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The AIH transcript for January 16, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Beyond help. Aid organizations are ready to ramp up the humanitarian response in Gaza, if the ceasefire is approved -- but they know some aspects of the deal could complicate aid delivery.

CH: A real scoop. After "backhoe bandits" dig an ATM out of the local bank, yet another town in Newfoundland and Labrador is grappling with wrecked walls, stolen cash, and a host of unanswered questions.

NK: Strong convictions. A Manitoba reeve and business owner says the sentence handed down to a serial shoplifter should be stiffer -- and that her story is proof his community needs more help with its growing addiction crisis.

CH: Wild at art. We remember David Lynch -- the eccentric director whose dark visions disturbed and delighted moviegoers.

NK: New boys' club. A spider fan tipped off scientists about a peculiar species he identified and now they bear his name, but we hear they prefer the nickname: Big Boys.

CH: And…[both chuckle]the answer, my friend, is blowin' without wind. Scientists with China's space program prepare for a lunar landing -- by designing a flag that will flap up there, despite the airlessness.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that believes innovation is the sincerest form of fluttering.

Part 1: Ceasefire Aid Access, Backhoe Robbery Folo, Big Boy Spiders

Ceasefire Aid Access

Guest: Shaina Low

CH: So far, it is a ceasefire in name only. Officials in Gaza say renewed Israeli strikes have killed at least 80 Palestinians in the past 24 hours alone. After Qatar's prime minister announced the agreement between Israel and Hamas yesterday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu delayed a cabinet vote on the deal until tomorrow -- saying a, quote, "last-minute crisis" with Hamas was jeopardizing its approval. Hamas denied that claim and said it remains, quote, "committed to the ceasefire agreement, which was announced by the mediators." Unquote. As we told you on the program yesterday, Palestinians in Gaza and the families of Israeli hostages who could soon be released are holding their breath. And they're not the only ones. Aid trucks are once again beginning to queue at key border crossings. Shaina Low is a spokesperson for the Norwegian Refugee Council. We reached her in Amman, Jordan.

NK: Shaina, if this cease fire becomes a reality, how quickly will the Norwegian Refugee Council be able to scale up its response to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

SHAINA LOW: Well, we've been working for weeks, months now, planning for the inevitable, which was at least a pause in the fighting, is not a permanent ceasefire. And so ,we have trucks stationed in Egypt ready to cross into Gaza once the crossings are open. We are continuing to monitor the situation day-by-day to see how we can best deploy our resources to where communities are in need. And what we need in order to be able to do that is not only the quick crossing of goods into Gaza, but also to resolve the access issues that we faced inside of Gaza, being able to access all areas, making sure that there is, that aid convoys are protected and not targeted either by Israeli forces or by the criminal gangs that we've seen emerge over the last several months that have been stealing humanitarian assistance.

NK: Just to give our listeners an idea, as you picture it, and you and your colleagues, how do some of the best-case scenarios that you're all envisioning compare to the reality right now?

SL: Well, the reality on the ground is very, very bleak. Ninety per cent of Gaza's residents are or have been displaced. Many of them multiple times. And an estimated 92, 93 per cent of housing in Gaza is destroyed or damaged. And so, we know that, that a six-week truce is not enough to meet the tremendous needs that have emerged over the last 15 months. We know that this is going to be a long-term recovery and reconstruction process. But we hope that all parties will facilitate the mobilization of humanitarian resources. And that we'll be able to scale up and respond as quickly as possible.

NK: There's a sense at this point that one of the elements of this cease fire agreement is that displaced Palestinians sheltering in southern Gaza might be allowed to go to their homes or what's left of them in the north. That is good news for people who are desperate to find out, you know, to, to go home, but also see what is left behind. But does that complicate the humanitarian and the relief efforts?

SL: There are few things that that, of course, we hope and we know that people want to return home. They want to see what's happened to their belongings, to their families, to their friends. But we are concerned about potential dangers that might await them. Everything from unexploded ordinances to structures that may still be standing, but insecure and structurally unsound that may be risky if people tried to return to those homes. So, we know that there need to be assessments. That demining actors will need to play an important role in ensuring that places are safe to return to. And then, of course, because of the tremendous amount of destruction in Gaza, there needs to be heavy machinery brought in, in order to remove, start removing, the rubble and the debris. We also know that there's going to be a tremendous effort needed in order to conduct the appropriate assessments, to know what resources are needed and where, and especially with limited humanitarian access in northern Gaza over the last 15 months. And so, we hope to be able to deploy our staff as quickly as possible and other humanitarian actors to identify those needs and get resources where they're needed most.

NK: The crimes and looting you mentioned earlier in our conversation, Shaina, where is the security that you clearly need going to come from? Who is going to provide that?

SL: I think that that is still, is still something that needs to be worked out. It hasn't yet been communicated to me, but it certainly is something that the guarantors of the agreement, Qatar, the US and Egypt, need to take into consideration. We also hope, of course, that as the surge of aid comes in, that those, those items will be targeted less. But, really, it's unclear how that security can be maintained when the, the civilian police force in Gaza has been targeted so much. Hopefully, some of those civilian police officers will be able to return to work and help to protect convoys and restore law and order.

NK: Shaina, we know from our conversations with you on this program and other aid workers about the toll all of this has taken on your colleagues working on the front lines of the of this disaster, of this crisis. As human beings, the toll it's taken, but also staff members trying to carry out this this urgent work. What are people saying to you since this news came?

SL: Well, I think there's a few things. People are hopeful. They are desperate for a ceasefire. They are exhausted from 15 months of, of bombardment. But I think we're also cautious because we know that once the violence ceases, people will have the moment to take a breath and, and really absorb the events of the last 15 months and the tremendous trauma that's been experienced. And so, I think that we're all anticipating the ability to return to work and be able to fulfill our mission, which we have, which has faced so many impediments. But we also know that our staff have also had to face tremendous loss, loss of family members, loss of homes, loss of friends. And so, we know that it's going to be a bittersweet moment when there finally is a relief from the fighting. But the realization of, of what has happened and letting that all sink in. And so, I think people are excited and hopeful. But at the same time, they know that now they'll be facing tremendous loss and absorbing it. And also have so much work to do in order to scale up and really follow through with our mission.

NK: Shaina, I appreciate your time. Please take care. Thank you.

SL: Thank you, Nil.

CH: Shaina Low is a spokesperson for the Norwegian Refugee Council in Amman. That's where we reached her.

[ambient instrumental]

Backhoe Robbery Folo

Guest: Dave Aker

CH: You need some money, but when you open your wallet, a moth flies out -- it's empty. So, you head to the ATM at the nearest bank -- but it's also empty. Not…not the ATM itself, but the space where the ATM used to be. Someone ripped it out of the building overnight....with a backhoe. Several municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador have been hit by thieves who used heavy machinery to steal ATMs. They're known as the "Backhoe Bandits", and they've carried out their very unsubtle heists at three banks in just over a month -- leaving behind wrecked walls, and plenty of unanswered questions. Dave Aker is the Mayor of Mount Pearl, Newfoundland and Labrador. That's where we reached him.

