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Front Burner Transcript for January 28, 2025

Host: Jayme Poisson

JAYME POISSON: Hey, everybody. Jayme here. So we are heading into a pretty intense news cycle. Canada is barreling towards an election, and Donald Trump's first few months in office will be eventful, to say the least. You might be listening to this right now because you searched for a show covering this stuff. Well, why not just hit that follow button and save yourself the search? Because we're going to do this five days a week. Follow Front Burner and don't miss an episode.

[Music: Theme]

JP: Hey, everybody. I am Jayme Poisson, and today on the show I am speaking with Liberal leadership candidate Karina Gould. Karina, hey. Thank you so much for coming on to the show.

KARINA GOULD: Thanks for having me.

JP: So Karina was elected as member of Parliament for Burlington in 2015 at the age of 28. It wasn't long before she ended up in cabinet. In fact, she was the youngest ever woman named to cabinet, and the first and second ever active minister to take maternity leave. Karina has played a number of roles in the Liberal government, including Minister of Democratic Institutions, Minister for International Development, followed by Minister of Families, Children and Social Development. All before becoming government House leader. She is now 37 years old, and if she wins the Liberal leadership, she'll become Canada's youngest ever prime minister. Thanks so much for being here.

KARINA GOULD: Thanks for having me.

JP: So you have been a member of Parliament, as I said, for about a decade; a cabinet minister for about eight years. But I actually don't know a ton about you outside of those roles, and I wonder what you would want people to know about you.

KARINA GOULD: I'm a mom of two. I grew up in Burlington, Ontario. You know, went to McGill University, graduated at a time when we were in a financial crisis, and so know what it's like to struggle to look for a job. I have never had a job where I qualified for E.I., like so many people in my generation. And, you know, really, I mean, the thing that drives me and motivates me and inspires me every day, is I got into politics not to be somebody, but to do things. And to really ensure that I'm doing what I can to make Canadians' lives better. And so the thing that I'm most proud of as, you know, the role that I've had in the last ten years, is when I was the Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, and signing the childcare agreements across the country and bringing affordable child care to Canadian families.

JP: Tell me a little bit more about why that was so important to you.

KARINA GOULD: Well, child care is not just a social program, it's an economic program. And it is one of the most important programs to get women into the workforce. And it's one of the things that when I decided to run in 2015, the first roundtable that I had was with young moms in my community. And the number one thing they told me was that child care was too expensive. They were, you know, women who were in professional careers. They were saying, you know, they have this education, they have this great experience, and now they're having to make this choice about whether they get to continue in their careers or not [JP: Yeah.] because the cost of child care is basically their take-home pay. And all of a sudden, this kind of promise that they had been sold that they can do it all, wasn't turning out to be a reality. And so it is a huge economic driver. I mean, in the year after Ontario brought in affordable child care, 100,000 more women joined the workforce. Like, it is something that is so important, not just on an individual and family level, but it's also important for our overall economy. So it's something-- I always like to say, it's like a home run. It's good for our kids, it's good for our families, and it's good for our economy.

JP: I'm curious why you've decided to throw your hat into this Liberal leadership race. I heard you say that you had a conversation with former prime minister Jean Chrétien.

KARINA GOULD: I did, yeah.

JP: Yeah. And then when you came out of that meeting, you decided that you were going to do it. You want to tell me a bit about [KARINA: Sure.] that meeting, and just why, why it is that you want to do this now?

KARINA GOULD: Yeah, so, as I was saying to you before, I only decided to do this about ten days ago. [JP: Yeah.] I'm not someone who has been planning or organizing for months or years. But when it became clear to me that the prime minister was resigning, I started to really think about it. So it was actually prime minister Chrétien who reached out and asked for the meeting. And so I, you know, I feel like when prime minister Chrétien asks for a meeting, you go and take it. And I asked him, you know, what his thoughts were, and he said that there is such a huge opportunity for us as Liberals right now to re-earn the trust of Canadians, to re-engage them, and to have a real shot at winning the next election. And he really encouraged me to go for it. So, you know, it was after that conversation that I kind of said, yeah, you know what, I'm going to do this, because I think it's time for a new generation of leadership, I think it's time for new ideas, and I think it's time for some new energy in this race as well. And I think ultimately what Canadians are looking for is hope and for optimism. And I think that's something that I bring to the race.

