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The AIH Transcript for January 23, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: The worst for both worlds. An Ontario tool and die manufacturer tells us Donald Trump's threatened tariffs won't just hurt Canadians. Americans will pay the price too.

CH: Hearing them out. Canada's Supreme Court says it will hear an appeal of Quebec's Bill 21, which bans religious symbols on the job. And that's an appealing development to our guest. A hijab wearing teacher in Montreal.

NK: Thai-ing the knot. Today was the first day same sex couples could legally get married in Thailand. And after waiting impatiently for years, our guest finally did just that.

CH: They are bullish on its recovery. A team of forest rangers in New York managed to free a trapped bull moose from a lake after it fell through the ice. And they say it stayed reasonably cool despite the unreasonable cold.

NK: Dressed to kill. The Canadian costume designer behind the gothic horror film "Nosferatu" is now an Oscar nominee. She tells us authenticity was the key to making the actors drop undead gorgeous.

CH: And liquid gold. Workers in England dig up a 200 year old bottle and must be restrained from drinking what they believed was rum. Which is good because analysis determined that for some unknown reason it was centuries old urine. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that hopes researchers can solve a wee mystery.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ont. Tool And Die, Thai Same Sex Marriage, Nosferatu Costume Designer, Old Urine

Ont. Tool And Die

Guest: Etienne Brom

CH: Donald Trump had a message for international business owners today. The U.S. President said a lot of things during his remote address to this year's Davos summit, including this.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: My message to every business in the world is very simple come make your product in America and we will give you among the lowest taxes of any nation on earth. We're bringing them down very substantially, even from the original Trump tax cuts. But if you don't make your product in America, which is your prerogative, then very simply you will have to pay a tariff.

CH: That message was presumably meant for people like Etienne Brom. Mr. Brom is the president and CEO of ETBO Tool and Die. ETBO supplies the auto parts industry from its plant in Aylmer, Ontario. And that's where we reached Mr. Brom.

NK: Etienne, you heard the U.S. President there. There's a promise and a threat. What do you make of those?

ETIENNE BROM: Well, yes, you're absolutely right. There's a promise and a threat there. And I think what's important to do is to listen to his message and maybe understand his desires, so his desires to build the United States back up again and to bring back U.S. manufacturing, to build the middle class and to build society. And in general, perhaps that is a good strategy, the using tariffs as a leverage, obviously, I think that will work. From the Canadians point of view, I think that we need to stay the course and maybe not get caught up in being overly concerned. We have every right to be overly concerned. But I think we need to understand that Canada has a bilateral trade with the U.S. that makes us probably one of the best trading partners with them out of anyone. And if we get into a tariff war, I totally believe there's going to be tariffs. But if we end up in a tariff war, the only person that loses is the taxpayer.

NK: Let me jump in, Etienne. Let me just jump in for a second, if you don't mind, because what I'm hearing and what you're saying is that you'll believe it when you see it, though the threat may be real, but that you're trying not to let the uncertainty faze you. How do you do that when you and other businesses I mean, this would be a big hit for you.

EB: It would be a massive hit for us. We employed 200 people in southern Ontario, primarily focusing on type tolerance, automotive work. I can't let this be all consuming. We have to be wide eyed and we have to plan and do the best we can, but we don't know what's being suggested yet, so we can only worry about what we can worry about and we can only worry about what we can affect change on. And at this point until February 1st, there's nothing I can do.

NK: How do you manage that stress?

EB: Well, most days pretty well. Maybe having a really good hobby with first robotics and working with teenagers helps mitigate my stress because I can focus on other things, but it's pretty tricky. As a business owner, you have to be able to compartmentalize that stress a little bit because you could let things consume you all day long, every day, because there's always something important to worry about. But I think you just have to try and compartmentalize it into the bucket of things I can do something about right now and things I can't. So I think I'll know more in seven days.

NK: There's also that suggestion that we heard that businesses, wherever they are in the world, should just move their operations to the United States. Is that something that you would ever take seriously?

EB: It would not be my first choice. I'm not, I can't say whether we take that seriously or not. I don't think we're at that point. You cannot pivot to business or pick up and move a business in that short a period of time. So, no, it's not something I can take seriously immediately. Locations in the U.S. as well as locations in Europe have been an expansion strategy of ours, and have been in management discussions for four years, so I can never say never. But an immediate pivot? No. And I guess fundamentally, I have accountability to, you know, we're a family run business. We've been a business for 67 years. We have 200 people working for us, 200 mortgages, 200 families, 200 people with dance lessons and soccer lessons and university tuitions. So job one, day one is not to abandon our employees. Job one, day one is to negotiate a path through this that supports our employees and supports our community.

NK: Play for you Etienne, just a bit more of what the U.S. President said today.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Canada has been very tough to deal with over the years, and it's not fair that we should have a 200 billion or 250 billion dollar deficit. We don't need them to make our cars. And they make a lot of them. We don't need their lumber because we have our own forests, etc., etc... We don't need their oil and gas. We have our, we have more than anybody.

NK: I'm not trying to make your blood pressure go up Etienne, but if you had his ear, what would you say to him?

EB: I think what I would say is 34 of the U.S. states, their primary export market is Canada. 1.4 million U.S. citizens are employed primarily on exports to Canada. We need each other. We are not a threat and we are not part of the problem. Our economies are very similar. Our standards of living are very similar. Our business costs and operational costs are very similar. So we are the ideal competitor. We are not in any way a threat. The trade relationship needs to happen. You know, we don't grow oranges here. And I'm looking out my window right now. And without access to foreign fruit and trade, you know, scurvy is something that that be on our plate. [laughter]

NK: [laughs]. Just to add to the serious worries.

EB: Yeah. So I'm probably most pleased with hearing Mr. Trump start out with saying, you know, they're a very tough bunch and they're, you know, they're good negotiators. And I'm quite proud of that because as much as we are humble and apologetic, we do need to understand that both of us have leverage. Our economies are intertwined. And there is a solution that can be worked out between the two of us that makes both of us grow. And we are stronger together than we are divided. But I think we just need to understand and listen to what everyone is looking for and see how we can come to as much common ground of that as possible.

NK: Etienne, a pleasure speaking with you. Thanks so much for this.

EB: You're very welcome. All the best. And as a journalist, you're going to have a busy four years and an exceptionally busy seven days.

NK: I think you're right, Etienne. Thank you.

EB: Take care.

