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Front Burner Transcript for January 7, 2025

Host: Jayme Poisson

JAYME POISSON: Hi, I'm Jayme Poisson.

[Music: Theme]

JP: Yesterday, after months and months of speculation, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigned as Liberal leader.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: So last night over dinner, I told my kids about the decision that I'm sharing with you today. I intend to resign as party leader, as prime minister, after the party selects its next leader through a robust, nationwide competitive process.

JP: He went on to say that he had requested the Governor General prorogue or suspend Parliament until March 24th.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: This country deserves a real choice in the next election, and it has become clear to me that if I'm having to fight internal battles, I cannot be the best option in that election.

JP: Some of the more interesting remarks from the prime minister came after his prepared speech when he took questions from reporters. He talked about how his biggest regret was not passing voting reform legislation.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I do wish that we'd been able to change the way we elect our governments in this country so that people could simply choose a second choice or a third choice on the same ballot.

JP: He was asked about the event that really triggered the end game here, the firing/resignation of his former finance minister and deputy PM Chrystia Freeland.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I had really hoped that she would agree to continue as my deputy prime minister and take on one of the most important files that not just this government, but this country is facing. But she chose otherwise.

JP: There's a lot to get into over the coming days here. But today we wanted to have a conversation with a Liberal MP who has been calling for Trudeau's resignation for some time now. Wayne Long, MP for Saint John–Rothesay.

[Music: Theme]

JP: Wayne Long, thank you so much for coming on to Front Burner.

WAYNE LONG: Happy to be here, Jayme.

JP: So you have been calling for the prime minister to step down from leadership of the party since June. It's finally happened. What's going through your head right now?

WAYNE LONG: Well, you know, you kind of feel at times like the dog that caught the car. I mean, I was getting calls today of congratulations, certainly a lot of calls of support. But like, I don't... it's not something that anybody's celebrating, if you know what I mean. It's kind of a sad, reflective, appreciative feeling, all kind of rolled into one. I mean, I did call for the prime minister to step down. I saw warning signs with respect to his leadership long before Toronto–St. Paul's. And I thought somebody had to, you know, pull the fire alarm and at least start the discussion toward it. I mean, it was a lonely feeling. I thought I had a lot more colleagues with me at that point. But, you know, I quickly found out that sometimes it's lonely at the top, or the bottom I guess in my case.

JP: When you were speaking out about his need to go, were you getting pressure from your colleagues to, I guess, shut up, for lack of a better word?

WAYNE LONG: Well, some, yeah. Absolutely.

JP: What argument were they making to you?

WAYNE LONG: That you're being disloyal, that you have to stay with the team. We will only move forward if we do it together, and you're hurting the team. And, you know, clearly, I take exception to that. I mean, there was more than me in the end. But, you know, I would say that we're a better party, we're a better government, we're a better democracy if members can speak freely. There was nine of us, shortly after I did what I did in June, that signed that letter. But it was different. There was more, 'We understand.' There was more wink, wink, nod, nod. 'You're not wrong.' And that's when you know there's an undercurrent, even though many MPs wouldn't be public, but there was a clear undercurrent even at the end of June that something had to happen. And where we were as a party was untenable.

JP: The prime minister referenced internal battles a couple of times when he was speaking today.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: And it has become obvious to me with the internal battles that I cannot be the one to carry the Liberal standard into the next election.

JP: What did you make of that when you heard it?

WAYNE LONG: I didn't agree. I wasn't surprised to hear it, but if the prime minister says the reason he stepped down or was stepping down [was] because of internal battles, I'd suggest he should look externally to what is happening across this country. I mean, we are 16% in the polls. 80% plus Canadians don't feel he/we deserve to be re-elected. So he needed to -- which is really, I would argue, also part of the problem all along -- look outside the Ottawa bubble, get outside his immediate PMO circle, and actually understand what Canadians are saying.

