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The AIH transcript for September 05, 2024

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Side splitting. The NDP breaks up with the Liberals to go its own way. And the NDP's House leader says that's because the stakes in the next election are no laughing matter.

CH: A major faux pas. A French lawmaker tells us Emmanuel Macron's pick for prime minister is one of the worst choices he could have made -- and it will cost him.

NK: Buying and cellaring. Ontario becomes Canada's third province to allow the sale of wine and beer in corner stores. One busy store owner tells us what was brewing at his shop in downtown Toronto today.

CH: Commercial success. Remembering Jim Riswold, the adman behind some of the biggest campaigns ever -- including the indelible Bo Knows -- whose TV spots were always bright spots.

NK: Vicious cycle. A Montreal woman is feeling deflated after police told her they had found her son's stolen bike. But that -- to get it back -- she'd have to buy it from a pawn shop.

CH: And... It won't eat your dust, but it will nibble it. An Indian inventor's massive achievement is narrower than your pinky fingernail, and it works. It's the world's smallest vacuum cleaner.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday Edition. When it comes to stories about tiny vacuums, this radio is a little bit of a sucker.

Part 1: NDP Ends Deal, ONT Alcohol Sales, Jim Riswold Obit

NDP Ends Deal

Guest: Peter Julian

CH: Justin Trudeau is brushing off the fact that the NDP has unceremoniously ended its relationship with his Liberal Party. Yesterday, NDP leader Jagmeet Singh released a video announcing the end of the supply-and-confidence agreement that had helped the Liberals control the House of Commons. But today, the Prime Minister didn't seem especially fazed.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Look, we're focused on delivering for Canadians -- a big announcement on school foods; we got more work to do in creating $10 a day childcare spaces across the country, moving forward on insulin, pharmacare. These are things that matter for Canadians. We're going to stay focused on those. Hopefully, the NDP will continue to try and deliver for Canadians. Right now, they're focused on politics. We're focused on Canadians.

CH: Peter Julian is the NDP House leader. We reached him in New Westminster, B.C.

NK: Peter Julian -- as you heard there -- Prime Minister Trudeau says the NDP is doing what it's doing -- ending the supply and confidence agreement -- for political reasons. There's obviously some rhetoric at play there. But what do you say to Canadians who agree with what the Prime Minister is saying?

PETER JULIAN: Well -- first off -- the NDP managed to force the government to do a number of things -- dental care. Half a million people have now benefited from that in the first few months the program, pharmacare, anti-scab legislation, housing funding, that is, these are all things that, the NDP had, had to fight, had to push the Liberals to do. They weren't willing to do it without our pressure. But the reality is Jagmeet Singh has said that they're far too beholden to corporate interests. There are issues that are out there that the Liberals are completely unwilling to deal with. For example, food price gouging that people are experiencing when they go to the supermarket, gas price gouging. We've seen corporate landlords increasing rents, and there's no attempt by the government to really rein in the corporate sector -- including issue of corporate overseas tax havens. Which -- according to the parliamentary budgetary officer -- cost us $30 billion a year.

NK: I hear what you're saying. These are --

PJ: These are all issues that are fundamental. And the Liberals do not seem to be willing -- and Mr. Trudeau doesn't seem to be willing -- to deal with these fundamental issues that have a real impact on people's lives.

NK: You and your colleagues have been voting with the Liberals for two years now, though. What changed?

PJ: We, we have been pushing for these kinds of solutions. For example -- food price gouging -- Jagmeet Singh has been very, very clear on. And we have just found that the liberals have been unwilling to move on these issues because they're too beholden to corporate interests. We managed to, to get impressive things that have made a difference in people's lives. It's very clear the Liberals aren't going to take the next steps to actually rein in food price gouging or gas price gouging, corporate landlords, all of those issues they seem unwilling to deal with. And that's why we have moved from, from the agreement back to where we were during COVID -- which was on a vote-to-vote basis. And you'll recall -- and during, during the COVID pandemic -- the NDP secured supports for small businesses, for families, for people with disabilities, for seniors. We managed to do that each time, fighting vote by vote. And we'll continue to uphold the public interest and make sure that, that Canadians are getting the supports that they need.

NK: Liberal House leader Karina Gould was on our program, was our guest yesterday. She talked about those things that you worked on together. And she warned -- though -- that the key NDP priorities aren't entirely in place at this point -- pharmacare, school meals, dental care. Jagmeet Singh has said that -- in his view -- this deal makes an election more likely. So why put those policies that you yourself have listed as wins, why put them at risk?

PJ: Well, they're not at risk because they've all passed the House of Commons. So if the Liberals are saying -- well -- we're going to backtrack on something that has been adopted by the House of Commons. I think Canadians will see that as, as simply a refusal to do the right thing. I mean, all of these things from anti-scab legislation that now has royal assent, to the housing funding, to pharmacare that is passed the House of Commons and will be passing the Senate in the next few weeks. These are all things that the government should be implementing anyway. And if they're saying -- well -- we don't want to act in the public interest, what kind of a reflection --

NK: But if there's a change in government, aren't they at risk?

PJ: They, they should not be at risk because all of the elements are in place for them to be implemented. So why would the Liberals question that? They, they now, when the pharmacare bill passes through the Senate in a matter of a few weeks, they have everything they need to fully implement that first stage of pharmacare. So there is no question there that these elements, the government should be following through on.

NK: What would it take for you and your colleagues to vote down Mr. Trudeau and his government?

PJ: We're proceeding vote, vote by vote. That's very clear from what Jagmeet has said.

NK: Is there a deal-breaker?

PJ: Well, it's acting and providing supports to Canadians, which is where Jagmeet has been for years. And the reason why he's the most popular politician in the country right now is because people see the results. They see what he has done to actually force the federal government to take action and provide supports to people. There is no doubt that his popular support comes from, from that background. And -- in that same way, for the course of the next few weeks, in the next few months -- we have an election in in 12 months exactly if, if Parliament survives that long, earlier if it doesn't. But through all these coming weeks and months, we're going to make sure that the public interest is maintained and that people receive the supports that they need. And that's why we're proceeding vote by vote in the same way we did during COVID. And the results for Canadians were very positive because of all the supports we were able to bring to Canadians.

NK: It's certainly no secret -- and everyone can agree -- the Liberals are polling poorly, but so is the NDP. The liberals are at 23.7 per cent according to an EKOS poll dating back to August 21st. The NDP is at 18.2 per cent. So, do you really believe Jagmeet Singh is Canada's next prime minister?

PJ: First off, he's the most popular of our national leaders.

NK: But your party isn't.

PJ: Well -- I mean -- we saw the same thing with Jack Layton. I mean, he, he -- Jack Layton -- became popular first. The NDP support followed. And if you think back to the 2011 election, if Liberals hadn't told people they should be voting Liberal rather than NDP, we would have had Jack Layton as prime minister rather than Stephen Harper.

NK: I do, I do remember that election, and I remember the momentum that followed, and that was around Jack Layton before his passing. Do you, do you honestly believe that same kind of momentum is present right now for Jagmeet Singh?

