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The AIH transcript for January 17, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Dance exactly like nobody's watching. The U.S. Supreme Court upholds the federal ban on TikTok, leaving Americans who rely on that app for their livelihoods at a loss.

CH: Un-housing crisis. Some people who lost their homes in the Los Angeles wildfires had just gotten into housing. An outreach worker tells us what the disaster means for the fight against homelessness.

NK: Red all over. Our guest tells us the case against Red Dye Number Three is more nuanced than recent headlines suggest. But he says that does not mean food dyes deserve a place on our plates.

CH: The arias of her expertise. The woman behind the world premiere of the earliest known opera by an African-American composer is very happy to dispel the myth that opera isn't a part of Black culture.

NK: Less oohs, more awes. [chuckling] All of Canada mourns, or at least some of Canada notices, when Hershey announces the historic, adequate candy known as the Cherry Blossom is leaving shelves forever.

CH: [deep sigh] [NK laughs] And...arch enemies. If you know the unique pain of stepping on a piece of Lego, then you'll be stunned by a New Zealand woman's 100-metre barefoot sprint over thousands of pieces of the most painful toy ever made.

CH: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that knows it must have been soul-crushing.

Part 1: TikTok Fallout, Creole Opera, Barefoot Lego Sprint

TikTok Fallout

Guest: Kati Kons

CH: It’s the app that revolutionized how we scroll, what we watch, and how we connect. But TikTok may be days away from shutting down in the United States. Today, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously upheld a federal law banning TikTok as of Sunday -- unless its China-based parent company, ByteDance, sells it. Now, the return of President Donald Trump does soften that deadline: he takes office on Monday, and is mulling over an executive order to save the app. And the CEO of TikTok will be among the tech moguls at his inauguration. So, this is an uncertain time for the millions who use the app for entertainment -- and for the creators and small businesses who take advantage of its global reach for their own livelihoods. Kati Kons is a queer wedding stylist. She gets most of her clients from TikTok. We reached her in Turin, Italy.

NK: Kati, there is certainly a very real possibility that, that, as of Sunday, TikTok is not going to work, at least in the way its users are used to it working in the United States. Has that sunk in for you yet?

KATI KONS: It sunk in that I was going to probably lose my business, but I don't know if I will, like, fully realize that until it happens. [chuckling].

NK: You're with a client wedding dress shopping in Italy right now. Describe what you mean to our listeners specifically about that. Why would this cost you your business?

KK: I get 90 per cent of my, maybe more, 90 per cent of my clients from TikTok. And I utilize both TikTok and Instagram to look for leads and generate leads for clientele. And I have not gotten a single lead from Instagram since I started my business, but I've gotten all my clients from TikTok. I think the pivot away from TikTok is going to be really, really tough.

NK: What is it about the way TikTok is working for you that if you put all of your attention into another platform, whether it's Instagram or something else, could it not have the same effect? What is happening in that respect on TikTok that you don't think could be replicated?

KK: I think there's a fundamental algorithmic difference. And this is a little,like, technical, but TikTok will post your videos to the "For You" page, which is where almost,like, the vast majority of people watch their content, right? The For You page is any content that the algorithm thinks that you would like. Whereas on Instagram, your home page is all the people that you follow, and it's your circle, it's your network. So, the thing that TikTok has fundamentally, like, changed about social media is that the vast majority of the content that you're seeing is new every single time. It's really interesting. But it has changed --

NK: We've certainly seen other platforms, and I'm thinking of Instagram specifically, changing how they operate to mimic the TikTok experience in some ways. I mean, you're seeing videos from people that are just suggested for you but are certainly not your followers. There's also we're hearing about RedNote, people turning to that. Have you, have you experienced that platform yet?

KK: Yeah, I'm on RedNote. I find it challenging because it doesn't push out the videos, I think, the same amount as TikTok does. A lot of people are comparing RedNote to Instagram, rather than TikTok. So, I don't know how RedNote's algorithm works. It seems to be successful for some people. But I haven't, I haven't seen that yet.

NK: It doesn't feel like a long-term solution for you at this point?

KK: Not right now. But starting over from scratch doesn't feel like a long-term solution for me. [chuckling].

NK: How long have you had your business?

KK: I started in, like, May.

NK: It's hard when this, these kinds of platforms are such a vital part of our daily lives now, and how people earn income, whatever their, their field might be. But there's, there are still people and companies who have become incredibly successful through word of mouth or other ways. Can you imagine that kind of reality for, for yourself and your business at this stage?

KK: Not for my business. And I'll tell you why. There are some bridal stylists that will style celebrities for weddings or help you find your wedding dresses. Great! Mine is much more niche than that. My business is helping, like, queer people and other people find nontraditional wedding attire. And so, a lot of people don't even know that this exists. Through TikTok, I have had another, like, wedding vendor recommend me to their clients, which is great. But the, the knowledge, like, people go to photographers, people go to wedding planners to get recommendations. They go to venues to be on the recommended vendor list, to get word of mouth referrals that way. No one's reaching out to me because I am not a regular part of the wedding industry.

NK: In terms of the, the things that have brought us to this point. The concerns over national security in the United States voiced by the Biden administration, others, as well as Congress, and, of course, the Supreme Court today pointing to those national security concerns, the potential for the Chinese government to access user data and to manipulate content. That's the justification they're giving for, for upholding this decision. Do those things concern you at all? Is that not a good enough reason to take this action?

KK: I don't think so. I mean, yes, in theory. But given the world that we're in, absolutely not. The fact that Meta can exist without regulation. And as soon as TikTok comes in, owned by a company in a different country, that, all of a sudden, that's not okay. That it's okay for you to be in the United States and violate our privacy. But it's not when you're from a different country, I think, is really hypocritical. So, at this point in time, no, it's not a justification. But if we had a GDPR like the European Union does, if we had some level of data privacy where TikTok was crossing a line that other companies don't cross, maybe. But we're not there.

NK: The head of TikTok, I believe, is going to be at the inauguration, the Trump inauguration on Monday, as are other tech leaders, including Zuckerberg. Does that signal to you any reason to hope?

KK: That's not the signal for hope for me. I think I read an article about how the Trump administration might just not enforce the ban, which I think gives me a little bit more hope. I don't think making TikTok sell its company to an American company gives me hope because I think that sets a really bad precedent for the future. But I do have a little bit of hope that the CEO of Bytedance is showing up to the inauguration to show that they're working together because that might mean the enforcement won't go through.

NK: So what is your plan, Kati, for Sunday and Monday if things don't go the way you want them to?

KK: So, I'm just going to operate as normal until things start glitching and I can't do it anymore. But I don't know if my business really has a future outside of this app, which is really not good to put all my eggs in one basket. But it is the place I'm at.

