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The Current Transcript for December 13, 2024

Host: Matt Galloway

Prologue

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: Cookbook publishing move more toward what's going to give people courage in the kitchen, what's going to help them, what's going to make them feel good about Food, what's going to make their families and friends feel good to eat?

MATT GALLOWAY: It has been a hard year for many people, and maybe you, like me, sought comfort in the kitchen, cooking something delicious. Cookbooks can give you a spot of inspiration for that. And so, in 30 minutes, three food fanatics on the cookbooks they're buying as gifts for themselves and maybe others. From baking guides to Quebec comfort food and why, in a time of Instagram influencers peddling recipes online, there is nothing better than a book. Also this morning, quantum supremacy. Sounds like the next James Bond movie. And maybe, perhaps that's not too far off. Coming up, a supercomputer that experts say will revolutionize everything from drug discoveries to artificial intelligence, and will make your fancy laptop seem like a steam engine. Plus...

[Marmot sounds]

MATT GALLOWAY: Those, of course, the sounds of Vancouver Island marmots. It turns out that one of the world's rarest mammals is making a comeback. Inside the rodent baby boom, coming up in an hour. But we begin with the deal that could change the province of Newfoundland and Labrador forever. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

A transformative energy deal between N.L. and Quebec

Guests: Andrew Furey, David Cochrane

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW FUREY: My friends, I am humbled to deliver some extraordinary news with you all. Today, everything changes for Newfoundland and Labrador.

MG: Andrew Furey made the announcement yesterday. There is a new draft hydro electric deal between Newfoundland and Labrador and Quebec. It replaces a 65-year-old contract between the provinces that generations of Newfoundlanders loathed and fought to change. The old deal fixed the price of power flowing from Churchill Falls to Quebec at a very, very low price. The new memorandum of understanding increases that price 30 fold. And for Quebec, it secures a half century of reliable hydropower. Here's Quebec Premier Francois Legault.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: It's a win-win deal. $200 billion for Andrew. $200 billion for me. It's fair.

MG: Andrew Furey, the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, is on his way to Churchill Falls this morning and he joins us now. Premier Furey, good morning.

ANDREW FUREY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: You said this changes everything.

ANDREW FUREY: It certainly does. It changes everything for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. The cultural and economic significance of this is hard to overstate. For people across the country who may be listening, the deal, as you suggested in the opening, was of secured power for Quebec at a very, very low rate, almost free, 0.2 cent kilowatt hours, not $0.02, $0.2 cents. So, you can imagine that this has been a source of contention in Newfoundland and Labrador from an economic and fiscal perspective, but also a cultural one as well. But yesterday, we set a new path. We set a new path to work together with Quebec to fully recognize the value of the current asset and to work together to develop future assets and to not, not repeat mistakes of the past.

MG: Can I ask you about that cultural significance and how bad the blood was between the two provinces based on what a lot of people in your province thought was a raw deal?

ANDREW FUREY: So, I grew up as a generation, thinking that we would never see the benefits of the Churchill Falls asset, of the Churchill Falls generating facility. And it really led to a, it's a really led to a significant amount of anger, of resentment towards the people of Quebec from Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. And it was directed not just at Hydro-Québec. It was almost personal. It's very emotional. It helped frame many angry debates and in pubs and card games and curling rinks throughout our province over the years. Everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador has some understanding of the lopsided deal. Everybody. You can stop anyone on any street at any moment and ask them about Churchill Falls, and they'll be able to tell you how it has impacted the ec--, the economics and the psyche of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Well, yesterday, that changed. So, not only is this a great moment for Newfoundland and Labrador, it's a good moment for Quebec. It is a good moment for Canada.

MG: This is a deal that was set to expire in 2041. Why would Quebec agree to reopen it now?

ANDREW FUREY: Well, 17 years early is good for us, of course. It allows increasing revenues by 30 times. As you suggested, it's an average of $1 billion a year every year between 2025 and 2041. But for Quebec, it, it gives them certainty. It gives, because they're selling long term contract, power contracts that right now, they're not sure they could provide. For, for reference for people listening, the Churchill Falls generating facility is 15 per cent of Hydro-Quebec's firm capacity. So, this allows them to look at their power situation to, to meet their industrial and domestic demands, export demands with a degree of certainty, which we never had a problem with. We just wanted our fair share. And yesterday, we signed a memorandum of understanding that will allow for Newfoundland and Labrador to get its just and fair share.

MG: Timing, of course, is everything. The Quebec Premier, Francois Legault, is not particularly popular in his province. What do you think that did to his willingness to have a peek at this now?

ANDREW FUREY: I, we both said from day one that politics would have to be set aside in order to negotiate this deal. This has nothing to do with political timelines.

MG: Come on. Let's, hold, hold on a second. This has nothing to do with political timelines? You're facing an election in a year, and he, [ANDREW FUREY: Yeah, no] his political fortunes are in freefall.

ANDREW FUREY: I can't speak to his position, but this has nothing to do with, this is too historic. Matt, I'll push back on the premise of that. This is too historic. This is writing generations of wrong for Newfoundland and Labrador. It's too it's too important to attach political electoral cycle wins or losses to it. This fundamentally changes everything for Newfoundland and Labrador, and it has nothing to do with short-term political wins for me.

MG: It does give you something to campaign on next year in the election, though, does it not?

ANDREW FUREY: I hope everybody campaigns on this. I hope everybody looks at this. I hope everybody understands the value that this will bring to Newfoundland and Labrador. But I want to be perfectly clear: This, it isn't, the motivating factor to get to this deal was not about timing of an electing, of an election cycle.

MG: The annual budget for your province is just over $10 billion. And we heard Francois Legault saying, you know, $200 billion over the course of this could flow toward Newfoundland and Labrador. That's a lot of money. What are you going to do with that money?

ANDREW FUREY: We will be very responsible with this money. We have seen ourselves in surplus situations before, and not invested wisely. Under our government, this government, we created a future fund, for example, to start saving from non-renewable, the revenues received from non-renewable resources for the future. So, right now, we have set up in our province the ability to pay down debt with this money. We have the ability to save for the future with this money, and we have the ability to return it to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians all at the same time. This will mean more hospitals, more roads paved, more nurses, more doctors. The people of Newfoundland and Labrador will feel the benefits of this money today and into the future.

MG: When you say that everything changes, I mean, what's the first thing that you want to see change when that money comes in and starts as you, to your point, it starts the beginning of next year.

ANDREW FUREY: So, certainly we will continue to make the appropriate investments on behalf of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, understanding that everybody is facing cost of living pressures right now. This will allow us to build new hospitals, allow us to modernize the infrastructure across Newfoundland and Labrador. But it will, I'm very excited, and it doesn't sound exciting, but to make investments in that future fund, that will allow us to grow a savings account that hopefully, you know, my children and grandchildren can live off the proceeds of that.

MG: I mean, as you would well know, tens of thousands of Newfoundlanders have left the province. People have gone to work elsewhere, perhaps temporarily or perhaps permanently. Is there, is there the opportunity when you talk about everything changing, that people could be lured back, that they would see hope and opportunity in a province that perhaps they didn't see before?

