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The AIH transcript for January 27, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Rolling in the DeepSeek. That's the name of a new made-in-China A-I chatbot that has suddenly exploded in popularity, imploding the stock values and dominance of the existing, U.S. industry leaders

CH: Exit strategy. The Anglican Bishop of Goma tells us about fleeing the Democratic Republic of the Congo just before Rwandan-backed rebels entered Goma -- and about the work required to restore peace.

NK: Clearing the heirlooms. The boxes were handed down from his grandfather, to his mother, to him -- and now, writer Timothy Taylor will share the story of his grandfather's journey out of Nazi Germany with us.

CH: Going the opposite way of the dodo. We'll hear from one of the scientists trying to bring that flightless, unfairly maligned bird back from the dead, after a few hundred years of extinction.

NK: Shelf care. Months after it was damaged by anti-immigrant rioters, Liverpool's Spellow Library is open once again -- thanks to a woman who believes community spaces deserve all the support a community can muster.

CH: And...course correction. Fans of professional golf on TV are fed up with games they say go on way too long -- and they have the support of those who believe all golf on TV is way too long.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday Edition. Radio that's frustrated by Sunday drivers.

Part 1: DeepSeek AI, UBC War Archives, Liverpool Library Reopens

DeepSeek AI

Guest: Shelly Palmer

CH: Its intelligence is artificial -- but the chaos it's causing is very real. Today, the top free app on the Apple store is an AI assistant from the Chinese startup DeepSeek. It's an open source model that the company says was developed at a fraction of the cost of its competitors, like OpenAI, Google, and Meta. There's no way to confirm that. But the claim has definitely rattled the U.S. tech market. At the opening bell, tech giants -- like the company that manufactures chips used to develop AI -- saw their stocks plummet. And when I say "plummet", I mean the industry is on track to lose about a trillion dollars. The app appeared to have gone down today due to demand, and what the company says was a potential cyber attack. But it's still creating a lot of anxiety about the future of the artificial intelligence industry. Shelly Palmer is the CEO of the Palmer Group, which consults on tech for Fortune 500 companies. He's also a professor of advanced media at Syracuse University. We reached him in New York City.

NK: Shelly, I think it's safe to say many, if not most, of our listeners are hearing this company named DeepSeek for the first time. What the company has been able to do in a pretty short amount of time has stunned people right around the world. Was it a surprise to you?

SHELLY PALMER: Well, when you say was it a surprise? Every morning, in the world of A.I., we get surprised. So, what we found ourselves looking at was a piece of software that was algorithmically efficient to a level we hadn't seen before, probably 90ish per cent cost savings with almost identical quality. So, yeah, this got everybody, [chuckling] this got everybody thinking real hard.

NK: And those two things that you mentioned are two of the, the main things people are pointing to when they, when they talk about how this is different than what people have, have come to know. ChatGPT and what OpenAI does, that's, that sort of thing. What other differences so that people, so our listeners can sort of compute themselves, what this is?

SP: So, what's practically important is there are no differences. There are two kinds of models out there right now that are generally being used by or generally people who are aware of. One are large language models, which I think everyone knows what ChatGPT is or has had a little bit of an opportunity to sit at a chat client and have a conversation about any subject, basically. Then there's this new class of program OpenAI brought out, o1. And rather than accomplish a single task or a single search, you know, tell me the answer to this, do this, do that, what the reasoning engine does is thinks through a problem. So, you give it a goal and it will accomplish the goal as opposed to just doing a task. Now, what's fascinating about DeepSeek is that for a very small amount of money compared to what OpenAI spends to train a model like GPT-4, call it six months and $500-$600 million. DeepSeek says they trained DeepSeek's model in under two months for under $6 million. Now, no one knows if that's true or not, but it probably is true. That is a pretty giant cost savings. And DeepSeek does basically what OpenAI's tools do.

NK: We should mention we haven't independently verified that they actually spent just $5.6 million to do this. The other thing, though, that is clearly catching a lot of people off guard is the issue of the chips needed to, to build this kind of AI. It usually comes from the U.S. company Nvidia. They did use chips, but less advanced ones. Is the reaction we're seeing on the financial markets so far because of that fact?

SP: Yeah. So, let's talk about that for a second. The way that DeepSeek-R1 was trained is supposed to have been off of the GPT-4 model. Now, it is true they did not have the computational capabilities set to do this with brute force. They did it with what's known as algorithmic efficiency. They literally wrote code that would allow the model to be trained without the benefit of all of the massive amounts of Nvidia chips that OpenAI uses to train GPT-4. This is the part that makes it cheap to do and fast to do. Now, there's no way to verify all of this, but a lot of people are speculating that because China was restricted from having the chipsets. We don't ship, the West is unwilling to ship certain levels of technology to China, that they were forced to do this. What I think everyone's missing today is that we've got a lot of smart people here in the West, too. And the gantlet has been thrown down. I would not have wanted to be in the room when Mark Zuckerberg was told what V3 was capable of because his open-source model, Llama, is not capable of that, and did cost an awful lot of money to train. And he's, you know, basically said, hey, I got $60 billion going into $60-$65 billion I'm ready to spend on my AI training next year. And, all of a sudden, here's a company spending $6 million, and they're taking him out to the woodshed. There's no way you wanted to be an engineer at Meta when, when this was revealed the other day. [NK chuckles] And I think the most important lesson today is not whether to take, is not whether we're going to need data centres, big compute, Nvidia chips. That's always going to be in question. What are we, do we need the best chips? Yes. Do we need the newest, bestest chip? Yes. Because the volume and velocity of data is increasing and will always increase.

NK: Well, that's good that you mentioned the data centres because we've talked about them on this program, the environmental concerns, and the ramifications in terms of climate change. So, a lot of people will look at what DeepSeek has done and said that this really changes things in terms of AI and those concerns. You don't see those concerns going away, though, it sounds like?

SP: No. Look, they're going to say that because they're going to say that. But in practice, we don't know the future. And anyone who believes they understand the future of AI through the lens of this week's events with DeepSeek is delusional.

NK: We should, we should also mention the company limited registrations temporarily because of a cyberattack. There were some outages on its website as well. Are there privacy or security concerns here that, that may not apply to other AI systems?

SP: So, you, look, if you, if you're, if you're Chinaphobic, if you think China is the boogeyman or if you don't want to deal with China, don't use their website and don't download their app. What I, what we did, what we're doing for our clients, what we're doing in our company is we've downloaded the open-source model. you can go to o, Llama, download it and spin it up yourself. It'll run on a laptop. The small versions will run on the laptop. It's not required that you use their website.

NK: What's, what has your experience or your clients' experience been? What are they telling you?