CH: Etienne Brom is the president and CEO of ETBO Tool and Die. We reached him in Aylmer, Ontario.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Thai Same Sex Marriage

Guest: Naphat “Jim” Krutthai

CH: At 8:00 this morning Bangkok time, Naphat “Jim” Krutthai and Rasi Jindasri were among the first couples in line to be married at their local district office. They have wanted to say "I do" for a long time, but it wasn't possible until today because today marriage equality is officially legal in Thailand. The bill to legalize same sex marriage has flown through the country's House and Senate and been royally endorsed by the king. And today's wedding ceremonies were the conclusion of a year’s long fight. Mr. Krutthai, a transgender man and his girlfriend, have been together for a decade. When we spoke to Mr. Krutthai in June, he told us they were eager to tie the knot but couldn't because the state didn't recognize them as an opposite sex couple. Now their union is officially recognized by the law. We reached Jim Krutthai in Bangkok.

NK: Jim, congratulations. How does it feel to finally be a married man?

JIM KRUTTHAI: It's quiet. Sometimes excited I would say. But mostly I'm like, I'm happy. But I other side just like, it's more like responsibility on that.

NK: You're feeling the weight of it?

JK: Yeah.

NK: You and Rasi, you told me last time had been together eight years and she was still sleeping when the news of the of the law came down last time we talked. So you hadn't even talked. And here you are, married again. What was the ceremony like? What was that moment like?

JK: It's just like quite so simple. I went there. We were there till the officer to do the register. And then, like, you know, just through a normal procedure. Then we sign and [inaudible] from the office. We do take photo together, and it's just like, is the feeling of the celebration not only in Bangkok, but like all over Thailand.

NK: I have to ask about the outfits. What did the bride and groom wear?

JK: Well, I just wear a new suit. And my wife just wear like almost a normal dress that she and other that we went to work.

NK: You both went to work right after your wedding?

JK: Yes. [laughs]

NK: Just another day.

JK: It's kind of not like a wedding ceremony for today. It is like for the [inaudible], just to the registrar to legalize our relationship.

NK: Beyond that recognition, Jim. What right do you and other same sex couples have now that you didn't have yesterday?

JK: At least like today... Now, I went to the hospital with any like emergency issue my wife can do and, you know, put her name on that side something and make a decision on me. We can offer adopt the child together and then we can have kind of the property, we can manage that property together.

NK: There are others who are pushing for more. And I know you and I last time we spoke as well about things that you'd like to change, you know, the other things that are still on the list. For example, the word parent was not approved by lawmakers there.

JK: Yeah. Yeah. That's still...

NK: [cross talk] Parental rights. So, this is a day of celebration. Certainly a historic day for you and so many others and for your country. What would you like to see happen next? What more needs to be done in your view?

JK: Well equality, at least like for the word parents. I also would like to see more neutral with or some right that include everyone, inclusive everyone. And then if I talk about others, it's maybe like the gender [inaudible] or like decriminalization. Things that like we are like still fighting or working on that. And I would like to see it happen in my life.

NK: Well, this is history being made in your country. You likely know what is happening in the United States and the new president there pushing for the government to recognize, as Donald Trump says, "two sexes". That's a quote from him, male and female, and says, you know, and there are those in this country, politicians as well, who say similar things. Why do you think people and governments are still so far apart on this and are still, that there are still people who are upset?

JK: First, I would say like mostly about the gender or gender identity. I think the most [inaudible] group in this kind of situation is like transgender. And I, I know that the gender identity is a self-determination is yours to, to say like who you are or what is your identity. But this [inaudible] was different [inaudible] if I say I'm a man or I'm a woman or I'm transgender, you know, I still be you of people. And I can only do so many things, I can pay tax, I can work something like that right. So but it's kind of we grew up together and understand rights of each other and then rise and come together with responsibility. So when I heard about the news in the U.S., I feel like sad understand that [inaudible] friends in the U.S. feel like you know fear and unstable. But I think the world still have the chance to move up. It's quite hard. But I know that we're not quitting the fight or some something like that. And I know I don't know that the word fight it like good enough to say but you know I know someone still doing something in the U.S. I know. I heard and I see and they also allow the war is not only in the U.S. and Thailand, but, you know, in like all over the world.

NK: You said, Jim, that you and your wife went straight back to work after the ceremony. I'm wondering, is there going to be a bigger celebration, a bigger ceremony, maybe this weekend or later on?

JK: Later on maybe like we planned to go like somewhere maybe to the beach. Something like that is said like a small celebration on that.

NK: Well, I hope you get to do that. Jim, congratulations to you and Rasi. I appreciate your time.

JK: Thank you. You're welcome.

CH: Jim Krutthai legally married to his longtime partner, Rasi Jindasri today. We reached him in Bangkok, Thailand.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Nosferatu Costume Designer

Guest: Linda Muir

CH: She has clothed Puritan settlers, 19th century lighthouse keepers and Viking warlords. And today, Linda Muir became an Oscar nominee for her work as the costume designer for "Nosferatu".

SOUNDCLIP

HERR KNOCK: And I have been entertaining dealings with a foreign count, very old line of nobility, very old and eccentric. He wishes to acquire a home here in our Vicksburg to retire here. He has one foot in the grave, so to speak, his too infirm to travel. So you needs must journey to him.

THOMAS HUTTER: May not the count execute the deed here when he arrives.

HERR KNOCK: Oh no, it is much too urgent. He insists we offer him an agent. In the flesh.

CH: Ms. Muir also collaborated with "Nosferatu" director Robert Eggers on his three earlier films, "The Witch", "The Lighthouse" and "The Northman", all of which grounded their mythic stories and painstakingly recreated historically accurate details. We reached Linda Muir in Toronto.

NK: Linda, congratulations.

LINDA MUIR: Thank you.

NK: How did you find out? What was that moment like?

LM: Well, it was pretty thrilling. It was, you know, intense. It was emotional. I was listening to it on my laptop. So there was the first announcement, I think, for either supporting actor or lead actor. And then costume was the second, the second category up. So I didn't have to wait that long.

NK: What did you say when they said your name?

LM: Well, I didn't say anything because I was by myself. But you know, my partner Alan texted quite soon after that and said that makeup had been nominated. And I said, I am, too. [laughter] And then he phoned.

NK: And then he phoned. And what did he say?

LM: He's beyond thrilled. And, you know, I mean, this morning it was pretty overwhelming. You know, this is not something that I'm used to.

NK: As soon as you hang up with Alan, is it just. Congratulations. Flooding in. Who else have you been hearing from?

LM: It's been nonstop and really, really, you know, just so great to hear from people, texts, emails, phone calls, interview requests. You know, it's just really been fabulous chaos all day.

