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The AIH Transcript for September 10, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: No safe place. After a deadly Israeli strike inside a humanitarian zone in Gaza. An aid worker lays out the challenges of operating and living in a place where bombs can drop anytime, anywhere.

CH: Hope springs paternal. A Toronto man is proud that his father is part of the Venezuelan opposition challenging Nicolas Maduro. But with a crackdown underway, he's also worried for his safety.

NK: He calls them like he foresees them. Historian Allan Lichtman has a stellar track record of correctly predicting the outcome of U.S. presidential elections. He'll throw some light on this year's matchup and throw some shade at a rival.

CH: Tears of joy. After a terrible accident on the job a former high voltage lineman becomes the recipient of the first ever whole eye transplant. And he'll tell us what that surgery has meant to him.

NK: Watching the world go by. A Jupiter space explorer does a flyby of earth gathering data along the way. And what it has discovered about the planet's liveability will probably ring true for those of you who live here.

CH: And healthy, squelchy and not necessarily wise. Well, ask the wide receiver for the North Country Mud Crocs. What draws him and his team-mates to play football in knee deep sludge at the mud bowl every year. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition radio that assumes he'll plead the filth.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Al Mawasi Strike, Lichtman Prediction, Mud Bowl 50th Anniversary, Juice Earth

Al Mawasi Strike

Guest: Shaina Low

CH: Where there were tents, there is now a crater. According to Gaza's health ministry, at least 19 people are dead and 60 more injured after an overnight strike on Al-Mawasi. The area was dubbed a humanitarian zone and is the site of a tent city temporarily housing hundreds of thousands of displaced Palestinians. The IDF has called the attack, quote, "a precise strike on a number of senior Hamas terrorists it says were directly involved in the execution of the October 7th attack". It also says they were operating a command centre from inside the humanitarian area. The situation underlines the obstacles facing Gaza's displaced residents and the organizations that serve them. Shaina Low is with the Norwegian Refugee Council. We reached her in Amman, Jordan.

NK: Shaina. As you well know, this is not the first time Al-Mawasi has been attacked. There were multiple strikes throughout this year, including one in mid-July that the health ministry in Gaza says killed 90 people. How does your organization, how do your staff members operate inside Gaza when you have that kind of instability? To put it mildly.

SHAINA LOW: It's really challenging for us operationally in Gaza. First of all, the vast majority of our staff in Gaza are from Gaza, so they are worried not only about themselves, but about their families and their friends and keeping people safe. But then on top of that, Israel constantly issuing relocation orders, there were 16 alone in the month of August, means that people are constantly on the move. And in some cases, that includes our staff and our offices. And so that means that we're devoting a tremendous amount of time to developing contingency plans in order to remain operational. And that's really time and resources that we would much prefer to devote to serving the people who are also in need.

NK: You mentioned the relocation orders. I wanted to ask you about that. How are people, based on what you're hearing, how are Palestinians there responding at this point when there have been 16 directives, as you said, just in August? What do they do when they hear one of those directives?

SL: Well, it used to be that people would have 24 hours or at least a few hours to flee. What we're seeing now is that people may have a couple of hours alone. In order to flee, they don't have time to arrange transportation. They're literally grabbing whatever they can carry and trying to find some safer place to seek shelter and refuge. And what that means is that Palestinians time and time again are having to start over from scratch, seeking out new forms of shelter, seeking out new assistance. Some of our own staff members at NRC have been displaced 10, 11 times. And so, for each movement, it's a disruption. It means trying to find a new place to settle and trying to find access to the limited aid that exists. Our own staff was forced to flee our office with only two hours’ notice back in August when the relocation directives were issued for an area within only a couple hundred metres of our premises. And so for 10 days our staff and their family members, about 100 people were living together in Al-Mawasi, sharing five tents and waiting until, for the first time ever, Israel actually rescinded the relocation order and we finally could assure our staff that it was somewhat safer to return back to Deir al Balah and resume activities as normal.

NK: As those directives come through. Is it at that point where people are asking, is there a point to relocating to places like Al-Mawasi if this can happen there.

SL: I mean, everyone knows that there is no safe place in Gaza. The only way that we know that we can protect civilians is by reaching a cease fire deal, releasing the hostages, ending hostilities and allowing people to start rebuilding. But in terms of seeking shelter, the conditions in Al-Mawasi and other places are just unimaginable. The density in Al-Mawasi right now is 30 thousand Palestinians per square kilometre. People are packed in. There are very little facilities in terms of latrine, sanitation, access to clean water. People are getting more and more squished in this tiny space which Israel has unilaterally designated a humanitarian zone, but that really is in name only. That space is now only about 13 per cent of the Gaza Strip.

NK: Israel's Defence Minister, Yoav Gallant, told reporters today a six week pause in fighting is possible but again would not commit to a permanent cease fire. Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, is insisting that Israel remain stationed in the Philadelphia corridor along Gaza's border with Egypt indefinitely. Given those statements and what you've seen over the months now, is hope a word that you still hold on to? Is that a feeling you still hold on to that the fighting is going to end even temporarily?

SL: We don't really have any alternative at this point unfortunately. After more than 11 months of hostilities, more than 11 months of displacement, death, destruction, we have no choice but to hope for a cease fire. But there's more than just hope. We need to have people continuing to pressure governments to put pressure on the parties to the conflict to come to an agreement, to end the suffering of civilians, to allow for the release of Israeli hostages and to allow Palestinians in Gaza to start rebuilding their lives. So, while it seems that as time goes on, we feel even further and further away from a cease fire or even a humanitarian, an extended humanitarian pause. We have no choice but to continue pushing and hoping for a cease fire, because that's the only way that this bloodshed will come to an end.

NK: The IDF, as you also know, accuses Hamas of embedding its operatives and military infrastructure in Al-Mawasi, as well as other humanitarian zones. Hamas denies having a command centre in Al-Mawasi. In terms of responsibility, you know, where do you put Hamas?

SL: You know, it's impossible for me to tell you what is happening inside as I sit here in Amman. But there are laws, international humanitarian law, which dictates what makes a strike lawful and what makes it not. And in terms of the protection of civilians, there are three key principles that all parties to the conflict must abide by. And that's distinction: distinguishing between civilians and combatants, precaution: doing as much as possible to minimize civilian harm, which includes notifying civilians and giving them a chance to flee. And proportionality, which says that the military advantage in such a strike must outweigh the civilian harm. And when we have over 41 thousand Palestinians killed in the last 11 months, I can't speak to the strike today, but it would seem that the strikes that have been conducted against Gaza, the sheer wanton destruction of infrastructure, housing, it does not seem proportionate to the threat.

NK: Shaina, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SL: Thank you, Nil.

CH: Shaina Low is with the Norwegian Refugee Council. We reached her in Amman, Jordan.

