN ELLIS: Well, I think the Canadian Canola Council and Canadian Canola Growers are working with the government, to, mitigate whatever effect this has on us. And so specifically, I don't know what they can do, but they are, but hopefully they can, you know, ensure that cooler heads prevail and, and, you know, this can disappear.

RZ: And just before you go, how feasible is it if it gets to the point where you don't want to... You can't send it anywhere, can you? How much of it can you bin?

WARREN ELLIS: Well, that's that's actually what we're struggling with right now. We don't have our own farm. We don't have a lot of room to be in it. So, we are pulling out some or cleaning out some old grain bins that we haven't used in five or more years. We're getting ready for our harvest. We start canola harvest this weekend, we hope. So, yeah, that is a it's a challenge for all of us trying to figure out what we're going to do with this canola.

RZ: Okay. Warren Ellis, thank you for the time this morning.

WARREN ELLIS: Thank you.

RZ: Warren Ellis is a canola farmer in Manitoba and board director of the Manitoba Canola Growers Association. Whatever costs might come to canola farmers, some industries remain in favour of tariffs and surtaxes on some Chinese goods, particularly steel and electric vehicles. Catherine Cobden is the president of the Canadian Steel Producers Association. She is in Ottawa. Good morning, Catherine.

CATHERINE COBDEN: Good morning, Rebecca.

RZ: I'm curious, when you hear Warren talk about the impact it's having on canola farmers, how valuable is it to still have these tariffs on steel and aluminium and EVs when it seems, though, the Chinese government counters in this way?

CATHERINE COBDEN: Yeah. Honestly, we're deeply concerned about China launching this investigation on canola. We think it's another example though, how China just simply if they don't play by the rules. Rebecca. And so what I think we face is, you know, a very difficult decision that had to be made for certain sectors to combat Chinese dominance on steel, aluminium and EVs. But we also have to figure out how we support, just as Warren was identifying how we support the canola industry in this, you know, difficult time.

RZ: Remind us why why you believe it is important to have these tariffs on steel and aluminium and in EVs.

CATHERINE COBDEN: Well, you know, China, as I've mentioned, doesn't play by the rules. And in Canada this is very demonstrated by steel. We have 34 trade cases against China for dumping of steel. And about 50% of all of our anti-dumping cases in China, our point are on in Canada are appointed on Chinese... on Chinese goods. So, we see a real problem in the steel area. We have been devastated by the Chinese steel in our market. We've seen a doubling of that steel in the last three years alone, even with all of these anti-dumping duties. So, clearly, something needed to be done. The China... Chinese government continues to foster significant growth in steel despite not having that market. So, it's all oriented towards exports. And we remain very vulnerable, particularly as we see our Kuzma partners, the U.S. and Mexico, putting tariffs in place on steel and aluminium.

RZ: You know, some critics will argue that Canada also subsidizes stuff about electric electric vehicle plants of course that we're paying to retrofit steel plants. So what is what China doing? How is that any different than what, what Canada is doing?

CATHERINE COBDEN: Oh, yes. Very good question. It's actually very different. For example, you know, China's steel plants are often state-owned and much, deeply, much more deeply supported, if you will. It would be like the Canadian government running steel plants. You know, that is not where we're at in Canada and in cross North America. There are subsidies, of course, but they tend to be very targeted on national objectives like perhaps decarbonization. And they're also open across, many segments of the economy. So, it's a very different situation.

RZ: The United States has also rolled out similar trade policies to Canada. But but the U.S. doesn't seem to get the same reaction from China. So why is it valuable for Canada to stay on the same page as the U.S., despite the sort of incongruencies that we see?

CATHERINE COBDEN: Well, to be clear of the U.S., when they made their announcement of the 301 tariffs, they announced 387 tariff codes, for this action; 289 of them were steel. So what that points out is the US is really deeply concerned, as we are about Chinese overcapacity. Mexico has also released significant tariffs, announced significant tariffs or actually enacted significant tariffs on steel. So what we know as Canada cannot be seen by its major trading partners as the back door for steel. So it's extremely important that we shut that door. And it's also extremely important for the long term economic security of our country that we stand together with indus... With other industries and push back on what is, you know, longstanding, egregious trade practices by China.

RZ: Okay. Catherine Cobden, we'll leave it there for now. Thank you for your time this morning.

CATHERINE COBDEN: Thanks very much, Rebecca.

RZ: Catherine Cobden is the president of the Canadian Steel Producers Association. Now for more on the politics of these tariffs, I'm joined by Lynette Ong. She is a professor of political science at the Munk School of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto. Good morning, Lynette.

LYNETTE ONG: Hello. Good morning. Rebecca.

RZ: Linette, what do you make of China's announcement that that it's going to start this this anti-dumping investigation into Canadian canola imports?

LYNETTE ONG: Not entirely surprising because we have been hit by, similar tit for tat measures before when we arrested, while we CFO Beaumont or several years ago, I think canola and Canadian pork into China were similarly hit.

RZ: China seems to have this... This method that it really is interested in exporting in, you know and will flood markets and is criticized for, for dumping and for also over-producing steel for instance. How does it describe to me the model that China seems to use in a number of industries?

LYNETTE ONG: So, China is very big on industrial policy, meaning that the Chinese government singled out certain sectors that it deemed to have very good growth potentials. And EVs is one of them. And pumping a lot of subsidies into those... Those companies. So, your previous guest mentioned [inaudible] is still enterprises, but also a bunch of other private companies have, you know, you have got, the real estate companies... Evergrande. At one stage, it also has its own EV sector. And that is also heavily subsidized by the government and by the sheer size of the Chinese economy. You can imagine the amount of EVs that they have managed to produce and they have become very, very good at it, very efficient. So, so in a way, I mean, in a way, it's like a good for Canadian consumers if we are able to enjoy cheap EV cars. But there is also politics to to it, right? Because it's heavily subsidized. It is going to hurt our, motor vehicles, industries here as well.

RZ: Yeah. As you say, it does seem to have some disconnect in that we want Canadians driving EVs, but we also don't want to destroy our own economy around those EVs. So I mean, in your mind what... How do we best handle this?

LYNETTE ONG: So, so, you know, if it's not part of the US-China power, you know, power, superpower relations and this real these new Cold War type of scenario. I would think, you know, there are actually good arguments to be made against imposing tariffs because Canadian consumers, like the Canadian producers have every right to enjoy cheaper vehicles. You know, why not, right? But, if we don't follow the US suit in terms of imposing the 100% tariffs, and we are part of the US in terms of security alliance, it would be difficult. It might have, I think, implications across other sectors such as intelligence gathering, our security partnership on other front as well. If we are not on the US, we are if we are not with the U.S. on this tariff war.