JP: I want to come back to new ideas in a couple of minutes. But first, I've heard you say repeatedly that Canadians have lost trust in the Liberals, since you launched your campaign. And just explain to me why you think that they lost, they've lost trust in the Liberals, but also why you're the answer to that. Because I guess the counter would be that that's you, right? You've been in that party since 2015. You've been a cabinet member, [KARINA: Yeah.] pretty high up.

KARINA GOULD: Yeah, and those are all fair things to say. What I would say to that is, you know, like any of your listeners, when you're a member of a team, you bring forward your ideas, some of which go forward and some of which don't. And, you know, I would say that I think we started to really lose trust from Canadians at the tail end of the pandemic, where inflation was starting to go up and actually had increased a lot, and Canadians were saying to us, like, things are too expensive. I can't afford my mortgage. My rent is out of control. The grocery bills are too much. And eventually we got there, but at first we were kind of like, look at all the great work we just did in the pandemic. You know, look at all these great benefits that we put in place before the pandemic. Which all of those things were necessary and we had to do, but Canadians were saying to us like, but hey, listen to me right now. Like, that's great that you did those things, but what about today and what about the future? And it took us, you know, six to eight months to kind of hear where Canadians were at, and I think we really lost that trust. And this is where as a government, like you always have to be focused on what Canadians are telling you in that moment, and you have to be able to adapt. And I don't think that we did that quick enough. And that's something that is part of my own personal reflection of, you know, what kind of a politician do I want to be? What kind of a leader do I want to be? And it's not about, you know, what we've done in the past. It's, are we understanding your present, and how are we going to build onto that for the future?

[music]

JP: On this issue of maybe not understanding where Canadians were in the moment coming out of the pandemic, do you ever go to the PMO and say, look guys, I think that we're screwing up here. I think that we are talking a lot about how everything's great, and young people can't afford to pay their rent, not even, not to mention buy a house, right? Are you voicing these concerns in the--

KARINA GOULD: Well, that's part, like that's part of your job as a cabinet minister, right? [JP: Yeah.] And so we also have something called cabinet solidarity. So we have these discussions at the cabinet table. And again, you know, sometimes you put your argument forward, sometimes you win that argument, sometimes you don't. But, you know, I've been very clear that, you know, our job is to listen to Canadians. And sometimes, you know, we've gotten that really right. But sometimes we haven't, and I think it's okay to acknowledge that and to pivot and to change course.

JP: I want to say this with the caveat that I know we're early in this process, and you decided to run [laughter] for leader ten days ago. [KARINA: Yeah.] But you have actually released a couple of policies that you're interested in pursuing and also walked back from some others. And just if you could explain to me what they are. Like what is it that you want to do right now for Canadians?

KARINA GOULD: Yeah, so I mean, I am early in this process, so I will be coming out with a more fulsome, you know, platform moving forward. But I've also thought about things that I like that we've done and things that I would have done differently. Look, number one right now is we absolutely need to ensure that we are protecting our economy from Donald Trump. That is paramount. And that means a united Team Canada approach, and it means everything on the table when it comes to protecting our economy. But one thing that I also think is really important is that we also need to ensure that Canadians can weather this storm. I mean, we might be talking about hundreds of thousands of people who could be losing their job. And if there's one thing we learned from the pandemic, it's that our social safety net is insufficient when it comes to this. And we didn't actually take those lessons from the pandemic and apply them and update our social safety net. We need a social safety net, or a trampoline as I would like to call it, that doesn't just catch you, but also helps you rebound and lift back up, but for the 21st century. The models of the '80s and '90s, they don't work in 2025. The other thing that I committed to early on was cancelling the increase to the price on-- the consumer price on pollution that's scheduled for April 1st.

JP: Yeah. Also known as the carbon tax.

KARINA GOULD: Also, yeah. And so, again, this is something where the carbon tax, the price on pollution, is responsible for 10% of our emissions reductions. It's an important part of our plan to fight climate change. But Canadians are saying to us, like, they can't afford for it to increase right now. [JP: Yeah.] And so I think we need to listen to them on that. And if we are going to change it, we need to figure out what that change looks like to make up for that 10%. But in the immediate, we can just say we're not going to increase it. Because we're listening to people.

