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The AIH Transcript for September 06, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Gunned down. An American activist is shot and killed in the occupied West Bank. And the woman who rode with her in an ambulance before she died says she knows who fired the bullet.

CH: Running battle. An Olympic marathoner in Kenya has died after being set on fire. A grieving fellow Olympian says it's another instance of the wider tragedy of gender based violence.

NK: Unpopular vote. The president of Mexico says letting the public elect judges would weed out corruption. But our guest says ultimately that would only make the problem worse.

CH: A win, win situation. Canada's Nicholas Bennett is now a two time Paralympic gold medallist, and he credits his success in the pool to his sister, who is also his coach.

NK: He put the boss in bossa nova. The music of the late Sergio Mendes was often dismissed as easy listening, but he worked hard to make it sound easy.

CH: And no gutters, no glory. A team of bowlers in Kentucky sets a Guinness World Record by nailing more than 2000 strikes in 24 hours. One of them tells us about life in the fast lanes. As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio with no spare parts.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: West Bank Violence, Paralympics Wrap, Kentucky Bowler Record, Sergio Mendes Obit

West Bank Violence

Guest: Mariam

CH: Today after an operation it said was targeting militants, the Israeli military pulled out of the city of Jenin, leaving residents to take stock of the death and destruction. Nearly 700 people have been killed in the occupied West Bank since October 7th, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. And today, American activist Aysenur Eygi was added to that list. The 26 year old was part of a weekly protest against an Israeli settlement near the Palestinian village of Beita. Witnesses say Israeli forces shot her in the head. The IDF says it's investigating those reports and that its forces were firing toward a, quote, main instigator of violent activity, unquote. Mariam is an Italian activist with the international solidarity movement. She was at the protest. We've agreed to use an alias to protect her identity because she fears for her safety. We reached her on the road in the occupied West Bank.

NK: Mariam, I know you spent much of the day outside a hospital, dealing with the aftermath of what has happened to your colleague and friend. Can you describe what it was like there?

MARIAM: At the hospital? Well, we arrived there with, with an ambulance. I was on, on the ambulance, they took her to the emergency room.

NK: You were in the ambulance with Aysenur?

MARIAM: Yes, yes, I was in the ambulance with Aysenur. They tried to resuscitate her, but, she died, not long after we reach the hospital.

NK: I'm very sorry, Mariam. As much as you're comfortable sharing, can you describe what that was like for you to be in that ambulance?

MARIAM: It was a bit surreal; I think, you know. You don't quite realize that the situation. Yeah. It was, I don't know. It's shocking. [NK: Yeah.] We're not quite realizing what was going on.

NK: Where were you? How far away were you from Aysenur when she was shot?

MARIAM: We were a few metres apart. I was on the, on the road, and she was slightly behind with another activist in the... next to a tree, in the olive tree, but also close to the road. We were clearly visible to the army that was still on the hill. They were like 200 meters maybe away on top of us. There were soldiers in the street, and there was a sniper on, on the rooftop of a Palestinian home. Again, we were clearly visible. We were just standing, so we were not doing anything. There were Palestinians farther away, and there was a quiet, a calm moment, and we heard, two, shots of, live ammunition. One of them hit a metal object, and it bounced and, injured a Palestinian, man. And the other one, was directed, I don't know, to her head, when it was intentionally shot to hit her in the head.

NK: We should tell our listeners we are in the very early stages of this story. CBC News has not been able to do its own reporting on today's events. The Associated Press is, has spoken to another witness, Jonathan Pollock, an Israeli who was participating in the protest, who paints a similar picture to what you have just told us. Two doctors confirmed that Aysenur was shot in the head. For its part, the United States has said, that they confirm the US State Department confirms that Aysenur Eygi, was killed, but they did not say at this point, have not said at this point whether she was shot by Israeli troops. For its part, the IDF says it is looking into reports that a foreign national was killed as "a result of shots fired in the area", unquote. The IDF also says they were responding with fire to a, quote, "main instigator who was hurling rocks and posing a threat". Is that what you saw?

MARIAM: The Israeli army has been lying since 1948, and the creation of the State of Israel. There was... we were just standing and we were away from Palestinian. And it doesn't matter. They were 200 meters away even if someone was throwing rocks. That is in no way you can respond by shooting people to their head or to their chests, which is what I've seen before in previous years, going from the Israeli army towards Palestinian children. This is unacceptable. We were there. No one else was armed but the Israeli army. And they were shooting towards us.

NK: I want to ask you more about Aysenur. I know she's an American citizen. She's also a Turkish citizen. I believe she lived in Seattle. What can you tell us about her as a person?

MARIAM: So, I don't know her because she's just arrived into Palestine. And today it was our first time together in the field. Today she was very keen on joining this first action, and she was, very keen on, getting involved with the work of the ISM, in, in the field to support the Palestinian popular struggle against the colonization of Palestine.

NK: Do you remember anything? I know it's been a... it's a hectic and difficult day, to say the least, for you, but do you remember anything she said to you? I mean, just given that she had just arrived and this was her first protest there?

MARIAM: You know, she was she was praying with, with a Palestinian. She was, she was smiling.

NK: She was praying you said.

MARIAM: In the [inaudible]. Yes.

NK: We were certainly seeing an increase in violence and have been, in the West Bank. The IDF withdrew today after launching one of its most expensive operations in the occupied West Bank in years. The United Nations and the Palestinian Ministry of Health says some 700 Palestinians have been killed since October there. And now, Aysenur, as we've been discussing, does what happened today give you pause about staying and continuing to hold those weekly protests?

MARIAM: The you know, the Palestinians have lost so much for these struggles. They will continue and, we will keep standing, next to them to support their struggle and to, enhance their voices and to make sure the, our governments take action, stop in the Israeli impunity and, you know, bring justice not only for Aysenur but for the thousands of Palestinians have been killed and for the other international activists, also injured and killed in the bus.

NK: Mariam, I thank you for your time. Take care.

MARIAM: Thank you.

CH: Mariam is an Italian activist with the International Solidarity Movement. We're protecting her identity because she fears for her safety. She's in the occupied West Bank.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

Paralympics Wrap

Guest: Nicholas Bennett

CH: This year's Paralympic Games featured too many edge of your seat moments to count, as well as plenty of emotional ones and some that are tense and emotional and more. Take, for instance, this interview with Canada's Jesse Zesseu today, after he captured silver and discus in his Paralympic debut.

