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The Current Transcript for December 27, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

JEANNE BEKER: He's like sitting there waxing on about the meaning of life in art. And it was a brilliant interview, I thought. And then all of a sudden, he throws his head back in laughter and his hair catches on fire. And I'm like [surprise].

SUSAN ORMISTON: Jeanne Beker has had a remarkable life and interviewing a member of the legendary rock band The Police, while sitting together in a bathtub is just one slice of that. The host of the TV shows, the NewMusic and Fashion Television, has written a memoir using favorite items from her closet to tell the story of her life and her career. In 30 minutes, Jeanne Beker on the transformative power of fashion, what staying relevant means to her, and why she walked out of an interview with Iggy Pop. Also this morning...

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BILLY BRIDGES: Nothing says you still don't belong here in hockey quite like being assigned a city rink to coach my daughter that is still 100 per cent inaccessible.

SUSAN ORMISTON: Hockey for all. It sounds great. And companies have adopted this phrase as a marketing slogan. The union that represents NHL players says its goal is to make everyone feel welcome in the sport. The reality on and off the ice can be quite different. In an hour, the big barriers still in place before Canada's national sport is truly open to all. But we begin with an attack on Christmas Day. I'm Susan Ormiston, sitting in for Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

How the world’s wars changed in 2024

Guests: Tim Mak, Joshua Keating

[Sounds of alarms and missiles]

SO: In cities across Ukraine, people woke up on Christmas Day to the sounds of drone and missile attacks. Some had spent Christmas Eve in underground shelters. Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, called the attacks inhumane. Russia's military mainly targeted Ukraine's energy infrastructure just as the winter days are getting colder.

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VOICE (THROUGH INTERPRETER): It happened so early in the morning. My sister lives in Kharkiv and said it was very loud. I feel sorry for the city.

VOICE 2 (THROUGH INTERPRETER): I don't have the festive mood, but we hope for victory. We will celebrate holidays later next year. I hope so.

SO: Tim Mak is a journalist and founder and editor of The Counteroffensive, a news publication covering the war in Ukraine. He's in Kiev. Hello.

TIM MAK: Hey there.

SO: How were you and others in Kiev affected by this latest attack?

TIM MAK: Well, you know, it's interesting that it happened on Christmas Day. This is actually the only the second Christmas Day that was celebrated on December 25th. Interestingly enough, Ukraine has tried to disassociate itself with a lot of Russian phenomenon, one of which is Orthodox Christmas, which is usually celebrated on January 6 or 7th, 7th being what it would have been this year. So in many ways, this is, this is a remarkable occasion in which Russia has kind of hit back on a day that is meant to have Ukraine distinguish itself from the Russian world or Russian influence. But in many ways, you know, this day is like so many others that have happened both before and after, which is that was marked by Russian attacks.

SO: What does it feel like in Kiev where you are right now?

TIM MAK: Well, I'll tell you that at this very moment, I am in a apartment without power and heat running because this is the reality of what it is like to live in Ukraine at this particular winter. Russia has targeted energy infrastructure for much of the last year. And what that has meant is fewer hours of power, fewer hours, a heating and the kind of communal suffering for millions of people all across this country as a result of these targeted attacks, which some could argue are a war crime that are meant to collectively punish the civilian population of Ukraine.

SO: What do you think that this latest attack and, of course, many others preceding it, what does it mean as we are coming up incredibly to the three-year mark in this war?

TIM MAK: Well, you know, when I talk to folks who are here in Ukraine, whether it's, you know, my colleagues or soldiers on the front lines, there's this sense of fatigue is almost too weak of a word. It's exhaustion down to the bones, down to the bone marrow, down to red blood cells. It's just, there are some soldiers who have been fighting now, not since the full scale invasion began in 2022, but since the original war started in 2014. And what we're talking about here is a decade, more than a decade of, of war in which Ukraine has been trying to assert its sovereignty and its right to exist against a much larger, much better resourced opponent. And so, it's been a real struggle. And everywhere I turn, everyone is, is looking absolutely obliterated by the events. I just got back from, from visiting a frontline stabilization point, a place where doctors try to stabilize wounded soldiers before evacuating them further away from the frontlines. And the dark rings that I saw under the eyes of those surgeons, and those people who are working day and night to save lives. I can't say I've ever seen that level of exhaustion before.

SO: Tim, it's hard to assess, but what would you say is the momentum now? Which way is the momentum going?

TIM MAK: You know, Russia right now is making a tremendous amount of progress on the front lines. And, you know, an accurate assessment of the battlefield shows that they're probably making more progress in eastern Ukraine now than any other time since the very, very beginning of the full scale invasion where they tried to surround and capture Kiev. So, they're making progress, but they're making progress at the cost of thousands and thousands of soldiers' lives on a near-daily basis. They're really just grinding through their own people in order to take meters or kilometres of territory. And so, they have the kind of tactical momentum. But interestingly enough, I mean, authoritarian societies and authoritarian governments are brittle structures. We saw that with the sudden collapse of the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad. And that these societies, they don't have any sort of release valve. And so, what happens is, even though there's increasing pressure within the society to speak out, to do something or to push back against the government, you don't really hear about it until there is this sudden breakage. Russia is facing many, many kind of strategic or broader view challenges as we go into the new year, not least of which is their financial and economic situation.

SO: We're also hearing from the Russian president about a new hypersonic missile, the Oreshnik. He used it last month. He's threatening to use it again. Remind us, what is this Oreshnik?

TIM MAK: Well, the Oreshnik is a ballistic missile that is nuclear capable. Although there was known thankfully, and there was no nuclear warhead attached to it. What Russia wants to do by firing something like this is to say, look, we can launch a nuclear weapon if we want to. We're merely holding back. And this is a warning to other, other countries who might be interested in supporting Ukraine that you ought not to unless you want to invite nuclear war. Whether that is a credible threat is dubious. But that is certainly the message that Putin wants to send with firing a missile like that.

SO: I mean, he's yeah, he's challenging the U.S., he says, to a missile duel as an experiment. You mentioned the threat. How is it being perceived by the average Ukrainian?

TIM MAK: I don't think that they gave, give it a lot of attention. Whether, whether the destruction comes via drones or missiles or bombs, all of which are used on Ukraine on a daily basis, I don't think it changes their view of their desire to resist Russian occupation, push back against the invaders, and assert their country's sovereignty against another country, seeking to seize it from them through force and violence.

SO: We're coming up, of course, to the new, new old U.S. presidency. Donald Trump weeks away from assuming the presidency again. He's signaled a drop in military support for Ukraine, and talked about a peace deal that could involve Ukraine giving up territory. How much of that is a concern for Zelenskyy and Ukrainians? They've resisted it before.

TIM MAK: Well, it's obvious that it is and should be an, a concern for the Zelenskyy administration. But interestingly enough, you know, the Ukrainians that I've spoken to seem to be taking this with a lot more equanimity than the Canadians and Americans who are supportive of Ukraine that I speak to. And the Ukrainians kind of figure that they can deal with a transactional American president. That they can give things to a president who demands something in return for military aid or support. And, you know, the folks who are pro- Ukraine in Canada and the United States, they want to see American foreign policy guided by values, not trades. But Ukraine seems poised to deal with either. And it has, has been preparing, you know, a set of things that they would, you know, want to provide in exchange for continued American support.

SO: Tim, we've just got half a minute left. It's a very difficult question to ask, but what do you see? What do you forecast for 2025 for Ukraine?

TIM MAK: Well, I think, I think you put your finger on the right question, which is: What, what will the United States policy be towards Ukraine? It seems like although neither Ukraine nor Russia seem urgently interested in negotiations, it's a major American foreign policy goal. And if Trump really makes it a priority, what we'll probably see is at least talking about talking in the first quarter of 2025 with a push towards real negotiations and conversations someplace midyear. Whether this leads to a durable and just peace, that's the big question. Donald Trump seems more interested in a deal of any kind than a good deal for Ukraine. And that's where I'll be looking at, I think most Ukrainians will be looking in the new year.

