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The Current Transcript for September 27, 2024

Host: Rebecca Zandbergen

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

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HILLARY CLINTON: We refused to give up on America. We kept our eyes on the future. Well, my friends, the future is here.

REBECCA ZANDBERGEN: The voice of a woman who has held a prominent place in American politics for decades. Coming up right now in a Canadian exclusive: Matt Galloway's conversation with Hillary Rodham Clinton. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, sitting in for Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

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Why Hillary Clinton is scared of Trump winning again

Guests: Hillary Clinton

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MATT GALLOWAY: It's just over five weeks before the U.S. election, when our neighbours south of the border make a choice between two very different candidates. It is a contest my next guest knows all too well. She says the stakes are higher than ever. She is the former first lady of the United States, former U.S. Secretary of State, and the first woman to be a major party nominee for president of the United States. Hillary Rodham Clinton, thank you for taking time to talk to us. I'm really glad to have the chance to speak with you.

HILLARY CLINTON: I am glad to talk with you, Matt. Thanks for inviting me.

MG: Let's begin with the news of the day. This is looking at one of the most consequential elections in U.S. history. In your book, you say "The prospect of a Trumpy future should scare you." What are you most scared of if Donald Trump wins this election?

HILLARY CLINTON: I'm most scared that, what he says he wants to do and what his supporters and enablers have put forth and have called Project 2025 will be able to be implemented because he will have no guardrails. He will not have even the kind of people he had around him last time who tried to put brakes on some of his proposed illegal and dangerous ideas. And so, I think what we're worried about, Matt, is that he will go further than he already has in denying that he's accountable to anyone for anything. He will be very likely to further undermine the rule of law and our Constitution and act with impunity for whatever he hopes to achieve, including limiting the press, going after people he considers his political opponents and everything else.

MG: Reproductive rights is a huge issue in this election. And it's something that you write about in the book. You talk about meeting survivors of a dictatorship in Romania where women were subjected to examinations to check if they were using contraceptives or if they were pregnant. Is that where you think the United States is heading? It sounds like something out of The Handmaid's Tale.

HILLARY CLINTON: It is out of The Handmaid's Tale and, you know, salute to your fellow Canadian Margaret Atwood for sounding the alarm years ago. But who ever thought it would be on the brink of reality? We have states in our country that have essentially banned abortion, that will prosecute doctors, nurses, hospitals if they try to intervene to save a mother's life, to protect her health, to, you know, provide the medical care that she needs. We have state officials saying things like they want to pass laws prohibiting women from leaving their state to go to a state where they can get appropriate medical care, including abortions. So, this is in the real world right now in half of the United States, as I write in the book, and it's so deeply, distressing because we already have validated two deaths from women who were denied the care they needed because doctors were afraid to proceed to do what medically should have been done. We have a number of women, including those featured in a film I'm supporting called Zurawski v Texas, who suffered, you know, very severe health consequences from being denied health care. So, unfortunately, this is not in the realm of novels. This is what very likely will happen if they have Trump in the White House to give them, you know, the go ahead or basically turn the other way.

MG: And yet, the reality is that tens of millions of Americans will vote for Donald Trump on the 5th of November. The polls show that this is a very, very tight race as a horse race, but also in those swing states. And I just wonder, what do you understand about who those people are that are going to vote for Trump?

HILLARY CLINTON: Well, I think they are in a number of different categories. I think there are people who subscribe to his proposed agenda. They agree with the draconian prohibitions about abortion. They are in support of the huge tax cuts that he wants to give to billionaires and other wealthy people. They actually agree with what they believe he is likely to do. I think there are others who, you know, feel that their needs are being overlooked. That they are not getting ahead economically to the extent that they would prefer, and they think that he is a kind of disrupter who will disrupt the system and enable them to have a better future. There are people who totally agree with his vile language about immigrants and migrants and don't see the irony that he stopped a very comprehensive border reform law from passing because he'd rather have a problem than an issue. And then there are people who are quite in agreement with him on targeting minorities. Women, migrants, the LGBTQ community. It's really a mix of reasons why people show up for him, say they intend to vote for him.

MG: Do you understand where they're coming from? I mean, one of the things that Trump supporters will point to is your comment from 2026 labelling some of them a "Basket of deplorables." And they will say that that's a sign of the polarization that grips the United States right now. And you wrote this week that it was an unfortunate choice of words and bad politics, but also got at an important truth. What did that phrase get at, do you think?

HILLARY CLINTON: It got at the truth that Trump is allied with white supremacists and neo-Nazis, with unrepentant racists, with misogynists. And, you know, I said half of his supporters, and as I write in the book and as it was excerpted in the Washington Post this week, you know, maybe it wasn't the best politics. But here's a guy who has called people names, you know, sunup to sundown. Who assaults people verbally, who encourages his crowds to assault people literally, physically. So, my comment was actually pretty mild. But of course, you know, if people took offence at it, maybe it's because I hit the nail on the head. The people who support him are, as I said earlier, very much in different categories, but there is no doubt that he has allied himself with some of the worst elements and forces in our society. So I, you know, I don't take back what I said about the kinds of people that he not only attracts, but allies himself with. That didn't describe, I didn't mean to describe all of his supporters. And there are people who feel unheard, unseen, that they don't think that their government works for them. That's absolutely appropriate. I'm just sorry that they would be supporting a con man who has little interest in doing anything real to help them.

MG: What would a victory by Kamala Harris mean for you, personally? You've talked about what it would mean for the United States. What would it mean for you personally to see her win, to see her beat him?

HILLARY CLINTON: It would be a great achievement for our country. I've known her a long time. I am doing everything I can to help her get elected. I think she's got the character and the values to be the kind of president that we need. And she says over and over again, she wants to be a president for all the people. And when she defeats Trump, maybe the fever will break. You know, maybe we can begin to find some common ground again. Maybe the Republican Party, which initially tried to resist his, you know, attitude, his policies, his hatred and evoking all of the worst elements of our country-- maybe that fever will break and we'll get back to a Republican Party that you can have legitimate debates about. But as Liz Cheney said, anyone who supports Trump in the Republican Party is supporting a traitor. Supporting someone who tried to overthrow the legitimate process of election in our country. And Kamala Harris, coming from a background as a prosecutor and attorney general, a United States senator, a vice president, is someone who I think will do everything she can to try to repair the damage and to make it clear that we're all in this together.

MG: I noticed that you said when she wins, not if she wins.

HILLARY CLINTON: Yes, I did, deliberately. That's why I'm doing everything I can to make a reality.

MG: There's so much that we could talk about when it comes to what's happening in the United States. But as a former secretary of state, your eyes will be, of course, firmly trained on what's happening around the world as well and the world that we're in right now. We're almost at the one year anniversary of the attack by Hamas on Israel and the subsequent Israel-Hamas war. This week, we have seen an escalation between Israel and Lebanon. It seems to some people like the Middle East is on fire right now. How concerned are you that we are headed for an all out war in the Middle East?