SOUNDCLIP

JESSE ZESSEU: Four years ago. I didn't know what para athletics was, and now I'm here. And to win, to win a medal is, it's crazy. And on top of it, it's like this week marks 20 years since my family immigrated to Canada. And to top it off like that is... it's really good. It's really incredible. Sorry I can't... sorry I can't talk right now, after I saw my sister, I just started crying. It's just. Yeah. It's unbelievable. It's everything. And the feeling is indescribable. It's just crazy. It was first happiness when I saw my sister. And then it was like happiness in terms of crying. And too last year worlds, I was crying because, because, because I was just sad and mad because I triple vaulted out. Now let's do this the very next year.

CH: The Paralympics closing ceremony will take place on Sunday, and another athlete who will be heading home with an impressive haul is swimmer Nicholas Bennett. His first medal was a silver in the men's S14 200 metre freestyle. Then he won a gold in the SB 14 100 metre breaststroke, and then he won another gold in the SM14 200 meter individual medley. The 20 year old from Parksville, British Columbia, is based in Red deer, Alberta, where he trains with his sister and coach Haley Bennett-Osborne. Today we reached Nicholas Bennett in Paris.

NK: Nicholas, I think our producers are determined and the athletes such as yourself to make us all cry. But it's so clear. Jesse has such, an important and special relationship with his sister. And I know you do as well. What is it like for you to do all of this? To have done all of this at these games with your sister Haley behind you.

NICHOLAS BENNETT: It's amazing. The relationship me and my sister have is so unique. It's... like I say, she's like my right hand basically. Just to be able to experience this, monumental occasion with her has just elevated to new levels.

NK: Coaches, you know, whether they are your sibling or not. They just have this this power and this magic to tell you exactly what you need to push you to that next level, especially at the level you're competing at obviously. I don't want you to give away all her secrets and your secrets, but what can you share? You know what she says or does, to get you to where you are.

NB: She knows me almost as well as I know myself, of course. Our relationship is just built on trust and communication. She just sees how currently am in the moment, and she just knows what to say basically. I don't know, it's almost like magic sometimes.

NK: If we go back to a few weeks before the games started, you talked about your performance at the last Paralympics and you said, you know, you're going to try to make the podium this time. We'll see what happens. Now, as we speak, you're a two time Paralympic gold medallist. You broke records. Have you had a chance to process it all yet?

NB: Yeah. Of course. I think on the podium it fully hit. And I think if you have seen the videos I started bawling, it's, it was just a lot of, well, raw emotion. It just hit like a truck basically. I think going from well, I think my highest ranked event was, I was fifth to first in the world in just three years. It was I would say it was just amazing. The growth I've, had under my sister's, control is just extraordinary.

NK: What did she say to you when you won?

NB: Not a lot of words, just a lot of tears and, you know, hugging at that point. We were both trying to find some stability in that moment.

NK: Sure. No. And sometimes you really don't need words, right. Those tears and those hugs are all you need. And I have to say, in all in the conversations, the interviews I've, I've heard and seen you do and obviously on the podium and what you're saying now, I think it's really powerful when people wear their emotions on their sleeves, especially when they're in a position of prominence as you are and have, you know, the world's eyes on them. I know you, when you were speaking to my colleague Heather Hiscox on, on CBC News Network. You know, you were apologizing when you got emotional. But I think there's so much power in that.

NB: Of course. Yeah. Well, I find that, of course I wear my heart on my sleeve a lot. And I say, oof! At this level, you're under so much stress, I find that I bottle it up quite a lot until, well, I break or I, not break, but, touch the wall, and it just floods out. Of course. But I'm definitely not afraid to show my emotion in front of the world. And my dad always told... my dad really taught me how to... it was okay to show that kind of emotion in front of people.

NK: You compete, Nicholas, in the S14 category for listeners who don't know a lot about what these classification numbers mean, what do you want them to know about yours?

NB: So, the S14 classification, encompasses autism and intellectual impairments, which would mean, people would have a hard time with their reaction speed, power recognition and just, sort of under, high stress.

NK: Do you think that most people watching, you know, these games do you think they understand para sport and how all of these different classifications actually work? Does that matter to you if they do?

NB: It does matter because, well, there's quite a lot of, people like me and I think. Well, our representation in media has been, not what is it plentiful in the past couple decades. But with the Paralympic movement, picking up steam every year, it's just getting better. And it's just amazing to see people experience, get the chance to see how, disabled people can function even with their, impairment.

NK: You know, we spoke to your fellow team Canada swimmer Katarina Roxon, before the games began. We're going to play a bit for you and our listeners about what she said about competing in the pool.

SOUNDCLIP

KATARINA ROXON: When I say that we're all equal in the pool, all of us who have physical impairments, we... that's all we want in every aspect of life, not just in swimming, but in the pool in this part of our lives right now, when we get into the water, it doesn't matter if you're missing an arm, if you're missing a leg, if you're in a wheelchair, if whatever the case may be, you're there, you're a swimmer, you're not a para swimmer. You're just a swimmer.

NK: How do you feel when you're in the pool?

NB: I agree totally with, how she... she says it perfectly, basically. With my classification, we're not physically disabled, of course. So, from the outside, we just look like able bodied swimmers. But as you, well go under the surface, you can see what affects us more, of course, but it doesn't matter when we're outside the pool, of course, or in the pool. We are all just athletes trying to excel.

NK: And succeeding in your case. Favourite memory from these games?

NB: Definitely seeing my parents right after my, gold medal. That is something I will never forget.

NK: Nicholas, I feel so glad to get to speak with you. Congratulations on all of this success.

NB: Well, thank you so much for having me.

CH: That was two time Paralympic gold medallist Nicholas Bennett in Paris.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Kentucky Bowler Record

Guest: Trace Wiseman

CH: This week, a team of athletes set out to let the good times roll and roll and roll. And when four Kentucky, bowlers were done they had set the record for the most strikes in 24 hours, a collective total of 2032 strikes. Trace Wiseman was on that team along with his father, and we reached him in Louisville, Kentucky.

NK: Trace, what do you do to recover after bowling for 24 hours straight?

TRACE WISEMAN: A lot of REST, Epsom salt baths, take some ibuprofen when needed. I'm still pretty sore. We just broke it on Monday, it's Friday we... I am still pretty sore, but, feeling a lot better right now than I was on Tuesday.

NK: I bet. I bet, when the ibuprofen kicks in. And you can stop thinking about the ache. How does it feel to hold the record?

TW: It's really awesome. This is our... This is going to be mine and my dad's third record that we have broken, but it never loses its value.

NK: It never gets old. But you guys, you know, you hit the record at the 14 hour mark. You kept going for another ten hours. Why?

TW: Wanted to set that bar so high that, hopefully it'll never be broken. I'd rather bowl the full 24 hours and have a record that I'll never be broken than bowl the 14 hours, get in and just turn around and get broken again.

