Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

The AIH transcript for January 10, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Protection racket. New Brunswick Premier Susan Holt says all the noise around the race to replace the Justin Trudeau should not distract Ottawa from the challenge of the incoming U.S. president's tariff threats.

CH: Get out of jail free. Months after his conviction on 34 felony counts, President-Elect Donald Trump is sentenced to repay no debt to society -- thanks to an unconditional discharge.

NK: Feeling used. After a fire does serious damage to an enormous secondhand clothing market in Ghana's capital, a local designer describes the role Canadian consumers and businesses should play in addressing that disaster.

CH: A forest to be reckoned with. Against all odds, a hiker is found after 13 days lost in an Australia national park. The man who finally spotted him tells us about that moment of discovery.

NK: Flipping the manuscript. The late Zora Neale Hurston's final book was unfinished, and it barely survived a fire. But now, thanks to our guest -- you can find it at your local bookstore.

CH: And...junk science. Yet another activist in yet another country gets immediate action on potholes by spray-painting penises around them -- a tactic pioneered by an anonymous British vigilante by the name of "Wanksy".

CH: As It Happens, the Friday Edition. Radio that reports on a club with a lot of members.

Part 1: Tariffs: Susan Holt, Ghana Fire, Zora Neale Hurston Novel

Tariffs: Susan Holt

Guest: Susan Holt

CH: Donald Trump's tariff threats are changing political calculations north of the border. Finance Minister Dominic LeBlanc had been on a lot of Liberal short lists to replace Prime Minister Trudeau. But earlier this week, Minister LeBlanc bowed out, saying that dealing with the potential fallout from the inbound U.S. administration requires, quote, "nothing less than my full attention." Unquote. Then, this morning, another top prospect, Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly, stepped up to the microphones to say this.

SOUNDCLIP

MÉLANIE JOLY: But essentially, I had to ask myself two questions. The first one is, am I ready to be the first woman to lead the Liberal Party of Canada? And the answer is yes. And am I ready at the same time to step away from my responsibilities as Minister of Foreign Affairs at a time where it is a crucial time in the Canada-U.S. relationship? And the answer is no. And the reality is I can't do both. So, I'm heading into the Canada-U.S. Committee and the Cabinet Room, and we will be talking about retaliatory measures against potential tariffs from President-Elect Trump. And we will be ready. And I'll do my job.

CH: The impact of the Trump tariff talk is being felt in the provinces as well. Susan Holt is the Premier of New Brunswick. We reached her in Fredericton.

NK: Premier Holt, we've heard from Mélanie Joly this morning. And she referenced tariffs quite strongly as, as a big part of the reason she is not going to run for the Liberal leadership. Dominic LeBlanc is not in the race, either. They've both talked about the importance of this, the situation with the United States. What does that tell you? What should it tell us about the seriousness and significance of a threat of a trade war?

SUSAN HOLT: Well, I think it emphasizes that this is exceptionally serious. The impacts of these tariffs on the Canadian economy will be, well, terrifying, [chuckling] as I think I read in a headline somewhere. It's going to have a negative impact on workers. We're going to see job loss. It's having an impact on revenues in provinces and for the federal government. And so, we've, we've had people forecast that it could push Canada into a recession. So, it's extremely serious. And we need to put all of our best efforts towards fighting these tariffs and getting them suspended as quickly as possible.

NK: What industries are you most concerned about in your province?

SH: Well, here in New Brunswick, we are extremely concerned about our fishery, our lobster fishery specifically. We're concerned about agriculture, a number of our food exports. We're concerned about forestry. And then, we have a number of advanced manufacturers that produce really unique goods, but for whom their market is the U.S., some of them to the tune of, well, New Brunswick as a whole sends 92 per cent of our goods to the U.S. And some of our businesses, it's even higher than that. And so, there's, there's a number of businesses in every corner of our province that will be impacted negatively by this.

NK: There is talk, of course, of, of a retaliatory, retaliatory list of, of, of tariffs to place on the United States if, if this were to, to, to go ahead -- if what Donald Trump is threatening would go ahead. We know Ontario Premier Doug Ford says he has a, what he describes as a strong list of retaliatory measures. What is on your list if it gets to that point?