NK: Well, Kati, I appreciate your time. Take care.

KK: Thank you.

CH: Kati Kons is a queer wedding stylist. We reached her in Turin, Italy.

[opera music]

Creole Opera

Guest: Givonna Joseph

CH: That's an aria that was written in 1887 -- and it still hasn't had its world premiere. It was composed by freeborn Creole musician, Edmond Dédé in Bordeaux. And now -- 138 years later -- it's about to debut at Washington, D.C.'s Lincoln Theatre. That's thanks in large part to the efforts of Givonna Joseph. Ms. Joseph is the founder and artistic director of New Orleans based OperaCréole. And she first got her hands on the manuscript for Mr. Dédé's "Morgiane" back in 2012. We reached Givonna Joseph today in Washington.

NK: Givonna, that, that moment [chuckling] more than a decade ago when you received that digital copy of this opera from an archivist, do you remember that moment?

GIVONNA JOSEPH: Oh yeah, I definitely remember that moment. You know, just, just excitement, and just so much truth coming to life. You know, that kind of feeling. But I definitely remember I was so excited to receive it, and feeling so compelled to, to make this my mission. Because of all the things that I didn't know as a child. And I was still trying to be an opera singer. And hearing people say, you know, we don't really do that. And it was just exciting.

NK: And who were the people telling you we don't really do this?

GJ: Just, you know, just in general, you know, not my, not my family, but, you know, people in general, Black folks who didn't know their history, would just say, well, you know, we don't really do that. And they didn't know.

NK: We're not part of opera or that's not our world.

GJ: Right. Right. And that's, and, of course, that's the way things have been communicated.

NK: But, you knew, you knew, you knew differently. You knew better.

NK: Five hundred and fifty pages handwritten, as I understand it. It must have been emotional.

GJ: Yes. Oh absolutely. Patrick Quigley, the artistic director-designate for our partner Opera Lafayette, that's based here in Washington, D.C., we were there, and we were both just, you know, in tears. Because we've been working a year-and-a-half on this from our digital copy, taking all of those notes and putting them individually into a computer.

NK: Yeah.

GJ: To come up with vocal scores and come up with orchestral scores. And it was just, just really great to see it.

NK: As you learned more about Edmond Dédé, his history, his work, what aspects of that life struck you the most?

GJ: The idea of you, when you say a person is a free person of colour. He was born free in 1827. His family had come from Saint-Domingue, as we know now as Haiti. And at that time in Louisiana history, if you came into the territory as a free person, you remained a free person. So, he was born free. But it had limitations. And what is outstanding to me is he took best advantage of what was possible within those limitations. The idea of I'm going to be a classical composer, and nothing's going to stop me, you know? That by itself is incredible. And then, he went on to France and had some of the great French teachers there.

NK: He preferred France. Did he come back to Louisiana at all?

GJ: He came back once in 1893. But in 1893, we were really heavily in Jim Crow, you know? We had a wonderful limited time during Reconstruction where we had integration in public spaces. And then, things changed and the Jim Crow laws came down. And so, he came back and essentially found New Orleans to be worse than when he left it. So, he vowed not to come back again.

NK: We don't want to give too much of the story of the opera away, but how does his life and that lived experience find its way into this piece?

GJ: Well, he, you know, he was a serious composer. His orchestral composing is, is amazing. But he also had a sense of humour. And so, it's a dark comedy, but it's also kind of an example of his passion against subjugation. And so, Morgiane was the wife of the Sultan of East Bahan, which is Persia, which is modern day Iran. And she escapes after she has a child because he was a tyrant. And then later, when he abducts a young woman from her wedding or his harem, Morgiane and her family members all said absolutely not, and crossed Arabia into Persia to fight to get her daughter back.

NK: February 3rd. Is that circled on your calendar?

GJ: [warm laughter]Absolutely. February 3rd in Washington D.C. is the full work. Before that, January 23rd, in New Orleans, we're doing some excerpts of it there to make a homecoming for him coming home. And it's perfectly the high point of our mission in OperaCréole, which I founded with my daughter Aria Mason back in 2011. This is not the first real work that we've uncovered or essentially lost work that we've uncovered. But this has been at the highest point for us because, as far as research shows, this opera is the oldest existing opera by an American-born Black composer, which is a great feather in New Orleans' cap. And that, really, to bring him into everyone's consciousness means a whole lot, a whole lot for us.

NK: Giovanna, a pleasure speaking with you. I hope I get to hear it someday or see it performed. Thank you.

GJ: So much. Bye-bye.

CH: Givonna Joseph is the founder and artistic director of the New Orleans-based company, OperaCréole. We reached her in Washington, D.C.

[jaunty instrumental]

Barefoot Lego Sprint

Guest: Gabrielle Wall

CH: Twenty-four-point-seven-five seconds. That's how long it took Gabrielle Wall to run 100 metres. Yeah, it really doesn't sound like an especially impressive feat -- until you consider Ms. Wall's feet. And the cruelly pointy terrain they had to negotiate over that 100 metres. Ms. Wall ran that sprint over thousands of pieces of Lego. And she did it barefoot. We reached Gabrielle Wall in Christchurch, New Zealand.

NK: Gabrielle, what did the first and last steps of this sprint feel like?

GABRIELLE WALL: Oh, [laughing]I think the first steps, I was, it still didn't feel quite real. [NK chuckles] So, you know, there'd been a big build-up. And then, finally, I got the big explosion for the go signal and hit the Lego. So, I think at that stage, it didn't feel quite real. But, certainly, by the last couple of steps, it was really hurting. I was looking for the finish line.

NK: I think you described it as the worst massage of your life.

GW: I did! [NK chuckling] It was like you had someone with sort of textured gardening gloves or something like that, giving you a really deep foot massage.

NK: You've had a couple of days to recover. How are your feet doing?

GW: They're looking a lot prettier than they were. Though, I have to say, that's not saying much. [NK chuckles] They were not looking nice at all. They're definitely improving. I can, I can see, see them being beautiful once again. [laughing].

NK: Okay. Well, that's good. That must be a relief. What kind of damage was done? It was only, it was less than 25 seconds.

GW: I actually had most of the damage was done during the training. So, I had quite a lot of blistering and calluses from the training. There was only one decent cut from the actual run itself, so a few minor cuts and scrapes.

NK: And what did that rigorous training regime involve?

GW: I've been barefoot since around November last year.

NK: Everywhere? Barefoot everywhere?

GW: Pretty much everywhere. And this was a very important work meeting.

NK: Oh no! [laughing]

GW: But I did the Christmas party season barefoot. I did my brother's wedding barefoot. [NK chuckles] Unfortunately, his wedding was Lego themed, so I felt like I was kind of on brand.