SP: Everybody loves this. This is like, [chuckling] we have clients that were spending $70,000 a month on their AI compute. They're spending under, calculated to spend under $6,000. Look, this is the business we're in. It changes every day. And it is literally creating a culture that can adapt, a business culture that can adapt to new technology with, with, with ease or with minimum, with minimum pain. And that's what everyone's trying to do. And, and that's where we are in the world right now.

NK: Shelly, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SP: All right. All the very best.

CH: Shelly Palmer is the CEO of the Palmer Group. He was in New York City.

[Indie rock]

UBC War Archives

Guest: Timothy Taylor

CH: For years, there were boxes of documents tucked away in Timothy Taylor's family home. But he never saw what was inside. His mother kept the boxes for decades. They were filled with letters, photographs and other documents -- meticulously collected by his grandfather. And together, they revealed his experience as part of a Jewish family living in Nazi Germany, and his road to escaping the Holocaust. The vast collection amounts to 10,000 pages of family history -- pages Mr. Taylor only saw for the first time a few years ago. Now, he's starting to share that history with the world. Today, he released the first episode of a podcast about the collection called The Hidden Holocaust Papers. The release comes on International Holocaust Remembrance Day, and the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. Timothy Taylor is also an acclaimed writer and professor of creative writing at the University of British Columbia. We reached him in Vancouver.

NK: Professor Taylor, how does it feel after the personal journey you've taken with, with these materials and with this archive to have at least some of it, some of that history out in the world, especially on this day?

TIMOTHY TAYLOR: Yeah. Well, I'm excited to add to a conversation about the suffering that war brings. And to give it a very particular illustration, which is the life of my mother and her mother and her father, particularly. So, this archive has opened up their story in great detail to me. And I think there's value in looking at these stories in, in their details.

NK: You knew, as I understand it, that, that all of this existed, but you hadn't seen it up close. Is that right?

TT: Yeah, I was really vaguely aware that my mother had what she referred to as "Opa's boxes". Opa being the name we used for my grandfather, my maternal grandfather. And he, she seemed a little exasperated to have these, honestly. But I was a teenager, and I didn't take much notice. So, it wasn't until my father passed away, in fact, that the boxes came to me, which was what my mother told my sister that she had wanted. And my mother said that I would know what to do with them, which was, [chuckling] had left me feeling rather challenged.

NK: [chuckling] At once, you know, maybe, maybe a little bit proud that she had that faith in you. But the pressure, certainly.

TT: I guess I, I was really uncertain. And so, I began to reach out and speak to people who knew what the significance of a trove of documents like this, what that, what that meant. And I was able to quickly get some opinions on that. And that encouraged me to, to get the documents donated to the proper archive as soon as possible because they were under my piano in banker's boxes. And that is not a safe place to keep documents of this age. So, on the advice of a, of an archive appraiser, I took them to be looked at by the Vancouver Holocaust Education Centre. And at that point, I knew very quickly that the papers had found a home.

NK: What was their reaction?

TT: I, I think they shared the reaction that the archive appraiser had. His name is Steven Lunsford. And he said, he just said astonishing. It was just, he was just astonished by what he was reading. It was a two-sided correspondence, which has archival significance. Often, correspondences are kept in people's attics, only one side, right? And so, my grandfather had carefully kept both sides. This provided for a really granular level view of the exchange between him and my great uncle Hans, who was living in New York City. So, the men were writing letters back and forth.

NK: What did those letters, and the detail in them, what kind of insight did they give you into your grandfather's experience during the war?

TT: I can only make a preliminary comment because they're in German, but I can say that what emerges is the, is the, the beginning of a profile of a person and a family who were rejected politically and they were forced to leave, they were refugees, and they were lost. And in my grandfather's case, they were quite angry.

NK: And besides those letters and photographs, there was also a trove of, of other things. What kinds of things did he keep?

TT: He kept everything. And the first things I noticed were that he kept sort of all the details from his path of flight out of Germany, east by train through Russia, and then by boat from Yokohama to Guayaquil. So, I had his passport, of course, with all of the stamps. I had a very detailed itinerary that he typed up. Every stop of the train was noted. It's really, really remarkable. I have menus from the dining saloon of that ship. It's a lot.

NK: Yeah. You're a writer. As we've said, you're a storyteller. So, they are telling you a story, all of those, those artifacts. But is it, is it painful for you as well?

TT: It's been an emotional journey. And getting to know in some more detail what my mother went through during the war as she was left behind in Germany. Only my grandfather was able to escape. That has been perhaps the most emotional part of the journey for me. I have had the experience of getting to know, on a much closer basis than she was willing to share during her life, the details of what she went through, starting from when she was 14, and 15, and 16. And I feel almost as if I am a parent to her memory at this point. It is if somebody had done something injurious to my own child. It's a strange feeling, honestly.

NK: Like many, many survivors, they, people just, they couldn't talk about it. They couldn't talk about it at the time. What did you read that you would want to share with our listeners today about your mother?

TT: Remarkably enough, I discovered letters in the archives that she wrote to her father in 1948. So, it has taken three years for the International Refugee Organization to sort out how they're going to reunite the family and Guayaquil, which is where my mother ended up postwar. And she said at that point to her father in a letter that she didn't want to hold hard feelings against Germans unless she repeated the mistakes of the Nazis. She was 18, and she was idealistic. And her grand, her father, my grandfather, was much angrier than she was. But I've had a chance to talk to other survivors and I've been interested in the response. Some came out feeling that way as if they really wanted to put it behind them. Others felt quite differently. But among people close to the tragedies in question, there's a kind of respect for the young person who tried to take that stance initially and so quickly that some sort of personal forgiveness and moving on was required. At the same time, the archive represents this very complex mixture of reactions from my grandfather, from my great uncle, and from my mother, as well as others. There are other, other people have contributed to this archive. And when she indicated to my sister that I would know what to do with these documents, I think part of the job is going to be to try to net and balance these reactions and say something sensible about what this sort of tragedy means to us all today.

NK: Well, Professor Taylor, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

TT: Thanks so much for speaking with me today.

CH: Timothy Taylor is a writer and professor of creative writing at the University of British Columbia. We reached him in Vancouver.

[ambient]

Liverpool Library Reopens

Guest: Alex McCormick

CH: Patrons of Liverpool's Spellow Library know it's a special place. And now, they know they can't take it for granted. In August, the library was damaged in the anti-immigration riots that gripped cities across the U.K. The violence broke out after an attack at a girls' dance class in Southport left three dead and several more injured. Far-right influencers were quick to claim the attacker was an asylum seeker. In fact, he had been born in the U.K. The disorder that followed saw rioters target public buildings, including the Spellow Library, where a fire was lit. Now, months later, the library has reopened to the public, in part thanks to Alex McCormick, who started a fundraiser for the building. We reached Ms. McCormick in Liverpool.

NK: Alex, what was it like for you to walk back into the library since it reopened?