HILLARY CLINTON: Well, I'm very concerned about the spread of the conflict that is currently going on between Israel and Hezbollah and of course, by extension, Hezbollah's patron, Iran. And I fully support the efforts that the United States, France and others are undertaking right now, to try to bring that conflict to an end. Plus, the continuing efforts to try to achieve a ceasefire and the return of the hostages in Gaza. It's very, very hard going because it's not clear if any of the parties who are directly involved are willing to end the conflict to try to come to some diplomatic resolution. But I really appreciate all the efforts, not just by the United States, but, you know, other countries to try to, you know, leverage their influence to help achieve it.

MG: Can you talk a bit more about that? I mean, as former secretary of state, you know what that work takes. Antony Blinken has been shuttling back and forth and back and forth between the United States in the Middle East for months now. Why hasn't he been able to move the needle on this conflict and get that ceasefire, get the de-escalation that he and others have been calling for?

HILLARY CLINTON: Well, I think because of critical moments. Hamas has not wanted to agree to a ceasefire and the return of the hostages or Israel has not agreed with the terms. I mean, this is really hard work that demands a lot of patience. And it's frustrating to be on the outside looking in. But I've been in the middle of that. I've negotiated a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. And it is a very delicate balancing act. I mean, partly because no one really knows what the leader of Hamas, Sinwar actually would agree to. He has not been willing to agree, even when we thought we were on the brink, as people in the administration have said, that there could be a ceasefire and hostage return and then look to the day after. And I know there are lots of very important conversations going on among, you know, many countries in the Middle East who are looking for a way to help rebuild Gaza, to provide security in Gaza. And so, there are a lot of players. It's not just the United States who are pushing and prodding and doing everything they can both to convince Hamas and Israel, and now Hamas, Israel and Hezbollah, to get back to diplomacy and not conflict.

MG: Do you think the United States has pressured Israel enough? There have been calls for the United States to slow down or stop, for example, weapons sales. The U.S. has-- I take your point that there are many other nations involved, but the United States has extraordinary power. Do you think the United States has pushed Israel enough?

HILLARY CLINTON: Well, I think that, you know, that was floated. It didn't seem to have much of an effect when it was some months ago, because I think that Israel believes that it's in an existential struggle for its security. The attack on October 7th was so profoundly traumatic that, you know, there's a deep concern and worry in Israel. And at the end of the day, any nation state is going to pursue its own interests, and Israel remains an ally of the United States, remains a country that we are committed to, committed to its, you know, its security. So, the United States will continue to stand with Israel, but at the same time, do everything it can to exert pressure on the current leadership of Israel. I'm on record as saying that we need different leadership in Israel. The current leadership should be, you know, by its own people held to account for what happened on October 7th. We need different leadership in the Palestinian Authority. So, there's a real partnership for peace. And obviously, we need to eliminate Hamas as a military threat and try to begin to work in a regional way to give the people of Gaza a much better opportunity.

MG: Do you think that-- I mean, you mentioned the leadership of Israel. Is Benjamin Netanyahu an obstacle to peace?

HILLARY CLINTON: Yeah. Yes, of course he is. Of course he is. I mean, you know, that is, you know, clear. He has been, you know, protested against by his own people, who wanted him to do more to get the hostages home. Who wanted him to, you know, pay more attention to the very legitimate needs of the Israeli people. So, yes, I think there's a lot of political turmoil in Israel, but it's a war. People are in the middle of a war. And, you know, you don't change leaders in the middle of a war. It took until the end of the war for the British people to decide they wanted to say thank you very much to Winston Churchill but wanted different leadership. So, this is an extremely complex set of circumstances, and I think it's fair to say that many nations in the region are quietly hoping that Israel can end the threat from Hamas and also the threat from Hezbollah, because they see those two groups as largely reflective of Iranian interests. So, this is not just Israel versus Hamas or Israel versus Hezbollah. You have many, many, interests at work in many nation states who are quietly doing everything they can to try to get to some kind of resolution.

MG: This book that you have just written is kind of a reflection on a very public life and what it's like to have lived that life and where you're at right now. You are, I mean, I think you would admit you're a lightning rod in some ways. People have very strong feelings about you, even now. And I wonder how you understand that response to you?

HILLARY CLINTON: Well, look, I've been on the front lines of advocating for change, advocating for women's rights, standing up to what I think accurately called the vast right-wing conspiracy, you know, some 25 years ago. So, it comes with the territory. I understand that if you're outspoken, especially if you're a, you know, a woman who is willing to speak out against some of the efforts to turn the clock back on women's lives and rights and opportunities, that's going to both engender a reaction and opposition, but also manufacture. Social media platforms now are not just a reflection of actual real people, but of forces at work who are intent upon shaping public opinion in the United States. So, it's a-- it's just a reality of what I see not just happening to me, but to a lot of people in this time of polarization. And it's particularly difficult for women to speak out because of the viral misogyny. The threats that are so ubiquitous on social media. And it's, you know, very concerning to me that you have all this technology based, you know, gender violence, basically with the kind of horrific threats against women in the public eye. I've been there a long time, so perhaps my skin is thicker, and I understand, you know, the stakes of what we are trying to achieve. But I have no regrets about my, you know, my willingness to take on a lot of these issues going back a long time.

MG: Let me just end with something that is different. You just published this book, but you have another book that you released with a Canadian icon, National treasure, former radio broadcaster, here at the CBC: Louise Penny. You wrote a novel with her, and I just wonder what's next? That was a huge success. What happens next in this partnership?

HILLARY CLINTON: We are excited because the book was optioned. We're hoping that a movie or a series is going to be made. We're actively involved in reading drafts of the screenplay. So, we hope the next step is to see our characters on the screen in some form.

MG: And perhaps another novel in the future?

HILLARY CLINTON: Well, we're taking it one step at a time. [laughs] We're both extremely busy. And, you know, Louise has her next book in her series coming out in October. And I think she's wrapping up the next one after that. So, we stay in close touch because we're good friends, not just collaborators. But we're going to hope we get a good screen adaptation out of our book, which was a labour of love.

MG: Hillary Rodham Clinton, glad to have the chance to talk to you. Thank you very much.

HILLARY CLINTON: Thank you. Good to talk to you.

RZ: That was CBC's Canadian exclusive interview with former United States First Lady and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton. Her book, Something Lost, Something Gained: Reflections on Life, Love, and Liberty, is out now. Now, that book title was inspired by Canadian singer Joni Mitchell and one of her best-known songs, this is Both Sides Now.