NK: Okay. Lego is big in your family. I appreciate that.

GW: Apparently so. Yeah, accidentally so. But, and I also had a blow-up kids pool in my garage that was filled with training Lego. So, I would go in there and I would stomp around on that. I liked to kind of close my eyes and pretend I was stomping on grapes to make wine or something like that instead.

NK: [chuckling] Not quite the same. Not quite the same.

GW: No! [laughing].

NK: Why? Why do this, Gabrielle?

GW: [both chuckle] I had a health scare a couple of years ago, and reevaluated my bucket list as a result. And decided that something that would be really fun to do as a project with my kids would be to set a Guinness World Record. So, came up with this. But when the guidelines came through, you weren't actually allowed to attempt it under the age of 18.

NK: Right.

GW: So, it fell, fell on me, the responsibility. My son was my coach. My daughter was my manager. And my son tells me that when he turns 18 in five years, he's going to be coming for my record.

NK: Oh, a competitive family! [GW laughs] I like that. I saw, I saw the photographs of them supporting you after your run. They looked pretty proud. Are they?

GW: They were pretty proud. It was equal measures, my mother's amazing. My mother's a bit crazy. [both laughing].

NK: I mean, that's all right. That's not so bad.

GW: Which would be the same as most of my friends. [both chuckle]

NK: Anyone who stepped on Lego accidentally in their house can understand the sharp shooting pain and the rage [GW laughs] that you feel in that moment. And then, the moments it takes for that to dissipate. But I feel like if you know you're going to run on them, it's not as painful. Am I wrong?

GW: It's definitely less painful. Probably the important thing for me is the actual preparation of the track. So, we probably spent an hour going over the 100 metres, removing any really sharp bits. So, there are a couple of palm tree leaves that found their way in there. Those really hurt. Relaxing to lie under, not relaxing to step on. And a few rocket ship noses, they had to come out. So, as long as it's regular-shaped bricks, and you're anticipating it, you know, every parent who stepped on one is, is a world champion.

NK: [laughing] Well put. I watched the video. This was a running track. There were several videographers there capturing every angle. Your kids were there, as we mentioned. There was a doctor on hand to make sure you had not done anything to your feet or were wearing anything that could, you know, nullify any record you set, right?

GW: Yes, that's correct. So, one of the guidelines from the Guinness World Records was that a doctor, and to speak to my fate, to check that there were no oils or coverings or anything like that. So she had a good look, and she actually swabbed them with alcohol to be sure.

NK: [chuckling] That's very professional, all of this record, record setting business.

GW: It's very exciting. [laughing].

NK: But how, and along the track, I mean, it's an array of colours and pieces, but was there a method to what is laid out there and how?

GW: I don't know that there was a particular method. It used over 300 kilograms of Lego. So, I was really lucky that the Lego education charity Imagination Station are the same kind of crazy that I am. Because when I talked to them and said, hey, I've got this idea, they went we're in! We'll bring it. So, they brought an entire van full of Lego, and we just dumped it at intervals and then used a leaf blower to get it all in position. [laughing]

NK: You mentioned your son is already planning to come for your record when he turns 18. Guinness, of course, needs to still certify your attempt. We're waiting on those important official results, but others likely want to come for your title. Is this something you're going to repeat? You want to defend your title or are you done?

GW: I think I'm one and done. [NK chuckles] I strategically wanted to go for something that does have a high barrier to entry. You know, I'm extremely lucky to partner with someone that could provide 300 kilograms of Lego. Because I can tell you, as a parent, you feel like you've got a lot of it in your living room. It's nothing compared to seeing an entire van full of it. So, someone, before they can come for my record, they'll have to get their hands on the, on the goods.

NK: You thought this through, Gabrielle. You're smart. Smart. [GW laughs] Has your relationship with Lego changed now? I mean, do you still sit down to, to build something, or, I mean, like you said, you never want to see a brick again. Is it banished from your home now?

GW: I was really happy to get rid of my kiddy pool of training Lego. [NK chuckles] I think it'll be a couple of weeks before I can sit down and enjoy building again with my kids without a bit of a, a bit of a shudder.

NK: That's fair. Gabrielle, a pleasure speaking with you. Congratulations.

GW: Thank you ever so much. I enjoyed it.

CH: Gabrielle Wall tried to establish the first Guinness World Record for running a 100-metre sprint on Lego, barefoot. She's in Christchurch, New Zealand.

[electronic]

Obit Cherry Blossoms

CH: The year was 1970-something -- and Canadians were grooving to this far-out commercial about a candy that was a total gas, dug by...some.

SOUNDCLIP

[jaunty ad music]

SINGERS: [singing high-pitched] Cherry, Cherry Blossoms. Well, it's thick chocolate on the outside. Mmmmm, mmmmm, mmmm. And it's creamy on the inside. Mmmmm, mmmmm, mmmm. When you get to the centre, it's a very special centre. It's a cherry special peanut crunchy chocolate-coated creamy centre. Cherry, cherry Blossom.

CH: [NK laughs] A commercial in which a disembodied mouth with wings eats the confection known as the "Cherry Blossom" -- a neon-red maraschino cherry, drowning in a glutinous opalescent fluid, within a thick carapace of chocolate. The Cherry Blossom's history extends back to 1890 -- the invention of a real-life Willy Wonka, but less dangerously whimsical, named Walter M. Lowney. And, at the time, Mr. Lowney's innovative bonbon was surely the subject of much excited chin-wagging in the parlours and salons. And not only was the name of this thrilling new candy on everyone's lips, the candy itself was going between everyone's lips! But a cherry cannot stay fresh forever, even if preserved in brine solution and soaked in red food dye and sugar syrup, as the old expression goes. Times changed, even if the Cherry Blossom never did. And despite its reliable gooeyness -- and its eye-catching bright yellow packaging, which looks vaguely medical and vaguely pornographic -- the culture moved on. And now, Hershey's Canada, which took over the brand, has announced that it is discontinuing the Cherry Blossom. Do you have a tender story about the Cherry Blossom? [NK laughs] How you loved it? Or had one once and thought it was fine? Let us know: call Talkback at 416-205-5687, or email us at aih@cbc.ca. We'll share your memories on the program. And don't be afraid to cry: we know parting is such cloying, syrupy sorrow.

[chillhop]

Part 2: L.A. Fires: Homelessness, Red Dye Ban

L.A. Fires: Homelessness

Guest: Sarah Hoppmeyer

CH: Los Angeles County was just starting to get a handle on homelessness. And now, the wildfires might undo that progress. According to an annual count from the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority, the county's homeless population declined slightly in 2024 -- the first decrease in seven years. But now, the fires have displaced tens of thousands of people -- who have nowhere to go but into housing support. Sarah Hoppmeyer works at a nonprofit that finds housing and social services for homeless people in the Los Angeles area. We reached her in Pasadena.