NK: A strike, of course, is when you knock down all ten pins in one go, you're clearly good at it. I don't know if you want to reveal any secrets or tricks, but what would you say has gotten you to this point?

TW: A lot of practice, a lot of hard work. The main thing was my dad and I bowled four days a week, every week for at least 10 years. It just takes a lot of work, a lot of practice.

NK: You never wanted to walk away, like, enough for a while? No.

TW: I took breaks for a couple of weeks at a time. I had a few injuries that kind of made me doubt, but I persevered. I actually, now that you ask, I have retired from bowling. [NK: Oh]. As of, this week.

NK: Are we breaking news here?

TW: Yeah, this record was kind of my go out on top, last hurrah kind of thing. I don't bowl in any more leagues. I took all my bowling equipment home. It's not in the bowling centre anymore. I went out on top.

NK: What was, is it just you thought this is the pinnacle?

TW: It's a combination of this being the pinnacle and my injury history. The tendons in my wrist and my elbow are really messed up from all the bowling for all those years. I've had multiple knee injuries, and I have a, very young son now. He is about to be five months old. And, just want to make sure that I'm able to be there for him and play with him while he's young.

NK: You know, we mentioned you do this with your dad. He introduced you to this sport, I imagine. Do you remember when you first picked up a bowling ball? When the sport entered your life?

TW: So, I was nine years old and my dad was working out of town at the time, so we, we didn't get a lot of time to just, like, play or sit there and do much of anything. And, one day he was in town and we decided to go bowling. He came back into town every weekend. We went bowling, and I saw this other kid, a couple of lanes down with his own bowling ball, and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I asked for a bowling ball for Christmas, and he told me that if I, that bowling balls are expensive. So, if we're going to get a bowling ball for you for Christmas, you have to commit to bowling every week. Yeah. So, we started this tradition of bowling every Saturday, until I got picked up by a coach who got me into a youth league, and the rest is history. It just took off from there.

NK: Yeah, you already hold the world, together, the world record for most pins knocked down in 24 hours by a team of two as well. How does your dad feel about your retirement?

TW: He supports it. He is one of the most amazing men I've ever met. Obviously, he very much enjoys bowling with me. He's going to miss it, but he realizes that for my health and for taking care of my son, it's the best move for me. And he fully supports that.

NK: Yeah. Is he still bowling, though? He's going to keep going.

TW: He is still bowling. He is still bowling. Yeah. I, I am the only member that is, wholeheartedly retiring.

NK: And just to go back to the competition, this particular record in those 24 hours, did you make any adjustments to your technique as the time went on?

TW: As the muscles get sore. You can't throw it quite as hard as you were at the beginning of the day. I did have my middle finger split open around the 10th hour. And I had to start using my ring finger and my pinky finger instead. Because I could not get my middle finger in the bowling ball anymore.

NK: Oh. That's... That would mess up. I would mess things up for most people.

TW: That was, that was an interesting hurdle to overcome. My dad had something related around the same time. He had multiple blisters come up on his thumb. But he's, he's Superman, so he was able to push through it, and he kept going.

NK: Are you just. I mean, do you have a coffee IV throughout this? [laughter]

TW: No, I, drank, a little bit of an energy drink. I took a few power naps.

NK: Oh, you can take naps. You're allowed.

TW: You're only one person's allowed to bowl at a time. You're only allowed to use one lane. So, the way we had it set up, I would throw 15 balls, and then Eric would throw 15, and then Kyle would throw 15, and then Steve, my father would throw 15. [NK: Okay.] And then it would be back to me. So, while you're up there bowling, you bowl for about five minutes and then you go sit for about 15 while the other guys bowl. During that 15 minutes, you can do whatever you need to do. You can eat, drink, go to the bathroom, take a power nap. It might only be ten minutes, but it does help.

NK: Trace, congratulations.

TW: Thank you.

CH: Trace Wiseman is a member of a Kentucky bowling team that broke the record for most strikes in 24 hours. He's in Louisville, Kentucky.

[Music: The Dock of the Bay by Sergio Mendes]

Sergio Mendes Obit

CH: Decades ago, companies would pipe relaxing music into elevators to keep their employees calm and productive. Hence the phrase elevator music. It's a, you know, a derogatory term for tunes that felt bland and soporific, a term some people used to describe this song, and others by Brazilian musician Sergio Mendes. Which is fair enough, in a way. This version of 'Sitting on the dock of the Bay' has none of the grit or yearning of Otis Redding's version. But it's not just a sterile, corporate lullaby. It's a sophisticated bossa nova arrangement by an artist who usually had one goal in mind joy. And if you were in an elevator in the 60s that was playing this song, I'll bet people were smiling. Sergio Mendes, the pianist songwriter, one of the most popular Brazilian musicians of all time, died yesterday. He was 83. Look, I know I also have called him 'Mendez' my whole life, but it is pronounced 'Main-gees' not that. He seemed to mind if people anglicized it as long as they were playing his music. Starting in the mid 60s, he was one of the first and most successful artists from Brazil to bring bossa nova to international audiences, which, as you heard he sometimes did by bossa nova-sizing existing hits, but also by performing his own versions of actual Brazilian classics, including this song in the original Portuguese. As he once told an interviewer, quote, "people didn't know what it meant and it didn't matter. It just made people feel good".

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Part 2: Marathoner Murdered, Child And Youth Advocate, Oliver Healthcare Housing, Mexico Judicial Reform

Marathoner Murdered

Guest: Joan Chelimo Melly

CH: Last month, Rebecca Cheptegei of Uganda, was competing in the Olympic marathon in Paris. Today, friends and family are mourning her death. The details are disturbing. According to police in Kenya, where Ms. Cheptegei trained on Sunday, her former partner bought a can of gasoline, poured it on her and set her on fire. She was hospitalized with burns on 80 per cent of her body and yesterday she succumbed to her injuries. Her former partner was also burned and remains in hospital, but police say they plan to lay charges once he has recovered. Joan Chelimo Melly competed in Paris alongside Ms. Cheptegei. She's the co-founder of Tirop's Angels, an organization that aims to end gender based violence in Iten, Kenya. It was formed after the death of her friend and fellow runner Agnes Tirop, whose husband has been charged with her murder. We reached Ms. Chelimo Melly in Iten, Kenya.

NK: Joan, as you all know, Rebecca Cheptegei is the third elite female athlete to be killed in Kenya just since October 2021. How are you processing her death?

JOAN CHELIMO MELLY: Rebecca's tragic death is just a stark reminder of, like, the brutal nature of gender based violence. Just hearing the news, it really broke my heart. I feel like there's still more to be done on my side, because it reminded me of the late Agnes Tirop who was murdered. It's clear that we just need a very systemic change.