RZ: Why is it that China seems more focussed on repercussions for Canada, not... And not the U.S. in the same way around these EV tariffs?

LYNETTE ONG: I think, you know, I think we have to be realistic here because we are smaller, we are easier to target. You know, if we I mean, in, in, in, in real politics, if you target smaller players, you are less likely to get retaliation and it's more likely to work. And you have seen, you know, China doing similar things to Australia, which is also a middle power. And there's less tit for tat strategy between between China and the United States for that reason.

RZ: And so ultimately, how would you characterise Canadian and Chinese relations right now? They've been in flux for a number of years. I mean, is the connection between Ottawa and Beijing important for China?

LYNETTE ONG: It is important. I think it's only in July. Like, you know, five, six weeks ago. That means the Joly, upon the invitation of Foreign Minister of China Wang, Wang Yi visited Beijing. And many observers, including myself, saw that as a sign of perhaps the beginning of thawing of relations between Canada and China after frozen, frozen for many years since 2018, since the arrest of the two Michaels. And after this tariff announcement, I think things might get frozen also for a little while, but in a way, it's inevitable. I mean, if there is a Cold War going on between the United States and China, I... I wouldn't be too optimistic about warming of relations between Canada and China simply because we are very close, you know, politically and, and, and in terms of security partnership with the United States.

RZ: So how does Canada mend the relationship? Can it be done without backing off on on the tariffs?

LYNETTE ONG: I think. I think pretty pretty difficult. I mean, we have heard from from canola industry how, how difficult it is going to affect them. But my understanding is that in the last round of, of tit for tat, we have managed to find some inroads into China and also exporting to some other countries, by a third market. So there are all sorts of ways that you can get around, you know, tariffs and anti-dumping measures into, in trade by, by exporting through a third market. And I hope that, you know, these could be done to some extent if the anti-dumping measures are really imposed so that it would ameliorate the, the impact on our producers.

RZ: I, I'm curious about what's happening in the EU. And you know, I think that the EU takes in a lot more EVs from China. I know the tariffs are lower there, but I think the impact is so great because of the sheer number, the volume of the cars that are going to the EU. Now, they do have tariffs. And some might argue that that's an even more important avenue to explore for China. Again, why the focus on Canada and not a place like the EU?

LYNETTE ONG: I think EU, its overall policy towards China is a lot more nuanced compared to the United States because it doesn't, unlike the United States, it doesn't see China as a pure competitor. And some countries within the EU, such as France, that actually has a different sort of relationship with all the modern, new ones. You know, you know, I think ideally I don't see Canadian relations or economic relations with... With China as competitive as well. But on the political front and because of geography, I think we need to align with the with the United States, even though in terms of economic composition and economic complementarity, we are not... We are closer to the EU, compared to, to the United States.

RZ: Xi Jinping also has great interest and of course, on the African continent, hosting the China-African Summit this week, pledging nearly $51 billion over three years to help that continent. What does that say to you about China's influence on an even bigger global stage?

LYNETTE ONG: It is trying very hard to buy, to buy friends because... Simply because it has offended, so many people in the, in advanced democracies. It is also trying to buy friends in, in Africa as well as in places like Southeast Asia. And those places are also becoming market for its', for its' exports. It is able to explore some of these surplus products, beat EVs or steel or other products, to those parts of the world. And they are less likely to get pushback from developing countries because they are also giving them aids and other financial subsidies.

RZ: Before you go, do you think this anti-dumping investigation into canola, the end result... Will it be a tariff, a slapping a big tariff on, on canola from Canada?

LYNETTE ONG: I think tariff will be difficult. More difficult to call because it's more transparent. So, they might do anti-dumping, they might use, you know, sanitary reason because those are like the lack of transparency is easier to impose. And you don't have to come up with evidence to show that Canada has offended some, some regulations with tariffs is a lot more, a lot more transparent and more difficult to justify.

RZ: Okay. Lynette Ong, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

LYNETTE ONG: Thank you for having me.

RZ: Lynette Ong is a professor of political science at the Munk School of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto. The CBC news is next. Then...

SOUNDCLIP

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Just bringing all of these different cultures together and going out there and playing the world sport, it... It meant a lot. And I think it helped me as, as a human and obviously as a, as a football player. You know, those moments were huge for me.

[Music: Theme]

RZ: Atiba Hutchinson is a Canadian soccer star, and it all started on a pitch in Brampton, Ontario, playing a mini–World Cup with his friends where Atiba's dreams were born and why he never stopped chasing them. That's coming up in six minutes. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Fades up]

How soccer star Atiba Hutchinson chased his beautiful dream

Guests: Atiba Hutchinson

RZ: I'm Rebecca Vandbergen, sitting in for Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current. When Atiba Hutchinson was growing up in Brampton, Ontario, he played in a soccer tournament with kids from the neighbourhood. The pitch was a patchy field behind the public school. The players tended to it themselves with a rented lawn roller from Home Depot and handmade soccer nets. The tournament was a mini World Cup, and the kids played for the teams that match their family backgrounds Jamaica, Spain, Ghana and, in Atiba's case, Trinidad. It was a long journey from those childhood games in Brampton to this:

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE ONE: So, we arrive at a moment these Canadian players have dreamt about since childhood days. The biggest stage where only a select few get the chance to perform. An opportunity to represent the country. A chance to create memories for a nation. After 36 years away, the World Cup return is underway. So close for a Atiba Hutchinson!

VOICE TWO: [Unclear] for Junior Hoilett and Hutchinson rises above everyone else. That is so close.

RZ: The captain of Team Canada at the 2022 FIFA World Cup. It took decades for Atiba Hutchinson to achieve that dream. He shares the ups and downs of his soccer career in his new memoir, The Beautiful Dream. Atiba, good morning.

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

RZ: Of course. What is it like to hear that montage and to think back to those moments when you were on the pitch at the World Cup?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: I got goosebumps. Goosebumps. I mean, just the experience of all of it and just the whole journey. It's, it was very, like, surreal, you know? So, yeah. Great, great memories throughout the way. You know, starting from, as you said, you know, my childhood right up until, you know, the end of my footballing days and playing in a World Cup. So, yeah, really, really special moments. Loved every moment of it. And, yeah, that World Cup experience was truly, it was a blessing. And I loved it all.

RZ: How young were you when you thought, you know what, I want to go to the World Cup?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Yeah, I was pretty young. You know, I watched, you know, that World Cup in the U.S. in 94' and, you know, I was kind of just hooked on, you know, playing on those type of stages. So, I was really young when I knew I wanted to, you know, play professionally. And obviously, you know, when you get to watch the biggest tournament in the world, you're really just, you know, really set on trying to, you know, make that happen. And, the older I got, the more you know, the more experience I got and the better I got and developed as a player. And, you know, those chances and dreams, you know, became, a little bit closer. So, yeah, I was, to answer your question, I was really, really young when I thought I had a chance of playing in a World Cup, or dreamt of playing in a World Cup.

