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The Current Transcript for August 30, 2024

Host: Susan Ormiston

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SPEAKER: Katzberg wins Olympic gold on his first throw here in Paris.

SPEAKER: Camryn Rogers now winding, whipping top speed lets it fly. Oh, it's a massive throw! Whoa!

SUSAN ORMISTON: Whoa, indeed. If we learned anything from the Paris Games, it's that Canadians know how to throw. Ethan Katzberg and Camryn Rogers gave Canada a clean sweep for gold in the Olympic hammer throw competition. But it doesn't end there. In 30 minutes, how Paralympian shot putter Greg Stewart is feeling heading into his second Paralympics as the defending champion. Also this morning, Sophie Gregoire Trudeau is no stranger to the spotlight. She's been a TV host in Quebec and an advocate for those people struggling with eating disorders. For many years, of course, she was by the side of her husband, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, but she says she never let herself fall into the role of prime minister's wife.

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SOPHIE GREGOIRE TRUDEAU: I don't take roles. I am Sophie, who I am, and I think that my friends throughout this whole journey have always seen the same Sophie. Evolving, I hope. Becoming a better person, I hope.

SO: On her own now, she has released a memoir in an hour. Sophie Gregoire Trudeau on emotional literacy, parenting in an era of polarisation and a life in the public eye. But we begin today in Afghanistan and a sombre anniversary. Three years since the Taliban took over. I'm Susan Ormiston, sitting in for Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

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New restrictions placed on women in Afghanistan

Guests: Nargis Nehan, Shinkai Karokhail, Shoaib Rahim

SO: Today marks three years since the U.S. military withdrew from Afghanistan. They left a country in chaos and the Taliban in control. Girls’ education passed grade six was banned. Opponents of the regime terrorised. And now, in the past two weeks, the Taliban have brought in even stricter rules. Women must now be covered from head to face to toe. Even their voices can't be heard in public. And there are many more alarming restrictions. The rules have drawn condemnation from Western capitals and international organizations, but many Afghans in exile say that's not near enough. There's much more that could be done. I'm joined in studio by three Afghans who are now living in the Toronto area. Nargis Nehan is a former Afghan MP who served as the Minister of Mines and Petroleum from 2017 to 2019. Shinkai Karokhail was an Afghan MP for 15 years. She also served as the country's ambassador to Canada, and Shoaib Rahim served as mayor of Kabul, and was a senior advisor in the Ministry of Peace during negotiations with the Taliban. Thank you all for being here. Good morning.

SHOAIB RAHIM: Morning.

NARGIS NEHAN: Good morning.

SO: Nargis, welcome. What are you hearing from family and friends in Afghanistan about the impact of these new restrictions, particularly against women?

NARGIS NEHAN: First of all, like rest of us, the women and rest of people inside Afghanistan are really shocked and appalled by the new law that's imposed by the Taliban on the people. And in most of the provinces, people are just on their toes waiting and watching that how is that the law is going to be implemented by the Taliban? However, there are several provinces that we talk to women where actually the Ministry of Virtue and Vice has already started printing different posters. And they sent me the picture of one of the posters were actually they had compared a woman who's wearing tight clothes and thin clothes and not properly covering her head and face, with an animal. So, according to them, if you are not following the law, basically you're-- beside being less than a human that always they see the woman, they even think that women are worse than animals if they don't follow the law.

SO: Shinkai, I think it's important for us to add a little detail about what we know about these new laws against women. Veiling themselves, wearing full ankle to head clothing. But there are other things. Their voice?

SHINKAI KAROKHAIL: Well, actually, it was like, Ms. Nehan said, it was like a big shock because even Taliban from the beginning, they were practicing such an attitude towards woman. But, you know, by having this, the first written law by Taliban gives like a full authority to the morality police so they can pursue a legal case against women, and they also can put them in prison for violating this law and covering the entire body, including not to raise your voice publicly, it means systematically, they could erase women from public life.

SO: You know, when I was in Afghanistan last in 2021, after the Taliban took over Schwab, they said at the time, these are temporary, the banning of secondary school, it's temporary till we get some laws, conformity. It hasn't been temporary.

SHOAIB RAHIM: But we got the laws. So, now we know what they meant. I'd like to read the actual words of the law. Article 13 out of the 35 articles, because I think it'll help the listeners and viewers understand the gravity of the situation. So, article 13, which is regarding the female hijab, has eight clauses. I'm just going to quote three or four of them. First, that the women are required to cover the female body completely, cover the face to avoid fear of temptation. That's a very important part of the article. The justification for this is because men might be tempted. Therefore, you must cover yourself. The female voice is considered aurat, a source of humiliation and disgrace. That's the definition of aurat. Singing loudly poems and reading in general, is forbidden. Finally, when a woman must leave the home for essential needs like surviving, for example, she must cover her body, face and voice. I urge anybody interested to look at articles 13, 14 and 17 to really understand the level of despair that is continuously set upon the population, particularly the women. I spoke to a relative of mine this this very morning in preparation for our conversation today. And I just asked him, so how do you feel? He said, for the first time, despite all the hardships, I'm considering leaving because of my daughters. They will go mental. They cannot survive this. They have become suicidal.

SO: If they can leave.

SHOAIB RAHIM: Exactly. And so, that's what he's trying to figure out.

SO: Shinkai, UN officials and various governments have condemned these laws as they condemn the education bans, as they've protested against several things that the Taliban have put in place since 2021. But it doesn't seem to have affected change. What more needs to happen from the international community? What pressure?

SHINKAI KAROKHAIL: I think the first thing from international community, they should stop supporting Taliban. This is the international provide them all this ground for them to grab the power in Afghanistan. The way they signed the Doha Agreement, it means they ignored the people of Afghanistan, especially women of Afghanistan. Secondly, international should also respect all those international human rights documents which they are signatories to that. And if Taliban violating those laws, they should not get the way Taliban want them to be engaged with them. And the third, I think, stop supporting financially or politically.

SO: Nargis, this has been a criticism that's been gaining more strength that in some quarters it may feel like international organizations are normalizing the Taliban. How much of a danger is that?