NK: Mayor, at this point, are police there any closer to, to solving these latest cases?

DAVE AKER: Well, I know the investigation is ongoing, and that's being done by the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. But the previous incident was in a place nearby called Carbonear. And I know the RCMP are on the case out there, and they're looking for the, the two pickup trucks that were involved, ultimately, I think, in carrying away the safe belonging to the ATM. But no, there's been no updates on the RNC at this point in time. We're about, what, four days since it happened. So, I'm sure an investigation is, is ongoing.

NK: Yeah. Describe for our listeners, if you could, Mayor, because they may not have seen the photographs, and they certainly haven't seen it up close. How much damage did the break-in at the RBC branch in Mount Pearl do? What does it look like?

DA: Well, it's a war zone, basically. You know, these machines are very powerful. It was an excavator. And it tore in through the roof and through the walls. There's glass, there's brick, there's wires. Oh my heavens, the wires are everywhere! And yeah, there's no sign of those two banking machines that were there. But, but it took a bit of surgery to get in there. It would have taken even more surgery to extract the, the ATM and its safe. And somehow, it must have been loaded onto a pickup truck. But I know the roof at that end of the building has to be replaced as well as the walls. The, the estimated cost, according to the, the owner of the building, he tells me, could be upwards of $100,000 to fix the exterior. I believe RBC is responsible for the interior fix-up per the lease, and they're anxious to get it done. There's a 180-day clause, apparently, in the lease, which would suggest that, you know, if they can't operate, they can move to another location. So, from a customer point of view, from an employment point of view, it's important everybody start working on the remediation.

NK: What do you think, Mayor, when you drive past that site?

DA: You're scratching your head like, come on. This is the sixth time it's happened in the region in the last, say, year. But here's the worst part. There's a, a credit union no more than 300 feet away, which was, which had a similar accident or incident, I should say. So, here, you're looking at the immediate damage done here Sunday night into Monday, and you're looking over at the other credit union, and the damage is still not repaired there, right? So, I think this is where some of our Newfoundland dark humour comes from.

NK: [chuckle] Yeah, the memes. I've seen some of the memes.

DA: Yeah!

NK: And certainly the nickname, the Backhoe Bandits, they've, they've dubbed all of this. In some situations, as you well know, you have to, you have to laugh or, or you'll cry. But it is very serious. Let's be clear with our listeners about just how police believe these crimes were unfolding. Because the people carrying out these crimes are not rolling up in excavators, right?

DA: No.

NK: They're, as I understand it, they're seeing a construction site where there's an excavator, and then getting access to, to the machinery and doing what they need to do, right?

DA: Yeah. The construction sites are not necessarily right next door to the, to the banking institution in all cases, but they're nearby. But, in this case, and I believe the one one in Carbonear, the, the excavator, the backhoe, whatever was used, was actually on a site right next door. So, in the case of the RBC incident, there's a, there's a new building going up there. And there's an excavator handy. And onward and upward. They came and they took the place out. And I would imagine they were gone pretty quickly. It looked like somebody knew what they were doing. And our biggest worry, to be honest, is that in addition to the customer service element and the employment, there could have been somebody in that building. It could have been a cleaner, there could have been a client gone in there for, to do some banking. We're not sure exactly what time this happened. So, despite the memes, everybody, I think, realizes that there's serious repercussions. But it's the repetitious nature of this, right? This is not the first time.

NK: Is it the same crew doing this, you think, or copycats?

DA: Oh, I have, I, I would venture to say it might be more copycat than the same people. But, you know, only through the news media when we hear about people who've been arrested, you know, they're entitled to due process. But it may be just copycats at the end of the day. But it's so easy to do. All you need is a key, typically, for that brand of machinery, and you can get things started and start doing your, your damage.

NK: They don't have individual, they don't have keys that are, that are specific to the vehicle. They're sort of universal keys.

DA: Right. So, here at the city, we have many vehicles like that. And so, the more recent vehicles that we've acquired have a console inside. So, once you're physically inside with that universal key, you still have to put a pin in in order to start the vehicle. But even here at the city, some of our vehicles which are older, it does have that universal key. But we, we park or vehicles inside a compound every night. We don't leave them out unattended. And I can see it for developers and construction companies. They would want to use the, leave the equipment onsite because they don't want to float it in and out every day because that would just cost a lot of money. But there seems to be no incentive to put this to bed. But yet, we're all scratching our head in seeing the same thing happen over and over again.

NK: And you mentioned you're not sure about the timing of when this last one happened. Are there not cameras outside the bank?

DA: I'm sure between a bank and possibly some other cameras that the property owner had, there's video, but that's all part of the investigation. So, I really wouldn't be able to comment on that.

NK: Okay. And what are the other facilities, near construction sites or otherwise, doing? What is your advice to them right now?

DA: I've sort of suggested that what we need to do, all these vehicles are registered with the provincial Motor Vehicle Registration Division. I think there needs to be stronger regulations to ensure that access to these vehicles is limited. I do know some in the tech sector down this way are looking at ways of tracking the vehicle, especially when they're not in use by the authorized owner. If I can put an AirTag on my car in case it's stolen, and I can figure out where it is, I'm sure we can do something similar with the with the excavators. The key is that when the excavator starts to move on a Sunday night late, a warning should go out to the owner to say it's in motion and something bad, well, is likely to happen.

NK: Mayor Aker, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

DA: My pleasure. Thank you very much.

CH: Dave Aker is the Mayor of Mount Pearl, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[ambient instrumental]

Big Boy Spiders

Guest: Kane Christensen

CH: Kane Christensen calls them "The Big Boys". And, unfortunately, "the Big Boys" are a newly discovered species of Australian funnel-web spider. We might all prefer it if he had nicknamed them "The Small Boys" or "The Nice Harmless Boys", but no: they are big, and they are among the deadliest spiders on Earth. This week, the Australian Reptile Park announced that the largest male funnel web spider ever found also belongs to that new subspecies. And that it's been named after Kane Christensen himself: Atrax christenseni. We reached him in Tuggerah, Australia.

NK: Kane, is this a badge of honour, having one of the world's deadliest spiders named after you?

KANE CHRISTENSEN: It's absolutely unbelievable. Yeah, the biggest I could possibly think of -- 100 per cent.

NK: Does your family agree? Are they honoured?

KC: Oh, they are absolutely stoked as well. They knew when I was telling him about it, when the scientist called me and asked if they could actually name it. And I was so happy. I think they were like, oh yeah, that's really cool. [NK chuckles] But the more this has built up, and they're getting contacted by their friends and stuff about, oh, we just saw your dad, it's really kicking in now. And, yeah, they are absolutely stoked as well.

NK: So, they're proud of you. They're excited for you. They know how much you love spiders in general, particularly this one, I expect.

KC: Yes. Yes.

NK: But do they share your love?