SH: Well, we're building the list collectively because we want to make sure that, you know, as, as premiers put things forward, that we're not damaging our neighbours in the process. So, we're all looking for the things that New Brunswickers and Canadians buy a lot of from the U.S. but could replace with Canadian equivalents or otherwise. So, I think you've heard talk of there's, there's consumables, there's things like the Harley-Davidsons or the old Milwaukee beer that, look, we here in New Brunswick make great craft beer. And so, we can, we can replace the American beer with our own. And we don't want to, we don't want to hurt our neighbouring provinces. So, the list is being looked at very strategically and in collaboration with each of the provinces across the country to make sure that we do our best to hit them where it hurts and have the effects that we want, which is to get the tariffs stopped, while not hurting our own economies anymore than the necessary.

NK: Obviously, you're taking what the incoming U.S. administration and the incoming president are saying very, very seriously. That's clear in what you've told us in this conversation. But do you feel that, that it is a tactic at this point? That, or are you bracing for, really, a full-blown trade war?

SH: The frustrating thing about all of this is that it's hard to tell with this incoming president whether it's going to, it's going to escalate and turn into a trade war or whether it's going to disappear because there's going to be a new focus for his attention. And so, we have to take it seriously because we are already feeling the impact to our economies because it's put a chill on economic activity. And we have to do whatever we can to prevent a full-blown trade war and build the kind of relationships, thankfully, that we have and with, with leaders in the U.S., with business leaders, with governors, with senators and others who, who all unanimously have stated that these tariffs are going to be damaging for their states and for their people. And we hope that with those allies, we can make this as short-lived as possible and prevent it from escalating to, to the level of a trade war.

NK: Uncertainty in this situation, but uncertainty more broadly in terms of the liberal leadership race, the top office [chuckle] of prime minister, a potential election in the months ahead, a federal election. How does that uncertainty feed into, to what you're dealing with right now?

SH: Yeah, it doesn't help. You know, we need stability. And thankfully, Canada's premiers are united, and stable, and have been working together for, for many weeks now on this issue as a priority. I've suggested to the federal government that adding someone to the negotiating team who is nonpartisan and who will be there before and after an election would be a smart move. Because clearly, we don't know when the next election will be in this province, in this country. Other than knowing that it's coming, and likely sooner than later. And so, knowing that we have someone who's going to be at the table today, and tomorrow, and next month, and in the summer, and in the fall, I think, would help de-risk some of the work that we're doing.

NK: No conclusive answer for you on that? If you're going to get that that kind of representative?

SH: Well, I'm looking forward to that conversation next Wednesday in Ottawa.

NK: That's your meeting with your provincial counterparts and the prime minister. Beyond getting an answer, a firm answer on that ask that you're making already, what would success look and sound like for you at the end of that meeting with the prime minister?

SH: Well, I'm optimistic that by the end of that meeting we will have a regular, a regular interval of meetings to come. We want to be connecting on this on a weekly basis as premiers and with the federal negotiating team. We want to have a firmer sense of the retaliation list and of the work that's to be done. And we're going to be planning out our mission in February to, to really put the full court press on the leaders in the U.S. and leverage those allies to be pushing back against the tariffs with their new president. And so, I think a success will be us walking away as premiers feeling confident that the Federal Government has put its priority on this, has put its resources behind this, and are prepared to work with us urgently and on a daily basis until these tariffs have been lifted.

NK: Premier Holt, thank you for your time.

SH: Thank you, Nil. Appreciated.

CH: Susan Holt is the Premier of New Brunswick. We reached her in Fredericton.

[ambient instrumental]

Ghana Fire

Guest: Yayra Agbofah

CH: It's one of the largest secondhand clothing markets in the world. And at the start of this year, it went up in flames. Huge sections of Ghana's Kantamanto market were destroyed, disrupting the lives of thousands of people who earn their livelihoods there. Last week, a fire official said that faulty electrical connections could have started the fire -- but did not rule out arson. The Or Foundation, a non-profit focused on clothing waste, says Kantamanto receives millions of garments every week from across the Global North, including Canada. It also says the market is responsible for recirculating 25 million pieces of secondhand clothing every month through resale, reuse, repair, and remanufacturing. Yayra Agbofah is part of that effort. He's the founder of the community-led organization The Revival and has a storage space that was lost in the fire. He's also been shopping at the market since he was a kid. We reached him in Accra.

NK: Yayra, you're home now, but you were at the market earlier today. Can you describe what it looks like now?

YAYRA AGBOFAH: It's in a rebuilding state. A few days ago, I think last, last week, Friday around this time, the market was totally burnt down to ashes, to the ground, literally, and with nothing to rescue or nothing to, to salvage. So, since the fire last week until now, the community in Kantamanto, which is made up of the traders and executives, have been put in all efforts working around the clock to be able to rebuild the market.

