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The AIH Transcript for January 21, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Hoping against hope. A Palestinian man in Gaza tells us the joy of the cease fire can't erase the destruction of the past 15 months. But he marvels at the signs of a pre-war life starting to emerge in Gaza City.

CH: Com-muted response. Before leaving the White House, Joe Biden commuted Leonard Peltier, his life sentence, which is a relief to our guest, who has long called for clemency for the Indigenous activist despite having once helped prosecute him.

NK: Top of the jingle-jangle morning to you. A New Yorker tells us about discovering a typewritten hand noted draft of the lyrics to "Mr. Tambourine Man", which wasn't entirely surprising since Bob Dylan wrote it at his father's kitchen table.

CH: That sinking feeling. A photographer and model dive past the decompression zone to get some underwater pictures on the deck of a sunken ship. And the results are breathtaking and record breaking.

NK: Gag me with a pontoon. Luckily, that suit did not take place in New Brunswick, where scientists are sounding the alarm about the potential spread of an unfolding genic marine invertebrate known as "sea vomit".

CH: And atomic wedgie. In his inaugural address, Donald Trump gives the U.S. credit for splitting the atom. Which unleashes a powerful explosion in New Zealand, birthplace of the scientist who really managed to do it. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that goes on a fission expedition.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Gaza Update, Underwater Photography, Dylan Lyrics, Splitting Atom

Gaza Update

Guest: Mohammed Wadi

CH: Last week, Palestinians took to the streets of Gaza City to celebrate the ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas. But now that joy has fizzled, as thousands of people return to their homes only to find rubble. And everyone is still wondering what the next phases of the ceasefire will entail. Details are still being negotiated, but the hope for many is that Phase two will bring a permanent ceasefire and Phase three will allow Gaza to rebuild. Those negotiations are expected to be more challenging and take more time. But this week, there is life trickling back into Gaza. Mohammed Wadi is a Deputy Medical Coordinator with MSF in Gaza. He's been in Gaza City with his family for the entirety of the war. That's where we reached him.

NK: Mohammed, today compared to one week ago. How would you describe the difference in life in Gaza City?

MOHAMMED WADI: Yes, actually, when the first moment of the truce begin in Gaza, it brings a mix of emotion, hope, relief and lingering anxiety. Many feel hopeful that that we've been offered a chance to pause the violence and begin recovery. So we are, we were happy the first day. Then the people start to think about their lives future.

NK: I know you have children and I think I can hear one of them behind you. How are you and your family feeling personally?

MW: Yeah, we're really happy about this ceasefire. And of course, at least we see some food entered Gaza that, you know, we didn't even saw it since the beginning of the war. A market full of goods, a lot of goods. They come from the south area of Gaza Strip. And we have a lot of things that we did not see it since the months because of the war. Nine months, we did not eat chicken. So the chicken even now, even I can't buy chicken. But unfortunately, just really, to be honest with you, there is many people or thousands of people inside the market. Did they just go for looking. There is really poor people here in Gaza City. You know, the war is affecting all life aspect of a lot of the people. So, of course, they just went to the market. Some of them, they can buy something for, his kids, for his family, but the rest just they are looking. I saw a lot of people inside the market. So the people just only go for seeing some new foods.

NK: The cease fire means people who were displaced and had to leave northern Gaza are able to return to what is left there. Some of your colleagues have been able to go back. What are they telling you about what they found?

MW: This is the horrible thing that I need to speak about today. You know, it's like I have the [inaudible] from my team. They were living in north, in Gaza. Imagine 16 out of 20, they lost their homes. This is really horrible. And if we are talking about the community in the north, in Gaza, before the ceasefire, almost the like 90 per cent of all those in Gaza people, they came to Gaza City and they live in the centre of Gaza City. Now, when they went, they did not find anything for them. I mean, there is no place for them. There's no hope for them.

NK: Are your colleagues who lost their homes, are they imagining rebuilding? Are they hopeful about that?

MW: This is the good question. I think some of them they came back to me and we chat during our work inside the clinic. Some of them, you know, they prefer to leave Gaza, instead to rebuild. You know, there is no hope for them, maybe because of the situation, maybe we don't know what was going on. Maybe this ceasefire is three phases and we don't know if this one will carry on and will succeed to follow that next phase or not. This is something it's not really predictable for us. So we just wait day by day, day by day, we wait for the next phase. For me. I live in my parents’ home. And of course, I'm really happy that the ceasefire will continue and I hope that will continue. It's because of the Egyptian corridor that will open as we hit on the ceasefire details that I need to send my family outside, especially for my son, he needs a centre, medical centre for him. He has a lot of things to do for him. So I hope that we succeed to leave Gaza, at least for my son, for my family, this stays outside of Gaza?

NK: How old are your children?

MW: Yeah, I have four daughters and I have one boy. And the age of 16, the oldest, then 15, then 14, then 9, then 7.

NK: You feel that you need to leave and others do. What do you imagine for Gaza's future? What do you hope for people there?

MW: I hope that the Gaza will come back before the war. Like before the war, at least. At least this is what we need now. We need Gaza before the war. At least. We were, for me, I was really happy to stay in Gaza, really happy to continue my life in Gaza. Gaza is a good place for living. Gaza has a good weather. We have sea. We have a lot of things that we can, we must stay in Gaza to live. But now Gaza is destroyed. There is no hope. There is no hope. I have kids. I need to continue their education. So there is no school, There is no sanitation, There is no hospitals. There is no water. There's a lot of things. There is a lot of gaps. This is, that I witnessed here in Gaza City and north in Gaza. It's worse.

NK: Mohammed, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

MW: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

CH: Mohammed Wadi is a deputy medical coordinator with MSF in Gaza. We reached him in Gaza City.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Underwater Photography

Guest: Steve Haining

CH: A woman with jet black hair is suspended in water wearing a flowing white dress and illuminated by ethereal light. At first glance, you think it's just a dreamy, sort of surreal photograph. At second glance, you think, How did they do that? Well, it was a high stakes underwater operation that involved tiger sharks, jellyfish and the risk of decompression sickness. But for Steve Haining, it was worth the risk. The Canadian photographer and model Ciara Antowski plunged nearly 164 feet underwater, going past the decompression zone to capture images on the deck of a sunken ship off the Florida coast. The result, besides some amazing photos, is a Guinness World Record for the deepest underwater model photoshoot. We reached Steve Haining in Orlando, Florida.

NK: Steve, you've broken the underwater record before for a photograph. But this certainly upped the ante, we can say. Can you describe what you were thinking as you were making the descent this time?