PJ: What I'm saying is that Jagmeet Singh -- over the last couple of elections -- people have seen him, and they appreciate the work that he is doing. Which is why he has the, the highest favourable rating of any of our national leaders. We need to build on that. Jagmeet has laid out some of the things, the vision of the NDP and why we're running to form government in the next election -- whenever that is. The reality is we are finding more and more people responding positively to our message. And this week -- as you know -- Angus Reid pointed out that the NDP would actually win more seats than Liberals at this point.

NK: Peter Julian, glad to have you on the program. Thank you.

PJ: Good to be with you. Thanks so much.

CH: Peter Julian is the NDP House leader. He's in New Westminster, B.C.

[lounge jazz]

ONT Alcohol Sales

Guest: Kenny Shim

CH: As of 7 this morning, you could stroll into a corner store in Ontario and buy some booze. It's a big -- and controversial -- change that has been debated in the province for years. And now -- after the provincial government paid a multi-million dollar penalty to end its contract with the Beer Store 16 months early -- it's a reality. And for Kenny Shim, it's a very welcome reality. He's the head of the Ontario Korean Businessman's Association and the Ontario Convenience Store Association. He owns his own shop in Toronto -- and that's where we reached him earlier today.

NK: Kenny, I know it's just been a few hours now, but how much attention is your new alcohol shelf getting?

KENNY SHIM: Well, everybody's asking if I could carry their own favourite brands of wine or beer now. So, from what I had my initial order, I think my portfolio is going to expand. And yeah, so it'll be exciting. There's going to be trial and error, but I think it'll be superb for the convenience store business.

NK: And, and how much have you seen in terms of sales? Are people buying bright and early?

KS: It's just starting. A lot of people didn't know -- actually -- that we could sell beer and wine until they came into the store. They've seen a couple of posters, and they see the product. And I don't have the full product out yet because I ordered the refrigerator for the beer and wine. And because there's such a high demand, the supply is quite low. I was supposed to have it yesterday, but it looks like it's going to be delivered tomorrow. And -- by the weekend -- it will be on a full gear.

NK: Everybody's adjusting, it sounds like. I know you've been pushing for this, lobbying for this change for, for a long time now -- many years. Why did you feel that this was so important, so crucial for convenience store owners such as yourself?

KS: Oh, we've been pushing this for a good 25 years. Remember back in '80s when the Sunday shopping came into play? Convenience stores lost a lot of their revenue to the big supermarkets. And last 10, 15 years, there's been a huge illegal market in tobacco industry, as you know. And although we don't promote selling tobacco products, it's one of the items people come in to buy at the stores. And we were just losing that part of business. And then, the vaping came into the market and the government decided to give it to the vaping stores. Nicotine pods came in not too long ago, and they decided to give it to pharmacy only. So, we're losing our foot traffic to store. However, the beer and wine -- although we are not going to be making the margin that we're used to -- I think it'll create a lot of foot traffic into our store. So, we're expecting our revenue to go up -- which is a good thing.

NK: You were mentioning all of the challenges that, that you and other business owners have faced over the years -- losing the foot traffic, as you said. In terms of the members of the Korean Business Association that you represent, what was the impact on them? I mean, how many, how many shops closed in the last few years?

KS: Well -- in the year 2002 -- we had a maximum, we had 3,000 stores all over Ontario -- from Kingston, right to Windsor, London, right up to Gravenhurst. We had about 3,000 members. We're down to about 1,004 members now. Basically, two-thirds got wiped out. So, that tells you how bad it was.

NK: There's also concern -- as you well know -- that expanding alcohol sales to corner stores is also going to expand the harms that come along with alcohol. That more young people will be able to get their hands on these things. That people will drink more heavily because there's more access. What do you say to, to those who feel that way, who feel that Ontarians don't really need more ways to get alcohol?

KS: Well -- whether you have it at the convenience store or at the beer store -- if you're going to be drunk out of your mind, you will be drunk out of your mind. So, I think having it at a convenience store is not going to affect that much. And as far as selling to minors is concerned, the convenience store owners -- there's like 12,000 of them in Ontario and their family members in the store. There's a good to 300,000 people involved in this industry. And every time one bad staff or the retailers sells to minor, the whole 30,000 people gets the finger pointed at them. Greedy convenience store owners selling to minors and killing our children. That is absolutely offensive to a lot of store owners. You know, we have children. I have two children. I don't promote that to my children. And when you actually sell to a minor, the fine is $50,000. And $50,000 is not a small amount any given day to any given person. And when you lose a liquor license -- you know -- you lose a lottery license as well. You might as well close the store.

NK: There's also a cost -- as you know -- to the taxpayers of Ontario because this is -- even though you've been pushing for it for, for decades, as you said -- it's happening a-year-and-a-bit ahead of schedule, and it's costing taxpayers $225 million to have alcohol in convenience stores such as yours starting today. And, and -- you know -- critics have pointed out that money could have been spent on creating more affordable housing or -- you know -- taking care of the health care by hiring more doctors and nurses. So, could this change not have waited another year, given the other needs in the province?

KS: I'm not a politician, so I know the money could be going somewhere else, but we are not the decision-makers. And the government made a decision to do such a thing, and we're here, and we're just trying to get ready and be good at it.

NK: Yeah. Some critics are going even further, accusing Premier Doug Ford of trying to buy votes by, by doing this and doing this ahead of schedule. I know you're a supporter of Premier Ford, but, but was this a big part of the reason you're supporting him?

KS: Well, the premier made a promise to sell beer at convenience store. I'm glad it happened. But -- at the beginning -- I didn't appreciate Premier Ford as much as I do now. Over the years, I feel that he does work for smaller people, smaller businesses, and he does care for the hardworking people. So, that is the reason why I support him.

NK: So, you're -- as you said -- you're, you're just getting adjusted. You know, taking the orders and getting what your customers would like to see on those shelves as the days and weeks come. When you look ahead -- though -- how much money do you think these new sales -- these alcohol sales -- might bring in?

KS: Well, I looked at some statistics from similar cities, I'm looking at probably 10 to 15 per cent, maybe up to even 25 when you consider the other basket of goods that goes along with beer and wine.

NK: Kenny, thank you. I'm glad we could speak.

KS: Thank you. Thank you very much for your call.

CH: Kenny Shim is the owner of Busy Bee King Mart in Toronto. He's also the head of the Ontario Korean Businessmen's Association and the Ontario Convenience Store Association.

[chiptune!!!]

Jim Riswold Obit

Guest: Mira Kaddoura

CH: He was not the real-life Don Draper -- wrong era. But when Jim Risworld was giving his pitch for an advertising campaign, he had the full attention of everyone in the room. Because his ads got the full attention of everyone outside the room. The late Jim Riswold was the man behind the Air Jordan ads and the "Bo Knows" campaign of the 'nineties. His work for Nike -- which included commercials starring Michael Jordan and Spike Lee -- were huge, blurring the line between entertainment and marketing.

SOUNDCLIP

[rock]

MAN: Bo knows baseball.

MAN #2: Bo knows football.

MAN #3: Bo knows basketball, too.

CH: As I said, he worked with Michael Jordan. But his colleagues and competitors described him as the Michael Jordan of advertising. For two decades, Jim Riswold fought various forms of cancer. Last month, his children announced his death on his Instagram account -- with a statement that read, "Okay, I'm Dead Now". Mira Kaddoura is a friend and former colleague of Mr. Riswold. We reached her in Austin, Texas.