[Music: Meditative instrumental]

Lichtman Prediction

Guest: Allan Litchman

CH: Predicting the future is a challenge, but doing it extremely publicly is even more nerve wracking. But Allan Lichtman is undaunted. For decades now, the university professor has been predicting the outcome of U.S. presidential elections. And he's been right nine out of the last ten times. The only exception was the 2000 race between George W. Bush and Al Gore, which was decided in the end by the courts. So as the two 2024 candidates’ debate each other for the first and possibly only time, we called Allan Lichtman for his latest prognostication. We reached him in Bethesda, Maryland.

NK: Professor Lichtman, you're certainly used to being right pretty much all of the time. But is the pressure different this time?

ALLAN LICHTMAN: The pressure is very great this time because of the passion on both sides. I received, you know, more scurrilous criticism this time than I think even when I called Donald Trump in 2016, which did not make me very popular in 90 per cent plus Democratic Washington, D.C., where I teach at American University. And I've been doing this for 40 years, and I'm used to the whips and scorns of criticism.

NK: You were on our program back in 2016 when you predicted correctly that Donald Trump would win. And there were certainly many sceptics at that time. For our listeners who don't know or to remind those who do you use a list of 13 true or false questions? You call them the keys to the White House. You devised these, you say, based on 120 years of presidential outcomes. How are the keys that you use different from the usual prediction methods?

AL: They're fundamentally different, which is another reason why I get criticized because I'm kind of unique. They ignore the pundits who have no scientific basis for their views, their predictions and have no track record. They ignore the polls, which are snapshots and are abused as predictors by clerks that compile polls like Nate Silver. The Keys tap into the structure of how American presidential elections really work. They gauge the strength and performance of the White House party and the way it works. If six or more of the Keys go against the White House party, they're predicted losers. Otherwise, they are predicted winners. So, six strikes and you're out.

NK: Let's go through I'll just list them really quickly for our audience. The 13 Keys: The White House party gained House seats during the midterms, the sitting president is running for re-election, the White House party is avoiding a primary contest, there's a third party challenger, the short term economy is strong, long term economic growth has been as good as the last two terms, a White House party has made changes, major changes to national policy, there is sustained social unrest during the term, the White House is untainted by scandal, you talk about charisma, those who don't have charisma as well, and then foreign policy successes or failures. And I know you've said that particular issue, foreign policy is an open question here. But based on your tally, who are you predicting to be the winner this time?

AL: I am predicting we are going to get a path breaking president that Kamala Harris will become the first woman president of the United States, at least putting a big crack in the glass ceiling and kind of foreshadowing where America is going demographically. We will also have the first [inaudible] African and East Indian descent. I want to correct one thing. It's not that there is social unrest, that there is no massive and sustained social unrest.

NK: Kamala Harris's supporters will certainly, no doubt be happy to hear you say that. But as you well know, this election cycle, we've seen an assassination attempt, a last minute change of candidates, allegations of voter fraud and voter suppression, you know, criminal charges against Donald Trump, felony convictions. Can you really apply a decades old model to a vote that feels unprecedented, that is unprecedented in so many ways?

AL: Let me say this. Every four years, some critics says, this election is unprecedented. You got to change your keys. We have an African-American running. Never had that. America is not ready for an African-American president. We have a woman running. And I have two answers. One, you cannot change a model on the fly. That is a recipe for error. Secondly, the keys are based on history, but they're incredibly robust. Developmentally they go all the way back to 1860 when women didn't vote, African-Americans were enslaved, no automobiles, no planes, no radio, no television. So, the Keys have survived vastly greater changes in our society.

NK: You mentioned pollster Nate Silver earlier in our conversation. The two of you often disagree on what the outcome is going to be. He is calling this particular election for Donald Trump, giving a 63.8 per cent chance of them winning the Electoral College. He has been wrong before, certainly including 2016, I believe...

AL: 2016, 2022. He has a terrible track record.

NK: Not that you're counting, but what if he's right this time and you're wrong?

AL: Look, that's always possible. Let me tell you a story. If I have time about Nate Silver, in 2010 I predicted already the very difficult to call 2012 re-election of Barack Obama. Then out of the blue, I get a gratuitous attack by Nate Silver, a 30 page attack saying, you're wrong, you can't predict this early. Of course, being a professor, I wrote a 30 page response which boiled down to the fact you can't because you depend upon these ephemeral polls which mean nothing even sometimes right before the election. But I can because my system taps into how elections really work. Ultimately, very late Nate Silver comes around and I wrote him a very nice email saying, let's do a joint article showing how two different forecasters came to the same conclusion. You know what I heard from the guy? Nothing. Not even a polite decline. So, you can imagine. I don't regard him as a serious scholar.

NK: Given what you do. Professor Lichtman, how do you take in a night like tonight when there's such a critical debate?

AL: I deliberately issued my prediction before the debate because I want to get across my message, which I've been screaming about for 40 years. It's governing, not campaigning that counts. And if people understood that we could get away from these meaningless, negative soundbite driven campaigns and have campaigns on real substance. No one has ever been able to predict elections based on campaigns, including debates. Hillary Clinton won all the debates in 2016. She still lost. So, my big message is don't get caught up in the day to day events of the campaign. Keep your eye on the big picture.

NK: Professor Lichtman, thank you.

AL: My pleasure.

CH: Allan Lichtman is a professor at American University. He's in Bethesda, Maryland.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

Mud Bowl 50th Anniversary

Guest: Ryan Martin

SOUNDCLIP

Announcer speaking and crowed cheering.

CH: That is maybe discernible as the sound of people playing football but what you probably could not discern is that they were playing football in knee deep mud. Every year tournament organizers deliberately flood a portion of the Hog Coliseum in North Conway, New Hampshire, for what is known as the mud bowl due to the mud. And against all odds, this year marks the 50th anniversary of the three day, 12 team competition. Ryan Martin is the wide receiver for the North Country Mud Crocs, and he has played in nearly 20 mud bowls. We reached him in Derry, New Hampshire.

NK: Ryan, it's been a couple of days now since the tournament. Have you rid yourself of all of the mud yet?

RYAN MARTIN: No, absolutely not. It is still caked in the scrapes in my feet. I'm still getting it out of my ears and still having it come out of my nose when I blow my nose.

NK: Is that the weirdest place, dare I ask that the mud is still...

RM: No. It's interesting because we wear spandex or compression shorts, So you'll find it in, I guess you would say, cracks below the compression shorts.

NK: [laughter] That's a very diplomatic way to put it. And I appreciate it. And our audience does as well. You also play in bare feet. Why is that?

RM: I think it gives me an advantage, you know, I'm getting into my 30s and being able to stay light and not be bogged down by mud getting in shoes really helps me or I try to think it helps me move around the mud a little bit faster. You know, it's a little different than my younger days.