SO: Tim, stay warm. Thank you.

TIM MAK: Thanks so much.

SO: Tim Mak is a journalist and founder and editor of The Counteroffensive, a news publication covering the war in Ukraine.

SO: It has also been a very turbulent year across the Middle East. Fighting between Israel and Hamas passed a one-year mark in October. More than 45,000 people are estimated to have been killed in the conflict, a majority of whom are in Gaza. The war also spread into Lebanon. And meanwhile, in Syria, thousands have been celebrating the end of the regime of Bashar al-Assad and a 13 year-long civil war. Joshua Keating is a World Senior Correspondent at Vox, covering foreign policy and international conflicts. Good morning, Joshua.

JOSHUA KEATING: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

SO: You know, we were hearing prior to the holiday break, a potential ceasefire. It was coming. And yet, now we're hearing that Hamas and Israel are blaming each other for a failure to conclude talks. How do you assess? Are we close to a ceasefire?

JOSHUA KEATING: This is a pattern we've seen throughout the conflict where talks tend to get pretty close to the finish line. And I think you have to take all these reports of just how close they are with a grain of salt. A lot of times, the two parties are negotiating through the media, so they put out conditions and say the other side is close to agree to them to sort of test the public reaction. But yeah, I mean, there's a fundamental impasse, which is that Hamas is looking to end the war where as, and have all Israeli troops removed from the enclave, whereas Israel wants Hamas completely demanded, completely disbanded, sorry, and out of power and wants to maintain at least some military presence within Gaza. So, so far, they haven't found a way to thread that needle.

SO: What do we know now about the remaining Israeli hostages?

JOSHUA KEATING: Well, there are 96 hostages still held in Gaza, Gaza, on paper at least, but only about 62 of those are assumed by Israel to still be alive. So, the condition of them, we don't have very much information on it publicly. There's probably more that's known by Israeli authorities that hasn't been made public. But yeah, it's, it's a much smaller number than they started out with. And, you know, the longer it takes to reach this impasse, sadly, the more, the more danger those hostages are going to be in.

SO: Indeed, there has been mounting pressure on Israel, particularly in the last several months, to allow more aid into Gaza. But of course, UNWRA, the U.N. agency that serves Palestinians, has been banned from the area that the full ban is supposed to be coming into effect in about 30 days. What is the outlook for aid into Gaza?

JOSHUA KEATING: Well, I mean, it's, the pressure on Israel is continuing internationally. But I think, you know, from their perspective, they're not, things are working out okay for them politically. So, they're, you know, as you mentioned in the intro, we've seen, you know, the Hamas leadership has been completely decimated, including the killing of two senior leaders, Yahya Sinwar and Ismail Haniyeh. The war in Lebanon, from Israel's perspective, went very well. They saw Hezbollah's senior leader decimated. So, despite the international criticism, the protests all over the Middle East and all over the West, the International Criminal Court warrants issued for Prime Minister Netanyahu, Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. These are all real factors. But I think, you know, if you probably ask Israel's senior leadership, they see the war is going fairly well for them. So, that, that indicates their, you know, pressure on things like food deliveries are something they'll take into account, but they, they may not see as pressing as they might if the strategic outlook didn't look, you know, quite so promising for them.

SO: You mentioned international pressure ongoing on Israel's Prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. How much support does he have for this war continuing at this stage?

JOSHUA KEATING: Well, you know, early on, there was a lot of criticism of Netanyahu, especially for the security failures that led to the Hamas attacks of October 7th. And, you know, a lot of public pressure to reach a ceasefire deal to end the war. I think that's changed a little bit. I mean, polls show his popularity is increasing. And I think that's because people have seen the, you know, what this war has done to the senior leadership of Hamas and Hezbollah. And, you know, Netanyahu is more popular now than he was earlier in the war. You know, even as this devastation has grown internationally, the picture is quite different. We've seen groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch use the term genocide in describing what Israel has been doing in Gaza. And so, that kind of gives and the ICC warrants that I mentioned. So, you know, there's more isolation of Israel, particularly in the West. On the other hand, you know, next month we're going to get a new administration in the U.S., which is, you know, Donald Trump's team, in the first Trump administration, was extremely supportive of Israel's strategic goals, including moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, recognizing Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights, and the people that Trump's appointed so far, whether it be, you know, former Governor Mike Huckabee as his ambassador to Israel or the real estate developer Steven Witkoff as his Middle East Envoy. These are people definitely inclined to give Israel the benefit of the doubt and not even apply the sort of limited pressure that the Biden team has.

SO: I'm going to return to that in just one second, but let's turn to Syria. You know, three weeks since the Bashar al-Assad regime collapsed, suddenly, it seemed. What political talks are unfolding right now for the future of Syria?

JOSHUA KEATING: Yeah, so the dominant group in the rebels that took over Syria, ending more than 50 years of rule by the Bashar, by the Assad regime, including both Bashar al-Assad and his father. The dominant factor is this group, HTS, Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham, which as some viewers may know, is a, you know, al-Qaeda, formerly al-Qaeda-affiliated organization, no longer as its leader was until last week, you know, on an FBI most wanted list with a, with a $50 million bounty on his head. But, you know, since they've been taken over, since they've taken over, they've said all the right things about, you know, inclusivity, about avoiding reprisals against former remnants of the regime, about including all ethnic groups in the future of Syria. It's been more of a mixed, mixed picture on the ground. In the past couple of days, we've seen violence between the Alawite sect. This was Assad's, Assad's ethnic group and the areas it controls, and the governing authorities. There have been attacks on police and you know, what they say are reprisals against them by, you know, security forces linked to the new rulers of Syria. So, that's obviously a cause for concern. And then, in the northeast of the country, there's still a sizable portion of Syria controlled by predominantly Kurdish groups who've been working alongside the U.S. in the ongoing fight against ISIS. And, you know, there's concern there about fight between these Kurdish groups and Turkish-controlled proxies. And we've already seen violence which the outgoing Biden administration is trying to control through diplomacy. But, you know, Donald Trump last time in, when he was in office, he talked quite a bit about his desire to remove U.S. troops from northeast Syria. So, I think another danger point we have to watch for is, you know, sort of all-out conflict between Turkish and Kurdish forces in northern Syria.

SO: And as you've signaled, we will be watching for what Trump will do in Syria. In at this stage, it's always a dangerous spot when you have a transition of power, as we're seeing in Syria and across the Middle East. Joshua, thank you so much.

JOSHUA KEATING: Thank you.

SO: Joshua Keating is a world senior correspondent at Vox. He covers foreign policy and international conflicts. The CBC News is next. And then...

SOUNDCLIP

JEANNE BEKER: We are here at the legendary Plaza Hotel in New York City during Fashion Week for Betsey Johnson's.

JOHN ROBERTS: Welcome to the new music. I'm JD Roberts.

JEANNE BEKER: And I'm Jeanne Beker.

JOHN ROBERTS: I understand that you had yourself a couple of wonderful days in New York City with Roger Daltrey, John Entwistle and Kenny Jones of The Who.

JEANNE BEKER: It was pretty wonderful, JD. I wasn't with The Who the whole time I was there.

JOHN ROBERTS: Isn't that what Margaret Trudeau said about the Stones?

JEANNE BEKER: However, Roger Daltrey was...