KC: Not really. My son and daughter were always okay with spiders. My wife, since she was my girlfriend; we've known each other forever, for over 20 years. But she's been arachnophobic since she was a child. And, in all the years working with spiders, she's still most probably the most arachnophobic person I've ever met.

NK: Didn't keep you guys apart, though. That says something.

KC: I think it's a perfect mix. You know what I mean? I can always be the hero, you know? [both laugh]

NK: I see. I see the tactics at play here. Unless she finds out that there's spiders in your house.

KC: Yeah, well, we do keep a couple, but I keep them hidden. [laughing]

NK: A couple?! Where are they?

KC: Yeah, there's one above our pantry in our kitchen.

NK: Oh my! [both chuckle]

KC: And there's one hidden in the closet.

NK: These are live specimens?

KC: Yeah. Yeah. Yep, definitely.

NK: Of course, why would, why would it be different? [chuckling] Do you just, and, and why do you keep them there?

KC: They like the dark. That's one reason. But, yeah, I just want to have them close by. I love to still watch them and see them.

NK: So, you got this honour because you played a key role in identifying them. You're not a scientist, as our listeners have heard, just a big-time enthusiast. So, what happened? What did you do?

KC: I was working at the Australian Reptile Park. And I volunteered back then in the spider section. It moved quickly to a job, and I was working there as a spider keeper, full-time spider keeper. I left mid-2009, you know, to get married and have some kids. And then, I went back again. And I was the head of spiders. While I was the head of spiders, I noticed these spiders were different. And that's when I contacted the Australian Museum, and I said, Look, these things are definitely different. It's not just their size. They're, they're a lot larger than every other what we were thinking back then was Sydney funnel webs.

NK: Okay.

KC: There were some very specific points, mainly their copulatory organs, the male's reproductive organs, basically. They were definitely a lot different to any other funnel web we had had in.

NK: What's different about them?

KC: They're really, really distinct per species. It's, it's like a lock and key mechanism between the males and females. And these ones were astronomically large, and it was amazing.

NK: The venom is key here. You volunteered.

KC: I did volunteer. I was volunteering there right at the beginning to, to extract venom from these spiders. So, the Australian Reptile Park is the only place on the planet that actually extracts venom from male funnel web spiders to produce all of Australia's antivenom for funnel web spiders.

NK: And how do you extract it?

KC: What we do is we have a little glass syringe with a little vacuum pump on the back of it, and we would gently coax the funnel web to stand up. It doesn't take much for them to stand in the defensive pose. You just basically have to touch them. Their fangs are exposed, and they actually excrete drops of venom off those fangs, clear to the naked eye, and you can just draw the pipette down the fangs and it sucks up the little bit of venom into those pipettes.

NK: That does sound so fascinating, what you're describing. It also for people who, like your wife, who don't love spiders, what you're describing is their actual horror movie playing out in their mind as you describe it. And when you talk about the, the size and the way they look, they really do look like what people who are afraid of spiders, why they're afraid of spiders is because of what [chuckling] these spiders look like.

KC: They're pretty much, yeah, the pinnacle of spiders, as far as I'm concerned. They're jet black and just shiny. Because they're in the primitive spider group, similar to tarantulas, their fangs are pointing backwards underneath them at all times. They spread their front four legs right up in the air. They've got real bright red hairs around their mouth, and then their venom drops, you can see them hanging off the fangs at the time, yeah.

NK: What drew you to spiders in the first place. Where did this fascination begin? Why?

KC: Honestly, most probably as a kid, just absolutely loved Spider-Man. I used to read all the comics, you know? But I've always loved all animals. Doesn't matter if it was looking out at my yard. At, at the moment, I can see a sheep walking past. I got a chicken. I got a cat sitting on my lap. [NK chuckles] So, I've always loved animals all my life and I don't discriminate.

NK: You do paint a pretty lovely and vivid picture of the scene there, Kane. We should mention, you know, you talked about reaching out to the Australian Museum. The scientists there got involved. And there were layers of things they had to do to confirm that this was indeed a new species.

KC: They could do all the stuff that I didn't have access to. So, they collaborated with a bunch of different scientists and got the DNA analysis done. They got venom analysis done on it as well. So, they can look at each component in the venom and say, yes, they all have a different chemical signature as well. None of this would have been possible without the help of the Australian Museum.

NK: Were they, were they skeptical at all when you reached out?

KC: No. Like, it was really, really nice that I got to actually meet Dr. Mike Gray. So, he was one of the original grandads of funnel web spider revision in Australia. And he'd already noticed that ones from Newcastle were bigger, but they just didn't have a big enough sample size to do anything further with it. That's where I could help them with that because I was coming into contact with a lot more every year than they'd ever seen.

NK: There was another discovery as well, and the name Hemsworth has been attached to that.

KC: Yeah, so, I'm not at the Australian Reptile Park anymore. But someone had handed in a spider to them, and it was the largest one they'd ever seen. It's actually one of the new species. It's like a bit of a double whammy for them and it's great.

NK: [chuckling] And why did they name it Hemsworth, Kane?

KC: I would say it's because it's a stunning male specimen, you know what I mean? [NK laughs] But I'm a bit biased with that spider, you know?

NK: The famous brothers.

KC: Yes, definitely.

NK: I wonder if they know about the honour that, that, that they've received.

KC: Maybe I can meet them, too. I'm sure my wife and daughter would be very happy. [laughing]

NK: Then she'd, she'd suddenly love spiders. Your wife is suddenly in love with spiders. [laughing]

KC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it, yeah. It might open different doors where we can go and meet some famous people, right?

NK: Kane, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

KC: I really appreciate you calling. And I hope you all have a great day.

CH: Kane Christensen is a spider lover whose passion helped scientists discover a new subspecies of the Australian funnel web spider, which is now named after him. We reached him in Tuggerah, Australia.

[disco?]

Moon Flag

CH: Pop quiz, hotshots. [NK chuckles] Please identify the following sounds. First, this:

[a flapping flag]

CH: And now, this:

[horrible silence]

CH: Okay, pencils down. Now: the first sound was a flag. And the second sound was...also a flag. Now, you're probably saying, "How was I supposed to know that second thing was a flag? Nothing was happening!" To which I'm probably saying: that I've made my point! You can only tell a flag is a flag when it's flapping in the breeze. Which is a problem in places where there is no breeze, such as the moon. And when you go to the moon, you simply must plant a flag. But without external help, it will just hang limply, embarrassing everyone. That's why, during the Apollo program, NASA developed the Lunar Flag Assembly, or LFA -- a system of aluminum tubes that ensured American flags on the moon would always be fully unfurled. And now China is going one step further. The Chinese National Space Administration plans to land a lunar lander on the moon in 2026. And it doesn't want some rigidly extended flag. It wants flapping! So right now, scientists are hard at work on creating a flag that will, in fact, flap on the moon. According to a spokesperson, this flag will contain closed loop wires on its surface, and two-way positive and negative current will, quote, "make the flag flutter through the interaction of electromagnetic fields." Unquote. China has assigned its top electromagnetic space flag experts to this project. And it will be an astonishing technological achievement. But here on Earth, we like real wind flags. That self-fluttering flag? I wouldn't fly that from a 10-foot pole.