NARGIS NEHAN: Well, the danger is the stake is really high. That's what we are very frustrated when we see that the world somehow doesn't seem to understand or acknowledge. When it comes to the situation in Afghanistan and the plight of a woman in Afghanistan, then we see that there is a joint response and reaction from the international community. But this joint response and reaction is only limited to statements and tweets. We honestly have not seen anything more than that yet. So, the two stage is really important for us to understand. One is that, as Ms. Karokhail said, that first of all, the world has to understand that they have to stop their transactional bilateral engagement with the Taliban.

SO: But would that isolate Afghanistan even further?

NARGIS NEHAN: Look, there a way that you can help Afghans without dealing with the Taliban. You have a mechanism in place which is the UN agencies, the international organizations that are inside Afghanistan. You can still provide humanitarian assistance to the nongovernmental organizations and to civil society sector, to the people. But you don't have to go and meet, even if you are meeting Taliban, why would you go and post that on social media and promote that? You can just simply say that I'm sorry, with all the restrictions that you have put on women. I'm here to talk to you about access for humanitarian assistance, but I cannot post this on social media because I'm going to be criticized by many people, so at least the Taliban could understand the gravity of the situation. They don't get that from the international community and that in the process has emboldened them. What we see right now, they can see the main consequence of the situation. Two things. One is that what is happening to the women of Afghanistan today, it is going to have its consequences all around the world. You will see that many other groups are going to become emboldened after that, and they are going to put more restrictions on women because it's normalized. It's acceptable now. The second thing which is more dangerous is the expansion of extremism, because beside not allowing women to go to school and have access to education, work or anything, the Taliban have also changed the curriculum for the boys, and they have done all public schools into madrassas, the religious schools where they are teaching them and brainwashing them with the most regressive religious form of the Sharia law.

SO: Shoaib, I want to ask you about the three years that have transpired since the Taliban rolled back into Kabul. What lessons, what have you learned in those three years about what's happened to Afghanistan that informs how we should go forward?

SHOAIB RAHIM: Before I get to that question, I'd like to address an issue which is less discussed. It might be a sensitive issue, but I think this is the platform to speak about it. And that is the silence of Canadian Muslims, the silence of Muslim organizations in the West. Where is their outcry? Why are they not defaming and calling out the Taliban's horrendous law? Where is this in Islamic preachings and teachings? I think to your question of the three years, one of the issues that has concerned me is the fact that you find many Taliban sympathizers. And the reason for that sympathy is mostly conflating various issues. For example, you may stand anywhere in the spectrum on the Israel-Gaza issue, regardless of where you stand on that issue, you need to condemn the Taliban treatment of women in Afghanistan. Regardless of your political leanings elsewhere, there needs to be unilateral condemnation of how the Taliban are treating women in Afghanistan in the past three years. And I think one of the biggest lessons that my generation, who worked with the world, trusted international order and organizations, is that, you know, this facade of order and international commitments and sanctions and United Nations Security Council resolutions really mean nothing. Those who are in the corridors of power can choose to do whatever it is they want to do.

SO: Shinkai, what kind of support do opposition leaders in exile need to continue pressuring change for Afghanistan?

SHINKAI KAROKHAIL: Well, I think first, we Afghans should come together and accept each other. The way we are struggling, the way we are scattered, the way we are pursuing different agenda, might not be the priority. First, we should come together and decide what's the real priority for us at the moment. But having this platform, it's very much important to be provided by international. So, for all those political movement are not allowed to have like a big gathering in any countries. It is the visa restriction is that gathering the resources... the political support, as well.

SO: So, you're not able to have a summit, for example?

SHINKAI KAROKHAIL: Exactly. We are not allowed [unclear.] None of those countries [unclear] allow us to conduct such a summit or a platform. Come together. So, like a hosting. So, accepting each other, working with each other and set our priority. That's the most important.

SO: And what would be that priority?

SHINKAI KAROKHAIL: The priority at the moment we need intra-Afghan dialogue among ourselves first. To come to that political consensus and then sit with that with the Taliban. International should support us because what Taliban signed and the agreement, a Doha agreement, how they can ignore that?

SO: And remind us what particularly are they ignoring?

SHINKAI KAROKHAIL: Because it was written in that Doha agreement that Afghans should decide their future political system in Afghanistan, like the interim government or whatever. That didn't happen. So, just to come and grab the power and whatever they wanted, they are doing and international especially America is also signed about that.

SO: Nargis, what is the danger if you aren't able to mount more pressure against the Taliban, in particular to respect human rights?

NARGIS NEHAN: Look, Susan, the international community has to decide in the bigger picture what exactly do they want. What kind of order they want to pursue for the world moving forward. If we would like to stand and work for the expansion of democracy, openness, equality, justice, then the path that we have adopted for Afghanistan and many other countries is not the right path. And we have to understand that today the world is connected. So, three things which are important for us moving ahead. One is that we have to stop normalization of Taliban and the values of democracy, justice, equality should be really universal. It should not be selective for some country and should be dropped for some other countries. And then moving forward for us, as Ms. Karokhail said, it's really important that we invest and --not invest, but actually support the struggle of the Afghans in the last three years. The last three years proved to us very well that many of the groups and many of the leaders that the worlds were investing in Afghanistan actually have no role, no influence and no interest in the situation of Afghanistan anymore. They were just there as in the current years, to implement projects. But you have different groups that they have come today, and the spotlight and they are resisting. So, you have women of Afghanistan today that they are resilient. They are resisting inside and outside Afghanistan, and they are demonstrating a very different leadership. Let me give you the example of that leadership, Susan. Today, besides advocating for the rights of women in Afghanistan, we are also advocating for recognition of gender apartheid as a crime against humanity. Why? The reason that we are strong, we are advocating for that, we want to make sure that gender apartheid is recognized as a crime under international law, because once you have that, then no country, no regime is actually going to be able to come up with the kind of institutionalized and systematic policy that the Taliban has come for suppression of women.

SO: I have little time left for such a wide ranging and important subject. But I want to ask you a personal question, each of you, very briefly. You all took advantage of a system that allowed you to get an education, a generation that was allowed to hold leadership positions inside Afghanistan. As you two women, that wouldn't happen today. How does that make you feel?

SHINKAI KAROKHAIL: Well, of course I feel so bad worried about the future of Afghanistan. Not only personally, but I think it is globally proof that investing on girls’ education will confirm and guarantee the development of our country. We want Afghanistan a prosperous, independent politically and economically and progressed Afghanistan. That won't happen without girls’ education. So, education is a very key element for everything, I think, and globally.