NK: Well, the fact that rebuilding is happening already is remarkable. I mean, the images of how it's been levelled are striking and very sad to see. But the fact that you're saying rebuilding is happening already, that's remarkable.

YA: Yes, rebuilding is happening as we speak. And working people are working day and night to get the market back on its feet. And it's an amazing thing to see. It's restoring hope, and also showing the resilience of the Kantamanto community that no level of devastation or fire would take away, you know, the unity and the love we have for, for the market, and the fact that it's a primary income for about 30,000 people. When the fire happened, there was no, there was no plan b because there are no jobs and other options that people would go to. This is the only income stream that people in the market rely on. So, hence the immediate response to rebuild and restart.

NK: Have you slept at all, Yayra, since last week?

YA: I have not slept. I have no, if I tell you that I have slept then I'm probably, yeah, not, not, not, not saying it right. I have not been able to have proper sleep because of the state of emergency. Having to see my people, my friends, people I know, family and friends break down in tears because their livelihoods have been destroyed, and they have to start from scratch. I cannot sleep with having to think of these things.

NK: This is a, this is a vital part of the economy and livelihoods of many, many people there. But it's also a burden in a sense because we're talking about millions and millions of articles of clothing from other parts of the world. Canada is a big part of this as well.

YA: Exactly.

NK: What happens to the clothing that arrives in Ghana but is not selected for sale at the market?

YA: The items that are not selected by the traders, so what happens is the retailers, they open it, and they stay open the bill, and then they sell what they can sell. What's not able to be sold is where we come in. I mean, some of, most of them throw it away because it's trash. So, they just either throw it in landfill or throw it in the ocean. That creates massive environmental pollution. So then, what, that's where we come in. We have positioned ourself in the intersection between the landfill, the ocean, and the market, where we prevent these clothes from ending up to, to destroy the environment. And then, we upcycle them and look and find different ways using creativity to, creativity and design, to be able to bring these clothes back to life and keep them in the loop.

NK: Are there particular, are there particular brands that you see repeatedly?

YA: Oh yes, so many brands like the Shein, like H&M, Zara, Primark, Marks& Spencer, New Look, Topshop Gap, Nike, Adidas, Puma. So many of these. Som, so many of them. ASOs, Pretty Little Things, Lululemon. All these brands, brands that we see on a regular basis.

NK: There are fundraisers on right now to help rebuild the market. Your organization is running well, one as well. There's also a push to get brands to contribute to, to this rebuilding effort. Why was that an important piece of the puzzle for you?

YA: I think it's very important for people who are, you know, causing the problem to take responsibility in times of need. Katamanto is a place that has been fostering circularity from a practical perspective for, for, for decades. And if a calamity or a disaster of this sort has happened, it's a responsibility of these brands that we find them in, and we find their names or labels on our shelves or in our market on every second or regular basis to take responsibility and come to our aid because we keep their mess in circularity. We try to clean up their mess. And it's, it's the least they could do to take responsibility. One thing I also forget to add is that there are three popular flags in Katamanto, which is the Canadian flag, the British flag, and the United States flag. The reason why it's popular there is that a lot of the clothing that come, they have the labels on them when they are tagged on the bills. Mostly, you know, some of the flags on them. And the Canadian flag is quite popular.

NK: So, what would you say to our listeners in the United States and in Canada?

YA: What one thing I would say is that whatever actions you take in, in the U.S. and Canada has a ripple effect on us here. If you consume so much, we have to deal with so much because it ends up with us. I'm sure a lot of people think of donating to charity, helping or doing something, but it's placing a burden on us. If you're donating to charity, you should think that this product emulates them. Is it, is it something somebody could use? Why would you need to include torn clothes, heavily stained items, items in bad condition? Charity is definitely going to end up to us. Do we deserve torn clothes? Do we deserve items in really bad condition? Ghana is not a dumping ground. And for that to change, it starts from you in the U.S. and in Canada to change your consumption patterns. You should be responsible consumers. And that is going to go in the favour of people, humans. You are our environment and the planet as a whole.

NK: Yayra, I appreciate your time. Thank you for this. Please take care.

YA: You too. Thank you so much. All right. Bye.

CH: Yayra Agbofah is a founder of The Revival, an organization that operates in Ghana's Kantamanto market. We reached him in Accra.