[heist music?]

Part 2: Manitoba Shoplifting Sentence, Iron Age Woman

Manitoba Shoplifting Sentence

Guest: Bill Gade

CH: How long should a serial shop-lifter remain behind bars? That's the question posed by the case of Katheryn Laurel Audy -- and it's proving to be a tough one for the system to answer. When she was challenged while shop-lifting in Swan River, Manitoba, in 2023, Ms. Audy repeatedly punched a grocery store employee. Court records say she laughed during the assault, and later told police stealing from stores was "her job". Prosecutors and her counsel jointly suggested a sentence of four months -- but the judge made it three years. He argued that a lower sentence would -- in his words -- "bring the administration of justice into disrepute", pointing to the lengthy criminal record she racked up while addicted to meth-amphetamine: 22 theft convictions, and three assault-related convictions. But this week, Manitoba's Court of Appeal reduced that three-year sentence by a full year, pointing to Ms. Audy's "traumatic background", and saying she did not plan the attack or use a weapon. In a social media post, the Municipality of Swan Valley West described that reduced sentence as "unacceptable". Bill Gade is the reeve for the town, and the president of its Chamber of Commerce. We reached him in Swan River, Manitoba.

NK: Bill Gade, what did the Court of Appeals decision signal to you?

BILL GADE: It told us that they're still not understanding the problem. They haven't figured out that we need to do something about Ms. Audy and people like her that just can't stop shoplifting in our community.

NK: Is this about this woman in particular, or is there a bigger issue with shoplifting and crime?

BG: This is a bigger issue in Swan River. We have the best community in Canada. If anyone's looking for a place to live, we're it. We've got affordable housing, we've got beautiful parks, wonderful recreation, great schools. But we also have a crime problem that we're trying to fix. Every hour, a business in Swan River is being targeted by someone that's shoplifting. People are scared to shop at grocery stores. They're scared to walk in the parking lots because someone will come up and take their groceries from them. We have to solve this crime problem. Ms. Audy is a symptom of it. She's one of the people that are doing this. And that's why it broke our hearts so bad when the prosecution asked for such little jail time to begin with. And the judge said, no, that's not enough. So, they asked for a little more. And the judge said that's still not enough. Let's give her three years. And we said, yes! Finally, we're going to send a message that shoplifting is so bad. It has to be stopped. And then, our hearts got broken when the appeal court came along and cut the sentence.

NK: The judge who handed down that initial sentence described the community as, quote, absolutely rocked by the epidemic of drugs, unquote. Just describe the effects of that addiction. I mean, clearly, there's, there's a link between that addiction and the kind of shoplifting you're seeing.

But at the same time, we can't allow the shoplifting in the meantime.

NK: Are there conversations that you, as reeve and others, you know, in sort of official positions there in your small community about what you can do in your capacity as reeve? What kinds of things are you discussing? You know, I hear what you're saying about the legal end of things, but in terms of things you can put into place at your level, are there conversations on that front as well?

BG: We certainly are talking to the province of Manitoba. We meet with the premier, we meet with the ministers, we talk about options. A lot of the media coverage goes to some place like Winnipeg. We see this week they're doing something for 700 homeless people in Winnipeg and that is great. Those people need help. But we also need help here. And if we could put that same level of effort into helping here, we wouldn't be having this conversation tonight.

NK: If officials, provincial officials, are listening, what would you want to say to them if you were speaking to them directly right now?

BG: You know, I think the most important thing we can do is find some more options for treatment. We look at somebody like Ms. Audy. She's from just a little ways outside of Swan River. There's a reserve just north of here that she's originally from. If she was to go to treatment voluntarily, we'll just assume for a moment she would, that means sending her to Winnipeg, where she knows nobody, where the day she's done treatment, she walks out onto Main Street in Winnipeg and has no supports. We don't offer treatment in a rural area, where her family can come and help her. And I don't know if Ms. Audy specifically is ready for that help. But I know there's people that are. And if their families could be close enough to them, they could come visit on the weekends at the treatment facility, and say to them, you're doing good. Look at your life. You're doing so wonderful. And when they're done treatment, they were actually in their communities, and could have had help, maybe we'd have more success. Right now, treatment for somebody like Ms. Audy, even I don't think it would work.

NK: But you would be open to a facility in and around your area? Closer at least?

BG: Absolutely. We need to have something closer. You know, right now, it's six hours away for Ms. Audy to get treatment. And there's absolutely no support for her when that's done. If they bring her back to Swan River, it's a one-way ticket. They drop her off on the corner and say good luck.

NK: You grew up in Swan River. It certainly has a beautiful name. I haven't had a chance to visit it. But what was it like before, like in many communities, addiction became such a prevalent problem?

BG: Swan River was a community where nobody locked the doors. You didn't take the keys out of your vehicle necessarily at the grocery store. You left it in there. You never considered the problems like we saw the cities would come here. We always assumed it would be that nice community. It's so wonderful. The people are so friendly. It's a valley. We're two hours from everything. So, we're this wonderful place that's untouched by the world. But yet, we have all the services. It's a beautiful place. But it was safe for your kids. Everybody was proud to say, I'm from Swan River. We had license plates made up that people drove all over the country saying from Swan River Valley. And everybody said it's a wonderful place. We need to get back to that.

NK: Bill Gade, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

BG: Thank you.

CH: Bill Gade is the reeve of Swan River, Manitoba. That's where we reached him.

[psychedelic rock]

NS Bills Bride

CH: Olivia Doiron had a pretty good idea of the plan for her wedding day. But midway through the ceremony at a Halifax hotel, the Buffalo Bills superfan got a surprise from her now-husband Sean Smith.

SOUNDCLIP

SEAN SMITH: I vow to be truthful with you. To share with you my honest self inside and out, and to hold no secrets. But not always. [laughter] Sometimes, I may have to hold on to a secret bonus gift to give you during our ceremony. [bleep] We're going to see the Bills.

OLIVIA DOIRON: NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! NOOOOOOO!!!! NOOOOOOO!!!! OH MY GOD!!! SERIOUSLY!!!! OH MY GOD!!!

CH: Sean Smith of Bedford, Nova Scotia really surprising his wife, Olivia Doiron, with tickets to see her favourite football team: the Buffalo Bills. Now, the tickets he gave her were placeholders, and could be redeemed at any time. And now that the Bills have made the NFL playoffs, the couple has decided to cash those tickets in: they're heading to Buffalo this weekend to see their team face off against the Baltimore Ravens.

SOUNDCLIP

OD: It's not uncommon for him to surprise me. He's really good at that. He is a really good gift giver. I don't know if you can see in the video, but it's almost like I roll my eyes when, when he has, oh, but yet another surprise because that's just so him. So, I was wondering, what could this be? He's already outdone himself. We exchanged gifts before the ceremony. And his gifts prior to that were amazing. And I said, how could he ever have anything else to give me? And, and yet, it was the best gift of all. It was me being able to see my favourite NFL team.