STEVE HAINING: The descent was very distracting for me. I thought the planning leading up to the actual shot, I was, you know, overthinking everything, the same way you would planning any big project. But when I hopped in the water to the left side of my scuba tank, disconnected from my hip. And so I spent most of the descent clipping myself back together. And but by the time I had gotten to the top of the wreck, about 135 feet, I was back in good condition. I feel like that distraction took away from the nerves that I probably should have had.

NK: And by distraction, do you mean reason to panic? Because I think most people listening to that would be panicking in that moment. I know you're experienced down there but...

SH: Yeah, I mean, my, so the whole team has this rule of if three things go wrong, then we're not doing it. And so that was the one thing that went wrong. And after that, it was perfect. So I feel like if maybe that happened and then another thing happened right after it, maybe I'd be a little bit more nervous or I'm sure anybody on the team would see that.

NK: And that speaks to the planning, as you've mentioned, the logistics and strategizing and preparation that you would need for any dive, but certainly a dive and a photo shoot. Can you take us through some of the other things you had to do? I mean, the shoot itself took less than an hour. If I'm not mistaken. But how long were you planning for this?

SH: So, we had planned it for over a year. When I did the last record at 100 feet, we were already planning a deeper shoot. I didn't plan on it being 163.5 feet, but we were planning much deeper and in much more favorable conditions, warmer water. And so, we had started prepping there. I did a whole bunch of technical training. This dive is kind of beyond the dive master limit, beyond the deep specialty limit. We're going to a place that not a lot of divers go. And so, I was already well on my way getting ready for it. And I was training with some technical divers in Florida. And Ciara approached me because she wanted to be the model again. She was the model on the first shoot and she was there at the second shoot, but she was not trained enough to do the second shoot at the time, and it was really cold for her to deal with. So she went through a whole year of training and about a month out and she flew down to Florida and we practiced for a month in controlled environments leading up to the shoot.

NK: What does it look and feel like to go past the decompression zone?

SH: You can't just go right up to the surface. You have to do stage decompression. As you go down, you're unloading more nitrogen, which means that you can get narcosis, start to feel dizzy or sleepy. Kind of like the laughing gas effect of going to the dentist. So we had to offset that by mixing in helium into our tanks. It just logistically became a lot more things to be concerned of. Once your very deep, compressed air stays partially compressed after you're in, you know, more atmospheres of pressure. And so you run through your air supply a lot faster as well. So there was a lot of like a huge list of how long to go down, how much equipment to bring, how much air to bring, how slow to go back up. The planning took up, took most of the time.

NK: How many of you are down there? It's not just you and the model, or am I mistaken?

SH: No. So it was, it was nice because we had a bigger team this time and it actually helped me feel a lot safer and make me more confident because when we do this, it's about knowing a hundred per cent that the model will be safe the entire time through. Ciara kind of puts her life in my hands and my team's hands. And so we have to deliver on knowing that nothing will ever go wrong. And so this time there was six people on the team. It was myself and Ciara. But then we had Wayne, who was her direct to air supply. So once she took off her scuba equipment he was her lifeline. Making sure she had air if she needed, her mask so she could see us and hang out for a minute. Then I had Doug, who was helping me with lighting the set because as you go deeper underwater, you lose colour. So you need light to start to bring back those colours. And then I also had a safety diver, Ray. And then above us, we had Marisha, who's been on all three of my record shoots. It was nice to have her as kind of a direct line to the surface. She didn't pass the no decompression limit. She was there If there was an emergency and we needed somebody to go up and tell somebody.

NK: And what made you want to go from photography on land to underwater photography and then record breaking, underwater photography?

SH: So my underwater photography started just the same way any person who's a recreational diver starts where, you know, you see interesting things underwater, sea life, coral reefs, shipwrecks. And it didn't turn into portraiture until when the lockdowns happened during the pandemic because it was a way for us to have social distancing underwater where somebody had their own air supply as we were following the rules at the time but could still do portrait photography. But what I started loving about it was that I could take my job, which I'm confident in. And then bring it into an environment where I'm taking away visibility, I'm taking away the ability to speak and direct. I'm taking away how to light things properly. And so it just started challenging the way I take portraits. And I loved that. It just became really fun for me.

NK: And what do you want the viewer, the person who takes in this photograph looks at it, stares at it, wonders how you did it. What do you want them to feel and know when they look at it?

SH: I hope that they look at it and feel some sort of an emotion of the contrast of it. You know, these decaying shipwrecks contrasted with the comfort and calmness of a model on them. And then, the just complications of it. I've had I don't know how many people have told me that they didn't believe it was real because really, you don't usually see somebody like that in that type of an environment.

NK: So are you done now? Or are you going to try to break this record again in a couple of years?

SH: I keep saying with these records, like we did it just for fun and that's it. And then everybody gets excited again and then we go do it again. And then everybody gets excited again. So I'm sure somewhere down the line we'll do it again.

NK: And maybe we'll speak again, Steve. But for now, enjoy this. Congratulations. Thank you.

SH: Thank you.

CH: Steve Haining is a Canadian photographer who just set a Guinness World Record for deepest underwater model photoshoot. He's in Orlando, Florida.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Dylan Lyrics

Guest: Myles Aronowitz

CH: Myles Aronowitz and his siblings have just parted with a family heirloom. Mr. Aronowitz is a New York photographer and the son of the late music journalist Al Aronowitz, who covered everyone from Allen Ginsberg to Miles Davis and the Beatles. And he didn't just write about his famous subjects, he famously became their friends. Stashed in the extensive collection that he left to his children was a draft of "Mr. Tambourine Man", typed and corrected by Bob Dylan himself and written at the Aronowitz's kitchen table. And on the weekend, that draft was sold at auction for more than half a million dollars U.S. We reached Myles Aronowitz in Nyack, New York.

NK: Myles, did you know that this draft of "Mr. Tambourine Man" was in your father's archive?

MYLES ARONOWITZ: Well, there were many family stories about that and many other things that we heard were probably in, in, in the files. But he lost track of it. He didn't know where it was. He wasn't sure he even still had it or that it was just lost or stolen because of the, you know, so many times he moved. And so we didn't know where it was. We weren't even sure it was there. We've been discovering and rediscovering all of these wonderful little treasures that were part of my father's life as a journalist and as a personal friend to so many important recording artists, poets and musicians.

NK: And I saw in the video that the auction house put up that they were crumpled up and in the trash bin. Your father sees them, thinks okay. I'm going to throw them out and then thinks, okay, maybe, I shouldn't. Did Bob Dylan know that your dad didn't throw them out?