NK: In your 30s is not exactly old. Just let me put that on the record. But I can see as an athlete...

RM: Playing in the mud, though.

NK: Yeah, you need your agility and your strength. You do involve duct tape in your outfit, your uniform for when you're playing in the mud. What does that do?

RM: Yeah, I use it just around my feet, just around my big toe to really try to prevent a lot of the scrapes from coming on. But after about five minutes in the mud, it really stops working. And then I use it around my waist and around the bottom half of the compression shorts to try to not get as much mud caked into my legs.

NK: That's just for maintenance, not necessarily your performance in the game.

RM: Absolutely. It's certainly not aesthetically pleasing.

NK: Are there rules to what you can and cannot wear or employ during the game?

RM: Yeah. You know, everybody tries to keep it to the either tee shirt and mesh shorts and you're really not supposed to wear sneakers or cleats in the mud. Just number one, because it's not safe for both the person wearing them and other people running around with their feet.

NK: You played high school football. How would you compare playing in the mud to that?

RM: This is just a, it's an excuse to keep the competitive juices flowing. Right. It's you know, not every day you get to go into the mud and play two hand shove and get, you know, get that feeling of scoring a touchdown in front of a crowd. It's really getting time to hang out with my friends and family. Right. It happens in my hometown. So, it's just a good excuse to come home and see my parents and also hang out with a bunch of my friends that I've grown up with throughout my childhood. So, it's a twofold win.

NK: Playing a game like that, whether you win or lose, it's a great release. Right? But is it even more so when you're in the mud?

RM: Yeah, I mean, yeah, right. It's both. Right. And people trying to say the, the benefit of the cold plunge is, you know, metabolic and great for the brain. But when you wake up Sunday at 8:00 in the morning, you have to get in the mud when it's been raining all night, you know, 45°F in the morning, it's a little tough to get motivated. But once you get going and you play, you just you know, the adrenaline takes over and you got the local support and the crowd cheering. So, it's just so much fun. But the real relief is hitting the warm showers after and trying to clean up best you can.

NK: What is the trick to playing well in the mud?

RM: You know, I always tell my friends, it's, you just try to keep your feet moving right? When you're standing and playing defence or you're lining up on offence out at receiver. It's just pick your feet up, put them down, don't let them get sucked into the mud because then you won't move and you lose leverage and you can just try to make a first, a fast first move, you know, on a receiver so you don't get jam by the defender to try to get open.

NK: Your team made it to the quarterfinals. How did that game go?

RM: I went it went well. We lost 44 to 40. It was I think it's the highest scoring match or I guess you call a game in the mud in history. It's two 20 minute running halves. So, to score 84 total points is a bit chaotic. You know, it's disappointing to lose, but always fun to play.

NK: This is the 50th anniversary of the mud bowl. Why does the tradition endure?

RM: I think, you know, it's a nod to the captains of the teams and the marketing of the event. Right. Continuing to grow it, expand the number of teams that play in it, expand the locations in which it's played, and number of times it's played throughout the year helped us generate interest and keep the interest buzzing. And I think it really helps to generate the money back to the local economy. Right? A lot of it's done for charity. It helps build local community centres. It gets people involved with the local community restaurants. It really is just a good boost to the local economy, to the fields that host it.

NK: I've heard about the Mud Bowl for a long time though. Though this is the first in-depth look I'm getting at the tournament. But there have also been a lot of stories. There still are a lot of stories circulating. You know, the lore, the legend of how it all started. What have you heard over the years?

RM: Yeah. We you know, the idea the frat brothers wanted to play in a backyard is one of them. A lot of them I've heard is we host a local parade and some of the local hogs used to play in the mud in tutus because they were dressed up as ballet dancers. I've heard a lot of people doing synchronized swimming in the mud, playing in wigs, playing with sunglasses, just, you know, a lot of crazy buffoonery taking place. So, it's awesome.

NK: You mentioned you're getting old, Ryan. Does that mean you're not going to play after this year?

RM: Let's just say my wife would appreciate it if I didn't ruin the plumbing at the house every time, I came home just rinsing off mud. But, you know, if it's not one thing, it's another thing that pulls you back. I have friends that will be inducted into the Hall of Fame. I have other friends that are going to try it out for the first time. You always get the competitive itch to come back, especially when my quarterback is like, Hey, we need you on both sides of the ball this weekend. Are you ready to play? I'm like, Yeah, I haven't ran a mile in years, but sure, let's do it.

NK: Ryan, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RM: Yeah, Thank you so much.

CH: Ryan Martin is the wide receiver for the North Country Mud Crocs who played in this weekend's Mud Bowl. He's in Derry, New Hampshire.

Juice Earth

[Music: Juice by Lizzo]

CH: This is Lizzo, of course, with Juice. A slang term meaning, in the words of dictionary.com: "respect, influence, power, authority or sexual desirability". And you could say that the European Space Agency's Jupiter Icy Moons Explorer, whose acronym is Juice, has Juice because it definitely has respect, influence, power and authority. I personally don't find it sexy, but that's just because it's a spacecraft and it looks pretty pointy. Anyway, in August, we spoke with planetary scientist Ines Belgacem of the ESA and she explained why they were about to send a Juice slingshoting around the moon and earth, a manoeuvre called a 'double gravity assist'.

SOUNDCLIP

INES BELGACEM: Our launchers are not, like, powerful enough to put us on a trajectory directly to Jupiter. So, we use what we call gravity assists. So, we use the energy of other planetary bodies in the system to kind of give us more energy and to reach Jupiter. So, this is the, the first one for us. It's a lunar Earth gravity assist. Gravity assists are pretty normal in space missions. But what makes this one very special is that it's the first time that we're attempting a lunar and Earth gravity assist, which means we're actually going to do two gravity assist. We're going to fly by the moon, and one day later we will fly by the Earth. And both of those manoeuvres will put us on the right direction.

CH: Now, those were high risk manoeuvres, but they worked. And already Juice has sent back data indicating the discovery of a habitable planet. Now, on its way past this planet, one of its instruments detected CHNOPS elements. That's CHNOPS, of course, as in carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus and sulphur. The most common elements in living organisms. Another instrument found water molecules and Juice got an infrared temperature image of the planet's surface. Taken together, these data strongly suggest that the planet is habitable. Which is good because the planet is earth. And in one sense it feels unfair to say this about an inanimate object, even one that's definitely smarter than me. But duh. In another sense, though, I'm relieved and a little surprised, but I'll take it. Of course, ESA scientists still have to confirm that the data are accurate, but in an ideal world, it will turn out we're living in an ideal world.

