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Front Burner Transcript for May 14, 2025

Host: Jayme Poisson

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: I have accepted the Governor General's request to form a new government. And I share this responsibility with the members of Canada's new federal cabinet.

[Music: Theme]

JAYME POISSON: Hey everyone, I'm Jayme Poisson. Yesterday, Prime Minister Mark Carney's new cabinet was sworn in at Rideau Hall. Twenty-eight ministers, 10 secretaries of state. Among them are 24 new faces, but also a solid handful of the same big names from the previous government. What does it tell us about the government's priorities, and is it enough of a change from the Trudeau years? Plus, the Liberals gained a seat after winning a recount in a Quebec riding by a single vote. It's fueling conspiracy theories and misinformation about the electoral process that started well before election day. So I'm going to talk about all of this and more with Rosemary Barton, CBC's chief political correspondent.

[Music: Theme]

JP: Rosie, hey.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Hey, Jayme.

JP: So I know that you just talked about this new cabinet for, what, four hours on live TV, so we thought, hey, [laughs] why don't we make you come onto the show and do it again?

ROSEMARY BARTON: It was definitely more than four hours. It was definitely more than [laughs] four hours. [laughter] But yes, delighted to be here. Hello.

JP: Are you? [laughter] Thank you, thank you for coming. Um. All right. Cabinet ministers sworn in today. A core group of 28 ministers and then 10 additional junior ministers, I guess, called secretaries of state. These guys will not manage federal departments or attend all cabinet meetings, but they will be in charge of priorities like seniors and combating crime, stuff like that, is my understanding. And just to get rolling here, can you just tell me a bit about Carney's thinking on how he has structured all of this with these different tiers, which is different than the Trudeau government.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Yeah, it's different. It goes back to, uh, Jean Chrétien was the last one who had this kind of structure. I mean, you know, it it it matters and it doesn't. Um, in previous governments there have been parliamentary secretaries who sort of are in charge of other things and help ministers out. Um, this one, I think, was in part to try and get some new faces, additional new faces around the table and inside the ministry. Um, [clears throat] and in part, to put, you know, an accent on a couple of other issues. Um. These are not, uh, these secretaries of state are not people who will sit at the main table for cabinet meetings. There's a cabinet meeting on Wednesday. I would not expect them to be there. They weren't even behind the prime minister when he gave his press conference. Um, but they will have roles to play to support ministers.

JP: Gotcha. Now that we've done that, let's talk about who's in, who's out, what were the big moves, and what do they say about the direction and priorities of this government, in your view.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Um, I think that the, the goal here for the prime minister was to show change, right? He did need to do that. He said that in the press conference after, that there was a mandate for change that needed to be apparent in this cabinet. What he couldn't do, though, was kind of flush all of the experience that was around a previous cabinet table, and particularly in roles that are vital right now when dealing with the United States. So the finance minister, François-Philippe Champagne, who's actually never tabled a budget before, but has had many other portfolios around the cabinet table, is staying in that job. And I think that that, uh, speaks to sort of the priorities that the prime minister has around the economy and security. And so you saw some of those other jobs, um, David McGuinty, for instance, moved from public safety to defence. That's also all part of sort of the conversation with the United States.

JP: Mm-hmm. And I noticed Dominic LeBlanc, uh, his role changed a bit, right? You're responsible for U.S.-Canada trade and intergovernmental affairs. But maybe worth noting, he was sworn in first.

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DOMINIC LEBLANC: I, Dominic LeBlanc, do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear that I will truly and faithfully...

JP: Which I think, uh, signaled something or was an attempt to signal something.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Yeah, it is, it is the prerogative of the prime minister and his office to decide how-- the order of this. So, you're right, that was significant. Um, Dominic LeBlanc moving from international trade and intergovernmental affairs to this new portfolio of a minister responsible for Canada-U.S. trade, intergovernmental affairs as you said, and this ‘one Canadian economy’ that the prime minster has been talking about. So, a couple of interesting things about that. Canada-U.S. trade now becomes its own sort of job. Which makes a lot of sense, given that Dominic LeBlanc has worked, um, very closely with the secretary of commerce. Of course, LeBlanc was down there with the prime minister last week. The intergovernmental affairs piece is working with the premiers -- something that LeBlanc's been doing for a long time -- as is the one Canadian economy. That's about sort of finding ways to push through big national projects across the country. And it really speaks to, I think, Dominic LeBlanc's talents and skills as a politician. This is a guy who's good with people. He can get people on the phone, he can talk them into doing things, he can consider what they're saying and bring that back. He is very political. Um, and that's, I think, what this role is and that makes a lot of sense in many ways.