NK: Fabulous chaos. I like that phrase. I might have to keep that in my pocket for other times. You know, you talked about this being a first and a big honor. What is not a first is your relationship with Eggers, with this director. And also the amount of detail, the lengths that you and your team go to, to make everything as historically accurate as possible. That's important for this director, and it's certainly important for you. Why is that so key to your process and your execution and ultimately the product?

LM: Well, it is certainly in working with Robert, the four that we've worked together on they are all period films and they're, you know, involving storylines, costumes, settings that a contemporary audience isn't necessarily familiar with. And so the belief is, the notion is that, you know, to present as many authentic looking things as possible really grounds the film. And it really relieves the viewer of having to wonder, you know, and it becomes more, you know, an interaction with the period and the characters.

NK: This is a terrifying film. Were you ever terrified on set?

LM: No, I can't say that I was terrified because I know the story and I know how many iterations of "Nosferatu" and, you know, and Dracula have I read or watched? You know, So. No, but what I, what I was constantly marveling at was, you know, Bill Skarsgård performance as Orlok was terrifying in terms of, you know, how convincing he was and other, otherworldly he was. So it was pretty fabulous to be on set and watch, that's for sure.

NK: I bet. You mentioned you made a good point there, though, that there have been so many other iterations. So to challenge yourself and also to be in line with what Robert Eggers wants to do. What did you do to make sure that you differentiated yourself and this project from what was done in the past?

LM: Probably the largest departure would be absolutely Robert driven in that his Orlok is more of a representation of a folklore version of a vampire. And by that I mean that... So, for instance, in "Nosferatu" Murnau's "Nosferatu", you know, they were more white faced, blood drained creatures. Whereas Robert's version is truly undead, you know, they are reanimated, our Orlok is a reanimated corpse of a nobleman from, you know, anywhere between 1540 to about, you know, 1620. So the way he looks, the way he's dressed, the way he's costumed is completely different than any other version of "Nosferatu". And that is completely Robert's, you know, original notion and something that he has thought about for a very long time.

NK: Robert Eggers announced this week his next film is going to be a reimagining of the werewolf story. Since you've partnered up so many times, is it safe to say you're embedded in werewolf research right now?

LM: Well, I am. I am read, starting to read, you know, a lot of medieval literature and looking and trying to find, you know, medieval images. So, yes.

NK: So, you are working together again?

LM: Well, I don't know if I'm at liberty to say that yet, but.

NK: Well, we'll draw our own conclusions for now, and maybe we'll talk to you again about that. I was also reading that a lot of the cast, they loved a lot of these pieces. And, you know, one of the fashion magazines was saying, is "Nosferatu" core imminent? For you is it going to inform what you wear to the Oscars.

LM: Perhaps in color? You know, I mean, I might, I might include lilac. You know, somewhere along the way I just received an amazing bouquet of flowers that was completely lilac. You know, the one thing that I realized time and time again is that garments that are beautiful design are really are timeless, you know, And it doesn't seem to matter whether it's a linen night shirt from 1630 or if it's a nightgown from 1838. If there's something that is appealing, then it is appealing to a contemporary person as well.

NK: You're absolutely right about that. Do you, you make clothes for these projects? Will you make your own ensemble for the Oscars?

LM: Not on your life. [laughter] It's kind of a workman's holiday, right? Or what do they say? The cobbler, cobbler's children who has, you know, horrible shoes. No, I will not make my own outfit.

NK: Well, we can't wait to see what you wear. Linda, congratulations again. A real pleasure speaking with you.

LM: Thank you.

CH: Linda Muir is the newly Oscar nominated costume designer of "Nosferatu". We reached her in Toronto.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

Old Urine

CH: And now another edition in our ongoing series.

["Today in urine" News theme]

CH: Yes, it's another, As It Happens, story involving urine. And you're probably asking, is this really important because you did the story about contagious urination among chimpanzees yesterday, and that was important. But I'm concerned that today's story is gratuitous and you'll just make a bunch of juvenile jokes about peeing. Okay. Listen, first of all, that was a long question. Honestly, I could barely follow what you were saying. No offense, but if I understood you, you're wondering if this is a legitimate story. Well, I don't know. Is an ancient, mysterious bottle of urine a legitimate story? I can't hear you. But I assume you said. Absolutely. Last year, workers in Cleethorpes, England, discovered a mysterious bottle containing a tantalizing liquid. They immediately assumed it was a rare, well-aged rum and were going to guzzle it before their project manager suggested they not. Now, this is the kind of wisdom one yearns for from one's project manager. For you will never guess what that liquid was.

SOUNDCLIP

ZAHRA YEATES: We reckon this is probably about 200 years old. The fact it's still got the liquid in it after 200 years, especially after having been buried as well. After some extensive testing, we have discovered that is in fact. [suspenseful music] Urine. Not alcohol. So it's a good thing that the manager stepped in and stopped them all.

CH: University of Lincoln student Zahra Yeates talking to the BBC and hey, BBC dramatic about urine much, sheesh. Now, what does this find telling us? According to one theory, this was a witch's bottle, a magic item containing bodily fluids that protected against witches and also probably protected against having friends. Another theory is that it was a good luck charm buried by a sailor. Still, others believe a guy just peed in a bottle for no reason and threw the bottle in a ditch for no reason. We may never know. So let's just let the mystery wash over us. Not literally.

[Music: Upbeat instrumental]

Part 2: SCC: Bill 21, N.Y. Moose Rescue, FTR: New Irish MP, Alternate Butcher

SCC: Bill 21

Guest: Bouchera Chelbi

CH: Quebec's Bill 21, is heading to the Supreme Court this morning. The court agreed to hear a challenge to the law, which prohibits some public workers from wearing religious symbols on the job. Provincial legislators have invoked the Constitution's notwithstanding clause to insulate the bill from past court cases. Bouchera Chelbi is a teacher who wears a hijab and a plaintiff in one of the legal challenges to Bill 21. We reached her in Montreal.

NK: Bouchera, I wonder how this news hit you. Where did you find out? Where were you?

BOUCHERA CHELBI: Well, I was at school this morning when my lawyer texted me to tell me that the Supreme Court accepted to hear the arguments against Bill 21.

NK: Could you show your feelings in that moment if you were at school?

BC: Not really. There I was with my students, obviously, and I did not talk to my siblings about this matter. But yeah, I was really happy. So, yeah, I smiled a little bit, but I did not show any more of my happiness.