ANDREW FUREY: 100 per cent. The, the construction of the new developments alone will require tens of thousands of jobs for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. On top of that, we have access to 1500 new megawatts of power, which will allow for industrial development in Labrador in particular, which will also create real, sustainable, future-focused jobs. So, not only does this change everything from the direct economic impact, the direct fiscal impact, the indirect and induced economic benefit to the people of this province and subsequently to their families, is game changing.

MG: You're on your way to Labrador this morning. How are you going to work with the Innu on this and ensure that as this develops and as you mentioned, this is this project, but there's future development as well, that that development works in concert with that community's needs.

ANDREW FUREY: So, we've got a great relationship with the, with the Innu nation. The grand chief was, was there yesterday. They have rightfully secured their, their position with respect to the Churchill River in an existing agreement that sees impacts and revenues considered for them on, whether it's on a redress for with respect to a new contract on the upper Churchill, or their position in development of Go Island. But there is also the potential to work with them on other adjacent developments on the river. And we're certainly willing, wanting to continue conversations with them about how we can partner to truly walk towards the path of economic reconciliation.

MG: What about selling this to the broader public? To your point, there's a lot of bitterness in Newfoundland and Labrador around the legacy of this deal. I was listening to the call-in yesterday, and a man said that in some ways you have Quebec over a barrel. He used saltier language than that, suggestion, in his words, where you've got Quebec by the gonads, they need the power. Is this, this is a better deal, but is it the best deal? And people will want to know that, in part because I'm sure Joey Smallwood in 1969 thought he had a great deal as well.

ANDREW FUREY: Well, this is a, an excellent deal for Newfoundland and Labrador. It is a fair deal. It is a just deal.

MG: But you, you understand, you understand the suspicion that people in your province will have?

ANDREW FUREY: Of course. Of course. And this is a is a good deal. We believe that it maximizes the value for Newfoundland and Labrador, but in particular, it gets rid of the mistakes in the past. So, this is, if we're speaking exclusively about the upper Churchill agreement, this will be market-driven prices that, that when Hydro-Quebec does well, for example, we will do well. That was, that's very different than the first contract, which was fixed at an extremely low rate. So, not only does this have the ability to escalate, this has the ability to escalate as markets escalate. So, if there is a disruption in the energy markets around the world and suddenly, electrons are worth far more than we even predicted they would be, we will share in that benefit.

MG: You said you were humbled to make this announcement. Just finally, why did you use that word?

ANDREW FUREY: Well, it's, it was an emotional day, as you suggested, for everybody across Newfoundland and Labrador, and it was a special moment to be Premier at this particular moment where we were righting the wrongs of the past, but more importantly, setting a path for the future. And you don't get many, many moments like that as a leader of a province. And, and I found it emotionally overwhelming and consequently humbling.

MG: I'm really glad to talk to you about this. Premier, thank you very much for taking time.

ANDREW FUREY: Take care, Matt.

MG: Andrew Furey is the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador.

MG: David Cochrane is the host of CBC's Power and Politics. He is a proud Newfoundlanders. He is in our Ottawa studio. David, good morning.

DAVID COCHRANE: Good morning.

MG: You have covered this story your entire career?

DAVID COCHRANE: Yeah.

MG: What reaction are you hearing from folks back home?

DAVID COCHRANE: I would say the word to describe the reaction is disbelief. But in every sense of that word, you know, sort of, I don't believe it. When they heard the news to 'I don't believe it.' You know, the optimism that this could finally be righted in a way that helps Newfoundland and Labrador. I had a long-time friend text me to say, 'I wish my dad was alive for today.' But then I had a bunch of other people saying, 'How is Quebec screwing us now? What's the catch?' So, that's that skeptical cynicism that is ingrained there after decades of this lopsided deal.

MG: Well, and that speaks to, I mean, the Premier talked about how you can go to a curling rink or a bingo hall or a pub, and people will talk about this. How fraught was that original deal, and what did that do to the psyche of folks in Newfoundland and Labrador?

DAVID COCHRANE: Well, it's kind of, there's been this scar on the psyche of the place, right? I mean, this deal was struck four years before I was born, and was supposed to run long after I retired, you know? And throughout that whole time, you saw Quebec get enormous wealth compared to what Newfoundland and Labrador was able to get. And I remember, you know, Matt, when I was in university, and the fishery collapsed. You know, it's never going to go work in that industry. But it was the cultural and economic spine of the place [MG: Yeah] and it sustained the place and it was gone in a massive way to the point that 10 per cent of the province's population left. And you hold up an economic catastrophe like that against the lost opportunity of a 5000 megawatt, you know, clean energy, economic battery that you couldn't tap into for help. You just saw the tragedy and the struggle and the hardship on one side of that border, and then the prosperity and the opportunity on the other side of the border of, of that border. And the, the imbalance of this arrangement was always part of it. Just the revenue it would have provided with an even marginally higher price of power or with an escalator clause in that power contract. Also, many of the structural financial challenges of the government would have been gone in a second.

MG: And so, if this deal is finalized and again, this is a this is a draft deal, there are still steps that need to be taken to get it, you know, signed and the I's dotted and the T's crossed and what have you. But if that happens, what is the promise for the province? What impact could those billions of dollars have?

DAVID COCHRANE: Well, look, you're right. It's a memorandum of understanding. And, you know, the Premier, I just heard him talking about the cultural importance of this and the healing importance of this, and that, that all matters. But, you know, Ron Hynes in my favorite song from back home wrote, you know, 'You can't eat the air, and you can't drink the sea,' right? So, it's about the money. And if it is as advertised and that is the question that needs to be answered. $1 billion a year on a $10 billion budget where there's a $200 million deficit, it means the end of structural deficits. I mean, I've covered Newfoundland and Labrador budgets where there were surpluses, but they were accidental or they were surprises. It's because, you know, at the height of oil production in the offshore, oil prices surged. And suddenly, what was meant to be, you know, a modest deficit became this windfall surplus. But that was from a non-renewable resource. This is going to come in every year for the next 50 years. And if it is as advertised and if they do it right, the days of deficits in Newfoundland and Labrador should, and I say should, be over for the rest of my life, which is not something I ever thought I would imagine. Like, as you said, off the top, I've covered this story my whole career. I never thought there would be a happy ending. There's the potential for a happy ending now. This is, this is a chance. And it's what they do next that matters.

MG: What does that mean for the day, and I want to come to what they do next. What does that mean for the daily life of people in the province? I mean, the Premier mentioned hospitals and health care. I mean, it's those things that presumably the government would have money to invest in, money that it could have never possibly imagined before.

DAVID COCHRANE: Well, well, not just that. I mean, Newfoundland's debt, its net debt is the highest on a per capita basis in the country by, by like 200 per cent. I think it's twice as high, as the next highest province. And I remember during the height of the pandemic when Dwight Ball was the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, Matt, he wrote a letter to the Prime Minister, saying that they couldn't borrow. Like, they went to the markets to get borrow to finance their operations and the bond markets wouldn't respond and give them an offer because their financial situation was so precarious. So, we're looking at setting up credit lines so that hospitals could function during COVID. This, you know, this doesn't necessarily create jobs, the power purchase agreement like the new developments will. But if you can wipe away a structural deficit, reduce that debt, set money aside, have cash to cash finance your capital construction, your road work, and these things and not deficit and debt finance these things, it just frees up money for stability and investment in the things that really matter and address the socioeconomic challenges of the place.