ANJULI PATIL: Have you guys gone yet?

OD: No, actually, we have bought tickets for this weekend. We were going to wait until next season. I was going to choose the game I wanted to see, and we were going to buy tickets. But with all the buzz of the video and everything like that, we just thought, let's put a bow on this and let's go to a playoff game. So, we bought some tickets for Sunday's game.

AP: And, Sean, to see her face, to see that reaction, what was that like for you?

SS: That was incredible. I mean, I remember it in person, of course. But, like, when you watch it back on video, and particularly the way that it was shot and stuff, like, it is even more outrageous than I even sort of imagined. It's really, really funny to see it back.

AP: And what are your, both of your thoughts on the video going viral?

SS: It's crazy. I've never experienced anything like this. And, but more interesting is, like, often, you can go to comment sections on things and it's all a lot of hate and this, that, and the other. But the Bills fans are like the best people on the planet Earth. Like, we've been invited to more tailgates than you could name. And everyone's been so accommodating, all the tips and tricks and all that that you can get. And everyone loving that we did this.

OD: Yeah, it was, it's been incredible. I worked today, and my phone was just blowing up all day. New follows, messages from Bills fans, you know, offering to give us gear, to come to their tailgate, free wings if we stop by our restaurant. It's been actually absolutely incredible. And like Sean mentioned, very few negative comments, which is, which is hard to come by these days on social media. So, it's been a breath of fresh air, for sure.

CH: Newlyweds Olivia Doiron and Sean Smith of Bedford, Nova Scotia, speaking with the CBC's Anjuli Patil.

[cop music?]

Iron Age Women

Guest: Lara Cassidy

CH: In the countryside in southwest England, there's a small place called Winterborne Kingston. That's where Lara Cassidy and her team have been studying DNA that's approximately 2,000 years old. They say that DNA tells a story about marriage and gender that you may not expect. A story of a culture in which men moved to their wives' communities, not the other way around. The study is published this week in the journal Nature. Ms. Cassidy is the lead author. She's a geneticist at Trinity College Dublin. We reached her in Dublin.

NK: Lara, once you analyzed these results, what story did that DNA tell you?

LARA CASSIDY: We were looking at an Iron Age cemetery. We had about 55 burials, all from the same site. And we found that the majority of them were family members, right? They were members of the same extended kin group. And the family had been burying their dead there over the generations. So, we were able to piece together a family tree for this community. And the thing that jumped out was that most individuals were related along the female line. So, they were related through their mothers and their grandmothers. What that tells us, if we have these sort of unbroken lines of female transmission from mother to daughter over the generations, that tells us that women are staying put, daughters are staying put. They're not leaving when they reach adulthood.

NK: And it, was that, was that finding surprising? Is that something that was common at that time -- matrilocality?

LC: Yeah, so, I mean, I would say it was surprising. I was surprised. [chuckling] It was surprising in some ways. But actually, if you pay close attention to the archeological context, what we know of continental Celtic societies as well from the archeology and also from what the Roman writers were telling us about the Iron Age peoples of Britain. If you pay attention there, then actually, it's not so much a surprise because there were strong hints of, you know, matrilineal elements to these societies from, say, female grave goods. So, the items women are buried with at death, that they suggest that that women could attain quite high status in their societies. There's very wealthy female burials we find in this particular region of England.

NK: So, the women would stay put with their families. The husbands were moving to, to be with them. But does a matrilocal society suggest there's a matriarchy there?

LC: No. [laughing]

NK: Important to underline.

LC: We have to not confuse all of our different matrices.

NK: Yeah.

LC: So, matrilocality, this is a residence pattern. This is the choice married couples make as to who's family to live with. In a matrilocal society, they go to live with the wife's family. That's rare. That's rare in kind of societies we know from the past few centuries. A lot of what we know about matrilineal societies, and how matrilocality, you know, influences women, influences gender roles, we have learned from societies living in Africa and Southeast Asia and the Americas over the past few hundred years. These societies aren't matriarchies. Men still generally hold more positions of kind of formal authority. But women can also have very influential roles far beyond the domestic sphere. There's fewer barriers to female political participation and female political leadership as well. So, we're not saying women ruled and men were oppressed. What we are saying is more empowerment for women in these societies.

NK: Given that the matrilocality was, was so rare and surprising to you to even, to even see this, what were the benefits for husbands, for men, to make that move? Why were they doing that?

LC: Why a society adopts a particular residence pattern, there's lots of different factors involved. And it's not just men who are making these decisions. It's women, too. One of the big factors that's taught to shape residence is patterns of warfare in the society. And specifically, we see with matrilocality, matrilocal societies we know about, at least today, they tend to engage purely in external warfare along some sort of a kind of territorial boundary. You don't see much internal fighting within a territory. Like, you don't see as much internal feuding. External warfare, like, there's different reasons why people think that external warfare might trigger a change to matrilocality. One thing that happens with external warfare is men can be absent for long periods of time. So, women might be more involved in food production and controlling resources. And it might make sense for daughters to stay put. If you don't have much internal warfare in your society as well, you're less worried about your son leaving home. If you're likely to be attacked by the neighboring village, you want to keep your sons close. If you're not so worried about that, you're happier to let your sons go and maybe marry to the neighbouring village. So, we see with matrilocal societies, you know, within territories, it's a lot of kind of friendly relationships between different settlements. Matrilocality, there's an idea that it might even promote almost a sense of sort of tribal unity. And actually, that could actually make them more successful than at waging external warfare. These are all anthropological theories as to why this might happen. There's a huge literature on it, as I was saying, on kind of societies from the past few centuries. We're now kind of taking that and I suppose trying to apply that to what we're finding in the past with the big caveat that, you know, the past is a different country in many ways.

NK: [chuckling] Your career will be full of many discoveries, I suspect. But this one, you know, that moment, these DNA results appear on your screen, do you think anything will measure up to that moment?

LC: [laughing] You know, I have to say, working on ancient DNA, I'm continuously surprised. This was one of the big ones, definitely. When we got that result that so many of these people shared the same female line ancestor, that was definitely a woah kind of moment. But I'm sure there are going to be more. It's a real privilege, I suppose, to work in the field.

NK: A pleasure speaking with you, Lara. Thank you.

LC: Thank you very much for having me on.

CH: Lara Cassidy is an assistant professor in the department of genetics at Trinity College Dublin. We reached her in Dublin.