MA: You know, that's a good question. You know, we don't know. [laughs] We don't know. My guess is that he just put them in a folder and forgot about it and that maybe he didn't tell Bob. But, you know, it wasn't something that he had special plans for. He just knew he didn't want to lose it. That's all.

NK: Yeah, and the other big question is, people are probably at home going, how is Bob Dylan typing in the vicinity of your family, let alone at their, at that family's kitchen table?

MW: Well, my father, as a journalist, you know, had already had quite a career. He started as a police reporter for the Newark News in 1950. And he did this 12 part series for The New York Post on "The Beat Poets". And he recognized this really incredible genius that was unfolding, you know, right in front of him. He became lifelong friends with Allen Ginsberg. And when he was assigned to do other stories, like the one on Bob Dylan, he also recognized the genius of Bob's work. And Bob recognized something in my father. You know, my father was close with "The Beat Poets", and Bob was very interested in them. So he my father introduced Bob Dylan to Allen Ginsberg and then later introduced Bob Dylan to The Beatles. Who he also had been getting quite close with. So to answer your question originally about, how did he end up in our house writing "Mr. Tambourine Man". They spent a lot of time together. My father really hung out with him. And they were friends, as my father tells me. I was very young. I was probably about eight years old. But as I understand it, Bob had been traveling and had just returned to New York, was in the middle of a breakup with his girlfriend and was hanging out at our house.

NK: What else do you think is hidden in those archives, or have you have you gone through it all now? Do you know what's there and are just deciding what to do with it?

MA: In the archives there are so many things. There's, my father taped his interviews from the late '50s all the way through till he died, and they're just amazing. There's hundreds of them with all types of musicians and actors and artists in the tapes. There's an interview with Ernest Hemingway, of all people. It's amazing. There's an interview with The Beatles in 1964 in a London hotel room for an hour. There's a recording that my father made at our Thanksgiving dinner in 1970. And guests, were David Bromberg and George Harrison and his wife, Patti.

NK: Do you remember that dinner?

MA: Oh. Yeah. Yeah. [NK chuckles] After dinner. After dinner, George and David wrote a song together. And my father recorded that song. This recording is of George singing it. The only existing one. The song is called "The Hold Up".

NK: You're going to pull it up for us and play it now. Is that what you're offering? We're going to get a world exclusive right now, Myles.

MA: Wouldn't that be fun?

NK: Wouldn't it be, maybe not today. But I have to ask, you know, as you're telling me these stories and there are so many more, Myles, I'm sure. You had to share your father with a lot of extremely talented, famous, extraordinary people. You've lived in an extraordinary life alongside your dad. So sharing some of this archive and soon more of it with the broader public. What is that like for you?

MA: Well, it's been a lot of emotion lately, bringing my father's legacy to the public in a way that he always wanted it to be here. You know, to be recognized. You know, he quite immodestly claimed that the '60s would not have been the same without him. And it's actually true. But it's really very meaningful for me and my brother and my sister to help my father finally find his place in the wider history of, you know, journalism and in our cultural landscape.

NK: Thank you so much for this. Myles, I suspect we may speak again. I appreciate this. Thank you.

MA: You're welcome.

CH: Myles Aronowitz is a photographer and the son of the legendary music journalist Al Aronowitz. We reached him in Nyack, New York.

[Music: Rock instrumental]

Splitting Atom

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: Americans push thousands of miles through a rugged land of untamed wilderness. They cross deserts, scaled mountains, braved untold dangers. Won the Wild West, ended slavery, rescued millions from tyranny, lifted billions from poverty, harnessed electricity, split the atom, launched mankind into the heavens, and put the universe of human knowledge into the palm of the human hand.

CH: There are two main things we can take away from that portion of U.S. President Donald Trump's second inaugural speech. First, his microphone technique is not the best. He really pops this P's. And second, Americans split the atom. But only one of those things is true. And it's the part about his painfully persistent P-word problem. Now, Americans have split atoms, so maybe when he said they split The atom, Mr. Trump was referring to a particular atom that he liked. But if we're talking about splitting the atom as a scientific achievement, well, that was definitely the work of one Ernest Rutherford. And would you like to know where he was born? And would you like that fact to be accompanied by emphatic tootling?

SOUNDCLIP

NARRORATOR: He was born to James and Martha Rutherford in this small house in Spring Grove, New Zealand, on the 30th of August 1871.

CH: That's right, New Zealand, a country that was not pleased to hear about Mr. Trump's atomic bombshell. The mayor of Nelson, New Zealand, which is near Mr. Rutherford's birthplace, invited the president to, quote, "visit the Lord Rutherford Memorial in Brightwater so we can keep the historic record on who put the atom first accurate", unquote. And on social media, Ben Uffindell the editor of a satiric website in New Zealand posted, "Trump just claimed America Split the atom. That's the one thing WE did". Well, look, we all know you did it, New Zealand. I mean, almost all of us know you did it. And we've duly put your objections on the record. But if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it anymore. You'll just give yourself a splitting headache.

[Music: Funky instrumental]

Part 2: Leonard Peltier Commutation, Talkback: Cherry Blossoms, Sea Vomit, Photographer Rescues Owl

Leonard Peltier Commutation

Guest: James H. Reynolds

CH: In his final minutes in office as president yesterday, Joe Biden commuted the life sentence of Leonard Peltier, now 80 years old and in poor health. The onetime American-Indian movement activist was convicted of killing two FBI agents in a 1975 gunfight in South Dakota. He was extradited from Canada in 1976. Mr. Peltier has always maintained his innocence, and many have pointed to holes in the case against him and pointed out that two other activists charged in the shootout were found to have acted in self-defense. Advocates for Mr. Peltier's release have included Pope Francis, the Dalai Lama, Nelson Mandela and '90s rockers Rage Against the Machine. James H. Reynolds has also called for clemency. He's a former U.S. attorney who led the prosecution during Mr. Peltier's appeal in 1978. We reached Mr. Reynolds in Naples, Florida.

NK: James Reynolds, you wrote to three presidents calling for a commutation, most recently to outgoing President Biden. Did you think this was going to be the time you got what you and so many others were asking for?

JAMES REYNOLDS: I could only hope. Every president that I could I wrote to, after the 30 years he'd been in. And I thought that was enough, was enough.

NK: So to see it happen. What did that mean to you?