MG: I mean, that phrase, that phrase 'Have-not province' gets thrown around a lot. That would be wiped off the books, right?

DAVID COCHRANE: Well, yeah, I mean, that's an equalization thing. And kind of poorly understood, like Newfoundland hasn't gotten equalization for a long time because of its oil thing. But yes, you know, it would end that. It would create this sort of prosperous, because there's only 525,000 people. This is the other thing. So, a billion dollars a year goes such a long way. The challenge you're going to have, Matt, is unions, institutions, business groups are all going to want a piece of this, and they've got to resist the temptation with an election coming to just, kind of like, do a bunch of things that are politically popular rather than what needs to be done right. And, you know, Furey is a surgeon. He's an orthopedic surgeon, so he understands the value of stopping the bleeding and fixing the problems. And he needs to do that with the government right now.

MG: Can I ask you about the election? He, he expressed dismay that I would have brought up political timing in this, not just in Newfoundland and Labrador, but in Quebec as well. What do you make of the timing of this with an election coming up?

DAVID COCHRANE: Well, the timing is interesting because of the election, but you got to look at in the long-term picture, the horizon is what really matters. This may be the only window of opportunity they have to get this done because as you said to the Premier, Francois Legault's political fortunes are in freefall. The Parti Quebecois is the frontrunner there. They're already out coming against this, and criticizing it. Can you do a deal with the separatist government? Would the climate even be possible? Would the trust factor be there? Because Legault and Furey have built this very close personal relationship where they kept all of this quiet, and all of this confidential. There was none of the drama and the big dramatic gestures that we've seen in past negotiations, and that's what led to this. The only real public display on this was when Legault went to St. John's, acknowledged the deal was bad, and said there's a chance here for a fresh start, which is what this is. There's no redress for the past, but there's real hope for the present and the future. If he ca--, the, what I asked Furey last night on my show multiple times is whether he will call a snap election on this. He wouldn't say no. He just says there has to be an election in 2025 at some point. How he manages this, whether he looks to be using this purely for his own political advantage, he could swa--, squander some of the goodwill that's out there and they still got to get the commercial deals done. So, don't waste the time being political. Use the time to be productive.

MG: I'll let you go, but could you have imagined something like this? Are you one of those people who thought this is hard to believe?

DAVID COCHRANE: When Legault said in February of 2023, 'The deal is bad. I get it. We can make it better,' I had hope, but I wasn't optimistic. There's some optimism today.

MG: I'm really glad to have the chance to talk to you about this. Thanks for taking time.

DAVID COCHRANE: Thanks, Matt. Appreciate it.

MG: David Cochrane is the host of Power and Politics here on your CBC. The CBC News is up next. And then...

SOUNDCLIP

JONATHAN CHEUNG: There's great crepes with maple syrup. You've got these little dumplings that his grandfather [Music: Theme fading in] used to make that are essentially boiled in maple syrup. But then, there's also Hot Dog Bun French Toast. Yes, please?

MG: It's the weekend. You need some inspiration in the kitchen? It is the season when many of us turn to cookbooks. Gifts for other people, perhaps for yourself. We have a panel of people with their favourite cookbook picks of the year, and they've done the hard work. They've actually not just read the books, but cooked from the books. We will talk about what you might want to cook and what you might want to read, to think about what you want to cook. Coming up in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Cookbooks and kitchen inspiration

Guests: Chris Nuttall-Smith, Lucy Waverman, Jonathan Cheung

MG: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. A perfect cake. The easiest way to do a rack of lamb, the tastiest and most colourful winter salad. We are always looking for a little bit of kitchen inspiration. And cookbooks are still one of the best places to find it. And since now's the time of the year when a lot of us are buying cookbooks, perhaps for other people, perhaps just for ourselves, we have brought together three people to tell us about their favourites from 2024. With me in Toronto are Lucy Waverman, author and food columnist at The Globe and Mail, and Chris Nuttall-Smith, food writer and restaurant critic. And in our Montreal studio, we have Jonathan Cheung, chef and owner of the cookbook store, Appetite for Books. Good morning, everyone.

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: Good morning.

LUCY WAVERMAN: Good morning.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: Good morning.

MG: We will get to and I have some books here piled up and some other people have them stacked around as well. We'll get to your picks, but what are people looking for, Chris, in a cookbook right now?

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: I think people are looking for an escape. Often, people are looking for dishes that are comforting. You know, you also have different audiences. A lot of people ask, you know, my son or my daughter is going off to school, to university or moved out. They need to learn to cook. So, something that's exciting with big, beautiful flavours. And then, of course, there's always people who are committed cooks who spend a lot of time in the kitchen who maybe want a great baking book or, you know, books from a new cuisine that they're keen to try or a way to move their skills forward and, you know, make food that's delicious.

MG: Jonathan, what do you think people are looking for in a cookbook? It's interesting, Chris mentioned comfort. A lot of the books that I've been cooking for, maybe it's just because I have to deal with the news all the time, but a lot of those books are about things that are going to make me feel good.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: Absolutely. Gone are the days of the cookbooks of really high-end restaurants where they're inaccessible. You can't cook it at home. People are really looking for, like you said, comfort. I also think people are looking for really great ways to prepare vegetables.

MG: That's interesting.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: Yeah, and very vegetable forward plant-based stuff. And plant-based doesn't necessarily mean vegetarian or vegan. Just more vegetables. Interesting ways to prepare them. And at the same time, they need ideas on what to do on a Tuesday night.

MG: Lucy, a lot of those ideas might come from Instagram these days. People cooking for, you just have that scowl on your face. What I said. I mean, I've rewired my algorithm, I think, on Instagram, so it just gives me solid recipes instead of, you know, terrible things. What, what do people need cookbooks for?

LUCY WAVERMAN: I think they need them for connection. I think that they buy cookbooks because they feel a connection with the author. It can be that they want a really good baking book, and they pick it up and they look at the pictures, and they look at the stories. Gone are the days where cookbooks are just a bunch of recipes. Today, a cookbook has an identity. It has the identity of the author. And when people look at it and they trust the author or they feel the trust of the author, they're going to buy the book. I find the new crops of cookbooks to be so interesting because I learned so much about the people who write the cookbook.

MG: People have talked about baking a couple of times. Chris, that's what you're going to start us off with, right?

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: I think the baking books this season are fantastic. And I, you know, I wish I could pick 15 of them. There's, you know, one that's really up there at the top of my list is "Sift" by Nicola Lamb. She's a pastry chef from the U.K. And it is like going to pastry school with the coolest instructor you could imagine. There's 120 pages in the front of the book that break down, you know, how does sugar work? What are the different kinds of flours? You know, how do they react to fats, to liquids? How do you adjust texture and colour in your baking? You know, how do you deal with leaveners? It takes you through, I'm reluctant to even use the word science because I think it's a turn-off for a lot of cooks. But it takes you through science in a way that is actually not just illuminating, but entertaining. And then, you know, it's a British baking book. The British do baked products so beautifully. You know, there's, there's a mocha opera cake. You know, there are beautiful, like, Victoria cakes with roasted strawberries. It's just such a great book. It takes you through breads, through pastries and so on.