NK: Sarah, what are you hearing from your clients, from the people you work with who've been impacted?

SARAH HOPPMEYER: Yeah. So, you know, a lot of what I'm hearing from the folks that we're, we're talking to right now is just a lot of, a lot of disorientation, fear, concern about, you know, many of them were recently housed, just, you know, moved off from, they've been in the streets or in interim housing, just recently got house, and thought they had lost that housing and become homeless again. So, that was very traumatizing, very disorienting. You know, I talked with one family last Friday at one of our family shelters that we had to evacuate. I was meeting with some of them. And, you know, one of them looked at me and said, I'm already homeless. Now, you're telling me I'm homeless again? So, it's a lot of that. We also have a lot of participants who we know, you know, are going to be able to return home if they haven't already. But they're at children's daycares, schools, their jobs have burned down. And so now, even if they have a roof over their head, you know, potentially for the first time in quite a while, they're unsure how they're going to be able to contribute to their rental portions because they're unsure what the future is going to look like. And some people are already falling behind.

NK: What is it like for you and your colleagues, Sarah, to have those conversations and hear someone who you thought was, you know, going to be in a better phase of their life say, I'm already homeless. And now, I'm homeless again.

SH: It's, it's devastating. You know, our, what we exist to do is to help folks get back into homes. And to now see so many folks in our community, you know, some folks who, you know, we're not even necessarily serving, but are community members experiencing that lack of home is just devastating to see. I would say, you know, when this first started, probably about a third of our staff were impacted in some way, either because they had been evacuated themselves, you know, or a few of them, unfortunately, we've learned, did lose their homes. And not just our staff, our board, some of our board members, some of our donors. And so, we, we were working at, you know, limited, stretched capacity. And I had staff here, you know, providing support to the community who they themselves didn't know if they had a home to return to. And now, you know, they're trying to support other folks who are in a similar situation. And it's just been very disorienting, and, and just heartbreaking.

NK: And how about you personally?

SH: Where I live, we were, stayed outside of the fire, the fire evacuation zones. So, we're very fortunate. But, you know, myself, family members oftentimes came close to evacuation zones. They were constantly moving because with the winds, the fires were constantly moving.

NK: Right.

SH: So, at one point, you would think, okay, we're safe. The next minute, all of a sudden, you're getting, you know, warning, evacuation warnings on your phone. And so, it was like that. It was pretty touch and go for a few, a few days there where several of us were in the field trying to support, you know, our, our, our clients and our community. And then, also getting warning evacuation zones on our phone and trying to call the family members saying, hey, you know, do we need to have, whoever is at home needs to be packing because we might need to get home quickly and evacuate. And so, that was just a very stressful time for, you know, all of our staff just constantly being on edge, unsure if it was going to impact one of us next.

NK: You were able to get a team into the shelter that is at the Pasadena Convention Center right now. It's become a hub for people who are displaced. And when you were there, what kind of things were people telling you about, about what they need?

SH: Yeah. So, the first thing I'm noticing is that, you know, we're talking to people, so many people are just disoriented. And so many people just said, I don't, I don't know what I need. I think what's hard is that so many the folks who are impacted just don't know what they need right now. And so many folks are all over L.A. County or in surrounding counties because they, because of the air quality, a lot of them just didn't even necessarily evacuate other parts of Pasadena or Altadena. I mean, they, they got out of the county. And so, I think what we're going to, what we're anticipating is that over the next few weeks and months that people start to come back, they're going to probably have very specific needs, and we're just hoping that we still have the same level of support to meet those needs as, you know, as we're receiving right now within the first week.

NK: Part of the other reason this is so difficult for, for people there is that Los Angeles was, was getting to a place that was better in terms of homelessness than it had been in years and years. So, that's devastating for people, obviously. I can only imagine doing the work that, that you do. But how do you now make up, make up what has been lost in that sense? Because, you know, before, I guess it was bureaucracy, and changing mindsets, and getting the city funding and all of that, that sort of thing, those sort of things in place. But now, you have this kind of a disaster. So, where do you begin?

SH: Yeah. So, right now, we're, we're just in an assessment phase, trying to figure, figure out what folks are needing. We, we definitely we're getting to, you know, point of seeing those homeless count numbers stabilizing, which was really encouraging. But that doesn't mean that our resources, you know, our resources have still been stretched and are at capacity. So, that's one of the things we're discussing right now is how do we ensure that we can meet this, what we anticipate will be a growing need while also ensuring that we continue to serve the folks who were formerly unhoused prior to this disaster who still need our services?

NK: Could this crisis, Sarah, do you think, help the situation in that it will change the thinking that you've seen and the support you've seen from official levels?

SH: Yeah. So, I think what I loved about working in Los Angeles County is, and we saw this during the pandemic, is that, you know, this is a place where when we experience, you know, significant events that, you know, impact large numbers of people, we watch the, you know, local officials, community members, you know, and our, our other service providers doing this work come together and try to be really strategic in how we can address the need. So, I would anticipate that there will be, you know, other resources that have come out of this because of our ability to kind of work together to, to strategize and how to do things a little bit differently.

NK: Sarah, I really appreciate your time. Thanks for this.

SH: Yeah, definitely. Thank you.

CH: Sarah Hoppmeyer is the chief program officer at Union Station Homeless Services. We reached her in Pasadena.

[bright piano]

Booing Danielle Collins

CH: Danielle Collins says she's too busy cashing her cheque to focus on the hate. Yesterday, the American tennis player beat Australian favourite Destanee Aiava in the second round of the Australian Open. And the fans were not impressed.

SOUNDCLIP

[thwack of tennis rackets, intimidating yells…of tennis]

ANNOUNCER: The big weapon has completed the deal on match point. A hammered backhand, [booing] and she’s feeding into the crowd here, which won’t be taken to well in these parts. But the brave run of Destanee Aiava has come to an end at the hands of a 2022 finalist here at Melbourne Park, Danielle Collins.

CH: The sound of Australian fans booing American tennis player Danielle Collins. What you can't see is Ms. Collins responding to the crowd by cupping her ear, smacking her buttocks -- and blowing kisses. And that pretty much sums up how she felt about the response.