[Music: Techno Instrumental]

Part 2: Venezuela Opposition Leader, Blinken Re: Eygi, Sask. Fire School, Eye Transplant Success

Venezuela Opposition Leader

Guest: Omar Gonzalez Junior

CH: Omar Gonzalez Junior talks to his father almost every day, but he has no idea when he'll see him again. That's because Omar Gonzalez Senior has been living along with five other Venezuelan opposition figures in the Argentinean embassy in Caracas. They all fled there in March under threat of arrest. Several days ago, security forces wearing hoods surrounded the building. This comes at the same time as a crackdown on dissent following July's disputed election. Hundreds of people have been thrown in prison. And now the opposition candidate who challenged the incumbent, Nicolas Maduro and who many believe actually won the election, fled to Spain this weekend under threat of arrest on terrorism charges. We reached Omar Gonzalez Junior in Toronto.

NK: Omar, how is your father doing? You know. What did he tell you the last time you spoke?

OMAR GONZALEZ JUNIOR: Well, as you can imagine, the stress the last few days have been complex. The armed forces that are running the embassy and there has been some government declarations in terms of the rights for them to stay in the embassy.

NK: And what do you say to him?

OGJ: Well, we are trying to be positive as much as we can under the circumstances, and we're really proud of what he's doing. And it's in the best interest for the nation. But we're really worried for his security. When we speak, basically we just try to look at the bright side and all of what these actions are trying to improve the situation in Venezuela.

NK: You know, we've read about power outages. They can come and go. What is the latest on that front? What are the conditions like inside? How would you describe them?

OGJ: Yeah. So, they recently have been cutting basic services and they have set up police checkpoints to come in and out the area surrounding the embassy. They're having difficulties not only with power and potable water and basic needs, but also even to replenish basic supplies like food and sometimes even medicines.

NK: You speak at the same time every day?

OGJ: We speak at the same time every day. Yes.

NK: Does that help ease? What I can imagine is the worry here feeling?

OGJ: Yes, it does. I think it has brought the family closer. We tried not to focus only on what's going on around ourselves. Just try and give us some peace of mind, speaking about daily routines and things like that, just to keep our minds away from what's really going on.

NK: It's a hard thing, I mean, for you to go about your daily routine in Toronto, having that in your heart and your mind, that reality.

OGJ: It has affected every one of us in a different way. We had to take my mom out of the country as a set of precautions. And yes, it's difficult for me even on a weekend, to go out with my family and, you know, enjoy the weather. I feel guilty sometimes just thinking about what he's going through. On the other hand, he actually enjoys quite a lot. When we share is a way for him to escape.

NK: How does he spent his day every day being in there since March?

OGJ: Well, he's quite active physically. He's almost 75 years old. But he has a routine. He walks around the embassy, the premises, just to keep exercising. He's writing a book. He's a journalist. So, he's using some of those skills to put his mind into something. I like to say that even though he's in a golden cage compared to other people in Venezuela, there are over two thousand people in jail right now after the elections. And we like to say, even though he's in a golden cage, it's a cage, nevertheless.

NK: Just to remind our listeners, Omar, of the key players in all of this. María Corina Machado is the opposition leader who your father and the others trapped in the embassy support. She tried, wanted to run against Nicolas Maduro, but was barred from doing that. She was kept off the ballot. That's where Edmundo Gonzalez, no relation to you and your family came in. He's a retired diplomat, ran in her place. He and his supporters say that he won by a large margin, as you well know. Maduro says he is the winner. But Gonzalez has had support from the United States and other countries, including Canada, who say that the election results need to be revealed, but that they believe Gonzalez is the winner as well. You mentioned your father's age. His history as a retired journalist, has been politically active before. But why did he want to get involved at this point in his life, in this election?

OGJ: Well, I think his convictions and I really admire what he's going through and the convictions and what he believes to be the right path for the country to come back to democracy. And sometimes they hate him and love him for the same reasons in equal proportions. But it's just a matter of wanting to change. There has been a large amount of people that left Venezuela after 25 years of government. Some of the issues around the economical situation. He has never been one of those. He's there to stay. He has always been there to stay. And he wants to change the situation for good.

NK: So, if there was a way for him to get safe passage, is he willing to go?

OGJ: It wouldn't be his first option that would be for sure. He would rather stay if possible. But thinking through what everything is going on, we believe that would be the best solution. We personally, he's done everything he can and then some more to try and help the cause. I think he would be more use based on his skills and knowledge in terms of journalism to be in a free press country that he can voice their concerns and help the effort.

NK: Venezuelans certainly have different points of view on Edmundo Gonzalez's departure for Spain. How does your father feel about it? Because some are feeling that this this means there's no chance of change or transition.

OGJ: Yeah, safety was as much risk as my father's and others. So, I don't feel we are in a position, none of us to, to judge. He will be trying to support the effort from Spain as well now moving forward. So, we're grateful for everything that he's given to the country as well. The current period is due to finish in January. So, there is a lot to be done between now and then. And we hope he can come back and take the rightful position as President-Elect. From the personal point of view, I think it may open a possibility for my father and the other five that have stayed in the Argentinian embassy to get safe passage as well. Maria Corina has issued a statement saying that he will continue to support and that she will stay in Venezuela and she's come true to her word so far. So, we have no reason to believe it's going to be otherwise. So, we continue to support her. And Edmundo and everyone involved in this, I think everyone plays a part.

NK: And just finally, Omar, how is your mother handling all of this?

OGJ: Well, I think she has taken the biggest toll, I would say, and that's the reason why we decided to take her abroad. And we're just trying to be supportive as much as we can. And trying to be as optimistic as one can be, that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and this all will turn out for the best for the Venezuelan in general, but also for my family.

NK: Omar, I thank you for your time. Please take care.

OGJ: Thank you.

CH: Omar Gonzalez Junior is the son of Venezuelan opposition figure Omar Gonzalez Senior. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

Blinken Re: Eygi

CH: The Israeli military says it is "highly likely" that it "unintentionally" killed American activist Aysenur Eygi in the West Bank. On Friday, we spoke with a fellow protester who says Ms. Eygi was shot in the head by an Israeli sniper during a calm moment. She was protesting one of the Israeli settlements that have been deemed illegal under international law by many countries, including Canada. In its initial inquiry, the IDF says that the gunfire was not aimed at Ms. Eygi, but, quote, "aimed at the key instigator of the riot". It also said the shooting took place during a, quote, "violent riot" in which protesters were throwing rocks at Israeli security forces. Today, reporters asked U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken if he was confident in the IDF's assessment that the shooting was unintentional.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTONY BLINKEN: With regard to the tragic killing of Aysenur, I think what we saw this investigation is it seems to show what eyewitnesses have said and made clear that her killing was both unprovoked and unjustified. No one, no one should be shot and killed for attending a protest. No one should have to put their life at risk just for freely expressing their views. In our judgement, Israeli security forces need to make some fundamental changes in the way that they operate in the West Bank, including changes to their rules of engagement. We've long seen reports of the security forces looking the other way when extremist settlers use violence against Palestinians. We've seen reports of excessive force. By Israeli Security Forces against Palestinians. And now we have the second American citizen killed at the hands of Israeli Security Forces. It's not acceptable. It has to change. And we'll be making that clear to the senior most members of the Israeli government. Now we're looking carefully at the results of this investigation. But even on an initial read and even accepting it at face value, it's clear that there are serious issues that need to be dealt with, and we will insist that they be dealt with.