RZ: Yeah. Let's go back to those young days. The soccer fields in Brampton, the mini World Cup that you guys put on with your friends. How seriously did you take those games?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Oh, they were serious. There were serious. You wanted to represent, you know, where you come from. And, for us, it was the World Cup, you know, there was players and our friends that were from different parts of the world and we just wanted to go out there and show, you know, what we were made of and represent the country that we were representing. So, oh, they were intense. You know, we would get into some arguments there, some heated moments and obviously lots of fun. But, we tried our hardest in winning those tournaments, so they were cool. There were really, really cool moments for us.

RZ: You write a lot about the book in, about these younger days and going up to that patchy field of grass with your friends in Brampton, and how you all really were representing the countries that you originated from, where your families came from. What-- how do you think that influenced the kind of players you all became and the player you became?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: I think it helped us a lot, you know. It brought us together and brought a lot of talent that was around and just, you know, you learned a lot from each other. We pushed each other on a lot. You know, we know Canada's very multicultural and, you know, you get to see things from other parts of the world that, it wasn't really something back then in Canada where, you know, football was not really a big sport. So, just bringing all of these different, you know, cultures together and going out there and playing, you know, the world sport, it meant a lot. And I think it helped me as a human and obviously as a football player. So, you know, those moments were huge for me. Yeah.

RZ: It's interesting that in the book, you write about how you always dreamed that you would play for Trinidad one day. When did you think, oh, you know what, maybe Canada does have something here. Maybe I can represent the red and white.

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Yeah, exactly. I think it happened pretty early because I started playing with the national team probably around, I was 16. And even before that, I was with the provincial team. So, I was representing Ontario. So, I was kind of like, you know, in that system at a pretty early age. But before that, yeah, I always felt like, you know, I was Trinidadian, my, you know, my parents and everything were from the Caribbean. And that's where I felt was home. But, you know, the more time you spend in Canada and, you know, you start representing Canada at a very young age, that's where I had my mind, you know, set on and representing Canada. And then I got the chance when I was 20 and, you know, I didn't think twice about putting that jersey on and really committing to representing Canada and in the end, very blessed and fortunate to have the chance to represent Canada for the amount of, you know, time that I did.

RZ: I loved reading about how interested your father, your dad was in propelling you through your career and really his focus on what you were able to do and his dedication to you was just inspiring. Where would you be if not for your dad?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, he really did believe in me from a very young age. You know, he would always go out there and, you know, bring me on the pitch, you know, playing in parks and just working on just the little details of the game, you know, the passing, the control. And, you know, he took me around. Didn't matter where we had games, you know, we'd get in the car, he'd drive me and a bunch of players on the team to these places around, you know, the GTA and even in the U.S. and those type of tournaments that we would play in, and he just really was dedicated to, you know, just helping me learn and grow as a player. You know, he loves obviously the sport and, it just-- not only him, my mother as well, they put a lot of time and effort into, you know, creating the player that I became.

RZ: Yeah. There was one tournament, I understand, you played in Florida, with your high school. You went down there and won the tournament. And you talk about how it was like the biggest thing that had ever happened to you?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Oh, that was huge because we were playing against some good teams over there in the U.S., and we were just a high school team from Canada with not, you know, the biggest of our best players. We just kind of had a talk about going over to the U.S. and making this happen. And we didn't really expect much, but we ended up persuading our coach. And, you know, the school allowed us to go and, yeah, it was an amazing experience. We started off the tournament not very well. And then we just kind of grew into that tournament. And then, yeah, in the end, we had a massive win against a good team. And it was just a special like, moment for all of us together to win something like a tournament like that outside of the country with some good teams around you. Yeah. So, it was kind of an eye opener for a lot of us. And I kind of really stood out in that tournament. So, yeah, it was just a great experience for all of us.

RZ: You know, Canadians know you as our national captain, but you had a really successful career in Europe as well, eventually ending up playing for many years in Turkey. What did you like about playing in Turkey, and how is it different than playing with Canada's national team?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Yeah, Turkey's an amazing place, especially, you know, how much they love football there. They're extremely passionate about the game. You can't really go anywhere in the country where you won't meet, you know, a young boy or a man that has a team that they really, really support. And, you know, they're very, they're like fanatics. They love the game so much. And, they just show so much love and appreciation. They did that for me from the moment I got there. And, you know, they really like to see players that, that give 100 per cent effort every time they go out onto the pitch. And that was me as a person, as a player. And they really, you know, showed the love, towards me. And I just loved every moment of it. I had ten years there with a very, very good team. You know, we won some championships there. And, you know, I raised my kids there. They were all born there, and just, it's so close to home. So, you know, we loved every moment of it. We still actually live there for the time being. But it's a great country. And just had great experiences with the people and the culture and everything is just, it's amazing that.

RZ: The support you talk about, we have a little bit of a sound bite of that for you. We found a video posted by Soccer Canada. It was put together after you'd been in Turkey for five years with your team, Besiktas. It featured the voices of some of your Turkish fans. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE ONE: Atiba is everything to Besiktas. He is the heart of Besiktas. We wish him the best.

VOICE TWO: [Foreign speech]

TRANSLATOR: We hope that he stays in Turkey. Noah, Atiba's son, is also going to play for Besiktas, God willing. Hitchinson is very professional. He's very disciplined and we love him a lot.

RZ: How's that feel hearing those voices back?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Cool. It's cool. It's amazing to hear them speak of me in that way. And, yeah, as I mentioned to you, that's how they've always been, you know, like, I think it was it was probably after my first or second game, like, they knew what type of player I was. And, yeah, that's just how they always feel from me. From the moment I got there until the very end, they've always shown that support and it gives you that extra push as a player. You know, they motivate you. You want to work hard for, not only for yourself and for the club, but you know, you want to do your thing for the fans as well. And the people that really are there are supporting you. So, yeah, as I said, you know, I had great, great times there and I have a lot of good moments and memories there.

RZ: You know, in other parts of the world, soccer players, football players are stars. They're legends. In Canada, it's taken a little longer for fans to come around in that way. What did you notice in the difference and where are we now?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Oh, man. We've come a long way. A long, long way. I think obviously the World Cup helped a lot, but even before we got to the World Cup, you've kind of seen things starting to change with the number of Canadian fans showing up in the stadiums and going to play games against Honduras and El Salvador, things just changed, you know, and I think that's something that Canada was always missing. You know, you need to have results for that to happen. And we started slowly getting those results. And then once the fans are there and the performances are at a good level, I think everything just really clicked at the right time and it's just gone. It's skyrocketed, you know, ever since then, there's a lot of support now, you know, around the country, you can see that when, you know, Canada's playing in the bars and just the talk around, you know, different cities and everything. And it's just, it's so nice to see, you know. I spent 20 years doing that, but I would say probably the first 16 years of that, it wasn't all that great. You know, we played a lot of games in our own country where we thought we were playing away. So, to see how things are really turned around, it's exactly what Canada needed. And, I mean, we're all proud to see how far, you know, the sport has come along.