JP: Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly is out of her role. She moves to minister of industry.

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MÉLANIE JOLY: I am minister responsible for Canada economic development for Quebec regions. That's good? Thank you.

[applause, some laughter]

JP: Do we have a sense of how she might feel about this? Um, certainly foreign affairs is quite a high-profile position.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Mélanie Joly, um, as you know and I'm sure many people know, does have ongoing leadership ambitions, right? She's a young woman, um, who's come up through the ranks of the party, um, and has had lots of roles. Has had to rebuild herself a couple of times after some weaknesses, but certainly in this role as minister of foreign affairs, um, sort of gained new credibility. What she has not had is an economic portfolio, which is kind of a must if you're going to ever think about becoming the leader of a party or the prime minister of Canada. It's also a role where she can still stay deeply involved in the Canada-U.S. relations piece. The minister of industry, remember, will be in charge of steel and aluminum, uh, thinking about how to help those workers. Uh, the auto sector, building up those relationships.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: Our primary focus is on the economy and our primary focus is on a Canadian economy. And we are at the start of an industrial transformation, a transformation of this economy. And Madame Joly as Minister of Industry is going to help lead that in concert with the other members of the cabinet and, and myself.

JP: I think it's definitely worth us talking about Jonathan Wilkinson, natural-- former natural resources minister. He's-- He was out of the role today, and replaced by one of the newly elected members of Parliament, Tim Hodgson -- a Toronto area business exec, the former head of Canadian operations at Goldman Sachs. I believe he also worked as an advisor to Carney at the Bank of Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

TIM HODGSON: I, Tim Hodgson, do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will truly and faithfully, and to the best of my skill and knowledge, execute the powers and trusts reposed in me as Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. Thank you.

[applause]

JP: Is there a message being sent here? I know certainly there had been a lot of vitriol directed at Wilkinson from Albertans, who felt that he was an impediment to resource development in that role.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Yeah. And and, um, Jonathan Wilkinson, uh, put out a statement on social media before the cabinet swearing in got underway. Uh, did not seem, uh, happy, obviously. Seemed quite disappointed. Um. I think, from what I understand, there was a desire to start with a clean slate when it came to energy and the environment. That those files in particular had got really bogged down in not only the personalities, whether it be Steven Guilbeault or Jonathan Wilkinson, and also their connection to the former prime minister, Justin Trudeau, and the ways that, you know, many people in the West felt like the prime minister was trying to cap production or limit production in the oil and gas industry. Um. Mark Carney has talked about trying to create energy opportunities, whether it's through pipelines or other things. Um, and he wants to do it in an aggressive way, and he wants to do it in part to deal with all of this kind of unity issue in the country. So, um, I think he, he needed a fresh face there, as capable as Jonathan Wilkinson was. I do know that the oil and gas industry had been frustrated with Mr. Wilkinson, so there's some of that. This is a fresh face. This is someone who was also the chair of Hydro, Hydro One, so has experience in the energy sector. Has obviously the trust of Mr. Carney, given their previous relationship. Has business skills, given his experience at Goldman Sachs. So, I think this is really a signal that they are trying to reset the relationship on that front.

JP: Anyone else you think is really key here that we haven't talked about before we move on?

ROSEMARY BARTON: Um. Chrystia Freeland, maybe. Let's just mention her as another name of someone who, um, maybe was surprising that, that she is still in cabinet given that, you know, she was the one that sort of kicked off all the, the tumult to where we are. [JP: Yeah.] Um, now, there had been talk that she was not going to be in cabinet, that she was going to be offered an, an embassy job in an ambassador role. That didn't happen. Uh, she's staying in transport and internal trade. Um. You know, I think that's a recognition of her, uh, capability and her, uh, experience as well. And also making really sure that given the way Donald Trump talked about her just a week ago, that she's nowhere near, um, the details of that file, because that would just not be helpful.

[music]

JP: Big picture here. Um, now that you've talked about it for many, many hours, like, um, what do you think Carney was signaling, uh, with these cabinet choices, and with his press conference as well on Tuesday when he, like, was trying to explain them, right? What was-- what's like the big takeaway message about this new government that we saw today?