SO: What great sound. [Music: Theme fading in] The storied career of Canadian style icon Jeanne Beker. From fashion runways to mingling with rock stars and interviews in a bathtub, Jeanne Beker tells the craziest stories and talks about staying relevant as you age. That is coming up in six minutes. So, do stick around. I'm Susan Ormiston, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Jeanne Beker’s life through her wardrobe

Guest: Jeanne Beker

SO: I'm Susan Ormiston, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Obsession by Animotion]

SO: If you watch Canadian television between, well, 1985 and 2012, chances are this sound takes you back. It's the theme song for Fashion Television hosted by Jeanne Beker. Every week, she took viewers to the world's fashion runways to give us a glimpse into the lives of the designers and models behind all the glitz. And before that, she was one of the faces of the groundbreaking TV show, The New Music. Jeanne Beker has been in the public eye for decades, and she has the wardrobe to prove it. In her new memoir, she goes through that wardrobe piece by piece to tell the story of her life, her career, and the people who've meant the most to her along the way. Jeanne Beker's book is called, "Heart on My Sleeve: Stories from a Life Well Worn." Matt Galloway spoke with her this Fall, and began by asking her why she wanted to tell her story through her clothes.

SOUNDCLIP

JEANNE BEKER: Well, obviously, fashion is something that a lot of people associate me with. It's been something I've been having a love affair with since I was a little girl playing with my paper doll cut-outs and sending them off onto these glamorous adventures. And, you know, I had a knockoff Barbie doll called Mitzi. My mother made all her clothes, and my mother was always making clothes for my sister and I growing up. And I just-- fashion was just in my DNA. So, I always held on to certain pieces that I wore to particular adventures perhaps, or had fabulous encounters in. And I got very sentimentally attached to these pieces. And some of them have been thrown out along the way. But a lot of them I've actually held onto, and I have these bits and pieces. And I just think it's a, you know, as the great fashion writer Suzy Menkes once said, clothes and fashion, as much as music, have an eerie echo of time and place. And I really think these pieces bring me back to certain times that were unforgettable in my life.

MG: In the book, you write, right from the very beginning, that you were from a young age, acutely aware of fashion's transformational powers.

JEANNE BEKER: Yeah.

MG: What are those powers? What can fashion do?

JEANNE BEKER: Come now. You must know that Matt. When you put on some fabulous thing, and all of a sudden, you're elevated. You know, for me, anyway. Listen, not to say that fashion can also victimize you in horrible ways, and it does oftentimes. And that's not nice. But when it can lift us up, I think it's just magical. You know, you're not feeling that well about yourself. You put something on, and you automatically feel better. You know, I really noticed that even during my cancer journey, when I wasn't feeling that great about the way I was looking physically because, you know, my hair was going. And I mean, and I put this chic little a newsboy cap on that Canadian milliner David Dunkley had sent me. And I thought, okay, you know, I can rock this. I feel pretty good.

MG: You mentioned your mom. The first item I wanted to start with is I mean, it's not one of your pieces, but it's something of your mom's, this leather satchel. Tell me a little bit about that.

JEANNE BEKER: So, this is a leather satchel that my parents had brought over on the boat with them from Austria. They came to Canada in 1948. They immigrated and they were Holocaust survivors. So, they had lost absolutely everything in the war except, you know, they had a few precious possessions that they accumulated when they'd been living in this DP camp in Austria. And one of the possessions was this worn brown leather satchel that was stuffed with old photographs that somehow people that they had met post-war had salvaged and gave them. Photographs of our families, our grandparents that I never knew, the aunts and uncles and cousins. And as a little kid, you know, I would go to my mother's closet and, you know, open that brown leather satchel. And it was like I was discovering my history and, you know, my roots. And it made me feel like, you know, hey, maybe I'm not so different than a lot of the other kids because I used to have grandparents and I used to have aunts and uncles and cousins, I just never got a chance to meet them. So, that was special. That was the first real accessory, I think, that I became intrigued with. And you know, and it wasn't anything that I wore personally. I would pose in front of the mirror with it feeling very grown up, you know. But anyway, that satchel is no longer around. I don't know whatever happened to it, it finally just dissipated. But I certainly still have all those pictures and that means a lot. It was important to start the book that way because I want people to understand where I'm coming from.

MG: How do you think your mom influenced who you became in the world of fashion? You say in the book that she was superhuman, right?

JEANNE BEKER: Well, I think most girls look up to their moms that way, I would think. You know, the moms that they, you know, have great relationships with. Well, my mom was the kind of person that found light in the darkness. She was the sole survivor of her family. You know, the war broke out when she was like 18 years old and, you know, just lost absolutely everyone. But even though she had some, certain models like, 'expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed.' And, you know, she never wanted us to be hurt. So, she would try to, you know, protect us in a way. But she also really encouraged us to dream and believe. And my father's motto that got them through the war was, 'don't be afraid and never give up.' So, with those for-- if you dream, if you believe, if you're fearless and you're tenacious and you work your butt off, I think you can accomplish just about anything. And that set the tone for me in my life and what I was going to do.

MG: Let's talk about fearlessness. Tell me the story of the yellow bikini with the pom pom.

JEANNE BEKER: The yellow bikini top, it's only a bikini top.

MG: Only the top, which is a photo that was seen so much wider than perhaps people expected.

JEANNE BEKER: The year was 1969, and I was at the first Toronto Pop Festival and Ronnie Hawkins hit the stage singing a really mean version of Hey, Bo Diddley. And I just got up and started, you know, boogieing my brains out. And I was close to the stage. There were 60,000 people in Varsity Stadium, but I was really close to the stage. And Ronnie spotted me, and he pointed to me and was like, Hey, you, come on up. And I was like, Who? Me? And my friend Esther was like, you know, Yeah, this is your big chance! You know, go for it. She's, like, pushing me from behind. So, before I knew what I was being lifted up on the stage by a cop and dancing for Ronnie Hawkins, and it was just a magical, magical time. I mean, now-- fast forward to the next day, and my picture appears on the front page of the Toronto Telegram, the entertainment section.

MG: And the phone rings in your house.

JEANNE BEKER: And the phone rings because somehow, they tracked me down. I was so stupid at the time. I guess I told the guy taking my picture on stage, you know, like he said, What's your name and what's your address? And what's? So, they must have looked me up. And I got a call from Ronnie Hawkins' manager, this guy named Heavy Andrews, who called everybody 'baby blue.' He said, Hey baby blue! We love all the publicity you gave us. You know, come on down to the Hawks nest, which was this place above the Coq d'Or nightclub on Yonge Street. 'Come on down here. We want to meet you.' I went, Oh, okay. And I thought, That's it. My brush with greatness and my moment arrived. I've been discovered. I was so excited to put on a sexy little dress. Went down to the Hawks nest and met Ronnie and Heavy. And Heavy started saying, you know, Listen, we love what you did so much. It was so great, baby blue. We're doing a big rock festival in upstate New York at the end of the summer, and we really want you to come to that and dance for Ronnie. And I went, Okay. You know, this is my chance. I'll be a professional go-go dancer. And then there was a caveat, though, he said, But you know, this time we want you to take off that bikini top and dance topless and we'll drop you out of a helicopter. It'll be-- and I thought, my mother will never be... My mother was totally outraged that, you know, all the women in her [unclear] had seen me in the paper dancing in a bikini top. [MG: The front page of the paper.] Anyway, so she, I knew that that would never go over with my mom. But anyway, Ronnie had promised me at the time, not if I danced for him at this pop festival, which ended up being Woodstock, that he would introduce me to his friend Elvis Presley. You know, that was like another thing to lure me down there. Anyway, all these years later on, in the early days of the new music, we do interview Ronnie, and we interview him in Memphis. We went to the Sun recording studio, and I got to take him to Graceland, and he was in awe of being in Graceland. And I said, But I thought you were like really good buddies with Elvis? And he said, No, we never really got along. And then I realized he was just, that was just all a ruse to get me to go to Woodstock with him.