RZ: Yeah, I can attest to that. My partner travelled to Atlanta to watch the most recent game that was there. So, yeah, he--it's everywhere. Yeah. You also talk a fair bit about reffing that Canada had to endure. Not always in Canada's favour. I want to play this clip for you. Have a listen to this incident.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: There's Bernier back in and now it's Atiba Hutchison. He's scores! He's given offside. He's [unclear.] I'm not sure how he's done that. He's come off the defender, and the Canadiens are wondering why. But the linesman has given offside.

RZ: What do you think when you hear that again?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Oh, man. A lot of anger comes into my head when I hear those words and just that whole clip. It's, probably for me, I would say one of the worst calls I've ever seen or, you know, been on the pitch and experienced. Kind of just change the whole course of that game. It was right at the end of the game. And we were really, we had a lot of momentum in that game. And I think if that goal had stood, which it should have, we would have won that game. That's what we believe, you know.

RZ: Yeah. Remind us what this, what the context here. What were you playing for at that point?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: So, that was in the semi-finals of the Gold Cup and we were losing one nothing. The U.S. were winning one zero. They had gotten a red card maybe 20 minutes earlier, and, yeah, we were just, you know, putting a lot of pressure. We're playing good football. And throughout the whole course of the tournament, we were playing really good, probably some of the best football we've played in a very long time. And we got a goal which should have counted right at the end of the game. It was like the last kick of the game, and it was off of their defender who headed the ball back. And when that happens, then it's just, you can't you can play on. You know, I wasn't offside. I received the ball and scored. And the goal should have counted and the referee, out of nowhere just, he called it back and we just kind of lost our minds and, yeah. It's frustrating. It was frustrating at the time because you're just looking for that little break and, you know, maybe we would have had a chance to get to the finals of, you know, a good tournament. And yeah, things just turned in the wrong way. So, we had a lot of those moments in my time. But things really did start changing. Like, once we started playing better. And, you know, the referees respected us a lot more after that. So, it was great.

RZ: It comes down to the respect, do you think? That you received the calls you did?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Oh, 100 per cent. They had no respect for us back then. No way. They just, they didn't respect us. They thought we were a small team and they didn't feel that we needed to get any of those calls. So, we would play games at home, as I said to you earlier, you know, where you have a lot of the away fans in our stadium, and that gives more reason for the referees to not give you any calls. And we couldn't really do anything about it, you know. [Unclear] but nothing would happen. And then we started playing some good stuff. And then, you know, the referees started changing the calls. Things went in the right way. And, yeah, it's helped us, I think, more of a fair game. So, that's really helped us. And I think we have the respect that we deserve now.

RZ: What did it take to get there? Like, where you can talk about being able to play good football. And that made the difference, but to get to the World Cup in 2022 after so many failed attempts, what was it that launched you to that stage?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Well, we started, I mean, we started getting some players that were, you know, playing in good clubs in Europe and, you know, winning championships. You know, some guys were playing in the MLS winning with Toronto FC. You know, guys like Alonso were making massive moves to Bayern Munich and, you know getting that feeling of playing with a big club and winning championships there. You know, year in year out. Jonathan David playing in Europe, winning a championship there. So, it's--it, we started getting more talent. But as a team, we just started playing better, you know and creating chances and dominating some of the countries in our region, and we needed that. And you know, once that happens, then you get the confidence, the belief and all of that comes together. So, I think that helped a lot.

RZ: I want to ask you a little bit about Soccer Canada. You talk about it in the book, but there's been quite a few disputes with the organization over compensation, financial transparency. How healthy do you think the national program is right now?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: I think it's going in the right direction. You know, Kevin Blue, I've met with, you know, in recent months and I think he's been doing a great job of bringing everything together and kind of just focusing on, you know, the bigger picture and getting things done the right way. And I think the players are in a better place right now. And I think that's what needs to happen. You know, everybody needs to come together and make things go in the right way and just, you know, get on the same page. And that's the only way you kind of develop and you go forward. So, I think, you know, they're doing a lot of the right things. And I think it's only going to get better from here.

RZ: What about the drone scandal? At the Paris Olympics, Canada faced a stiff penalty. We heard about a coach and a contract, a member of staff had been using a drone to spy on New Zealand's practice of all sessions. What did you make of what happened in Paris? And sort of the fallout from all of this?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Yeah, I think it wasn't obviously a good look going into a major tournament. You kind of just want to, you know, yeah, the women's team had a good team, and they just want to be, you know, focus on what they're there to do and play their football. So, obviously not a great look. And I think there's, you know, things that need to be looked at. But overall, I think you can't take anything away from, you know, what the women have done over the years. You know, they've battled and they've shown how good of a team they've become. And it's looked really good for them and they've won, you know, medals and they've got a good bunch of talented players. And I think that's what's, you know, what's important. And I think it's just going to continue to get better for both the men and women.

RZ: There has been suggestions that this, the drone spying has been going on in and has sort of been part of the Canadian soccer ways for a while, that it's systemic and that it certainly happens in the men's division as well. At the national level. Is that something that you've seen, or are you concerned that this is something that has been pretty pervasive?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: I think that's something that that needs to be, you know, taken up with the the right people. I think, as I mentioned, you know, the women were in a tournament and they were really focused on what they were doing. And I think it kind of just, it's something that maybe have gotten into the women's head, but I think that's something that, you know, the right people need to speak about and take into, you know, into their hands.

RZ: Okay. So, let's return to Brampton to end this conversation. That's, of course, where you grew up. You were back in the spring to open a new soccer facility named after you. There's also a new tournament in your name. What are you seeing in those young kids back in your hometown? Is there a sense of pride when you look at what you've achieved and what others are achieving after you?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: For sure. It's a court that we had made in Brampton similar to what you would see out in Europe. So, for me, I had great experiences of, you know, seeing those type of things and what it would do to communities. And bring people together. And that's something that I always had envisioned of bringing back to Brampton. So, for that, it'll be an opportunity for a lot of the kids in the city. I think it's great. You know, ever since we put that up, there's been a number of kids, you know, on a daily basis that go out there and just, you know, they just have fun. They get to express themselves and just be happy and play the game in tight spaces, which I think are important. So, it's been great for the city. There's been, you know, great feedback from that. And, you know, hopefully it's something that can continue to grow. And, I'm just happy that I could have, you know, make that happen in my own city.