NK: When we talk about Rebecca Cheptegei, you were at the Paris Olympics with her. What struck you about her?

JCM: We had just one conversation. Because we had all this pressure of running, and millions of people were watching. And later she was telling me about. She's a mom of two, and she's very excited to be in Olympics. She has worked so hard. So, we just girls were just happy and she was so kind. She was nice. You could see she was the breadwinner in her family, not only just an athlete who was being successful, but she was being looked up to by the young athletes from where she was coming from.

NK: Rebecca's family has said that she and her ex-partner were arguing before she was killed, that there might have been a dispute over property. I know you didn't know Rebecca well, but did she give you any sense of the kinds of dangers she was facing? Did she even feel that she was in danger?

JCM: When I met Rebecca at Paris, she looked happy. She looked nervous because of the race, and she didn't show any signs of abuse. I couldn't even tell. I just learned that from after she was in hospital because I had to call the coach, and she explained to me what was happening. And she had reported the matter to the coach and also to the police. I felt like, I wish I knew. I could have just rescued her from that. And I...

NK: It's not your fault, you know. But what I can understand that emotion is certainly. I mean, you're very experienced in this work, but sometimes you can't tell it all right? There's not always visible signs, which is important for people to know.

JCM: Yes. Especially when they wear a smile. And you could not tell. And you away from home, you're in Paris. So, if we were in Iten, then I could just have the signs more. But I'm sorry. I didn't know what she was going through.

NK: We talked about a moment ago the fact that several female athletes have been killed in Kenya. Why does this keep happening to female athletes in particular?

JCM: I would say like female athletes, they are excelling, they are going against the traditional norms. So, it makes them like target of resemblance and control and the power of dynamics in relationship whether it's personal or professional. They leave these more women vulnerable to abuse. And also, for the athletes who have trouble it's all about the money these women have. That is where the main problems start.

NK: Yeah. Because then they are open to exploitation and certainly people who want to control them. And given all the other factors that you've talked about. A Reuters is quoting government data from 2022 that says nearly 34 per cent of Kenyan girls and women between the ages of 15 and 49 have suffered physical violence. That married women are a particular risk. Rebecca's father said he had reported the fact that his family was concerned for her safety to police before she was killed. What is your sense of how police are handling these kinds of cases there?

JCM: The perpetrators are not being held accountable. So, I feel like there's still more to be done in terms of law enforcement and policies to be made not only by the government, but also from the sports institution. Institutions like [inaudible] or the federation, or the sponsors are held accountable for the safety and well-being of athletes that they represent. So, if Agnes Tirop's husband is still walking freely, it shows even to the perpetrators, now that you can kill someone and you can still be free.

NK: He has... her husband has been charged though. Correct?

JCM: Yes. We're waiting for the sentence. But like Rebecca's case, reported to police. But nothing was done. So, these people know that if we do something wrong, we'll just bribe the police and just get away with it.

NK: What do you think would force officials and police to change?

JCM: I think that, like, we need stronger legal protection for female athletes, including, like, comprehensive policies that can address both the physical abuse, you know, and just the government, like, should just invest in creating reporting mechanism so that they ensure that these victims can just come forward without fear because we need solutions for this because we are raising awareness of these victims and there's nothing to be done.

NK: There are so many layers and so many difficulties. And then when you're faced with another horrific murder such as Rebecca Cheptegei, you know, you were mourning that certainly. But you've also saved lives.

JCM: Yes, we've saved many lives and we have many success stories, and it keeps us really working so hard. You'd see just those survivors smiling, just giving them a hug and giving them hope, and that there's another chance. Makes me keep going. But what breaks my heart now is when. It's the [inaudible] It's really rising again. So, it means collective voices so that we can just end this pandemic.

NK: Joan, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

JCM: Thank you.

CH: Joan Chelimo Melly is an Olympic runner and a co-founder of Tirop's Angels, which raises awareness about gender based violence in Kenya. We reached her in Iten, Kenya.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Child And Youth Advocate

CH: Hotels, motels, Airbnbs, even children's aid offices all places kids have been landing in Ontario when nowhere else can be found to house them. That's led the provincial ombudsman to launch an investigation into child welfare agencies placing children in unlicensed facilities. Irwin Elman, the former Child and Youth Advocate for Ontario, talked to the CBC this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

IRWIN ELMAN: What the Children's Aid director is saying is there's nowhere else to place them. It's not just offices, it's motels and Airbnbs. There's two children's aid societies with trailers in their parking lots. We're finding that children as young as three are in these situations. I know personally, and I've met a young boy who's 11, who's autistic, who's been living 11 months in an office in a Children's aid society, 11 months. It's outrageous. Outrageous. We need to do something urgently to ensure that these children who were taken from their homes, because we said, you are in need of protection. And we said, meaning collectively, the province and the government through the children's aid society said to them, we'll nurture, care and love you. And then we take them from their homes and they end up living in trailers or in an office or in an Airbnb. And imagine what that says to the child. What it does say to the child. What young people have told me is that you're putting us in storage, and there is no way a child can heal, in that situation. There's no way the workers who are who are having to do 24/7 shifts to make sure the child is really monitored. But that's basically what they can do because they're social workers. They're not trained to support children in self-regulation and learning what their mental health or special needs challenges are, meeting them so that they can return home. So really the monitoring them and the children are right, they're in storage. And children deserve so much more from our province than that.

DAVID COMMON: How did we get to this point?

IRWIN ELMAN: Well, I think it's been an ongoing movement towards this point. But here's what's happened. We've created in the last six years a perfect storm. We've undermined the system with what the ministry has called a system redesign, which really, it turns out, was about redesigning to save money, not to support children. And we kept children out of care and kept them in their families. But at the same time, we've hollowed out every support system that a family can depend on, and we need to do something urgently to create something to replace, what is not working.

CH: Irwin Elman is the former child and youth advocate for Ontario. He was talking to David Common on Metro Morning in Toronto earlier today.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Oliver Healthcare Housing

CH: The town of Oliver in British Columbia is asking residents with an extra room to get in touch. Over the last year, the local E.R. has closed dozens of times, and Mayor Martin Johansen is hoping to help put that situation to rest by compiling a list of places where health care providers can rest their heads. This morning, he told the CBC about the situation in his community.

SOUNDCLIP

MARTIN JOHANSEN: One of the challenges we have, and it's happening in a lot of rural communities around British Columbia, is a large percentage in our area. I've heard up to 40 per cent of the resources that are needed to keep our hospital functioning, come from outside of our community, and housing is a real problem. If they're going to drive down here from Kelowna, well, that's one thing they can drive down and go back after their shift. But if they're down here for 2 or 3 days or say they're a resident or a locum coming here, that they're going to spend more than 2 or 3 days, where do they stay? And the options are limited and they vary depending on the time of year. You can stay at the hotel and get a government rate, but the problem with that is that rate might not be available and that room, might not be available all the time, especially in the tourist season.