SHOAIB RAHIM: I think we have to recognize, particularly for the Canadian audience, that Afghanistan matters. It's one of the largest, if not the largest Canadian military deployment since World War II. So, there are Canadians who served, lost their lives and got injured in Afghanistan. Som this is not just some off topic about some random location around the world. So, the question is, what can I do? A: you can call out Taliban apologists, armchair lobbyists who use fancy words to cover up and justify what the Taliban are doing because they're paid to do so. And trust me, there are far too many of them today, unfortunately. Second, you can support platforms which are trying to educate the men and young women, men and women, particularly women in Afghanistan, circumventing the Taliban ban like the American University Afghanistan. Like many civil society organizations who are constantly fundraising, looking for resources. Seek them out. Support them. That makes an actual difference in the lives of people on the ground. Everybody's trying to survive the Taliban. Help people survive the Taliban.

SO: Nargis, where do you find hope?

NARGIS NEHAN: My main source of hope and inspiration is the women of Afghanistan. The resilience, the resistance and the leadership that they have. I'm someone that I left my country for the second time. I went to school in Pakistan in one of the refugee schools. I remember that I was attending classes, that they were under tent. When I came back to Afghanistan, my main hope was that we should hand over a better Afghanistan to our young generation, to our women. They should not study under tent the way that I studied. They should not be struggling about their identity the way that I did, not knowing that one day the schools would be closed for them.

SO: It's difficult.

NARGIS NEHAN: But one thing that I'm very confident and clear about, that the future of Afghanistan is going to be changed by the women of Afghanistan. It's going to be the women of Afghanistan that this time they're going to free up Afghanistan. Today, the world is not standing with us. Even in some cases, men are not standing with us. Islamic countries are not standing with us. But still, no matter how hard it is, how bumpy the road is and how difficult it is, the women are going to walk this road, and we are going to prove that for the values that world were preaching, we stood for it, we fought for it, and we restored it not only in our country but actually around the globe.

SO: I want to thank all three of you for coming in and sharing the update on Afghanistan, which isn't good. It's something, though, that deserves a lot more discussion. And I really appreciate you sharing with us your fears, your hopes, and your aspirations for your country.

SHOAIB RAHIM: Thank you for having us.

SO: Nargis Nehan is a former Afghan MP who served as the Minister of Mines and Petroleum from 2017 to 2019. Shinkai Karokhail was an Afghan MP for 15 years and also served as the country's ambassador to Canada, and Shoaib Rahim Abrahim served as mayor of Kabul and was a senior advisor in the Ministry of Peace during negotiations with the Taliban. The CBC News is next, and then...

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Speaker 6 It is a constant reminder of when I felt like I was aligned with my ownership, my trust and my integrity as owning my actions, as trusting in my actions as well. But on top of it, I was aligned with myself.

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SO: Canadian Greg Stewart won gold in Shotput at the Paralympic Games in Tokyo in 2021, but he says his medal doesn't define him, it reminds him. Coming up, he and Canadian boccia player Lance Cryderman share their excitement and their journeys to compete at the Paralympics in Paris. That's in six minutes. I'm Susan Ormiston, this is The Current.

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Canadian Paralympians hope to inspire in Paris

Guests: Greg Stewart, Lance Cryderman

SO: I'm Susan Ormiston. You're listening to The Current. The 2024 Paralympic Games are officially underway, and Canada has 126 athletes competing in 18 different sports. And some, like track cyclist Kate O'Brien and swimmer Aurélie Rivard, are already winning medals. This morning we'll meet two athletes representing Canada in Paris. First, Greg Stewart from Kamloops, British Columbia. He brought home a gold in Shotput at the Tokyo Paralympics. Greg, good morning.

GREG STEWART: Good morning.

SO: How are you feeling about heading into this Paralympics?

GREG STEWART: Oh, man, I wish I could tell you exactly how I'm feeling. But one thing for certain is there's a lot of excitement. But also, a lot of mystery, I would say, because I really only have Tokyo to compare it to. And Tokyo we're all well aware of, was a COVID year. So, there's so much uncertainty, there's so much mystery to it. But the excitement around that mystery is pretty exciting.

SO: That's a really wonderful image of mystery. And also, you know, how you'll do. It's never assured, is it? You retired two years ago. Why did you come back?

GREG STEWART: I've always found that sport plays a vital role in my life. But also, I think our mental health matters. I think our ability to recognize how we're feeling and see how we impact the world and environment around us plays such an important role. And I think athletes have a duty to share that, because I can't think of any other role where you are in a consistent place of reflection. Athletes are constantly reflecting on their physical health, mental health, spiritual health, everything like that. And I just absolutely love speaking, I love being able to motivate other people, and it's one of the things that I will continue to do. And being an athlete, it provides that reflection to share and support other people. So really, that's why I came back.

SO: So, you missed it?

GREG STEWART: Oh, yeah. Absolutely, I missed it. But I just love the opportunities that being an athlete presents.

SO: You've been an elite athlete in multiple sports. Sitting volleyball, varsity basketball. How did you get into shotput?

GREG STEWART: Still trying to figure that one out as well, but it just kind of honestly fell in my plate. I just happened to be in Kamloops at a Christmas party many, many years ago, and I came across a few people in a hallway at that hotel. We exchanged some information. They were with Team Canada para athletics. And that's kind of how it happened.

SO: You're a tall guy. What? How tall are you?

GREG STEWART: Yeah, I'm 7'2", 300 and, I don't know, 70 right now.

SO: So, they looked at you and said, Hey, man, you're a thrower.

GREG STEWART: Yeah. You ever thought about throwing a shotput? And I was like, well, it's interesting you say that because we were in Kamloops, and this is kind of the home to Dylan Armstrong. And I'm like, Yeah, I definitely would take it into consideration. And at that time, I was 30 years old, so I was a little bit of an older athlete. But because we're talking about para-sport, you know, we don't quite have that same selection that the Olympic people do. So, yeah, that's kind of where it started. And next thing you know I started throwing a shotput a lot more regularly and obviously been doing pretty well at it.

SO: You're a typical humble Canadian. You won a gold medal in Japan, so you're doing pretty well. Yeah. Tell me about that moment. And you know how it was different with no fans in Tokyo?