JR: I'm sorry to see that happen to be in the last minutes of his presidency, but I'm glad that President Biden did it. And I'm sorry that the others didn't do it earlier. So that Leonard could have had some time with his family.

NK: Why do you think it took this long?

JR: The case basically, when the other two Indians were tried in the case, were acquitted by the 12 person jury on the basis of self-defense. The FBI was really embarrassed. And it wasn't, it came out to be a rather embarrassing episode for the FBI. And Leonard became the only answer they got for any salvation of their reputation or their ego. And I think that, that was the problem.

NK: The president of the FBI Agents Association, you may have seen, was quoted in The New York Times today and called the commutation itself, quote, "disgraceful, cowardly and lacking in accountability". What would you say, James, to people who don't agree with what has happened and believe that the sentence should stand?

JR: Well, I think that what the president of the FBI association described was his own association. They have been terrible in this. And then the jury of 12 people found them, found the other two Indians not guilty by reason of self-defense. So, therefore, those that are taking FBI's position, I think are on pretty shaky ground.

NK: I mentioned the letters you've written. You've apologized for your role in the prosecution. What changed your mind about this case?

JR: Well, first of all, 30 years, I mean, it was after 30 years that finally when they told me then he had asked for clemency and I agreed that I would join with him in it. And his attorney was a former federal judge who felt like I did, that this was just not a fair deal and that he ought to be helped.

NK: Since you started speaking up and since you apologized, your colleagues and friends from the FBI or from the prosecution, what have they said to you?

JR: No, nothing. Nothing. The only person who ever said anything was a couple of spokespeople for the FBI who've been doing it for years as part of their job.

NK: And what does that signal to you? That the people you worked with and the agents that you knew and know didn't say anything?

JR: Well, I there's a there's a tremendous amount of opprobrium that comes with that comes with saying that you're wrong. And a lot of people just don't want to do it. And particularly where you're in the bureaucracy of the justice system, where it's really very hard to do. So I understand. I don't condone it, but I understand it.

NK: How does it sit with you personally that you didn't see the injustice sooner?

JR: Well, it's part of our government. And take a look at America's relationship with the, with its American-Indians. It's been terrible. It's absolutely atrocious. It's not something that we should ever be proud of in the world, the way we've treated our American-Indians. And so, I don't, I don't have any glee in the fact that we finally got it. But then it took this long. It just seems wrong that we can't right wrongs sooner.

NK: What are the emotions that you've wrestled with since coming to the realizations that you have and since pushing for a commutation?

JR: Well, the realization that there's very little I can do. I can write the letters to the president and, you know, join in with the Pope and everybody else who's been writing on behalf of Leonard but, you know, you realize it is so going to have to be somebody in the system that finally does commute the sentence. But he still hasn't been let out. He's going to be going to a reservation, which in modern times is another prison. I mean, it's run by the federal government and it's policed by the FBI. I mean, come on. I mean, he's out, but he's really not free.

NK: I believe you've never spoken to Leonard Peltier. Is there anything you would like to say? What would you say to him if you had the opportunity?

JR: I'm sorry.

NK: James, Thank you.

JR: You bet.

CH: James H. Reynolds is a former U.S. attorney. We reached him in Naples, Florida. Commuting Leonard Peltier's life sentence was one of Joe Biden's final acts as president. One of Donald Trump's first acts as president was to attend a national prayer service at the Washington National Cathedral today. Speaking to reporters afterwards, he said he, quote, "didn't think it was a good service", unquote. His negative review may have had something to do with Bishop Mariann Edgar Bidde's decision to use her sermon to directly address the president. Here's Bishop Bidde with our Sound of the Day.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIANN EDGAR BIDDE: I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country. Who are scared now. There are gay, lesbian and transgender children in Democratic, Republican and independent families, some who fear for their lives. And the people, the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings, who labor in poultry farms and meatpacking plants who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and work the night shifts in hospitals, they may not be citizens or have the proper documentation. But the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. They pay taxes and are good neighbours. They are faithful members of our churches and mosques, synagogues, [inaudible] and temples.

CH: For the record, Episcopal Bishop of Washington, Marianne Edgar Bidde addressing a congregation that included President Donald Trump earlier today.

[Funky instrumental]

Talkback: Cherry Blossoms

CH: The Cherry Blossom might be leaving our shelves, but we will not let it go quietly. Last week I told you that the little chocolate mound containing a decomposing maraschino cherry has been discontinued by Hershey's Canada. And I asked you -- when you stopped weeping -- to share your memories of the beloved or be-tolerated. Bon bon.

[voicemail tone]

KATE: Hi, this is Kate McCrea in Fredericton. It comes as no surprise to me that Hershey’s has stopped making the Cherry Blossom. It's been rubbish since they took over, making it. Lowney's chocolate tasted like chocolate. Hershey's chocolate tastes like wax.

[Voicemail tone]

LEANNE TOURIA: Hi, this is Leanne Touria. I'm calling from Sudbury. So my grandmother and I spent a lot of time together when I was a kid and young lady. But at one point, she handed me a cherry and she's like, Here, here's a cherry for the one you lost. It was a Cherry Blossom. And I didn't get the joke. I didn't get the inference that she had made. I was just a young lady. And as an adult, I kind of figured out what that meant. So I'm thinking she didn't even know what she was talking about. But I know that my grandmother's absolute favourite treat was the Cherry Blossom.

[voicemail tone]

GABRIELLE ZOKA: Hello, this is Gabrielle Zoka calling from Toronto. Cherry Blossoms were my grandmother, Gloria's favourite chocolate and candy. And all of us knew that. And we would always get that for her. And after she died, all of us have made sure to keep a Cherry Blossom in our house. I personally find it a bit gross, and I think it scared me as a child, but it does remind me of her. So I'm going to go panic, buy a bunch of them. Thanks to your show.

CH: Thanks for your calls. It's clear that the Cherry Blossom has a special place in the hearts and minds of grandmothers. Ms. Touria, I'm sure. I have no idea what your grandmother was referring to, but she sounds great. And Ms. Zoka, I'm so glad we were able to provide the service of helping you fill your cupboards with candy that scares and disgusts you. And we also got some email. James Scott writes, "Was saddened to hear of the end of my late sister Kim's favourite confection. Her eyes bright. She ritualized the unwrapping of the silver paper surrounding the thing, nibbling until the goo inside would appear. Her pleasure was clear. To this day, I believe it's the queen of the candy counter". And Joyce George Redvers added, "My husband's parents ran a general store in small town Saskatchewan. The family legend was told many times that when his 16 year old sister was in charge of the store one day, she ate 24 cherry blossoms. She is 91 years old now and still has her own teeth". Thanks to everyone who called and wrote, If you're 91 and you ate 24 cherry blossoms one time or you ate one once and you were confused. Either way, call Talkback at (416) 205-5687 or email us at aih@cbc.ca.