[Music: 'Both Sides Now' by Joni Mitchell]

RZ: The CBC News is next. Then, as he waits for his trial, music mogul Sean Diddy Combs is sharing a room with crypto mogul Sam Bankman-Fried in a Brooklyn jail. The rapper was indicted on a litany of federal charges last week, including sex trafficking and racketeering. Coming up in six minutes, we'll take a closer look at the case against him. And then: is it time to rethink the idea of parents raising money for our children's classrooms? The head of the largest school district in Manitoba is asking schools to take a recess on fundraising. And we'll make your mouth water talking about poutine. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, and you're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

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The charges against Sean (Diddy) Combs

Guests: Elamin Abdelmahmoud

RZ: I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, and you're listening to The Current. Just a warning: this next story deals with allegations of sexual violence and abuse. It is quite a list. Sex trafficking, forced labour, kidnapping, bribery-- all crimes listed in the indictment against rapper and music mogul Sean Diddy Combs.

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DAMIAN WILLIAMS: The indictment alleges that Combs abused, threatened, and coerced victims to fulfil his sexual desires, protect his reputation and conceal his conduct. As alleged in the indictment to carry out this conduct, Sean Combs led and participated in a racketeering conspiracy that used the business empire he controlled to carry out criminal activity.

RZ: That is U.S. Attorney Damian Williams outlining the federal case in a press conference last week. And that last part is worth noting, alleging Combs used his business empire at Bad Boy Records as a vehicle to carry out criminal activity. Sean Combs has pleaded not guilty to the allegations. Elamin Abdelmahmoud is the host of CBC's Commotion and has been following the case. Hello, Elamin.

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: Good morning, Rebecca.

RZ: For those of us who don't know, catch us up. Who is Sean Diddy Combs?

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: I think it's impossible to tell the story of hip hop without telling the story of Sean Diddy Combs. I mean, Diddy was probably the first mogul when we think about the universe of hip hop. He's someone who has been credited with the discovery of anybody-- not the discovery, but also the creation of the careers of anybody from Biggie Smalls, to Usher. That you can link him to Jennifer Lopez, you can link him to so many of the stars of the 90s. Diddy sort of helped usher their careers forward. And in many ways, like, the way that we think of hip hop now as this global force, Diddy can take some of the credit for that, and also has been taking some of the credit for that for like the last 20 years or so.

RZ: Questions now about his relationships though, with younger artists. People like Usher and Justin Bieber, what do we know about that?

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: So, what we know is Usher went to live with Diddy quite early on in his career. We're talking about like, when Usher was in his teens. And Usher was talking about seeing some things that maybe he shouldn't have seen so early on. And I think, like the assumption was, oh, that's just sort of like some of the body tawdry stuff that happens when you're, you know, hip hop stars are around. There's something to be said about these allegations and the way that we're learning of what actually unfolded that tells us about the scale of what maybe a young Usher might have witnessed or what some of the other young stars who were around Diddy at the time might have witnessed.

RZ: And where we are today, of course, is that Diddy is in jail. He was denied bail. He's facing very serious allegations against him. And there's a lot going on here. His former girlfriend, Cassandra Ventura, the singer 'Cassie' involved with a previous civil lawsuit against him. What role has she had in all of this?

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: In many ways, we're-- the reason we're talking about Diddy now is because Cassie filed a lawsuit in November. Last November, Cassie who had been sort of his off and on long time girlfriend, filed this lawsuit, asking for, I believe it was $30 million. And it was a civil lawsuit saying, you know what? I went through a lot of abuse, sexual abuse and coercion and mental abuse. And she was sort of, trying to sort of say, take Diddy to court for the way that he's held back her career. That lawsuit was settled out of court one day later. But it seems to be that Cassie's lawsuit is a thing that kicked off all of this. In the past year or so, Diddy's image has gone from someone who, sure, some people have known that he's like, had some temper issues. Some people have known that he really likes to party, but nobody really thought of him in the realm of criminality before like this. But Cassie's lawsuit sort of pushed it in a different direction.

RZ: Because I was reading earlier about the allegations against him, and they are long and they go back decades, really. So, what other lawsuits have been filed against him now then?

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: So, I believe at this point, up until this morning, we are up to now 11 different lawsuits. And the lawsuits all sort of seem to be causing around some of the same themes. We have women coming forward saying, Diddy drugged me, and then he and his bodyguard had sex-- raped them. And we have women who say, you know what, he coerced me after filming sex tapes, and he sort of continues to hold onto these tapes. Some of the allegations have the same themes, which has sort of like, led to how big of a story this is, because you just keep hearing the same story over and over, over and over. And I think when Cassie's account first came out, there was some sort of question as to where has this been for the last, you know, ten, 15 years or so? But then, Cassie opens the gate and then, you know, the floodgates come in.

RZ: Lawsuits, yes. But also an indictment against Sean Combs about these supposed what they're calling "freak offs." What is that? And what are we talking about? And what are these charges about?

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: Right. So, Diddy is in federal custody because he's sort of facing these charges of sex trafficking and racketeering and something called transportation for the purposes of prostitution. And all these charges revolved around that term, that idea that you just said. That idea of "freak offs," because these are the parties that he would sort of allegedly host. Prosecutors say he hired sex workers, usually men, and then lured them, lured women into these parties. They allege that he's the one who supplied the drugs and coerced people into taking them. And we're not talking about, like, a party that lasted an evening. You know, in some cases, the prosecutors are talking about sort of an elaborate sexual performance, if you will, that lasts several days. And so, what the allegations are is that the racketeering charge particularly suggests that he's someone who has used up all the power that he's built over the years in order to get away with this, in order to hire people who are willing to go and get sex workers from different states and make them cross state lines, in order to come to these "freak offs." So, the allegations are that he's kind of at the centre of this entire operation.

RZ: The indictment specifically alleges that. That he used his power and influence to do all of this and used his business to carry out these crimes. Why is that so significant?

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: The racketeering charge is an interesting charge, because you usually associate racketeering charges with something like organized crime, right? Like, racketeering involves, you've enlisted other people in carrying out the crime that you're accused of. And what the prosecutors are alleging is that he is someone who's so powerful in the music industry that he's been able to sort of systematize and create an entire elaborate network of how to create these "freak offs," and how to acquire these drugs and how to coerce these people. And so, it's not something that is sort of, ad hoc, if you will. The racketeering charge suggests that this is something that is systemic, that he does quite frequently, and it is like a part of his operation. And I should say, like, the racketeering charge is a charge that carries, like, I think it's a life sentence. I mean, that's an unprecedented sort of thing to level at a rapper.

RZ: You know, apparently, and you would assume, that there are people at these parties. So, is anyone else implicated in all of this?