NK: This listeners may remember you've been on the program before, but to remind those who may not, you wear a hijab, your teacher, as you said, but you're part of the group that was grandfathered because you had your job before this law went into effect. But you talked back in 2019 about how this was already affecting other teachers who also wear a hijab. How are they doing now? I mean, what have you seen over these years about how it's impacting people personally?

BC: Well, people like me who are grandfather, it is pretty much the same thing, you know, because most of us wanted to have, well, obviously, when you work, you want to have a promotion. So it is also the case for us. So it hinders us from having a promotion. We cannot be a principal. I have a lot of friends who wanted to be principals and they even started taking classes at uni, but they stopped because they would no longer be accepted. They would no longer have a promotion. Some of my colleagues wanted to move to another city, but they can, they cannot do it because they will no longer be grandfathered. But I also have other teachers who didn't have tenure back in that time, and they simply, even though they're excellent teachers, they're really qualified, they're really good teachers, but they have to switch to get another job. They're not happy about it because their dream was to be a teacher. But you know what? They have to pay their bills, so they had to find another job.

NK: Premier Legault, as you likely saw, posted on social media, a statement saying in part, quote, "Quebec has chosen secularism in the public sector", unquote. And he goes on to say, quote, "We will fight to the end to defend our values and what we are", unquote. What do you say to what he's saying there? That this is Quebec's choice and anything else is outside interference?

BC: Well, it's funny. I said the same thing in one of our meetings. I said that we'll keep on fighting till the end. I didn't think it though, I didn't think that far, though, but... He based he, Premier Legault said that this law is based to ensure that there is an equality between men and women, right. That's his first argument. And me as a woman wearing the hijab, I decided to put on the hijab. There's a man who asks me or who imposes who decides to impose on me that I should remove my hijab. But I decided to put on my hijab. So I just, it's like a man asking me, imposing his views on me. How is it, how does it ensure equality between men and women? I've always thought that as a woman, I can choose to wear whatever I want to. And no man should be, should have the right to tell me what to wear. And yet this bill is based on gender equality and there's a man telling another woman, well, if you want to be a teacher, if you want to have a promotion through, if you want to do this, if you want to do that, you should dress this way. So it's a little bit paradoxical to me.

NK: The federal government, as you know, has said that this is the stage it would intervene and it will make arguments against this bill in front of the Supreme Court. But as you well know, there's a Liberal leadership race coming and a federal election on top of that looming. How does all of that sit with you?

BC: Well, I was... I've always heard that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau saying that he would support us. But if it, if we go to the Supreme Court. But yeah, with the upcoming elections, we are not sure. We don't know about the other candidates. I don't know if they are going to if they're going to be willing to support the bill or be against it. As it comes to the Conservatives I know that Mr. Poilievre also said that he's against the bill, but if he, if they ever win the elections, we don't know if they're going to be faithful and say, yeah, we're going to do something about it at the Supreme Court or not. We still don't know because Conservatives want to have some wins in Quebec. So we don't know their political, political of who's going to overcome justice or not.

NK: You said you're hopeful. You've said that you're going to fight to the end just a moment ago. And you've said it before. But I wonder, what does this give or take from you, this fight over all of these years and the years that may still come before there's a decision? How do you feel as a Muslim woman, a teacher, a Quebecer?

BC: Well, I think it is important. You know, maybe by the time there is a positive outcome, I might, I might retire. You know, I don't know if I'd still be working or not. We don't know when it's going to end. But the fact is that I'm not doing it only for myself. I'm doing it for the future generations. And it's not about when I say that, I'm not talking about Muslim girls only. I'm talking about Jewish people. I'm talking about Sikh people. But for now, with that bill, we do not have equal rights, unfortunately.

NK: Bouchera, thank you so much for your time.

BC: Thanks for having me.

CH: Bouchera Chelbi is a plaintiff in one of the legal challenges to Quebec's Bill 21. We reached her in Montreal.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

N.Y. Moose Rescue

Guests: Robert Higgins and Matt Savarie

CH: You're taking a contemplative walk across a frozen lake, reflecting on how peaceful everything is when suddenly you're up to your neck in icy water. Not only are you floundering, you also realize that you're stuck and in a panic. You yell for help, explaining in detail at the top of your lungs the exact situation you're in. [Moose call]. Last week, a moose that weighed 450 kilos -- that is a thousand pounds found itself in that frightening, frigid plight after falling through the ice of remote Lake Abanakee in New York. But luckily, the moose got some help before it ran out of juice. Lieutenant Robert Higgins and Ranger Matt Savarie with the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation. They are two members of the team who rescued the moose. We reached them in Lake George and North Creek, New York, respectively.

NK: Lieutenant Higgins, let me start with you. You were first on the scene. What did you see when you got there?

ROBERT HIGGINS: Well, when we got there, there was a few people around and looking to us when we showed up. And when we saw the head down in the water, they're like, yep, this is true, this is a moose through the ice.

NK: And so it was just some folks by the water who saw this and called it in?

RH: Yeah. There was a guy who actually was there and saw the moose walk out onto the ice of Lake Abanakee and saw it fall through. So that was key that he was there because Hamilton County, where it happened, is the most desolate county in the state with only about five thousand people and the counties about the size of the state of Delaware. So for him to be there at that time is pretty amazing. And we also met with some of our operations staff from one of our office that was close by. They were there to tell us what happened.

NK: And Rangers Savarie let me let me bring you in now. Were you there at the same time as Lieutenant Higgins or were you called in?

MATT SAVARIE: Yeah, I wasn't. I got the call later on. I was only maybe a half hour away at that point, so I showed up a little later. We had another, two other rangers on scene before I got there.

NK: So, Lieutenant, you've got the two other Rangers there. Range Savarie is called in. How quickly do you all hatch a plan?

RH: Yeah. When I got there, probably only five minutes later, Ranger Nahor showed up and we came up with a quick game plan that, like, okay, we have a couple options here. You know, we can try to cut a channel with the Ranger Nahor's chainsaw and try to get this thing out. Or we can wait for an airboat, But the airboats going to be a long time. So, given the nature of the scene, we're like, well, we're going to do whatever we can right now. So that's when Ranger Nahor grabbed his chainsaw start cutting the channel. And I started pushing ice blocks out of the way.

NK: And Rangers Savarie. When you arrived, what was your role in the operation?

MS: We grabbed another chainsaw and we just kept cutting that channel out further and further. The ice was fairly thick near shore, but as we got out towards the moose, it was only about an inch thick at most. So it got a little slower at that point and we didn't want to fall and then be swimming with the moose...

NK: No, that's dangerous for you guys. Yeah.