[music]

JP: There was a moment during his remarks today, on Monday, when the prime minister seemed to self-reflect a bit. He talked about the need to bring the temperature down in Parliament and he talked about a fresh start. He talked about what he called a total lack of productivity in the House, the polarization of politics. And he said this.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Removing me from the equation as the leader who will fight the next election for the Liberal Party should also decrease the level of polarization that we're seeing right now in the House and in Canadian politics, and allow people to actually focus on serving Canadians in this House.

JP: Do you think that will happen? Will the temperature decrease? You know, what did you think when you heard him say that?

WAYNE LONG: I do feel that there will be a lessening of the ugliness that we're seeing now. I mean, it's, it's unbelievable to sit there, again as a backbench MP, and just watch the dysfunction in every corner of the House. Like nothing has gotten done. We can't move anything forward. We blame the Conservatives; the Conservatives blame us. We're surprised the NDP supports the Conservatives. But it is just, it's just unbelievable. So we do need a turning down of the dial, if you will. I believe new leadership can do that. I believe we don't need to take Pierre Poilievre's bait. I think the Liberal Party needs to show that we're the adults in the room, we're the adults in the country, and present a viable, progressive centrist option to Canadians. We can do that.

JP: And why do you think new leadership can do that? And, you know, why wasn't Trudeau able to do that? Like, why would his removal change that?

WAYNE LONG: Because he was out of gas. And when people tire of you and tune you out, you can't get that back. Like, you can't make people become untired of you, sadly.

JP: I take your point that there are cycles in politics and people tire of leaders. But there also is this kind of more vitriolic and angry element of this, right? Especially in recent years. I mean, there are flags all over this country that say F Trudeau. While he was skiing in British Columbia over the holidays, a woman literally told him to get the F out of B.C.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Haha. Have a wonderful day, ma'am.

SKI RESORT WOMAN: Yeah. You suck.

JP: Like, what do you make of that? Looking at his record, is this a fair response? Do you even kind of understand that level of anger? That is directed at him, right? It's directed at him.

WAYNE LONG: Well, I do understand it. And, yes, that was directed at him. But, you know, I was told to 'F off' this weekend walking into the local Sobeys. So people are angry. And incumbent governments are pretty much under attack right across the world. And I call a lot of it the COVID hangover. Obviously, there's an affordability crisis, housing costs, inflation, what have you. Is that every incumbent government's fault now? Like, when I heard and when I hear about you Liberals and inflation, well, like, there is inflation problems and affordability problems everywhere from the U.K. to Chile to the United States. So sadly, people are just angry. And I think that Pierre Poilievre plays on that anger. I think that he plays on that fear. To just gaslight a government that everything that's happening is their fault, is unfair. But that's where we're at right now.

[music]

JP: What do you think his legacy will ultimately be?

WAYNE LONG: The Liberal Party was, what, the third, the fourth party in the House prior to 2015. And Justin Trudeau came and gave the party life. He gave it hope. He built the party. And he was a progressive voice in our country and around the world. I think that he did wonderful things. You know, whether it was the, you know, the change of the Canada Child Benefit or the day care, the multibillion dollars invested in housing, the legalization of cannabis. I think history will judge him well. But it is unfortunate that this is the way it's ended. What happened today is unfortunate. I think those around him did him a disservice to not paint this picture clearer. But it had to happen.

JP: Sorry, not to interrupt you, but do you think the resignation that we saw today happens without Freeland? Right? Without the Freeland resignation.

WAYNE LONG: No. Not a chance. No. She was, Chrystia was our Nancy Pelosi.

JP: Yeah. Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that comparison made quite a few times.

WAYNE LONG: For sure.

JP: And I want to come back to her in a couple of minutes, [WAYNE: Yeah, of course.] because what I'd like to get into with you now is, what do you want to happen there. So Trudeau asked the Governor General to prorogue, basically suspend Parliament until March 24th, meaning that the opposition parties cannot bring forward a motion to take down the government. But also, that means that MPs are sent home, no committees can sit, bills won't be passed. And the criticism against this is that Canadians have lost their patience with this government. They want change. They want it now. And dealing with the incoming Trump administration's tariff threats should be the priority here, not a months-long leadership race. And given all of that and given that criticism, do you think prorogation was a smart idea here? And if so, why? If not, why not?