GREG STEWART: Well, that's normal practice in shotput. Usually there isn't a ton of fans in the stands, so it's an interesting one, but yeah. In Tokyo the-- going into the event, my coach at that time, Dylan Armstrong, our goal was just to, you know, keep the shotput tight in our neck and execute. You know, you don't go to win. You know, you go to follow the process. Ensure the steps you've taken are in place and just trust in your actions. And that's what happened. And I was, you know, prepared enough on that day to secure a gold medal. But who knows what the day after would have brought. And I think that's something that's really, really important to understanding medals and competition and everything like that is, you know, many of these athletes are training specifically for a one day. For one time, for their like, 15 minutes of fame in a way. And, you know, I just was grateful that I could just trust in that process to experience that one moment in time.

SO: Greg, you've said that your metal doesn't define you. It reminds you. What do you mean by that?

GREG STEWART: Yeah, like, I think the important thing about that medal is that it is a constant reminder of when I-- go a little deep on this. That day was when I felt like I was aligned with my ownership, my trust and my integrity. I was owning my actions. I was trusting in my actions, as well. But on top of it, I was just, I was aligned with what I felt was right, my values and beliefs. And so, that medal is a reminder of when I was aligned with myself. I often ask people, Who here has ever won, like a medal or, you know, a ribbon or something like that? And then who here has it in a box? And the majority of people do carry it in a box. But those things are important. Those things are important to remind us when we experience success or when we felt aligned with ourselves. And so, when I say it doesn't define or, it doesn't define me, it reminds me of when I acted on my truth and aligned with what was important to me. And in that case, that was my integrity.

SO: Greg, before we go on, for those of our audience listening who don't know you as an elite athlete, what qualifies you as a Paralympian?

GREG STEWART: So, I was born missing my left arm below the elbow. Just about like, three or four inches from my elbow. But I'm a para F46 categorized athlete. So, based on my amputation, F means field, and the 46 is the level of classification.

SO: And given that, has sport helped you? You've talked a lot about the psychology around elite sport. Has it helped you in your life?

GREG STEWART: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I think it helped me push to get better, to understand more. But I also found that it was a deterrent at times. You know, people with a disability are typically treated differently, and most people of a minority are treated differently. And so, I found that for a long period of my life, I was constantly in a place of needing to prove to people that I was good enough. And so, that was great motivation to do better and to explore more and to understand more and grow. But it also can be a bit of a deterrent because we're constantly meeting, we're constantly trying to get that reassurance that what we're doing is good enough. And I just, I found actually an ironic point, but I was about 25, 26 years old when I finally identified as a disabled person. I was constantly trying to prove to people that I wasn't, and it wasn't until I was 25 and doing some youth mental health work and whatnot to really be like, Oh no, I am disabled. And this is phenomenal. And this is a great place to be. And I hope-- and I hope everybody in this world learns to just really just see themselves for their truth, who they are, because it opens up so many more doors and it makes life so much easier.

SO: That's really interesting. Thank you for sharing that. Speaking about being treated differently, you recently spoke out about the financial difficulties some para-athletes face. What sort of funding do Canadian para-athletes get?

GREG STEWART: So, if you're a recognized athlete, so recognized being able to play for Team Canada or compete for Team Canada and you have the opportunity to get a carding. And so, there's two cardings or two cards, one is a junior card and a senior card development and then a senior. And I believe the development right now is about 1050 a month. And then a senior card is 1,765. That is tax free money that goes towards athletes to, you know, help supplement, you know, other income that they have coming in to allow them to train. But I don't know about you, but I think average rent in Canada is like $2,200 a month. So, if that's the case, we're about $500 shy of just paying rent. And, you know, money is the consistent problem that everybody is faced with. But what I find even more challenging about this is we are athletes. And the moment we become one, we're automatically put on a pedestal. You know, how many people at home or critiquing sitting on the couch and critiquing us? Oh, I could have done this better. Or, hey, you should have done this or that, done that. That is something that we are consistently dealing with. And because we're on that pedestal, there's this demand to do well, but we don't have the financial support behind it to allow ourselves to exceed it. That's why they're like 80 per cent of athletes, Canadian athletes have some form of another job. So, you know, money is definitely it's a conversation. But Carla Qualtrough recently did increase our carding, and I believe it starts here in November. December going up. I don't know the percentage, but it's definitely a help.

SO: Do you also get similar moneys as other Olympic counterparts do? Do para-athletes get the--

GREG STEWART: Yeah. So that's-- yeah. So, that's recently changed. So, as of... [SO: Recently?] I think it was March. Yeah. So, as of March. So okay, so here's the story. When I came home from Tokyo, Andre De Grasse, a few other Olympic athletes, when they won their, like, Olympic medals or like a Olympic gold medal, they got $20,000. When I got home, I got a handshake. And that handshake was like, from my friends. And so, there was a big discrepancy in terms of medals and money. Whereas now, as of March, there's been an incredible, investor, supporter of para sport who's now invested with Canadian Paralympic Committee. And now they're supporting us, as well. So, they're matching exactly what Olympic athletes are getting. Now, just to kind of give you an idea, Canadian athletes, I believe, started Olympic athletes started receiving funding from Calgary, the Calgary Olympic Games. So, that was in 88'. I wasn't born yet. But that was when athletes started, Olympic athletes started receive money for their medals. So, it's been 40 years since then. And now we're finally getting the recognition that the Olympic athletes are getting.

SO: Wow. I can't let you go without talking about-- you are the subject of a new children's book called Stand Out. How does it feel to see your image and your story in the pages of a book?

GREG STEWART: It feels extremely vulnerable. But at the same time, like, I think it's just important that kids can understand. The book is just about me growing up, as a kid and what it took to become a Paralympic champion. But it's just honest, you know. It's just, I didn't feel like I fit in. The book is called Stand Out. And that's, I would say, how I always felt, you know, whether I was growing up as a child with one arm and then all of a sudden becoming very, very tall. I just always kind of felt out of place. And I thought it was important that I share those feelings attached to that process, because I think it can connect with people on a deeper level so that, you know, again, it can make them feel a little bit more accepted, but it creates a sense of belonging because we're all feeling the same way.

SO: That's terrific.

GREG STEWART: Stand out. Thank you.

SO: Well, we're hoping you're going to be standing on the podium, but regardless of your performance, have fun in Paris. Good luck. And know that all Canadians are behind you and cheering you on.