ROSEMARY BARTON: Um, that this is, um, that this is a cabinet that is built for the moment.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: We're going to deliver that mandate with a new team, purpose-built for this hinge moment in Canada's history.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Just the same way that Mark Carney told Canadians, he was built for the moment. That this is a ministry that is set to respond to, yes, to Donald Trump, but also to creating a much stronger, um, independent Canadian economy inside, um, the country. You know, he talked about, um, how it needed, as I said before, to signal change. So, he, he thinks that he struck the right note on that. You know, we'll see what everyone else thinks about it.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: We-- Canadians elected us with a mandate for change. So there is a great deal of change, uh, in this cabinet, by necessity. That's what Canadians voted for.

ROSEMARY BARTON: I also thought that he, um... you know, he did a good job there of saying that this is a real cabinet. You know, all prime ministers start off with that intention.

JP: Yes. Yeah.

ROSEMARY BARTON: And over time, decisions become centralized in the Prime Minister's Office.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: This cabinet is smaller and more focused than those of previous governments. It will operate with a commitment to true cabinet government, with everyone expected and empowered to show leadership, to bring new ideas, to have a clear focus and to take decisive actions to accomplish their work.

ROSEMARY BARTON: I also thought that he, with this cabinet, recognized that not everybody voted for them, and that this cabinet is now at the service of all Canadians. Um. And that was an important message to send. He brought in new blood. That was really important. He brought in people that are from diverse backgrounds and different places right across the country. Every region of the country, with the exception of Saskatchewan, has a full cabinet minister. And Saskatchawan has a secretary, a secretary of state. So it is broadly representative. Even if there's still lots of Canadians who don't see themselves in these people, it was at least an attempt to reach out after a very, uh, a very different kind of election that, you know, has left some fractures inside the country.

[music]

JP: So Poilievre came out after the announcements, obviously. But then after Carney gave his presser, Poilievre came out, uh, quite soon after. And I think it's probably worth noting here that this is the first time that we've actually seen Poilievre since the election in this kind of setting.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Yeah. He did a little scrum on his way in one day. [JP: Right.] But this is the first time he's done like a formal press conference, yeah.

JP: And just how would you describe what he did there? Spoiler alert, uh, he did not think that the cabinet signaled enough change.

[laughter]

ROSEMARY BARTON: Yeah, which I think is totally fair. Um. His-- The first words out of his mouth were, um, you know, quite magnanimous.

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE POILIEVRE: I'd like to begin today in English by congratulating the new ministers for their roles. It's literally a one-in-a-million opportunity. I think they have 40 ministers in total. And there's about 41 million people, so it's literally one in million to be a minister and a big accomplishment to get to that place.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Maybe conciliatory saying that, listen, our job is to hold the government to account. We're going to do that.

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE POILIEVRE: That doesn't mean we reflex-- we reflexively oppose everything the government does. When it comes, for example, to foreign affairs, if the government does a good job at defending our national interests in negotiations with the U.S., then we will support those efforts. And when they're right, we'll stand with them. When they're wrong, we will oppose them.

ROSEMARY BARTON: So that was all like, oh, who's this fellow? Um, and then [laughs] for the next 15 minutes, [Jayme laughs] it was, oh, this is Pierre Poilievre. Um, which was, attacking the choices, um, naming people. In particular, Steven Guilbeault.

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PIERRE POILIEVRE: Steven Guilbeault, whose radical green agenda would shut down all future developments in our resource industry, is still the minister responsible for Quebec.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Sean Fraser, [JP: Oh, yeah.] Gregor Robertson.

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE POILIEVRE: Well, what's his record on housing? Well, he increased housing taxes in Vancouver by 141%. And the result was that housing costs went up by 149%.

JP: He went back to Fraser, like, [laughs] multiple [ROSEMARY: Yeah.] times.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Multiple times. [JP: Yeah.] He caused all the problems in immigration and all the housing problems in Canada.