RZ: What's your advice for the next generation of soccer players on how they find success? I know the drive to win has been a bit of a big part of your formula.

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Just keep working hard, keep playing, play as much as you can. You know, I think that's what helped, you know, our generation as players. You know, we were always out there and, you know, just getting out on the streets and playing football and just, you know, not just the training sessions that you have with your teams, but just get out there on the streets. Play with your friends around and just learn as much as you can. I think, you know, the sport has come a long way and the country is going to get better and better. There's going to be, you know, there is obviously more and more coaches that are coming out and it's going to help us as a country. But, you know, just enjoy the game and keep playing as much as you can and work hard.

RZ: The men's team, just lastly, they're playing a couple of friendlies this weekend, I understand. What are you watching for? What are their chances?

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Yeah. Important games, obviously. You know, the first one against the U.S., away, after a great tournament that Canada has had in the Copa America. And just want to see them continuing to build off of, you know, how things have gone recently. We've got a lot of talent and hopefully we can get some good results in these two games.

RZ: Okay. Atiba Hutchinson, congratulations on an amazing career. And thank you for joining us.

ATIBA HUTCHINSON: Thanks for having me.

RZ: Atiba Hutchinson is the former captain of the Canadian men's soccer team. His new memoir is The Beautiful Dream. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, and you're listening to The Current. Matt Galloway will be back hosting again next week. On Monday, he'll have the first in a series of stories from Haida Gwaii. It's a grouping of islands off the north coast of British Columbia. It's the ancestral home of the Haida people, and the nation recently signed a lands title agreement with the B.C. government, an agreement that's being called the first of its kind. It recognizes Haida title to the land. It's a right, the Haida say they never gave up. On Monday's show, Matt talks to people who have been advocating for control over the land for decades. And part of the journey takes him deep into the woods with renowned carver and artist Jaalen Edenshaw.

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MATT GALLOWAY: The trail in the woods starts nicely enough, but it does not take long before we are quite literally bushwhack.

VOICE ONE: Okay back there Matt?

MATT GALLOWAY: Yes I am, thank you. Slight detour into the woods.

VOICE TWO: How old would these trees be?

JAALEN EDENSHAW: Probably three or 400 years here. Some of the bigger ones would be 500. You can see on this side here, everything has been logged on this side. And then over here, it's old growth forest. And, that all is protected because of the canoe we're going to go see.

MATT GALLOWAY: There's a clearing, and Jaalen stops next to what looks like a tree that has fallen in the woods. It's on a 45 degree angle covered in moss.

JAALEN EDENSHAW: So, here's the canoe right here.

MATT GALLOWAY: This would be from how long ago?

JAALEN EDENSHAW: If I had to guess, I'd say the 1860s. And that's when the smallpox hit. And most of the canoes come from that time.

RZ: Listen for the full story from Haida Gwaii on Monday with Matt Galloway. Coming up after your regional update.

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PIERRE POILIEVRE: My message to sell-out Singh, is this: if you're serious about ending your costly carbon tax coalition with Trudeau, then commit today to voting for a carbon tax election at the earliest confidence vote in the House of Commons.

[Music: Theme]

RZ: How likely is it that the Conservatives of NDP could trigger an early election? Our national affairs panel is here to discuss. That's in 90 seconds. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, and you are listening to The Current.

[Music: Fades up]

The NDP tore up the Liberal deal. Why now?

Guests: Stephanie Levitz, Ryan Tumilty

RZ: I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, and you're listening to The Current.

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JAGMEET SINGH: Justin Trudeau has let Canadians down and Canadians are done with his endless disappointment and delay. Trudeau's liberals can't deliver change. They are too weak and too selfish to stop Pierre Poilievre and the conservatives.

RZ: Jagmeet Singh and the New Democratic Party have decided to drop out of their deal with the liberals. The NDP had been supporting the Liberal minority government since March 2022. The end of the deal leaves Trudeau and his party in limbo, and means another election may be right around the corner. Joining me now are Stephanie Levitz, a reporter who covers Parliament Hill in Ottawa, and Ryan Tumilty is a parliamentary reporter for the National Post. Good morning to you both.

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: Good morning.

RYAN TUMILTY: Good morning.

RZ: Stephanie, I'll start with you. Why now? Why are we seeing him rip up the deal now?

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: I mean, the politically cynical answer is take a look at the polls. Right? They're not showing any forward momentum for the New Democrats. It sort of ebbs and flows. And as we get on this road to the next election, the next scheduled election would have been October 2025. The NDP and Jagmeet Singh, we're going to have to find a way to distinguish themselves for the liberals to encourage people to vote New Democrat. That's very, very hard when every question coming at the New Democrats is about the liberals and about this deal. They needed a way to differentiate themselves and get going on that. And there was definitely some internal frustration within the NDP that what was left in this deal to achieve. But of course, that opens up the question of why rip it up? Why not just sign a new one?

RZ: Do you think they actually will be able to differentiate themselves from that deal at this point?

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: I mean, it's difficult. A year is a long time in politics if we think, if we stick to the October 25th date for the election. If it comes any sooner, it's going to be a hard thing for Jagmeet Singh to sort of justify. Well, okay, you know, yes, you achieved things through this deal. And they did achieve things for Canadians. But what about all these other things? Now you say that the liberals are weak. Now you say that they're selfish, but you voted with them again and again and again.

RZ: Ryan, Pierre Poilievre called on Jagmeet Singh to do exactly this, rip up the deal, just a week ago. He's now calling it a stunt. What do the conservatives actually think about what's going on here?

RYAN TUMILTY: You know, I think the conservatives are waiting to see if the NDP is actually prepared to vote no confidence in the government, right? That's the real test here. This deal could have been ramped up at any point. But the real test is, you know, do the NDP actually bring on an election especially, you know, as Stephanie rightly points out, while they're third place in the polls. I think, you know, they were hoping to see if this moved to things. If you could shake up the current political landscape. Because we've been in this situation now for at least a year with the conservative leader having a massive polling lead. And really, nothing has changed. You know, you've seen some parties go up or down a little here or there. But we've been in kind of a status quo holding pattern, and I think the NDP wanted to try shaking that up.

RZ: Do you worry or do you think that the NDP looks as though it's capitulated to the conservatives request? Or is that how NDP voters will interpret this, do you think?

RYAN TUMILTY: I think there's probably some danger of that. Although the NDP have made great pains to point out that, you know, the video was filmed well before Pierre Poilievre made his demands. And Pierre Poilievre made his demands in such a way that I'm not sure they would have been that receptive. You know, he started out by calling him a sell-out and accusing him of thinking only of his pension and none of his constituents. That was never going to be a particularly persuasive message. But certainly, you know, it's something the NDP has to think about. I think that, again, they come back to this test, though, of of confidence votes. And I think they'll face one pretty early because the conservatives are going to ensure that happens. And after everything that Jagmeet Singh said about the Prime Minister, you know, and the liberals being tired and weak and, you know, sell-outs to corporate interests, I think it's going to be difficult for them to then vote for them.