MG: Why did you wear that to that show? I mean, there has to be-- there has to be something in you that says, You know what, I'm going to wear this thing and something might happen and I might end up on stage.

JEANNE BEKER: Darling, I just-- this sounds so shallow. You're getting to-- what a therapist you are, Matt. You know, I guess I just wanted to be discovered. I wanted to be famous. I was a performer. I wanted to, and I had been acting professionally since the age of 16, so I was never really too shy. I remember every year on my birthday cake when I was a little kid, all I wished for was my own TV show.

MG: Can we talk about The NewMusic? We'll talk about Fashion TV in a moment. But The NewMusic was, well, how would you describe it at the time?

JEANNE BEKER: Edgy, groundbreaking. In-your-face. Smash and grab. Rock n roll. And it really did define a whole style of TV that had not been seen before. And I credit the late, great John Martin who masterminded it. It was his idea to do it and the brilliant Moses Nimer who just sort of let us take the ball and run with it. And here was a show that really went on the road with rock stars, rode around in their smoky tour buses, went backstage with them, hung out in their hotel rooms, hung out in a bathtub with one of them once. That's in the book, you know. And there hadn't been nothing like that before. I mean, the music programs that had been out there to that date were shows like Top of the Pops or Dick Clark's American Bandstand or shows where you would see a musician perform and then some deejay, you kind of figure, would go up to them with a microphone and get a soundbite from them. But we really wanted to hang out with these people and meet them where they lived, and we didn't really know what we were doing, but making it up as we went along.

MG: How did you end up in the bathtub with a member of The Police?

JEANNE BEKER: Okay. Well, what happened was when The Police first came to Toronto in the, it must have been like 1981 or something, I wanted an interview with one of them, and I was given Andy Summers, a brilliant guitarist. And he was a very naughty boy, a really interesting cat. He's just a great guy.

MG: There's a lot that you're not seeing in there but continue on.

JEANNE BEKER: Okay, anyway, so he suggested that we do the interview, that he get into the bathtub to do this interview. And like, I'd just showed up at his hotel room and I thought, You really want to go in the bathtub?

MG: This is like a bathtub with water in it, you're going to have to take off my clothes and get in.

JEANNE BEKER: Okay. He was wearing a T-shirt, a wet T-shirt, but he wasn't wearing anything on the bottom. But he had this little bottle of bubble bath, you know, from the hotel that he sprinkled into the water, you know, thinking that was going to cover up everything. But, you know, a few minutes into the interview, you know, the bubbles dissipated, and his junk was on view. And it was like, Ah! But anyway, interviewed him. It was a memorable moment. It was fabulous. So, then all these years later, maybe like 20 odd years later, I'm hosting fashion television. Andy Summers comes up with, he is a great photographer with a photography book. And I thought, Oh, we cover photography on Fashion Television. Let's get Andy back on my show with this book. So, when we phoned his manager, the manager said, Oh, yeah, yeah. Andy remembers Jeanne. Yeah. So, you know, where do you want to do this interview? And I said, Well, you know, what do you think? And he said, Well, Andy is suggesting getting into the bathtub again. But this time he wants Jeanne to get into the bathtub with him. And I'm like, Ah! I was a 50-something-year-old mother of two at the time. Again, I had to, 'Ma, I'm going to maybe get into a bathtub with a rock star.' [MG: On television.] She was not happy. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And, but I thought, you know what? Like, I got to get in touch with my inner teen and do this. It's just going to be great television. It's the kind of thing you could probably never do now. And I'm sure people like, think about it like, Oh my God, how crass and how terrible that actually. But I don't know. It was the zeitgeist. It was the spirit of the times. It just made sense for me to do it. So, I sucked in my gut, got into the bathtub with him wearing a little string bikini, of course. He also was wearing, you know, underpants or some kind of swimming trunks or something. We sat in the tub and he had, put little votives all around the edge of the tub. And he ordered a couple of Cosmo's from room service and lit up a big fat joint. And he's like sitting there waxing on about the meaning of life and art. And it was a brilliant interview, I thought. And then all of a sudden he throws his head back in laughter and his hair catches on fire. And it was like, you know, Michael Jackson in that Pepsi commercial. And I'm like, I can't believe we didn't get electrocuted. Like, I dropped the microphone. Anyway, if you want to see it, it's on YouTube. You just have to Google "Andy Summers Hair on Fire." It made for a great TV show.

MG: You know what else is on YouTube is an interview that did not go particularly well. This is one of your great interviews as a journalist because you stand up for yourself. This is you on The NewMusic with Iggy Pop.

IGGY POP: So, it's easier for me than for you because I have more talent.

JEANNE BEKER: In certain areas.

IGGY POP: In any area than you could ever dream of.

JEANNE BEKER: How the [censored] do you know that?

IGGY POP: For the same reason that I have more talent than you could ever dream of.

JEANNE BEKER: Oh, okay.

IGGY POP: Yeah.

JEANNE BEKER: Well, that's not much of an answer.

IGGY POP: So I don't, you know, so I don't think that way like you do. Best or worst.

JEANNE BEKER: Oh, I think...

IGGY POP: I think what I want to do or what I don't want to do, that's what's important. It's not what I can do best or worst. Whereas, you know, someone with your imitations would stick to what they do best very carefully.

MG: Jeanne Beker, that's you interviewing Iggy Pop, and shortly thereafter you say, That's a wrap. And that's the end of the interview.

JEANNE BEKER: Yeah, I said, Gee, Iggy. I'm out of here. And he was like, Oh, wow! What do you mean, what did I say? How did I offend you? Listen, a few months before that interview, he was coming on to me like gangbusters at a festival called Heat Wave, you know, so... Or maybe it was The Police Picnic. At one of those festivals. And so, I always, you know, thought, Okay, I have a pretty good relationship with Iggy. I knew he was not the easiest guy to interview. Some of these rock stars, you know, boy, did I ever learn in the trenches what that was all about? I mean, it was a great training ground for me. But, at that time when I first met Iggy, when he was all very nice to me, you know, I was wearing this tight pair of vinyl pants and I, you know, I was looking, you know, pretty hot, I thought. And so, he was interested in me. But what happened during that interview or leading up to that interview was I was at my parents’ house for Friday night dinner, and I was dressed like in these boring, you know, olive green suede trousers with a little red cashmere sweater. And I got a call from John Martin, you know, my NewMusic producer, saying, Okay, Iggy is going to give you an interview, but you've got to rush down to the Danforth Music Hall, be there by midnight because he's just coming off the stage and he’s do the interview. I went, What do you mean? I haven't seen the show, I'm not ready for this. He goes, I don't care. Get right down here right now. So, of course, duty called. Drove down to the Danforth Music Hall and walked into a room that was just all filled with guys and they were all like drinking heavily, you know? And there was Iggy, you know, drinking his Jack Daniels out of a paper cup. And, you know, he looked me up and down and I'm sure he thought, Who's this bourgeoisie chick? You know, he certainly didn't recognize me. And I just launched into this interview with him, and he had said that he had started writing a book. And I made the gross error of saying to him, Is that your first attempt at writing? I just said, you're-- and he said, Attempt?! And the interview really went downhill, and he got really rude. I mean, it was really not nice. And I thought, Yeah, I'm not going to take this. I'm out of here. I said, Okay, Iggy, that's a wrap. And looking back at that video now, I'm so proud of myself for doing that because at the time, you know, I was embarrassed. I felt bad about myself. I thought, you know, this is awful.

MG: But you stood up for yourself.

JEANNE BEKER: But I did stand up. And you know what? I've got to say, I might have done some screwy things in my career and in life, as most people do, but I always have stood up for myself. And I think that's one of the most important things you can do. So, yeah.