MS: Yeah. It's not too much of a concern falling in the water normally, cause we have our cold water rescue suits and means to get out. But it's a little different when it's a seven or eight hundred pound animal swimming with you.

NK: Just a bit different. And I've seen some of the video that was captured. So just to, so our listeners can visualize it. You cut this channel so that the moose has a pathway out. But then in the video, there's two men and perhaps it's the both of you sort of on the ice urging the moose to go and take that path, right?

MS: Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. Myself and Ranger Nahor, when we finished cutting the channel out there, we were able to get behind the hole that the moose had fallen through. And you'll see in the video, we had some jet slides, some ice fishing sleds that we were able to kneel behind to distribute our weight. So we didn't fall through the ice with the moose. And yeah, we essentially just got behind the moose and did a little moose drive. And just pushed it back through the channel and it swam pretty quickly back to shore. Really, we're surprised it happened that easily.

NK: It understood what you were, were doing and maybe appreciated the help.

MS: Yeah, I think so. Once it got back onto the ice shelf, it gave us a look like it wasn't so appreciative, but yeah. Then it got back onto the ice shelf and it took probably 10 minutes for it to get back on its feet. We had to give it a little shove finally.

NK: So 10 minutes just for it to get on its feet and walk off. But the whole process from, you know, you get the call, Lieutenant Higgins, to what Ranger Savarie just described. How long are we talking here?

RH: It was about two hours in total time that the moose was in the water. And yeah, at one point near the end there, it looked like it kind of got stuck and was having trouble getting out. So you and I went out to like, get help again and that's when it eventually climbed out on its own. And I just couldn't believe it had the strength at that point. It was shivering really hard, so I just wasn't sure if it was going to be able to stand up or not.

NK: And it did. And as far as you know, it's doing okay.

RH: Yeah. Yeah. As far as we know. I mean, it took a while like Ranger Savarie said, but it did, you know, stumble around and then kind of stand and keep looking back at us, probably wondering what the heck just happened.

NK: How much longer do you think I mean, this is a large animal, certainly, but how much longer do you think it could have lasted in water, that cold? Or if, like you said, that that that person wasn't there to put in the call?

RH: Yeah, I don't think it lasted too much longer. I think if we waited for the airboat, it would have been too long. So I think it was kind of near the end of saving it for a successful save. But then when we saw the last, you know, move into the woods, that had a nice little kick to its step. So I think it recovered.

NK: Well, that's good. Have either of you and you can both chime in whenever you like. Have either of you been a part of a rescue like this before?

MS: [cross talk] You know, usually we don't have somebody that watches one go through like that, so usually it's. It's too late by the time anybody knows about it. Lots of people get rescued, of course. And. But I've never heard of a moose around here.

NK: Just a reminder for people to not risk it out there for sure. And Lieutenant Higgins, what about you?

RH: I've been, you know, working here for 21 years now, and not sure I've ever heard of anybody doing that. I mean, deer routinely do fall through the ice from time to time. So we do get calls on that. But I don't know if it's anybody's ever rescued a moose before.

NK: Well, it's quite a story to tell over and over again. Are you tired of telling it yet?

RH: No. I guess it's a little different every time, so. No, it's the more we can tell it the better.

NK: Well, Lieutenant Higgins, Ranger Savarie I appreciate your time. Thank you.

BOTH: Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you.

CH: Lieutenant Robert Higgins and Ranger Matt Savarie are with the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation. We reached them in Lake George and North Creek, New York.

[Music: Calm instrumental]

For The Record: New Irish MP

CH: The Irish Parliament is really going through it. Today Fianna Fail leader Micheál Martin returned as Ireland's Taoiseach or Prime Minister after securing the support of lawmakers. But that support did not come easy. The issue stems from a group of independent MPs who are propping up the minority government's coalition with Fine Gael. They've formed something called a technical group, which would technically give them speaking rights from the Opposition benches and eat into the speaking time of parties like Sinn Féin and Sinn Féin lawmaker Pádraig Mac Lochlainn took issue with that.

SOUNDCLIP

PÁDRAIG MAC LOCHLAINN: I am entitled to oppose an amendment to this order of business. I am proposing that we suspend the Dáil and convene an urgent meeting of the business Committee to deal with the outrageous proposition that we don't return next week. And this Dáil with the outrageous proposition, the 39 days and Sinn Féin will be allocated 10 minutes, the same as your government's group in opposition. And Michael Lowry, as a member of the opposition, Michael Lowry stood outside this building and said, we will support the government and the good days, the bad of all seven of them. He's a member of the opposition, for God's sake. You're making a mockery of democracy here [inaudible] right now. You know, you designed this situation today, you have it in your power to resolve this issue. They should have speaking rights from the government side. That's where they belong. And so I am proposing we suspend the Dáil. Now, that's my proposal.

[Speaker Verona Murphy of the house tried to bring the court to order, lots of shouting]

CH: The sound of the new Irish speaker, Verona Murphy, losing control of the Dáil yesterday. She would go on to suspend parliament four times, finally giving up for the day. With Dáil reconvened today and Speaker Murphy ruled that for this sitting she would not give the group of government affiliated independents speaking time. With that out of the way, Micheál Martin was officially elected.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHEÁL MARTIN: It is a sad development in my view, in many parliaments in the world that they have become more angry and divisive. They have become forums dominated by the inflated rhetoric of demonstrations rather than a place where different groups can argue in good faith and respectfully disagree. On the day where we carry out our most important constitutional duty as representatives of the people. We should take a moment to remember and respect those things which we share. It is a profound honor to be nominated to serve as head of the government in a free, democratic and diverse republic.

CH: And Ireland's new Taoiseach, Micheál Martin speaking in parliament today.

[Music: Banjo instrumental]

Alternate Butcher

CH: Ben Carson knows a thing or two about meat. The B.C. butcher co-owns his own shop, "Legendary Meats" in the Kootenays. Plus, he's part of Canada's butcher team. And trust me, they've got the chops. If you're listening, butcher team, you can use that. In March as you know, the team is headed to the World Butchers Challenge in Paris, also known as the Olympics of Meat. Ben Carson is an alternate on the team and plans to get to Paris even if he has to do some fundraising.

SOUNDCLIP

BEN CARSON: There are 50 nations getting together and competing where we get half a cow, a half a pig, a whole lamb and five chickens and 3.5 hours to turn it into as many different products as we can and deal with it all and clean up and make the sausages and everything.

CHRIS WALKER: Okay. It's known as the Olympics of Meat. Who competes in this?

BEN CARSON: Well, this year coming we've got Iceland, we've got Wales, we've got Belgium, we've got Brazil, Germany, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, Romania, Spain, USA and Australia.