ALEX MCCORMICK: Honestly, it was just so overwhelming and such an amazing thing to experience. I think seeing the way that it's transformed from that initial few days after the damage to now, when it is very much open and thriving again, was just incredible.

NK: Take us back to, to that day when it was damaged, when the books were damaged, and when you learned about what happened. What did it look like and feel like on that day?

AM: Sure. It was just awful to see. I think it's such a beautiful space. It's got really gorgeous floor-to-ceiling windows. And they'd been used as the entry point from the rioters. So, initially, that was kind of what you were hit with was all that shattered glass. And the fire had been started right at the entrance there where they'd managed to get in. So, the pictures were really distressing. And, obviously, there was smoke damage all over the walls. The windows were shattered, bent books. And it was just, I think it's sad to see more so because you wonder why anyone would destroy a community space like that. And then, sadness for the people who use that space, and for the children who would have used it over the school holidays who obviously couldn't access it because of the damage.

NK: You love libraries, clearly. This isn't your, your local one. You go to a different library. So, what was it about what you saw and what was happening in your area broadly at that time that, that made you not only want to visit but start this fundraiser?

AM: Sure. I just think that as a society, we've got to be better than burning books and destroying libraries and community spaces. And I think it really goes against everything that I believe in. I think we should protect these spaces. They serve such a grand purpose in our community, and they're so accessible for everyone, young, old, everyone in between. So, it doesn't matter that it wasn't my local library. I think I would have felt the same if I'd have seen those images anywhere in the world.

NK: What was it like for you to see? I mean, it was so volatile, and dangerous, and upsetting for anyone watching, you know, what was unfolding in the summer. What was it like for you?

AM: I just think it's so horrible to see, especially because the riots came off the back of what happened in Southport. I think we should have been able to grieve those little girls, and really show some respect and support for their families. And it was such a quick turnaround between that happening, and then riots happening just down the road, but then up and down the country that we didn't really get a chance to properly process that. And we didn't give those families space to process it. And that's something that really hits hard for me, that they should be so looked after and supported in that time and for however long they need that support for. So, to see the shifts then where people were being destructive was just heartbreaking.

NK: The destruction and those riots have ended. But how do things feel now?

AM: I definitely think things feel better. I think the way that people rallied around the library and the other spaces that was destroyed in the riots, I think that was really symbolic of how most of the city and most of the country feels. I've said this time and time again, but 11,500 people donated to the fundraiser, and that was just the money donations. We had hundreds of people donate physical books as well. There wasn't 11,500 people on the streets causing that trouble. So, the goods definitely outweighs the bads.

NK: When you, when you first started that fundraiser, what was your dream result? What were you thinking you would accomplish?

AM: The fundraiser purely was set up to replace the books that had been burnt. In my mind, we could replace the books. So, the target was 500 pounds. I thought maybe if we go a little bit over that, it could go toward repairing the library. And I didn't ever think that we'd actually get to that 500. And then, it just obviously went out of control, and people really rallied.

NK: [chuckling] Yeah, 250,000 pounds. That's about $450,000 Cdn. One of the librarians was quoted in The New York Times as saying that, you know, this is, I'm paraphrasing, but just what an astronomical, unfathomable number that is for any library.

AM: Yes. Just absolutely crazy. And, I mean, the, the beauty of it is that the money can be spent now on improving that space and putting on more activities for kids, for teenagers. We can do a lot more community outreach with it. And so, that community will really feel the benefits of all that fundraiser. And I think that'll be really exciting to see.

NK: Because wherever they are, libraries are often a community centre, a hub of activity, and not, not just for for books, though that's what brings many of us to them. What have library staff told you, Alex, about what these last few months have been like for them?

AM: Do you know, the staff at Spellow are just absolutely incredible. And I think that they deserve such praise for the way that they managed to get through everything that happened. Obviously, that's a space for them that they know and love. And to wake up on that Sunday morning and see it so badly damaged, I think it would have been soul-destroying. And instead, they are all so strong. They all really rallied. They've been very involved in getting the library back up and running. And it's been a privilege for me to get to know them. I think through all of this, I've made people who I will be in touch with for the rest of my life. So, that is such an honour.

NK: That's a lovely thing to hear, Alex. I'm very glad we could speak. Thank you.

AM: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

CH: Alex McCormick helped raise over $400,000 dollars for the Spellow Library in Liverpool after it was torched by rioters. We reached her in Liverpool.

[hip-hop]

Slow Golf

CH: You've probably heard it said that golf is a good walk spoiled. In fact, you probably heard it on public radio: under international law, I have to say it in every story about golf. Look, I'm just trying to stay out of prison. Now, people who hate watching golf might assume that there's no way to further spoil that spoiled walk. That seeing golf on TV is already like watching paint drying, while a commentator quietly remarks, "if the wind picks up the paint may dry slightly faster -- but it's also possible that the paint will continue to dry at this exact rate." But these days even golf people are losing patience with golf. Yesterday, the final group of three at the Farmers Insurance Open tournament teed off at 11:11 a.m. -- and concluded their game at 4:40 p.m. That means it took them a full five hours and 29 minutes to finish 18 holes. And midway through that monotonous marathon, reporter Dottie Pepper had to say something.

SOUNDCLIP

DOTTIE PEPPER: You know, Frank, I think we’re starting to need a new word to talk about this pace of play issue, and it’s respect for your fellow competitors, for the fans, for broadcast -- all of it. It’s just got to get better.

FRANK: Well said.

CH: That really is a respect issue. Now, non-fans might argue that golfers could show more respect for TV audiences by not playing golf on TV. But even fans are fed up at this point. Tournaments are getting longer and longer because some golfers are taking longer and longer between shots. Sometimes to the point where the light fades, and organizers have to halt play. There are growing calls for major reforms including shot clocks and penalties for competitors who take too long. And the PGA shouldn’t be afraid of going overboard. Or viewers might not get over boredom.

[folk]

Part 2: Goma Attacks, Bring Back Dodo

Goma Attacks

Guest: Martin Gordon

CH: The Democratic Republic of the Congo says it's neighbor has declared war. The accusation follows reports that Rwandan troops had invaded the eastern part of the country. At the same time, the Rwandan-backed M23 rebel group is claiming to have entered Goma, a regional hub that's home to more than 2 million people. Martin Gordon is the Anglican Bishop of Goma. He left the DRC on Saturday and, for safety reasons, he's asked us not to say where we've reached him.

NK: Bishop Gordon, what were you hearing and seeing on Saturday that made you decide that you needed to get out?

MARTIN GORDON: Well, the British government, along with the French and the American government, had asked all their citizens to leave. That was on the Friday. And on the Friday evening, there was one of the power lines, the main power lines the city, was hit. There was limited power anywhere in the city. And the water shortages in some parts. So, the Rwandan troops had not yet crossed over the border into the DRC. That happened Sunday morning. And so, there was a lot of people trying to leave at the border post, but there wasn't a real sense of panic. There was an orderly leaving. But in town that day, as we drove Saturday around about lunchtime, it was eerily quiet. So, people were already starting to stay in their homes. And many of the shops that should normally have been opened weren't open. So, there was a sense of foreboding. But at that point, a kind of orderly exit. Whereas on the Sunday, and then today, obviously, things changed significantly for the worse.