WAYNE LONG: Sure. I mean, from our standpoint, of course it was a smart idea. Because otherwise, most likely, public accounts would have got their motion to the House and voted non-confidence, most likely the end of January. Canadians deserve a choice. And with Justin Trudeau, we weren't able to offer that choice. So what prorogation does, it allows us to start a leadership contest, if you will. I would start the leadership contest immediately, and I would have the leadership race end, give or take, on March the 20th. Which, many would say, well, my gosh, that's not that long. Well, it's two months. Like, governments in the U.K. can change leaders and prime ministers literally in a day. So, I don't...

JP: [laughs] I'm not sure that's working out so hot for them [indistinct].

[laughter]

WAYNE LONG: Yeah, they've had about six in the last two years. But I don't believe-- or I do believe that we have enough time. We have eight weeks to reintroduce ourselves and our party to Canadians. And we have an opportunity with new leadership, new vision, new policies, and not being afraid to look at what we've done. And maybe, for example, maybe we need to reverse the consumer carbon tax. Maybe we need to say, great policy, wrong time and place, or great policy, we didn't do a good job selling it to Canadians. But we need to go back and not be afraid to say, look, we got this right, we got this wrong, but here's where we want to take the country. And what excites me is we can now offer a clear alternative to Pierre Poilievre. Like this upcoming election will not be on Pierre Poilievre's terms. He wanted to run against Justin Trudeau. He's not going to have that opportunity now. Canadians deserve to have a clear choice.

[music]

JP: Talking about those choices, several names being floated around here. In no particular order: former finance minister Chrystia Freeland; current Finance Minister Dominic LeBlanc; former Bank of Canada governor Mark Carney; Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly; Innovation Minister François-Philippe Champagne; Christy Clark, former B.C. premier. There could be others, of course, right? But who from that group would you like to see win? Or perhaps I didn't name someone there. Who do you think would give Canadians that choice that you're talking about?

WAYNE LONG: You didn't mention Anita Anand there, and I--

JP: I didn't, my apologies. Yes.

WAYNE LONG: No. No, no problem. You got everybody else. So here's what I would say. Leadership contests aren't about coronation, and sometimes leadership contests aren't just about familiarity. Like there could very likely be somebody else who has not really been involved, is not a household name, that's a proven successful business leader that has had success in other industries, that may want to put their name forward. Now, the names that you mentioned, I mean, clearly... I mean, Dominic LeBlanc who's a friend of mine, he's in the riding just north of me in Moncton. He would be an amazing leader for the country. Chrystia Freeland, you know, people know Chrystia Freeland, you know, obviously from coast to coast. Mark Carney is not just a name known in Canada but known internationally. So...

JP: But which one, which one do you... I mean, you must know them all. I mean, you do. You just said... You know, you must have been thinking about this over the last seven months. [WAYNE: Right.] You know, everyone I know is thinking about this. Like, who could give that to Canadians, what you're talking about here?

WAYNE LONG: I think any one of them could give it to Canadians. But I'm a free agent. I'm wide open. And I mean it. Like, some of these, some of these people running are friends, you know, but I want to see what they're, what we're going to do. What policies are they going to present? Are they going to move the party back to where it should be, which is centre left?

JP: What do you mean by that when you say that, centre left?