[sombre instrumental]

Zora Neale Hurston Novel

Guest: Deborah G. Plant

CH: Fans of Zora Neale Hurston's haven't been holding their breath waiting for any new work from her. And that makes sense: the famed figure of the Harlem Renaissance and author of Their Eyes Were Watching God died in 1960. But this week, a previously unreleased Zora Neale Hurston novel was finally published. The Life of Herod the Great is her last known work. It's incomplete -- and had to be salvaged after a fire and pieced together by careful hands. Debroah G. Plant is a literary critic specializing in Zora Neale Hurston's work -- she edited the novel. We reached her in Tampa, Florida.

NK: Deborah, you clearly love Zora Neale Hurston's work. You've devoted so much of your, your career to studying what she was able to write and accomplish. So, I wonder if putting this out into the world was not just an offering for her other fans, but also to her?

DEBORAH G. PLANT: Absolutely. Absolutely. I have always felt like Zora Neale Hurston has given so much, and given me so much personally and culturally speaking. And so, it's like just an honour to do this work. And I just feel very grateful that I've had this opportunity.

NK: Knowing Zora Neale Hurston's work as well as you do, would you say this is, this is very much in line with what she's done before or a departure?

DGP: We have to remember she was a social scientist.

NK: Yeah.

DGP: And always about the business of humankind and how we relate to one another as human beings. What drew her to the work, first of all, her father was a pastor. He was a minister. And her mother was a schoolteacher. So, she is dealing with this portrait of, of, of Herod that she has, has inherited, you know, from, from her family and from her culture. At the moment that she really is, you know, focused on this story, mainly the story of the Jewish people, this happens in 1945. And, and when we look at what was going on in 1945, particularly in relation to Jewish people, then you can see where she would want to tell their story. And part of that was the story of Herod, who she saw as a lens through which to see that history.

NK: After her death, this manuscript was almost lost completely in a fire. And when people hear that, they might think that her home was burning down, but it was actually an entirely different set of circumstances. What happened?

DGP: It was the work of a crew of, of men who were told to clear out a house. So, they didn't know who she was. They didn't know what they were burning. They were just doing a job. And her friend, Deputy Sheriff Patrick Duvall, was driving by. He saw the fire. He knew who Hurston was. He knew she was a writer. He, he even had long conversations, talks with her. So, he knew the importance of what was in that trunk and what they were, you know, setting ablaze. And so, he stopped and put that fire out and managed to save what was left in that trunk.

NK: And thank goodness. I mean, when you heard that story, as someone who loves her work, what did you think?

DGP: I'm like, I got to see that, right? I've got to [chuckling] I've got to see what was kept for us, what she left us.

NK: So, when you, you take on this project, how long did it take you to, to bring it to this point where it could be, where it could be published? Still unfinished, certainly, but as it was left?

DGP: Well, you know, so much time lapsed from the, my initial project of, of bringing this to publication, which was like 10 or 12 years ago. That's when I initially approached the trust about doing this. And then the trust, the Zora Neale Hurston Trust, reorganized. And in the meantime, lots of time passed by. And then, you know, a few years back, they were then ready to move forward with, with a proposal to bring it to publication. And then, I was able to just focus mainly on, on getting that done. So, the bulk of it, you know, two to three years.

NK: Yeah.

DGP: And, of course, the long view is [chuckle] 10 to 12, so.

NK: Is it, it's risky though, no, to, to release something. That may be well researched and emblematic of her of her loves and her interests, but not finished, not fully complete.

DGP: Risky, yes, but worth the risk because it wasn't complete in the sense that she had not done her own revisions for a last or a final draft. But she had been revising all along. Part of it was in TypeScript. Part of it was in longhand. But the story overall is, is intact. Most of the, of the manuscript was intact. It was a work in progress, and that meant that I, as her editor, would have to make decisions that I'm going to have to make without her input.

NK: Was that difficult?

DGP: Well, I had to decide that it couldn't just be an artifact of what she left us. It had to be a novel. And I chose to have it take the shape she intended for it. Whatever editing was, would be done, nothing would compromise her voice. And, and she is such a, you know, gifted writer anyway, that whatever, whatever might be considered flaws as, as some critics have said and might say, nothing takes away from this great story that she tells. And nothing takes away from the fact that, stylistically speaking, she's just a superb writer. It was just, you could almost say, her dying wish that we have this story that she spent so many years researching.

NK: Deborah, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for this.

DGP: You're very welcome. It's my pleasure as well.

CH: Deborah G. Plant is a scholar specializing in Zora Neale Hurston's work. She's the editor of a newly published novel by the late Ms. Hurston. We reached her in Tampa, Florida.