NK: As things have changed, how has that, all of that, hit you?

MG: It's, it's tough. It's tough not being there, and hearing patchy information. So, hearing from two of my clergy, one who just said he, he's hiding behind his door, terrified and trembling, and hearing indiscriminate firing in his, his neighborhood. Another saying that he's there with his brother, hiding under the table, but his wife and his kids are safe. And knowing that they're without power, knowing that food prices have gone through the roof because M23 captured one of the key ports on the lake on Monday. And knowing that the Internet has been cut. Knowing that 4,000 prisoners escaped from the main prison is just difficult to know what to say to those who are left in Goma, recognizing that, you know, we had the means to leave. We've got friends that we're staying with outside of the country. But just knowing how traumatic it is for a part of the world and a part of the country that is already deeply, deeply traumatized.

NK: In 2012, there was an M23 takeover of Goma, but it ended in about 10 days. There was international pressure, intense pressure, on Rwanda and others at that time. Does this time feel different?

MG: I mean, there was this sense of some residents of Goma that we've been here before. We'll just bunker down; it only lasted nine days, and then they'll be gone. This is already feeling different. The, the start of the assault, really, was yesterday, yesterday morning. And, as we speak now, it's still not clear which parts of the city are under M23 control and which parts are under FARDC control. But also, there has been a huge amount of political will and political capital spent in the last 13 years since 2012, particularly the last three or four. As President Tshisekedi, when he came to office, did reach out to President Kagame of Rwanda. And all sorts of bilateral deals. We had the Nairobi peace process, the Rwanda peace process, the last meeting of which was scheduled for December the 15th. And President Kagame, at the last minute, decided he wouldn't attend. So, it seems that it's difficult to know exactly where this will go, but I would say I'm slightly more pessimistic than I perhaps would have been had I been around in 2012, which is why we need the African Union, really, to step up. And I'm pleased that President Ruto has called an emergency meeting for tomorrow and the next day. But also, the international community. There's a sense in Goma of being abandoned. Why are people looking the other way? We have been highlighting and documenting the atrocities that have been committed. There's a UN a group of experts report that documented very clearly all of the M23 atrocities. And there was a meeting of the Security Council even yesterday. But, but, you know, fine-sounding words are not going to lead to peace in eastern Congo. It needs to be backed up by international action. And the Congolese people have been calling on the international community to impose sanctions for four years.

NK: Are you worried, Bishop Gordon, I know you said this time feels, feels different. Are you worried that it feels like war is coming, a broader war?

MG: I mean, arguably, I mean, this and what the Congolese speaker said at the UN Security Council yesterday, I mean, it is a declaration of war. When, when Rwandan troops enter the territory of another sovereign country, that is the declaration of war. And I think this is, there is the sense, certainly the Congolese response is that Rwanda has declared war on, on DRC. We need to work very carefully at de-escalating all of that, and to pursue all options for peace. The war is in no one's interest. Even the Rwandan representative, permanent representative to the Security Council said yesterday, we will not find a solution to this conflict through war. No one will win. And so, I'm hoping that with the focus of the international community, and particularly the African Union, that we can do everything we can to find a solution for peace.

NK: Bishop Gordon, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

MG: Thank you very much. Thank you.

CH: Martin Gordon is the Anglican Bishop of Goma in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And for safety reasons, he's asked not to say where we reached him.

[chillhop house tour music]

Recycling Sorting Dog

CH: A lot of us feel like our pets are a part of our families. But they are freeloaders. I mean, we give them room and board, and clean up after and behind them, and all they give us in return is joy and love. Hey, learn to read the chore wheel, Mr. Snuggles! This is why you have to admire Jett, the German Shepherd. A dog who actually helps out with things like sorting the recycling, or carrying groceries. Jett is currently in the running to be American Favourite Pet: he made it into the Top 15 of the international competition. Derek Molter is Jett's owner. He told the CBC how he -- Jett, that is -- learned all these tricks.

SOUNDCLIP

DEREK MOLTER: Basically, it's just a variation on fetch. You know, you get him to bring stuff to you, then you get him to bring it over here, then you get him to put it in this bin. You know, it's stages. It takes time. You know, he wasn't born knowing how to do that, obviously, but I just worked with him. I don't teach him, you know, roll over, that kind of thing. I teach him useful skills, to me. He started becoming well-known out here in Brock just because of the people seeing us always walking over to Save On sitting outside the store by himself. It really ramped up when people would see me hand him the grocery bag when I come out of the store. And he would just carry it proudly, you know, all the way home. People honk, and yell, and wave. It's actually kind of funny. And --

JENIFER NORWELL: So, not only does he sort your recycling, he also carries your groceries?

DM: Yeah. Yeah, he'll carry anything I want.

JN: I mean, this is the kind of useful we're talking about.

DM: You got it. And then, October of 2020, we had an interaction with our garbage man. Any time before that that I was out working in the front yard, and he came by picking up garbage, he would stop the truck, get out, and hand Jett a cookie. And they would have a little interaction. There were a couple weeks in a row where we weren't around, and I didn't know this at the time, but I got home after garbage collection and there was a note in the mailbox saying, look inside. So, I looked in and there's a whole little pile of dog cookies. -- about two to three weeks' worth of treats. I just thought it was kind of a kind gesture. So, I put it out in the Brock group. Hey, this is what our garbage guy did for us, and it just went viral. It was insane the amount of attention he got. He's on the Internet again because of a photo contest. He's been in for the last two to three weeks, and dominating the rounds. And we're just rooting to get him back up to first.

CH: That was Derek Molter speaking to Jenifer Norwell on Daybreak Kamloops today.

[instrumental]

Bring Back Dodo

Guest: Beth Shapiro

CH: How often do you think to yourself, "wouldn't the world be a better place if it still had the dodo in it?" Yeah, me too -- very often. For a long time, the dodo lived a joyful and safe existence on the island of Mauritius, until that was rudely and lethally interrupted by human settlers. Now, it's been over 300 years that the dodo's been as dead as an...extinct bird. But now, a group of de-extinction researchers is trying to bring it back. Beth Shapiro is the Chief Science Officer at Colossal, a bioscience firm working on de-extinction. We reached her in Santa Cruz, California.

NK: Beth, you went from not thinking that the dodo needed to come back, you were against it, you thought it was a bad idea, to now having a tattoo of a dodo on your body. [both chuckle] What changed?