MG: Can we talk about Fashion Television? I, in university, and I'm sure it it's because we were very interested in fashion. First year university residents, we would all gather in the room and the television would be on and we would watch Fashion Television. And maybe it had to do with the fact that there were models that were going down the runway in various states of undress. But it meant a lot. I mean, what did that show mean to you? It was a huge, huge sensation, not just here, but put all over the place.

JEANNE BEKER: It was a time in fashion that I don't think will ever be repeated. It was the golden age of fashion. Those years that we did the show, we did that show for 27 years. So, from 1985 to 2012, it was an extraordinary time. No one had covered fashion in that way before. I wasn't a fashion journalist. I wasn't asking questions like, Why beige? Or, you know, What about that silhouette? Or, What was the inspiration? I mean, for me, it was just about the scene. I was an entertainment reporter and that's how I wanted to cover it. And the personalities on the scene, like the iconic figures, the designers and the models and the-- and the, all the people that make up that world was just crazy for me. Much, much more drama than The Roxy could ever have, I thought. You know, this was the next big thing for me. So, I again realized that we were trailblazing by covering fashion in that way because no one had covered it as entertain. You know, a couple of years later, Tim Blanks came along and did Fashion File on the CBC, you know, another great show. But Tim was a bona fide fashion editor. You know, I was an entertainment reporter. You know, we saw it through a different lens.

MG: But you managed to make a connection with the people that you were talking to.

JEANNE BEKER: Because they appreciated that, because I was asking questions that were unexpected, that were different, that I just wanted to know, you know, who these people were as human beings. I wanted to expose the humanity behind the artistry.

MG: One of those larger-than-life people is Karl Lagerfeld. Tell us about-- the garment that you talk about in the book is a black and white dress, and you had this encounter with him where he needed a prop, and you needed to step in and help him.

JEANNE BEKER: Okay. So, two different stories with Karl Lagerfeld there. Yeah. Another one of those designers I just felt I had such a bond with. He was so wonderful. And I you know, he told me he always appreciated my enthusiasm. So, that was nice. I first had my long sit-down interview with him, the first one that I did with him back in 1989 when I was like seven and a half months pregnant and just, you know, about to pop there. And I had gained a ton of weight. And I was sitting in the corner of his couture atelier on the eve of his couture show. I had-- and it was a sweltering hot day in July in Paris. And there was all these chique little girls buzzing around dressed in their little black and white outfits. And there I was, dressed in some drab, olive green maternity outfit, feeling just horrible, like a beached whale. And his assistant felt bad because he'd, Karl had kept us waiting so long, he was variably late for everything. And he said, Okay, would you like to borrow something from Chanel to wear for this interview? I'm going to borrow something from Chanel? I said, I'm never going to fit in anything from Chanel. 'Oh, no, no, no, no. Come with me.' He took me into this back room that was just rife with these racks that were laden with couture creations. Like, dazzling. It just-- so much eye candy. You couldn't believe it. I was gob smacked. And I said, Oh my God, how ironic. I get to try something on from Chanel, but I'm never going to be able to fit into any of this. And we-- rifling through the stuff and all of a sudden, he pulled out this dress. He goes, This could work. Try this. And it was this very boxy cot, a black crepe, gorgeous dress with a white satin chevron running down the middle. So, it would be very slimming with those signature pearl and gold Chanel buttons and a big black organza camellia at the neck. Anyway, I tried this dress on just hoping and praying that somehow, I'd get the buttons done up, and voila, it fit perfectly. So, I came out of the dressing room feeling, you know, talk about the transformational quality that clothing can have, like feeling like fabulous. Did the interview with Karl in that dress and got along so famously with Karl at the end of it, Karl, you know, said, Ah, you look so fabulous. You know, C'est cadeau. I mean, you hear the word cadeau in the fashion world and it's like, you get very excited, right? I was like, a present! So, he gifted me with that dress, and I said, Have you ever designed maternity? He said, Well, I designed a maternity dress once for Jerry Hall, but no, I've never designed maternity. And I thought, Hey, this could be a whole new line for you.

MG: A good company.

JEANNE BEKER: Anyway, it was an incredible moment, you know? And then fast forward again to around about 1995 and I was doing backstage colour commentary for the VH1 Fashion Music Awards, and Karl was there with Claudia Schiffer, and he couldn't find his fans.

MG: Always had a fan.

JEANNE BEKER: He always had a fan. In the early days. He abandoned that fan. But in those days, always had a fan. Some said it was to hide his double chin. Sorry, Karl. Whatever it was for, maybe he didn't want to get too close to people. And he couldn't, and he was like, you know, I can't go on. I don't have the fan. So, I saw some sheets of cardboard that were, I guess they were going to be used as little cue cards or something lying nearby. And I quickly ran over because I thought, I don't want to, we're going live on national TV. And I took a piece of paper and started folding a fan like a little kid does, you know, and I handed it to him, and he was so delighted by that that, you know, it had saved the day and went on and did the interview and everyone was happy.

MG: You repaid his gift. We're going to take a quick break here for your regional update. When we return, more with the Canadian TV legend Jeanne Beker.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Her new book is Heart on My Sleeve. We'll talk about ageing, sickness and health and staying relevant. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stick around.

[Music: Fades up]

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. We're going to return now to our guest, Jeanne Beker. Her new book, Heart On My Sleeve, tells the story of her life and career through the memorable pieces of clothing that she has kept from her own wardrobe. Her career has spanned decades and throughout all that time has managed to keep her finger on the pulse of both fashion and music. You write about this in the book. How do you think about staying relevant after all this time?

JEANNE BEKER: To me, that's very important. Yeah. And I met the love of my life because he used that pickup line on me. You know, listen, I was 63 years old by the time I met him. And I'd been around, and I was at an age when I was concerned about being relevant. I mean, I think we all want to be relevant in some way and somehow.

MG: What does it mean to you?

JEANNE BEKER: To matter. And matter, not to others. It's nothing to do with that, Matt. It's to myself. I want to be able to keep doing the work that I love because I so love doing it. And I want to be able to really find meaning in my life every day. So, I don't want to waste time doing meaningless things. I got The Order of Canada, you know, way back in 2013, 2014. And I remember what was said to me at that ceremony and it was like, you know, Yes, you're getting this little pin, but it's because now it's the symbol that you have to keep reaching higher. Like, it's just not enough. Like, I never wanted to rest on my laurels. Not ever. I never wanted to think that you've arrived. Because once you've arrived, I think it's time to leave. So that's, I guess, what keeps me going still, Matt, at this age, you know? And my wonderful partner, Iain MacInnes, came up to me at the Moonlight gala. We were at the McMichael Gallery and I was there feeling very down about myself. My mom had just died and I didn't have a date. And there I was in a little black dress yet again by myself, and he walked up to me and said, Hi, my name's Iain McInnes and I'm on the foundation board of the McMichael and I just wanted to congratulate you on your career because you've always kept yourself so relevant. And I thought, that's the sexiest thing any guy could say to a woman, especially of a certain age. To me, anyway. And we've been together ever since.

MG: I mean, do you think about ageing in a not just an industry, but in a world where we spend so much time talking about youth and the power of youth. Ageing is something that can either be destabilizing or it can be empowering.

JEANNE BEKER: Listen, we all are presented with the opportunity to choose the way you want to perceive something, you know. So if yeah, if you want to look at it that way and if you want to think, oh yeah, my life's over at a certain age and you know I'm ageing and look in the mirror and what about these lines and wrinkles and the body isn't feeling the way it used to feel, you know, if you want to dwell on that and you choose to think about that, you know, yeah, okay, good luck. That's fine. I choose not to. I choose to look at the light and live in the light. And that's how I got through my cancer journey, because when I was diagnosed a couple of years ago, I had just turned 70 and I was feeling so empowered. Okay, I'm going to write a book about empowerment with age. And all of a sudden I get this diagnosis that I've got breast cancer. And it was like, Aw. And I thought, Okay, am I going to go down those rabbit holes? Am I going to think the worst of it? Am I going to? And I just decided I'm going to leave fear on the table and live in the light because that is how I will enjoy the rest of my life. Even if I only had, God forbid, six months to live. So, ageing-- bring it on. You know, I mean, isn't that the goal? We want to age. Like, what about this, you know, anti-aging? Like what? That's scary.