SOUNDCLIP

DANIELLE COLLINS: Oh, I loved it. Like, you know, I've been doing this my whole life. And I love playing in a crowd that has energy, regardless of what side they're on. And I'm somebody too, like, you know, it kind of just, like, motivates me even more. So, it's kind of a good thing, especially when I'm not playing that well. So, I think it really helped me in the end. And just helped me concentrate more and challenged me at times. And just, yeah, pushed me kind of through the finish line. I was really happy, too. Like, in the end, when I finally got momentum, I'm like, well, I'm going to be out here for 2.5 hours, and putting up with all these people. I might as well just take the bigger paycheque, right? And I was super happy to do that. And one of the greatest things about being a professional athlete is the people that don't like you, and the people that hate you, they actually pay your bills. It's kind of a cool concept. And, you know, obviously my professional career is not going to last forever. And so, I just remind myself every day, like, when I have that kind of stuff, like, they're paying my bills. Like, every person that's bought a ticket to come out here and heckle me or, you know, do what they do. Like, it's all going towards the Danielle Collins fund. So, like, yeah, bring it on. I love it. Yeah, so me and my group of girlfriends, we love a five-star vacation. So, I can guarantee you that cheque is going to go towards our next five-star trip, hopefully to the Bahamas. We like boats. We like big boats. We like yachts. So yeah, we'll post about it and let you guys know how it goes.

CH: That was U.S. tennis player Danielle Collins speaking to reporters after beating Australian player Destanee Aiava in the second round of the Australian Open.

[chillhop house tour music]

Red Dye Ban

Guest: Joe Schwarcz

CH: Candy. Sprinkles. Sausages. Cotton candy. If you've been avoiding "Red Dye Number Three," you've probably been most worried about the ingredients in foods like that. But in the U.S., you won't have to worry anymore. This week, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration imposed a ban on Red Dye Number Three in the American food supply. It will come into effect in 2027, and it follows a previous ban in the US on the use of that dye in cosmetics. But Health Canada doesn't consider it to pose a serious health risk. Joe Schwarcz is the director of McGill University's Office for Science and Society. We reached him in Montreal.

NK: Professor, as you well know, the United States is not the first country to fully ban Red Dye Number Three. Do you think Canada should follow suit?

JOE SCHWARCZ: I don't think Canada should follow suit based on any toxicity concern. But on the other hand, I do not favour food dyes because they have no nutritional value. They only serve a cosmetic purpose. And they generally attract people to eat foods that are of questionable nutritional quality. But the Red Dye Number Three story, which really has captivated the media in the last couple of days with a focus on, on the deadly nature of this dye, you know, and you'd get the impression that the FDA removing this dye from the market has taken this huge, heavy yoke off the necks of Americans. I think that is actually misleading.

NK: Let's clear it up for listeners.

JS: Yeah.

NK: Because Health Canada says it does not consider this dye to pose a serious health risk. People might hear that and go, well, what? Does the FDA know something that Canadians don't?

JS: The fact is that the, the way that food additives are governed in United States is different from the way that we govern them here. And this whole banning of the red dye is not because some new information has come to light about toxicity. This is a story that has been emerging for, for decades with a lot of legal wrangling behind it. And the reason for that is that there's an amendment in the U.S. to the 1938 Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, known as The Delaney Clause, which says that any substance that in any amount, in any animal, has been shown to cause any cancer must not be purposely put into the food supply. This is what we call a hazard analysis, which does not take into account the means of exposure and the extent of exposure, which I think is the real way to evaluate risk. And that's what we do here in Canada. And the decision that Health Canada has arrived at, which I think is the correct decision, is that our exposure to these dyes is so trivial that it does not represent a risk. You know, when we take a look at the evidence for the red dye, it is very, very scant.

NK: And what evidence are they using? We know they looked at rats.

JS: The evidence that they're using dates back to the 1980s. And the rats were fed up to four per cent of their daily diet of Red Dye Number Three, or erythromycin, which is the chemical name for it. That's a huge amount. That is hundreds of times more than any human would ever be exposed to, even if they are gorging on, on coloured foods. There's also the question of whether or not the mechanism that caused the thyroid cancer in the male rats is operative in humans? And there's good evidence that, actually, the physiology of the rat is different from what happens in humans. So, there is absolutely no evidence that this causes cancer in, in people. I also have no concern about it when the sort of the, the bloggers who are into fear-mongering tell us that the dye is made from petroleum and that's why we should avoid it. All of that being said, I think that it is a good idea to avoid foods that contain dyes, whether it be Red Dye Number Three, Red Dye Number 40 or a cochineal red. But the fact is that these colourants are used in foods of poor nutritional quality. And, you know, these are your, your Skittles, and your, your candy bars, and your coloured gelatins, you know? So, these are not things that, that we need. So, what is the problem here with these foods is not that they contain the dye, but they are poor nutritionally. They contain too much fat, too much salt, too much sugar, and not enough fibre. That's the real problem with these foods.

NK: You mentioned bloggers. There's the wellness industry. It is a very lucrative industry as well. And there are good players and players that are, that are not as good. And there is, there are people who disseminate information that I suspect you would disagree with. Do you worry, though, when there, when there are stories like this that it creates mistrust?

JS: You know, the story that, that many of the headlines said, finally, after 30 years this dangerous substance is banned. I mean, there are many nuances of that story that just is an incorrect, you know, headline. And, yes, I am very concerned, especially seeing what is going on in the U.S. with the, the prospect of Robert Kennedy being head of NIH. I mean, this is a truly frightening thing. He is, of course, an anti-vaxxer. He has strange views on stem cell therapies and on many, many other things. He has no scientific background whatsoever. And it is really potentially dangerous. He wants to control processed foods. I think that's a positive thing. But that does not mean that he should be given a free ride because of all the other nonsensical things that he says.

NK: What's your advice to listeners, Professor, who are online? You know, a lot of people are just trying to do the right thing and looking for information, and they're not they're not, they're able to find it. They're not getting it. They, they may not have a health care provider. And so, that's where these, these bloggers and these sites come in.

JS: Right. Well, you know, I've been in this business for many, many years. And I will agree that, that there's confusion among the public because they are badgered by information from, you know, every corner. And that some of the pseudoscience sounds very, very believable. So, who do you believe? I think that the average person does not have access to the mainline journals, and generally does not have the background to be really able to interpret the information. So, one has to know who is believable and who is not. And as a general rule, if someone is trying to sell you something, they are not reliable.

NK: Professor Schwartz, I'm glad we could speak. Thank you.

JS: Thank you very much.

CH: Joe Schwarcz is the director of McGill University's Office for Science and Society. We reached him in Montreal.

[lo-fi]

Joan Plowright Obit

CH: Joan Plowright was many things. First and foremost, an actor. But also, an advocate for the theatre. Laurence Olivier's wife of nearly 30 years. And a close friend and colleague of fellow Dames Maggie Smith and Judi Dench. Ms. Plowright died yesterday at the age of 95. In its obituary, Variety described her as, quote, "perhaps the greatest Anglophone actor of the 20th century." Unquote. And the Washington Post praised her "dazzling versatility." In 1988 she talked about that versatility with Vicki Gabereau on the CBC -- and about the challenge of moving from film acting back to the daily -- or nightly -- grind of the stage.