RZ: A recent Nanos poll shows that 54 per cent of Canadians supported or somewhat supported that NDP Liberal agreement. What do you think, Stephanie, that Jagmeet Singh has to gain by painting Justin Trudeau as someone who is supporting corporate greed? And how do you think he did in conveying that message yesterday?

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: So, one of the benefits of this deal, you know, as it relates to Jagmeet Singh, is that, again, he did achieve policies and programs and had them implemented stronger laws around workers rights, dental care, pharmacare, that it's not clear the liberals ever would have moved on by themselves. Right? So, he does have something to show for it. And that's always been a difficult thing when you are not the governing party in the House. Right? And where Canadians supported the deal, if I was thinking it through, is that Canadians, by and large, like to see their politicians working together. Would rather have everybody rowing in the same direction and trying to achieve what's best for the country. That's a net positive for democracy and that's a benefit. So for Jagmeet Singh, he's got something. I mean, he has a record. When you talk to the NDP, you know, over the last several months, one of the things they'll often say they've loved this deal because it's gotten them closer to power than they've probably ever been before. They now know how the sausage is made. They are in the room. They're achieving things for Canadians. They're learning about policy. They can take all of that and try and position themselves perhaps as an actual government. Hey, we know how to do this. Look what we did before. Wouldn't it be nice if Jagmeet Singh could communicate all of that to Canadians? Because in his press conference, he just couldn't really. He couldn't really articulate the why now, what's next, what's going to happen. So, all of that presumed leadership and governance that sort of was built into this deal seemed a bit fall apart during that press conference.

RZ: And Ryan, do the NDP lose the credit for some of those things because they were working with the liberals? And will it just be painted as a Liberal win and not an NDP win?

RYAN TUMILTY: Yeah, I think that's actually one of the dangers of having pulled out of the deal now. You know, the liberals can credibly say, even though a lot of these things were not on their platform in 2021, a lot of these things were definitely forced on them by the NDP. But the liberals can credibly say that even after the NDP stopped supporting us, we got these things done. And certainly I think that is their plan. Their plan is to say, you know, six months from now, if they're still in power, they can say, you know, we got pharmacare up and running. And if they're not still in power, they can say, we would have gotten pharmacare up and running if not for the NDP turning its back on us. So, you know, I think certainly the NDP have always struggled to take credit for programs in this supply in confidence deal and I think this might actually make it a bit more challenging.

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: And, you know, we heard Stephanie just say that she thought the liberal, or sorry, the NDP is not doing a good job of reflecting that. And I'm curious how you thought Jagmeet Singh did in that press conference.

RYAN TUMILTY: Yeah. You know, I think the press conference was a struggle because it it brings up a lot of questions that he-- that are difficult to answer. The, why now? You know? And some of the difficult questions that, about why they decided to bring the split and how he would govern because of course, that's harder than being in opposition. I will say, though, I mean, they did an impressive job of keeping this a secret of rolling out with this video. You know, as much as I was annoyed that he wasn't taking reporter questions that day, by only rolling it out with that video, he made sure that he got his message across.

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: Yeah, Stephanie, yesterday, the Liberal's national campaign director, Jeremy Broadhurst, said he was stepping down. What kind of a blow is this now? He said it was because of family reasons, but the timing certainly leaves some questions. What do you make of what happened and how that plays out for the liberals?

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: Yeah, I mean it is a blow. Jeremy Broadhurst is an old hand in the party. He's been a formidable campaign strategist and player for the liberals, both in the campaign context and in the governance context. It lends more credence and more weight to this narrative that people are backing away from the Trudeau liberals, people who've given their life to the Trudeau government, to its messaging, to keeping it in power, are now taking a look at the landscape and wondering, well, do I have it in me to do this again? Because the outcome is far from assured. And if you believe the polls, you know a lot of devoted liberal partisans will say, eff the polls, you know, the only poll that matters is election day. But the landscape doesn't look great. And you have to look at that and think, do I want to do this anymore? Do I want to keep going? And it's fair, I think, for a lot of folks to be like, you know what? No.

RZ: The Pierre Poilievre's conservatives, Ryan, are sort of the ones to sort of I think, come up the middle here, of course, although they don't need to because they're far ahead in the polls. But what does this mean for the Conservatives to have the NDP and the Liberals kind of in this spot now?

RYAN TUMILTY: You know, I think for the Conservatives it's what they've been hoping for, right? They have this 20 point lead in national polls. But a lead in national polls really isn't worth much. It doesn't work unless it's held on to, you know, until election day. And the liberal strategy really is to wait as long as they can for this election. They're hoping to wait into next year when they believe that the economic circumstances of Canadians will be better, when some of those pocketbook issues will have gone away, when interest rates will have fallen, which they're already starting to do. So, you know, the liberals strategy was to delay this election until October of next year. Hope that in that time, Canadians take a second look at Pierre Poilievre, but then they also start feeling better about their own personal circumstances and perhaps less mad at the government for having created those personal circumstances. So, you know, knowing that what Jagmeet Singh said yesterday that an election is now more likely, is what the conservatives have been hoping for.

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: Yeah, he did say that as he was repeatedly asked if there would be an earlier election if they would force it. He said more likely. But Stephanie, what position would the NDP be in if there was an election in the fall?

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: I mean, the polls suggest a terrible one, right? And although it's worth noting that, you know, time and time again, the Conservatives win majority governments when the New Democrats are strong. That's what they need, right? They need them to come after the sort of centrist or take some of the vote away. The Liberals come up the middle. I'm sorry, the Conservatives come up the middle. And I know that in conservative circles, there's been a lot of frustration sometimes about the fact that they attack the NDP because they think, no, no, we actually we don't want that. We want a strong New Democratic Party. But now Pierre Poilievre is rewriting the rulebook on a lot of that stuff. He's going after Jagmeet Singh voters. We have byelections coming up in a couple of weeks, one of them in an NDP held riding in Manitoba, Elmwood--Transcona. The conservatives are trying very, very hard to win that riding. It will be very interesting to see. And then that could set the table for what the implications are for the conservatives farther down the line.

RZ: Stephanie and Ryan, I'm going to give you each ten secnds to answer this, but will we see an election this fall? Stephanie?

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: Maybe.

RZ: Okay. Ryan, what are your thoughts?

RYAN TUMILTY: Yeah, I got the same thought. Maybe. If we don't see an election this fall, though, it will be awkward for Jagmeet Singh. Because after everything he said, voting to keep the government running is awkward, to put it mildly.