BETH SHAPIRO: Well, the, I think the order of operations is a little off there. [both chuckle] But I, I think I never felt that it shouldn't happen. I was more of a skeptic about the technology. You know, when people think about de-extinction. What comes to mind is this idea that we're going to bring back a 100 per cent identical copy in every way of a species that doesn't exist. And I am still 100 per cent on board with the idea that that won't ever happen, right? So, I think what really did change was, you know, the technology, and the way that I really started thinking about this differently. And we don't need a perfectly identical dodo if what we want is to put a bird back in the dodo's habitat and restore some of the roles that the dodo used to play in that habitat. And this is really what has shifted in my thinking about the de-extinction.

NK: And when you do think about dodos in particular, when you're looking at that tattoo or thinking about the technology and the science, what kind of feelings does this creature evoke in you? What gets you excited about this?

BS: [chuckling] When I was a graduate student, I was at Oxford and we had an ancient DNA lab. This is the field of science that I was in where we extract DNA from, from bones and pieces of skin and stuff like that from from animals and plants that used to be alive. I would walk by the Oxford dodo specimen every day on the way to our little lab, and it would always make me think, you know, we're working on all of these tools. We're trying to understand these animals that used to be around because we want to understand what kind of impact people had on ecosystems. And no one even knows what kind of bird the dodo is, right? I really wanted an opportunity to take a piece of that dodo, and grind it up, and extract its DNA, [NK chuckles] and at least figure out [laughing], you know, what kind of bird was it, right? And I did finally manage to do that. It took a bit of, of trickery. I was able to use the DNA that we recovered to show that the dodo is a type of pigeon.

NK: So, to bring it back, how do you do that? What is the technology and the science?

BS: So, first we need to know what made a dodo look and act like a dodo instead of, like, other types of pigeons. And we do that by going out and collecting pieces of dodos, and extracting their DNA, and learning their whole genome sequence -- the DNA code that makes up the dodo. And we do the same for all the closely related species of pigeons. So, we're going to compare their DNA sequences on a computer and ask where the dodo has changes that are likely to have made the dodo look and act like it does. Then, because it's not like Jurassic Park, we're not just stitching pieces of DNA together and filling it in the middle with frog DNA or whatever they did in Jurassic Park, we're going to start with a cell from a Nicobar pigeon because they're the closest relatives. And so, we have a backbone of what our dodo is going to look like. And then, we're going to use the tools of genome editing. And here what we'll do is it'll essentially allow us to cut out of the genome the bits that are Nicobar pigeon-like and paste in their place the bits that are more like a dodo. So, we're essentially cutting and pasting our way from a Nicobar pigeon genome to a dodo genome. And then we have to turn those cells in a dish in a lab into an actual bird. And this is where I think it gets really cool. So, right now, we don't have tools to do genome editing in bird species. We can edit and then clone mammals. Everybody's heard of Dolly the Sheep.

NK: Sure.

BS: The most famous cloned animal. But we don't have the technology to use these same tools in birds. And the avian team at Colossal is working on exactly that.

NK: There are people who are listening who will be so excited about the prospects of what you're describing and others who will be concerned about the ethical side of things. And maybe, you know, people will feel, will feel both things as they hear this. They can be excited and have questions, ethical concerns as well. There are those who say, you know, you could, you could use this money to help save animals that are still here but endangered. They worry about, you know, damage to current ecosystems. You mentioned the Jurassic Park descriptions that people's minds often go to that kind of worst-case, even cinematic, scenario. But what do you say to those concerns?

BS: Oh, you know, there are a lot of concerns associated with the science and the funding, etc. and I absolutely agree with most of these. Addressing the funding in particular, you know, we are in a period of time where there is a biodiversity crisis going on. And I really think we need to be building this suite of tools that we have to combat this crisis. The funding that Colossal has received to develop these technologies, and all of these technologies as we push toward mammoths and thylacines or Tasmanian tigers and dodos, will be immediately applicable to real-world practical conservation problems. This funding did not come from people who would have supported traditional approaches to conservation. And I am definitely not saying that we should be doing this instead. Instead, I think this is a, this is a both and scenario. We need to be increasing what we can do, at least looking out and allowing ourselves the opportunity to evaluate what risks there might be. You know, as for the other suite of, of potential hypothetical risks, we as people have been manipulating the evolution of the species that we encounter for as long as we have existed. First, by making things go extinct, and then by taking a gray wolf and turning it into a chihuahua and a great dane. And agriculture, all of this is using our brains to figure out how to manipulate the evolutionary process. These tools are different from that, but they are kind of the next step along that path. And I really think it's something that if we are going to push ourselves toward a future that is both biodiverse and filled with people, we really need to explore what we can do that is in a safe and ethical approach.

NK: And how far in the future is, is your dodo, do you think?

BS: [chuckling] That's a great question. In fact, I really always get that question and really try not to answer it. There are a lot of technical hurdles to be surmounted. And I really want to make sure that people are working toward deadlines that are aggressive but also achievable. This is a new space, and we want to be able to do it in a clear, and clean, and ethical way. And don't really want to be pushed by artificial deadlines because, you know, the chief scientist went on the radio and said we were going to have the dodo in a couple of years. [both chuckle]

NK: Beth, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

BS: Thank you so much.

CH: Beth Shapiro is the chief science officer at Colossal, a bioscience working to bring the dodo back. We reached her in Santa Cruz, California.

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Two Thousand Quilts

CH: If you ask me, one quilt is an impressive achievement. All those layers of fabric, the stitching, the patchfork, the...thee…batting. Batting? Is it the batting? Quilters, let me know. In case you can't tell, I am, regrettably, not a quilter. But Donna St. Jules is. She's the president of the Stitches from the Heart Quilt Guild in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. And 20 years after it began, the Guild's "Comfort Quilt" initiative is on the verge of donating its 2,000th quilt to a family in need of comfort. Here's how Ms. St. Jules describes it.

SOUNDCLIP

DONNA ST. JULES: A Comfort Quilt is a lap quilt that has been stitched together by our members who volunteer their time and their talents, and quite often with donated fabric as well. And because the quilts are stitched with love and they provide so much warmth, we often look at it as giving somebody a hug when they need it most.

MARKUS SCHWABE: And what do you hear from the people who receive these quilts?

DSJ: They absolutely love receiving these quilts. It's, it's wonderful for them because they get a quilt at a time in their life when they're feeling very vulnerable, when they're feeling very scared. And the quilt gives them the comfort that they need. And they know that they're not alone. I think that's one of the most important things. That they know that there are people in the community who care deeply for them.

MS: Can you really feel the love from a piece of fabric?

DSJ: [laughing] The love for fabric starts when you're in the fabric store because there's so many beautiful colours, and styles, and varieties. And then, trust me, as you're working on a quilt, and as you see it coming together, the love that you have for the quilt definitely grows. And I love sewing quilts for other people because as I'm sewing the quilts, I'm thinking about the person that I'm sewing it for. And I truly believe that I'm transferring all of that love from my heart through my hands into the fabric. We often get some lovely thank you cards from people who have received the quilts, telling us how much it's impacted them, and how much they enjoy the quilt. Sometimes, we'll get pictures of people who were using the quilts, and it just warms our hearts.