SOUNDCLIP

JOAN PLOWRIGHT: Yes, the theater is a very different business. Yes, that exhaustion can creep in if you are not careful, through boredom and the kind of mechanical delivery night after night. But mainly, boredom, and restlessness, and impatience. But if you actually take the trouble to recreate every night, because every audience is different, and the thing about the live theatre, the live show, is that there is no question, but there is a vibration between people. There is none between a screen and people. But there is between an audience and an actor. A very strong, strong vibe, which is inspiring, which is indifferent, which is different every night, and which you ought to be able to be excited about every night. Because it can shift your performance slightly or even more than slightly every night.

VICKI GABEREAU: And there is such a thing as a jumped-up audience and a tired audience, too, I'm sure. Can you feel it before you go on or the minute you go on?

JP: Every audience has an identity. You know it within five minutes. And it is very strange because it becomes a corporate identity. And yet, there are, what, 1,000 individuals there who've just chosen that particular Wednesday night. It's a strange, mysterious business, but that's the magic of the theatre.

VG: Well, that's the fun of the whole thing, isn't it?

JP: Yes.

VG: But it's a whole different game when you're the director.

JP: Oh yes.

VG: Oh yes.

JP: Oh yes.

VG: [laughing] What is the reaction when you're the director on opening night, and you have spent all these weeks, perhaps, perhaps day and night, rehearsing these actors. And then, you have to go and sit in the front. I take it you do. Some directors won't go for opening night. Jonathan Miller said he won't go, ever.

JP: I don't sit. I pace about at the back. It is one of the most appalling sensations I have ever had in my life, actually. [both laugh] I, I, I long to be up there on the stage, whatever goes wrong. I wouldn't mind if the scenery fell down because, as an actress, I would know how to cope with it. As a director, because I haven't been schooled in it all my life, I am just in sheer terror. There is absolutely nothing I can do once the curtain has gone up. The scenery may not change as it should. People come on late. They are obviously not geared up to the emotional charge they were at the last rehearsal. Everything is slightly different from what you had hoped. Some things, of course, are slightly better, but you may have left the building by the time they occur. [both laugh].

CH: The late Joan Plowright, speaking with Vicki Gabereau on CBC in 1988. Ms. Plowright died yesterday. She was 95 years old.

[folk]

Part 3: Manitoba Homelessness Plan, Tbay Citizenship Ceremony

Manitoba Homelessness Plan

Guest: Tessa Blaikie Whitecloud

CH: Manitoba intends to end chronic homelessness in six years -- and it has released a new strategy to that end. Premier Wab Kinew says it's a turning point. But some advocates aren't feeling so optimistic. The plan is called "Your Way Home." It details how, starting in February, the province and the city of Winnipeg plan to decommission encampments one-by-one, and move people into housing over a 30-day period. Once the encampment sites are clear, the province says it will send in clean-up teams, and monitor the sites with foot patrols so they are safe for Manitobans to use. Tessa Blaikie Whitecloud is the CEO of Siloam Mission; she's been hired to oversee this work. We reached her in Winnipeg.

NK: Tessa, when you were approached for this role, what did they say to convince you to join on?

TESSA BLAIKIE WHITECLOUD: So, it was an interesting meeting. I actually was coming to say, here's everything I wish the government was doing to address homelessness. Here are the things that we see from the outside as gaps within government systems that are creating homelessness or not helping us be solutions-focused. And then, the conversation with Premier Kinew was, you seem to really have your head wrapped around this. We need somebody in government driving that change. Would you be willing to join the government to do that? It wasn't what I was expecting, but I think that it exemplifies this government's approach. That they want to make sure that chronic homelessness ends in our province. That they want to ensure that people are well cared for, both in the now as we do that longer term systems change, and that they want to make sure that, you know, somebody who understands, I've been working in the sector over a decade, I am so honoured by the trust and the collaboration with sector partners. And I'm going to take that to government and ensure that the government continues and, you know, invests even more in collaborating with the sector that's doing the work on the ground.

NK: In terms of the encampments themselves, Tessa, How many are there right now?

TBW: So, we estimate that across the province of Manitoba, there's 700 people living in encampments. The number of encampments specifically, obviously, fluctuates. And given that it's winter right now, the number is probably lower than it will be come the spring. And so, it is about going from encampment to encampment with those outreach teams that have those relationships to say what makes sense for housing for you? And how do we make that housing available?

NK: In the announcement, you talk about having a 30-day time span from getting someone out of an encampment into housing, in a period of 30 days. Is that per person or is that per encampment? When does that clock start?

TBW: Yeah. So, that's by encampment. And so, it's after a site has been identified that we would kind of start that 30 days. And that's really saying that the government wants to be held accountable to having an appropriate housing option available to somebody in an encampment within 30 days. As well as the adequate resources through the announced navigation centre that's going to come online to say we're going to work on expediting folks' ID. We're going to work on expediting access to primary care. Like, what are the barriers? You know, and from a casework perspective here at Siloam Mission, we're often working through those barriers. But this is going to be a way for those barriers to be expedited so we can move somebody into housing successfully within 30 days. When we talk about homelessness, you know, homelessness net zero is really having nobody experience homelessness for more than 90 days. And we are recognizing that folks in encampments typically have been experiencing homelessness for way longer than that. And so, if we want to get to best practice, we need to be focusing on that population who, you know, has been literally left out in the cold. And working on solutions with them rapidly.

NK: Others who work in this realm, you know, they have questions and concerns in some cases. And one is a question of what happens when, even after all of those one-on-one conversations that someone is, is not ready or willing to leave an encampment in that 30-day time period, what happens then?

TBW: I think what's really important here is that it's about making sure that the adequate housing is online first. And so, so many folks that I've had the privilege of interacting with in encampments through the role I currently hold, talk about why would I even try to leave? There's nowhere to go. And so, you know, it's about making sure that people have that opportunity to see the housing, to see the supports that will be there for them to thrive in that housing, to have agency over where that housing is going to be for them, to have choices. And so, right now, folks living in encampments who don't want to go, so to speak, a big part of that is because there's nowhere for them to go. And that's why this plan starts with housing as that very first point. And so, we're starting with a commitment of 300 units. But obviously, that's going to grow when we talk about knowing that there's already 700 people experiencing an unsheltered life in our province. And so, it will be about how do we get a unit online, solved by encampment by encampment, get more units online? What does that look like?

NK: And if they, if they absolutely refuse to leave, what's the, the plan you have?