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: Listen, the internet is abuzz with like, who has been photographed with Diddy? It's really difficult to say. It's really difficult to say with certainty who has been photographed with Diddy at what occasion. But basically, what you've seen is a recurrence of people sharing on social media pictures of anybody from Jay-Z to Prince Harry, who have been photographed with Diddy. None of this suggests that they were at these "freak offs." It just suggests that they were once at a party with Diddy a certain point. And so, that's one that like people really need to be careful with about the idea of like who is implicated, because I should say, like the charges currently don't name anybody else but Diddy. They're all sort of targeted directly at him at the centre of all of this.

RZ: I have seen celebrities commenting on what their alignment is with Diddy. I mean, as you say it's kind of abuzz right now with everyone putting themselves where they need to be in this story.

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: Yeah. And also-- but I think like the idea with these lawsuits sort of accumulating. Again, Cassie filed her lawsuit last November. In the intervening ten months or so, we are now up to 11 different lawsuits. It is a gigantic entertainment story and also a gigantic criminal story. I think there's something really compelling about the size of this thing. And the only thing that people are anticipating is, is he going to take a plea, or is this going to go to trial? Because if it goes to trial, the prosecution is sort of suggesting that they have a list of dozens of witnesses who will be willing to come forward and paint some vivid pictures of these "freak offs."

RZ: These are all allegations at this point. So, what is his lawyer, what is Combs' lawyer saying about all of this?

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: So far, they've denied all the charges. They've said, they've denied all the charges. The one thing that they don't deny, because they can't is, after the Cassie lawsuit came out and Diddy settled, he settled without sort of acknowledging any guilt. Six months later or so it was earlier this summer, CNN publishes video of Diddy dragging and kicking Cassie in a hotel floor. And it's a really gruesome video. It was a very difficult video to watch. Diddy himself released an apology a couple days later, I should say, like, out of all celebrity apologies, and we've seen so many of them, it was not a good one. Like, it was not an apology that suggested this person has any particular, you know, remorse over this. But that's just in my assessment because we've seen so many of those videos. But, they can't deny that one. His lawyer suggested at best, that's a misdemeanour assault. That's a direct quote from the lawyer. But everything else so far, they've denied.

RZ: Okay. In all of this, what comes next for Combs, then? What happens? What should we be watching for in this mess?

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: It kind of all hinges on whether they take some kind of plea or whether they choose to go to trial. Diddy is someone who's chosen to operate a lot in the shadows. It is really, genuinely hard to imagine that he would be willing to take this to trial and have a lot to come out publicly. But everybody's sort of waiting for that because, like, that is the next step in all of this.

RZ: Okay, Elamin. Thank you so much for this.

ELAMIN ABDELMAHMOUD: Thank you for having me.

RZ: Elamin Abdelmahmoud is the host of CBC's Commotion.

[Music: Instrumental]

Should parents have to fundraise for schools?

Guests: Matt Henderson, Annie Kidder

RZ: This is The Current. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen.

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SPEAKER: Oh, it's stressful. It was back-to-back fundraising. There's various book drives. There were various running drives, so it doesn't feel like the fundraising ever stops. As a parent, it gets exhausting.

RZ: It is still early in the school year, and parents are facing that drill of book and bottle drives, bake sales and raffles, all to raise money for their kids' schools. And exhaustion aside, it's also not without controversy.

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VOICE ONE: That's what we do. We get together and we help our children to raise the money they need so we can get better learning and supporting for our kids. So, if you took away the fundraising, there would be nothing.

VOICE TWO: Obviously, it's preferable if we don't have to rely on fundraising, but that's not how it is. So, this school relies on fundraising for things like lunches, hot lunches, and upgrades to our playground. We need to fundraise. It's inequitable that schools in a higher socioeconomic bracket end up having more.

MADDIE: It isn't fair to the people, to the school who is richer because the poor ones need so much money for the kids to have fun. It isn't fair.

VOICE TWO: Yeah. There you go. Good job, Bobo.

INTERVIEWER: And what was your name?

MADDIE: Maddie.

INTERVIEWER: How old are you, Maddie?

MADDIE: Six and three quarters.

RZ: Maddie is going places. Those are some thoughts from school communities in Vancouver and Winnipeg. Matt Henderson is the superintendent of the Winnipeg School division. He believes there's a need for a change in how we think about school fundraising. He is in our Winnipeg studio. Good morning.

MATT HENDERSON: Good morning.

RZ: Matt, why are you asking schools to take a pause on fundraising and use money in their budgets first?

MATT HENDERSON: Well, we're asking people to pause and think. And, you know, we're not banning fundraising or anything like that. But sometimes there's a taken for grantedness about what we do in school. And I believe that, you know, responses from Maddie there and kids and parents in our school division have asked, you know, what is the point of fundraising, whose responsibility is it to fund public schools in a robust way? And so, we're just asking schools and our parent advisory councils just to take, you know, before we engage in a fundraising campaign, let's really think about what the purpose is, what are things that should be funded by public education under that umbrella of public education? And what are things that are not? And so, we're in a good position right now as a board, as a division to really be able to think deeply about this.

RZ: And if the quest is to spend the money in the budget first, I mean, parents don't necessarily know exactly what those budgets look like or have access to spending them, but they do have access to putting 20 bucks and a hat at one point or another. So, how do you find the right balance?

MATT HENDERSON: Well, you know, we, my instructions to our amazing principals is exhaust your budgets. You know, part of my job and the board's job is to advocate that public school is funded properly. And we have open communications with the Minister of Education. There's a new funding formula coming down in Manitoba particularly. So, we're hopeful and optimistic that it's not the same pie, that that pie gets larger. But I think there's a larger concern expressed by some of the parents that we heard, is that sometimes it's just another fundraiser. And people aren't sure why. But I think there's also a point where if we keep sort of bailing out governments and fundraising for things that should be under that umbrella of public education, then governments-- and we've seen this in other jurisdictions-- may want to be able to take that out of their ledger book.

RZ: What kinds of things raise eyebrows for you? What sorts of fundraisers have you seen and raising money for what that you think, that's not on?

MATT HENDERSON: Well, we, you know, when I first came about a year ago, there were lots of parent councils fundraising for playgrounds. And the disparity between schools that, you know, lived in neighbourhoods that had means and those that didn't was pretty significant. And so, we've said to schools and PACs to say, No, you know, that's public education, we'll work with the city of Winnipeg and other, you know, granting organizations to build your playgrounds. Because that does fall under the purview. I had a conversation with a PAC president the other day who said, You know, I really want to fundraise for laptops for the school. And I said, Hey, wait a second. That's under that umbrella of public education. We'll do that. And so, we're having conversations with all sorts of folks to sort of say, you know, if you really want to fundraise for a community event or for hampers or for, even a grade eight farewell, let's have that conversation, because that might be outside of sort of the regular day-to-day operations of school.