CHRIS WALKER: Okay, I just, I want to just stop because I want to make sure I understand this. What I hear you saying is that 40 per cent of the time the hospital is staffed by essentially backfill.

MJ: For sure, whether it's physicians or travelling nurses, international medical students, residents, those type of things, those type of people are providing support to keep our E.R. open.

CW: Do we know how often the closure is as a result of someone not finding a place to stay? Do you have that number?

MJ: I don't have that exact number, but I believe it's most of the time. We've been very lucky here. We have not had a closure due to nursing. If you've seen that in the PSA's that Interior Health puts out, a lot of times in Clearwater and Merritt, those are due to nurses. We've been very good here. Being able to get travel nurses to come give us support. It's physician coverage.

CW: Do you have certain I don't know, standards that you need to fulfil for a room to be available for a doctor. What kinds of places are you looking for?

MJ: I mean, we have a long term plan, so my long term plan is dedicated housing. I've been working on this for a while with Interior Health and the Ministry of Health. I've got a meeting coming up on September 16th. Down on UBCM. I've got a business case put together. We're looking for some public lands to build some dedicated housing for health care workers in our community that is needed now. The problem is that's probably 1 to 2 years away. So, in the interim, we need to have some kind of housing that would be available for these people. So, do we have you know, all we say on there is it's, you know, if it's a secondary suite in a house, it's got to be a legal secondary suite. We're looking for accommodations that... We're not looking for somebody to live in a trailer on somebody's property. It's got to be a proper suite that somebody in their house is willing to, rent to a health care professional coming into our community. They could provide it for free. And I know some of that is going on right now with international medical students. And we thought we needed to do something in the third term to kind of bridge the gap.

CH: That was Martin Johansen, the mayor of Oliver B.C., talking to Chris Walker, host of Daybreak South in Kelowna.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Mexico Judicial Reform

Guest: Adriana Garcia

CH: The move has faced harsh criticism from inside and outside his country. But the president of Mexico is not backing down. Andrés Manuel López Obrador is poised to overhaul the Mexican judicial system. His proposed changes would see the public elect judges by popular vote, instead of having them selected and approved. That hasn't gone over well among judges. But this week, the measure passed its first hurdle, moving through the lower chamber of Congress to the Senate. Adriana Garcia, as an adviser to the Rule of Law impact Lab at Stanford University and was a law clerk and professor in Mexico City. We reached her today in New York.

NK: Adriana, you have lots of colleagues and contacts, certainly in Mexico. What are the judges, you know, telling you?

ADRIANA GARCIA: Judges that I know are really worried about this situation. And it's not only because they all are facing a phase in which they are losing their jobs, but it's also because they are worried about democracy, about judicial independence, and about losing what they have built during the past year, which is a meritocratic way of appointing judges.

NK: As you well know, protesters, including judicial employees, tens of thousands of them. As you've written in your New York Times opinion piece as well. They were people were on the streets. They blocked entrances to Mexico's Congress this week as the measure was set to be debated. How would you describe the temperature and the mood around this issue in Mexico?

AG: I think people are really worried because the proposal was discussed at the deputy of chamber during one session. So, it was only one day of discussions, and they have been trying other methods. Right. Like before the strike, they were trying to issue reports. They were trying to explain how important is the civil service within the judiciary. Right. Because it's not only about justices, it's not only about the high courts. These proposals means that every judge in Mexico will be elected by popular vote. So, it this is serious.

NK: President López Obrador, as you know, is defending this overhaul and saying it's necessary to root out corruption in the judiciary. You disagree, obviously, and you say this is dangerous. Why?

AG: And I think we all agree with the president because the judiciary is far from perfect. But it's not only judges, it also it has to include also prosecutors. It has to include also police officers. Our problem with the proposal is not that... We don't disagree with the diagnosis. We disagree with the medicine; with the prescription they're giving. So, voting for justice in our perspective and looking at the U.S. experience and the [inaudible] experience will not only not cure the disease but will increase it like it will make it worse, because now corruption is going to be institutionalized through election in Mexico.

NK: What would be a better way to reform the judiciary and address the concerns that you agree exist?

AG: Well, we have been fighting, like me and many advocates in many NGOs in Mexico we have been asking for much more transparency available in many cases in Mexico. Right. So nowadays we have at the Supreme Court level, justices that are nominated by the executive branch but with no reason behind. They don't explain where do they come from, like what was the criteria to select this specific person. And then this appointment is only approved by the Senate. We don't have information about their backgrounds. We don't have information about how they measure their qualifications. So, in order to have a better system, I think we should make sure that we have a meritocratic and not political appointment process.

NK: You mentioned the United States a moment ago. Certainly, what is unfolding is creating some tension diplomatically between Mexico and countries such as our own Canada, but also with the United States. But many U.S. states elect judges. And so, when you hear about those kinds of tensions or the United States, remarking on what López Obrador wants to do here, what do you make of that reaction, given how things are done in the U.S.?

AG: Yeah, that's a very interesting question, right. Because you have the U.S., the U.S. has many states in which judges are elected, and then the U.S. comes to Mexico and says, oh, no, that's a bad idea. But we do it right, but that we do it, that it happens in the U.S. doesn't mean that it's a good system. And there are plenty of studies showing how judges are biased when they are elected. Sandra Day O'Connor went through both systems and she at the end she said, you know what, after going through both systems, I can assure you that politicizing the appointment of justices is not a good idea, because you can't be biased, because you have to go out there and you have to sell your ideas. And second, we are comparing bananas with apples. In the context of Mexico we are facing, as the president has said, a lot of corruption it's going to be a real problem if we open the judiciary to organized crime, to interest groups, to more corruption, because you need money to campaign and you need money to get the votes.

NK: The current president has just a few weeks left in his term. President elect Claudia Sheinbaum is behind these reforms. It appears as well. But why do you think the current president is so eager to get this done now?

AG: Because it's how he will close his mandate. López Obrador has tried to change many things in Mexico, right? And to implement his policies he started by trying to change the constitution because he didn't have the majority in Congress. He would quit and try to do it through legislation. The Supreme Court entered into the equation and said, you know what? This is against the Constitution. His plan is to get the majority of the Congress and then let me fire all these people that are in the Supreme Court and let the people choose. I'm going to... Let's have voting for that.

NK: He wants this to be his legacy it sounds like what you're saying. The reforms are now being reviewed by the Senate there in Mexico. So, are you hopeful at all that with the work you and others are doing, that you can turn things around?