MG: The opposite is not particularly appealing.

JEANNE BEKER: Exactly.

MG: Tell me about this silver bracelet that that you had. And this is part of the cancer journey.

JEANNE BEKER: Yes. Well, so an ex-boyfriend who had very good taste and got me this fabulous Elsa Peretti silver cuff, like bone cut, like a big one. Really gorgeous. And gave it to me shortly after we started going out, which was, you know, about a year or so after my marriage had broken up. And I was just really not feeling great about myself. But he presented me with this gorgeous bracelet from Tiffany's, this Elsa Peretti cuff. And I put it on and it made me feel like Wonder Woman. I thought, Wow, I guess I am lovable after all. And it made me feel really good. And I wore that bracelet religiously for 25 years. Almost every day for 25 years. That was my Wonder Woman cuff. So, when I was going through my cancer journey at the fabulous Princess Margaret Cancer Centre, which my Temple of Healing, one chemo infusion, I was in one of the chemo pods and I was on a bed that day. Sometimes you just sit in these lounge chairs, but on that particular day I was given a bed. So, I thought, Okay, I'll relax. And I took off my silver cuff and put it on the bed beside me. When I got home, I realized I forgot my silver Wonder Woman cuff. Like, what? But I thought, I'm sure they're going to have it. I'll just phone the nursing station. And the nurses said, Sorry, Jeanne, no, we don't. We didn't see anything like that. I go, What? Well they say, Well, what happens is that we just scoop up the sheets after the patient leaves and throw them in the laundry bin. And we hate to tell you, people have lost dentures that way. And Rolex watches. You'll probably never see that stuff again. And I'm like, OMG! This is like the worst news. How could that be? And then I said, No, I'm going to look at it a whole different way because I have the choice to do that, and I'm going to see it as, perhaps I didn't really need that bracelet anymore to empower me. I was empowered because I was being healed from this cancer. And I had found a new kind of power within myself. And maybe there's someone out there-- because I'm sure the bracelet surfaced somewhere, even in, you know, some laundry bin somewhere. And I just hope that whoever found that bracelet is enjoying it and wearing it with power.

MG: What is next for you? I mean, just having written this book, but also having said a few different times that, I mean, being relevant is important, that keeping moving is important. What happens next for you?

JEANNE BEKER: Well, a wonderful thing is happening. There's a fabulous museum in downtown Calgary called the Glenbow, and a very dear friend of mine, Paul Hardy, he was a brilliant designer based in Calgary. Paul Hardy and I are working on an exhibition when the Glenbow reopens because it's currently undergoing a $200 million renovation. And we're working on a show called Obsession: The Unscripted Life of Jeanne Beker. And it's a retrospective of my career. And because I'm such a packrat, boy, there's going to be a lot of cool stuff in there, including the first radio that my parents bought when they came off the boat, a Bakelite Radio, that was such a fixture in our kitchen all those years growing up listening to morning radio. The first TV set that my dad bought in 1953, you know, that's where I saw Elvis Presley. That's where I saw the Beatles. And all the, of course, clothes and my ballet suit from when I was five years old. And the ephemera, the notes from designers and the backstage passes. And there'll be lots of video from the Bell Media archives, as you can imagine, from The NewMusic or Fashion Television. And admission will always be free to the Glenbow, which is incredible, because the Shaw family donated $37 million. So, that's a really nice thing. And I just hope that this show encourages young people to dream and believe and to be fearless and to be tenacious because that's what I was. And I got to live out a lot of my fantasies that way. I got to make a lot of my dreams come true.

MG: That's what you are, not what you were, Jeanne. You're a force of nature. It's amazing to talk to you. Thank you very much.

JEANNE BEKER: Loved talking to you, Matt. So much.

SO: That force, Jeanne Beker's new memoir is called, "Heart on My Sleeve: Stories from a Life Well Worn." [Music: Theme fading in] Matt Galloway spoke with her in October. Coming up, what will it take for our national sport to truly feel like a game for everyone? I'm Susan Ormiston. You're listening to The Current. We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

And making hockey accessible for all

SO: Hello, I'm Susan Ormiston, and you're listening to The Current. Once you're in, hockey can be such a warm and welcoming sport for many people, that hockey rink is like a second home. For others, though, the barriers to access the game are significant. Feels like their country's national sport is not for them. So where are we falling short and what would it take for everyone to be able to play? Here's Douglas Gelevan in our documentary Hockey for All.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Paralympic sledge hockey champion Billy Bridges is ringside at the Kinnock Arena in Oakville, Ontario. He’s strapped into his sled from the waist down. Practice is over and he's at the bottom of about five steps that lead up from the ice to the locker room. There's no other route. He needs to get up these stairs. In a video that's only 12 seconds long with a Zamboni going in the background, you see Billy. He's using his Olympic level athleticism to pull himself up the stairs with his arms, his legs strapped into the sled or at a stiff 90-degree angle to his body. Each motion up the steps looks like an awkward and difficult manoeuvre, but Billy reaches the top. Later on, he posts a video on social media with a caption.

BILLY BRIDGES: Nothing says you still don't belong here in hockey quite like being assigned a city rink to coach my daughter that is still 100% inaccessible.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Billy was born with spinal bifida, and he's been playing sledge hockey for more than 25 years. So in a way, an inaccessible arena is old hat. But what happened after he put the video online, Billy wasn't expecting. In a flood of negative comments, people called him a whiner and worse. This man, who gave 24 years to Canada's national team, earned a reputation of having one of the hardest one arm slap shots in the history of the game, won multiple world championships and Paralympic gold in 2006, a whiner.

BILLY BRIDGES: It’s sad to see all the comments making fun of me and also just saying like, well, he can do it just fine. So what's he whining about? And that wasn't the point of the post. I wasn't trying to whine. I was just trying to draw awareness of all the hundreds of people that can't do that.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Gold medal or not, that day in the arena and reading the comments on his post afterwards, Billy felt it again. You don't belong here. This game isn't for you.

BILLY BRIDGES: It just sucks that every able-bodied kid can be brought here on a Saturday afternoon for stick and puck and put on skates for the first time and rent skates and have that Canadian experience. And, you know, parasports are already niche enough that getting equipment is so hard to do, never mind like trying to find a place to actually do it. When they're walking into facilities like this, they're instantly met with these barriers that like certainly aren't inviting.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Billy didn't always feel like he didn't belong in hockey. Once you're in as an elite player, he says it can feel like living in a bubble of encouragement and support.

BILLY BRIDGES: When you're in the highest level of hockey in Canada, you certainly start to have an elitist mentality, and it really narrows your vision on what is out there and what people are doing.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: The support in that bubble is something that many of us who played the game can relate to. I grew up playing minor hockey and it was some of the best experiences of my life. My friend's father still has this VHS tape of a game my teammates and I played at the old Coliseum in Quebec City at the Peewee International Tournament in 1997. I still get goosebumps thinking about coming out of the tunnel wearing the colours of the Halifax Mooseheads, the cameras following our every move. It was such a thrill for myself and my teammates. Now we were playing triple a, the highest level in the minor leagues for elite players who were expected to make a career out of hockey. We were given almost everything we needed to achieve our full potential, and that included a lot of ice time. We played at least two games a week. We had at least two additional practices and then played travel tournaments most weekends. As I remember it, all the adults had nothing but the best intentions for us. Although I'd wager that some had delusions of grandeur that their kid was actually going to make it to the NHL. To be fair, one of us did make it. Our high flying forward Andrew played one game for the Columbus Blue Jackets, logging nine minutes and 16 seconds of ice time. While the NHL wasn't the goal for everyone, especially not me, the path to the top level of the sport was there. So more than a quarter century later, in arenas around Canada, has that kind of focus supporting elite players changed? Billy doesn't think so. He stepped out of his elite bubble to coach his daughter Kensi’s team, and now he sees the game with fresh eyes.