JP: What does that change look like to you?

KARINA GOULD: Well...

JP: Like, what would you replace it with.

KARINA GOULD: Yeah, so the first thing is that, you know, just because Canadians don't like the carbon tax doesn't mean they don't care about climate change. And what I know of Canadians is that fighting climate change is something that is really important to them and they do really care about the environment. And individual Canadians are actually already making choices about how to reduce their emissions. But some of those things are very expensive for people. So if you want to buy an electric vehicle or a hybrid vehicle, that's very expensive. So I'd like to not just bring back the rebate for EVs and hybrids, but I'd like to increase it so that Canadians can actually make those choices that they want to make. And I would include gas hybrids in that as well, because everything that we're doing to reduce our emissions is a step forward. And I would also bring back the home energy retrofit program. You know, this is a way for people to not only reduce their emissions, but also reduce their energy bills.

JP: Right. You install a heat pump, [KARINA: Yeah.] you change your windows out.

KARINA GOULD: Or you get insulation in your house, right? Like, these are things that actually make a difference for people, so I want to make it more affordable for them to make those choices. And then when it comes to big polluters, they also need to pay, right? Like it shouldn't be free for them to pollute.

JP: I just want to be clear here.

KARINA GOULD: Yeah.

JP: Are you on your way to eliminating the consumer carbon tax, or do you just want to freeze it and keep it where it was?

KARINA GOULD: Well, the very first thing we need to do is freeze it. I think we also then need to have a conversation about if we are to replace it, what we would replace it with. So I'm not prepared to eliminate it entirely right now, but I think it's a conversation that we need to have.

[music]

JP: I just want to come back to what you were saying about social safety nets, what could happen if these tariffs come and we are in recession. [KARINA: Yeah.] First of all, just if you could explain to me a little bit more about exactly what that would look like, what kind of government intervention you think might have to happen, why your government didn't make those fixes to those nets earlier. And also, like are our books in order to be able to pay for that, right? I mean, certainly one criticism of your government is that they have spent, they have spent too much.

KARINA GOULD: Mm-hmm. Look, that's all, those are all fair comments. There's a lot of conversation right now about balancing the books, and I think that is a reasonable conversation to have. Except if we are in this extreme economic situation where, like, let's be honest, when we say 'balance the books,' that's a lot of cuts, right, that would be coming to government programs and services. And I think there's a lot of stuff that we can do in Ottawa to streamline and to make things more effective. And I think we have to have an honest conversation about what are the things that the federal government should be funding, and is it federal jurisdiction or not? And one of the things that we did in the pandemic that I was always vocally opposed to was the amount of money that we sent to provinces and territories. Like, we have balanced the books of provinces and territories in this country on the federal balance sheet. And, you know, that is something that I think we need to be concerned about. We need to make sure that, you know, federal programs and federal areas of jurisdiction are running smoothly. I think that's the basic reasonable expectation that Canadians have of their government. But we also have to be prepared to spend in a way that would support Canadians weather this storm. I mean, you know, I talked about the fact that when I graduated from university, it was during the 2008 recession. Well, it was really hard to find a job [JP: Yeah.] at that time, you know? And for people in our age group, like, it set them back years, right, in terms of their parents. And so we need to ensure that we're not doing that to the next generation. So we need to make sure that those businesses that depend on trade with the United States -- and it's not just the ones that depend. It's all of the businesses around them too, and the organizations around them that we need to be able to keep going to get through this trade dispute. And I know that Canada will come out victorious. Because it's not just because we're tough, but we're smart. And we're going to be very smart about how we do this, but let's make sure that those businesses, those organizations are still there at the end of the day, that when we win this, people have jobs to go back to.

JP: Okay. I just want to say, I imagine the premiers won't like that comment that you made about how too much money went to the [laughs] provinces. Yeah.

KARINA GOULD: You know what? Fine. Except that they still didn't do the things that people expected with that money. Right? Like in Ontario, they've got tons of money for the health-care system, and people still don't have access to a family doctor. So, some of that onus needs to be on them. And when it comes to crime and security, we've given Ontario a ton of money, and yet their courthouses are falling apart. Their prisons, there's multiple people -- two a bunk. You know, they need to take responsibility for those issues. We, as the federal government, should work in partnership with them, but we shouldn't just underwrite their balance sheet so that they don't do work with the money.