MG: As Chris was talking about this, Lucy, you're nodding your head.

LUCY WAVERMAN: Well, I had picked Sift as well.

MG: It's a fight. I like this.

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: With Duke it out.

LUCY WAVERMAN: But I gave it to Chris. And the reason, it's similar reasons. It's kind of like learning all the things that you didn't know or whenever you had a failure, you can look back in this book and she explains exactly why and what you do about it. It's one of the most complete baking books that I've, I've ever seen, and people have compared it to the Samin Nosrat book, "Salt, Fat..."

MG: "Acid Heat."

LUCY WAVERMAN: Yeah. And how she explains everything and how she gets you into wanting to really bake.

MG: That's Sift. What was your, you had another pick that was, I mean, sweet-ish. I mean, Nature's Candy, tell us about that.

LUCY WAVERMAN: Okay. So there is a woman, Camilla Wynne. She's from Toronto, and she decided...

[cross-talk]

JONATHAN CHEUNG: Via Montreal.

MG: Via Montreal. Yes, don't shortchange the Montreal [inaudible].

LUCY WAVERMAN: I'm sorry about that.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: No, she lived here for a while, so...

LUCY WAVERMAN: She certainly baked here, I know that. It's a book for the more sophisticated baker. It's called "Nature's Candy." The reason that I picked it is I came home once from Provence years ago just in love with all the gorgeous glassy fruits and the tiny pears that were encased in sugar syrup. I thought, 'I'm going to make this.' And I bought a refractor meter, which measures the amount of sugar in your sugar syrup, which is how you candy fruit. Disaster. [MG: How...?] I couldn't make one thing, and I just sort of threw the whole thing away and said, 'That's it, I'm buying it.' But I never liked buying candied fruit because it's all awful and it's over-sugared. And believe it or not, in some of the cheaper mixes, they use things like turnips instead of fruit. [MG: Goodness.] So along comes Camilla. And I thought, 'Well, this is something I have, I'll look at the book up. Try the things in it. Who knows?' To this point, I've candied pineapple, cherries, orange peel, ginger pears. The book is fantastic.

MG: You brought none of these in.

[cross-talk]

JONATHAN CHEUNG: Your set for the holidays, I feel.

LUCY WAVERMAN: Well, yeah. Set to make Christmas cakes right now. I just was so impressed with how easily her recipes work, the tips that she gives for it. The book, when I was in the bookstore, the bookstore woman told me that this is their largest-selling cookbook this year. I am shocked because I wouldn't have thought that people wanted to do this niche kind of work. But it's so relaxing.

MG: Excellent.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: You know, Camilla is an excellent pastry chef, and this is an extremely unique book. This subject is not available on the market really at all. Maybe some at the extreme professional level. But for an everyday use, it's going to be the one that people are going to go to.

MG: All right. Your pick is a book of food from France's borderlands. What are France's borderlands?

JONATHAN CHEUNG: France spans many borders. This is, it's a book called "Frontiers: The Food of France's Borderland" is written by chef named Alex Jackson. He's based in the U.K. He's the chef at Noble Rot in Soho. This is his third book. This one runs through the food that stretches along the French borders. It's divided by regions. So, for example, the Southwest, which is the stretch of land that borders Spain. So from Montpellier to Biarritz , famous for duck and the use of duck fat. It covers French Catalonia with a lot of Spanish and Catalonian and Arabic and sometimes Italian influences. Think salt, cod, saffron, espelette is big in this part of France. North Africa has a lot of influence. Even though it doesn't really border, there is a lot of North African influence, especially around Marseilles, which is a port city, French Riviera, the Alps. Let's talk about Alsace, which, with its apparent German influence: Sausages, sauerkraut, smoked bacon, beer. This is the type of food that I'm super interested in: Border food. You know, you think what a specific cuisine consists of, but then you go closer to a border, especially when it borders a country with completely different styles of food. And the, and you see the apparent influence from that adjoining country, which creates kind of like a fusion cuisine, yet it is authentic to that region. We think of what France French food is, but then when you start incorporating saffron or what's the difference between Pesto and Pesto? It's essentially the same thing. Yet one is French, and one is Italian. So, you know, you go, we travel through the Alps, you're looking at tart flambé, you're looking at spaetzle, you're looking at all these very different dishes that you don't associate with French food. Yet it is very French.

MG: That's so interesting. Chris, you're going to talk about flour?

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: Yeah, there's another baking book that I am absolutely in love with. And this is a little book. This is a pocket-sized, inexpensive book produced by Good Egg, bookstore and publisher in Kensington Market. It's called "Flour is Flavour," and it's by a baker named Dawn Woodward. She runs a company called Evelyn's Crackers, and it is all about using whole grain, kind of less typical, less-known flours like emmer or spelt or barley or kamut or red, red fife. She typically fresh mills them. And this is, and you know, I think a lot of people think of that and they think kind of, 'Oh, this is crunchy granola. It's not that interesting.' She does the most beautiful breads. There's an Estonian rye bread, but, you know, she'll do shortbread. She'll do biscotti. There's a whole grain brioche that just folds in the most incredible techniques that's doable. Her argument is that different flours bring incredible flavour to food, and they do. You know, I made that ginger snaps out of this book, and she uses rye and buckwheat flowers in them as the base. And so, you know, you get the ginger, you get the pop of black pepper, but you get such a gorgeous kind of base flavour from the flowers. I made her Estonian rye as this dark, gorgeous rye. The recipes are fantastic. And, you know, it's kind of flown under the radar so far. But I think for any baker who wants to take their baking someplace really interesting in a way that's accessible, "Flour is Flavour" is just a great, great book.

MG: And will get you thinking differently about flour?

JONATHAN CHEUNG: Absolutely. I also believe that you can, from what I heard, you can get it at Appetite for Books in Montreal.

MG: Some sources, sources say it's available there as well?

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: But it's not from a big publisher. [MG: No, it's not.] You know, it's this little kind of under-the-radar publication. I can't recommend it highly enough. It's been such a wonderful addition.

LUCY WAVERMAN: She is a fabulous baker. [MG: Great?] She really is.

MG: I have it right here. I might keep it. Lucy, tell us about... The next one is, what? From an Australian writer?

LUCY WAVERMAN: Well, the next one is by a woman called Nagi Maehashi. And I had never heard of her up until about maybe a year ago when I was searching for a recipe. And I found that she had a blog. And her blog was really interesting because her recipes were super tested, and she had all sorts of variations, and 'If you can't do this, and if you have to do that,' and I thought, 'This is pretty interesting blog' and she does a lot of Asian food. This is a book for people who want to up, sort of up their game a little bit. They're not like great cooks, but they want to do something that would be a little bit more interesting, a little bit more exciting, but not take the kind of work that you would have to put in. if you got one of the more sophisticated books.

MG: I mean, the title kind of says it all, "Delicious tonight: Foolproof Recipes for Easy Dinners."

LUCY WAVERMAN: Well, she has a blog called "RecipeTin Eats." And people are always saying to me, 'What's RecipeTin Eats?' Well, recipe tins in Australia and Britain were where you kept your recipes and so everybody had a little recipe tin in their kitchen. She's a former accountant. I thought this was really interesting. She's a former chartered accountant, so that you know that her, she has a tremendous background in accuracy because of that. She got just fed up with figures, and decided to go into cooking. And she'd always been a great cook. She answers every question that you can think of as a sidebar on the recipe.