NK: Mira, visuals are a huge part -- an important part -- of those, those ads. But just the scripting, the tone speaks volumes as well. So -- when you hear them now -- what does it bring to mind?

MIRA KADDOURA: Jim Riswold made advertising fun. He made it into entertainment. Where before that, it was very much trying to hard sell you something. And he totally revolutionized this industry because he made you want to watch a commercial. [chuckle]

NK: Even if someone had never met or known, seen those ads. Just what our listeners heard in the introduction there about what his children posted from him to announce his passing -- quote -- okay, I'm dead now, [MK laughs] also says a lot about who he was. He was your first boss -- if I'm not mistaken -- in advertising. Was that Jim on display in, from the first moment you met him?

MK: Absolutely. That was him. That's how -- I mean -- I keep on joking that he basically produced his death.

NK: Yeah.

MK: He basically is making an art show out of his death. He's just like that. He's just constantly trying to create things in the world. And he did it 'till his last breath. He did it really, he survived 20 years with cancer. He basically was creating constantly, and that kept him alive.

NK: It's a competitive field -- as you well know. So, how did everybody else who was used to doing just those regular old ads selling a product, how did they react when Jim comes in with this kind of advertising and completely changes things?

MK: Well -- you know -- I wasn't around in the '80s and '90s, you know? [laughing].

NK: Fair!

MK: He's a whole -- you know -- more than two decades older than me. But I think what he did is he was able to -- I mean -- also -- you know -- you just happened, happened to be working on Nike, and happened to be working on a brand that already had its start with, you know, Dan Wieden writing "Just Do It" already had its start as a powerful brand. So, Jim just basically was inspired from his life and from his passions to create works that entertained people and that really -- you know -- engaged them.

NK: Is there a piece of advice he gave you as you worked with him and then became his friend that stays with you today?

MK: Through all these years, I think what he really taught me is the power of creation. And especially as he got sick over and over again. You know, this idea that we could almost fight death by creating all the time, you know? He was a force in that respect. And he taught me to take risks. He taught me to be brave. He taught me to make things even if no one likes them. You know, we're so preoccupied with what other people are going to think. I created this show and platform Into Healing, and then he reached out to me to be on it.

NK: This is for your podcast, just, just a few weeks before he died.

MK: Yes, exactly. So, he reached out to me just a few weeks before he passed, and he said, I want to be on this. And I'm like -- okay -- you can barely breathe, but let's do it, you know? And he came in with all his tubes and his oxygen tanks, and he just, just that attitude of -- like -- be part of the people making things. And especially -- I feel -- in the face of death, in the face of destruction. Like, being those people that make things -- that want to contribute to life -- it's such a powerful message and lesson, you know?

NK: Was it hard for you and emotional -- though, too -- sitting on the other side of that conversation?

MK: Yeah, absolutely. I knew it was going to be emotional because of my relationship with him and the state he was in. But I think -- in the end -- when he kind of sat there in front of me, I'm, I, what I've discovered is that I really get present with the person when I sit in front of them, and I try to -- like -- not think of he might die in two days. I just -- like -- I'm here right now. He's alive. We're here together. Let's have this -- you know -- beautiful, heartfelt conversation. And that's really all that mattered in that moment.

NK: Did he feel changed by the diagnosis? I mean, not physically. Obviously, he was changed physically. But that passion to create -- as you said -- persisted. What did he tell you about how things shifted for him?

MK: I don't think it ever shifted. Of course, it shifted physically because he literally couldn't breathe towards the end. And -- I mean -- he's had cancer so many times over 20 years. And every time -- you know -- he'd recover, and he'd beat it, and then he'd put -- you know -- get put on another drug. It became a joke between me and him that he's -- like -- never going to die. You know, that we're all going to die before he does [chuckling] because he would just beat it again and again. I think it was because he was such a creator. Like, like, he was ready to leave, but he was -- like -- not ready to leave. Because he had so many things he wanted to create in the world.

NK: He didn't want to miss a minute or waste a minute -- it sounds like.

MK: He didn't. He, he really didn't.

NK: I heard -- though -- or I read, that he could also be a pain. And other people have phrased it differently [chuckling] in the office environment.

MK: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. He's a very polarizing person. Like, there's people that love him and there's people that hate him. And I think it's because he has a very hard exterior. I mean, it takes a little bit of inquisitiveness and curiosity to get to know the person underneath that hard skin. But I think advertising makes you try to make things and it's, you're constantly failing. There's this -- you know -- clients don't approve your ideas. You have to start over. You have to try again. You just -- I mean -- any, any artist, any creator, anything, right? You're just constantly trying over and over and over again. And I think that creates a little bit of a hardening. You know, once you got past his hard exterior, there was a softy in there. But -- you know -- it, it took a little bit of work to get there. [chuckling]

NK: Yeah. You know, you look at the advertisements and what he created from a different perspective than, than the rest of us. But you're a consumer as well. Is there one ad that he created that is your favourite?

MK: I love, I love his "Spike & Mike" ads. I mean, it's, it was just such an entertaining, insightful, I don't know if you know it at all?

NK: Yeah! Spike Lee, Michael Jordan. Yeah.

MK: Yeah. So basically, he saw a movie that Spike had, had made. And Mars Blackmon -- who's this character -- basically goes to have sex, and he doesn't take off his shoes when he gets into bed. [NK chuckles] So that kind of gave Riswold the idea of -- oh my God -- it's got to be the shoes! That -- I mean -- that created a whole campaign over -- I think it ran over six years or something. So, he, he really liked that relationship that he had with Michael Jordan, with Spike Lee. It's kind of one of the most memorable ones from the '80s, you know? And he changed this industry because suddenly you had pop culture and ads, which you didn't really have before.

NK: Mira, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you very much.

MK: Of course. Thank you for having me.

CH: Mira Kaddoura is a former colleague and friend of the late adman Jim Riswold. She's in Austin, Texas.

[R&B]

Tiny Vacuum Cleaner

CH: Oops, I'm about to smash a large jar of marbles.

SOUNDCLIP

[glass marbles smash]

CH: How clumsy of me. Well, I’d better get the normal-sized vacuum.

SOUNDCLIP

[normal-sized vacuum sounds]

CH: Umm-hmm. Um-hmm. Well -- now -- that's cleaned up. But uh-oh: now I'm going to knock over my tiny glass tube full of cupcake sprinkles!

SOUNDCLIP

[glass cupcake sprinkles smash]

CH: What a blundering oaf! Well, better get the Guinness World Record-breaking vacuum.

SOUNDCLIP

[tiny vacuum sounds]

CH: Ouch. Nature isn't the only one that abhors that vacuum! Ha ha. Does that make sense -- I think that sound did something permanent to my ears… And brain. But we played it to suggest that the vacuum we're talking about is tiny. In fact, this vacuum could accurately be described as "teensy-weensy". It is exactly a quarter of an inch -- or 0.65 centimetres -- in width. From the tip of the handle to the bottom of the sucking part, it's about 2.5 inches, or 6.35 centimetres long. And if that's not teensy-weensy, I don't know what is. But the reason it earned 23-year-old Indian college student Tapala Nadamuni the world record is that it works. He built it out of a ballpoint pen -- and added a tiny motor and a tiny fan, so that it sucks up a tiny amount of dust. So it's not very useful as a vacuum. But it's not about usefulness. It's about earning back the "smallest vacuum cleaner" world record he held four years ago. And it's about something that transcends the negligible amount of powdered sugar it could vacuum off a Timbit. It's about beauty. Mr. Nadamuni told the people at Guinness, "...my faculty told me that it’s the most beautiful creation they’ve ever seen." So, maybe he hasn't created a useful vacuum. But when it comes to aesthetic achievement -- and world records -- he's cleaning up.