CHRIS WALKER: Wow. And you want to go? What are the criteria that you get judged on when you're there?

BEN CARSON: Everything. We get judged on how we work as a team, how well we are dressed together. We get judged on the creativity, the cook ability, pretty much any criteria you can put it through as far as teamwork. As far as plating, as far as everything goes, we get judged on everything.

CHRIS WALKER: How many people on Team Canada?

BEN CARSON: There are eight members on Team Canada, and we have three young butchers going in, competing as individuals who I think are far braver than us eight.

CHRIS WALKER: I am curious about why, why are you a butcher? How did you get into this?

BEN CARSON: [laughter] You know, I wish I had a story of like, you know, my dad was a butcher and his dad was a butcher and it's in our blood. But I don't. I have a story of I was working in grocery stores and I had moved cities and I was just working. And the meat manager came over to me and it was 19 at the time and he was like, I like the way you work. You want to come work in the meat department. I think at the time of making 6 dollars 85 cents an hour and he said, you know, if you learn, you can get up to 17 dollars an hour. And it's like, well, that sounds like a really good idea. And then I trained that and fell in love with the trade. And 22, 22 years later, here I am on the radio with you this morning.

CHRIS WALKER: Wow. Okay, so you're hosting a smoke off tonight in Nelson in order to get yourself to Paris tell us about the event tonight.

BEN CARSON: So tonight, we've got a fun event happening in Nelson where we've got two kitchens, one menu. I'm bringing smoked ribs that we've made for ourselves. And yeah, it's going to be a really good time.

CH: Ben Carson is the co-owner of "Legendary Meats" in Slocan, B.C. He's also an alternate on Canada's butcher team. He was talking to Chris Walker, host of Daybreak South in Kelowna.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 3: Iraq Child Marriage, Truro Development, Mistaken RedNote CEO, FOA: N.Z./Australia Cargo Cat, Manta Ray Tails

Iraq Child Marriage

Guest: Shirouk El-Abayachi

CH: A vote in Iraq's legislature on Tuesday has critics warning that girls as young as nine could soon be legally married. Members of the country's Council of Representatives voted to amend what are referred to as civil status laws. The laws govern family matters and the changes give religious bodies authority over things like inheritance, divorce and marriage. Critics warn that some of those authorities interpret Islamic law as allowing for the marriage of girls in their early teens and that at least one would allow for the marriage of nine year old’s. Shirouk El-Abayachi is a former member of the Iraq Council of Representatives. We reached her in Baghdad.

NK: Shirouk, when you heard what had happened, what did you say to yourself and the people around you?

SHIROUK EL-ABAYACHI: Actually, [inaudible] the anger is the dominant feeling for me and for my colleagues and friends and all the people we have been acting and working against this to this end of the law, civil status law. But I'm not desperate but I mean, it's still an ongoing puzzle for me and for my colleagues.

NK: The Associated Press is reporting that the main support for these changes came from conservative Shia lawmakers. They say these changes align Iraqi law with Islamic principles and reduce Western influence on Iraqi culture. That's their interpretation of Islamic principles. Let's make that clear. But you are against this. Many other people are as well. But is there support broadly in Iraq for what they've done here?

SEA: No, actually, this is just an argument to cover their mistakes or their way how to deal with the laws, the Islamic principles that are kept by people for worse than people in this country this decades. I mean, nobody claims the 20 years ago that we are not Muslims or the majority are not Muslims, but what they are doing on behalf of Islam, it's far away from Islamic principles. And as an example for that. The single status law, the valid one since 1959, it's all based on Islamic principles. But that was chosen. That is that the principles that protect women's rights, protect child, children rights or child protection and the diversity of the society in a way that keeps also the law, the rule of law arranging all these things, what they aim by the amendments of the changes. They want to help all these things outside the court, outside the legal system so that the religious men, what's called the religious men, actually, because it's open, it's not identified clearly to decide whatever they want. So this is not an Islamic principle.

NK: The United Nations recently had a survey just within the last couple of years, and I believe it said 28 per cent of girls are married there before they turn 18. This is clearly already happening. But these changes, what will happen next because of this? Who is most at risk?

SEA: Yeah, we know. We know that is a kind of a marriage is that it is under the legal, legal age. It is within the last 20 years has been increased. But we, if we want to deal with this, it's a problem, of course, because it's against the law. Instead of dealing this, instead of correcting the bad situation for girls and for families. They want to make this situation legal, which is absurd. Which is not the correct. Because women, men and women under 18, which is the legal age her in Iraq, under 18, they get married, have children and get divorced before 18. And that's too bad.

NK: That affects their future and how they're seen in society. I was also reading that it can also be. Used in some cases as a bargaining chip, as in if you push for financial support or alimony, then I will take our daughter away and marry her off. Are you seeing and hearing those kinds of stories?

SEA: This is the main point of the amendments. Actually, it's not amendment and adopting the Shia [inaudible] law. I mean, this is the Shia in government. That let the women or the divorced women without alimony, without even the right of the custody of her children after two years or three years. And the most strange thing's that the law they voted for two days ago, the details of the law is unlawful. Now they are waiting for it in a few months, six months from the Shia government. And they voted. And it's valid for their end. For what they voted two days ago. Even with, no one knows what it will come, what kind of regulations will be in this [inaudible]?

NK: Just before we let you go. You know, when this happened, did you get any phone calls or have any conversations from someone who is worried about their daughter?

SEA: Yes, all the time. All the time. The mothers are really, divorced mothers, even not divorced people are concerned about the future of their children. I mean, because any time the husbands decide to divorce the woman, he has the right to take children to have... I mean, up to now, the [inaudible] law is protecting these rights. But now they don't know what's this thing they have to face after what happened in the parliament two days ago.

NK: Shirouk, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SEA: Thank you too.

CH: Shirouk El-Abayachi, she is a former member of the Iraq Council of Representatives. We reached her in Baghdad.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Truro Development

Guest: TJ Jordan

CH: A historic African, Nova Scotian community, known as "The Island", is at the heart of a battle over development in the town of Truro. Residents there have been rallying against a proposed five storey development they say threatens the culture and heritage of the historically Black neighborhood. Now, council is looking at rezoning the neighborhood in order to better control future development there and protect the integrity and history of the community. TJ Jordan's family has lived on the island for five generations. He told the CBC why he wants stronger protections for the neighborhood.