RZ: Okay, Ryan. Stephanie, thank you so much for this.

STEPHANIE LEVITZ: Thank you.

RZ: Stephanie Levitz is a reporter who covers Parliament Hill in Ottawa. Ryan Tumilty is a parliamentary reporter for the National Post.

[Music: Instrumental]

Overheated: How rising temperatures affect our lives and the world around us

Guests: Bob McDonald, Brian Goldman, Laura Lynch

RZ: I'm Rebecca Zandbergen and this is The Current.

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BOB MCDONALD: Okay. Is this on right now?

SPEAKER: Yes, it is.

BOB MCDONALD: It is. So, can I collect some data? Can I go for ride to actually collect some real data in Montreal? Oh, goody. I'm part of a scientific project! This is great! I feel like a real scientist here. Here we go.

[Sound: Bicycle bell ringing]

BOB MCDONALD: Under the trees, it does feel cooler. It's a little shaky on the steering.

SPEAKER: Yes.

BOB MCDONALD: With all the weight on the back.

RZ: That voice may sound familiar to you. It is, of course, Bob McDonald, the host of the CBC program Quirks and Quarks. So, why do we have Bob riding around on a bicycle? Well, it's all part of a special bit of CBC Radio programming called Overheated. Three CBC shows Quirks and Quarks, White Coat, Black Art and What On Earth are teaming up this weekend to look at the effects of an increasingly hot planet from the perspectives of science, health and climate. So, joining me now are the three CBC radio hosts collaborating on the series. From What On Earth, I'm joined by Laura Lynch. Dr. Brian Goldman is here from White Coat, Black Art, and Bob McDonald is here from Quirks and Quarks. Good morning to you all.

LAURA LYNCH: Hi there.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Good morning.

BOB MCDONALD: Hello. Hello.

RZ: All right, Laura, I'll start with you. Your show has been focused, of course, on climate change and also solutions from the beginning. What did What On Earth look at for this series?

LAURA LYNCH: Well, I just want to say first, I can't wait to hear more about Bob's bike ride, but, I just, what we're doing is because we do talk about climate change all the time, and we were asked to look at heat. We decided we wanted to go north because climate change, the impacts of it, are being felt more acutely in the north than in the rest of the country. And we wanted to, of course, tell a compelling story about heat that not only affected a keystone species, but about the people who are connected to it and who live there. It's about the Chinook salmon in Yukon, and this particular population of salmon makes the longest migration in the world, more than 3200 kilometres along the Yukon River. But here's the proble-- the population has all but collapsed, especially in 2022 and 2023. The numbers are down from hundreds of thousands crossing into the Yukon to fewer than 20,000. So, that means people like James MacDonald, who is a member of the Ta'an Kwäch'än nation and who is a long time member of committees working to protect the Chinook, have had to do some pretty unusual things. He told me about going to Costco in Vancouver from Whitehorse in order to buy canned sockeye salmon. Not the same as Chinook cut from the river, but at least it's something.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES MACDONALD: We can still maintain some kind of diet of salmon in our house that way. It's not the preferred method. Culture doesn't come from a can, but you know, when we prepare it with the kids, we can still talk to them about it. We can still tell them about, you know, what salmon means to us and how grateful we are to have salmon in our household, because not everybody can afford that.

RZ: Laura, what do we know now about the science behind how rising temperatures are actually impacting Chinook salmon?

LAURA LYNCH: The research is still ongoing, but it seems the warming ocean waters have changed the food web for the Chinook in the Bering Sea, which is where they live most of their adult lives. They're getting fewer nutrients, and that makes them more vulnerable to parasites they may ingest. They sicken. Some die in the river as they migrate. If they're caught, their flesh is turned to mush and it's basically inedible. There is now an unprecedented seven year ban on fishing them in both Yukon and Alaska, although some First Nations actually voluntarily stopped fishing for Chinook a while ago. And for young people who have never experienced those fishing camps that families used to have down by the rivers where they passed on knowledge and tradition to build the community ties, there's a real disconnect.

RZ: Okay. Well, we'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment. But Brian, let's move to you. You've been hearing about the effects of heat and health for a number of years now, of course. So, what approach did your show, White Coat, Black Art take on this?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Well, not surprisingly, we opted for medicine on the other side of a very hot gurney, if I can cop our usual tagline. We focused on one individual who works in an extremely hot job and looked at the immediate impact on her health. Her name is Britnee Miazek. She's an apprentice ironworker in Sioux Sainte Marie, Ontario. She works on the top of a coke oven used in steel production. It's a giant open metal box that's outside. There's fire, smoke, it's red hot. She's got a blowtorch, and she's welding on top of that in a thermal jumpsuit, helmet and respirator. She says everything that she can see is red hot. So, on the job, she gets very typical symptoms of heat exhaustion, fatigue and dizziness. I see that in marathon runners who are hospitalized. Twice now, though, she's had episodes where she stopped getting her periods. That's after three months or more of day to day exposure to heat. The U.S. centres for Disease Control says excess heat might affect both men's and women's fertility and overall reproductive health. And that's according to studies that were done decades ago. This is not news. It's old news, if you want to call it that. And yet, physicians aren't taught much about it. Britnee tried to get answers from her doctor, and this is how she describes it.

SOUNDCLIP

BRITNEE MIAZEK: Well, I thought maybe I was going through menopause earlier or something. I didn't really know what was going on. You know, I am 35. But, you know, that's a little early, but you never know. But I had a pretty good idea by that point that it was the coke ovens. So, I didn't really know what the doctors would be able to do, because there's really no research on it. So...

BRIAN GOLDMAN: And, you know, we've actually heard about that happening in female firefighters have worked in wildfire areas where they're there in the environment all the time. So, what we decided to do to try to formalize this is to bring her to a state of the art environmental research lab at Brock University in St. Catharines, where researchers are studying the immediate impact that heat has on workers in health.

RZ: Okay, so what did she have to do in this science experiment?

RZ: Well, the night before, she swallowed a sensor that looks like a giant vitamin pill. It measures her core body temperature. Kind of a cool gadget. The experiment takes place in a three by four metre environmental chamber, where the researchers can control the temperature anywhere from -30°C up to a hellacious plus 50. They control the humidity and can even dial down the oxygen to simulate high altitude places like Mexico City. So for Brittany, they set the temperature at 40°C, 50 per cent humidity. And she was dressed in her work garb thermal jumpsuit, safety helmet, respirator. And she did four sets, five minutes on a treadmill, five minutes lifting ten kilogram weights like a bag weight off the floor onto the table from the table, back to the floor, and then five minutes of rest. And she does this for four cycles. Now, I'm wearing shorts and a t shirt, and I'm hot and sweaty and uncomfortable. And she's in that full garb and she's doing the exercise. And by the time she gets to the fourth cycle, her face is beet red. She's sweating profusely. She looks exhausted. She's talking slower. She's thinking slower. And, objectively, her core body temperature goes up over one degree Celsius. Her heart rate goes up 50 to 60 beats per minute over and above what it was when she was exercising at a moderate pace. And clearly her body is stressed.