[ambient]

Part 2: French PM Nomination, Maria Sibylla Merian Book

French PM Nomination

Guest: Jean-Claude Raux

CH: France's new prime minister is promising a "new era" for the country. But by any measure, that new era has already begun. This morning, President Emmanuel Macron appointed former European Commission Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier as the PM -- two months after calling a snap legislative election that left the country scrambling. The far-right National Rally won the first round of that election in June. But -- ultimately -- a leftist coalition known as the New Popular Front came out on top in the second round. And yet, Prime Minister Barnier has long been a member of the country's right-wing Republican party. Jean-Claude Raux is a member of parliament for The Ecologistes, one of the left-wing parties that's critical of Mr. Barnier's appointment today. We reached him in Saffré, France.

NK: Jean-Claude, what is your issue with Michel Barnier?

JEAN-CLAUDE RAUX: Well, we finally have a prime minister, but I would say even if we, we are not expecting anything good from the President Macron, it's one of the worst choices he could make.

NK: Why?

JCR: Because he's a very old politician -- former President Chirac and Sarkozy minister. And he's definitely a right-wing, conservative leader. And somebody who also comes from the only, the only political party who refused to, to block the National Rally thanks to the Republican front earlier in, in July.

NK: Your coalition won the most seats in the second round of this summer's election. But the French constitution states that, that Macron gets his choice of prime minister. So, is it really surprising to you that he would pick someone who he is more politically aligned with?

JCR: No, it's not a big surprise. But he could have tried something else. First, he said that the problem was Lucie Castets Then, he admitted that it was not her that was the real issue, but the program. And -- in fact -- we, we saw that he didn't want another camp to undo his reforms and to change the policies that he had been leading for, for now more than seven years. He took a big gamble. He's playing with a political fire. And -- this time -- he could have admitted that, that he had lost in July.

NK: Lucie Castets -- we should tell our listeners, in case they haven't been following along -- is the candidate for prime minister the NFP had put forward. But Lucie Castets had already rejected the idea of forming a coalition with Macron's Ensemble group. So -- I mean -- were you really expecting that, that he would appoint her?

JCR: A coalition is not really in the French tradition. And it was difficult just to, to imagine like that. But as the New Popular Front came, came first with 50 more seats than the, the, National Rally, the president could have let the Alliance try. And if it had not worked, then he could have said -- you see -- they are not able to govern. But we didn't even get a chance.

NK: But she's saying she didn't, she doesn't want to try to cooperate with everyone. And Macron has said the prime minister could not be a member of the leftist coalition to ensure -- quote -- the institutional, the institutional stability of our country, unquote. So, he's saying it would have led to -- I hear what you're saying and your position. But he's saying that in this already difficult time, it was going to create more instability.

JCR: Yeah. But, who, who could seriously think that dissolving the assembly just after the European election could make things more clear? So, he was really the only person to, to think that. We knew it would be complicated or even chaos if the far right had won the election. But they didn't.

NK: So, you're saying he created this instability to begin with -- if I'm hearing you correctly?

JCR: Yes, exactly.

NK: Michel Barnier -- as I understand it -- would need to survive a no confidence vote in the, in the lower house. What is the NFP planning to do if that vote happens?

JCR: We will have a no-confidence vote -- obviously. But there is a little chance that we would get to a majority on this vote. But we, we have to do it. The person is a problem, but the politics are a real problem. I think there is a majority in France now who think that they are fed up with Macron's policies.

NK: How would you describe -- Jean-Claude -- the last few months, and the political climate in France right now?

JCR: Well, it wasn't worse than before. I mean, the situation was even quiet in, in June, when we were working. It was a bit frightening because the, the solution -- as you, as you know -- came just, before the Olympic Games, and just after a vote that would lead us to think that the far right could win this election and could have a prime minister.

NK: What do you think the next few weeks and months are going to be like?

JCR: It will start on Saturday with demonstrations in the streets. With people showing the they are not happy because they think that this election has been stolen. Many, many people are angry. I heard the few, the few words of the new prime minister. He said that he would be listening to people. Said that he would respect people and the parliament. So, we'll see because the voters have not been respected. The MPs have never been respected since I was elected two years ago. And the president does anything but listen to people. So, I think the government will not be very different from the one we had just before.

NK: What would you need to hear and see from Michel Barnier to change how you feel right now? To make you think that, that he is going to do what he's going to say, what he's saying?

JCR: Well -- in his speech -- he talked about the public services. He talked about the schools, saying that it was our education, that it would remain the priority. I did not notice that -- so far -- it was a priority. If he follows that, now he will have to announce strong decisions. I'm just waiting for, for him not to, to make promises, but to act on things. But -- at the same time -- he mentioned insecurity, immigration to reassure the National Rally. So, so it was a speech for everyone. So, we'll see when, when he when comes to, to the National Assembly -- to the parliament -- soon.

NK: You've described the political climate so far to our producer as, as out of control. Where do you see it -- you know -- if I, if I was to interview you again in six months, where do you see the French political landscape?

JCR: It's very difficult to, to imagine because it can be worse. It can be a kind of, of, of chaos. Because if this government doesn't work, what is the next choice for the president? Will he keep on doing the same, for the last three years of his term, or will he resign? So, I don't know. But we, we really need to change things and to, to give hope to people who are fed up with what they've been living over the last years.

NK: Jean-Claude Raux, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JCR: Yeah, you're most welcome. Goodbye.

CH: Jean-Claude Raux is a member of parliament for The Ecologistes, one of the left-wing parties of the New Popular Front coalition. We reached him in Saffré, France.

[newsy theme]

MTL Bike Theft

CH: When your bike is stolen, it's always a bad day. But it was an especially bad day for Nicole Noon this past June when she learned someone had stolen her son's bike. After the disappointment settled -- though -- she took a number of steps, including registering on the 529 Garage app. That's a bike registry program that is used by various law enforcement agencies. And a few weeks later, Ms. Noon got a call. Her son's bike had been found. But after proving that it was his bike, Ms. Noon soon learned it was a good news/bad news situation. If she wanted the bike, she'd have to buy it back.

SOUNDCLIP

NICOLE NOON: It was about five weeks later, the police phoned me and they let me know that they had identified a bike in a local pawn shop. And it resembled my bike. They just needed to positively identify it. So, I was in the station, answered -- you know -- a number of questions, filled out the paperwork. And so, it was only at the very end when I was feeling very, very hopeful that the police explained to me that under the Civil Code, the pawnshop had legally purchased my bicycle from the thief. And therefore -- if I want it back -- I have to purchase it back for the same amount.

SEAN HENRY: Ooo! What was your reaction when they told you that?