SOUNDCLIP

TJ JORDAN: I think the biggest concern really is just making sure that we are thought about when these developments are coming into town in the areas that directly affect our community. We are one of three historical Indigenous Black communities here in town. So that would be Western street, the Hill and the Marsh. And to this point, we've seen the Marsh and the Hill kind of diminished and not necessarily diminished. They're very well developed. But, you know, our people have since had to move and find other places to go based on those developments. So with that being said, the concern was that we would over time find less friends in a very similar predicament where people wouldn't have the opportunity to move back home or develop the land that they do have for further generations. So we decided as a community we should probably come together and make sure that our voices heard. I just think of like a different development, such as like the middle school that went up on the top of the Hill. It's directly on the top of the Hill where a really big portion of the community at one point would have lived. So, you know, obviously due to different business transactions and zoning laws and different things, people are obviously able to come and purchase land and do the things that they need to do, of course. But when you know the individuals or the residents that are in those areas, aren't necessarily thought about when it comes to the like the future effects of these different developments. And these are the things that take place. It's something that happens in other areas outside of just Truro, right? It's happening all over the place, all over the province. These small pockets of Black communities that get washed over, you know, based on people just not necessarily thinking about them when the plans are put forth.

ERIN MACINNIS: I'm wondering sort of what's the vision for how you would like to see the neighbourhood grow and change over time?

TJ JORDAN: We're definitely pro-development in every, every way possible. You know, I think I'm 33 years old, born and raised here in town. And, you know, Truro is developing beautifully. I think for us, it's just making sure that if things are going to be developed in this particular area of town and affect the community that the community itself is thought about as far as, you know, just moving into the future. And for us, you know, we're open. We're definitely open. I don't know if there's a true idea of what it is that people want, but something that could benefit or help to commemorate the history that is here in town, just to help us keep our artifacts and just our history and our heritage alive.

CH: That was Truro, Nova Scotia, resident TJ Jordan talking to the CBC's Erin MacInnis on Information Morning in Halifax.

[Music: Lofi instrumental]

Mistaken RedNote CEO

CH: Jerry Liu was bored that day, so when he noticed that the short lived U.S. Tik Tok ban had brought an influx of English speaking users to the predominantly Chinese social media app RedNote, he thought it would be nice to make a welcoming video, but people took it more seriously than he'd intended to the point where they have mistaken him for the CEO of RedNote. Mr. Liu and his girlfriend Dani Hao told the CBC about the initial fun he had with that video and how they're dealing with his sudden fame.

SOUNDCLIP

JERRY LIU: People say, I look CEO [inaudible] because I have this hat, the funny thing is this is not even mine. It's Dani's.

STEPHEN QUINN: You borrowed Dani's hat.

JERRY LIU: Yes. None of us was expecting this to go viral.

STEPHEN QUINN: My gosh. And how viral has it gone?

JERRY LIU: I don't know. Everybody knows.

DANI HAO: It's really funny. Like, we only had RedNote at first, but we were like, we need to clear this misunderstanding. Let's also make a TikTok. And apparently people started following us. So now we have, I think, a combined audience of over 120K followers.

STEPHEN QUINN: Oh my gosh. This is like waking up in the morning and just finding out that you're famous.

DANI HAO: Yes, that's literally what happened. So basically, he posted the video and then the morning after I woke up, I got a text message from one of my U.S. based friends and he was like, Doesn't this guy look like your boyfriend? And I was like, No way. That is him. So I immediately woke him up. I'm like, Look what just happened here. Your viral.

JERRY LIU: She burst into laughter. I was still asleep, and she was like, You're on Fox News.

STEPHEN QUINN: That is so funny. Tell me about some of the some of the sort of cultural phenomenon that you have seen on RedNote since this all happened.

DANI HAO: So a lot of Chinese children growing up in English class. They write to their English speaking pen pal by the pseudonym Li Hua. You know, a lot of times they grew up and they never got a reply from their English speaking pen pal. But because of this phenomenon, they're starting to finally get a reply with a lot of, like, English speakers even saying, I'm sorry, Li Hua, why it took me so long to give you this reply.

JERRY LIU: What's cute about this is I used to be one of these kids as well. I wrote so many dumb letters like that. But I'm just glad that I, find my pen pal way other than this.

STEPHEN QUINN: Wow. Now, you mentioned Fox News. How far has this thing gone?

DANI HAO: Well, we don't know what other platforms have covered it so far, but that morning I whipped out my camera and he didn't actually know I was recording him at first. And then that actually became my other viral video, his Fox News reaction.

STEPHEN QUINN: My gosh. What do you do with this now?

JERRY LIU: I think we're focused a lot on the day to day stuff because even before this, Dani had a whole album of my down reactions. The only difference now is that we want to share this with our audience and followers.

CH: That was Jerry Liu and Dani Hao speaking to Stephen Quinn, host of The Early Edition today.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

FOA: N.Z./Australia Cargo Cat

CH: Mittens has been through a lot. Moving from New Zealand to Australia with her owners was never going to be easy for the eight year old Maine Coon cat. But it was at least going to be a one way trip and then it would be over. Unfortunately, Mittens ended up making the nearly eight hour journey not once, not twice, but three times after her carrier was mistakenly overlooked in the cargo hold of her initial Air New Zealand flight. When she finally turned up at baggage claim after traveling from Christchurch to Melbourne to Christchurch to Melbourne, she'd repeatedly, reportedly lost some weight but was otherwise okay. Here's Mittens owner Margo Neas on their eventual reunion.

SOUNDCLIP

MARGO NEAS: She just basically just ran into my arms and just snuggled up in here and just did the biggest cuddles of all time, you know, And just it was just it was just such a relief.

CH: Air New Zealand says it has reimbursed the full cost of Mittens' travel and will, quote, "work closely with our ground handler in Melbourne to ensure this doesn't happen again", unquote. And that's reassuring, of course. But we can't help but recall the many instances of wayward cats we've covered in the past. In some cases, those stories are really about the friendships forged along the way. Take a 1981 incident in which the aptly named Lucky traveled from Morecombe, England, to Lockhart, Texas, in a shipping container and lived to tell the tale. Well, her owner, Linda Sinclair, and the man who found her, Gary Fingleman, told the tale.

SOUNDCLIP

LINDA SINCLAIR: Where I used to live behind the house there was a warehouse. And my cat used to play in the yard where the warehouse was, and she used to play amongst the containers and lay on them. And it was apparently one of these containers that she'd sneaked in one day and got locked in.

JOHN FRASER: Well, now, Mr. Fingleman, can you tell us how you came to find who you call [inaudible] in the first place?