RZ: You did say, though, that governments might be getting a pass if fundraising is happening at a level that is not something that they should continue to do. And so, how do you make sure that there is, again, the right balance. I mean, if they're not doing it, they're not doing it.

MATT HENDERSON: Yeah. And part of that is advocacy. Part of that is ensuring that we have a voice, you know, at provincial legislatures to ensure that education remains a public good. When you look at other states, maybe failed states, failed democracies, there are two tiered education systems. There are education systems for those who are rich, and then education systems for everyone else. And that's not how you build robust democracy. So, it's in all of our interest to ensure that schools are properly resourced. But that also, school divisions and people like me are allocating those resources in the most impactful way possible.

RZ: Yeah. And the concern is, as we heard from Maddie, is that there is inequality in what schools are able to have. So, what are some sort of specific examples you have of things that some schools can do or have that other schools cannot because of fundraising?

MATT HENDERSON: Well, and Maddie's bang on there where she said, you know, it isn't fair. And so, you may have schools that have better electronic equipment because the Parent Advisory Council has been able to fundraise that. You may have schools that are able to go on more field trips. And Maddie's right. It's not fair. I'm not trying to diminish the energy and the support in the incredible enthusiasm that parent organizations and parents have for their schools. We want that. But we just need to be really careful about ensuring that our schools are funded by the people of Manitoba in this context.

RZ: Are you getting much pushback from both parents and educators?

MATT HENDERSON: Lots of reactions. And I think this is why it's a really, really good conversation. We're in a really good space to have that conversation. You know, we have some parents who initially were a little bit concerned and would call me and I would call them and then we were able to have a real conversation about, Yeah, no. These things should be funded by public education. Absolutely. You know, we've had, on the other end of the spectrum, we've had some people who sort of who have said, Oh, now are all our schools going to sort of drop to the lowest common denominator? And I've sort of said, Tell me what that means. You know, which child is the lowest common denominator? Which school is the lowest common denominator? And so, there's been some interesting reactions or, you know, there's been some letters to the editor in the Winnipeg Free Press saying, Why should we penalize communities that work harder than others? And so, you know, part of my job is to mitigate those conversations. But I think we have all sorts of folks who are saying, can we just stop the fundraising as well?

RZ: Okay, Matt. Really interesting. Matt Henderson, thank you so much for this.

MATT HENDERSON: Thank you.

RZ: Matt Henderson is the superintendent of the Winnipeg School division. Now, the dilemma of the school fundraiser calls for a wider discussion, according to Annie Kidder. She's the executive director of people for education. She is in Toronto. Good morning.

ANNIE KIDDER: Good morning.

RZ: Annie, what is your reaction when you hear Matt Henderson?

ANNIE KIDDER: I think he's describing this so well, the importance of the conversation, the impact of fundraising and that it's not an either or. It's not, like, totally evil or totally good and that it is important that we're talking about, you know, what things in schools should be funded by government to ensure that all kids have them. And so, it's, you know, trying to have that conversation first. What's essential and important in every single school and should be funded publicly. And then we can talk about what is an extra. So, I think he's described, you know, the perfect conversation that we should be having across the country about this issue, which has, you know, existed for decades in schools.

RZ: He talked about exhausting first the school budgets before you fundraise. I think there's a belief that those budgets are exhausted. No?

ANNIE KIDDER: Well, that could be part of the problem. And again, that goes back to then really defining from, you know, it's a provincial, territorial, jurisdiction, defining at that level, you know, the kind of vision for education and thus what should be there in those budgets. So, not starting with, you know, this is the amount of money you have. What can you squeeze into that? But starting instead with, again, you know what in Manitoba or B.C. or anywhere, what do we think our schools should have? How do we make sure every kid has a right to an equitable, high-quality education? And does that include, you know, good playgrounds? Does it include school libraries that are, you know, stocked well? We have to have that conversation first.

RZ: You recently surveyed thousands of schools in Ontario. What was the most concerning thing you discovered?

ANNIE KIDDER: Well, I think-- we survey all the schools in Ontario every year. And then we looked at demographics, the connection between what's in schools and the socioeconomic status of the neighbourhoods. And I think one of the most telling things we found about fundraising is that schools in high income neighbourhoods raise on average double the amount schools in low-income neighbourhoods do. And also in elementary schools, we could see this incredible range between schools who could raise $0, some reported, and some schools that were raising as much as $200,000. So, you can imagine then, the inequity that creates. And again, we're not saying either fundraising is evil or wrong or should be banned, but we are saying we really, really have to think about what that means to the ideal of public education, which is that it's supposed to be equitable, when we're starting to rely on families who can afford it to kind of augment the budgets.

RZ: Kind of plays into, you often hear, Oh that's a good school, and that's a bad school. I'm sure this doesn't help.

ANNIE KIDDER: Yeah. No, it partly does. And that's what we have to be really, really careful of. Because, I mean, public education is this fabulous asset we have, makes a difference to all of us in the end, it's the next generation of society we're educating there. So, we should be making sure all our schools are quote unquote "Good schools."

RZ: And so, is there a way to make fundraising more equitable?

ANNIE KIDDER: I'm not sure there's a way to make fundraising itself more equitable. Some people have put forward, we should pool our fundraise dollars, or kind of tithe schools. Give ten per cent of your money to a lower income school. But that still just kind of instils, it embeds the idea that we need private money to fund public education. And also, I think for families, like I'm a parent, my kids are grown up now, but you like doing stuff for your kids' school. So, I'm not sure that that really gets to the core of the issue in terms of equity. Trying to make it... trying to make it work without starting with the important conversation that Matt said, which is, what should all schools have?

RZ: What are your concerns ultimately then, when you see private money being relied on in the public school system?

ANNIE KIDDER: Well, I, you know, it's one of the greatest assets we have in Canada. It's not perfect. Lots of things should change. But we have this fabulous thing in Canada, which is that more than 90 per cent of our kids all across the country go to publicly funded schools, and we need to take care of it. So, if we start to... the cracks open when you start to assume that it's going to take parent money to make the school okay to pay for library books or technology, which is one of the things we know people fundraise for, or classroom supplies, or the playground. Because, you know, have we decided it's okay that schools in more well-off areas have way better, you know, playing structures than schools in less well-off areas? So, we have to think about, you know, it may sound esoteric, but we have to think about what it means when we start doing that. And we-- there's the, 'you don't know what it's got until you're gone' kind of part of public education. We have to take care of it. And we have to make sure that it is funded with public money in order to keep that equity there.

RZ: Okay. Annie Kidder, thank you, as always.

ANNIE KIDDER: Thank you very, very much. Nice to talk to you.

RZ: Annie Kidder is executive director of People for Education. We would love to hear from you on this. What is your experience with school fundraising? What would you change? You can email us at thecurrent@cbc.ca.