CH: U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken speaking in London earlier today.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Sask. Fire School

CH: Students and teachers at Evan Hardy Collegiate in Saskatoon returned to school today, five days after a 15 year old girl was set on fire at the high school. She's currently in hospital in Edmonton and a 14 year old student has been charged with attempted murder, arson and aggravated assault. For the return to school today, staff and students were asked to wear the victim's favourite colour purple to show support for her and her family. Before the morning bell, Chelsea Cross from CBC Saskatoon, talked to Tehsin Malek, a 14 year old student at Evan Hardy.

SOUNDCLIP

TEHSIN MALEK: My name is Tehsin.

CHELSEA CROSS: I notice you're wearing purple this morning. Can you tell me a bit about why.

TM: I want to be with Rebecca because what has gone with her, it's very shocking to me cause, like, Evan Hardy is a safe place. Like every school, is a safe place for us. But what happened to her, she can't, like we can't even imagine. So, I want to be with her. I want to be like, I'm with you, Rebecca. So be strong. Be brave. We are all here with you.

CC: I'm feeling a little emotional this morning. How are you feeling?

TM: When I heard in the news, I was, like, shocking. I was kind of emotional because what happened, it was like in few seconds. It happened a lot of things in that few seconds. And I don't know how her parents are feeling right now because they're like, my daughter is going to be safe. My child is going to be safe at this. But there wasn't a thing like that.

CH: That was Tehsin Malek, a 14 year old student at Evan Hardy Collegiate in Saskatoon, talking to Chelsea Cross.

[Music: Electronic instrumental]

Eye Transplant Success

Guests: Vaidehi Dedaria and Aaron James

CH: In 2021, Aaron James was working as a lineman and one day while he was up in a bucket, he had a terrible accident that changed his life. His face accidentally touched a live seven thousand volt wire. Nearly two years later, in 2023, Mr. James took part in a groundbreaking 21 hour surgery at NYU Langone Health that involved more than 140 health care workers. He received a first of its kind whole eye transplant and partial face transplant. The medical centre called it, quote, the only successful combined transplant case of its kind, unquote. Now, a new study about how the 47 year old military veteran is doing has been published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Vaidehi Dedaria is Mr. James's ophthalmologist and one of the co-authors of the study. She's in New York. And we reached Aaron James in Hot Springs Village, Arkansas.

NK: Aaron, I wonder, as you think back over the last year, what are the things that you can do now that you weren't able to do before this surgery?

AARON JAMES: Oh man. I guess the main thing would be just being able to eat and smell. You know, it's kind of little stuff that once you go a couple years without being able to do it and finally get that back. It's just like a well, it seems like you can smell better, like you could taste better, you know. And then just being able to go out, walk around, you know, without really anybody given a second glance, you know. I mean, just I finally fit back in, I guess.

NK: You said in another interview, Aaron, that you love looking in the mirror again since the surgery. What do you see when you look in that mirror now?

AJ: I mean, I see me. You know, I mean, that's the big thing now is I think I've finally accepted the fact, you know, that this is who I am now. You know, it took a lot of people to get it this way. But, you know, just looking and accepting it and moving on, you know, I think that's what you know, that's why I look at myself so much because it's just it's still mind blowing to me, really.

NK: And one of the people who helped make this possible is Dr. Dedaria. She's on the line as well. And, Doctor, to hear Aaron describe, you know, what it is like for him now to look in the mirror, even enjoys going to the DMV here to get a new driver's license. How does that sound to you as someone involved in this process?

VAIDEHI DEDARIA: I mean, it sounds amazing. You know, I became an ophthalmologist and a retina specialist to help transform the lives of my patients. And to have a patient also have his life be so vastly different from what it was And to be able to function the way he wants to is really incredible to hear in.

NK: Terms of the concerns and the medical issues at play. You know, when we talk about transplants, we often hear that word rejection. So, was that a significant concern when it came to this kind of transplant?

VD: Yes, I think that rejection is a concern really with many types or most types of transplants. And for this one in particular, it was as well. A portion of that comes from the fact that a component of this transplant, that whole eye transplant, was unprecedented. It was something we'd never successfully done before. And so, we had to formulate a plan on how to approach that differently, including from the point of view of a rejection.

NK: There's also the issue of potentially shrinking over time, this eye, how is Aaron's eye doing and functioning?

VD: It is doing very well. So, when we look at Aaron's eye, we do an eye exam. It is nice and round so it is not shriveled or shrunk at all. And what that tells us is that the eye is receiving a good enough blood supply that it can make its own fluid, just like our body can make blood from the bone marrow. And so, the eye is sustaining itself in that regard. And when you look at the eye through the microscope that we use, it looks spectacular in terms of the cornea is clear, the lens is clear and the vitreous is clear. When we examine the back of the eye, we can see that, yes, there was some damage done when the eye was transplanted, when the optic nerve was cut. And for that reason, Aaron cannot perceive light. When we shine light into his eye. But when we look at the eye itself, it really looks incredible.

NK: Aaron, you know, I hear what you say and can understand. You know, you want to get to a point where you could taste and smell and feel like yourself when you look in the mirror. But it's a huge undertaking, a huge risk, certainly, to take part in major surgery, let alone a first of its kind surgery. What was that process like for you, weighing whether to take part or not?

AJ: You know, I kind of, everything kind of lined up I guess, you know. I know that, you know, just doing the face transplant was going to be a risk in itself. So, I was already taking the risk just by doing the face transplant. And then when it got brought about the eye, I mean, I was, I was all for you know, I'm already going to be on immunosuppressants for the rest of my life. So, I didn't have an eye there to begin with. So, you know, and they told me from the beginning, you know, this is never been done. We don't know if it's going to work. We don't know. I mean, but I trusted them and what they were doing and what they were trying to do. I knew that even if I didn't get sight, the data and the information that they could get off of the surgery and the check-ups would just be... I think it would outweigh anything right now because that's what we really need right now, we need this info and we need this data to continue to carry on. I guess, you know, everybody wants to do their part in, you know, helping out. You know, maybe this is my, maybe this my part.