TBW: I think it depends on what's happening for that individual. So, it's going to need to be a person-centred response. So, is the person, you know, not willing to leave the encampment because they have a street family, and we need to talk about moving the whole street family together. And, you know, the premier talked about that. That it's, it's not a tent-by-tent approach, and that was a learning curve for him. It's an encampment-by-encampment approach. Are they not willing to leave because there's serious mental health issues that are not addressed for them? You know, I know some vets who have a really hard time sleeping inside because of PTSD symptoms. And so, okay, well, how do we connect them with the appropriate care to address those symptoms? So, it is about a person-centred solution for each individual as well as that encampment approach by encampment.

NK: You mentioned the acquisition to come of 300 new housing units. But there's also a concern from some that, that this plan involves convincing people who are living in Manitoba Housing units to move into the rental market. And those who are concerned are saying this is a problematic approach. What would you say to those who have that concern?

TBW: So, one piece of it is, obviously, we need to ensure that Manitoba Housing residents who are moving out of Manitoba Housing have adequate supports to thrive in the rental market, have follow up and supports if, you know, something does go awry in the future. But there's a lot of people in Manitoba Housing who are asking for a way out. So, creating opportunity for that to make sense for them, I think, is actually really important. And the second piece of it is, is that the government is recognizing that, you know, the folks who are the most marginalized needs to be who they take care of first and foremost from a housing supply strategy. And so, it is about building housing first in Manitoba Housing. And so, that means that there's going to be supports in the housing that people are moving into. And supports to make sure that things go well for them, so even if we have residents, say, coming out of encampments or coming out of shelters to come alongside residents already in Manitoba Housing, it is going to come with an increased level of staffing and an increased level of supports for those individuals to do well in that housing.

NK: Six years is the goal. Is it a realistic one, ending this, this situation in your problems?

TBW: So, the goal is to end chronic homelessness within, by 2031. And I do think that that is realistic because this government has committed to a whole of government approach. A one Manitoba model where we're looking across all departments to say what changes need to happen to reduce the inflow into homelessness? And how do we solve homelessness for those experiencing it today? I don't think it's going to be easy. I think it's going to be very hard work. Luckily, we have a wonderful sector in Winnipeg, in Thompson, in Dauphin, and all parts of Manitoba. I've had the privilege of interacting with some of them. I'm looking forward to interacting with more of them. This is a sector who cares, who's already doing the hard work, and now, is going to have me and the provincial government coming alongside them to take down the barriers to solve homelessness.

NK: Tessa, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

TBW: Thank you.

CH: Tessa Blaikie Whitecloud is the premier of Manitoba's new senior advisor on ending chronic homelessness. We reached her in Winnipeg.

[international]

FOA: NL Snowmageddon

CH: Five years ago today, Newfoundland and Labrador was clobbered by the mother of all snowstorms, which was dubbed "Snowmageddon." Almost 100 centimetres of snow buried St. John's, while hurricane-strength winds battered the island. The city declared a state of emergency, and most services were shut down. At the time, former As It Happens host Carol Off spoke with Joe White, a cab driver in St. John's.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Now, this is an emergency, right? So, can you describe for people we've seen the video. We've seen the pictures. It doesn't, I mean, you just can't fathom what's happening right now on your part on the Avalon Peninsula. Just describe what it's like outside your door.

JW: Well, you know, and a northeast wind in St. John's will cut you right to the bone. The meteorologists have got to come down here and stand up in it and then they'll understand just three times today, I got my snow gear in the dryer again. Because the humidity that's in this stuff is just, it soaks you right to the bone.

CO: When was the last time you didn't go out in your cab because of the weather?

JW: Never. [laughing] I've been into the taxi industry since 1979. I've gone through more cars than most people go through shoes. And the weather has never, ever prevented me from going to work. But when I got up this morning, and it started to snow before I left, and I was listening to the news and stuff, my problem is I got to drive 10 kilometres to get to St. John's to go to work. And I'm driving through like, you know, fields, open fields, you know, pastoral land and stuff like that. And when you get 100 kilometre winds with blowing snow, I mean, visibility is zero.

JW: I was concerned about getting home. I wasn't concerned about getting out.

CO: So, what makes you so convinced that you're going to get out to work tomorrow?

JW: I'm just persistent. [CO laughs] I'm going to work tomorrow morning. I don't know what time it's going to be. [chuckling] But I'll be out to work tomorrow morning, I can guarantee you.

CO: What we're hearing from the police and the authorities are saying just do not go out there today. But are people doing that anyways? You said that you saw some pickup trucks. People are actually out on the road?

JW: No, I saw one pickup truck. That was earlier, not, let's say, a few hours ago. I haven't seen one since. And normally, normally, because I live out in the West End, and a lot of people around here have snowmobiles. I haven't even heard one. So, I think the teenagers got the message. So, stay home. If you don't need to be out, just stay home. Stay home, make some babies, and you'll be able to remember what happened. [both laughing]

CH: From Our Archives, Joe White talking to former As It Happens host Carol Off on January 17, 2020.

[indie rock]

Kamloops Declutter Magic

CH: A magician in Kamloops is making things disappear. Which isn't super-unusual for him, of course, except that this time it's a bit different. it’s more tactile. And more home décor-oriented. Clinton W. Gray has committed to getting rid of at least one thing a day in a mission to declutter his home. He told the CBC about how the first few weeks have gone.

SOUNDCLIP

CLINTON W. GRAY: [chuckling] Once it's gone, I forget about it. It's very easy, let me put it that way. I've got probably weeks of stuff that, in the back of my mind, is going to be in the next post. In fact, it's actually made it a little difficult because I sometimes just want to go, hey, this needs to all go to the secondhand store or to the bookstore or wherever it needs to go. But I'm holding on because I need to have that item, single item, every day to post. But yeah, I've had no issues. There's just so much stuff that I look at it and think to myself, well, I'm never going to use that again.

JENIFER NORWELL: Yeah, 365 days of things sounds like a lot.

CWG: Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, today, it's, yesterday, it was DVD and CD labels. I don't have, you know, I'm never going to burn a DVD again.

JN: Do you have a DVD player?

NK: And so, how do the Zoom ceremonies compare?

CW: Well, the Zoom ceremonies, we don't get to participate in them. So, people are connecting themselves somewhere quiet, somewhere that they can see and hear. And there are specifications around it. And it's just different. You're with people that you don't necessarily know. Whereas in your own city, you might be at a ceremony with people that you do know. And your family is able to attend. And it's very different to do that online.

NK: So, what have they told you, the folks that you work with? What have they said to you about their feeling? I mean, obviously, they may not know the difference because they haven't been to an in-person one. But what have they told you?