RZ: It sounds just like cruel and unusual punishment, really.

BRIAN GOLDMAN: I mean...It's science! Medical science.

RZ: You got to get through that. Yeah. All right, let's go over to Bob McDonald. We heard you riding around on a bicycle there at the top of this piece that we're talking about now. Where were you? And what does this have to do now with what Quirks and Quarks has decided to do on this subject?

BOB MCDONALD: Well, I was in downtown Montreal riding a bicycle that was owned by a scientists from Concordia University, Johanna Arnet. And what they're trying to do is get a picture of just how hot our cities really are. And this particular bicycle was outfitted with some instruments. There was a basket on the back, and then these three white poles sticking up in a triangle with an instrument on top that was at head level. It looked like a stack of white plates on top of one another. That measured the air temperature. And they wanted to get the air temperature that we feel when we're walking around. There was another one that looked at the ground to get the ground temperature, which is usually hotter. That's what satellites see. And then the third one that looked at the sun, the amount of sunlight coming in and a GPS and what they let me do and what they do is they ride around the city in just different environments. So, I went into a park. It was nice and cool under the shade that you'd expect, go out into the sun. You feel the temperature go up, but then go from one neighbourhood to another and feel how the temperature changes. And they would measure this very, very accurately and found that, you know, there were two to three degree differences just between one street and another. At the same time, we went to a lab at McGill University with epidemiologist Dr. Scott Weichenthal, and he used another set of instruments to try to get a sense of what the cities are doing as well.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB MCDONALD: So, can you show me one of your sensors?

DR. SCOTT WEICHENTHAL: Yes, I can. So, they're just a small little white box sensor. That's it.

BOB MCDONALD: That's smaller than a cell phone.

DR. SCOTT WEICHENTHAL: It's much smaller than a cell phone. Yeah. So, we have literally 400 of these.

BOB MCDONALD: Wow.

DR. SCOTT WEICHENTHAL: And we put 200 in Montreal and 200 in Toronto.

BOB MCDONALD: Where do you put them?

DR. SCOTT WEICHENTHAL: Everywhere. So, you can see, so this is a hot day in Toronto. And we see that the downtown area is, you know, around 40 degrees on this very hot day because there's not a lot of green space around. And then there are areas that are sort of more green areas, more residential areas sort of north of the city around 32 degrees. And you can see that the sort of areas in the east of Toronto that are sort of bordering on the greenest areas are say, 27 degrees where the downtown is in, you know, the 40s.

RZ: So, what are the researchers going to do with all of this data?

BOB MCDONALD: Well, what they're trying to do is build up maps of cities, highly detailed maps that show where it's cool, where it's hot, and how much the temperature changes from one region to another. So, the bicycle looks at it in real time, like, what's it doing right now? And those sensors that are mounted on telephone poles, people's porches everywhere, you could put them measure over time to see how it changes from night today and throughout the season or over these heat domes. And there was one thing that really surprised me about this. If you have buildings that have no air conditioning in them, and unfortunately these are in lower income areas, they don't cool down at night. So, the next day, if there's another hot day, it keeps getting warmer and warmer. So, the heat actually accumulates over time. So, these are the kind of things they're looking at, so that in the future we can focus on what areas need to be dealt with to try to find solutions.

RZ: You know Laura, all of these stories are very different but all connected of course by rising temperatures. You talk a lot about on your show about not only the changes that we're seeing around climate but solutions. And I'm curious, did you find that there are any solutions for the Chinook salmon?

LAURA LYNCH: Well, obviously, the ultimate solution to everything that all three of us are talking about would be to try to cut back on the emissions. We can also conclude from all of this that there's likely nowhere in the world that isn't going to be affected by rising temperatures. Otherwise, in this particular case, as they try to find scientifically what the problem is, there are the more immediate things that they're doing, which is the ban on fishing. And they're already seeing somewhat of a rise in the return of salmon this year. So, that is a nod to the fact that it's not just climate change. There have been other factors. And then there are other ideas about stopping development around the river so much to try to make sure that the habitats are healthy and also in the ocean as well. So, the work is being done very passionately by especially First Nations, because it is so important to them that the Chinook survive and return in numbers.

RZ: Okay. So, what did you take away from all of this?

BRIAN GOLDMAN: Britnee is at the leading edge of individuals who are already starting to work in hot jobs. In the future, we're going to see many, many more labourers working in extreme heat. And that will inevitably include more people who have diabetes, older workers, people who have chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, smokers. It means we're going to see a lot more heat related illnesses. And Steven Chung, the researcher who brought us into his lab, said, Look for a bump in the incidence of chronic kidney disease. We're already seeing that in workers in places like Dubai where daytime temperatures can top 45°C, over the entire summer and they're working outdoors.

RZ: Okay. And, Bob, finally, you've been covering climate change, of course, for 40 plus years. It feels overwhelming, all of this. And it just seems to be getting worse. So, what gives you a sense of optimism through all of it?

BOB MCDONALD: My very first job at CBC was to write a documentary on climate change in 1977. [RZ: Wow.] And it has been frustrating watching all the predictions come true. However, I do have a sense of optimism because there are solutions out there. And on our program, we look at things like, re-greening the cities, green roofs, planting more trees, opening up creeks that have been covered in pipelines and turning them back into creeks again, making more parks. And I was in Spain this summer as well. And I saw some interesting things there that they're doing to adapt to the heat. They have siestas, of course, but they also hang these big nets over some of the historic streets to cool them down. There are solutions out there. Plus, we have green energy that's coming online with wind and solar and geothermal and tidal and all that. So, I believe we can do this. The solutions are there. We just have to implement them.

RZ: We love your optimism, Bob.

LAURA LYNCH: Can I chime in on Bob's sense of optimism? I'm there too. After now we're into our fifth season of covering this. I am optimistic for the reasons Bob said. There are solutions everywhere and people are working hard.

RZ: Reason to listen to the shows. Thank you so much to all of you. It sounds fascinating.

BOB MCDONALD: It's been fantastic.

RZ: Bob McDonald is the host of Quirks and Quarks. His show is first up at noon this Saturday. Dr. Brian Goldman will bring his show White Coat Black Art to you at 1:30 on Saturday afternoon. And Laura Lynch will host What On Earth this Sunday at 11:00 a.m., all of it on CBC Radio One or wherever you get your podcasts. And that is our program for today.

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RZ: Stay tuned to radio one for Q. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen sitting in today for Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Friday September 6, 2024 Full Transcript

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