MS: Do you find it hard ever, though, to, to give away a quilt because it's such a beautiful piece of art that you've created?

DSJ: I certainly take pictures of some of the quilts that I have created. And, I do love the quilt. Sometimes, it's hard to give it away, but the minute I see the look on the recipient's face, it is all worth it. Because I know that they're going to love and cherish that quilt as much as I did while I was making it.

MS: Why are you a quilter, Donna?

DSJ: Oh my goodness! I've only been quilting for about five or six years. And I had no idea that I would become so passionate about this particular hobby. In fact, when I first posted my, my first quilt, one of my long-term friends had joked that my Facebook account had been hacked [both laugh] because it definitely was not something that I've ever done. But I love how good it is for me spiritually and emotionally. I love being creative. It's just so good for me on so many levels. And it's an opportunity to have something that's very functional at the end as well that you can pour all of your creativity in a quilt, or a wall hanging, or a table runner, or pillow, or anything like that, and then have it being used afterwards.

CH: Donna St. Jules is the president of the Stitches from the Heart Quilt Guild in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. The guild donates quilts to incoming residents of a long-term care home in the community -- and children who need to travel from The Soo to cities like Toronto for medical care. She was speaking with the CBC's Markus Schwabe.

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Part 3: Jenin Raids, AB COVID Report

Jenin Raids

Guest: Mariam Barghouti

CH: Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are returning to what's left of their homes in Northern Gaza today -- after Israeli forces began allowing them through checkpoints that had blocked virtually all access to the region. That follows Hamas's release of four more Israeli hostages over the weekend -- in exchange for some 200 Palestinian detainees. Meanwhile, the head of Israel's Shin Bet security service has signalled that the country's focus is now firmly on the occupied West Bank. And Mariam Barghouti is witnessing that firsthand. She's a Palestinian writer and researcher who's ordinarily based in Ramallah. This week, she's in Jenin -- where Israel Defense Forces recently launched what they're calling "Operation Iron Wall." That's where we reached her, earlier today.

NK: Mariam, can you give our listeners a sense of where you are right now and what is happening around you?

MARIAM BARGHOUTI: Yeah, I am currently in Jenin. I'm staying in a, I'm staying in a hotel just outside the city. And there are drones in the sky 24/7. On occasion, you're hearing bangs, which is usually as a result of the explosions that is happening inside Jenin refugee camp. And there's military presence predominantly everywhere in the district. So, we'll see them passing every once in a while. So, it is very tense here and it is very violent. We're seeing airstrikes. We're seeing the use of excessive live ammunition. We're seeing field executions and field interrogations and torture. So, the situation is very ugly. It's the ugliest I have seen.

NK: I know you haven't been able to, to get into the refugee camp in Jenin yourself, but you are, you have been speaking with ambulance workers who, who have made it in. What have they told you?

NK: In addition to the Israeli military operation, there's also a confrontation. It's been, it's been playing out for weeks now, a deadly one as well, between the Palestinian Authority and the Jenin Brigades. What kind of conversations are you hearing about what should be done about the presence of those militant groups in Jenin?

MB: Right. So, what I need to understand that this is actually a joint operation by the Israeli military and the Palestinian Authority. So, according to sources we have spoken with, they've been coordinating together. And again, this Operation Iron Wall was preceded by Operation Protect, owned by the Palestinian Authority, which was as lethal as the current one. At least 14 Palestinians were killed in that. So, in terms of the collaboration between the PA and the Israeli military and intelligence is under the Oslo Accords, where there was a security. Now, the Palestinian Authority has adhered to these accords. However, currently what people are seeing is that this is no longer in adherence to the peace agreement of '93, '94. That the Palestinian Authority is actively going against their own people. And they're seeing them as traitors to the cause and acting as a proxy army for Israel.

NK: Last week, UN security General Antonio Guterres told delegates in Davos at the World Economic Forum, quote, there's a risk Israel will feel this is the moment to annex the West Bank, unquote. You live in Ramallah. Is that a concern you share?

MB: Absolutely. We're seeing unprecedented rates of outposts being erected around the West Bank. And in the last 15 months, the emboldenment of settlers has increased dramatically. They're even driving too deeply into Ramallah, which historically hasn't been a thing. But now, we're seeing more settler presence in the area that otherwise was not there, and more settler expansion at the same time. So, it's a very big concern because that does seem to be the goal, the annexation of the West Bank.

NK: The Gaza ceasefire is holding at the moment. Does this escalation, or the situation in the occupied West Bank, what does it mean from where you sit about the prospect of that ceasefire continuing to hold?

MB: I think in regards to trying to use the West Bank as a provocation to end the ceasefire is a misconception. Now, we need to also understand that the Israeli military has been trying to carry out a large-scale operation in the West Bank long before October 7th, long before the ongoing war, and long before the ceasefire right now. So, I don't think relating them has, has, is a smart thing to do because it makes it seem as though this is new. And I think now the focus with the ceasefire is to just adhere to the agreements placed between Hamas and Israel in which the West Bank was not discussed.

NK: Mariam, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

MB: Thank you.

CH: Mariam Barghouti is a writer, researcher and contributor to Drop Site News, who is based in Ramallah. We reached her today in Jenin, in the occupied West Bank.

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Peter Greste

CH: Writer and human-rights activist Alaa Abd El Fattah is still in prison in Egypt. The dual British-Egyptian citizen was supposed to be released in September after serving five years. He was convicted in 2021 for sharing a Facebook post about a prisoner who died in custody in 2019. But Egyptian authorities are refusing to count the more than two years he spent in pre-trial detention towards his time served. That pushes his release date to 2027. When we last talked about Alaa Abd El Fattah in December, his mother Laila Soueif was well into a hunger strike, in an attempt to push the British government to do more to free her son. This past weekend, she hit day 117 of her hunger strike, during which she's consuming only green tea, water, and rehydration salts. And now, journalist Peter Greste has joined her cause. He's a week into his own hunger strike. In 2013, Mr. Greste was arrested on terrorism charges while working for Al Jazeera in Egypt. He told Democracy Now! host Amy Goodman about meeting Alaa Abd El-Fattah in prison.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER GRESTE: The first, one the first voices that I heard when I went in there was Alaa's. I was confused. I was scared. I didn't know what on earth was going on, or even where, or much about where I was. I didn't speak Arabic. And so, I was very, very disoriented. And Alaa reassured me. He explained what, what had happened and what his understanding was. He told me where I was. He said that I'm amongst friends. And he also gave me some of the psychological tools that I really needed to survive prison. After that period of solitary, we often walked up and down the exercise yard together, and I really got a sense of who he was, an extraordinary thinker, a political thinker, and a writer. He gave me master classes in Egyptian political theory, and history, and sociology, and so on. And, you know, he also inspired me to write two letters that we smuggled out of prison that really described my imprisonment as an attack on press freedom rather than as any judicial process related to anything we've done. And that really framed the campaign that ultimately got me out. And so, for all of those reasons, I quite literally owe Alaa my life.