[Music: Theme]

RZ: Coming up after your regional update: everything you didn't realize you needed to know about the Quebec delicacy, poutine. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Fades up]

How poutine became the iconic Canadian dish

Guests: Justin Giovannetti Lamothe

RZ: I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, and you're listening to The Current. Toques, loonies, maple syrup, Tim Hortons. Those are just some of the things people around the world associate with Canada. Can you think of another big one? I'll give you a hint. It involves hot golden fries, delicious sauce, and fresh squeaky cheese curds. And, well, how do you say it?

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Are you a fan of poutine?

RYAN GOSLING: Yes.

SPEAKER: Am I pronouncing it right?

RYAN GOSLING: You were. I don't like that its name is poutine. I wish it were not poutine. American's say poutine. What are you saying? You're saying?

SPEAKER: I just said the same. I'm so sorry.

RYAN GOSLING: Oh, you don't need to apologize. It is that, unfortunately.

RZ: You heard it from Ryan Gosling. It is poutine. And it is as close as Canada comes to having a national dish. Why do people love it? Let's hear from a couple of customers at the Montreal poutine restaurant La Banquise.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE ONE: It's fairly accessible, right? It's not super pretentious. It kind of highlights the big cheese culture we have in Montreal or Quebec, at least. It's just like a simple meal, and you can do a lot of stuff with it. Whether it's after a night out with some friends, you can always come here and grab some, or whether it's just a quick lunchtime snack. I just like it's, that it's unpretentious and everyone kind of likes a bowl of poutine every now and then.

VOICE TWO: I's like comfort food, I guess. It's very comforting and it just, it feels very Canadian, so I had to try it while I'm visiting Montreal. This is my first Montreal poutine, so I'm expecting it to be mind blowing. Better than the ones in the western provinces.

RZ: Poutine originated in the region of Centre-du-Québec, and the rest is history. Justin Giovannetti Lamothe is a journalist and the author of the new book, Poutine: A Deep Fried Road Trip of Discovery, and he travelled through Centre-du-Québec with his father, Laurent Lamothe over a number of years to learn more about poutine's origin story. And he joins us from our Montreal studio. Justin, hello.

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Hello. Thanks for having me.

RZ: Of course. How much poutine did you eat while researching this book?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: The number just kept growing as I was thinking of the answer to that question, but I think it was about two dozen by the end.

RZ: And was there a favourite?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: That's like choosing your favourite child. You should never do that. They were all fantastic, you know, in different ways. I certainly get into that in the book, but my favourite was just the classics that I had along the way. Just some really solid poutines.

RZ: Yeah. And of course, we'll get into all of that as we get into this interview. But why were you interested in pursuing the origin story of this dish?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Initially, it just came from a general kind of interest because it's such a-- for people of my, you know, people in the 20s and 30s in Quebec, I feel like there's something almost foundational to it that, you know, it's an important part of growing up for various reasons. And so, I was really kind of, I had a curiosity about that. But then the real kind of moment came when I was talking to my dad. You know, there's this moment and I describe it in the book where I was living in Montreal at the time, and it was about to move to Toronto. And my dad and I hadn't had, you know, we didn't speak all that much. And he had come to see me, to see me off. And we, you know, it was a difficult evening. You know, we were talking a lot about Quebec and Canada. And the way he thought I was moving to Canada. And, you know, we're talking about Quebec and we're talking about fathers and sons. And then somehow the conversation led to poutine. And what I discovered that evening, and I hadn't really known before, was that my father had made cheese curds in the part of Quebec where poutine was invented at about the time when poutine was invented. So, when I kind of described him a bit of what I was interested in, he really perked up and he started telling me, you know, about his background and his story in a way that I just, I had never seen him so animated before.

RZ: I have to stop you because you're saying poutine and Ryan Gosling says poutine. So, which is it?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah, I think I'm just being... you know, obviously, if I'm speaking French, I say la poutine, no questions asked. I think I can let people say poutine. That's okay. Sorry, Ryan Gosling, but certainly you're right to correct me. It really should be la poutine.

RZ: Okay. And so, how'd-- you know, because I was reading a little bit about the origin story outside of your book as well. And there has been some writing about, you know, the arguments and the decision on who gets to claim the title. I mean, why did you want to set about this journey as well?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: You're right. I mean, there has been a little bit done in the past about this. You know, there's a lot of Quebec journalists who have at times gone down this rabbit hole, just because it's so much fun to kind of look into this. You know, but I was... my interest, really, if I hadn't had my dad there, I think it would have been very difficult to do that in the same way that people had done it in the past. And he really brought something different to it, you know. He was able to kind of transport me to the 1950s and 1960s in the Centre-du-Québec in a way that, you know, really allowed me to see not just where poutine had been invented, but why it had been invented. You know, why these specific people in this specific place came to the idea.

RZ: Yeah. Why were people interested in mashing up french fries with cheese curds and then throwing a bunch of sauce or gravy on it? Where did this all come from?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Poutine sauce. You got it? [RZ: Yeah.] Lingo right there.

RZ: Right? I know now.

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: You know that region of Centre-du-Québec, if people don't know it, it's on the south shore of the Saint Lawrence River. It's Drummondville, Victoriaville. It's sort of midway between Montreal and Quebec City. And at this point in time, in the 50s and the 60s, you know, it's a very agricultural region. It's, you know, it's-- there's certainly a fair amount of poverty. It's kind of like a hard scrabble place and kind of, you know. The way I like to think about it is they didn't have a lot, but they had a lot of cheese curds. So, cheese curds were absolutely everywhere in this region, and people loved to enjoy it. So, they had cheese curds and they had motorists, you know, they had people going through. And so, what we really get in those first stories about poutine, you know, the oldest one that we really have is about a guy in Warwick who's a trucker. He was in a hurry. He went into a restaurant, he wanted fries. He saw some cheese curds on the counter. He said, mix them up. And the owner said, [speaking french.] You know, that's going to make a big mess. And really that's kind of where it-- from there on, you know, you get the sense of these drivers and these truckers in this region sort of spreading the dish around and spreading these ideas around. And then later on in Drummondville, you get sauce or, you know, gravy. You get sauce added to it. And, you know, that's how you kind of get poutine. So it's-- it was this amazing story because it's not as simple as just pointing the finger to one person or someone else and just saying, you know, you invented it, you invented it. It's really this entire area that kind of helped incubate the dish.

RZ: Yeah. And in Drummondville, you went to that restaurant that has a federal certificate as poutine's inventor, though, on the wall. Right?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah. Le Roy Jucep. So they, you know, they love to make the claim for being first. And I'm not here to argue with them. They've got, they've literally got the certificate on the wall. Although to be clear, the certificate says, very clearly-- and I love that Ottawa has put out a trademark certificate for this-- Le Roy Jucep is the first place where there was a dish made up of fries, cheese curds and sauce, and it was called poutine on the menu. So, you know, you get, there's a lot of checks that they've got there. But certainly, you know, to this day and when I was in there, people were arguing out. Oh, Warwick was first. Drummondville was first. Victoriaville was first. And there was this amazing scene where just, a waitress kind of clears her throat and points the certificate, and everyone stops.