GREG STEWART: Awesome. I really appreciate that. And I always like to say, just remember everyone, whether we're standing in the podium or we're at home: you are enough. We are enough. Lets support each other and love each other.

SO: Thanks, Greg.

GREG STEWART: Awesome. Thank you very much.

SO: Greg Stewart is representing Canada in shotput at the Paris Paralympics. Lance Cryderman is a boccia athlete from Sudbury, Ontario. We caught up with him yesterday just after his first match.

LANCE CRYDERMAN: Thank you for having me.

SO: You're most welcome. Thank you for representing our country, which you have done before, I understand, but it was back in 2000 at the Sydney Paralympic Games. How come you took a hiatus for decades?

LANCE CRYDERMAN: So, after the Sydney Olympic Games, in 2000, I have a decision to make. And I said to myself, I'm not going to make a lot of money playing this sport. So, it was time to focus on school and my career. And that's exactly what I did. So, I went into university and completed two degrees and sort of working in accessibility services at Laurentian in Sudbury and haven't looked back, continue to work there until this day. And, yeah.

SO: What pushed you to come back, Lance?

LANCE CRYDERMAN: There's an interesting, story, actually. I was sitting with my wife watching the national championships, which were being livestreamed on YouTube in 2017, and I was watching the BC1 classification, which is, of course, the class that I competed in. And I said to my wife, I think I used to play, and I really wanted to go. And we sat down, had a very serious conversation because I said, this is not something that I'd do half-heartedly. It's something that I'm all in for. And if I'm going to do this, I want to get to the elite level. Thankfully, she was onboard and here we are.

SO: Well, that's why you married her, of course.

LANCE CRYDERMAN: Yes.

SO: So, how does it feel being back at the games in Paris, no less?

LANCE CRYDERMAN: My goodness. You know, we had the opening yesterday, which I wouldn't have missed for the world. Even though I had to compete today, I wanted to make sure that I could experience it. You know, being part of the parade, coming into the stadium and seeing a crowd and just being part of the atmosphere was incredible and gives me chills just thinking about it. So, it was a great experience. So happy to be here and representing Canada once again.

SO: And we're happy you're there and cheering all of you. Well, just before we go on, help us out here. What exactly is boccia for folks who don't know? I know what it is. I love it but describe it.

LANCE CRYDERMAN: So, generally speaking. Well, it's a precision sport. The objective of the game is to get your coloured ball, either the red ball, or the-- it's you play red or blue, to get your coloured ball closer to the white ball than your opponent. And the more of your colour balls, the closer to that white target ball at the end of the end of the-- when all balls have been thrown, that tells you how many points you have. So, there's two reds closer than any of the blue at the end of the end, then that would be two points for blue. And each player gets to throw six balls in an end, and we alternate who throws out the white target ball, which is called the jack.

SO: It's almost like, the strategy sounds a bit like curling, only throwing, boccia balls. You know, at the end and, you know, getting to that point being closest. You've said it's...

LANCE CRYDERMAN: Absolutely.

SO: One of the most inclusive para-sports. What do you mean by that?

LANCE CRYDERMAN: Well, because of [unclear] impairment with cerebral palsy as extensive as this, I'm not going to be able to propel a manual wheelchair to participate in something like wheelchair basketball. I just don't have the movement or the ability to be able to compete in those kinds of sports. Boccia has been designed specifically for those with pretty limited mobility. And even if cannot through the ball physically with your hand or even your foot, you can use assistive devices along with an able-bodied ramp operator and be able to propel the ball onto the court using that device. So, it's an incredibly inclusive sport in that sense.

SO: You've got to have a great eye, though, I know, to get the angles.

LANCE CRYDERMAN: Especially those three ramp players in there. We have a great... and it's all about [unclear] and it's an incredible game to watch, for sure.

SO: Lance, you've credited your ability to get back into elite sport, as you say, with the support of your, quote, "Success army." Who's in the army and how have they helped you get to Paris?

LANCE CRYDERMAN: There's so many people. I could probably spend the next 20 minutes talking about them. But the success, for me, is made up of a group of people who have either, you know, been my cheerleaders and supported me if I wanted to push myself forward or even those who have challenged me when maybe I wasn't ready to push myself. I have some people in that success army that will give me that little push forward and force me to try things that are a little bit outside my comfort zone. Those people are incredibly important. But the cheerleader that I really talk about a lot is my wife, Danielle. She's been incredible support. I mean, she was a performance partner for the first few years when I came back. And now she's travelling, even as a spectator, just to watch me play games. So, it's just a wonderful feeling to have all these people. My wife, my father, all these people around me that really help me to succeed.

SO: May we all have success armies in our lives. You mentioned you're working at Laurentian University, but I looked at your Instagram and it says, quote, "I help teens and young adults with cerebral palsy to live a life of purpose and meaning." I wondered, Lance, is life coaching your kind of unofficial job?

LANCE CRYDERMAN: Yes. Yes. It's kind of a side gig, if you will. And I would love to be able to put more energy into that at some point. But yes, it's something that I'm very passionate about because I want people, young people with CP, specifically, to really recognize that even though we have all these challenges, we're really able to overcome them if we have the right mindset and the right support behind us. And if a mindset and support are in place, anything is possible and I'm living proof of that.

SO: You certainly are. And that mindset as an athlete propels you to go forward. You had your first match today. Tough loss, I understand, to Portugal. What are you thinking about heading into the next match?

LANCE CRYDERMAN: Well, you know, I think that things just need to be simplified. You know, I know that I'm able to compete and play at this level. And, you know, what has happened in the past is now in the past. And then we look forward to Hong Kong and play John from Hong Kong.

SO: John from Hong Kong. We'll be watching, Lance. And I'm not going to take any more of your time because you need to rest and get ready.

LANCE CRYDERMAN: Thank you very much.

SO: Nice to talk to you. Enjoy Paris and enjoy your competition.

LANCE CRYDERMAN: Thank you very much.

SO: Lance Cryderman is representing Canada in boccia at the Paris Paralympic Games. We caught up to him yesterday just after his first match. CBC is bringing you daily live coverage throughout the Paralympics on CBC TV, CBC Gem, the Paris 2024 website and the Paris 2024 mobile app. Coming up after your regional update. Sophie Gregoire Trudeau is a well-known personality, of course, a former broadcaster, yoga teacher, and she was married to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Her first book, Closer Together, is part memoir, part self-help book. It's not a break-up tell all.