[folk]

FOA: Penis Potholes

SOUNDCLIP

W: They don't put pants on Michelangelo's David, do they? You know, you go to an art gallery, you see naked bodies painted everywhere. It's art. It isn’t a photograph of a male appendage. It's a picture. It's an interpretation. It's lines. It could be anything.

CH: [NK chuckles] It could be anything: an elephant's head; a whale with two round fins wearing a helmet; Jeff Bezos's spaceship. But it's none of those things. What it is is: an act of protest; a demand for action; and -- just in terms of the visual presentation -- a cartoon penis. That voice you just heard was "Wanksy" -- an artist and activist whose canvas is the streets. In 2015, he began a campaign to force the city of Manchester, England to fix its potholes. He has a two-stage methodology. First: go to a pothole. Two: spray-paint a giant penis around it. Now, you could argue that that's juvenile, and you couldn't argue that it isn't. But it gets results: the powers-that-be fill those potholes ASAP. And in the years since, people around the world have followed Wanksy's lead. Most recently, in San Gwann, Malta -- where, last Friday, some anonymous hero surrounded a whole bunch of potholes with hastily-scrawled phalluses. And by yesterday, every single one had been filled in. And not just filled in, but tarred over, so as to obscure the galvanizing genitalia. As strategies go, it's so ridiculous as to be ingenious. And in 2015, guest host Dave Seglins asked Wanksy about his approach.

SOUNDCLIP

DS: All right. Of all the things that you could choose to draw around potholes, why a giant penis?

W: It draws attention. People see it, they recognize it, they avoid the pothole or they report it and it gets filled in.

DS: Now, I'll confess. I've seen a photograph of some of your artwork. These are line drawings, correct?

W: Yes. They have to be quick. I'm in the middle of the road.

DS: So, this is a quick little line drawing that maybe we've seen, I don't know, of a five-year-old draw.

W: Yup.

DS: No offence to the art.

W: No, no, that's exactly what they should be like.

DS: So the big question is why?

W: The state of the roads, the potholes. They damage our bikes, they damage our cars. I know people who've been in hospital due to potholes. It's appalling. Money is paid to fix the roads, they don't seem to be done. Ironically enough, until you draw a giant comedy phallus around it. All of a sudden, it gets fixed.

CH: From Our Archives, Wanksy telling guest host Dave Seglins how you can play politicians like an organ, with an organ.

[toy shop music?]

Part 2: Trump Sentencing, Aus. Hiker Rescue

Trump Sentencing

Guest: Tyler McBrien

CH: No fine, no jail time, no penalty of any kind. That's the sentence that was handed down this morning to former and future U.S. President Donald Trump, who was given an unconditional discharge. In May, a jury convicted Mr. Trump on 34 felony counts of falsifying business records to hide payments to adult film star Stormy Daniels during his first run for office in 2016. Mr. Trump maintains he did no wrong in the case, which he characteristically characterizes as politically motivated. Tyler McBrien is the managing editor of the legal news site Lawfare. We talked to him in April about the hush money trial -- and reached him again today in Brooklyn, New York.

NK: Tyler, you've been on our show before. You have covered this trial from the very beginning. Your assessment of the final moments, was there surprise or was this pretty much as it was expected?

TYLER MCBRIEN: Well, the sentence itself, which was one of unconditional discharge, meaning no fines, no jail time imposed, was something of a non-surprise. Justice Juan Merchan had already indicated his desire to impose that sentence. In fact, he said it was the only practicable sentence that he could impose, given that the defendant is the once and future president of the United States. On the other hand, if you flashback to 225 days ago when the guilty verdict was handed down by the jury, it was completely unclear how sentencing would work, what the sentence would be, how jailtime would work if that was imposed. The election was still up in the air, of course. So, contrasting then and now, there is somewhat of a surprise. But in the past week or so, we've known what the sentence is going to be.

NK: Merchan also went to say that, quote, to be clear, the protections afforded the office of the president are not a mitigating factor. They do not reduce the seriousness of the crime or justify its, its commission in any way, unquote. We know the Supreme Court weighed in on this, a five-four decision allowing the sentencing to go ahead. He could not, Trump, get this sentencing shut down, though. What does that signal to you?

TM: I think one could look at the the fact that sentencing continued as a point in the column for American institutions and the rule of law. But I think if you peel back one layer and look at just how closely this squeaked by, that it was a five-four decision, probably shocked some people. Some estimates I saw before the decision was handed down was maybe seven to two. The two justices going in favour of Trump being Justice Alito and Justice Thomas. But he picked up two more justices on the way, which may signal that he has more of an influence on the Supreme Court than previously thought.