AMY GOODMAN: His little boy growing up without him. His mother did visit him a few weeks ago, and Laila herself, Professor Soueif, is in the 117th day of her hunger fast. And you've now joined her?

PG: Yeah, that's right. She's a remarkably tough, resilient, extraordinary woman. But she is now entering the danger zone at 117 days into a hunger strike without any food, without any calories whatsoever. I mean, it's remarkable that she's lasted this long. But obviously, the whole point of this as this hunger strike is to precipitate a crisis. She does not want to die. This is not a suicide mission from Laila. What she wants is to demand justice. She wants to really put Alaa's case at the top of the minds of the Egyptian and the British authorities, and make sure that Alaa comes home.

CH: That was journalist Peter Greste speaking with Amy Goodman on Democracy Now!

[folk]

Auschwitz Liberation Anniversary

CH: Today marks the 80th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi concentration and extermination camp Auschwitz. Kings and queens, presidents, prime ministers and other dignitaries from 54 countries attended a ceremony today, at Auschwitz -- where more than a million people, most of them Jews, but also Poles, Roma Soviet prisoners of war, and LGBTQ2S+ people were killed. This year’s ceremony skipped speeches from politicians to focus on survivors and their stories. Those survivors are now in their late 80s and 90s, and are among the last living witnesses to the atrocities. Tova Friedman was just six years old when she was liberated from Auschwitz. She shared her story during the commemoration today.

SOUNDCLIP

TOVA FRIEDMAN: I was just six-and-a-half years old when I was liberated from Auschwitz. I remember as a five-and-a-half-year-old child watching from my hiding place in Stutthof labour camp as all my little friends were rounded up and driven to their deaths, while the heartbreaking cries of their parents fell on deaf ears. After all the children were gone, and the courtyard was empty, I thought to myself, am I the only Jewish child left in the world? Shortly thereafter, we were loaded into cattle cars. The men and women were separated. This was the very first time I ever saw my father cry. Up until then, no matter what horrors, no matter what happened to us, we were together, the three of us. We were a family. But now, he was sent to Dachau. And my mother and I to here, to this camp -- Auschwitz Buchenwald. Hot, hungry, thirsty, and very terrified. I held on tightly to my mother's hand in the dark cattle car for countless hours while the cries and the prayers of so many desperate women permeated my soul, and haunt me to this day.

CH: That was Auschwitz survivor Tova Friedman speaking at the ceremony commemorating the 80th anniversary of the liberation of that concentration camp.

[newsy theme]

AB COVID Report

Guest: Braden Manns

CH: It's been almost five years now since the World Health Organization declared COVID-19 a pandemic. And for nearly as long, there have been debates and disagreement about how governments should react to COVID -- and whether mistakes were made, especially in the initial response. Three years ago, after securing an election win in Alberta, Premier Danielle Smith and her minister of health requested a deep dive into their province's pandemic response. And last Friday, the Alberta Pandemic Data Review Task Force released its report. Among other things, it questions the value of many pandemic restrictions. It also recommends halting the use of COVID vaccines, quote, "without full disclosure of their potential risks", unquote. Dr. Braden Manns has been critical of the task force since long before the report was released. He's a physician in nephrology and internal medicine, and a former co-chair of the Alberta Health Services COVID-19 scientific advisory group. We reached Dr. Manns in Calgary.

NK: Dr. Manns, I know you've read this report in its entirety -- cover to cover. What are some parts that you read that really concerns you?

BRADEN MANNS: Well, there's snippets of evidence used in a few different areas, but there are a few areas that are really concerning. And the areas that I'd be most concerned about would be in the areas of vaccination and therapeutics. You know, what medications we should or shouldn't be using for COVID-19 or for future pandemics.

NK: And from what you can tell, where was this task force getting its data and information to make its recommendations?

BM: That's, it's an important question. The usual process of setting up a task force like this is you identify an expert committee that represents all sorts of different expertise and different perspectives, and then an independent evidence review is commissioned. So, the members of the committee aren't doing the evidence review, pulling evidence from different places. There's an independent review. You go out and speak to the public, you speak to health professionals, you speak to people who were in ministries of health, and you ask them about what worked, what didn't work, what were their experiences? And then that balanced expert committee would bring all of that together. What seems to have happened here is that the conclusions, the conclusions seem to be written first, and then data was sought to support them. So, you've got an eclectic mix of anti-science talking points, some, many of which have been debunked by experts and fact-checkers, particularly statements around vaccination, statements around the effectiveness of things like ivermectin. You've got screenshots from scientific journals with arrows and some words added in bright colours. You've got some data statements that are unreferenced. But when you look further at them, they certainly seem to come from social media posts that went viral in past years. There's some scientific citations. It's a mix, a mishmash.

NK: We reached out to Alberta's health ministry for comment, and we received a statement in response. And they say the recommendations, quote, offer a perspective on how the government can be better positioned to protect the health and safety of Albertans in the future, unquote. There are those who will look at this, and look at the reporting around this report, and may be listening to this conversation who will say, who believe, you know, those screenshots and some of the information in there, and think that legitimate differences in opinion were quashed during the pandemic. And they'll say, you know, doctors are trying to hide the truth. What do you say to people who believe that the medical establishment is against rigorous debate and discussion about this?

BM: Well, Premier Smith was looking for a contrarian view, and she certainly found it. And she certainly got that contrarian review in this report. And we do need a healthy debate. There are different perspectives on the impact of public health measures on our health system, but on people's ability to go around in a free way, to visit restaurants and malls, kids to go to school. There were real negative effects of some of these different public health measures. So, it's fine that there's different perspectives, but there shouldn't be different underlying facts underlying that. You know, I was one of the co-chairs of the scientific advisory group which made recommendations to health system leaders and and to the chief medical officer of health during the pandemic. And this notion that we were trying to harm the public, and that we weren't taking other perspectives into account, or a notion that physicians are somehow out to get a certain segment of the population, or that everybody is in the pockets of a pharmaceutical industry, it's just, it's not accurate. And it, really, it's dangerous. The pandemic was a very confusing time. And when you see a report like this, it's sitting on a government website with very polished-looking figures, people, physicians who the public trusts, arguing about very different figures, you know, the figure that's included is based on a whole bunch of very poor-quality studies. You know, I can present a figure that just includes the higher quality studies that shows a very different result. And that must be very difficult for the, for the public.