BILLY BRIDGES: There's just something about hockey that we get, these absurd times that the sun is just rising when we're done.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: The girls were all under eight years old and had to play games between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m. all season long.

KENSI BRIDGES: Not the greatest, but.

BILLY BRIDGES: I mean, you can certainly see the game of hockey trying to grow its interests and grow its roots, but it can be a very divisive sport and can be a bit of an elitist sport as well. And I feel like that's maybe why those kind of ice times for U8 girls are pushed to these other times, to leave the rink open for all the rep teams.

KENSI BRIDGES: It got Cold a lot.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: And often, as Billy sees it, catering to the elite track players comes at the expense of someone else's access to the sport who might not have those same professional ambitions.

BILLY BRIDGES: For a sport that's trying to draw people in and grow, it's certainly not doing itself any favours.

LINDA MATTEO: Oh my God, it was chaotic this morning, especially handing out the jerseys, socks, like name tags. Yeah. All right. So my name's Linda Matteo, president and founder of Avalanche Kids.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: It's day one of a new hockey season on a sunny Sunday morning at the Brébeuf Arena in Montreal. And while Linda has been run ragged with first day logistics, today's frustrations pale in comparison to the last few months.

LINDA MATTEO: It's the constant struggle. This time has been a constant struggle for us. Because we're not associated to any type of hockey team or hockey league or under Hockey Quebec's banner, we just don't fit in.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Avalanche Kids Hockey is a privately run adapted hockey program for children on the autism spectrum. It's relatively new. This is only its third year, but it fills a gaping need. In Montreal, if you need assistance on the ice, like many autistic children do, you can't play with your local hockey association. And under the provincial authority, Hockey Quebec, there are no adapted hockey programs for kids in the city with neurological disabilities, so privately run programs like Avalanche are the only options. Jennifer Silver is grinning from ear to ear watching her son Matthew on the ice.

JENNIFER SILVER: Well, there never has been a program like this, so he couldn't join a typical hockey school or team and I wasn't able to teach him. So the only recourse is that he doesn't learn. And so to be able to do this is just unbelievable. I was just saying I never thought I would be a hockey mom, you know.

MATTHEW: Matthew is the full name. My nickname is Matty, but I like calling myself Matthew.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Matthew, what did you do today? Can you tell me what you did?

MATTHEW: I was skating pretty well.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Pretty well?

MATTHEW: I skated like a pro. I thought I was going to fail, but I actually did well in the first try.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: With Avalanche, kids like Matthew are getting access to hockey for the first time.

JAYDEN: Oh yeah, I love it.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: You got a good shot.

JAYDEN: Oh yeah. Like this one is cool.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Do you like it?

JAYDEN: Puffy.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Yeah.

JAYDEN: Yeah.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Jayden Chan is eight. He's a first generation Canadian and having so much fun, he didn't want much to do with a journalist.

JAYDEN: Well, could you record somebody else now?

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Yeah.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: He had more patience for me off the ice next to the locker room when I wasn't taking up his precious ice time.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Why did you want to play hockey?

JAYDEN: I liked how my friends played hockey. I really want to do like this stuff. Like I really want to throw the puck into a net and stuff. I really want some experience.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Some experience.

JAYDEN: Of Canada.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: It's right in line with what his mom Jane wants for him too.

JANE: I hope he has fun, the first one, and then he can learn how to listen to his coach And then Play, play, play.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: The sights and sounds of a new hockey season are so familiar to Canadians that many of us can just close our eyes. And if we want to, we can feel that wall of cold air mixed with moisture that hits you the moment you walk into an arena. We can see that early morning mist or fog on the ice surface, hear the sound of skates cutting along the fresh ice and even smell that pungent odour of the locker room. And we may not enjoy that smell, but you have to admit, there is nothing quite like it. And parents like Jennifer Silver want nothing more than for their children to be a part of it too.

JENNIFER SILVER: The fact that he now has access is life changing for him. He's now going to be able to partake in Canada's national sport and even knows that. Like he recognizes that he's now part of something bigger, which makes him feel really special.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Keeping this program alive has been a hard-fought victory. Linda Matteo says every municipality and association that she reached out to for Ice Times sang a similar tune. They'd love to help. They just can't. They need the ice for their kids, and there isn't any extra.

LINDA MATTEO: Everyone is saying they're going to do a lot of things. No one actually puts them into action. I've had multiple conversations with many organizations. I think internally, we have the right idea. I just don't think that they can make it happen. Either it's out of their control or the resources are just not there. But we're simply asking for ice.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: When Linda did finally find an appropriate ice time, she says the rink demanded Avalanche pay 15% more.

LINDA MATTEO: Because we're alone. That was the answer. Because you're private. And the argument was very, very clear cut. If you're not part of an organization, then you're private.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: It doesn't feel like very welcoming.

LINDA MATTEO: No, it does not.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Autistic children had nowhere to play in Montreal, so Linda created a place, but they have to pay more.

LINDA MATTEO: We just feel like they don't care or they don't have any type of empathy towards us or towards the people that are on the ice. I just feel like it's more of they're looking for renters, I guess you can say. I think everyone just needs to like open up their school and they need to start looking at things in a different light. We are playing hockey. We're just playing hockey our way.

MOEZINE HASHAM: Hockey is incredibly exclusive as a sport and there are so many barriers in front of kids that want to play. My name is Moezine Hasham. I'm the executive director and founder of Hockey 4 Youth Foundation.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: I met Moezine outside of a coffee shop in Toronto's East End. Everybody calls him Moe. He's the son of Ugandan immigrants, born and raised in British Columbia, where he played hockey at a competitive level. Hockey was so formative for him. He's now made it his life's work to help kids experience it, especially newcomers to Canada.

MOEZINE HASHAM: The game has so much more it can do to help newcomers and those who are sidelined to enhance their experiences and their connection to the country.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Moe’s goal isn't to turn his players into pros or even play competitively. Hockey 4 Youth provides kids with equipment and funding so they can experience playing hockey in an accepting positive environment, if they can get ice time, that is.

MOEZINE HASHAM: When you have minor hockey organizations that are eating up all the ice time and they're like, well, we need ice time for our u14 triple-a team, they take precedence over our learn to skate, learn to play program. It's like in Toronto, for example, last year, we had a group of men who were slotted in right after our Newcomer Girls program. And what I was told by the municipality was, well, they've had a contract for 20 years. Therefore, they take precedence over your organization which is serving the community.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Moe is talking about an incident last year where girls in his program had a run in with a group of men.

ABRAR: They were very aggressive. They were not being understanding or respectful of anyone there.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Abrar al-Mukhtar was at the arena that day.

ABRAR: I was volunteer coaching, and there was always this group of men that came after us, and it was so clear that they were not interested in whatever we were doing. Like I want to say they hated us, but hate is a strong word, but they did hate us.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Abrar was 12 years old when she moved out of Syria with her family. She had never played sports before coming to Canada and her parents weren't very keen on her playing hockey when she first brought it up. They thought it was too rough for a woman. She took that as a challenge and signed up anyway.

ABRAR: People are always surprised when they see or know that I play hockey because who looks at me on the street and says, she looks like a hockey player. Like no one. Obviously, no one. But it kind of like started conversations. It brought me closer to people and like other friends.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: But on this day, she was confronted with a dark side of the culture and all because of a misunderstanding. They thought they had the ice for a full hour. The men thought that they were going to be able to start 10 minutes early.