AG: I am right because they do have, they have the majority in the House of Representatives. They don't have it yet at the senator’s chambers. So, if we get some senators to really see the horrible consequences of this change to the Constitution, maybe we can get them to say no.

NK: Adriana, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

AG: Thank you so much, and thanks for the interest in this important topic.

CH: Adriana Garcia is an adviser to the Rule of Law Impact Lab at Stanford University. We reached her in New York.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Part 3: FOA: Rider Shafique Exhibit, Blinken In Haiti, Ont. Archaeology Storage, San Marino Wins

FOA: Rider Shafique Exhibit

[Music: Slave Chant by Roger Gibbs]

CH: That's Roger Gibbs with a piece of music called Slave Chant, a song that was once sung by enslaved Africans in Barbados. Its original sheet music is the oldest surviving music of the island. It's held in the Gloucestershire Archives in England. Starting this weekend that manuscript will be the star of a new exhibition called Beating Back the Past. Gloucester Cathedral will be showing new works of art inspired by the music, and one of the artists is Rider Shafique. He's of Bajan descent and he'll be sharing his own interpretation of the song. He was a guest on As It Happens in June, when he told Nil what it was like to hold that music in his hands for the first time. Here's part of their conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Rider, I've only seen a photograph of this sheet music. You've had the chance to actually hold it in your hands and run your fingers across it. What was that like?

RIDER SHAFIQUE: It was quite surreal. You know, it's very powerful to actually see the handwriting and how people were creating and documenting things in that time. It's very, it was very interesting to me.

NK: And the words in the song -- you know -- says a lot about what was happening.

RS: Yes, yes, yes. And -- you know -- history doesn't -- well -- history can lie. It depends who's telling the story. But -- I mean -- there's so much that the document or things like this tell us about ourselves and tell us about the enslaved -- how they were resisting and how they were, creating music and things like that.

NK: You're not just putting this, this sheet music on display along with the other the artifact, the other artifacts that you're plotting -- you know -- for the for the exhibit and presentation coming up in September. I believe you are also doing your own interpretation of this song -- musical interpretation. Why was that piece really important to you as a Bayesian, but as a musician as well?

RS: Throughout history, we faced different obstacles and different -- you know -- slavery interrupted African history. Then all, all the things that came along with that -- the laws and the rules as to what people could do or couldn't do. And then -- you know -- a huge if we, if we fast forward quite a long way, it's a huge amount of people from the Caribbean migrated to the U.K. And migrated all over -- you know -- America, Canada, wherever else. You know, so much gets lost over time. But I feel that is interesting to me to see how these folk traditions and these ways of expressing yourself and giving messages out or -- you know -- these acts of kind of defiance or resistance continue throughout generations, you know? And as a musician, it's the perfect remake. And I pay homage to and recognize and -- you know -- give my interpretation as somebody who is descended from that lineage.

NK: What do you hope other visitors take with them when they visit the installation in the Gloucester Cathedral in the fall?

RS: There's lots of stigma -- especially when you talk about a subject like slavery. There's a lot of guilt or there's a lot, lots of different people, lots of different perspectives. But I think the important thing is just to start the conversation. I hope people come away recognizing what we do have in a local, a small city like Gloucester -- like -- in regards to history and what is archived. I want people to also see the importance of documenting their day-to-day lives. Things change so quickly, and it's not until after we really realize the importance of things when we see them every day.

CH: From our archives. That was Rider Shafique speaking with Nil in June, Beating Back the Past runs from September 7th to September 30th at Gloucester Cathedral in England.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

Blinken In Haiti

Guest: Widlore Mérancourt

CH: Yesterday, Antony Blinken was raising hopes in Haiti or trying to. The U.S. Secretary of state paid a quick visit to Port au Prince, where day to day life continues to be plagued by gang violence despite the arrival of an internationally sanctioned security force. Here's some of what Mr. Blinken told reporters there.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTONY BLINKEN: Over the past several months, more than 380 Kenyan personnel have arrived in support of the Haitian National Police as part of this mission. With more to come. In recent weeks, the MSS with the Haitian National Police has increased joint operations, taking the fight to the gangs. And delivering a powerful message. The Haitian people, not Haitian gangs, will right the country's future. As a result. The airports reopened; commercial flights have resumed allowing goods to enter the country. In parts of Port au Prince. There's more economic activity, more markets reopen, more people venturing out.

CH: That was U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken yesterday in Port au Prince. Widlore Mérancourt is the editor in chief of the independent Haitian news organization AyiboPost.

NK: Widlore, what do you make of Antony Blinken's assessment? He says that that things are improving in Haiti.

WIDLORE MERANCOURT: Well, this is the secretary of state who was extremely positive and upbeat, in his different meetings here in Port au Prince with stakeholders, and politicians, in the capital. Of course, he noticed, in many of these meetings, the progress that Haiti made, on the past, you know, over the past months, the presidential council is in place. Indeed, we have a prime minister who is working with his cabinet. We also have this Guinean force, you know, that came to help fight back against the gangs that are so in chaos all over Port au Prince. However, this picture is a little rosy because two months in, after the Kenyans arrived, the capital is still, 80 per cent controlled by gangs. The main roads leading to Port au Prince are still controlled by groups. We also have more than half a million people displaced by gang violence. About 20 per cent of hospitals only, working properly in Port au Prince. So, there is a lot of work to be done to stabilize the country today.

NK: What kinds of things as you go out to do your reporting Widlore, are you hearing from people there, from Haitians?

WM: Well, we are observing, slow degradation with regard to how people view the Kenyan force here. At first, people were extremely hopeful that this force would help, you know, stabilize the country, reopen the key roads and make sure that, you know, the hundreds of thousands of people who were displaced by gangs, the dozens more being killed, actually, many thousands killed only this year, would find some sort of justice. However, we are not observing any, you know, of these things and quite, you know, frankly, the, secretary mentioned as part of the success of the mission and the two things that he mentioned in his speech when he was at the press conference yesterday is the reopening of the main hospital of Port au Prince and also the fact that the airport was reopened. But there is a little problem with that assessment because the airport was reopened in May and the force was not in Haiti at the time. And there is no Kenyan who participated in any operation with regard to the General Hospital. And this general hospital, actually, the main hospital of Port au Prince is still not reopened and it's still not receiving patients today.

NK: So, would you say, I mean, you can't speak for all Haitians, certainly, but the people that you've covered in your reporting and the stories they tell you, the conversations you have, do they feel safer today?