NN: I was deflated. [laughing] I was incredulous and deflated. I didn't think that was right.

SH: So, tell us about that whole process of going to the pawnshop and buying back the bike? How much did it cost?

NN: So, the actual price was not so bad. Like -- usually -- the police tell me the price is about 25 to 40 per cent of the actual cost of the bike.

SH: Okay.

NN: In my case, it was a lot lower. But then, I realized because they had stolen it without the front tire -- and that wheel was a disc brake wheel, and worth quite a bit of money -- I'm looking at paying -- to get it back and to repair it -- about $600.

SH: So, you haven't bought it back yet?

NN: I have not. I'm, I want it back. I'm just hesitating at the price tag. And so, there's a few things that I think should change. First of all, I would like to see that there's a method to register your bikes with the serial number. I also think that people shouldn't be able to sell bikes without serial numbers. So -- if they've been ground off -- they shouldn't be allowed to be sold. And then, one of the things that could really help is, if a bicycle is being sold to a pawn shop, that the pawn shop actually holds the money until they've done a proper search on the 529 Garage app to see if it's been reported stolen. If that money was not immediately given to the thief, then the owner wouldn't have to repurchase it back.

CH: That's Nicole Noon speaking to Sean Henry -- host of Daybreak in Montreal -- about what happened after police found her son's stolen bike.

[R&B]

Vanc Stabbing

CH: Vancouver Police are calling two deadly attacks "unprovoked and random". Yesterday morning, one man was killed, and another suffered severe injuries in the city's downtown. About an hour later, police arrested a 34-year-old man they say has a history of mental illness. This morning, the CBC's Stephen Quinn asked Vancouver Mayor Ken Sim about a promise he made during his campaign in 2022 -- that he would hire mental health nurses to work alongside police.

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KEN SIM: Well, you can look at -- you know -- car 87, 88, and I went on a ride along, and -- as an example -- and saw them in action. And so -- in, on the ride along -- I went to, we actually -- the team actually -- got a call from family members of someone who was on the verge of a mental health crisis. And we met with individual, and we got the person to agree willingly to go to the hospital. And so, that was a great example of something being very proactive.

STEPHEN QUINN: Right. And where are the other 19 nurses working?

KS: Yeah. You know what? I don't know the actual details of where they're actually working. But we do have some people that are working in the VPD call centre -- for example. And what they're -- and I forget the number -- but they've rerouted literally hundreds of calls that would have previously been -- you know -- police calls to healthcare-related -- you know -- options. And so, what we have to realize here is this is something that -- you know -- we think is effective based on the data. And it's been proven out. And so, if we want to scale this, that would be one part of the solution. But we have to realize as well is to scale anything that's healthcare-related, these are not in the jurisdiction of the city of Vancouver.

SQ: But then, why would you make that promise? I mean, I think people told you at the time that it wasn't in the jurisdiction, within the jurisdiction of the city of Vancouver. And -- yet -- you continued to make the promise.

KS: Yeah. And that's, that's a great question. So, what we had to do is we had to think differently. We couldn't do what we did in the past. And so, we said, we are going to hire mental health nurses and prove the caseload. And we have proven the caseload. It is effective. We need to scale it now. And so, what we want the -- you know -- senior levels of government to do. And it's not just a Vancouver thing, we should scale this across the province. We know it works.

SQ: There was something else that you promised two years ago, which was -- and this just speaks directly to what we're talking about today -- an ABC majority will call for a mental health summit with the goal of establishing predictable funding and the creation of a new mental health centre of excellence through a regional model of care that incorporates treatment and recovery. What's happening with that?

KS: More to come on that in the very near future.

SQ: You've had two years to work on it. You can't tell us anything about whether this is going ahead. Have you, have you had meetings?

KS: We, we've had a lot of conversations, and there's more to come in the very near future.

CH: Vancouver Mayor Ken Sim, talking to Stephen Quinn -- host of The Early Edition.

[ambient]

Maria Sibylla Merian Book

Guest: Alex Alsemgeest

CH: When Maria Sibylla Merian made the journey from Amsterdam to Suriname -- which was a Dutch colony at the time -- I'm sure quite a few people were shocked. For one thing, it was 1699 and trans-Atlantic voyages were not very common. For another -- scandalously -- she was a divorcée! And she moved there with her daughter -- to study butterflies. What came out of that journey was a book of illustrations that changed how we view the natural world and started a conversation about women in science. Now, the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam has acquired a rare first edition of Metamorphosis of the Insects of Suriname. Alex Alsemgeest is the curator of library collections at the Rijksmuseum. And we reached him in Rotterdam.

NK: Alex, what's your favourite illustration from this book?

ALEX ALSEMGEEST: I think my favourite illustration is the second place that you find in the book. And it's a place that shows a pineapple. And if you look at the pineapple, you see straight away that you have all these different shades of yellow and green. So, it's really, it's an object that comes straight at you. And if you look closer at the place, then you see all different kinds of insects and butterflies, and this really captures the entire process that Maria Sibylla Merian tried to capture on the place.

NK: And butterflies appear quite often in her illustrations. She loved them. Where did that love come from?

AA: Well, that already started. Very early -- as a young girl -- she, started working with, with butterflies and with caterpillars. Later on in life -- when she, when she came to Amsterdam -- she got to know all these famous naturalists that were in the city. And she got to visit the botanical gardens. And she met all those people that had cabinets that showed tropical insects. And that is where she actually came across the butterflies that she would later study herself in Suriname.

NK: When she boarded that ship in 1699, what do you know about what she was hoping to achieve?

AA: I think she, she, she plans to go to, to South America for five years. And she had a very clear idea of what she wanted to do there. She had studied, the European insects before. And she really knew that it costs time to familiarise yourself with, with a different kind of natural world. And she wanted to study the entire process. And to get a very good image of that, you need, you need to repeat that several times. So, if you find a caterpillar and you want to know what is happening, just follow the whole process. And if you see that several times, then you get a sense of what's going on. And she was a really good observer, but also a very, very good artist. So, she could actually capture what she saw.

NK: And -- in the end -- she was among the first to record the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly in its natural habitat.

AA: Exactly. What made her stand out from, from her contemporaries was that she captured this whole process and she brought it together in one place. So, if I look -- again -- at, at the pineapple that's, that is in the book, then you actually see that there is a caterpillar with a red and white stripe across the entire body. And she mentions how a couple of days later, it turned into a pupa. And again -- one week later -- this beautiful butterfly appeared with all these fantastic colours. And not just that she, that she noticed it, but that she also brought it together against the background of the plant where she found those insects. That was something completely new.

NK: The other thing that was new that made her stand out is that, that she was a woman in this field. So, what was the reaction to her work?

AA: I think -- straight away -- she was recognized as a great artist. But she also wanted to get recognition as a scientist. And she did get that recognition in certain fields. But she also received a lot of criticism from people that said -- well -- we're not really sure that what she recorded there and what she wrote about really happened. And I think the best example of that is place 18 in the book, where she has drawn a spider that was actually eating a bird. And that was something that people in Europe had never seen before. And people responded to that -- well -- this, this woman probably made this up. This can not have happened in real life. And -- years later -- it was actually confirmed that this could happen.

NK: Was it confirmed in her lifetime? Did she get to say I told you so?