ABRAR: They just jumped on the ice and started shooting pucks. And because it's a learn to play program, like the girls, it takes them forever to like skate across the rink and get off the ice. And they were shooting pucks, being aggressive, skating fast. And the girls were freaking out because they did not know what was happening. And honestly, it was very scary because it made us feel like we did not deserve the ice as much as they did. I don't want to say we deserve it more because it's not up to me anyway. But those men, they have opportunities. They have the privilege to go out and they have the resources to go out and find rinks and find ice time somewhere else. But these girls don't have that. If they had approached it differently, maybe we would have communicated it better and we would have agreed on something nicely. But they started the war.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Back at the outdoor cafe, Moe says navigating how to access ice across Canada is complex. And when you zoom out, you can see why. There isn't one system. Hockey Canada says that there's more than 2800 different authorities managing ice. This includes provincial and municipal hockey associations, local governments, school boards and a wide range of private arena owners. Each one has its own way of doing things. From BC to Nova Scotia, what is consistent is the way Moe says he's rejected.

MOEZINE HASHAM: They love the idea. They love the concept. They really want to do it, but they're like, we have no ice to give you. There are certain adults that will ruin things. And it's the Oh, we have a policy. Well, policy was written by your organization and policy can be changed. It's not we create a policy and it never gets redraughted.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: What needs to change culturally to make this more of a welcoming game?

MOEZINE HASHAM: I think we need to stop the professionalization of kids’ hockey, right? I've heard it before. Oh, I want my kid to make it. Forget about fun. We need to win.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: In Nova Scotia, one woman is convinced that there is a better way to manage ice time.

AMY WALSH: I'm Amy Walsh. I'm the CEO of the Future of Hockey Lab.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Amy used to be the executive director of Hockey Nova Scotia. And in that role, she watched as a new girls’ hockey program blossomed in Sydney, Cape Breton.

AMY WALSH: They've had tremendous growth, but then they all of a sudden couldn't get access to ice. So they want to grow more, but they couldn't get access to Ice and they kept running into problems with the grandfather clauses, problems around availability. So it's one of these things when it's everyone's problem, it's nobody's problem.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Amy is gathering data from all areas around Nova Scotia, and she believes that once she has this data, she can use analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize ice use.

AMY WALSH: We have discovered actually in this project that a number of ice surfaces don't even have a booking system. So it's still pen and paper. So unless you know the rink manager's phone number or unless you're friends with the rink manager, it's really hard to get access.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: It's hard to say without seeing all of the data, but it is possible that in some cases, either through policy or unofficially, legacy organizations that mainly manage boys hockey have historical rights to the best ice times. And this means new groups of players, namely girls, are being pushed to the margins as a matter of course. Hockey Canada has acknowledged this is a challenge facing the game. It recently launched a 15-person steering committee looking into what can be done about the barriers women and girls face in the sport, working off the assumption that boys systematically get better ice times than girls. It found girls play hockey on average of 2.4 years less than boys, and the retention rate for girls is lower than boys too. Today, about 108,000 players in Canada are female. That's about one in every five players. Hockey Canada wants to increase that number to 170,000 by 2030. This sounds like a great goal on paper, but in practice, if there's a shortage of ice time today like so many municipalities and rink managers claim, where are all these new players going to play? And at whose expense? Is the way forward to take ice time away from boys so girls can use it instead? Amy says that's the wrong way to think about it.

AMY WALSH: What a lot of people immediately think of is scarcity. It's the fear of what will happen with that data. So I think we need to think of it from an abundance mindset. Everyone should have the opportunity to play this game. And I think for that to occur, we need access to ice.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Oh, nice.

KENSI BRIDGES: Baseball trophy, hockey trophy, hockey trophy.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Wow! Okay.

KENSI BRIDGES: It's heavy. My name is Kensi. I’m eight years old. I love art. My favourite colour is orange.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Kensi Bridges is proud of her trophies and loved her team-mates on the penguins and the Squishmallows. But after two years of hockey, she's now a Hockey Canada statistic. She stopped playing.

KENSI BRIDGES: Well, sometimes in hockey games, you have to get up really early, which I don't like.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: How early?

KENSI BRIDGES: Like six, maybe.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Oh yeah. Was it still like…

KENSI BRIDGES: Oh yeah. Like we've had to wake up when the sun isn't even up yet.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Her dad, Billy, isn't shocked his daughter is done with the sport. He says at times, it felt like the schedule was designed to put pressure on girls to quit.

BILLY BRIDGES: You're either going to suck them in or spit them out. And unfortunately, a lot of those ones that leave the sport because of those reasons at a young age don't tend to come back to it.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Even without hockey, Kensi’s schedule is full. She does girl guides, karate, rock climbing. She's also into the arts. She puts her sports trophies to the side and pulls out her tablet to show me one more of her other interests.

KENSI BRIDGES: I’ll get it up here? Okay.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Oh, cool.

KENSI BRIDGES: So I made up this cartoon where I'm Ramp Girl and he's your Wheel Boy, right? Yeah. And then whenever we're going to Kinnock, if he can't access the place, I can turn into a ramp.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: You made that?

KENSI BRIDGES: Yeah.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Okay, so just describe to me what's happening frame by frame here.

KENSI BRIDGES: So the one that I was holding holds me into this, into a ramp. And then I have to use my wand to hold him up while his wheelchair turns into that.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: That's really cool. What an idea. How creative. Thank you for showing me that.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: It really would be nice if there was a wand out there to address accessibility and equitable access in hockey. But it's not that simple. If anything is going to change, Hockey Canada believes it's going to require some unprecedented coordination between rink managers, municipal governments and hockey associations at all levels. But with more than 2800 boards governing hockey in Canada, the odds of that happening feel long. Remember Billy's post on social media about the Kinnock Arena not being accessible for him on his wheelchair? Well, the city of Oakville did reach out to Billy after seeing it, and they promised changes. That was in 2022. The day we visited in 2024, we couldn't get inside, but we looked in the window and…

BILLY BRIDGES: The stairs are still there.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Billy is still carrying on the fight. It just won't be online.

BILLY BRIDGES: I'm never going to speak up again. That doesn't mean I'm not going to stop trying to make this world more inclusive. And, you know, I'm on the Accessibility Advisory Council for the Ministry of Seniors and Disabled People, and I'm on accessibility committees for certain facilities and trying to make things better. But I don't know if I ever want to use my public platform for that anymore.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: To be clear, Billy doesn't think the competitive side of hockey needs to go away. It's shaped his life and he's grateful for all of it. But…

BILLY BRIDGES: The highest level is so cutthroat that there still needs to be that other side.

DOUGLAS GELEVAN: Billy believes the goal of developing Canada's next star player and winning another gold medal can co-exist with the joy of playing the game and connecting with our community and country. Perhaps we as Canadians have to reflect on why that isn't always happening. But if the next generation can embrace the spirit of Kensi and Ramp Girl, the odds hockey could truly be and feel like a game for everyone might improve.

KENSI BRIDGES: I just like the idea of everything being more accessible so I could be a ramp and then he can go up.

SO: That documentary, Hockey for All, was reported by Douglas Gelevan and produced by the CBC Audio Documentary Unit's Michelle Parise. That's our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. With just a few days left, remarkably, in 2024, we'd like to recognize some of the best music to come out of Canada this year. The Juno Award for Breakthrough Artist of the Year went to, "Talk," a musician from Ottawa. And here he is with, "A Little Bit Happy." I'm Susan Ormiston, sitting in for Matt Galloway. Thank you for listening to The Current.

[Music: A Little Bit Happy by Talk]

Friday, December 27, 2024 Full Transcript

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