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE POILIEVRE: Sean Fraser is the immigration mini-- was the immigration minister who caused the immigration crisis, the housing minister who gave us the housing crisis, and now he's the minister responsible for addressing the Liberal crime crisis. It seems like he is the master at failing upward.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Like, I think those are all -- that's all fine, right? I fully understand and support an official opposition's job. And it is so critical, um, particularly after an election, to make sure that a government delivers on what they're doing. I just don't know that that was the right message for today. Um. You know, I would have expected him to sort of set the expectations for the cabinet. Okay, they've said this, I want to see -- I would like to see this and this and here's some more ideas they could, um, take from me, and I hope they can get there by this time, and if they don't, then, you know, we'll see how it goes. This is a guy who lost the election even though he improved their score. Uh, not only [unclear] count but also their votes. But he also lost his own seat. And I just don't know that, um, the the lack of humility that we heard from Pierre Poilievre on Tuesday, um, hits the mark right now. Um. You know, this is also after the prime minister told him directly, I'll hold a byelection for you. No games. Oh, by the way, stay in the house where you're living. We don't, we don't care. No big deal. And so to come out and just sort of, you know, attack people personally, I guess that's the point that I found kind of like, a bit weird. We'll see, you know, what he's like inside the House of Commons. We're not going to see that for, for months, [CROSS-TALK] you know--

JP: This summer at least, right? Yeah.

ROSEMARY BARTON: --because he's got to win this byelection. Yeah. Um. But it certainly signaled to me that Pierre Poilievre is not going to let this government off easily, and and nor should they. Um. But, you know, whether he can strike the right balance between accountability and partisan sniping, I think is still open for debate.

[music]

JP: Let's switch gears a bit here, uh, because I have to talk to you about the results out of Terrebonne, um, in Quebec this week. So this is a riding where the Bloc candidate was initially thought to be the winner, and then because the results were so close, a recount was ordered, and it flipped to the Liberals by a single vote. And just, how remarkable is that? Has that, like, has that ever happened before?

ROSEMARY BARTON: I'm sure it's happened before, but I actually asked Elections Canada, and they don't have enough... like, they don't, they don't have enough data to be able to give us that answer. It is, it is remarkably rare. That is, that is totally fair to say. Um. You know, recounts happen. Uh, and there are more recounts happening this week. But to flip a seat by one vote. I mean, that whole, you know, notion that every vote counts, like... but actually, every vote counts. And that is a pretty incredible outcome. That was accepted, right? I should point out, that was accepted by the Bloc candidate and the Bloc Québécois as well. Because this is a process that does not happen in a vacuum. Like, there are people there for each party going through the recount and the scrutineers.

JP: Yeah. And just to be clear, because I know there was some reporting about Elections Canada investigating after a voter in that riding came forward with this envelope, that there was a Bloc vote inside. [ROSEMARY: Yeah.] And is this over now? Is it a Liberal riding?

ROSEMARY BARTON: So from what I understand is they are, Elections Canada is still looking at that particular issue. I don't know really what judicial recourse could be had, right? If it's a mail-in ballot, it still has to get there in time. Even if there was a mistake on the letter -- like, I think we're getting into the weeds a little bit here now. Um. And I, and I, I don't know. Could there be another judicial recount? Maybe. I'm not sure anyone's interested in that, but, but we'll see. But, you know, this matters not just because, as I said, every vote matters, but it matters because of where the Liberals sit, um, in terms of how close they are to a majority.

JP: Right. So it brings them to 170, and they need 172 to form a majority. And as you mentioned, there are three other ridings being counted. And as I understand it, um, they currently have two of them. So they would obviously hope to hold them, but they could potentially pick up another seat in Windsor-Tecumseh-Lakeshore, right? Which would still not get them to a majority, but would get them like 171. Right?

ROSEMARY BARTON: Yeah, but you know what, what might get you to a majority is someone crosses the floor -- although that doesn't seem to be actively a conversation, just FYI. You know, there's been different reporting out there, but I can't find anyone who's been offered anything. And, uh, those conversations are very, very discrete, if, if they're happening, right. They would be very discrete. The other thing that you might do is you might try and um, well, you would make sure that someone else takes over the seat. The speaker job for sure. You'd make sure that a Conservative does that so that you can keep your numbers, um, to your advantage. So, yeah, I mean, is it the way you want to win a majority? By picking [laughs] away at recounts and judicial, um, flips? Probably not. But um, it does, again, bring credence to that, um, idea that this is a very stable and strong minority. [JP: Yeah.] It could not get more-- it could not get stronger as a minority. And so there is some, there is some leeway here for the Liberals in terms of governing.

JP: And just elaborate for me a little bit on that. I saw Jean Chrétien, former prime minister Jean Chrétien, today call it:

SOUNDCLIP

JEAN CHRÉTIEN: Virtual majority. You know, we're close to a majority, so it will be very stable.