[funk]

FOA: ‘Twin Peaks’ Diner

CH: There are very few movie directors whose names become adjectives. And even fewer whose names become adjectives that conjure an entire, complicated, creepy aesthetic. But when I tell you a movie was "Lynchian", you know what I mean. And you may not necessarily like it -- but you might watch it anyway. David Lynch -- a unique, genre-defying, frequently inscrutable director -- died today. He was 78 years old. He was known for weird, haunting movies like Blue Velvet, The Elephant Man, and Mulholland Drive -- the last of which has been cited repeatedly as the best movie of the 21st century so far. Director Steven Spielberg -- who cast him as the great John Ford in The Fabelmans -- remembers him as a "singular, visionary dreamer who directed films that felt handmade." But his most popular work was on the small screen. The surreal mystery series Twin Peaks became a critical and cultural phenomenon. And it's largely set in the Double R Diner. That diner actually exists; it's in North Bend, Washington. It's called Twede's Cafe. And when it was announced that third season was coming in 2016, former As It Happens host Carol Off spoke with owner Kyle Twede. She asked him what David Lynch might have seen in the building when he was scouting for the perfect diner.

SOUNDCLIP

KYLE TWEDE: Back in the day, we had a fire. And it burnt the original building inside out. So, so, the outside was still okay. So, we just kind of re-put it back together. But originally, it was a, really, a local place for a long time, kind of, kind of turned into more of like a where the hunters would go in the morning before they get out there at 5 [CO laughs] in the morning and go hunting. So, there was a lot of early coffee drinking, or early get together with the hunters and stuff. And so, it took on kind of a hunter persona. It had brown walls.

CAROL OFF: A lot of smoking going on in there.

KT: Orange...yeah, a lot of smoking. You know, that was, you know, smoking just recently was banned out here. And so, people loved to come in and drink coffee and smoke. And the building was getting kind of bad. Guys had been missing the urinal for 60 years, [CO laughs] and the ceiling tiles were tobacco brown, and, you know? So, it was definitely an old, old, out-of-shape, worn out building. But that's exactly, I guess, what David Lynch was looking for when he went through to find locations for the Twin Peaks show. He found several other locations in the valley here that were built in 1940, just kind of old and not really taken that well care of. So, they had that dark, campy look to them, which is what he needed for that show.

CO: Do you think that it will be filmed again in your town, in North Bend?

KT: You know, I don't know. I have, I don't have any idea what's up his sleeve. And, you know, I keep --

CO: David Lynch, you mean, yeah? [both laughing]

KT: The way he wings, wings this stuff. You know, so I don't know. We'd love to have him come up. And if he wants to use the restaurant, and paint it and change it around. I don't have any problems with him doing that. I mean, it's sort of an icon. So, if, if they want to come up here and make it that again, that's, that's fine. But I'm not, you know, I'm just riding it out. I'm glad that the fans are going to see it. It's going to bring people in for another couple of years in anticipation. So, we'll just, we'll just hope for the best.

CH: From Our Archives, Kyle Twede speaking with former As It Happens host Carol Off in 2016.

[ambient]

Part 3: Walkerton Doc Lines, Water Bomber Pilot

FTR: U.S. Housing Tariffs

CH: There's been a lot of talk about tariffs lately -- and their potential impact on Canadians. And those conversations are also happening south of the border. Specifically, on Capitol Hill. This week, there's been a flurry of confirmation hearings for the incoming administration. Among those in the hot seat is former pro football player Scott Turner, who's been tapped as the new secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development, also known as "HUD." Today, Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen had a few questions for Mr. Turner about tariffs, and their impact on the cost of housing. Here's part of that exchange, For The Record.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I think all of us recognize we have an affordable housing crisis in the United States of America. You agree with that, right?

SCOTT TURNER: Yes, sir.

CVH: And obviously, some of the inputs to housing are the materials. We talked about how your, you have a multifamily housing business. And when I asked you what were the primary drivers of increased costs? One of, the first thing you said was the costs of actually building the home in the materials, right?

ST: Yes, sir.

CVH: Right. So, I want to talk to you about those inputs. Because obviously, lumber is a huge cost for housing. And the previous Trump administration increased tariffs on lumber. The current Biden administration kept them on and raised them a little further. I think they're now at about 15 per cent. Would you agree that it would make housing more unaffordable if we further increased tariffs on lumber?

ST: That's the president's job. And I know he's going to do everything he can to bring costs down.

CVH: I mean, this is, this is sort of math. I'm just asking you, there are lots of factors here. But would you agree that if you increased the tariffs on lumber, which is a major input to the cost of housing, that increases the cost of housing?

ST: Well, I think there's a lot of increase to the cost of housing. I don't want to get into the tariffs conversation because, obviously, that is not my job. That's the president and your job as Congress. But what I want to do is combat anything that raises the cost of housing, be it the cost of construction, be it fees, be it regulatory burdens. That's what I'm focused on, Senator, to bring those things down.

CVH: Right. No, look, I appreciate that. You know, if you're confirmed, you're going to be secretary of housing. An affordable housing will be part of your portfolio, a major part of it. And obviously, you'll be at the cabinet meetings if confirmed. And so, I hope you will pass on to the president as he considers these things the impact that will have. Look, I support targeted, targeted tariffs to protect strategic U.S. industries. I mean, that's a very important thing. But a broad-based set of tariffs across all sorts of goods that we're importing obviously drives up costs to Americans, just like it drives it up for housing. And there's another area of housing that includes gypsum. By the way, we produce some gypsum in the United States, but we also import a lot of gypsum, including through the Port of Baltimore. That's another area. If, if President Trump is talking about increasing tariffs across the board for Americans by 10 to 20 per cent, won't, won't those tariffs on gypsum and other things also raise the cost of housing and make it less affordable?

ST: I do commit to you to having these conversations, if confirmed by this committee with the president. Because, obviously, affordable housing if I'm the secretary of HUD, will be my responsibility. And so, I do commit to having these and more conversations on how we can bring costs down in our country so that we can build, build, build, build affordable housing. So, I do commit that to you, sir.

CVH: I appreciate that. And again, I just, this is a simple mathematical proposition. And if we're serious about affordable housing, we can't have across-the-board tariffs in an unstrategic way.

ST: Yes, sir.

CVH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CH: For The Record, that's U.S. Senator Chris Van Hollen questioning Scott Turner at his confirmation hearing today. Mr. Turner is Donald Trump's pick to lead the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development.

[wistful instrumental]

Walkerton Doc Lines

Guest: Jacqueline Simoes

CH: The small town of Walkerton, Ontario has become a microcosm of Canada's healthcare system. Yesterday, hundreds of people lined up in the snow outside the Legion Hall in Walkerton, after learning there was a new family doctor in town -- and that he was accepting 500 new patients on a first-come, first-served basis. Jacqueline Simoes was in that line. She hasn't had a family doctor in eight years. We reached her in Walkerton.

NK: Jacqueline, what time did you show up to line up yesterday?

JACQUELINE SIMOES: I showed up at 8:30. My plan was to show up earlier, but we had a snowstorm, a bit of a weather event, the day before, the night before. So, I thought, well, there won't be that many people with the roads that way. And when I showed up there at 8:30, I was proven wrong. And it was overwhelming the amount of folks that were there.

NK: How would you describe that line?