NK: And doctor, just so our listeners can understand, Aaron has sight in his right eye. I know he experienced some problems with that after his accident. But it's the left eye we're talking about here. He cannot see from this eye. And we're certainly a long way from that happening. But does this case and how Aaron has taken to this procedure I was body is taken to it. Does it give you hope that restoration of sight is feasible?

VD: This gives us hope that we can hopefully work to achieve more advancements in this field because, you know, it's a step you take one step at a time. And we have now, for the first time successfully transplanted an eye from one patient, an entire eye from one patient to another. And the next steps include, well, now that we've done, how do we bring sight to a patient. And this at least gives us some runway now to work with to get to that next step.

NK: And, Aaron, I wonder how your family's doing with all of these developments. I know a lot of families, no matter where they're listening from, can relate. You all just sent a daughter off to college. How are they feeling about this, this change for you?

AJ: They're excited. You know, when my accident happened our daughter, she was 16 years old and, you know, 16 year old’s they have enough issue as it is trying to grow up. Now you throw this in on top of it, you know, but she handled it good. She's strong. She graduated high school, going to college now. So, you know, and now it's just there's not as much stress around the house as there was before.

NK: Well, glad to hear that. Congratulations to her. And I'm glad you're doing well, Aaron. Doctor, Aaron, I very much appreciate your time. Thank you.

AJ: Thank you.

VD: Thank you.

CH: Eye transplant recipient Aaron James is in Hot Springs Village, Arkansas. And Vaidehi Dedaria, one of his doctors at NYU Langone Health, is in New York.

[Music: Meditative instrumental]

Part 3: James Earl Jones Obit, FOA: Hitchhiking Lobster Arrives, Kiingi Tuheitia Obit, Climate Change Bread, Chandra Data Music

James Earl Jones Obit

Guest: Anthony Daniels

SOUNDCLIP

DARTH VADER: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of The Force.

CH: That, of course, is Darth Vader in the 1977 Star Wars film "A New Hope". But, of course, the man behind that singular voice was the legendary James Earl Jones. The acclaimed actor and Broadway star died yesterday. He was 93 years old. He's known first and foremost for voicing that role, but also for so many others. From "Field of Dreams" to "The Hunt for Red October" to "Coming to America". He was one of Hollywood's most immediately recognizable voice actors doing not just Darth Vader, but Mufasa in The Lion King and even CNN's tagline. And he was also an accomplished stage actor. He was part of the exclusive club of EGOT winners, having been awarded two Emmys, a Grammy, an honorary Oscar and two Tonys. But before all of that, Mr. Jones had to overcome a severe stutter. In 1996, he told CBC's Midday that it even caused him to stop talking altogether as a boy.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES EARL JONES: Yeah, it. Was just too painful and too embarrassing to try to talk. I was okay with the farm animals, you know.

TINA SREBOTNJAK: [laughter] Yes.

JAMES EARL JONES: I could say. Excuse me. Pig, pig. And giddy up, and yee haw, you know, so. But that was about it.

TINA SREBOTNJAK: And how did you finally come out of this? What made you speak again?

JAMES EARL JONES: I had a great high school teacher. My English teacher in high school. He taught us Latin, history and English and Shakespeare and Chaucer. He just said to me, you know you're missing something. If you like words, you've got to be able to make sound to sound them because they're beautiful.

TINA SREBOTNJAK: But weren't you terrified?

JAMES EARL JONES: Oh yeah. Always. And still embarrassed and ashamed to get up and talk, you know.

CH: James Earl Jones speaking with CBC host Tina Srebotnjak in 1996. Mr. Jones died yesterday at the age of 93. Anthony Daniels played C-3PO in the original Star Wars films. We reached him in London.

NK: Anthony Daniels, that voice, you know, always powerful, regal at times, dignified but certainly menacing when you heard it as he played Darth Vader. What do you remember about hearing that voice for the first time?

ANTHONY DANIELS: Well, the first time I heard it was actually at the crew screening back in London in 19... early 1977, I suppose because Darth Vader on the set was totally other. You had somebody in the costume, had a kind of regional, high pitched English accent, and the combination was kind of [inaudible]. People kind of got the giggles because it didn't kind of work, wasn't menacing. The costume was great, but. And then like so many things on the set, it was one thing and when you saw the finished film. Wow. Boy was it different. And there was James adding such a, I don't know. I don't have the right word for it. He made Darth Vader become real, become menacing, hypnotic. I mean, absolutely naughty voice interesting hearing in normal everyday voice there. And when you see the film, it was mostly him. And of course, there was the odd sub aqua scuba diving effect put on. But it was James's voice. Just the effect made it even when he gave a history to the big fire that we would see him emulated in years and years later.

NK: It says so much, I think, and you would know this as a performer who also has a very distinctive voice, certainly, and involved in this history moment, the moment of history in film. You know, he's not in the suit, as you said, but he is so connected to this character. I mean, that's an achievement to have been able to create that character without even being on set.

AD: Without having been on set. One, I will tell you that one of the problems of him not being on set was that the person in the costume had completely different timing. And if you watch that first film, you see that finger wagging, because what they realized with hindsight, they did not film enough footage of the person in the suit. There was not enough time for James to actually be able to let that performance breath. He had to cram the words in into the footage that was already there. So occasionally you see that finger just wagging slightly out of time. It's a great job.

NK: But even more remarkable than that it's become so beloved. And I understand, you know, he has, he considered himself, quote, "special effects". In the beginning, he wasn't credited until the third Star Wars movie, "The Return of the Jedi" in 1983. But it's impossible to imagine anyone else as the voice of Darth Vader.

AD: Well, yes. And having seen, you know, other inspirations of it. Yes, it is. But, you know, we all accept what we were given as THE thing. And we're very lucky that that happened. I didn't meet until after the movie had come out. So, I was able to... I think the first time I was in New York and we were doing different recordings, different shows in the same studio. And he was incredibly nice to me, incredibly kind. He did a special recording for me personally, and he was adorable not only as a person, but that smile. The kind of [NK: yes], almost Cheshire cat wide smile, a grin. It was utterly charming. And he was a real gentleman.

NK: The eyes, the presence, just any photograph you see of him. I think if you never even heard of him and you saw that picture, that you would get that feeling that you're describing, what did he record for you?

AD: Well, he recorded a real piece of serendipity because in a short while I'll come on to something else. But back in New York, he recorded my intro to a science fiction convention. So, he said something to the words, you know, Please welcome the man whose work... I've never been able to... I've tried to do his voice, but my vocal cords, etc. aren't the same. But, you know, Please welcome the man inside C-3PO, Mr. Anthony Daniels. And here's the thing. In November in Los Angeles, I am. And people across Canada may have seen "Star Wars in Concert" some years ago. We are reviving that in L.A. for four performances. And guests, and I'm getting goose bumps, Actually, guess who will be saying, now something like, "Welcome part of the rebel alliance and the traitor Mr. Anthony... So, he will be introducing me in November in Los Angeles. And I know I will go on stage with a smile on my face and I don't know, just look up outwards and say, thank you, James. It's terrific. Isn't that a wonderful piece of serendipity? And that could only happen in show business.