GARY FINGLEMAN: Well, the container was delivered to my building in Lockhart, Texas. And as myself and my sellers were unload the container as we got in about two thirds of the way Lucky come wandering out of the furniture and we picked it up and seen that it was well, undernourished and dehydrated quite a bit. So we took it immediately to the veterinarian.

JOHN FRASER: How is lucky now, Mr. Fingleman?

GARY FINGLEMAN: Perfect health.

JOHN FRASER: No. No. Worse for wear now, as far as you can see.

GARY FINGLEMAN: Oh no. Playful and cheerful. And he's okay.

JOHN FRASER: How did you manage to get in touch with Mrs. Sinclair?

GARY FINGLEMAN: Well, I just told the fellas that that sent the container to me that it had came in the container and he had no knowledge of it being in the container. And the way Mrs. Sinclair supposedly found out about it was that the fella, Mr. McNamara that set me the container told a friend of his and this friend know Mrs. Sinclair and told her about it.

JOHN FRASER: Now, Mrs. Sinclair, what did you think when you first heard your cat, who you presume was lost and maybe even dead, might be alive?

LINDA SINCLAIR: I was over the moon. I just burst out crying. I was so happy that she was alive.

JOHN FRASER: Mr. Fingleman, what do you feel about. About losing [inaudible]? As you as you called the cat?

GARY FINGLEMAN: Well, [inaudible] that are part of us that we've taken it in or found it. And it's going to be hard to give it up. But I know that Mrs. Sinclair loves it as much as we do and will take care of it as well as we have. And also, I go to England, you know, 4 or 5 times a year. And so I do plan maybe to visit Lucky or [inaudible] while I'm over.

LINDA SINCLAIR: I want to say to Mr. Fingleman that I just can't find words to thank him enough and he is most welcome, next time he comes to England, as he says must come and see me and see Lucky. It really, it really will be lovely.

CH: From our archives, there was Linda Sinclair and Gary Fingleman speaking with, As It Happens, guest host John Fraser in September 1981.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Manta Ray Tails

Guest: Júlia Chaumel

CH: It's pretty obvious from the name Stingray that stingrays sting. And they do that through their long tails, which contain venom. But it turns out some stingray relatives don't sting at all. Take Manta rays, for instance. They have that long, menacing looking tail, but they can't sting at all, which has puzzled scientists. Now, researchers at Harvard are one step closer to solving the mystery. Júlia Chaumel is a marine biologist at Harvard. We reached her in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

NK: Júlia, it's quite extraordinary to look at Manta rays. Their tails are so long, sometimes even longer than their body size. But before this research, what was the prevailing thinking? What did you and others think those tails were for?

JÚLIA CHAUMEL: Well, actually, it was not an almost anything known about them. They it was thought that they were used for defense like weapons. But I think not a lot of studies approach this question. So, actually we were wondering what [inaudible] really be. We were observing the rays [inaudible] that maybe other functions can be evolved like sensory or [inaudible], we don't know. So just like it was nothing known about them.

NK: Yeah. It's so interesting that that no one, that there was next to nothing known about them, as you say. Why do you think that is? Why do you think people didn't explore that sooner?

JC: Well, this is a really nice question. And I don't know because they are not small. As I say, they are pretty large. So it was like quite intriguing for us that nobody thought about that before. So again, they, it's thought that they were used for defense because they have the sting there. But actually, the sting is just like 1 per cent of the tail. I mean, so yeah, it's a really good question I don't know.

NK: And fascinating thing to, for you to dive into, so to speak, and study. So you specifically studied Cownose rays for this paper. I'm learning and others may not know they're a close relative of Manta rays. And then you dissected their tails. So I'm just imagining as you perform that dissection, what you're seeing as you take a closer look.

JC: So that's also a really interesting question. And I believe that they have a really complex anatomy. But then we start seeing like two holes that we didn't know what was it until we explored it further. So but it was like a big unknown for us at the beginning, but we didn't know what to expect.

NK: And so what did you see when you did cut in?

JC: So we saw, again, two holes, one of each side of the tail. So these holes normally are related with the lateral line system. So we see a system that is well known in marine life or aquatic life. A lot of like animals have it. And it [inaudible] water movement. So we saw the two holes. But the interesting thing is, we started seeing other holes that, and this was a little bit strange. And then we started, like, wondering what they could be. Maybe there are multiple lateral lines. Maybe that is just one but is highly [inaudible]. And then we have to [inaudible] we or visualize the tissue in 3-D, which is actually what makes our study really nice. And we saw the whole system in 3-D, and we could realize that actually is highly branched. So it's a really complex lateral line system more than most of the fishes.

NK: And these are sensory organs, then?

JC: Yes, they are make out of sensory organs, which means that they that they detect water movement. So whatever it is, moving near them.

NK: And when you saw that is shock the right word?

JC: What was a shock for us is the complexity of the system because it's not seen in other elastomer [inaudible] or in other fishes. So actually, we think that these branching structure is to filter water movement. So they want [inaudible] water movement but not to affect others. So it's just like, okay I want to take only those movements, but I don't want to eat, for example, a movement of a small fishes. This is our hypothesis, but it's not [inaudible].

NK: Yeah it's, that complexity is fascinating to hear you talk about. How could it help a Cownose ray or a Manta ray?

JC: So this is what we are seeing. So we think that these complexity of the lateral line system serves to detect predators coming from behind, which actually they move a large quantity of water, for example, a shark. So imagine that they are a ray and you have like a two meters tail behind you. Then a shark is approaching so you have more time to react and escape. Right? And before that, you are beaten by the by predator. So this is our hypothesis.

NK: It's a pretty powerful tool.

JC: Yes. It's a really powerful tool that gives you enough time to escape and then and not to be caught by the predator.

NK: And stability is something you are, also looked at, as I understand it, that this complex tail structure could also help these creatures with stability.

JC: So this is the next study that we are actually preparing. We have all the data ready. And what we saw is actually the tail helps to stabilize the ray during swimming. So, actually it's multi-functional. It has several purposes.

NK: I think in your paper, it's called a hydrodynamic antenna. Yeah.

JC: Yes. That's what we call it, yeah.

NK: It's a good. It's good. It's evocative. Certainly. You clearly love rays and you were fascinated by them and you wanted to find out more. Do you love them even more now? I wonder, knowing about this complexity and this power.

JC: Yes. I mean, they are fascinating. They aren't really fully understood. I mean, especially in terms of sensory systems.

NK: Júlia, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

JC: Ah, you're welcome. Thank you so much.

CH: Júlia Chaumel is a marine biologist at Harvard University. We reached her in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

[Music: Theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[Music: Theme]

The AIH Transcript For January 23, 2025

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