[Music: Jazzy instrumental]

Sea Vomit

Guest: Claire Goodwin

CH: Researchers in New Brunswick are on a mission to track down sea vomit. And not just any sea vomit, such as a seal or a giant squid might produce after eating some bad seafood. I'm talking about the invasive marine invertebrate called sea vomit, which scientists fear may be spreading in the Bay of Fundy. That spread could become a concern for other marine species and the industries that depend on them. So researchers have enlisted scallop fishers to help them figure out just how common sea vomit is. Research scientist Claire Goodwin is leading the project. We reached her in St. Andrews, New Brunswick.

NK: Claire is the actual sea vomit. Is it as disgusting as it sounds?

CLAIRE GOODWIN: It is pretty revolting looking. I mean, it really does look like a bit like a patch of vomit on the sea bed.

NK: And it has some other names too, though.

CG: It does for sure. Some people call it the "pancake batter tunicate". And it really comes down to the same thing. It looks like someone poured pancake batter down onto the seabed, forming this big yellowy patch.

NK: And carpet sea squirt.

CG: Yeah. Again, the same thing it forms this carpet over the sea beds.

NK: Do you have a favourite or least favourite?

CG: We're using sea vomit because it does have some harmful effects and we think the sort of vomit words really captures that.

NK: Yeah, it illustrates that even if you've never seen it before, you get the idea from all of those names.

CG: Yeah. [laughs] for sure.

NK: What does it actually, what does it actually look, feel and maybe even smell like Claire?

CG: Okay, so this is an [inaudible] which forms a rubbery mat over the seabed. So if you touch this mat, it's not soft like a sponge would be. And it is actually quite sort of rubbery and firm to the texture. And if you look at it closely, it's got these channels over its surface that you can see. And sometimes when it's growing, it forms these finger like tassels coming out from a surface as well or dangling down from something like if it's on the bottom of the hull of a boat. You might see those dangling down underneath the boat.

NK: It was first spotted in 2013 in the Bay of Fundy. You think it might be spreading? What gives you that concern?

CG: Well, and when it was spotted in 2013, Fisheries and Oceans Canada did do some survey work after that, and they found it at a few locations. But since then, it hasn't really been seen. But in 2020, we found it to be quite widespread around Bear Island in New Brunswick and really covering quite extensive areas of the seabeds. And we're wondering whether that's related to the warming of water temperatures in the Bay of Fundy.

NK: It's more than just a funny and a little bit gross name or an ugly thing to see. What are the other concerns you have about its spread?

CG: Well, this is an invasive species and it can grow very, very quickly and form these extensive matts over the seabed. And what they do is they outcompetes native marine life. So it's smothering the things that would normally be living on the seabed. So things like sea anemones and sponges and other native tunicates is out competing. And then it's also preventing things that either feed on things in the seabed or live in the seabed accessing those habitats. And that food. And so it can have quite big effects on our native species.

NK: Scallop fishermen are going to be helping you in this project. What exactly will they be doing?

CG: Yeah, that's correct. So at the moment we don't really know where the species is in the Bay of Fundy and at the moment is scallop seasons. There's lots of fishers out all over the place catching in the Bay of Fundy and when they drag the seabirds. They could be catching this species as well. So what we've our fishers to do is collect samples, if they do see it and send them in to us.

NK: And once they send them in, what's the process of investigating them? What kind of secrets would they hold? What would you be looking for within them to help answer some of the questions we've talked about?

CG: Oh great. Well, first of all, we do have to check whether it really is sea vomit because there's quite a lot of things that can look a little bit like it, particularly if you're not used to seeing it. So we look at the samples down the microscope and just confirm it is really sea vomit. And then after that we can use these samples for a genetic study we're working on with the University of New Brunswick and try and determine where these populations are coming in from.

NK: And once you make those determinations, if it is indeed spreading and it's, you know, invasive, as you've talked about and a concern on that front, is there already a way that is known to control the sea vomit population, if we can call it that?

CG: Yeah. Well, there have been different techniques tried in other parts of the world. So people have tried things like physical removal and they've tried chemical methods for control. Well, obviously when is covering a very large area of the seabed, it can be problematic to do these things. So really what we want to try is to try and stop introducing it into new areas where it can get established. We've been looking at some ways to do that.

NK: Claire I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

CG: Well, thanks for talking to me.

CH: Claire Goodwin is a research scientist with the Huntsman Marine Science Center. We reached her in St. Andrew's, New Brunswick.

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Photographer Rescues Owl

CH: Photographer Murray Zelt always wanted to capture an image of an owl in the midst of hunting prey, but never quite got the opportunity. And he still hasn't. Earlier this month he was in B.C.'s Cariboo region where he saw a beautiful northern pygmy owl. And then he saw it get hit by a car. Spoiler alert the owl lived. Today, Mr. Zelt told the CBC about the moments right before disaster struck.