WM: No. Absolutely not, absolutely not. And actually, in some accounts, we can say that the situation worsens because, more and more we are seeing report and I wrote, recently an article with The Washington Post about how the violence is, you know, leaving Port au Prince, well not leaving, actually. But the violence is, coming to places outside of the capital, for instance, much less of the people, actually, the vast majority of people who are displaced by violence in Port au Prince, they went to the South. This is a place that is still struggling, with the 2016, hurricane, with the 2021 earthquake. And the infrastructure is not built, to receive these people. And you have dozens of kids in the streets. And you also have, many cases of sexual violence. But on top of that, we are also observing, according to the mayor of [inaudible] that I spoke to, they are observing, you know, increase in terms of violence, and, violence, in the area. And it's the same thing if you go to Artibonite Department where we are serving, an increase of violence, not just in Port au Prince that is still struggling today, but also outside of the capital.

NK: Antony Blinken also spoke, about Haiti's interim president and its transitional council and how important it is that the country and that council and the president move towards democratic elections. As you look at what the council has done so far, how are you feeling, about the potential for Haitians to actually cast ballots in an election soon?

WM: I can't speak about my feelings but I can tell you the facts. The facts is this council is doing what they can to build, an electoral council that would, you know, make sure we have elections in time so they can have, we can have a peaceful transfer of power, in 2026, right. However, we are behind the schedule with these preparations, we are behind schedule with the constitutional, reform that we should be doing. And if you talk to observers and specialists, they will tell you, we have little chance to respect the deadline that was set up in the political agreements. But we also have, on top of that, many other problems. For instance, this presidential council has three of its members implicated in a grave, corruption scandal. They are alleged to have asked the leader of a bank, a state bank in Haiti, they accused by this leader to have asked him money to keep him in his position at the bank. And this is something that the corruption entities, you know, investigating as of today. And we are hearing calls for these members to resign from their position. And so far they are resisting with law.

NK: Widlore, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

WM: Thank you.

CH: Widlore Mérancourt is the editor in chief of the independent Haitian news organization AyiboPost.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

CH: On last night's show, I made a pronouncement I was pretty confident about at the time. I told the inspiring story of a college student in India who had just invented the smallest vacuum cleaner ever by transforming a ballpoint pen. It was 0.65cm wide and about six centimetres long. It is adorable, and it does actually work to a certain extent, like it seemed like you could use it to clean up after you spilled 4 to 6 sesame seeds. But ultimately, I described it as "not very useful". And then we received polite but firm calls from two different listeners who suggested that, like the tiny vacuum cleaner, I might suck a little.

SOUNDCLIP

ISABELLE YANUKOVICH: [Voicemail tone] Hello, As It Happens, it's Isabelle Yanukovich from Calgary, Alberta. I just heard this segment about, the smallest vacuum in the world. And, it might be just the thing for people who have dollhouses and miniatures, because a much larger vacuum is really too hard to vacuum these very delicate things. So, I don't think it's useless at all. Thank you, bye.

TRISTANNE BASSNETT: [Voicemail tone] Good evening. It's Tristanne Bassnett calling from Prince George. You can't say that vacuum is useless. No, I'd really like one to, dust my son's, around my son's Lego in his room. You can't dust around them. You just, you can't do a proper job that way. So, I can't possibly take all that Lego out and dust underneath it. Like I need a tiny vacuum.

CH: You're both right, Isabelle and Tristanne. The tiny vacuum is actually very useful for vacuuming Lego, as you said. And dollhouses and miniatures. Anything that you don't want to just suck into the gigantic, maw of a larger, like, normal sized vacuum. Also, for the same reason, you would need to use a tiny vacuum to vacuum the tiny vacuum. Thanks for calling. If anyone else has a use for the tiny vacuum, or you want to say anything about anything else on the program, call Talkback (416) 205-5687 or email us at aih@cbc.ca.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Ont. Archaeology Storage

Guests: Taynar Simpson and Julie Kapyrka

CH: Hundreds and hundreds of boxes full of artefacts like arrowheads, spades and axes, some dating as far back as 800 BC. And these boxes are stacked up in a number of Ontario facilities, where the responsibility of storing items unearthed by archaeologists has fallen to the archaeologists themselves. And according to a new open letter addressed to the Ministry of Citizenship and Multiculturalism, that's causing a number of problems, especially when indigenous communities try to retrieve those artefacts. Alderville First Nation Chief Taynar Simpson is one of the signatories of the letter. Julie Kapyrka is the vice president of the Ontario Association of Professional Archaeologists and a consultant manager to Alderville First Nation, which is where we reached them both.

NK: Chief Simpson, I'll start with you. Can you give our listeners an idea, a few examples of where these artefacts are ending up?

TAYNAR SIMPSON: Well, it's our understanding that the artefacts are being housed by, individual archaeologists who do not have the ability to store them in for profit or expensive storage locations. So, when an archaeologist does come across artefacts, it's contingent upon them to house and store them for the Canadian public.

NK: And if they can't store them or when they pass away, what happens?

TS: Well, then it seems to be almost a free for all where some of these items, end up online for sale. It's very unlikely that it would be an archaeologist who's in the family that would be taking them over. If it's the estate of the archaeologist, and also, if they aren't identified properly, it might just be seen as old junk that, ends up in the landfills.

NK: When you think about those possibilities, Chief, and where these things might end up, I mean, landfills, eBay. What goes through your mind?

TS: Well, it's sad. It's sad that this is the state of affairs in Ontario in today's day and age, where the artefacts and the cultural items aren't given the appropriate credence that they should be. In my opinion, I think that the artefacts should be going into some type of, database virtually, where perhaps the archaeologists still keep some for now, but then they are categorized, they're put in a database, and if, they are identified as indigenous, perhaps they're Anishnawbek us as a community, you can say, hey, we would like to have those artefacts housed in our collections on reserve or somewhere of our choosing. So that doesn't exist right now. Because you need up the full context of these items, and then you need to know what to do with them. But those processes aren't in place right now.

NK: What does it suggest to you, Chief, about different cultural perspectives on these kinds of artefacts?

TS: So, in First Nations culture, we would likely be feasting the important artefacts. We would be, regularly smudging them, and we would be housing the most important ones in, culturally appropriate manner. And whereas the other artefacts may be, lithic, so the arrowheads, pottery shards, like those could be presented to the public, the community. And, maybe they could come in and look at them and we could use that as some sort of cultural, teachings.

NK: And, Julie, let me bring you in. Now, this problem is certainly not new. You know that well, but it does appear to be getting worse, why?

JULIE KAPYRKA: It's getting worse because every year, over 500 archaeological sites are registered with the Ministry of Citizenship and Culture and Multiculturalism. And all of those artefacts that are collected from archaeological excavation have to be housed by the archaeologists. So, it's, you know, ramping up and ramping up and ramping up, and there's more and more materials and there's just not enough space for the archaeologists. You know, they literally have artefacts, you know, falling all over the place out of their homes, out of their basements, out of their garages. Some have storage units. And those 500 sites that I mentioned that are registered annually, those are the ones that are actually known. So, there's many, many more that are unknown. There's many, many more that are, you know, completely destroyed. So, there's definitely, you know, a huge problem in terms of the amount that needs to be housed and where to put all of these items.