JS: It, it was jaw-dropping. It, it went right around the corner, and right up Scott Street. Now, I actually measured, [chuckling] I actually measured it on Google Maps of where I started in line. And it was about 725 feet away.

NK: At 8:30 in the morning in a snowstorm.

JS: Yeah.

NK: As you approached the line and got into it, and then started talking to people, I suspect, what else are you going to do as you wait out in the cold? What were they telling you about how long they'd been waiting?

JS: Some people, it kind of was like a telephone, telephone effect. Like, information rippled from the front back, and that's kind of how we stayed informed. But some people had been there since 6:30 in the morning. When I rounded the corner in my car to find parking, there were people in lawn chairs, and there were people with umbrellas. We had heard in the line from other people that there was a fella who actually slept in his car, and he had been there since 2 a.m. And he was there all morning. Like, people were there very, very early in the morning. And we were just grateful it wasn't windy.

NK: Well, that's, that's something at least. It sounds good that people were commiserating and, and clearly, all there for, for the same reason. And what you said about that man coming, sleeping in his car. I mean, that suggests how important this was. What did other people share about what this opportunity meant for them?

JS: There were people that came from as far away as Owen Sound and even further, which is about an hour, an hour's drive from here. And a lot of people were expressing their frustration at how we had signed up and were part of health, Health Care Connect. And how every time we check-in, there's just no doctors available for patients. So, a lot of people were expressing their frustration. A lot of people were expressing how unfair it was that we were waiting outside, we were waiting outside, especially for people in our most vulnerable sectors, right? The lady in front of me was in a wheelchair in all of the slushy snow. There are people ahead of us that had walkers. And there was a man in his early 70s. It was very saddening. And it was, we, we kind of just tried to rally and, and, you know, and hope for the best that we would, we would either get in with this doctor on the waiting list and, and have some glimmer of hope. I mean, if you don't have hope, what do you have, right?

NK: This new doctor was accepting 500 new patients only. Did you make that cut?

JS: I did not. I did not make the first 500. I was in the second group of 500 that would be put onto a waiting list for the second doctor to come. So, the first 500 got, like the first 500 got severed off. And they would go inside to register. And then, after that, because people were getting really cold, and, and it was it was getting really cold. So, about a 12:45, they had people come out, take your information, your name and your phone number down, and they said that we could go. And when the new doctor came, they would give us a call. And [chuckling] I remember asking that lady two or three times, is this list actually going to make it somewhere, or is it just going to end up in the bin and we're going to have to do this all over again? And she assured me, no, it was a list. But it was, it was a little disheartening because it was just, like, names and phone numbers on a legal pad, you know? And it wasn't anything official, I guess.

NK: And so, you waited for four hours. Even if this new doctor does start in, in April, did they give you a sense of how soon you'd be able to get an appointment?

JS: No. They said the, they said the goal was April. If all goes well, that it would be April. But I can just imagine she'll also, I think it's a woman that's coming, she will also have 500 patients who want to see her. So, I'm figuring that if I get in with this next doctor, I probably will only get appointment like next fall. Like, this, this fall coming up, I guess.

NK: And was there, I mean, are there, are there requirements for people to, to, to be able to get in with this doctor? Is there, you know, you have to live in a certain, certain area or certain radius of where their office is?

JS: Not that I'm aware of, no. There were folks that came from far away, so I would imagine there was no criteria that was explained to, to get in. It was just first-come, first-serve.

NK: For you, you, you have not had a family doctor for eight years. So, what has that meant for you?

JS: For me, it's scary. Because without a family doctor, you don't have that consistency of, of care, right? So, you only go to the emergency department when something is absolutely wrong, when you've really injured yourself, or something is really hurting. So, it's, like, in my mind, it's, it's scary because you think to yourself, do I have something that's not being diagnosed? Do I, when I finally get to meet a doctor, that first appointment is going to be scary because it's, you don't, you don't know what's going on. You know what I mean? If that makes any sense.

NK: Yeah. Do you ever allow yourself to imagine what it will be like to actually sit across from a doctor?

JS: It would be, it would be fantastic. And I think these new doctors that are coming in, I think they're going to be overwhelmed because people are going to have lots of things that they're going to want to discuss that they haven't been able to discuss with a doctor for years, right? And it'll be great. It will, it'll definitely be great. It'll be, I think, a weight lifted on, on a lot of people to be able to discuss their personal health with a family doctor.

NK: Jacqueline, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

JS: Thank you very much. I, I definitely appreciate you guys. And I hope the awareness of all of this truly makes a difference.

NK: I hope so, too. And I hope you get to see a doctor soon. Take care Jacqueline.

JS: Thanks.

CH: Jacqueline Simoes stood in line yesterday to get a family doctor. We reached her in Walkerton, Ontario.

[ambient synth]

Van Loneliness Challenge

CH: For the most part, Anna Ho's TikTok videos all start the same way.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNA HO: So, I live in Vancouver. So I live in Vancouver. And I have no friends. And I have no friends. No friends. So, come with me to do 30 activities in the city. To do 30 activities in the city. In hopes to find a friend or two. So, my first activity is paint and sip. It's basically painting, it at this bar. Today's activity is Bumble BFF. I'm on my way to an Airbnb to meet a group of strangers. So, I'm on my way, heading over to North Vancouver. So, I signed myself up for a runners' group, run group?

CH: The 23-year-old Ms. Ho has lived in Vancouver all her life, but has struggled to maintain friendships in young adulthood. And -- ironically -- she's not alone. Vancouver has a loneliness problem -- so much so that, about a decade ago, the city established a task force to address the issue. Now, I don’t know if documenting yourself doing 30 random activities in hopes of meeting like-minded people along the way was on the task force’s list of recommendations. But Ms. Ho recommends it. And as she told CBC Vancouver, it was a response to a challenge that she never expected to face.

SOUNDCLIP

AH: I actually didn't expect it to be that hard. And so, you know, when I, like, decided to put myself out there and meet new people, I realized, like, like, for someone like me who's been here my entire life, you know, someone who is, like, completely new to the city, I can, like, completely empathize with them and, you know, see how hard it is to kind of make connections. Because everyone here, like, they're very polite, they're very nice. The only problem is trying to get that second hangout, you know, without feeling ghosted. Or, you know, making that plan to kind of, like, hang out with that person after they say, like, we should definitely hang out. And then, like, you make the plan and then it's kind of canceled, rescheduled, all that stuff.

AMY BELL: Yeah. We were watching your TikToks, and they're delightful, and you seem incredibly charming. So, you've been doing this on TikTok for this challenge, and I'm curious why you wanted to document it in this way?

AH: Yeah. I mean, I thought it was kind of, you know, putting myself out there on the Internet was a way to kind of hold myself accountable. And also, to kind of shed light on loneliness and, you know, not having friends in your early, like, adulthood life. Because I think people don't really normalize that. And a lot of people are kind of ashamed of that. And they think like, like, oh, if I don't have any friends at this age, or if I can't make new friends, like, there must be something wrong with me and all that stuff. And I just wanted to help people realize, like, oh, you're not alone. It's, you know, it's, it's definitely not an easy thing to do. And that, you know, if I can be a courage or inspiration for someone else, then that's all that really matters.