SOUNDCLIP

MURRAY ZELT: Take 5-10 minutes. Finally comes out of the grass in this huge mole, which is a type of mouse hanging from its talons. And I think that was part of the problem because it was so heavy. It tried to fly across the highway into the bush but didn't get enough height. And I'm elated seeing it with this prey and just in awe and wonder. And next thing you know, this car. Exactly. At that time nailed it dead on the highway. And it's due at highway speed like 90km. So I see the owl bounce on the road and its prey flies out of its hands, or its talons excuse me. And I'm like, my gosh. I just literally yelled out, oh no! And I was I just went from total elation to total shock and horror. I watched the traffic and a truck went right over top of it but straddled it with the tire. So I thought, thank God it didn't get flattened or, you know, it's dead for sure, but I already thought it was dead. There's no way it's going to survive that impact. So then I quickly went out before the next car, scooped it with my bare hand, and it's just lifeless in my hand. And it's like I literally had tears in my eyes. And I thought, no, you know, I said a few prayers, really. Dear Lord, don't let it die. And I'm walking back to my car and it's little talons are quivering in my hand. And I thought, Well, it's either the nerves, I thought it was just dying and it's going through the last stages of the nerves flickering around in it. And I laid it in the floor mat of my car and I literally was just devastated. I didn't want to see that ever happen. And it starts to try to move and tries to kind of get itself on to its feet. And I'm like, what!? And I thought, I can't leave it now, I'm going to drive it to my place to further check it out, I thought I'd better put it in a bag or something, just in case it tries to fly in my car. So I pick it up with my hand, put it in a cloth grocery bag and it sinks it's talons. And then one of my fingers and then I realize, okay, this thing's got some fight left in it. So, it might survive. And I had to pry the individual talons out of my fingers before I could get it in the bag. And I'm like, Is this for real? Is this really happening? Like, I was just total shock. Yeah. I drove home to my place and I called a wildlife rehab center and the guy says, Well, they're tough. I says, There's no way it's going to survive. It's probably all mangled, you know, internal injuries and head trauma. He says, Well, you'd be surprised how tough they are, he said, put it in a dark box, with a blanket or whatever. And so I did all that. And actually with the toaster box, my or a coffee pot box that my son and daughter-in-law got me for Christmas. They said, oh you put that to good use. And that was his home for the night. But he says you're going to have to try to see if it can fly, I couldn't examine wings like a veterinarian would, but he said, let it out in a small room and see if it can fly. Later on, it seems to be coming around. So, that evening I went to check on it, it wasn't my intention to see if he could fly to open the box. And I was talking to it and it was turning around these big, beautiful yellow eyes and all of a sudden it just darts out of the box. Like this is it's chance [inaudible] flies over my shoulder and lands on the very top shelf of my entrance way on my tennis racket. [laughter] Well, the next morning I actually got a photographer, lady friend I met, [inaudible], and she, after I told her about it. She was like, yes, I'd love to help you release it. So the very next morning we went out to the same area and went quite a ways on the highway. Of course, try to get it as far away from the road and I took it out of the box, held it on my glove and it didn't even take off right away. It kind of just looked at me like about five seconds, almost like it was thanking me, whatever. It was really beautiful moment. And then it darts off my hand and flies, it flew straight up high into the trees, really, really strong flight. So it looked really good odds that it was going to make it.

CH: That was Murray Zelt, talking to Shelley Joyce on Daybreak Kamloops today.

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Part 3: Musk Salute, FOA: Jan 6 Pardons, Encampment Fire, Haggis Ban Changes, Mini Update: Danish Parenting Tests

Musk Salute

Guest: Judd Legum

CH: Among the many speakers during Donald Trump's inauguration festivities yesterday was his billionaire backer and recent right hand man Elon Musk, who celebrated the president's victory as a, quote, "fork in the road of human civilization", unquote. He also thrust his hand in the air in an apparent Nazi salute. His supporters have since claimed that he was, in fact, gesturing from my heart to you. And Mr. Musk has said that his detractors, quote, "need better dirty tricks", unquote. But he made the gesture more than once, and he made it very decisively. The coverage, however, has been less decisive.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: A hand gesture by billionaire Elon Musk during a speech at Donald Trump's inauguration is causing controversy, with some comparing it to a fascist salute.

REPORTER 2: Musk raised eyebrows for a gesture. Some are comparing to a Nazi salute.

REPORTER 3: You saw him come out with that odd looking salute. [Yeah]. It was odd looking. We're going to show a screengrab of it. And as he said, to him, "the future of civilization is assured now that Trump won".

CH: Judd Legum is a lawyer and investigative journalist who founded the progressive newsletter Popular Information, and is now embarking on a new project, a website and newsletter dedicated to covering Elon Musk and his influence on President Trump. We reached Mr. Legum in Washington, D.C.

NK: Judd, you saw what happened on stage. In your mind, what gesture was Elon Musk making.

JUDD LEGUM: That was a Nazi salute. I don't think there was any question about it. The gesture is what the gesture is. I also think you have to look at this in the context of his other actions, which include platforming, replatforming neo-Nazis who had been kicked off Twitter and also his support for far right parties in Germany. So I don't think this is an isolated incident, and that also has to be taken into consideration.

NK: You may have seen the Anti-Defamation League says that this is, quote, "an awkward gesture" in their words. They said, you know, folks shouldn't jump to conclusions. The ADL looks at antisemitism and human rights. It's a watchdog. What did you make of what they said?

JL: I think it struck me as an odd and politically motivated statement. If you look on the ADL Web site, they actually have, I think, a very clear definition of what they call a "Hitler salute". And it's pretty much identical to what Musk did.

NK: We heard a bit of the coverage as it was happening. What did you make of that coverage?

JL: Well, I think this is coming from news organizations that are attempting to be fair and do not wish to engage in hyperbole. And I think in most circumstances, those are valid and noble instincts. But I think there needs to be a recalibration of what kind of political environment we are currently in and to recognize that reality.

NK: Elon Musk is one of many billionaires who were present at the inauguration events yesterday and through the evening. Wealthy people have certainly held sway over U.S. politics and politicians in general in the past. What is different this time, and specifically with Elon Musk from where you sit?

JL: Well, there's some very tangible differences. For instance, the billionaires and other wealthy people who had sway over previous administrations did not have an office in the White House complex, as Elon Musk will have. I think that there was an important symbolic gesture where Musk, along with Bezos, Zuckerberg, the other billionaires who were in attendance. They were placed in the front row. His cabinet or his proposed cabinet was placed a row behind them. And so I think it represents a reordering of the power structure where wealth is really central to political power.

NK: What was the moment you decided, Judd, that you needed to focus your work and your attention on Musk and to make a dedicated website? MuskWatch.com. That, that would be your way of pushing back.

JL: I wanted to launch this and I've made, I've hired people whose work it is exclusively to do this because I think that right now the media is structured around the old system of how power was distributed. We have people covering Congress. We have people covering the energy industry. But right now, so much power is held in the hands of just a small handful of people. And we need to recalibrate the journalistic and investigative resources we have to center on those people so that they can be held accountable for whatever it is that they do.

NK: On the issue of the kind of journalism you do. You're progressive. You're clear about that. You've talked about advocacy journalism, or even, as you've called it, adversarial journalism. I hear what you're saying about the importance of calling something what it is and focusing on someone who has a lot of power, clearly over this administration and this president. But do you worry that that can erode trust in journalism as most people know it?

JL: Well, I think, I think that's always possible. And trust is a tricky thing. But I think that what has really eroded trust is the media trying to hide their actual viewpoints and perspectives from the audience, because everyone is just a person and everyone has these viewpoints. So my way of trying to build trust is rather than pretending I'm someone that I am not. I'm going to be honest with my readership and then they can take that and evaluate it and check my sources and come up with their own conclusions. And so that effort to uncover the facts, that is at the core of my work.