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SOPHIE GREGOIRE TRUDEAU: I've met enough humans in my life to know that, yes, some will be trying to sniff out the gossip or the whatever. There's not much to sniff out, to be honest. You know, I'm in a family and I'm raising my kids, and I've had, you know, a partner where sincerity, open conversations, difficult conversations are at the core of who we are as a family. So, even if people dug and dug, there's not much, to be honest. And I feel that this space of calm inside me, most people sense it. And the ones who don't, well, it's okay, I can't control that.

SO: She talks more about life in the public eye, her personal life and life in polarized times in this country.

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SO: That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Susan Ormiston and you're listening to The Current.

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What Sophie Grégoire Trudeau did next

Guests: Sophie Grégoire Trudeau

SUSAN ORMISTON: I'm Susan Ormiston, and you're listening to The Current. When Justin Trudeau swept to power in 2015, his wife, Sophie Gregoire Trudeau, was front and centre at the victory speech.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Merci, Sophie. [French speech]

SO: And as you heard, her then husband thanked her for her strength and profound generosity, and she became one of Canada's most high-profile political spouses since her mother-in-law, Margaret, decades before. But before Sophie Gregoire Trudeau became the wife of, she was well known as a TV personality in Quebec who advocated for women's issues and mental health and taught yoga. Now, after a split with her husband, Sophie Gregoire Trudeau is returning to some of those themes in her new book called Closer Together. One of her goals, she says, is to help Canadians become what she calls 'emotionally literate.' Matt Galloway spoke with Sophie Gregoire Trudeau in April, and here's that conversation.

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MG: What's it like hearing those people chant your name?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Oh, it's not about the people chanting my name at all. It's about the energy that I remember. It's about serving each other. It's about the fact that, what, you know what Justin said in there, we could still tell each other. I think that we have so much to learn when it comes to relationships and how, you know, we don't have to slay a relationship in order to restructure it. And we can still have, be bound by love and respect and having each other's backs and hearts. I think that's what family is by and large.

MG: When you talk about slaying a relationship, I mean, that sounds like you're quoting Esther Perel.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: I am. I quote her often.

MG: She's... For people who don't know, she's a psychotherapist, but she's also a podcaster. And she says that most of us would rather kill a relationship than question or change its structure.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Did you read my book, Matt?

MG: I certainly did. Well, when you think of that, I mean, she's somebody that a lot of people turn to for relationship advice. How much of that applies in your own case?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: What do you mean, exactly?

MG: Well, I mean, when she talks about... many of us would rather kill the relationship, rather than question it or change its structure. How much of that applies in your own case?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Well, yeah, it absolutely applies because we are still bound by respect and love, and we have each other's backs and minds and and hearts. That's what family is. I think that, you know, romantic love is rooted in deep friendship. And sometimes when the relationship restructures itself, it doesn't mean that you have to create that much distance that you don't have that friendship anymore. But it's not easy because not everybody kind of evolves at the same rhythm emotionally. And we have to respect each other's boundaries. And it's a learning process. And sometimes it gets messy, like, you know, in all, in all family life. And it should be because it kind of makes us appreciate the better times.

MG: How are you doing in the wake of all of this? You've gone through a lot over the last few months, and it's been very public too.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: So, you know, when I think of my life, how I live in my daily life, it is not what people see in the media. And at 49, I have another understanding of, you know, having the world's gaze on your relationship or your partner's work. What I see out there doesn't correspond to what I live in my [unclear], you know. In my household. And when I'm running errands, when I'm giving speeches, when I'm meeting people. The love, the support, that understanding that we're all interconnected, that we are all suffering in some way or another. And we have to be very careful to not compare each other's suffering, because really, we're all one trauma away from each other. It takes one traumatic life event to change your mind, the way you perceive yourself and other people, or a series of chronic, you know, smaller traumas to affect in the same way. So, I raise my kids. I live not thinking that people who have titles and important position, and I've met so many of them throughout the planet, are more important. I've never believed that. I've never sensed that. The more I grow on the mental health, you know, path, the more I realise that we are so much more the same than we think.

MG: You know, people are going to pick up this book and they're going to be looking for some sort of story about...

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Gossip?

MG: Well, yeah, about the end of the relationship. And I know, I mean, you've said that you wrote the book and turned it in before all of this happened, but did you, given that, were you tempted to go back and add anything?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: You know, at some point you have to let go. And I put so much love and teamwork with all the experts that I interviewed in this book, that when the work is done, there is nothing more you can control.

MG: But, you know, what people, I just... the last point on that is that, you know, that people will be, will be reading the tea leaves. Kind of reading in between lines looking for something.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: So, I don't, I don't agree with you, Matt. I've met enough humans in my life to know that, yes, some will be trying to sniff out the gossip or the whatever. There's not much to sniff out, to be honest. You know, I'm in a family and I'm raising my kids, and I've had, you know, a partner where sincerity, open conversations, difficult conversations are at the core of who we are as a family. So, even if people dug and dug, there's not much to be honest. And I feel that this space of calm inside me, most people sense it. And the ones who don't, well, it's okay, I can't control that.

MG: I mentioned in the introduction that before you became known in that role, as somebody who was a politician's partner, that you had your own career. You had your own life. How much of that, of your own identity do you feel you had to give up when you took on the role of Prime Minister's wife?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: First of all, I never took on the role of anything. I don't take roles. I am Sophie, who I am, and I think that my friends throughout this whole journey have always seen the same Sophie evolving. I hope, becoming a better person. I hope. As I grow in age, and I hope a little bit of more wisdom and life experience. But I've never even seen, you know, my partner in the title or the job that he occupies. I don't define human beings according to what their work is. I accept and sense them and live with them according to how they treat people.