RZ: That's all it takes, really.

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah.

RZ: The interesting thing about curds, is that they often sit on the counter, right? For a period of time that cannot go over 24 hours.

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: That's correct. Yeah.

RZ: And what is it about curds that are so special? I think, you know, a lot of people might think they know what a curd is, but they don't really.

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah, I think I'd be in that category. I learned way more about cheese curds than I ever thought I would. Yeah. Cheese curds are this, they are, you know, someone described it to me as, a cheese curd is a cheddar cheese that got yanked out years too early. You know, these are cheese-- it's a very basic kind of cheese. It's made extremely rapidly. And because it hasn't aged at all, it can only last up to about a day. Twenty four hours, sort of, out on the counter. And so, the reason that cheese curds have become so important to poutine, especially in Quebec, is just because they, well, one, they taste amazing. Let's not, you know, skip over that. But two, they are so moist. They have this, they're so moist. They don't melt when they're in the gravy, hot gravy. And so, that's one of the most important things about poutine is when you have a poutine in Quebec, each of the ingredients kind of stays separate in its own way. You know, the fries are usually these really kind of fat brown fries, you know, dripping in oil. The poutine sauce, you know, is on top of it. And then the curds are in there, and because they're so moist, because they're so fresh, they don't melt. So, you're kind of mixing all three of them in your mouth. And that is a, that's just like a perfect poutine.

RZ: I understand it's a telltale sign of a bad poutine if the cheese is melting.

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah, it's generally not a good sign. You know, what you really want to do is when you bite down, just have those cheese curds just absolutely squeaking in your mouth. Just-- I think I described it once as, you know, like a basketball court full of kids just running back and forth. Like, that's what your mouth should sound like with, when you've got cheese curds in there.

RZ: And how is it that Warwick, one of the places that claims the fame of owning this dish, didn't use gravy?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: That's a great question. Unfortunately, you know, this project came at a good time because a lot of the people who were there right at the beginning have since died. And so, I was lucky to speak to some of the, some of the people who were, a few of the people who are still around, including one waitress who, you know, should write her own book because she's been there since the 60s. You know, working. We don't know. You know, the guy who, in Warwick, has since passed away. And, you know, what was interesting was he had done an interview with the CBC just before he died. And I, you know, I found it in the archives. And even at the end of his life, he was still eating poutine, God bless him. And he was, but he still wasn't quite sold on whether or not he wanted to have the poutine sauce on it. So, you know, he made sure that the chefs at his retirement home knew to leave it on the side.

RZ: Is there something about the time that we see the simplicity of this dish really come to the forefront? You know, Americans are maybe eating and the rest of Canada is eating hot dogs and just regular fries. What is it about the poutine that really takes off at this time?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: I think it's that the cheese curds obviously are something that people are aware of. It's something that is quite local. You know, it's-- every ingredient of poutine can be sourced locally in the Centre-du-Québec. And frankly, throughout Quebec today. So, each ingredient is local in its own way. It's easy to get. And so, you know, that makes sure that people can really-- people see a food that can, you know, reflect things that they're quite comfortable with.

RZ: There's still a lot of pride about this being from Quebec. No one else in the world knows how to make it like Quebec. I think you write about that in the book, and there's a lot of eye rolling about how other people in other regions try to recreate it. Tell us about that, sort of. What does it represent for the people of Quebec?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah. And, you know, that didn't come easily. I mean, one of the things that surprised me while writing this book was, you know, one of the people I interviewed was Ashton LeBlanc. Now, if you've been to Quebec City or you know anyone from Quebec City, you would know that Chez Ashton. You know, people in Quebec City are so proud of it. It's one of their big local chains. And that was really one of the first places that poutine landed outside of the, you know, it's home region. And so, you would think, wow, like Chez Ashton, it must have gone over super well. And you know, when I talked to him, he described the fact that it actually took him years to convince people. He had to give away free samples forever to, you know, convince people that poutine, you know, having a dish with squeaky cheese in it was not only, you know, a great idea, but it was delicious. So, it took a long time, frankly, for poutine to become, you know, beloved throughout Quebec. But you're absolutely right. I mean, people love it today. They see it, you know, as a-- there's a real sense of pride. Especially in its home region where a lot of people just described how it grounds them. Like, they come home from a trip and poutine is the thing that they order. It's the first thing they order to kind of, you know, tell their bodies, you're home again. But there's an absolute pride there. There's an absolute pride throughout Quebec, just as as something, you know, it's something that never, rarely lets you down, and something that, you know, speaks well to Québecers in terms of being, you know, something that's local and something that has come up through word of mouth and has spread from, you know, quite humble origins to being, you know, as you describe it, or, you know, as people talk about it. Like, a dish that is frankly, now, increasingly seen around the world.

RZ: It's not healthy, though. Let's be honest. And you write about, in the book about how high schools have pulled it from the menus at times. And all that kids have to do is walk across the street and go somewhere else to get it. But is, I mean, has there been much talk about this dish-- though so delicious and, you know, the bar which we measure other things-- isn't very good for you?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And you're absolutely right. I mean, there was some kind of, there was a bit of a push back in, I'd say the mid 2010s where there was this real recognition that it's junk food and especially for children. I mean, no one's talking about taking poutine away. You know, it's going to remain on menus. It's going to remain for many restaurants across the province as sort of, frankly, a big driver of business. And many restauranteurs have told me how it's important, how important it is for them. And you would not believe the volume of poutine they sell every day. But absolutely, you know, when it comes to schools, there was a concerted effort to really get it out of cafeterias. And I think that's largely been successful at this point for... you know, a few schools will, you know, they'll have like, a special poutine day. And really make it clear to kids that this should be a treat and not something you eat every single day.

RZ: It is though, when you talk about it being a Quebec dish, but it certainly has made waves across Canada. And other countries will talk about, 'Canada has this weird dish called poutine. Do you know what it is?' But I understand in 2010 it was a big year for poutine in Canada with the Vancouver Winter Olympics?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah, yeah. Once again, another surprise, really speaking to all these restaurants and just saying, the Vancouver Olympics is when it changed. It's when it went from being this kind of, you know, very Québécois dish. This dish that had been, you know, there were speciality restaurants. There was always a place maybe in Vancouver and in Toronto you could get it. But it was seen as something, you know, still harder to get. And then with the 2010 games and poutine being on, you know, American morning shows and being absolutely kind of everywhere, it just took off. And so, all these restaurants, you know, these bigger chains were describing to me how kind of overnight, everyone across the country was eating poutine. And there was this real sense, you know, through the 2010s-- 2011, 2012, 2013-- where there were poutine restaurants opening every week in some parts of the country. It was always in the news. You know, the British media was writing about it, the American media was writing about it. You know, there was this big poutine boom, which, frankly, only really ended in, you know, 2020 with COVID. But, 2010 is really, you know, along with winning gold in hockey, 2010 was also really like the time when poutine became Canada's national dish.