NK: We should mention in April, you and Dr. Lenora Saxinger called for a review of the response to the pandemic. You were pushing for that. But we should also mention that the statement from the Alberta health ministry to us said also said, quote, Alberta's government will review and consider this report and its findings. However, no policy decisions have been made in relation to it at this time, unquote. Do you think what is in this report will actually, eventually, find its way into government policy?

BM: Oh, I, I think so, yes. I think there's the report, and then there's the sentiment that goes into the report. And a government intentionally, well, in some situations, governments intentionally select specific individuals with who they know hold contrarian views. And then, lo and behold, the report comes out and shares those contrarian views. They also hire consulting companies based on similar ideology. So, is it the report that affects whether COVID-19 vaccines are paid for? Is it the report that leads to changes in government governance that allows local groups to make their own decisions and not to have a, you know, a provincial decision made? Or is it just the underlying perspective of the government that has put together this committee? I guess that's hard to say. But, again, this report is sitting on a government website next to other reports that presumably are more balanced, and have actually looked at data in more rigorous ways. But how are members of the public meant to know that one report has had a much lower bar for the evidence that got into it or the information that got into it?

NK: Dr. Manns, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

BM: You're welcome.

CH: Dr. Braden Manns is a physician in nephrology and internal medicine and a former co-chair of the Alberta Health Services COVID-19 scientific advisory group. We reached him in Calgary.

[chillhop house tour music]

Loneliness Robot

CH: Alex Rose wasn't sure how to describe AIRO. So the 12-year-old Victoria, B.C. entrepreneur had his invention explain itself.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEX ROSE: I haven't actually asked it that before. How would you describe yourself? Give me a five-word answer.

AIRO: I'm a friendly, helpful, and curious robot companion.

CH: Now, the robot is made up of a phone, an Xbox controller, and a, quote, "off-the-shelf robot arm," unquote. You know, the kind you just get from the robot-arm shelf. Alex programed his contraption to behave sort of like a pet, but a pet that talks, thanks to a connection to the generative artificial intelligence of ChatGPT. And Alex says AIRO's not just another AI gimmick -- it's a product with a purpose.

SOUNDCLIP

AR: The example I like to use is in a seniors' home, where there's like people who don't have as much social interaction. And they go and they buy one of these robots, and then they have someone to talk to every morning. And since the robot doesn't sleep, it doesn't get tired. So, you're up in the middle of the night, and you just want someone to talk to. You're, like, lonely or whatever. And then, and then you can just say, and then the robot talks to you. And it's not like the dystopian future they imagined where it's like everyone's talking to the machine and there's no human. There's, they're, like, shutting everyone out. Everyone's on their VR headsets, talking to their AI friends. That's not what's going to happen here. It's going to be, like, another alternative for people who don't have enough social interaction in their lives. And people have discovered that without social interaction, people, like, it's kind of like a medical condition. And the goal here is that people aren't going to be here forever. So, I want people to have, have the best life they can. And that's what this is. It's about not having people feel lonely. And what I like to say all the time is don't treat this is going to be like a replacement for all human interaction. It's going to be a method, especially because I have autism. I knew kids who had autism and didn't have many friends, so that's one of the reasons I like making these. It's because people who don't, who need, who need to have social interaction, but just, like, don't have anyone to talk to sometimes, going through stuff, they can talk to the robot and it listens, it learns, it's just someone to talk to and to interact with. And that's really, that's really in short supply nowadays.

EMILY FAGAN: What has it meant to you to see it being that companion for other people, even in, like, the trials that you've done so far?

AR: Well, like, one of the things that makes me happy about it is that it's, it's very, it's very cool to see people, like, talking to the thing that you spent, like, hours creating. That's just like a very rewarding experience to see it out in the wild doing stuff. And I feel like anyone who builds things can say the same. Like, having it interact with a person and having it work flawlessly after, like, the two years you've spent working on it, which is, like, how much I've spent working on this, it's very rewarding. And it also, it's not just rewarding for me, it's rewarding for the other people who use it.

CH: That’s 12-year-old Victoria, B.C. robot entrepreneur Alex Rose, speaking with the CBC's Emily Fagan last week.

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FOA: Unfinished Quilt

CH: As tonight's show comes to a close, I'd like to describe one of the many inspirational posters I've hung up here in the studio. This one says "Winners never quit...and quitters never win." Although the truth is I got halfway through hanging that one up and got tired, so I gave up. And there should also be one that reads: "Winners always quilt -- and quilters never quit." You can use that if you want. That's what we all learned from Donna St. Jules. As you heard earlier in the program, the Sault Ste Marie, Ontario woman is the president of the Stitches from the Heart Quilt Guild, which is about to donate its 2,000th quilt to a family in need of comfort. And that reminded us of another quilting story that shows what you can accomplish with pure determination -- and plenty of help. In 2019, Shannon Downey told us about taking on an ambitious, unfinished quilting project she found at an estate sale -- even though she didn't know how to quilt. Instead, she turned to her online community to "stitch" in. From Our Archives, here's Ms. Downey explaining why she decided to take the project on.

SOUNDCLIP

SHANNON DOWNEY: When I had walked into the house and seen the beautiful completed embroidered map on the wall, and I had fallen in love with her stitching. And then when they directed me into the bedroom, they thought they were directed me to just some stitching materials. And when I went in, and I opened the Tupperware container, and I saw what it was, I just sort of sat down and thought oh, my goodness, I have to do this.

CO: What was in the container?

SD: It was an unfinished quilting project. But it was all like totally laid out, and all of the squares were sort of prepped. And she had started stitching New Jersey. That was what was on top. And it was like a state map quilt.

CO: Wow! Big? It's a big project?

SD: It's massive [laughing]. That's why I almost started crying [laughing]. Because I was just like oh no, this is going to take forever, but I have to do it.

CO: Oh my gosh! And this is, of course, the project, Rita Smith, who died last August at the age of 99. This is the estate auction you're at. And this was her project?

SD: Yeah, it was. I talked to her son, and he thought that particular project had probably been sitting around the house for about 20 years — that she had stopped doing major crafting projects because she was taking full-time care of her husband who was ill.

CO: Why does this matter so much to you?

SD: As a crafter, and as a maker, and as a woman, you know how much goes into something that is hand-made. But historically — and currently — there is very little respect or admiration for the amount of work that goes into creating a piece of art when it's made in fiber or by women. And so when I found this, and I thought of this woman who had lived 99 years, and had been making her entire life, you know, the completed piece on the wall I bought for five dollars. Like, I know how much time and effort and energy went into that. And then going in and seeing this uncompleted project, I had to finish it.

CO: You're doing this for Rita.

SD: I'm doing this for Rita.

CH: From Our Archives, Shannon Downey telling our former host, Carol Off, why she took on an ambitious unfinished quilting project. She eventually did finish it, with help from hundreds of strangers online.

The AIH Transcript For January 27th

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