NK: Donald Trump appeared remotely. You were there, obviously. What was it like in that courtroom?

TM: In a surreal trial from start to finish, it was a perfect, surreal ending to see Donald Trump next to his lead defence attorney and future administration appointee, Todd Blanche, framed in these screens that were high above Justice Merchan's head, flanking him. They were scowling at the camera like they usually do. And it was just very strange. In one moment, early on, the pool photographers came in, as they always did during the trial, snapped photos of the prosecution, snapped photos at the defence table. Sitting there was only one attorney, Emile Bovey. And then, [chuckle] they sort of awkwardly and, again, surreally turned their cameras to the small TV screens in front of Emile Bovey to snap photos of Trump in the screen, which was just a strange sight.

NK: Is that the moment that will, will stay with you in a trial with so many moments, or is there something else that you will never be able to, to forget?

TM: The moment that will stay with me the most or probably the image that will stay with me the most is sort of silence and well-behaved Trump sitting at the defence table day after day. There were a handful of instances that grabbed headlines of outbursts by Trump during, at witnesses or at potential jurors. But those are pretty few and far between. Really, through the course of the trial, Trump sat there silently as witnesses, some of whom used to be very close to him, as well as potential jurors during jury selection, had the opportunity to, to tell Trump directly to his face how they felt about him, what they had done on his behalf that they now regretted, while Trump sat there and had to listen. And I don't think anyone will have an opportunity to do that again. [chuckling] And it was quite a sight. And I think it's a strange thing to hear that a famously, you know, blustery and loud man would be there silently, day after day. But it's the reality of the trial. And it was, again, part of the surrealism of the hush money trial.

NK: Yeah. Trump's lawyers can now appeal. From what you've seen and heard at this point, is he planning to, to fight this conviction?

TM: Absolutely. The, Todd Blanche said as much in his statement to the court that he intends to appeal. And given his legal strategy in this case and the other cases in D.C., in Florida, in Georgia, I think we can expect Trump's legal team to pursue every single avenue of appeal.

NK: When you think of the time you've spent there and what you've seen and heard, where we're at now, when historians look back at this trial, and people read about it in the future, how do you think it will be seen? Will it be a footnote? I mean, it's hard to imagine a somewhat, a former president now incoming president, you know, a convicted felon. But do you think it will be a footnote or seen as a significant chapter, as many feel it is right now?

TM: I'm not sure if it's my own bias having sat through the trial gavel to gavel, but I really do think that it will be a defining chapter of the Trump era, of the Trump presidencies, of this era of American politics for a few reasons. First being its impact on Trump's reelection. I think many people are right in thinking that this not only the guilty conviction, not only didn't hurt his chances for reelection, but may in fact have been a boon to them. He co-opted the felon label. He used his mugshot on campaign merch, and he really owned this, this once thought of as a kiss of death for a political career. But also, it really brought to light a lot of information of Trump's conduct in 2016, how he comported himself prior to being president, how he dealt with his associates, and almost all of it was unsavory. And now, it's all in the public record, in court transcripts, in evidence, in discovery. It's all out there, and it will be forever.

NK: Good to speak with you, Tyler. Thank you.

TM: Nil, Thank you so much.

CH: Tyler McBrien is the managing editor of Lawfare. We reached him in Brooklyn.

[lo-fi]

Windsor Continent Marathoner

CH: This weekend, Jasdeep Singh of Windsor, Ontario will turn 50. By this point, he knows that life is a marathon, not a sprint. And, in his case, it's actually a whole bunch of marathons -- at least one on every continent. In December, he completed his set by running a marathon in the Antarctic. And as surefooted as that required him to be, Mr. Singh says he kind of stumbled into the whole thing not too long ago. He told CBC Windsor about the most recent race, and the journey to get there.

SOUNDCLIP

JASDEEP SINGH: Antarctica was just unbelievable. Just landing on the Union Glacier itself was amazing. The pilots were so well-trained. There's no airport there. So, we literally landed on the ice. They actually turned the temperature down in the plane itself. He had all our coats, all our layers on because they wanted us to get used to the cold before we step out of the plane. And then, just the sun going around for 24 hours itself. Living in Canada, we are used to snow, but the snow here is packed with moisture. But out there, it was like just, it was sand. The snow was sand. But it was an amazing experience. Plus, having people from all around the world come in to run this marathon just made this even more unique because everybody knew that we were into this together. We had a common objective of finishing the marathon together. So, everybody was just having fun and working together. So that, that made it even more amazing.