[music]

JP: Your opponents in this race for Liberal leader. The most high-profile ones are obviously Mark Carney and Chrystia Freeland. Carney has led the Bank of Canada, the Bank of England. He was the UN special envoy to climate. Freeland has spent five years as deputy prime minister, four years as finance minister. Before that, she was foreign affairs minister. And she played a key role in negotiations in NAFTA with the last Trump administration. Not to undermine the very long resume and impressive resume that you have, but what would you say to someone who might be thinking that they just have more experience than you at this moment? You are 37.

KARINA GOULD: Yeah, sure. Um. Look, I think they're both great, and I think having the three of us and the others that are in the race is only a good thing for the Liberal Party of Canada. And, you know, I hope that when I win this race, they're both on my team, um, and bring that experience to bear. But what I would say is that when I was 28 and running for office, people also said to me, hat experience do you bring to the table? And I wouldn't be here if I had listened to them ten years ago. You know, what's really important is that whoever is putting their name forward is doing this because they have leadership qualities and they can bring people together and they can stand up for Canada. And, you know, I have more political experience than one of the contenders. And this is... this is a political moment. Not only do we need to stand up to what's happening from south of the border, but we have to win the Canadian election as well. And I've won three elections in Burlington. I know how to do this. And I have experience as both a politician and a cabinet minister. And for the last 18 months, I've been standing up to the bullies on the other side of the aisle -- very effectively, I might add -- on behalf of Canadians. So I've got a lot of experience. And the other thing is, I actually know how to get things done in government as well. And it's a very different... You know, politics and government is different from anything else. And I appreciate, you know, all of the experience that comes from having been outside of government or outside of politics. But politics is a different thing, and you need to know how to navigate some very tricky situations. And that's something that I'm very good at.

JP: So I suppose that's your argument for why you and not Carney, right? But what about Freeland? What's your argument for why you and not Freeland?

KARINA GOULD: Because I think... Well, look. Again, she's great. We've worked together for a long time, and I have nothing opposed to either of them. And I hope whoever wins, we all unify behind them. But I think I bring something different. I bring a different energy. I am able to connect and relate to everyday people because I am an everyday person, and I understand what people are living through in this exact moment. You know, I take my kids to school in the morning, I do the groceries. You know, I have to figure out, you know, paying for after school activities and talk to people about what's going on in their lives. And recognize that, again, you know, we need to ensure that it's not just about, you know, the high-level policies and, you know, meeting specific economic targets. Because that actually has a real impact on people's day-to-day lives. And, you know, when it came to interest rates and inflation, we have to remember that it is humans in our country that are impacted by that, and we need to ensure that, again, every policy decision that we're making is looking at and thinking about, how does this impact the person for whom we're trying to make a difference?

JP: Is the implication there... well, I guess we're talking about Freeland in particular. That she is not like an everyday person? That she's not in touch with--

KARINA GOULD: Well, like, I'm not going to, like, say anything about either of my colleagues. Again, I think they're great. And I think that it's only a plus that you have three different people who have three different backgrounds running for the Liberal leadership, and I think we each bring something to the table. But what I do bring is I think someone who is close to the grassroots, someone who is close to people in their everyday lives, and I think that sets me apart.

[music]

JP: You know, if you listen to all the political commentators, they will say that the two front-runners are Freeland and Carney right now.

KARINA GOULD: Sure. Yeah.

JP: And some of them will say that because of this moment, because it's such a short window, because of the threat from America, because of the fact that, you know, people are building a plane in the air here, they're basically also having to introduce themselves for an upcoming general election. [KARINA: Yeah.] That everybody else should kind of get of the way here, and let them make their case to Canadians. Yeah. What would you say to somebody that's like, you should, maybe you should think about bowing out so that they can get as much airtime as possible to tell Canadians what it is that they want to do and why they should be the leader and then the prime minister.