AA: [chuckling] No. Unfortunately, not. So, there's really, the, the full, recognition in biology came in the 20th century. But she, the name that she gave that spider in Dutch -- a literal translation -- would be bird spider. And that still lives on in the Dutch language. And I think that's some sort of recognition that she still gets.

NK: As important and seminal as her work is, it's also very important to mention the more recent criticism of her work, and not just of her work, but others in this field as well. She's been criticised for exploiting the knowledge of enslaved people in the Americas, of Indigenous peoples there as well. Tell our listeners a little bit about that part of the story.

AA: I think to fully understand this part of, of history, you need to understand that Suriname was a Dutch colony at the time. And the system that Maria Sibylla Merian ended up in -- well -- that was not a very good system. There was slavery, there was a plantation system, and she was part of that. In the book, it's just on one place that she, that she criticises this, this system, and that she actually mentions that she does not approve of the way that the Dutch are treating the Indigenous people. What is, and what you can also say about the book is that -- in the introduction -- Maria Sibylla Merian mentions that she receives a lot of information from Indigenous people. And one thing that she did very well was preserve original names. Of course, you talk to the local people and ask, what is this? How do you call this? And she records those names. But -- and this is really important -- she does not mention the names of the people that she took the information from.

NK: And what will it mean -- you know -- this, this knowledge and this important context, what does it mean for how you and your colleagues present this book? Obviously, you're not going to change this actual text -- this first edition. That will stay as is -- as it should. But when you put it on display, does that change so you can tell that bigger story?

AA: It is absolutely something that we will mention in the text that we present next to the book. And I think that is a perfect starting point when you discuss the book with, with other groups. And I think it is the reason that this is such a wonderful book, not just as a work of art, but because it's so fully connected to the Dutch colonial history. But also, to the very interesting life story of Maria Sibylla Merian herself that is, can be discussed in so many different contexts. And I think it's important as a museum that we not present a story to other people and just accept that, but that we present a work of art that can be the basis of further discussion and debate among each other. And that's what I'm really hoping for.

NK: Great to speak with you, Alex. Thank you.

AA: Thank you so much.

CH: Alex Alsemgeest is the curator of library collections at the Rijksmuseum. We reached him in Rotterdam.

[industrial]

Part 3: Feature: ‘A Sisters’ Tale’

FOA: Aurélie Rivard

CH: Quebec's Aurélie Rivard already had an impressive collection of hardware. And today, she added to it.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: [ fans cheering] Rivard, the bronze medallist in the 50, the silver medallist in the 100 is a champion in the 400 Free in Paris at 4:24:40. She beats Ali to it, reclaims a remarkable silver, and the world champion is on the podium with bronze. Rivard is now a six-time Paralympic Games champion, and three of those have been golds in this event -- in Rio, in Tokyo, and now in Paris, she's champion of the 400-metre freestyle S10.

CH: That's Aurélie Rivard winning gold today in the women's S10 400-metre freestyle at the Paris Paralymipcs. It marks the 13th medal of Ms. Rivard's Paralympic career. Now -- obviously -- that's a hugely rewarding achievement. But in the past, winning medals was not as rewarding as it should have been. Until this year, Canada's Paralympic athletes weren't compensated for their wins on the world stage -- unlike Olympians, who are paid for their medals. But -- in January -- the Canadian Paralympic Committee announced a new program that sees Paralympic athletes receive the same compensation as Olympic athletes. Ms. Rivard spoke with Nil just after that announcement. From Our Archives, here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

AR: Just knowing that your performances are -- and you are as an athlete also -- valued equally as an Olympian. It makes such a difference on the, on your self-esteem as an athlete, on your will to stay in the sport, on how long you want to stay in the sport. To know that you're supported, at the end of the day, makes an impact. And also, will encourage the athletes to make choices based on what's, on what's best for themselves and their career, and not on whether or not, or what they can or cannot afford.

NK: What else needs to happen now to level things for Paralympians beyond this money?

AR: Oh God! Well, there's still a lot of work to be done because I think the ultimate goal is to see the Paralympic gold medals that are worth the same as the Olympic gold medal in the eyes of the public. And so, that, that's going to, we will need a lot more work. So, in the change of culture and how we see the Paralympic athletes. How we view the Paralympic movement as well, the the visibility that we have and the coverage that the Games have. So, you know, there's still, there's still a lot of work to do, but I think today was, like, step one towards achieving this goal.

CH: From Our Archives, that was paralympic gold-medalist Aurélie Rivard speaking with Nil in January.

[island rock]

Feature: ‘A Sisters’ Tale’

Guests: Leila Amini, Afsaneh Salari

SOUNDCLIP

[A woman sings in farsi]

CH: Nasreen Amini wants to be heard. Literally -- but also figuratively. “In the clamour of the busy world, my voice is missing,” she sings. “Is silence my destiny?” For most of her life, Ms. Amini has dreamed of becoming a singer. And that is a difficult dream for anyone to achieve. But in Iran, it's also a dangerous dream. Since the 1979 Islamic Revolution, women have been largely prohibited from singing solo in public. And -- as demonstrated during Iran's Women, Life, Freedom movement -- the consequences for those who push back can be serious, sometimes deadly. Nevertheless -- in 2016 -- Ms. Amini made a decision to pursue that dream, despite the obstacles not just in her country -- but in her own home -- where se was raising two young children, and her marriage was on the brink of collapse. And that story is the focus of a new documentary that will be screening next week at the Toronto International Film Festival. It's called A Sisters' Tale. And that's sisters -- plural -- because the doc was directed and filmed over the span of seven years by Leila Amini, Nasreen's sister. Leila Amini joined Nil from Nottingham, England -- along with the film's producer, Afsaneh Salari, who provided translation from Paris.

NK: Leila, when was the first time you heard your sister sing? Can you remember that?

LEILA AMINI: Yes. [speaking Farsi].

AFSANEH SALARI: [translating] This started when I was a little kid. My dad had a very good voice, and he used to sing. My grandmother, she had a very good voice as well. And singing was a tradition in our home. So Nasreen started singing as a kid, and I heard her at that time.

LA: [speaking: Farsi]

NK: So, music has always been a part of your lives. What feeling do you get -- Leila -- when you hear Nasreen sing?

LA: [speaking: Farsi]

AS: [translating] I have had different sensations in different phases of my life. Listening to her voice. So -- when I was a kid -- it was very exciting to listen to her sing because our dad was a big support. He would encourage her to sing mainly in the family gatherings. And she was very brave and very bold to raise her voice and sing.

NK: You see that bravery and that boldness -- certainly -- even in the most difficult times in your film. You know, before you started making it, what was it about your sister -- maybe those characteristics you just mentioned -- but what was it about her and her dream that made you think this wasn't just a family story, but that there was a film there -- a documentary to share?

LA: [speaking: Farsi]

AS: [translating] I think the word bravery and courage is a key word, and that key word was something that inspired me to make a film about Nasreen because I think that's something very internal within Iranian women. Because they have a history of fighting and struggling. And Nasreen was not different from many other Iranian women because of that unique characteristics. So, this was something that inspired me to want to make a film about this characteristic.