AB: And do you feel you've made some genuine friendships out of this so far?

AH: I want to say yes. But at the same time, it's very hard because, you know, I just started this whole adventure thing.

AB: Right.

AH: And so, you know, with any friendship, it definitely takes time. So, I think I'm still working on it. [laughing]

AB: We don't want to jinx it. We won't talk about that anymore. [laughing].

CH: Anna Ho is a Vancouver TikToker doing 30 activities in 30 weeks, in a bid to make new friends in her city. She was talking to Amy Bell from CBC Vancouver.

[ambient electronic]

Water Bomber Pilot

Guest: Pascal Duclos

[a plane in flight]

CH: That's the sound of a Canadian water bomber collecting about 6,000 litres of water from the Pacific Ocean. The mammoth red-and-yellow aircraft then drops that water on the wildfires that are still burning around Los Angeles. The planes are part of the support that Canada has been sending to help with firefighting efforts in the States. Several provinces have kicked in crews of firefighters, staff, and equipment. And just yesterday, Quebec deployed two more aircraft -- bringing the province's total California aid package to four water bombers, 12 pilots, and six technicians. Pascal Duclos is one of those pilots. We reached him in Los Angeles.

NK: Pascal, what images stand out in your mind from the last time you were up in the air above these fires?

PASCAL DUCLOS: It is, I see really a big tragedy here. All neighbourhoods are being destroyed by this fire. It was, it was terrible to see that from the air.

NK: How was it different for you, if at all, from other fires you fought, just physically being in the plane and what you had to do to fight these particular fires?

PD: It was much more bumpy than the other fires I've fight before. Yeah, with the winds up to more than 100 miles an hour, it was, it was a challenging on the, on the plane. We were at the edge of the control of the airplane.

NK: Can you describe for our listeners, certainly, they've seen, seen videos and photographs of how what you do unfolds. But just in case they haven't, can you describe how you're scooping up this water? Just the logistics involved. It's a very specialized skill, obviously.

PD: Yeah, of course. It's a really specialized technique or skill you have to, to do to do that. When, when we take off from the Van Nuys Airport, we took off with a half load of water on board so we can drop right away on the initial attack. So, that make us really efficient here. So, it's a really quick response. And after that, we heading to the closest source, water source, around the fire. In this case, we're in the ocean there. And in the morning, there was, the ocean was too rough? So, we were able to scoop water out of the ocean by scooping only the top of the wave. And after that, enough to, to make our pattern to, to drop the water on the, on the fire.

NK: And how many times are you, are you scooping and then dropping, scooping and dropping in, in one shift, if I can call it that?

PD: Yeah. In the first mission, we've done 23 drops each plane. And on, we came back for refueling. And when we go after the, on the second mission, the, the ocean was not, was not good enough to scoop over there. It was too rough. So, we went on the reservoir up north here called Castaic Lake. And because it was much more further from the fire, we were able to make it only four drops on the second mission.

NK: When do you think you'll go back up in the air?

PD: I don't know. Right now, it's, for us, it's like a slowing down for us. So, we are on standby to, for the new fire starts. And there is a little bit windy today, not as much as forecasted, which is a good, good news for everybody here.

NK: Yeah.

PD: So, we are back on standby for a new mission.

NK: As you, as you well know, one of the Quebec water bombers, one of the planes in Los Angeles, was damaged and grounded because of a drone earlier this week. I think it was repaired and was scheduled to fly, fly again. It's back in working order, is that right?

PD: Yeah, that's right. There was, yeah, it was a drone. Quebec 243 hit a drone. We don't know where and when he hit the drone. We only know he hit the drone when we realized that when we get back on the, on the ground, our technician saw that on the, on arrival. He saw the hole on the left wing.

NK: Hole on a left wing. What did you think when you saw that?

PD: I wasn't the pilot on that. But when I saw it, I was, I was surprised people are flying a drone in the vicinity of a fire like that. It's really, is irresponsible from those people. That could kill people.

NK: And the, and the FBI is, is investigating, we should say. You've been doing this work, I think, Pascal for, for 14 years. Did this situation, have these fires taught you anything?

PD: Actually, I've been doing that for 14 years. And what I realized with those fires, just like we, what we get in the Quebec province and even Canada on Season 2023, the drought situation around the world just seems, to me, switching from place to place. And making the fire, forest fire worse and worse. So, yeah, that's, I realize that.

NK: That it's getting worse. And this, obviously, was in a densely populated urban area. So, that's another level of, of the disaster.

PD: Yeah, that's another level of, yeah, we can say stress or pressure on the, on of the operation when you see the home burning down there. It puts a bit more pressure. But the first concern is always the security of the, of the plane and the people on the ground. So, yeah.

NK: When do you think you'll, you'll get to go back home to Quebec?

PD: I plan to go back home in Quebec probably, the contract here is, so far, is the end of the month. So, pretty, like, come back at the end of the month or the beginning of February.

SOUNDCLIP

KRISTA LYNN HOWELL: It's just a special place here in St. Anthony. And, you know, while it's devastating to see the loss of the building, that's not necessarily what made that place so special. It's the people. It's the folks that work there. It's the people who are so passionate about making this work here in our small community. It was a game changer for so many children. And hundreds of kids have come and gone through those doors. And, you know, the trajectory of their lives have been changed because they found a place where they belonged. And it's just a huge, huge array of opportunities for children to learn and to grow.

BERNICE HILLIER: This is a historic structure. Can you tell us a little bit about the history, what that building used to be?

KLH: From what I know, it's 100 years old. And it used, originally, I think it was an annex to the hospital where patients who had been discharged from the hospital would stay, and they'd wait for the boat to come or wait for somebody to come pick them up. And oftentimes, they were there for months waiting for the boat to come in the spring, and it became their home. And over time, I think it was developed into staffing accommodation for the staff coming and going through Grenfell Health at the time. And in recent years, it was handed over to community groups for youth and children's programing. And even when I was a kid, I remember it was called The Loft back in those days. And it was a hangout for youth and for teenagers. And they always had something positive happening for kids in the community.

BH: Since the fire broke out last night, what have you been hearing from people as that building was burning?

KLH: It was incredible to see the responses on social media, and people sharing their stories. You know, some people were saying that this is the first place that they can remember ever living when they were staff here in St. Anthony. Or people saying it was the first place that they had an opportunity to learn how to play a guitar. Or somebody sharing about how they met their best friend at a dance at The Loft a number of years ago. A very broad response and of memories and what this building meant to so many people.

CH: That was Krista Lynn Howell, a former mayor of Saint Anthony, Newfoundland and Labrador, speaking to Bernice Hillier, host of Newfoundland Morning. The cause of the fire is under investigation.

The AIH Transcript For January 16, 2025

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