NK: Yeah, When you did first meet him at that studio, how did you, how did your mind process the kindness and the warmth of the man you saw with the voice you had heard?

AD: Well, there was two different people. You know, he was acting at the time. And many actors have a different persona. And of course, he had different persona in all sorts of things other movies he did "Driving Miss Daisy" on stage in London that stage play. He was an all-round action actor, actually. And we now have him there up in the galaxy somewhere forever and ever. And that's again a magic thing about showbusiness that we will hear his voice for eternity for as long as there is Star Wars fans, he'll be there.

NK: Anthony Daniels, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

AD: Thank you.

CH: Anthony Daniels played C-3PO in the original Star Wars films. We reached him in London. The acclaimed actor and Broadway star James Earl Jones died yesterday. He was 93.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

FOA: Hitchhiking Lobster Arrives

CH: It was a long journey for a lonely hitchhiker who left Prince Edward Island more than four months ago. Depending on the kindness of strangers to get him where he needed to go. And I'm sure he was no trouble in the car. But he also wasn't a great conversation partner. The passenger was Lucky, a stuffed lobster in a real lobster trap who belongs to husband and wife, Chris and Karen McCallum. The couple from Okotoks, Alberta, got Lucky on a trip. That is the they got Lucky the lobster on a trip, but they couldn't take him home on their flight. As it happens, guest host Catherine Cullen spoke to the couple last month. When Lucky was mid journey.

SOUNDCLIP

KAREN MCCALLUM: Oh, my goodness. It has just been absolutely hilarious watching. He's done more than Chris and I put together across Canada. He's been in a race car and he won the race, so they put the trophy inside the trap. The RCMP got a picture with them and did a record check on him. He's been to the vet. He's been roller skating. He's been to the Terry Fox monument. He's been to a scallop festival in New Brunswick.

CATHERINE CULLEN: A little edgy, sending a lobster to a scallop festival no?

KM: Yeah, right. [laughter]

CC: Chris, every good traveller loves a souvenir. What kind of souvenirs has Lucky picked up along the way?

CHRIS MCCALLUM: He's got 2 or 3 different stuffed moose along with him. He's got a blue spiderman. He's picked up a wooden alien somehow. And, a Quebec flag with the Fleur-de-lis on it. He's got all kinds of goodies. And old Tim Horton's mug was picked up at a yard sale, and that was put in there. And among many other items, including hundreds of signatures on the wooden trap itself. So, we're super thrilled that, you know, Canadians have embraced this like they have.

CC: Karen, is there one particular whether it's a handler, somebody who's been bringing lucky along or a reaction like one person whose reaction has really stood out to you?

KM: You know, I think, the very first person, Kyra from Moncton, New Brunswick, when it arrived, a woman walking by saw it and put it on TikTok and said, can we help Karen and Chris get this across Canada. And a young lady and her mom travelled an hour to find Lucky along the riverbank. And she was so excited. And it was her idea to put markers, in the trap and have Canadian's sign it along his trip. So, she was the one that really got people... set the tone for the whole journey.

CH: Well, since that interview, Lucky the Lobster has finally arrived in Alberta, so our colleagues there checked in with the McCallum's.

SOUNDCLIP

CM: We can't believe it. He made it all the way from Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, to us on the backs of and the hearts of Canadians. Came through Saskatchewan, went up to Saskatoon. In fact, he made it to where Karen grew up on a little farm outside of Saskatoon in Colonsay, which was really heartwarming for her.

KM: Once he got into every province, each province wanted to really show off their territory. So, he you know, he took some side trips here and there, wherever he went. And it was quite interesting because we saw places across Canada that we've never seen before. So, it was a great way to showcase Canada for sure. When we got the trap in April, Chris lifted it above his head. But when we got it now, two of us could barely lift it because there was everything from a brick from my old farmhouse where I grew up, to a saddle stirrup, to a horseshoe, to a trophy that he won in a car race and numerous stuffies. So, it was quite funny going through the trap.

CM: It was very humbling and it was quite an honour to be able to showcase different parts and unique little parts of Canada to people around the planet on TikTok. So, it was fun.

KM: He had an air tag inside of him as well. So, every minute of the day we could see exactly where he was. And it's funny, no matter where you when you know, the minute one of the handlers could pull them out of the vehicle at some... "Is that Lucky? Is that the trap?" It was... Even when we were touring around Okotoks, when we took it out of the vehicle. "Is that the lobster?".

CM: You know, we weren't sure if it would even work. You know, we were just gambling and we thought maybe a couple of months, but we were in no rush. And it took, you know, two months to even leave P.E.I. and then finally got delivered to Moncton. And that's when someone saw it, put it on TikTok, and it absolutely exploded from there. And it was like a thread of, you know, fun and hope and laughter that kind of connected the eastern Canada to us in the West. And we're taking it now in early October. We're going to take the whole thing trap, Lucky, you know all the live in characters. Taking it to Victoria. We're going to dip the trap in the Pacific Ocean just to complete the trip.

CH: Chris and Karen McCallum sent their stuffed lobster Lucky on a hitchhiking trip from P.E.I. to Alberta.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Kiingi Tūheitia Obit

CH: During his life. Kiingi Tūheitia Pōtatau Te Wherowhero the seventh, strove for unity. And even after his death that work is continuing. Today, politicians in New Zealand paid tribute to the Maori King, who died last month at the age of 69. The role has a ceremonial mandate, but toward the end of his life, Kiingi Tūheitia edged toward the political. After the election of a centre right government intent on clawing back Maori recognitions, the King publicly advocated for protecting indigenous land and the Maori language and culture. In doing so, he urged all of New Zealand to embrace the concept of kotahitanga or unity of purpose. That message of unity was reflected by a number of speakers in New Zealand's Parliament today. Here are some of what was said, beginning with New Zealand First Deputy Leader Shane Jones.

SOUNDCLIP

SHANE JONES: He is not the [Words in Maori], i.e. the boaster. He is not the [Words in Maori]. The loudmouth. He was the [Words in Maori], The one who appreciated the dignity of silence and often let silence to his talking for him. In the later stage of his career, he found the sweet spot. Not only did he provide an opportunity for the various Kiwi to come together, but he sought to reach out and be a figure that went beyond the ebb and flow of politics and indeed the other debates that swirl around and make us Kiwis.