JACOB BARKER: And running all over the world, all seven continents.

JS: Yeah.

JB: You know, not a lot of people have done that, right?

JS: Yes. So, considering the southernmost marathon in the world with Antarctica, there are like 400, close to 495 people who've done the seven, the seven continents.

JB: Out of 8 billion people.

JS: [laughing] Yeah, yes.

JB: That's a lot. How does it feel being one person to have done that?

JS: It's very exciting. Like, when I started running, I was just, I did this to, you know, to, for, to just get into shape because I couldn't even do a 5K when I did my first run with my brother-in-law. And that's when I realized I should, at that time, I didn't even think that I would be running seven continents. But then, I got an entry to, I got a lottery into Berlin. So, when I got the lottery to run Berlin, I'm like, this is just amazing. And then, I just got hooked onto running. I'm like, you know, then I sign up for London. London happened. And then, I wanted to just travel with my kids; my kids were getting older, and I just wanted to show them the world. And then, running marathons just became an excuse to take my kids, travel with my family, and then we get to travel the world.

CH: Jasdeep Singh of Windsor, Ontario speaking with the CBC's Jacob Barker.

[hip-hop]

Aus. Hiker Rescue

Guest: Joshua Dart

CH: Hadi Nazari spent nearly two full weeks in Australia's Kosciuszko National Park. Which was a lot longer than he'd meant to stay. The 23-year-old Mr. Nazari got separated from his friends on December 26th. His friends called the police. And for the next 13 days, hundreds of people -- including police, state emergency services, and rescue volunteers -- conducted an intensive search. They did not find him. But Joshua Dart did. He and a small group found Mr. Nazari on Wednesday. We reached Mr. Dart in Bega, Australia.

NK: Josh, I have to ask, do you know how Hadi is doing now?

JOSHUA DART: I haven't been able to keep up with the news too much. But from what I've heard, he's been in hospital, and he's, he's suffered some serious dehydration that they're treating him for and blisters on his feet. So, as far as I know, he's still in hospital, yeah.

NK: Do you, do you imagine or want to meet again face-to-face at some point?

JD: It would be, definitely, if they're up for it, it'd be lovely to just catch up and meet again. And I didn't get his number, though my cousin did get the family's phone number, so he may well connect later on, yeah.

NK: Yeah, I hope you do get a chance. But it's an extraordinary story on many levels. It's been a few days now since you were able to find him. You know, it's certainly made international headlines, but has it sunk in for you and the rest of your, your crew there, what you, what you were able to do?

JD: I think, yeah, I think not really. I think we're still all living in shock, still processing it. You know, the straight after, after it happened, that night, we didn't get any sleep. And it was pretty cold. [chuckling] That might be why. But I think, too, I was just reliving the whole moment over and over in my head, and I just couldn't get to sleep.

NK: So, this was the first day of a hiking trip with your cousin Jessica and your friend James. Did you know at that point that Hadi was missing? I mean, this was a hike that you guys were planning to do. It wasn't a search mission.

JD: I had been, yeah, looking forward to this hike for a while. It was just one night camping, and it's like a loop trail of, of all the peaks there in the national park. So, we had no idea what we're getting ourselves into. We had seen the news stories. We'd seen it on social media. We're well aware of him being missing. And actually, just before we left, I think we said something like, you know, wouldn't it be amazing if we ran into him on our hike? [chuckling].

NK: Oh!

JD: Honestly, like, I still can't really believe it actually happened. It was just such a crazy, you know, miracle that it actually happened.

NK: So, just take us through, you know, on the trail with you a little bit in the moments before you actually spotted him. What was happening?

JD: We, we'd done a lot of uphill climbing. We've just been to a place called the Blue Lake. And then straight after that, we continued uphill, and we're heading towards another peak. And halfway up, there's just this section of the mountain where it was flat and you kind of had to walk off the track a little bit to a sort of outlook to look down into the valley. So James, my friend, he was already looking at the view, and Jess and I were coming up to him. And it was sort of, you know, trying to take some pictures of the landscape.

NK: Yeah.

JD: And, and as James is sort of looking at the view, he can hear someone shouting. So, he looks down, and he just sees, you know, a dot of a person on, on the sort of ridge that's in the valley below, a fairway down. Like, a few hundred metres down or something, it felt like. We couldn't quite make it out. And so, we sort of shouted out, are you injured? Are you, do you need help? And then, we sort of thought we could hear him saying, yeah, I need help. So, we slowly climbed down to him, and he's still sort of slowly climbing up to us.