NK: And now -- Afsaneh -- let me, let me ask you. You know, there are some situations where women can sing in Iran. But -- as we well know -- Iranian officials have a long history of cracking down on artistic expression, and certainly activists and artists whose work is politically motivated or political at all. Just give our listeners a sense of the rules in Iran around this, in women's singing, and the interpretation of Islam in Iran.

AS: When it comes to artistic expressions -- like many other kind of rules and boundaries in Iran -- it's very vauge. I mean, there are some rules really set. Like -- for example -- singing for women in public is forbidden. And that's a part of our Sharia law, right? So then, this is something carved in the stone. This is something that's part of our constitution. So -- by law -- this is forbidden. But then, you have many other mediums for artistic expressions which are not necessarily part of Islamic Sharia. And when it comes to those kind of expressions, then -- of course -- it can go case by case. But even for singing within social media and also the spread of -- you know -- a different kind of a medium where people can express themselves, then -- still -- I think there are some nuances, some grey zones. If you sing and your songs go viral, then you're way more monitored and risked than someone who may have -- like -- a small Instagram page with not many followers and sing, you know? It really depends. If something goes viral, then the authorities have to react.

NK: Yeah. And there are examples of that. Zara Ismaili is one of them. A singer who performs and shares their music online. Zara Ismaili was singing on the subway. And this video certainly did go viral.

SOUNDCLIP

[a woman sings is Farsi]

NK: Zara Ismaili's performing on that subway car without a headscarf. She was reportedly arrested in early August. Given that -- and the other arrests -- to say it is risky for Nasreen to pursue a singing career seems like an understatement.

LA: [speaking: Farsi].

AS: [translating] So, singing in Iran has always been forbidden. But at some point in our contemporary history, women started to campaign against any social or civil restrictions they faced, and one of them is the right to sing. There are campaigns and communities and civil movements being created in order to somehow get back the right to sing. And -- in a way -- at some point in this solidarity between women, it went even bigger than, than the right to sing. It becomes like a civil movement. It becomes like sort of a resistance that still can add to risks of what, what women are doing and what women are requesting. And -- personally -- I would also like to add that this kind of campaigning and this kind of civil movements are important because -- of course -- you add to the risk. But -- at the same time -- the authorities also have to step back a little bit. Because we have this expression in Farsi saying that one hand alone cannot sing. But if you add many hands, then -- you know -- you can start creating a very big voice, and you can start making a very big clap -- a very big crowd out of it. So -- in a way -- and the authorities, they have to step back, you know? They have to, and this is something that I can give an example of the scarf. Like two years ago -- before the Mahsa Amini movement -- it was so strange to go out in the street without a scarf. If you saw a woman without a scarf walking in the street, it would stand out. You would be like, because we would follow wearing the scarf so naturally because we were born and raised with that, and accept it following this law. But today -- when I go back to Iran -- you see many women, many young girls going out without the scarf because there was a movement behind it. The authorities, they had to step back. Still, they continue to arrest people. Still, they continue to criminalize the act of not wearing the scarf. But, for the people -- for the society -- this is becoming normalized. Why? Because many people got together in order to break something, you know? Break the taboo. And I think it's the same for singing.

NK: There are several moments in the film -- you know -- secret recording sessions in a car, in a dark, empty lot. Men on motorcycles come. Or when Nasreen and Leila are driving, Nasreen is driving, Leila has the camera on her, and there's traffic, and there's police around, and her headscarf slips, and they're worried -- you know -- not only because of the headscarf, but because of the fact that Leila is holding a camera. Those are tense moments where everyone stays very calm -- remarkably calm. But -- in those moments, Afsaneh -- how risky is it to be doing those things -- and for people to appear on film doing that?

AS: It really depends. I mean -- in a way, in Iran -- people get used to some sort of codes -- like security codes -- how you dress, how you behave, how you are and how you exist, how you move, how you speak. There are codes for that when you're out in the society and when you're out in the street in public. And it really depends to what extent you break these laws, you break these codes, and you pass the borders. And -- as I said -- there's not like a very strict red line for that. I mean, sometimes it can be very ambivalent, very vague. But it really depends how you play around them. And I think -- in Iran -- people have learned to turn around these codes in order to express themselves -- especially when it comes to artistic expressions. Our cinema has a very long tradition of using metaphors. Like, our filmmakers have a long tradition of using metaphors in order to express themselves. And I think that's part of the richness of Iranian cinema because it has all these layers. But also -- in daily life -- I think people have learned how to play around these codes in order to save themselves. And while cameras in Iran, you cannot carry around a camera to film everything, of course. But it's not also as if if you carry a camera then you will be arrested. It's something in between that people have learned to play around.

NK: In terms of the risks -- Leila -- was it difficult to get the music producers or others to agree to be in this documentary?

LA: Yes. [speakin: Farsi].

AS: [translating] there were people who did not agree to appear in the film because they were afraid those images will be used against them -- especially those who were doing all the records underground. There were also people who did not agree to appear because they were asking for a lot of money, but it was also very hopeful because we encountered people who took it really easy, and they wanted to be in the film, and they wanted to support Nasreen and support the film.

NK: You are listening to As It Happens, I'm Nil Köksal. And my guests today are Leila Amini and Afsaneh Salari, who are talking to me about their film -- A Sisters' Tale -- that is playing at the Toronto International Film Festival. There is a very telling -- and moving moment -- where Nasreen -- you know -- really wants to take music lessons. She doesn't have the money, but she borrows the money, not from her husband -- Muhammad -- but is asking her son -- who was about 10 at the time -- Hamid, for that money. Afsaneh, what does that tell us? What should that tell us about what women like Nasreen are facing?

AS: I think part of it shows to what extent a woman who works at home and doesn't have a job of herself can be dependent to her husband financially. And that later refers to us the fears of the mother and the other sister when Nasreen declares that she wants to divorce because she's financially dependent to her husband. But -- at the same time -- there's this connection and solidarity between Nasreen and her son. We are aware that it shows some sort of pressure on, on the young son. But -- in a way -- it shows that -- let's say -- the hierarchy of financial independence that Nasreen had to go to her husband to have money for her music class. But she cannot because he does not agree. Then, she has to turn to her son in order to receive that money. That was a challenging scene -- to be honest -- to include in the film because it's a little bit emotionally charged to ask the money from her son. He's too young to want to support his mother. But then, I think throughout the edits, Leila and our editor, they manage to craft this relationship as it matures as well. And by the end of the film, Nasreen chooses to become a famous mother, rather than to be a famous musician because she also treasures the trajectory she has spent with her son.

NK: It's a, it's a beautiful relationship.

LA: Can I, can I add some points?

NK: Of course -- Leila -- please, yes. [speaking: Farsi]

AS: [translating] This scene also emphasises the changes the new generation is going through when it comes to a woman who wants to pursue her dreams. And -- in a way -- Hamid, he shows that he believes in what she does, and he's going to continue supporting her as he grows up because this is something that is important to him. So -- in a way -- this reveals that this generation has a different view. A generation of men that they look at this desire for singing not as as something luxurious or not as something unnecessary for a woman, but as a necessity. And that's how he also engages in supporting his mother.