CW: So, they said that it's, it's a little impersonal. It seems, it's nice to see the judge. It's great to recite the oath, and to see that there's still the legality and the formality of it. But you're one face on a screen. And the judge is a face on the screen. And you don't see anyone else that's there. But when others are doing their oath, you hear there are things happening in the background. And someboy's dog is barking. And someone is saying you're muted. And, you know, all of the technology for as many people as are participating in the ceremony takes a little while. So, you are sitting at the desk watching this on the camera, waiting for everything to be sorted out and waiting for your turn.

NK: Obviously, we know why this had to be the reality during the pandemic. But why are they still online?

CW: I don't know. I don't know that if it just hasn't moved back to in-person, if there are the logistics. And, you know, we're going to connect with them and see if we can't get that started up again. And see how we can how we can do it. Maybe it's been easy, right? It's been easier to do. I'm not sure.

NK: Northwestern Ontario is such a large area. Obviously, inclement weather is an issue, highway shutdowns, things like that. Do you think that, that online ceremonies help even the playing field? I mean, do you think they're good to have as an option for people?

CW: I think it's an option if you have to do a ceremony in the winter. And we usually did a spring and fall. So, we would do two per year with about 120 people at them. And that did bring in people from around the region as well. So, they would come the day before, do the test, find out if they passed, do everything that they needed as far as the paperwork goes. And the second day would be the ceremony. So, it was one trip into the city from, you know, not too far outlying, but it did encompass a lot of close communities to us. And then, if the driving was good. We'd plan around, you know, not wintertime. So, a winter one online if people are in need is, you know, makes a lot of sense. That's fine.

NK: I've had the good fortune. I don't remember mine, my initial one, citizenship ceremony, because I was a small child, but I've been to several since. Some on ships and some at schools. It is a really, really moving experience to be there. And I always encourage people to go if they can. Even if you're already a citizen, as you've said it, it can be quite emotional and moving. We know that there's a petition; you and others have been working for a few months about on this. What's your sense of things so far about getting this change to actually come?

CW: From what I've heard, it's positive that if there are enough people interested. And certainly, we're willing as an organization to work with all of our partners in the city. And then, it's quite easy to get organizations, venues, and institutions in the city to host if they have a big space. So, that's a nice thing too, is it brings the community together. MPs, MPPs, the city council, and others come to it, often make presentations to those that are receiving their citizenship. It's just like a big welcome.

NK: Is there a, is there a moment from all of those ceremonies you've been to or an interaction that stays with you? That is part of the reason why you think they need to come back.

CW: There have been a few. There have been a few where people got the opportunity during the coffee time afterwards to just tell a bit of their story. And I've been at ceremonies where people who were stateless have received citizenship, who've said, this is the first time I hold a document in my hand that shows I belong somewhere. And there have been others that have come through incredible hardships and war. And one young man said, I've never been able to really make a choice of what I did or where I lived or where I had to stay until Canada.

NK: Did you burst into tears as soon as I said that? [chuckling] Because I'm going to.

CW: I don't, I don't need that even to begin to get emotional about it. I watch people come in their red and white, and have their flag with them, and bring their families, and solemnly take that oath, and sing "O' Canada" for the first time. And that's it. I, I don't make it much farther than that without a big tear in my eye because it is something that they're very thankful for, they're very proud about, and they feel that sense of belonging. And it makes me feel that way as well.

NK: Cathy, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

CW: Thank you.

CH: That was Cathy Woodbeck, executive director of the Thunder Bay Multicultural Association. We reached her in Thunder Bay.

[country]

Sutherland Hotel

CH: The hotel stood on Main Street in Winnipeg for over 140 years -- and for 110 of those years, it was known as "The Sutherland". But in recent years, it was vacant, and neglected. And this week, its story came to an end -- when a fire reduced it to rubble. The Sutherland was a fixture in the city's north end, with its barroom and barbershop catering to locals. But to Brad Bilenky, it was his boyhood home. His parents owned and operated the hotel for about 11 years, beginning in the 1970's.

SOUNDCLIP

BRAD BILENKY: It's heartbreaking. My formative years there were, you know, from 10 to about 18. And I just remember the place in its glory days, right? It was, it was a wonderful place. We had a lot of regulars who, who stopped in the establishment. And, you know, like, friday and Saturday nights, they would have polka bands on there. So, you had Mike Domish, who's from, a lot of the old timers would remember the Mike Domish Band. You know, so the place was packed, right to the point that on a, on a Saturday night, my Mum worked the front door. She had the velvet rope, the whole bit, which sounds crazy when you think about [both laughing] where things are at this point in that, in that area. But yeah, it was, it was really quite something. We really, quite honestly, we never had the problems that a lot of these Main Street bars face right now. We never had security. We never had bouncers and that kind of thing. A lot of the locals were regulars. They just were working-class heroes. And we, you know, we had really good tenants even back then, right? So, there was one fellow I mentioned to your producers, his name's Bill. He was a dynamiter who would go up north, blast holes in the mines, and then come back. But he had no, you know, wife, no kids, no family whatsoever. So, we really, Mum and Dad and my brother, became his extended family. And so much so, and he got paid very well as well. So, at one time, I came back and it was very cold. It was very much like what we're dealing with today. And he goes, come on, we're going to go shopping. So, he took my mom and my sister-in-law and bought them fur coats. [laughing].

CH: Brad Bilenky talking to Marcy Markusa, host of Information Radio in Winnipeg earlier today.

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Tom Dorward Obit

CH: If you're a musician or a budding musician in Nova Scotia -- especially if you have an affinity for strings -- you probably knew Tom Dorward. For more than 50 years, inside an ivy-covered Victorian house, Mr. Dorward bought, sold, fixed, built, and rebuilt stringed instruments at the Halifax Folklore Centre -- the shop he owned with his wife, Marla. Mr. Dorward died last week. He was 78 years old. He was a key part of the music scene, despite never taking the stage himself. He sold many a musician their favourite instruments -- or brought those instruments back to life when it seemed they'd been plucked or picked or strummed for the last time. Visiting musicians made a point of stopping by his shop, just to see what kind of magic the master luthier had worked of late -- whether it was creating a new instrument out of a collection of unused parts, or crafting something new. On the centre's 50th anniversary a few years ago, he spoke to the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

TOM DORWARD: As I said, it's very cyclical in the string and guitar business. I mean, lots, you know, during the disco era, all of a sudden, [chuckle] there wasn't a lot of guitar work. But then, it always comes back. It comes back. And right now, I'd say it's, it's, during the pandemic, I mean, people stayed at home, and they didn't play electric guitar. For the most part, they played acoustic guitar, and mandolin, and banjo.

MAN: Mostly banjo.

TD: [chuckling] Mostly banjo. You wouldn't believe how many banjos we sold during the pandemic.

CH: The late Tom Dorward speaking with the CBC's Rose Murphy in 2021.

The AIH Transcript For January 17th, 2025

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