CHLOE SWARBRICK: In the times that I have had the opportunity to speak and engage as [Maori name]. I need to acknowledge that I have had my heart in my throat and have been shaking in my boots and Mister Speaker the thing that Kiingi Tūheitia taught me is that that sense of fear or trepidation that comes effectively from a sense of cultural ignorance is not something that should spur fear, but in fact is an invitation. It is an opportunity to learn and to break down barriers. And Kiingi Tūheitia make that learning an incredibly safe prospect. He made trying and reaching out and engaging and participating and working through discomfort, something that all of us should not fear, but something that all of us should aspire to.

DEBBIE NGAREWA PACKER: We all belong to the kotahitanga. We all were part of the vision for a united [Words in Maori]. We all need to be reminded of our role. As the Kiingi did. He encouraged that we continue to look after each other, that we weather the storm and we weather the storm together. Maori are the forever people. But we must also remember we are the forever hosts and we must forever host and look after our visitors. [Words in Maori] And to our [Words in Maori] long live the Kiingi Tūheitia [Words in Maori].

CH: That was Te Pāti Māori co-leader Debbie Ngarewa-Packer speaking in New Zealand's parliament today. Before her you heard Green Party leader Chloe Swarbrick and New Zealand First Shane Jones. They were paying tribute to the late Kiingi Tūheitia Pōtatau Te Wherowhero the seventh, who has been succeeded by his 27 year old daughter.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Climate Change Bread

Guest: Robin Morgan

CH: There are many great bread makers in North America. You may be one of them, but the truly elite bread artisans, the experts whose talents combine the culinary, the scientific, and some say the supernatural work at the Washington State University Bread Lab. Right now, a team of scientists and researchers there is experimenting with different types of flours to make whole wheat bread. But their efforts are not about gluten levels or degrees of fermentation or even flavour, although flavour is one of many factors. They're developing ingredients that can withstand the increasingly intense weather brought on by climate change. Robin Morgan's work is made up of equal parts ours in the Bread Lab bakery and days in the field studying our warming world. We reached him in Burlington, Washington.

NK: Robin obviously your team is focussed primarily on climate resilience, but we're talking about bread. So, what does bread using your team's special climate blend of flour taste like?

ROBIN MORGAN: So, we focus on like sourdough bread in particular. And I would say people usually describe it with like nutty notes. What I would say, it's very satisfying. So, describing flavour is really complex because I could say, okay, yeah, you can see some cardamom notes or cinnamon and then almonds all of that. But I would say that what we are really looking for is how bread makes us feel so, whole grain bread makes you feel like you're getting something that nourishes you profoundly.

NK: I think you have Italian roots. And so, I mean, they love bread, too. So, I'm wondering, like the Italians, you know, how are they feeling about what you're doing here? It's risky.

RM: Yeah, it's risky indeed, because wholegrain is still not very popular in Italy, despite the value of an environmental and public health perspective. Food in Italy is very traditional. And so traditional oriented. So, any change is seen as a potential threat, I would say, to how things are done.

NK: When you look at a loaf of bread produced at the bread lab compared to a conventional loaf, something, you know, we would see normally at our bakeries, texture, crumb, the aficionados will want to know about these kinds of things. What is the texture and crumb like?

RM: That's a really important aspect because it's a whole grain bread, comes with a number of negative assumptions usually unfortunately, one is flavour and the other is like the overall appearance of the loaf and the texture. So, we're not talking about bricks here. We're talking about absolutely desirable loaves of bread and we're looking at a slightly open crumb that can be a fantastic support to any spread or jam that you like to enjoy with bread.

NK: And just as simply as you can for our listeners, describe what is actually different about your flour.

RM: Yeah. So, while the vast majority of wheat worldwide is either white, a red, we have wheat varieties that have a purple, blue or black kernel. And so those pigments are due to the accumulation of polyphenols, and those compounds are known to be playing a particularly important role also in the flavour development and enjoyment of products like red wine. And so, we think that like pairing these compounds with long fermentation can be to know the nuances in things in terms of like bread flavour and overall, how the bread taste.

NK: Diversifying crops is part of the equation. How do you go about testing what might make a particular type of flour more resilient to a warming climate?

RM: From a plant perspective, the approach that we have adopted is called evolutionary breeding. And in this sense, we are rather than developing varieties, we are developing populations of wheat, which means that every hector of wheat that we plant is actually hosting a great number of genetically distinct plants. So, they're not all the same. So, if you look at general regular wheat field all the plants are basically twins, identical twins. Whereas we pursue this direction of embracing the diversity that exists within the wheat species and trying to leverage it to develop crops that can withstand better in a more reliable way the unpredictable climate and weather that we have been experiencing.

NK: How would you rate how well the mixes you're working with at the moment are doing? Promising?

RM: Yeah, promising. Absolutely, promising, we are looking at reducing the amount of external inputs that are required to grow a crop successfully. So, fertilizers and we are looking at crops that can, for example, be more competitive with wheat crops in an overall health form and achieve this successful production.

NK: You mentioned resistance to change. Part of that is just about tradition and wanting to keep things as they are. But, you know, when we talk about farming systems, another barrier to change is cost. So, what do you think it will take to actually get to a point where producers want to use the kind of technology you're talking about?

RM: It's interesting, though, because if we think from a flour perspective, for example, actually producing refined flour, it takes additional steps. So we are looking at promoting and supporting whole grain production and consumption of whole grain products because also it's a more effective way of utilizing the wheat crop since we can use 100 per cent of the kernel instead of using only 70 or 80 per cent, and this sees also a great advantage in terms of addressing urgent nutritional need for North American populations, which is that of increasing dietary fibre in people's diet.

NK: How many loaves of bread do you think you've baked during your research for this?

RM: Hundreds, I would say, if not thousands.

NK: Have you eaten them all?

RM: Well, that's the heard part of the job. But somebody has to do it.

NK: Yeah, hard part of the job. Well, Robin, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you.

RM: Thank you very much.

CH: Robin Morgan is a researcher at Washington State University's Bread Lab. He's in Burlington, Washington.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Chandra Data Music

CH: 25 years ago, NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory released its first images, and the U.S. Space agency is celebrating that milestone with this triumphant celestial music, a sound interpretation of the Tarantula Nebula, one of the largest and brightest star formations close to the Milky Way. It was created by translating data collected by the Chandra Telescope, which is still the world's most powerful X-ray telescope, and continues to send images back to Earth today. Most recently, the telescope helped detect two supermassive black holes in close proximity to each other. Described by NASA as like two sumo wrestlers squaring off. And I'm excited to hear what that will sound like. But in the meantime, here is a sonification of one of the earliest and most famous images captured by the Chandra Telescope. An exploded star located about 11,000 light years from Earth.

[Sound Of The Day: Personification of an exploded star]

CH: Personification of an exploded star released by NASA to celebrate the first images captured by the Chandra X-ray telescope 25 years ago was our Sound of the Day.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For September 10, 2024

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