REPORTER: Virtually a majority?

JEAN CHRÉTIEN: Oh, yes.

REPORTER: Yeah.

ROSEMARY BARTON: I don't think anyone else should say that.

[laughter]

ROSEMARY BARTON: Let's put it that way. I think Jean Chrétien [laughing] can get away [JP: Like, okay. Yeah.] with saying that. Yeah. But I wouldn't recommend that these new cabinet ministers or the prime minister start walking around as though this is a virtual majority. It is not. They still need to find the votes to get things done. And they need to do that to make sure that this very aggressive agenda, you know, federal regulations on interprovincial trade, middle class tax cut by July 1st, all these other things, happen quickly. So, they have-- they'll have to go out and find the people that will support them. I don't have any doubt that they'll be able to find two or three votes, right, on some of these issues. But they will have to do that work, and they'll have to, they'll to do that parliamentary work to make sure that there is reach-out to the other side. The prime minister has said he wants to do that, he will do that, but he's never done this before, you know? And he doesn't know how a minority government works. So we'll see how well they are at managing that.

[music]

JP: I do wanna spend a little bit of time on this, because I think it is important. Back to the recounts. They have fueled some suspicions that there is something untoward going on. I've been seeing accounts posting on X, for example.

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CONTENT CREATOR: One vote. We are being played. There's no other way to say it. We are being played. And there's no possible way that somebody can tell me that they don't suspect something's weird here. You originally lost...

JP: The Conservatives released a fundraising email last week saying, quote, "The Liberals are working to flip just enough seats to edge closer to a majority. We can't let that happen." It ended with, quote, "The Liberals are fighting hard to tip the scales." And I just... what generally has been some of the reaction to that email coming from the Conservative Party?

ROSEMARY BARTON: Well, I'll tell you where the reaction didn't come from, and that is from the Conservative Party. When, um, our reporter, Cat Tunney, reached out to them to say, like, what's up with this, there was no explanation for it. Um. There are, um -- it is, of course, a party's right to, um, be there for recounts and to make sure that the results are valid. That's why they have scrutineers from each party at those, um, at those counts. They have lawyers who represent them in judicial recounts. Um, but suggesting in some way that there is an attempt to flip the results and that Canadians should start doubting the results of elections, I think is very dangerous. It's particularly dangerous when we see what's happening south of the border, uh, the stop the steal stuff and the way that has sort of crept its way right through the electoral system in the United States. The difference here, and it's a big one, is that Elections Canada is an independent agency in charge of managing elections, including the vote, to make sure that it is trustworthy, well done, and that it is beyond reproach. That doesn't happen in the United States, right? It's every district and every state that does its own count. Um. So, you know. I, I think political parties have to be pretty careful when they start going down that road about, um, questioning results. You can, of course, legitimately contest results. But suggesting that a party is out to tip the scale, um, after the fact, you know, that seems to me like a pretty, a pretty shoddy way to fundraise.

JP: Yeah. Um. And I just, I think it's worth noting, the Canadian Digital Media Research Network found that narratives around election manipulation were on the rise here before [ROSEMARY: Yeah.] the election, including [ROSEMARY: For sure.] misinformation about voting process. And it found that while the majority of people were confident that the election would be held fairly, there were more conservatives among them who didn't think that. And of course, you'll know well, there were claims of fraud and unfairness when it came to Poilievre losing his own [ROSEMARY: Yeah.] riding. For example, these very unfounded allegations of Liberal riding manipulation. The boundaries were changed. It was not a Liberal, you know, political process. Also allegations of, like, immigrants flooding the riding with Liberal votes. Completely debunked. And this isn't really a question, but just probably a reminder that, you know, these are things to be vigilant about. Yeah.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Yeah, and I will say this, although the Conservative Party sent out that fundraising letter and didn't explain it, I have not heard from one leader or, uh, elected-- MP elect say those things out loud. Um, Pierre Poilievre is certainly not saying those things. He is not doubting or questioning the results of the election. I think that's important. [JP: Yeah.] Uh, maybe he should get his party to back off, but it is important to note that that is not something that we're hearing from politicians or elected officials. And that, too, is is, uh, reassuring, I think.

JP: Okay. Good note to end on. Rosie, thank you.

ROSEMARY BARTON: Thanks, Jayme.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right, that is all for today. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you all tomorrow.

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