[cross-talk]

MG: People are looking for, like foolproof recipes. They want to think that they can't screw this up, right?

LUCY WAVERMAN: They are foolproof...

LUCY WAVERMAN: They cannot screw these up. Plus, each recipe has a video, and you just point your phone at the QR code and the video pops up. So, for people who even feel a bit insecure in the kitchen, this gives them the security of being able to see what they can do. And the recipes are good, they're tasty, they're interesting. I have never had a failure of a recipe with her ever. Which is why I think this is a great book to be giving students, to be giving people who want to have a bit more fun in the kitchen. She has quite a bit of Asian food in add--, she herself is Asian. She has quite a bit of Asian food. The ingredients are not expensive.

MG: Music to the ears of many people who are listening. Jonathan, wave the flag from Montreal. Tell us about the place of Chuck Hughes in your city.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: I'm a big fan of Chuck. Chuck Hughes is such a great guy. And his new book, "Chuck's Home Cooking," his personality really comes through in this book. It's been about 10 years since he's written a cookbook, mainly because he's had kids. And this one is a, is a big departure from his other two books, "The Garde Manger," and "Chuck's Day Off," "Chuck's Home Cooking: Family Favourite Recipes From My Kitchen to Yours." This is what he cooks at home for his kids, with his kids. I feel like the common theme is just very comforting. [MG: Yeah.] You know, spicy maple syrup vinaigrette on Brussels sprouts. Really nice and simple. This is not an overly difficult book. This is not a restaurant cookbook. This is stuff that you really do want to cook at home. Some great interesting dishes, one that we made when we did a book signing with him, we made this really amazing risotto. But instead of using rice, we used potatoes, which was really interesting and super easy. Very comforting. One of my actually favourite chapters in this book is The Cabane à sucre, or the Sugar Shack chapter, where he really kind of intertwines his, his Quebec heritage or French Canadian heritage into this. There's great crepes with, with Maple Syrup. You've got these little dumplings that his grandfather used to make that are essentially boiled in maple syrup. Yes, very sweet. I totally get it. But then there's also Hot Dog Bun French Toast. Yes, please? I want fried chicken with hot pepper maple glaze. Yes, absolutely.

MG: He won my heart right from the beginning when he said unsalted butter is a crime in the book. I appreciate that. Speaking of personality, Chris, Matty Matheson, superstar restaurant owner. And I mean, people know him from the bear as well. And he has this new cookbook out. I mean, again, if we're talking about comfort, this feels like home cooking when you look through this book.

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: This is home cooking. The book is called "Soups, Salads and Sandwiches." And you think of those three kind of toppings, and you think, 'This is all easy.' The book, much like its author, is big, it's loud, it's brash, it's a little ridiculous. But God, it's so lovable. Like, the recipes are fantastic. This is a book, I would say, for home cooks who know their way around the kitchen, who have time, who like projects. It's a mix of very, very simple recipes. You know, there's one my son was looking at. He does strawberries and whipping cream and miracle whip on milk bread or wonder bread, if you'd rather, you know? So, it's this simple kind of Japanese strawberry sandwich, like he does a lasagna submarine sandwich with a prep time of two days because you make the lasagna first. So, you know, it's this. Some people will call it stunt cooking. You know, other people will get super excited about it. But what it has at its core is an incredible sense of taste. There's a salad. It's, it's gone into heavy rotation in our house. It's, you know, white beans, it's capers, it's raisins. It's got these Sicilian flavors, really good anchovies. Not like pongy pizza anchovies that you pick off your pizza, pizza. But beautiful anchovies. It's a really well-tested, beautiful book full of fantastic ideas. You can try to resist it, but, you know, it grabs you.

MG: There's a lot of heart and...

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: There's so much heart you want to cook.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: I want to make note. Sorry. Can I say something about this book?

MG: Yes.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: It's, it's, I want to say it's probably his best book. [CHRIS NUTTAL-SMITH: Yes.] Because a lot of the dishes in there, you can flip to most pages and be like, 'I want to make that.'

MG: Let's cram in a couple more while we're running out of time. Lucy, you have one final pick. This is, tell me a little bit about this.

LUCY WAVERMAN: I think this is a very important book is called [inaudible], which is the word used by Indians from the diaspora to describe all things American. And can we talk a little bit about third-culture cooking?

MG: Yes. Which is, what is that?

LUCY WAVERMAN: Third-culture cooking are parents who come from India, or they could come from any country and they can't find the ingredients that they want to make, whatever it is they want. So, they start to adapt and they start to use things that are available here. Things like Bisquick, [inaudible] apparently makes the best Gulab jamun you can possibly imagine. And so, they build up this pantry, which is not necessarily totally Indian or from wherever country, but has all these elements in it. And it is not fusion cooking. It is a real form of cuisine that is becoming much more important.

MG: And that's what's fleshed out in this book here?

LUCY WAVERMAN: That is kind of what this book is about. So, Khushbu Shah is a quite a very well-known American food writer. She was the restaurant reviewer for Food and Wine for two years. This book is kind of perfect. It's approachable. It's full of family traditions. The recipes are terrific. So, I made the mac and cheese, Makhani Mac and Cheese. So, first you make a Makhani sauce, which is not really hot, but it's got a lot of spicing in it. And then, you make kind of a traditional, typical mac and cheese and you can bind the whole thing together when you bake it. My God, it was so good. We ate the whole thing. It was supposed to be for four people. She made us a Saag Paneer lasagna. Well, you think about it: Saag Paneer is really spinach. And lots of times, there's finished lasagnas, but it's got all the Indian spicing in it. It takes it from being fun, but sort of ordinary up to a completely different level.

MG: The third culture is really interesting. I mean, that's something that I think a lot of people will find familiar, right? [LUCY WEAVERMAN: Yeah.] The ways the things come together and create something new.

LUCY WAVERMAN: That's right.

MG: Jonathan, one last one from you. And I think of, I mean, the guy who's behind this book, he's in the news more, not for his work as a chef and a restaurant owner, but for his humanitarian work.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: Absolutely. We're talking about Jose Andres. His new book, "Zaytinya," came out earlier this year. And I find a lot of books from the, from spring time tend to get a little bit lost in the end-of-year roundups. But I'm a big fan of this book, and I'm generally a big fan of Jose Andres's cookbooks. Zaytinya, delicious Mediterranean dishes from Greece, Turkey and Lebanon. This is based on the restaurant that he has started in D.C., but now has three locations, soon to be four throughout the U.S. The recipes are extremely accessible, yet, you know, a little bit sophisticated. I'll, I'll be honest. He, he hasn't reinvented really any wheels here. But if you want something that's really accessible, super-flavourful, very colourful, and you don't want to take a lot of time, this is definitely your book.

MG: Fantastic. We're out of time. But I mean, what else is flying out the door of your shop? Is there one other book that you want to mention that people can't get enough of?