NK: And there's no government protocol. Archaeologists have been getting licenses since 1975, if I'm not mistaken. But there's no path to managing what they find still.

JK: Well, yeah, exactly. Basically, under the terms and conditions of archaeological licensing in Ontario, the archaeologists themselves are tasked with housing these artefacts in trust for the people of Ontario. And that's pretty much about it. There's no provisions for cost. There's no, guidance in terms of how to store these items. And it's just incumbent upon the individual archaeologist to take care of these items.

NK: You've also spoken, Julie, about a disconnect between what is required of archaeologists storing these items, but also what's required of indigenous communities hoping to repatriate them. What do you mean by that?

JK: So in my experience working for, several First Nations over, you know, the last 20 years, when First Nations request to have artefacts or archaeological items, returned to their communities, they're oftentimes faced with being asked to provide climate control, humidity control, security control in terms of the contingencies that museums would have in place, for example. Yet that doesn't seem to be fair in terms of the archaeologists who are housing these items in their homes, basements, garages, storage units that quite frankly do not have the same care as a museum would. So, there is a complete double standard there. I will say though, however, that it's slowly changing and there are some. Communities that are able to receive items, but it's not the easiest process.

NK: And Chief Simpson, you know that double standard well, that Julie speaks of, I'm sure. How does that sit with you that when you and other communities, you know, try to get these items repatriated, you're faced with those requirements?

TS: Yes, absolutely. So, when you look at the intellectual property, I don't think there's any argument that it's not our intellectual property. So why wouldn't we be afforded the first right to be able to house them under conditions that we deem appropriate? There is an argument that they should be housed in a way that won't destroy them, and we fully agree with that. It's just that we don't think that it should be dictated to us by powers that in a lot of ways, let this happen to these artefacts in the first place. We feel like we are the proper caretakers of our own cultural items, and we really just wanted to come to the table and make those arguments to the provincial government and say, hey, we can be doing it better. Let's talk about it.

NK: Certainly, this issue has come up before. First Nations have raised these concerns before this, this letter that we're talking about today. What is Ontario's Ministry of Citizenship and Multiculturalism done and said about this in the past?

TS: Well, in 2016, there was an agreement that, the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and Sport, which is now the Ministry of Citizenship and Multiculturalism, they launched a cultural strategy and they made some, very specific commitments to us. Those commitments haven't been followed through. There was a five year plan, strategy. And really, we haven't taken any steps towards that. It kind of just, fell off the, the map. And we're still hoping that there's still that, will within the government to deal with these issues. But right now, we're just not hearing much at all. Doesn't seem to be a priority. We're just in a holding pattern until something changes.

NK: What kind of response do you think you might get from the ministry now that you've sent this letter?

TS: Well, I hope that we get some sort of positive response. I mean, I understand that, these things take time, but it has been an awful long time. We've been dealing with, this scenario since 1975, which is coming on 50 years. So, you'd think there would have been some plan put in place by now. And we owe it to our ancestors to fight this fight, because right now, our remains, our artefacts, our history isn't that important right now, it seems. So, we really want to change that, change the whole dialogue about this and make it so that we get to control the narrative that talks about who we are.

NK: And Chief, Julie, I'll just ask you both really quickly before we let you go. If there are archaeologist listening or maybe family members, like we said, who these things have been handed down to the they're stuffed in boxes somewhere. What would you want to say to them as you sit in this holding pattern, as you've described it?

TS: We want people to know that if they are in possession of collections and they're not sure if what they're doing is the right thing to do, please just pick up the phone, give us a call, especially if they're remains that might be from the, us, Alderville or more, broadly, the Anishnawbe nation. We would be happy to help you in pointing in the right direction. If they happen to be artefacts from, say, another people, then we would be happy to let you know. I want to take away any stigma that there might be about who's in possession of those and who actually is the one that can own them. So please reach out and we'd be happy to, to discuss with you.

NK: Chief Simpson, Julie, thank you both for your time.

JK: Thank you very much.

TS: Thank you.

CH: Taynar Simpson is the Chief of the Alderville First Nation, and Julie Kapyrka is the Vice President of the Ontario Association of Professional Archaeologists. We reached them in Alderville First Nation, Ontario.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

San Marino Wins

CH: For some teams, winning isn't everything. It's the only thing. But for the San Marino national football squad, winning was the only thing they couldn't do. The tiny European city state sits perched on a mountaintop from which the country's 30 thousand inhabitants look down on the Italians, who surround them on all sides. But when it came to soccer, the Sammarinese couldn't look down on anyone. They hadn't won a match in more than 20 years, until last night's historic triumph. In a home game against mighty Liechtenstein, San Marino broke its streak of losses and draws by winning one - nil, their first victory in their home stadium and their first in league play. Today, midfielder Marcello Mularoni described the feeling.

SOUNDCLIP

MARCELLO MULARONI: We feel so excited because we make something historical for our country. It's fantastic. It's like a dream. For us it's a little bit difficult to compete with all the major national team, but for sure yesterday's a real dream that came true.

REBECCA KESBY: Well, you're kind enough to be speaking to us on your lunch break, I think, because your, your sort of actual job is as a business consultant. But it was a home game, wasn't it, in front of the home crowd last night. What happened when the final whistle went and the crowd realized that you'd actually won a game?

MM: Probably no one realized that we make something like a dream and all the crowd is so excited seeing our relatives, our parents. It's something special also to make the first win in our stadium.

RK: For you as players and also the fans, I mean, it's a long time between then and your current when now. And in the intervening years. There's just loss, after loss, after loss. It can't be easy going into a match like that and having to deal with defeat. How do you cope with that?

MM: For sure, we know our reality and we know that, only with the group, only with the team before us that, we can make something great.

RK: So, you mentioned that you're speaking to us on your lunch break, and most of you in the team do have normal jobs, don't you? How did your colleagues today greet you when you went into the office?

MM: Yeah, they are so happy for me, but also for the country. They told me that, so you made history. They are so proud also of me, but also for all the other players, because everybody here knows that we aren't professional players. Everyone have to, to grow their passion, instead of many of loss. And so, a win can, improve our energy also to make again, another historical moment. So, we have to grow all together to not, wait another 20 years to have another win.

CH: San Marino national team midfielder Marcello Mularoni speaking with the BBC's Rebecca Kesby earlier today.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For September 06, 2024

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