RZ: Barack Obama even had it, I understand, in 2016?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah, it was one of the main dishes at a state dinner at the White House. He was hosting Justin Trudeau.

RZ: That's funny.

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah. I think the main course was halibut or some kind of fish, but they made this extremely fancy poutine for the menu. Yeah, you know, it really, by that point-- once you're on the menu at the White House, I think you've made it.

RZ: Yeah. Other foods have had this kind of heyday as well, right? Where we see this sort of national recognition that this is something that Canadians eat. What else is there like that?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: I think not that many things, actually. Now that I, you know, I'm kind of thinking through it in my head. You know, obviously a lot of nanaimo bars or butter tarts. But even those, you know, they still kind of remain a bit more kind of regional. Right? Like, Ontarians are absolutely proud of their butter tarts. You know, people in B.C. love their nanaimo bars. Maple syrup, if you want to call it a food, you know, obviously is one of the only other things I can think of that, you know, helps define Canada in a culinary way. But there's not that many.

RZ: And internationally, do people still think we're a bit odd for eating this dish? Or is it something that they're excited to try and curious about?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: My experience would be that they are excited to try it and curious about it. But you know, I might be a little biased. But no, honestly, I don't think most people see it as odd. And I mean, lots of places around the world have, you know, loaded fries, kind of disco fries, messy fries, whatever you want to call it. You know, it's not unique to Canada to have the idea of taking french fries and doing something a little weird with it. But one of the things we have over others is: one, you know, I think we've had a pretty good trifecta of three ingredients. And two, it's a fantastic name, you know?

RZ: Yeah. Tell me about that. Where does that come from?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: So, this was also an argument that, you know, that I had to learn more about. But generally, it's a very old kind of Québécois slang word, la poutine. Poutine would really mean kind of a mess. And no one's used it like that in a very long time. And I was kind of struggling with that in the story because all these people were telling me this, but then I would ask, have you ever used the word that way? And everyone would say, Oh, no, not me. But, you know, I remember back in the day. And so, at a certain point I thought, let's look in the National Assembly of Quebec's minutes. Let's go through the archives and actually see if people have used the term this way. And it was-- I don't know if anyone's ever done that before because it's kind of funny, but it was actually stunning. Because you could really track the evolution of the word. You know, in the 1960s and 70s, René Lévesque called a lot of things poutines. You know? He had this point where he talked about like, a liberal poutine and a nationalist [unclear.] You know, it was kind of this... all this language. But, you could actually track over time the word poutine evolving in Quebec by Quebec's lawmakers from being a word, really, to mean, it's a mess, you guys screwed up, to meaning this wonderful food that we all enjoy.

RZ: I want to talk at the end here a little bit about your dad. And your dad worked in a cheese factory and had a lot of insider knowledge that I don't know if you only discovered that day at the table, the kitchen table, when you were having dinner with them that one time. But what did you le arn more about your dad through writing this book?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: I did, yeah. You know, he-- I think this happens with sometimes with a lot of parents. You know, there's a lot of background and history that we don't learn about as children. Sometimes as we get older, maybe it just never really comes up. So yeah, I learned that, you know, that evening and certainly a lot more in the years that followed, that he had worked, you know, not only had he worked at this cheese, this Fromagerie, you know, making cheese, but also he was the guy who, he had like literal milk run, you know, where he would run around central Quebec, going to all the farmers houses and picking up the, all the milk early in the morning. So, it was actually invaluable, frankly, to this book because he used to drive those roads in the 50s and 60s. And now, you know, we were there decades later, and he was pointing to everyone's houses and all these farmhouses and sort of could tell me, you know, what had been and who may have helped play a part. And then, you know, he became a welder later on in life after that and then, you know, he was an industrial welder for most of his working life. And I learned a lot of stuff that had nothing to do with poutine that I didn't know about, you know? Talking to him about, you know, what was it like being a French Canadian who barely spoke English, working in the oil sands in the 1970s? You know, that was-- I had no idea that that was even a conversation that I should have with my dad. But it was kind of interesting to learn, you know, some of the struggles that he faced there. And, so it was, you know, I think one thing I took away from this whole experience is you should spend time with your parents, you know, asking questions and trying to have these conversations with them.

RZ: It's interesting, you talked a little bit about the strained relationship with your father before you wrote this book, and how you were moving to Toronto to Canada, essentially, from Quebec. Now that you've written this book and you've gone on this journey with him, I mean, it's an ode in a sense, to Quebec and to your dad. What does he make of it all?

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Yeah, that's a great question because I-- it's hard to get a straight answer out of him. I think to a certain extent he doesn't quite understand it. You know, when I had initially written a story, for The Globe and Mail years ago before the book, and I had just shown him the story in English and he just said, Oh, it's a great story about poutine. And then I translate it into French. And I learned then and there that my dad's English comprehension isn't as good as I thought. And, you know, he had tears in his eyes and he said, you know, I've never looked at my life through someone else's eyes before. And, you know, it was really moving for him. And I think it'll be, you know, the same with this book. I've tried to translate it for him as best I can, just so that he can kind of enjoy it and, you know, see what's been written. But, you know, I keep telling him, you know, you were there. You know, you saw all of this. But, yeah, I don't know if he quite understands, you know, really what I've written and just the amount of joy that I got out of it and I hope others will as well.

RZ: It's an odyssey, and one for your father as well, as we've learned in the book. Justin Giovannetti Lamothe, thank you so much for speaking with us.

JUSTIN GIOVANNETTI LAMOTHE: Thanks for having me.

RZ: Justin Giovannetti Lamothe is the author of the new book Poutine: A Deep Fried Road Trip of Discovery. He was in Montreal. If you have your own story about a memorable poutine, let us know. You can send us an email to thecurrent@cbc.ca. And that is our program for today. Stay tuned to radio one for Q. Earlier in the program, we played you some Joni Mitchell after Hillary Clinton borrowed some of the lyrics from Both Sides Now for the title of her new book. But another Canadian classic has also been getting a lot of love recently on The Current. Twice this week, guests on our show have referenced the song Anthem by Leonard Cohen. "There's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." We'll leave you with this distinctive Canadian voice today. I'm Rebecca Zandbergen, sitting in for Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and happy Friday.

[Music: 'Anthem' by Leonard Cohen]

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Friday September 27, 2024 Full Transcript

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