NK: Are you concerned about being targeted specifically by Elon Musk? He has a lot of money. He sued other people before.

JL: I'm not particularly worried because I've been covering Musk and other litigious, powerful people for many years now. And I believe that as long as I do not publish things that I know are not true, that I will be okay. And I think that when you're in this business and you're trying to do work that is impactful, you have to let the search for truth be what motivates you. And you can't worry about hypotheticals.

NK: In terms of impact and reach. Are you worried, though, that people visiting the site are just those who tend to agree with you about Elon Musk?

JL: I think that it's certain kinds of people gravitate to certain kinds of media. And I hope that people of all political persuasions come and sign up for this newsletter because I think they'll learn something. But I also think regardless of people's views, a lot of information is spread by people talking to one another. So if you could reach a large audience, even if that audience maybe at the start is homogenous, each of those people are little nodes with their own circle of friends and family and influence that they may share what they've learned when they read your newsletter.

NK: Judd I'm glad we could speak. Thank you for your time.

JL: Thanks for having me.

CH: Judd Legum is the founder of the new website MuskWatch.com. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

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FOA: Jan 6 Pardons

CH: They were sent to prison for violently storming the U.S. Capitol. Now they're free. In one of his first acts as president, Donald Trump kept his promise and issued pardons and commutations to roughly 15 hundred January 6th rioters. That includes two of the country's most prominent far right leaders. Enrique Tarrio of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes, both of whom planned the attack on the Capitol. Hundreds of police officers were injured in that attack, which has been linked to nine deaths, including suicides. Aquilino Gonell was one of the officers hurt in the attack. Two weeks ago when Congress certified Donald Trump's election win, he told Neil how he felt about the possibility of pardons.

SOUNDCLIP

AQUILINO GONELL: He ran on it. And the majority of the people in this country, they, they, they decided that the president, I don't know what to call him, former president, elect, president-elect, or felon-elect. But, you know, it's, they voted for him. And it is very challenging to reconcile that, that this person that claimed to be the law and order, the biggest supporter of police, is the one that is about to pardon people who were breaking the law on his behalf under his banner. And because they were his supporter, he's going to pardon them.

NK: Beyond the psychological weight of all of this that you carry, we mentioned to our listeners that you were injured four years ago. How are you doing physically?

AG: Physically, I'm able to do certain things, but I have some restrictions on my left arm. I don't have a lot of stamina. I can move and push, but I don't have a lot of stamina on the limb. Mentally, depending on what time of day or who I'm talking to about January 6th, or what part of my day, it becomes very emotional and traumatizing. But I have received treatment for it. What makes it even worse is the moral injury. Where we did the right thing, and yet, we are being vilified while the rioters, the people who were doing the attacking are being praised, not the officers. To this day, Donald Trump and a lot of Republicans, elected officials who survived January 6th, and have met with the police officers who protected them, who continue to protect them, and there will be some of those officers, if not most of the officers, at Trump's inauguration. The same officers that protected against Trump's mob on January 6th are the same ones that are going to be protecting him during his inauguration. And that's ironic. Because to this day, Donald Trump has not even apologized for his actions against the officers.

CH: Nil, speaking with former Capitol Police officer Aquilino Gonell two weeks ago about Donald Trump's promise to pardon January 6th rioters.

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Encampment Fire

CH: During yesterday's morning commute in Saskatoon, a fire at an encampment under University Bridge shut it down. And not for the first time. The bridge is still closed to traffic. A bridge inspection has been scheduled for tomorrow. So far, no injuries have been reported, but it's the second time in recent years a fire at an encampment has forced the closure of the bridge. Stephanie Watson is a volunteer with SAGE Clan Patrol, which was out Sunday night in the freezing weather at the encampment.

SOUNDCLIP

STEPHANIE WATSON: There is no way of keeping warm when you're outside. It doesn't matter how many layers you have, access to hot hand, stuff like that. At those types of temperatures, they don't last very long. So the only option is some form of heat or shelter.

STEPHANIE MASSICOTTE: So when you hear about something like the fire starting underneath the University Bridge, does it surprise you?

STEPHANIE WATSON: It doesn't surprise me. It makes my heart break because there is like just not enough places for the amount of people who need a safe place to go. And people are doing the best they can with the resources they have at hand. And they're choosing very risky situations. And we as a community and a society right now, we have refused to provide the basic necessities for survival. And one of those is, for example, I always ask people well, have you ever received survive outside training or survive in the cold training? And the first thing is that if you ever get lost or if you're out hiking or something like that is to create a warm source and create shelter. And we teach people this and we, but then the very people who are trying to do this within an urban setting, we remove that ability from them to be able to do that. And we don't give them the resources and supplies and items needed to be able to do it in a safe manner, either which lead to, unfortunately, situations like this could occur.

STEPHANIE MASSICOTTE: What do you think can be done to help folks who have nowhere to go?

STEPHANIE WATSON: Well, we need more immediate start up. We need to be listening. We don't have the infrastructure in place for people. We're seeing an increase in people becoming unhoused due to the lack of appropriate housing and safe housing and affordable housing. That number is just going to continue to increase until, because it takes time to build infrastructure, even if we act upon it. So in the interim, we need immediate solutions and those involve quick turnaround. So we need to be looking at this as if it's a natural disaster to a certain degree and be responding within a very short time frames with actual options for people. And yes, they're going to be complicated, but we already have people and trainings and situations that can come together to do this if they're provided the funding and the ability to do so with the current policies and laws that are in place.

CH: SAGE Clan Patrol volunteer Stephanie Watson speaking to Stephanie Massicotte on Saskatoon Morning today.

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Haggis Ban Changes

Guest: James Macsween

CH: Haggis is Scotland's national dish, considered a delicacy by many a Caledonian. But even its most diehard fans have to admit that it's traditionally offal, as in o-f-f-a-l. It's made of organ meats like sheep's liver, heart and lungs. Now, for some reason, it's just the lungs that are the problem overseas. Sheep lungs are banned in Canada and the U.S. Mind you; Canadians have been able to enjoy real, real-ish Scottish haggis minus the lungs since 2017. But bona fide haggis from Scotland has been banned in the USA for more than five decades. Now, Scotland's largest haggis maker is retooling its recipe with the hope of making it available to Americans. James Macsween is the managing director of Macsween of Edinburgh. We reached him in Edinburgh, Scotland.

NK: James, certainly people, you know, with connections to Scotland or of Scottish ancestry in the United States have been making their own haggis. But it has been five decades since people could have your products. And what many believe is, you know, is the truest form of haggis. What have they been missing out on?