WAYNE LONG: When I say more centrist, I say more business friendly. And one thing that was abundantly clear to me, talking to businesspeople -- I was a former businessperson -- is that we were perceived to not really be user friendly, business friendly. Somewhat anti-business, anti-development. So, you know, they always say Liberals run on the left and govern in the centre. And, you know, we have swung, I would say, a little more to the progressive NDP side. There's a big gap right now. You know, the differences between, you know, Mulroney or Martin or Chrétien or what have you, weren't that wide. But the differences between like where Justin Trudeau was or the Liberal Party was, and where the current Conservative Party is -- notice I didn't say Progressive Conservative Party -- is very, very wide. So I think there's an opportunity to be in the middle and appeal to Canadians that are uncomfortable with some of Pierre Poilievre's policies and style and were also uncomfortable with Justin Trudeau's. I really think there's room in that middle and I think that's where the Liberal Party is most comfortable.

JP: What might you say to somebody who might be thinking to themselves, you know, we just heard a lot of that talk in the U.S. election. Right? There was a lot of talk about moving the Democrats to the centre, appealing to those voters that didn't want to vote for Trump, but, you know, could find themselves or see themselves in the Democratic Party. And it absolutely did not work out for them.

WAYNE LONG: Well, you know, I would argue it didn't work out for a variety of reasons. I mean, the Liberal Party-- or the Democratic Party, sorry, basically anointed Kamala Harris. There really wasn't a leadership contest where, you know, Gavin Newsom, or... I don't want to get the name wrong, Governor of Michigan...

JP: Gretchen Whitmer. Yeah.

WAYNE LONG: Gretchen Whitmer. Like, where they didn't have a chance to really run and compete and share ideas and, you know, where they wanted to take the party. It was somewhat of a coronation there. We don't want that to happen here.

[music]

JP: Basically, every frontrunner that we talked about today, save for Mark Carney and Christy Clark, have been very senior members of this government for a long time. I mean, Poilievre said that today in his video statement. He talked about how every Liberal MP in power today and every potential Liberal leadership contender fighting for the top job helped Justin Trudeau break the country over the last nine years. He referenced the carbon tax. He talked about housing costs and the $62-billion deficit. And so do you worry that like, these guys are too closely tied to this, that they won't be able to break free of it?

WAYNE LONG: Yeah, I do. I do. I do worry about that. That's why it's important to have a, you know, robust, open, transparent leadership contest, where we get a variety of opinions and styles and visions for our party and for the country. We shouldn't just assume that, you know, a fresh face will be a cure-all for the party. It goes deeper than that. So, you know, again, I view this as an opportunity for us to really step back and look at what we're doing. We don't have to be right all the time. We're not the moral authority on everything. And recognize that some things we didn't get right. But we still love our country. We've done great things for the country. But we're not afraid to say, we screwed up, we're going to change it, we're going to fix it, and we're going to make it better.

JP: I know that you are not running again in the next election -- unless, I guess, you've changed your mind today. Let me know. But um...

WAYNE LONG: [chuckles] Maybe.

JP: Yeah? For real?

WAYNE LONG: Well, I would say that, you know, depending on what I see out of a leadership contest, you know, like Frank McKenna always said, every screw has another turn.

JP: There we go. Mr. Long, we're breaking some news in this conversation.

WAYNE LONG: Not quite, but maybe.

JP: Tell me, what do you think the absolute best-case scenario at the end of this, I guess, you know, in an election that we will have at some point this year, is for the Liberals?

WAYNE LONG: To win government. I mean, to win again. We're past the point of even really saving the furniture until today. And our chances of being competitive and offering a viable alternative to Canadians has increased a thousand times over, whatever, seven hours ago. So, you know, you're in it to win it. You're not in it to finish second. But I do think if anything today, and I look at somebody, or not somebody personally, but, you know, you look at the Liberal Party in Ontario provincially, for example, that really is still in the wastelands. And that's what none of us wanted to see with us. So best scenario, of course, we win the election. Next best scenario is we live to fight another day. And we're right in the game moving forward.

JP: Wayne Long, I want to thank you very much for stopping by.

WAYNE LONG: Thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right. That is all for today. Quite an extraordinary day in Canadian politics. We're going to be covering this throughout the week, so please do tune in.

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Trudeau resigns. What's next for the Liberals? - Transcript

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