KARINA GOULD: Well, because I have important things to say on behalf of Canadians, first of all. But we haven't heard enough from any of us yet about what our policy positions are going to be, about what our vision is for the party and for the country. And we are running to be both the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada as well as the prime minister. And, you know, I think it's so important that Liberal members and Canadians get a chance to hear from us and to test out those ideas. I mean, we live in a democracy. So let's, you know, have that debate. I think one of the challenges for Kamala Harris in the United States was that she didn't have a chance to kind of, you know, push out her own ideas. I mean, because it happened so quickly, she was really running on Biden's platform. And I think we actually have this runway and this opportunity to have a debate and to have conversations, and for people to make informed choices about what we stand for and therefore what they stand for. And I think that's only a good thing. And then the other part is we should all be excited to have those debates, because if we are going into an election very soon, we're going to have to debate other politicians who are putting forward other ideas. And so this is a great way for us as Liberals to figure out where we want to go in the future, but also to then learn and get that experience for when we go into a federal election.

JP: That's interesting to hear you say that you think one of the reasons Kamala Harris lost was that the time frame was too short. What would you make of the argument that they also made very conscious decisions to run the campaign that they did, a campaign that, you know, many people will say didn't actually promise people anything that would make any real material change in their lives, and instead, they tried to get these kind of Trump voters, right, by tacking further to the right, and it didn't work for them?

KARINA GOULD: I would totally agree with that. I think that, you know, again, for some people in the Liberal Party of Canada, they think that we do need to move further to the right because they think that people are turning to the right in terms of turning to Poilievre. I don't think that a lot of Canadians are necessarily turning to Poilievre -- I think they've turned away from us. And so from my vantage point, it's, again, like, we're only going to win the next election by being Liberals. Not by being Conservative Lite, not by being Pierre Poilievre. And again, like it's about re-earning that trust. People want to know who you are and what you stand for. I think that in today's day and age, like, there isn't room for politicians who aren't authentically themselves and aren't being upfront with what their positions are. And I think that's one of the things that people are looking for. They're kind of sick of, like, you know, pre-written speeches and... you know, it's one of the reasons why I think people listen to podcasts is because they want to hear an honest conversation. And it's not necessarily that they're going to agree or disagree with the position, but they're saying, like, are you being you? Are you being authentic and can I trust what you're putting forward?

JP: On this idea that people are not necessarily going towards Poilievre but turning away from you guys. I'm not saying I think that's wrong, but certainly I have talked to people across the country, as I'm sure you have too, who really do feel like he has been dialed in on their concerns for a long time now. That he's like mirroring back to them [KARINA: Yeah.] how they, how they're feeling. [KARINA: Yeah.] And they do like him. Like, they do. And so what would you say to that person who is planning right now to vote for him and this iteration of the Conservatives?

KARINA GOULD: I think... So again, this is actually something where I think as Liberals, we have to do a better job of not, like, pointing out to people that they're making bad decisions by supporting somebody else. Because... Like, just a quick story, that when I was running in 2015 for the first time and knocking on doors in my community, I often say to people that I left that election less partisan than I began it. And I'm a partisan, I'm a Liberal. But I understood why people were making the decisions that they were making and why they were perhaps supporting a different political party and not mine because of their lived experience and their beliefs there. And so, you know, I don't think there's... like, people are making their decisions based on what they think is best for them and their families and their circumstances. So I understand that. I think the big difference with Pierre Poilievre is that he is taking people's anger and mirroring it back to them and not actually offering real solutions. That's an easier way to campaign, right? Like on anger, on fear, than like, absorbing people's feelings and then offering real solutions, and doing it in a way that's hopeful and optimistic.

JP: Like, you don't think his housing plan is real? What he's saying [unclear].

KARINA GOULD: I don't think it's a good housing plan that he's putting forward. I don't think that it's going to actually build more houses because you have to work with municipalities and other partners to do that. And just by like saying, you know, bad things about mayors and saying, you know, we're not going to give you any funding unless you build the houses, well, they need that funding to build the houses. So, I don't think it's a good plan. It might feel good when he says it, but it's not actually good policy.

JP: Okay. Karina Gould, thank you very much for being here.

KARINA GOULD: Thanks for having me.

[Music: Theme]

JP: All right, that's all for today. I'm Jayme Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow.

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Liberal leadership hopeful Karina Gould - Transcript

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