MG: Maybe outside of the work, I mean, just living a very public life where whatever you say, whatever you do, is going to be captured. You, I mean, in the book, one of the people that you speak with is Gabor Maté. And he was quoted elsewhere saying that you wanted to be free and not constrained. I just wonder whether you felt constrained in that.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: So, a couple of things here. First of all, freedom comes from within. And the more you grow in age, I think the more you sense this. And because I never defined myself as, you know, the wife of somebody or somebody in a role, you know, doing some type of function, I've never perceived myself that way. And I will always remember, Matt, at the beginning, people were asking me, How is it to be the wife of a Prime Minister? And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm just Sophie G in the house. I'm staying the same person. I don't change personality to adapt to, you know, different situations. I adapt to life. Yes. And I tried to remain open, but I don't define myself as a human being and as a woman in that way. So, when you tell me public life, it's a part of my life. But those couple of events where people see me in high heels because there's protocol and a nice dress, that's not my life. That's just a little percentage where I'm doing, you know, and I'm, and I respect the protocol that's being put forward. But other than that, that's not what my life looks like.

MG: Early on in your time in that role such as it is, there was, you'll remember this, there was public outcry when people found out that the government was paying the bill for two nannies to help look after your kids. Your kids were very young at the time, and there were a lot of different things going on in your life. How do you, when you look back on that now, what goes through your mind?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: That there's always a period of adaptation when you step into the political life, especially with young kids. And it's not planned, you know, pre-planned. It's not, there's not a book to follow. So, you're just kind of like, juggling all the balls and trying to figure out how to keep everybody safe, especially during travels. And I look back and I just think it is, it was what it was in that moment. And that didn't last for very long.

MG: What did you make of the controversy of it? The fact that people seemed to be outraged that the government, that taxpayers, were paying for help.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Well, that everything is of passage and that that would pass as well, and that we are good people and we’re here to serve. But that in some way, you know, you, somebody told me not too long ago, you know, did you develop a thicker skin? I don't think that's me. I don't think my skin is thicker. I think I've been sensing with all of my heart and my, and thinking with my mind, but I haven't been taking in kind of the negativity that can come with it, because all of it doesn't belong to me. And so, it is important in our own lives-- and I talk about this in the book-- that when we're surrounded by negativity, choose to bring your attention to nourishment. Choose to put in your body nourishing things and food. Choose to look after yourself when it comes to sleep and what you bring your attention to. Because what you, where you bring your attention to, energy flows. So, I think you have to develop discernment in your own life. And this is what I talk about in this book. That when we live in a society where, you know, self-betrayal is rewarded, when ageing is an insult, when we have to change ourselves physically and mentally in order to fit in, that is the opposite of authenticity. And as Dr. Gabor Maté says, We come into this world with the two most basic needs. All humans have these two needs: attachment, so to be taken care of. In the gaze, touch, presence, playfulness, validation of another. How you were kind of cared for by your parents from zero to three. And then you bring that wiring in your brain into your teenage years and your adult relationships, and that child is active your whole life emotionally. And then finally, authenticity. What does it mean to be authentic? It means that you can express your unique character, which is every human being on this planet, without having to adapt or change your behaviour in order to please or get love. But Matt, we all do it. We all do it because our inherent need is to feel loved, validated and seen for who we are. So, when you look at the state of the world right now, how many people are overwhelmed, tired, trying to make, you know, ends meet, who are losing sleep and having insomnia, who feel depleted and feel that they can't really, they're not empowered themselves to make change in their own family or community or society. As a mental health curious student for 20 years now, I am very concerned. And I've been talking about this for years. And unfortunately, it took a pandemic sometimes for, you know, for people to wake up and now look where we're at. Mental health issues are the number one cause of absenteeism. That's a hard work to say for me.

MG: Absenteeism.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Thank you. Good work.

MG: I mean, you trace this back to your own childhood. How would you describe the relationship with your parents when you were growing up?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: You know, in my early years, it's difficult sometimes to go back in our early years. If we would ask listeners right now, what are the, you know, sensory memories that you have? Smell, taste, hearing, sight, touch. You know, what do you remember from your childhood? I remember nature because I grew up in nature from like zero to four or five. I remember going on outings with my father. I remember laughter in my household. I remember being held, being loved. And I also, as I grew up, I also remember feeling like, as an only child, I was at the centre of my own parents dynamics and tensions in their own relationship. And trying to internalize that and save everybody. You know?

MG: You say you wanted to be perfect so that your parents didn't have to worry about you.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Yeah. I think every child kind of has that kind of struggle for, you know, on some level. And because I was an only child, I internalised it even more. And not to say that people who have brothers and sisters don't live it at that level. Not at all. But that was my case. Yes. Yeah.

MG: When did you, you've spoken about this extensively. When did you start to struggle with an eating disorder?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: You know what? It's such a tough question because when you are in the vicious cycle and in the addiction process, you don't, you're not starting to count, Oh, when did this start? You know? It was in my late teens, that I remember. And, you know, eating disorders are the tip of the iceberg. They're like any other kind of addiction compulsion. Whether it's sex, whether it's TV watching, whether it's yo-yo dieting, whether it's, you know, going from one relationship to the other. Somehow mental health is not just about the absence of mental illness. It's, we're all somewhere on that big circle of mental well-being. So, with eating disorders, it stems from a deep emotional longing that is not, that is not taking place. And so, when we think about trauma, it's not just what was bad that happened to you, and it's also what was good that didn't take place.

MG: Can you just go back to your own experience. There's a story in the book of what happened when you went to Paris with your family. Can you tell us that?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Yeah, so I remember kind of witnessing my own self in a situation where I was going through a purging episode, and I remember being, feeling so ashamed and feeling like, Oh, this is the last time. And feeling like if my parents saw me, Oh my God. What would they think? And I kind of, like, twisted my body around so that my feet would still be facing the front of the stool so that they wouldn't. Well, I'm not going to say the whole thing, because you have to read the book to understand the context, and I don't want that to be taken out of context. But it was a moment where I witnessed myself in a moment of suffering and, you know, kind of felt sorry for myself in a way, from the fact that I was suffering from eating disorders. And I wanted it to end. But as with any other compulsion, in my late teens, I was kind of stuck in that mode.

MG: When you started to speak out about that, what were you concerned about? About speaking publicly about going through something like that?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: That I'd never be hired again.

MG: That's what you were worried about?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Well, I mean, I was in television, right? And, you know, young television, a newcomer on the scene. And I was thinking, Okay, this, I know that it was the right thing to do. I knew that, but I was thinking there might be a price to pay for being that vulnerable and that honest. But I was ready to go for it. So, I did it, and it changed the direction of my life path and also my inner compass, in a way.