JAMES MACSWEEN: Well, they've been missing out on Scotland's national dish. You know, there's not many foods around the world that can claim to be a country's national dish, especially eaten in its traditional sense at the Burns Supper, which would typically happen on the 25th of January. Every year, when we commemorate the life and works of Scotland's national poet, Robert Burns.

NK: And that is coming up this weekend. What was the holdup to keep your traditional version out of the U.S. all this time?

JM: Yeah. So, you know, I can start in Canada. We went through a similar process and exporting haggis for the very first time in 2017. And both Canada and the United States don't like the thought of eating lung meat, which is really good for you. It's very lean meat and makes fantastically tasty haggis. However, that is not on the Canadian or the American pallet, for that matter.

NK: Sheep's lung in particular. But the rule forbids, the rule forbids lungs from any livestock, but it's sheep lung that you use in haggis there. So, how will you get around that? What are you going to do instead?

JM: It's been a long process. You know, the whole journey started in 2015 when the Scottish Government wanted to try and get lamb and beef exports on the market. And in that time, you know, the change of presidents, the we've had COVID, we've had Brexit, we've had the rising cost inflation and all of these things have put huge delays. But lamb exports were finally made possible in October 2022 we've kind of been sitting on it hoping for things to get better because domestically, you know, there's been lots of challenges I've just touched on. But yeah, reformulating the recipe is relatively less complicated bit, but getting the right accreditation and acknowledgment from the USA government to allow lamb and beef to be exported has been the biggest stumbling block.

NK: But you still had to reformulate the recipe, as you said. So what is it that they are using now?

JM: We're using lamb heart instead of lung meat, which is very, very versatile, very tasty. And that's what we've been putting into the haggis we've been exporting Canada since 2017 with great success.

NK: Yeah, we had an interview about that back in 2017 before I joined the show and talked about Canadians getting access to that. How does it, you mentioned it's versatile, but to have such a specific recipe with so many ingredients, how does switching to a heart change the taste and texture and tradition of it in your view?

JM: Yeah, it makes it a bit more meaty because there's a bit more structure to heart because it's a firmer muscle meat. Certainly the flavor, the flavor is very similar, a bit meatier in texture. But it's still you know, it still performs as a haggis, as, as you would expect a haggis to perform domestically in the UK or the Caledonian Bar and in College Street in Toronto because they're one of my biggest customers. But yeah, it delivers, it delivers what somebody would expect a haggis to deliver. But the important thing to stipulate is this is not just a rule that affects export haggis. This is this is a rule that would affect domestically manufactured, domestically manufactured haggis in Canada and in the United States. They have to comply with the same regs. So the playing field is completely level. It's not that export haggis is different. We're all dealing with the same challenges. So it's how a manufacturer interprets those changes and then how they can, you know, craft the right flavor and profile and punch of seasoning is what makes the difference in a good haggis and on a poor haggis.

NK: Well, let's talk about that flavor and punch of seasoning, because for those who haven't tasted it. There's those who love it, as you talked about, the folks here in Toronto as well. But there is still a barrier for a lot of people, like their default is scrunching up their face and refusing to eat it. It's, other countries do similar things. So this is very unique. In Turkey, we have [inaudible], which is similar, but again, fewer ingredients, I think. So how would you describe what it tastes like to try to get people to get past that barrier that they have?

JM: Yeah. I think if I coin a phrase, if somebody asked me in Scotland or in England, what is haggis tastes like? It just tastes like pre spiced ground meat. So if you think about buying ground beef or ground lamb in Canada, the States and then adding seasonings and peppers and salts and herbs and spices to make it turn into something tasty. We've done all the hard work and we've done all the grinding and the mixing in, the mincing and the blending and the flavoring and the seasonings. And we deliver it in a casing that you just need to heat up quite quickly in a microwave or bake it in the oven in a casserole dish. Very tasty. Very satisfying. Fantastic when you have it with mashed potatoes and mashed rutabaga, it really is a very homely warming and satisfying food dish.

NK: James, I think you may have turned some people around maybe in time for Robbie Burns Day this weekend. How are you going to be celebrating?

JM: I'm funnily enough, I'm going to be eating haggis. I've got a big event with my largest customer in our store in the suburbs of Edinburgh where I address the haggis. And then on Saturday evening, I'll be having haggis with my family home prepared in the traditional way with mashed potatoes and turnip. And my sons will help participate in the address to the Haggis, which is the poem that you recite before you have a haggis.

NK: Thanks for this, James.

JM: My pleasure.

CH: James Macsween is the managing director of Macsween of Edinburgh. We reached him in Edinburgh, Scotland.

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Mini Update: Danish Parenting Tests

CH: Keira Kronvold was not the first Greenlandic mother whose children were apprehended because of Denmark's controversial parental competency tests. But she will be one of the last. The Danish government says it is ending the practice of using the tests to assess parental fitness following a backlash to Ms. Kronvold's case. In its statement, the government said, quote, "Doubts have been raised as to whether a standardized psychological test sufficiently takes into account the Greenlandic culture and language", unquote. Campaigners say the shift may also have something to do with Donald Trump's threats of acquiring Greenland, which have heightened tensions between Copenhagen and the semi-autonomous territory. But Ms. Kronvold's case was undoubtedly a catalyst. And in November, family rights advocate Najannguaq Christensen told us about the impact of a viral video in which Ms. Kronvold is separated from her newborn.

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NAJANNGUAQ CHRISTENSEN: I think that, you know, seeing how it happens and how it affects Greenlandic mothers, I think that anyone can sympathize with the way Keira is feeling right now to get her child taken away only two hours after giving birth. So although it's not unusual, I think it's different for people to see it with their own eyes and see how this practice that continues to reproduce itself is still continuing. And it is affecting not only the parents, but also our future current generation. And creating trauma not only to the parents, but also the children.

CH: Najannguaq Christensen fights for Greenlandic family rights as the co-founder of the group "Sila 360". We spoke with her in November. Denmark now says it will stop using the controversial parental competency tests that have resulted in many Greenlandic parents being separated from their children. Activists such as Inuit filmmaker Aka Hansen, say that in the future the work will be to, quote, "make sure each and every case is reevaluated by an Inuit team to make sure our children get a fair chance", unquote.

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CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC Listen App. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after Your World Tonight.

NK: And you can always read more about the stories and conversations we feature on As It Happens on our website, cbc.ca/aih. I'm Nil Köksal.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

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The AIH Transcript For January 21, 2025

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