JONATHAN CHEUNG: You know, it's really interesting that Lucy brought up third generation cooking. There's another book that I picked called "Mother Tongue: Flavours of a Second Generation." Gurdeep Loyal is a British-Indian food writer, and Mother Tongue is an ode to his mother. And so, it's very similar to the pick that Lucy made. But, but instead of being American, it's British.

MG: Lucy, you have a giant stack of books there. Is there one more that you want to mention?

LUCY WAVERMAN: Well, okay. I love food history. This is called "A Twist in the Tail." And it's the history of food through the lowly anchovy.

MG: The whole history of food through the anchovy?

LUCY WAVERMAN: Yes. And starting in Roman times with Garum, which was anchovy all the way up to the fact that I learned the Taphouse only came to Spain after the Second World War because they didn't have like huge amounts of food to be able to cook, and they had a million anchovies. So, they incorporated flavour into a lot of their food with anchovies. It is a really lovely and funny food history.

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: I'll second that. This is such a good book. I'm halfway through. I can hardly put it down.

MG: One final one from you.

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: Justine Doiron, "Justine Cooks." This is just a great, simple, approachable, delicious book for people who are new to cooking, who want to find their way in the kitchen. It's fantastic. One more. It's a travelog. It's called Korea World, a cookbook much like Amrikan. It is about how, you know, the kids of immigrants, the grandkids of immigrants cook Korean food. It's beautifully produced. It's a fantastic book.

MG: I mean, it's not by design, but a lot of the things that you've all talked about are about, we're living through really hard times. And it's about food, giving people comfort.

LUCY WAVERMAN: Yes.

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: 100 per cent. And, you know, the big kind of blousy chef monogram book that has recipes that nobody's ever going to make that sit on your coffee table. Those aren't really a thing anymore. It's been fascinating to see those disappear from publishing, and to see cookbook publishing move more toward what's going to give people courage in the kitchen, what's going to help them, what's going to make them feel good about food, what's going to make their families and friends feel good to eat?

JONATHAN CHEUNG: I also believe that, you know, this trend on immigrant cooking or like Lucy said, third culture cooking, is going to be big in the next little while.

LUCY WAVERMAN: I, somebody sent me this book. It's called "Sabor Judeo" and it is Mexican. It is kosher Mexican cooking. I hardly knew that there were any Jews left in Mexico, but there is a huge community there. They do things like latkes con mole.

MG: That's great. It's like, I've come to your houses and just rooted through your bookshelves. This is a lot of fun and hopefully some inspiration for people to buy things, perhaps for other people or maybe themselves. Thank you all.

CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: A pleasure.

JONATHAN CHEUNG: Same Here.

LUCY WAVERMAN: It's a pleasure. Thank you.

MG: LUCY WAVERMAN: is an author and food columnist at The Globe and Mail. CHRIS NUTTALL-SMITH: is a food writer and restaurant critic. And JONATHAN CHEUNG: is a chef and owner of the cookbook store, Appetite for Books, in Montreal. If you didn't catch all of those titles, we have a list of them up on our web page. Go to cbc.ca/thecurrent. And here's something nice: We also have some of these books to give away to you. What you need to do is write to us with a cookbook story. What is it about cookbooks that makes you happy? What have you made that has worked out from a cookbook? A tremendously successful recipe, maybe a disaster, something that you made that was a nightmare, and it didn't actually work out. Tell us the story of how it went sideways and when do you turn to your favourite cookbook for inspiration? Email us: thecurrent@cbc.ca. Tell us a good story about you and a cookbook, and we will draw from a hat and give away some of these books to you. Well, coming up after your regional update.

[Marmot sounds]

MG: What is that? [Music: Theme fading in] That is the rare sound of a Vancouver Island marmot. This year, it became a lot less rare. Coming up after the break, the extraordinary comeback of a species nearly gone extinct. What could we learn from what happened on Vancouver Island? We'll tell you. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in 90 seconds. Stick around.

[Music: Theme]

A quantum computing breakthrough

Guests: Cade Metz

MG: Hello again, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current. Imagine a machine so powerful that it can solve an extremely complicated math problem in just a few minutes. Sounds pretty impressive. Now, what if I told you that to perform that same task, it would take one of the world's most powerful supercomputers longer than the amount of time the universe has existed? This week, Google announced that it got a machine to perform that same math calculation in under five minutes. The machine is a quantum computer with a chip they've named Willow. This is the kind of thing people in the tech industry have been striving toward for decades. And it also involves another extreme: Very, very low temperatures. Have a listen to one of Google's engineers, Ashley Huff, explaining in a corporate video how cold they need to keep this computer.

SOUNDCLIP

ASHLEY HUFF: The farther down you go, the colder you get. If we start at room temperature 50 Calvary, ten Kelvin, three Kelvin, which is outer space now, for a reference. One Kelvin, 41 Kelvin, 0.01 Kelvin. And this year, below the plate is where we actually mount the quantum processor. Literally, the coldest places in the universe.

MG: It's -273°C. It's not just cool, though. Quantum computing is now a step closer to making a real difference in our lives, for better or for worse. Cade Metz is a technology reporter for The New York Times. Cade, good morning.

CADE METZ: Good morning.

MG: Before we talk about what this thing can or can't do, can you just explain what quantum computing is?

CADE METZ: Wow. Now, that is a difficult question. It's such a fascinating thing, but it's a hard thing to grasp. A quantum computer behaves according to the laws of what scientists call quantum mechanics, and it's the physics of very tiny things like an atom or very, very cold things like the system at Google that you just described. These quantum systems behave in ways that things in our daily lives, the world of classical physics, don't behave. The fundamental idea is that whereas a classical computer, the kind of computer you may be sitting in front of right now, it stores information in what are called bits. These, this is the fundamental building block of a computer. Each bit can store either a one or a zero. And as you string those bits together, you can store more numbers, more ones and zeros, and you can perform calculations on those numbers. It's a lot like what you would do in high school on a piece of paper. It's just done in a larger scale and faster on your laptop. With a quantum computer, you use those quantum systems I talked about, those very tiny things or those very cold things to store your information. The trick is a quantum system can store a one and a zero at the same time. It can hold two numbers simultaneously, physically. That's not something that you or I can relate to here in our everyday world. Things are either one thing or another. They can't be two things at the same time. But, but believe it or not, in these, these systems, something like Google's chip, which is cooled to those very low temperatures, can behave in that strange way. And what that means is as you string more and more of those quantum bits or qubits together, your machine becomes exponentially more powerful than anything we could build here in the classical world.

MG: So, they did this math calculation in some ways to prove that point with this chip [CADE METZ: Inaudible] that that is kept at this insanely low temperature. Why is this such a big deal?

CADE METZ: You phrased it well. It's, it's to prove the point. It's to show that after decades of research, quantum machines can be that much more powerful than a classical computer, right? They're showing that there is a calculation that a quantum machine can perform in five minutes, that a classical supercomputer, computer, one of the most powerful supercomputers on earth today, couldn't perform in ten septillion years, which sounds like something out of a sci-fi movie. But they phrased it that way to make their point, right? This, this calculation is not something practical. It's not something that's going to change your life or anyone else's life today. But it shows what's possible in the future. There's still a hurdle to get over, a large hurdle, but we can talk about that as well.

MG: What are the hurdles? Because people have been, have been thinking about this for a long time. I don't know whether they had faith that it would actually work, but people have been striving toward this, as I said, for a long time. What are the hurdles to get it to a practical use?