MG: How so?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Because it gave me the reassurance and the bond of trust with other people, that when you share your story, when you're being truthful, when you look at people in the eye with sincerity and integrity, people feel it. And it allows them to do the same. You know, Rose-Marie Charest, the great Quebec psychologist in my book, says that the most unhappy humans that she's met in her life are the ones who cannot trust in others. With Closer Together, in this book, I want to expand this circle of trust. Because people are becoming more and more untrustworthy of each other, and that is not our human nature.

MG: I'd said in the introduction that you were an advocate for emotional literacy. What does that mean to you?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: You know, emotional literacy is emotional leadership. It means being aware of why we feel the way we do, how we can intervene on our own emotions, and how we can cope better with stress and anxiety, insecurity and the uncertainty of life.

MG: So, if we were as as Canadians, more emotionally literate, what would that look like, do you think?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: When we become more of a leader of our own inner world, we move from the alert mode in our body and in our nervous system into a more secure mode. So, when I talked with the expert David Livingstone Smith on dehumanisation, he said that hate, you know, fear, dehumanising the other, and there are so many polarizing forces throughout this world and in our country as well. We cannot be naive. We have to look at them head on. If we go from that alert fear mode into a more relaxed state, we don't, we are not as threatened by the difference of the other. And look at our country. The diversity we have here is absolutely fantastic and everybody makes this country better with their own stories. But we have to continue to share our stories. We have to cherish the diversity of stories instead of being or feeling threatened by the other.

MG: There's also a lot of anger in the country right now.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Yes. And I, and it's understandable. Look at the state of the world. How can people feel that they have a sense of agency when we're facing humanity's greatest crises? You know, from climate change to polarisation in society to, you know, the depth of the abyss between the rich and the poor. And a lot of good people, I tell you this, and I meet them every day, are doing what, all that they can, sacrifices in their own family, devotion to service, to helping each other to create more justice in this world. And it doesn't have to be through politics. It can be through all other levels of life. And I think that when we start doing, you know, when we start having more peace within our homes, within our own bodies and minds, then it reverberates and it has a ripple effect outwards.

MG: How do you model that as a parent of teenagers?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Hmhm. Good question. You know, if parents are listening right now, I think that whatever you say to your kids are words. How you act towards your own self, how much compassion, patience, empathy, discernment you have over your own life is what they catch on. You know, they really latch to that energetically and they see it. They sense it. It's not perfect, right? We all mess up. And I think we should also admit our messing up to our kids. That we're not perfect beings. And parenting, and I talk about it in a whole chapter in the book with Dr. Shefali, is a relationship. It's not a role. And if we don't take care of our own egos and our own trauma as parents, well, then we leave an emotional, a very heavy emotional luggage to our own kids.

MG: You write in the book about, and we were talking about anger earlier, about seeing some of the anger. And it's not just online. Seeing it face to face. That the kids would see signs in car windows saying 'F Trudeau.' What did you say to them about that?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: It makes me sad. It makes me sad that there is so much confusion. It makes me sad to see that people, you know, have so much anger and fear. And that we have been taught in many ways to direct that anger and that fear at one person. And that there are forces out there that are really triggering on that message and really pushing that message.

MG: I mean, what do you make of the fact that it's really personal? He was here. The Prime Minister was here just a few weeks ago. And I asked him about this. I said, Why don't you think people like you?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: It's not personal, Matt. This is a, there are greater movements in our society that explain the human behaviour right now. And it would be irresponsible to analyze this as a constant personal attack, constantly and incessantly. Because as a mental health advocate, I now understand that, you know, people who feel insecure, people who need help, people who become angry, we have to support the feelings of insecurity that are the basis of that. And if we make people feel more secure because, by the way, on Abraham Maslow's pyramid, at the basis, you know, if you have a food on your table and a roof over your head, obviously, you know, it's so important to have those basic needs met. But if safety isn't there, it's game over. And safety is not just the absence of threat, it is the presence of connection.

MG: At a time when people are really angry, do you worry--there's a phrase toxic positivity-- that we ask people to find common ground and compassion for each other. But that's really difficult when, for very basic reasons, people are unhappy with each other. People are struggling. People are really frustrated. They're anxious. Do you worry about that sort of toxic positivity?

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: I am aware of it, as I've read upon it and made myself more educated on the matter. I think that, you know, when I look at life in general and from what I have learned on my own path, is that we don't come into life as human beings with our first inhale and our last exhale to be rosy, happy all the time. No. We come here to be conscious. We come here to become responsible of our own individualization process. And to become the creative person we're meant to be. So, I understand the suffering. I get it. And I want to help as much as I can. And it's only by coming closer together, which is no fluke that I chose that for the title of my book, that we will succeed at not being threatened by what we're facing as a humanity and by others' differences.

MG: At a time when people are divided, I mean, there's an election that's coming up, and I know, I just wonder, what do you think your role might be in helping to put forth what you're talking about? To help try to bring the country together in a really divisive time? In past you've been by the side of the Prime Minister and now you have a very different life.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: You know, I think that my focus, I'm not a politician, obviously. My focus will be on my work and how I can contribute. And it's always been clear to me that whether I was doing it, you know, on a volunteer basis through the co-political years or differently, my work stays the same and my movement from a place of integrity stays the same. So, I can't wait to meet people on the path. And I know it's not easy, but I hope that this book and the message in it, and the fact that people will feel safe enough to not only navigate its pages but find tools to feel better. That's what I want to do.

MG: Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, it's a great pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much.

SOPHIE GRÉGOIRE TRUDEAU: Thank you, Matt. You're welcome.

SO: Sophie Gregoire Trudeau's memoir is called Closer Together. Galloway spoke with her in April. That is our program for today. Stay tuned to radio one for Q. But before we go, it's the last unofficial weekend of summer. And earlier this summer, we asked you for your picks of the song that signifies the season for you, and there's time for one last song of this summer. This one is from Bonnie Miller of Vernon, BC. She writes, quote, "My choice would be All Summer Long by Kid Rock." Bonnie says, "It takes me back to my teen years in the Okanagan, making out on the beach." Whoa. She says, "There's many hidden coves on Okanagan Lake." Check it out. I'm Susan Ormiston in this week for Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and have a fabulous long weekend.

[Music: "All Summer Long" by Kid Rock]

Friday August 30, 2024 Full Transcript

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