NK: And you mentioned, Afsaneh -- a moment ago -- their other sister who is in the film, and she really talks about the difficult situation they were in because their father has passed away. He's died. And she feels that Muhammad would treat Nasreen differently if their father was still alive. But she's also worried if this, if the separation or divorce goes ahead, that they will be destitute. They won't have money. They already don't have money, she points out. But in that scene -- and the others -- you know, you show how, how close this family is, how supportive the women are of each other. But the complexities of those relationships -- specifically in the context of, of Iran and what women there are facing. And -- you know -- there are times that they're pressuring her to stay with Muhammad -- even though this is a very unhappy, unhappy marriage. What were those scenes like for you? And I'll ask both of you to, to answer as you like.

LA: [speaking: Farsi]

AS: [translation] So, every woman in this film somehow represents a different generation and a different mentality of Iranian women in modern Iran -- and especially middle-class. So, the mother represents a traditional religious woman. So, it's obvious it's kind of a character that we, we somehow know. But Sara is the other sister who very worried about the divorce of Nasreen. She is an educated woman. She's also a modern woman. She has a job, she has an income. But still, she represents a sort of patriarchal mentality out of fear. Because she had a lot of fears that in a society where the woman may be in trouble if you lose your marriage, if you lose your husband. And then, comes Leila and Nasreen -- both of the sisters. In a way, they want to break this taboos and they want to -- especially Nasreen as a protagonist of the film. She wants to follow her own path because she does not necessarily believe in all those fears anymore.

NK: So, Nasreen pushes ahead. We, we see her looking for a job as well as pursuing her singing. Leila, is Nasreen still singing today?

LA: [speaking Farsi].

SA: Yes, Nasreen continues to sing with the same music composer that we see in the film that joins her in the end. She is now working on her new album, but she's also getting engaged in a new project for kids. She's writing lyrics and composing music for kids. And she is using her experience as a mother and her relationship with Hannah to speak to kids and bring some sort of awareness and joy to the world of the children -- both in Farsi and in English.

NK: Is it rewarding as a sister -- not just a filmmaker, but as a sister -- to, to see her in this place now, Leila?

LA: [speaking: Farsi]

AS: [translating] Of course, it makes me very happy. And Nasreen's bravery is something very inspiring and even contagious to me. So, whenever I'm afraid of something, I just remind myself of her and what we did together with this film. And I get inspired and motivated to continue.

NK: And I wonder, how has your relationship changed and evolved over these seven years -- how you how you see each other? Because she's really grateful to you. And really powerful moments when she says that to you, looks down into the lens, and talks about what your support has meant to her. How have things changed over the years?

LA: [speaking: Farsi].

AS: [translating] we have always been very good friends. We have always been very close. But I think throughout these seven years with this film and with Nasreen's past changing, something bigger than that friendship was born between us. In a way, I feel our forces, we really joined forces. And I feel there's one force that is keeping us together. As soon as one of us has something to do -- a new project or, or a problem or something -- we know that we have each other. And we have to, we can count on each other. I really feel that our sisterly forces have evolved greatly.

NK: the power of sisterhood, not to be underestimated. Did you worry ever -- though? Because you didn't know how the story would end. You're a part of it, certainly. But did you worry that it wouldn't end this way?

LA: [speaking: Farsi].

AS: [translation] I had many alternatives on my mind for different endings, different assumptions how this film may end, this story may end. And it wasn't easy because all these changes within Nasreen's life were happening very, very slowly. And there was even a period for a year-and-half that I stopped because I thought, the film is finished, the story is finished. I was not filming. But -- at the same time -- I was not sure this is the end I want for this film. And then, I took the camera again as I saw that Nasreen is continuing her path. And it was a very slow path, but -- at the same time -- steady. And I could feel that things are changing for her -- slowly and slowly. And I was patient, and I kept observing these little slow changes. To the point that I realised that Nasreen is actually feeling good in her skin. She's achieved something she wanted. But more than that, I could see some little confidence in her. And I realized this is the moment I can end this story because it's as if she's arrived somewhere.

NK: Yeah. How are your niece and nephew doing -- Nasreen's son, Hamid, who we mentioned, and Hannah, her daughter? Both adorable, and featured quite a bit in the film. How are they doing now? Apart. Okay.

LA: [speaking: Farsi]

AS: [translation] Hannah continues to paint and sing. I think she has inherited some sort of artistic talent from Nasreen. Hamid also continues to play guitar. Both of them are very drawn to music. But for me -- as theiraunt, and as someone who closely observed them for years, and filmed them for many years -- what's very important is that both of them -- of course -- they have been affected by the divorce and the conflicts and all these challenges. But I have a feeling that the future is not necessarily affected by the decision their parents made. Mainly because Nasreen and Mohammad, they made a lot of efforts to remain good friends and good parents. And to really take care of their children together. And -- for me, as their aunt -- this is the most important thing that could happen, that they still continue to keep a sense of family, even if they've divorced. And this is all for the sake of the kids.

NK: Afsaneh, you have made other documentaries about people creating music in difficult situations -- against all odds, really -- but also using music to survive those odds and difficult situations. I wonder what being involved in, in this documentary taught you?

AS: So, I think what really drives my passion most is to see stories of people that can inspire, but within all their normalcy and being ordinary. It's not extraordinary people with extraordinary powers that can change the world. No, these are very ordinary people from middle-class. People that you can face everyday in the street, whether in Iran, or in Paris, or in Toronto. And -- for me, with this story -- when Leila contacted me, I saw a very ordinary woman, a very normal woman. Someone like my own sisters who live in Tehran today. That is daring to dream. And she dares to dream in her very small room behind the closed doors of her bedroom in her apartment. And this was actually very more inspiring to me than seeing people making very big changes. Because there are millions of women like her. And -- at the time -- we spoke with each other it was right in the middle of Women, Life, Freedom movement. I was living that experience from far away in Paris, and I wanted to channel my restlessness into something. And I think that project was the best project I could get involved to. Because I got inspired by Nasreen's daring as well. And -- again -- I'm faced with a very normal person that can be me, can be everyone. And I think that's the most inspiring thing about this woman and about this project.

NK: Yeah, it's interesting that you say that. And powerful what you said there. When I was watching it as well, I thought -- obviously -- this is a very specific context in Iran. They're up against a lot. But I could see very easily people, women -- wherever they're watching -- in similarly difficult marriages and situations. I can see them relating to this and feeling that connection. And -- Leila -- I wondered what you what you hope audiences at the Toronto International Film Festival -- but elsewhere -- take away from watching your family's story?

LA: [speaking Farsi]

AS: [translating] So, I think the most important is to leave the room with the sensation of acknowledging that we are all allowed to have dreams, and we're all allowed to have wishes and to follow them. And sometimes, to have just one single support can make things happen for us -- whether to be that support or whether to look for that support. And I think these are very shared human experiences, very shared human emotions that I really hope this film can transfer to people who watched the film in Toronto.

NK: Leila, Afsaneh, I'm, I'm very glad we could speak. Thank you for making time for us.

AS: Thank you so much, Nil. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

LA: Thank you so much.

NK: Likewise. Thank you so much.

AS: Thank you. Thank you.

CH: Leila Amini is the director of A Sisters' Tale. She's in Nottingham, England. Afsaneh Salari is its producer. She's in Paris. The documentary will screen next week at the Toronto International Film Festival.

The AIH Transcript For September 05, 2024

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