CADE METZ: Well, this is another mind-bending concept that can be hard, hard to wrap your head around. But, you know, I talked about that phenomenon where in the quantum world, something can be two things at the same time. The trouble is, if, if something like you or I, a classical piece of physics, tries to look at that system and read both things, it decoheres, as scientists say. It collapses into an ordinary classical system that can only hold one thing. So, you, just by trying to read your quantum computer, you destroy it. It no, it's no longer a quantum computer. And that seems impossible to get around, if you think about it. Scientists, for decades, have been trying to get around that problem. And what they, what they aim to do is put lots of these qubits together and find ways of, of reading that information. Maybe you read it out of some, but not others and take the calculation of the whole system as opposed to just one qubit. Essentially what they're trying to do is they're trying to reduce the errors that come when you use a quantum computer, when you look at some of that data. It creates errors. It creates mistakes that you can't get over. But what Google also showed recently with this quantum machine is that it can reduce the errors in a significant way. They cross what they call the error correction threshold. And all that means is they have shown that as they put more and more of these qubits together, that the number of errors reduces, reduces exponentially. So the larger the quantum machine, the fewer the errors. What that means in the long run is that we're on a path towards a system where the errors are no longer a huge problem, and you can do things that are practical.

MG: You spoke with a theoretical physicist for your piece in the Times who said, We will eventually see the impact of quantum computing in our everyday lives. How will we see that? What is the promise here?

CADE METZ: The promises are big, alright? The promise is that eventually this will help us do drug discovery, so develop new medicines and vaccines, that it will help us develop artificial intelligence, something that's in the news every day, and improve these systems that in automated ways, help us do things in our everyday lives. But there's also a flip side. There's a danger to this. Scientists have long worried that if you have a quantum computer, a viable quantum computer, it can break all the encrypt encryption on Earth that protects the world's secrets, you know, that provide security for governments. That moment is something that scientists have long feared and that could be brought about by a quantum computer.

MG: Given that, how much of an arms race is there underway right now to try to not just develop this, but to your point, reduce the errors such that it is, it is of practical use?

CADE METZ: It's an enormous arms race. It's, here in the U.S., it's not just companies like Google that are doing this. It rivals like IBM, Microsoft and Intel are building similar machines. This is a big area of interest in Europe, and it's a big area of interest in China, which by some calculations, the Chinese government's own calculations has contributed over $15 billion to this type of technology. All of these organizations are working towards building quantum computers that could, that could potentially break encryption, but also new quantum systems that would provide new methods of encryption capable of standing up to a quantum computer.

MG: You write a lot about A.I., and you mentioned this already, that it could help advance perhaps artificial intelligence. But do you see, do you see a similarity, comparable kind of narrative here? In part because we talk a lot about A.I., we don't talk nearly as much about quantum computing. But do you see a similarity in terms of how, if scientists can smooth out those bumps in the road, that that could change our lives?

CADE METZ: It could. And change works in two ways, though. It can change our lives for the better or for worse. And that's why they're similar. You do hear more about A.I. nowadays because it is more real, so to speak, and we've used chat bots now for a couple of years. You know, the average person has, and we can see, you know, a little bit of the power and the potential of this technology. A quantum computer is still very much in the future. Let's make that clear. Getting to the point where it can do something that's going to change our lives may be years away. It could be a decade away, maybe more than that. So, we'll see how this plays out. Scientists are often overly optimistic about these things, whether it's A.I. or quantum computing.

MG: Cade, thank you very much.

CADE METZ: Glad to be here.

MG: Cade Metz is a technology reporter for the New York Times and the author of "Genius Makers: The Mavericks who brought AI to Google, Facebook and the World." He is in Berkeley, California.

[Upbeat guitar and banjo music playing]

And a marmot baby boom

Guest: Adam Taylor

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio. I'm Matt Galloway.

[Marmot sounds]

MG: Well, that's a peculiar sound. What is that? I'm not stepping on a dog chew toy here in the studio. That, it turns out, is the whistle of the Vancouver Island Marmot, one of the world's rarest mammals. It is a chocolate brown rodent with a distinctive white snout. It lives exclusively on, as you might the name might suggest, Vancouver Island. It is critically endangered, but conservationists were, who were worried about its extinction, have, have some good news to tell you. This year, a record number of pups were born, more than 100 of these marmot pups. Adam Taylor is the head of the Marmot Recovery Foundation. Adam, good morning.

ADAM TAYLOR: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What's it like for you to hear that little squeaky sound?

ADAM TAYLOR: Oh, it's always a special noise. You know, it is. It's, it's really rewarding when you get into the meadow and you hear a marmot whistle. It means they're upset at you, of course. But, yeah, it also means they're there. And that's, yeah, it's a rewarding feeling to hear.

MG: You say, of course, because you know, these mammals inside and most of us just hear that noise and they think, 'What is that?' Describe, I gave the little kind of thumbnail sketch. Describe the Vancouver Island Marmot in all its glory.

ADAM TAYLOR: So, the Vancouver Island Marmot is a sub alpine dwelling ground squirrel, so it lives at high elevation in these mountain meadows that are created by snow action. So, snow literally scraping trees off of the side of the mountains and there, they feed on wildflowers and grasses. And then as winter comes to escape, a really long, harsh winter, some of the high mountains, they go underground. And for seven months of the year, like right now, they're hibernating. Their body temperature drops, their breathing rate drops, their heart rate drops. And for the next, well until the spring, they're going to be living entirely off of their stored body fat. And then, they've got a really short season once they wake up to get out, feed and regain all of that body condition for the next winter.

MG: What do you love about them?

ADAM TAYLOR: Everything. I mean, they. They are an amazing animal to work with. I mean, I love that they're unique. They're one of the few endemic mammal species, so, in all of Canada, there's only five mammal species that live just in Canada and nowhere else in the world. And this is the largest of them. So, it's uniquely ours. I mean, I do, I do love all wildlife and I've worked with other endangered species, including endangered slugs and endangered snakes prior to joining the Vancouver Island Marmot recovery effort. I really and I say this is context, I really don't believe that how cute a species is has anything to do with how important it is to conserve that species. But having said that, I mean, Vancouver Island Marmots are incredibly cute. There's just no getting around that. I mean, they're these, you get into these alpine meadows and you'll see especially the young marmots that pops and the yearlings, they're, they're running around, they're wrestling with each other. They'll be pushing each other, and then they'll pause for a moment and then, they'll touch noses. And this is a way that Vancouver Island Marmots pair bond. So, you'll see the young and their parents literally kind of boop noses as a way of building those social relationships. And the other guests, they're are, they're are fantastic animals and of course they're important in their ecosystems too. I mean, they are living in an extremely harsh ecosystem and Vancouver Island marmots on our island, they're the only mammal species that really dig in as much as they are. And their role in meadows is we're still trying to understand it, but we know from other marmot species that, you know, turning over soil makes a huge difference there. There's association between marmots and higher levels of plant biodiversity in alpine ecosystems. We know that other species use that, that burrows, the diggings that the marmots create for various parts of their life cycle. So, there are, there are an amazing animal to spend time with and an important animal in our ecosystem.

MG: So, we heard the whistle earlier? That was right?

ADAM TAYLOR: That's right. Yeah. That was an alarm call. That was actually a marmot that was in the process of being released and very stressful moment for that marmot.

MG: Okay, I want to play another Marmot sound. Have a listen.

[Marmot sound]

MG: What's going on there?

ADAM TAYLOR: So, that's a keaw. That's what we call it. It's a noise that only Vancouver Island Marmots make. So, it's a unique call to the Vancouver Island Marmot. And what's special about that one is that it seems to be a contact call between young and adults. So, we only hear that call when there's either pups or yearlings in the meadow. So, oftentimes, it's our first indication when we're hiking into a meadow in the early summer. It's our first indication that there's actually pups there. We'll hear that call. And as soon as we hear it, you know that there's going to be young around and Vancouver Island Marmots, they have more vocalizations than any other marmot species in the world, and that one is one of the really unique ones. As far as we know, only Vancouver Island Marmots have that particular contact call.

MG: The keaw.

ADAM TAYLOR: The keaw. That's right. I have to admit, that's a bit of a made up word. I don't know...

MG: I just like saying it, that's all.

ADAM TAYLOR: But I'm not going to try and mimic the call for you. But yeah, that's, that's what we call it.

MG: I said in the introduction that these marmots are critically endangered. How close have they come to dying out entirely?

ADAM TAYLOR: So in 2003, there were fewer than 30 Vancouver Island Marmots left in the wild. That year, we could only find 22. So that's I mean, that's about as close as you can get to extinction as is possible and still have some kind of hope for recovery.

MG: How much of that, how much of that was our fault?

ADAM TAYLOR: Well, I mean, it's, it's really hard for us to pin that down exactly, because nobody was really paying attention to the Vancouver Island Marmot as their population really declined. So, they live in very harsh remote ecosystems. But having said that, you know, the best available evidence we have today suggests that Vancouver Island Marmots have been around Vancouver Island probably for about 2 million years. So, this change feels like it was pretty recent and post-colonization. So, just in the past hundred years and probably just in the past few decades. So it is, it is the result, I think it's fair to say. It's almost certainly the result of our actions and the results specifically of landscape changes that we've made on the island. So, the way that Vancouver Island Marmots survive, you have to imagine that they're living in these kind of meadows in between a sea of trees and glaciers and mountain tops. So, there's these small, isolated patches of landscape that the marmots actually use. In each of those pockets, in each of those colonies, you might have a small kind of village of marmots, maybe 10, maybe 30, maybe in the past we would have had colonies of 100 or more. But any small population of any species is always extremely vulnerable to extinction. So, what really made it possible for Vancouver Island Marmots to survive was not the size of their colonies, but the ability of marmots to move between them. So, marmots, when they're about two years old, they leave their natal colony, the colony that they were born in, and they go off to find another Vancouver Island Marmot colony. And that is an incredibly important, this dispersal is an incredibly important part of the Marmot's life cycle. It provides a rescue effect for colonies that have got to trouble. It provides genetic exchange for these colonies. And it seems like we disrupted that process, and we did that in a number of ways. We created population sinks. So logging areas, when you clear an area to a marmot, that looks like a meadow. So, these marmots were being born in their, in their alpine meadows, and they would see an area that had been recently logged, and they would move into that, thinking that that was, you know, maybe an easier journey than going off to find another actual natural Vancouver marmot colony. But the problem with those areas that have been recently large is that the trees there are going to regrow and as they regrow, we lose the meadow and the marmots and unfortunately, they can't survive. They get eaten very quickly by predators if they can't attack them in open space. So, we created these cut blocks that stopped, that attracted marmots, created population size. We also did other things, like we created Strathcona Dam and Strathcona Provincial Park, which created a huge lake. And unfortunately, that lake is right in the middle of the, the core part of Vancouver Island Marmot habitat, this set of mountain ranges on either side of that lake where there were in the past. And we're rebuilding today, these Vancouver Island Marmot colonies. And in the past, they would have been exchanging members across that valley bottom all the time. But they're not strong swimmers. They're not going across the lake. So, that, the creation of that hydroelectric dam actively drew a sharp line and isolated those colonies on either side of that lake. And again, isolated colonies. If something doesn't happen to the colony over time, then the colony is eventually going to become inbred because it's not receiving disperses. And we did see that at the beginning of the recovery effort. There was at Mount Washington, a colony where the marmots were highly inbred because they hadn't received any dispersers probably for many, many years.

MG: So, the good news story as I started with this, was that there are this record, there's this record number of pups that were born, more than 100. Does that suggest that the marmots are out of the woods?

ADAM TAYLOR: It is fantastic news that we have this 108 pups this year. It's incredible news, but it certainly needs context. It does not mean that the species is safe. It, this is still a critically endangered species, and that number definitely needs some context so that's more pups than we've ever seen in the wild. And it tells us a couple of really important things. One of the big things it tells us is that the adults are in good body condition. So, the adults are thriving in the wild. And we know that because marmots have this really harsh life cycle, we always think of hibernation as being fun, but it takes a huge toll on the marmot's body. And so, when they come out of hibernation, they breed immediately. I mean, they are literally reproducing, maybe even in the burrows before they've dug their way out of hibernation spring. So, to be able to breed at all means that the female marmots have to be in tip top body shape. And that's work that they have to have done in the wild the year before. So, all of these pups means that these female marmots, they are, they're managing that. And that's really, really important. And of course, these 108 pups, they're, you know, they're the next generation of Vancouver Island Marmots. So, that's fantastic news. But having said that, it is really important to understand that, that pups have the lowest survival among marmots. It's going to take them three years before they get to adulthood. And even in normal circumstances, maybe 1 in 5 to 1 in 6 of these young pups is actually going to survive until they're ready to, to reproduce themselves. So, we are over the moon about this. And it really is good news for the species, but it is not the end of the road for recovery for the Vancouver Island Marmot.

MG: I feel like I know more about marmots than I could have possibly even imagined going into this conversation. And now, I want to see them. So, I have to come out to the island to have a look. Adam, this is really interesting news. Good news stories, particularly when it comes to nature, aren't particularly prominent these days. So, I'm glad that we had a chance to talk to you about this. Thank you very much.

ADAM TAYLOR: Thank you so much.

MG: Thanks for telling us about your work. Adam Taylor is executive director of the Marmot Recovery Foundation. He's in Cobble Hill on Vancouver Island. That's The Current for this Friday, the 13th of December. Q's up next on CBC Radio One. We're going to leave you with a bit of a musical milestone. This week, a song by the brilliant Montreal musician Patrick Watson surpassed a billion streams on Spotify. The song is "Je te laisserai des mots." Patrick posted this on Instagram, 'It is an incredible thing to try to imagine what a billion actually means. An enormous number that is difficult to comprehend. I know that people write me all the time saying they listen to this song in difficult times. To make it more incredible, the song is in French. I grew up in Montreal. I'm incredibly proud that a French song has crossed these boundaries. I spoke French since I was young. It's an incredible language, has an incredible musical history. I feel humbled to be part of it.' We'll leave you this morning with Patrick Watson. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend.

[Music: Je te laisserai des mots by Patrick Watson]

Friday, December 13, 2024 Full Transcript

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