NK: And when you say climbing, are you scaling rock face or is it just sort of trail?

JD: No. Well, it's a grass, it's like a grassy hill.

NK: Okay.

JD: But it's very steep. Yeah, you wouldn't want to go, [chuckling] you wouldn't want to do it. It was an odd place to see a person.

NK: Right.

JD: You wouldn't expect to see a person down there. And so, we kind of met halfway in the middle. And we're looking at him, and I think he said to us, you know, what day is it? And my cousin Jess had seen a picture of him in the national park sort of getting a pass to come into the national park. So, his face was like fresh in her memory. And so, she recognized, I mean, I was already thinking it, like, what if this is actually that lost hiker? [chuckling]

NK: Oh my goodness.

JD: And, and then, we said to him, yeah, what's your name? And he said, Hadi. And, and we just went, whoa. Like, this is actually, this is it. [chuckling] This is the one.

NK: Jessica actually described the moment to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Let's just play that for our listeners as well.

SOUNDCLIP

JESSICA DART: When we finally got closer, I said, you went missing on Boxing Day, right? And he's like, yeah, I've been out here for eight days. All I've eaten is two Muesli bars. I showed him the calendar on my phone. I was like, It's the 8th of January; you've been out here for 13 days. And he just burst, we both burst into tears and, like, hugged each other.

NK: Two Muesli bars.

JD: Yeah, it was just such a, he just fell into Jess's arms and was sitting on the hill there and just hugging and crying. And, and the Muesli bars, that was just one small part of the story. [chuckling] But it's certainly not how he survived. You can go a long time without, without food, but he did manage to get water as well. And it's crazy, though, to think that amount of time, like, he'd been through such an incredible experience.

NK: He had, there was there was a creek. He found a creek?

JD: Yeah, a creek. And I'm sure there's a lot of other aspects to it. [chuckling] But, it's just remarkable.

NK: Yeah. And he had a close call, as I understand. He had seen helicopters, and was, was trying to wave, but they didn't see him. I mean, just to think of that is agonizing as well.

JD: Oh, it would just, it would tease you, wouldn't it? [chuckling] Just when, you'd just think this is it, I'm going to get rescued, and they can't even see you. I mean, I mean, he was wearing good clothing for bush walking in, and then he had, like, gaiters on his, like, around his ankles. He had good shoes, He had long pants. He had a long, long-sleeved shirt. And he had, like, a bandana kind of thing around his head. But they were all kind of dark green colours. So, it would be so hard to spot him from a helicopter. So, after all that, I called 000, which is, which is our emergency services number, and they came in hardly any time at all with the helicopter coming, and coming down to, to winch him out. And then, as that happened, another, all these hikers that were around us, they all sort of saw what was happening, and they were, were coming down, too. And they were, the whole group of hikers were offering water and food and doing whatever they could. And one of them offered their phone, so he could, he could call his family. And we got to hear him talk to his family for the first time. And the emotion in it, and just the, [happy laughter] oh, it was amazing. It was just like, it was just such a special moment, yeah.

NK: I can only imagine his mother, his parents hear, you know, his family hearing his voice.

JD: Yeah. Yeah. For the first time after all that time, I couldn't believe it. And remarkably, he was, he was in good spirits. He was very positive. He was very with it. And I really think that went a long way to his survival, too. You know, he had a really good attitude. He was just so thankful, too. Like, he was thanking all of us. When the helicopter came over, he got up and he started shaking all our hands, saying, thank you. And maybe it was just the adrenaline. And we're just like, you know --

NK: Well, one would feel very grateful in that moment, I bet.

JD: Yeah. Well, we just said, you know, let's just sit down and wait for them to come to us. [laughing] You know, we don't need to rush.

NK: Oh, I think he might have had a bit of a rush, yeah. How, how, has this at all, Josh, changed how you think about hiking or prepare for hiking? I mean, you're out there again, right?

JD: Yeah, I myself, I've had, I mean, I had a moment where I injured my foot in the bush, and I had to have paramedics come and find me. It can be dangerous, no doubt. But I think you just got to be prepared. And it's inspiring. I think it's a really inspiring story because he's, you know, persevered and, and got through all the cold nights and hot days, and, yeah, it's amazing.

NK: Well, Josh, I hope you all get to, to reconnect, and I hope he, he gets well fast. Thanks for this, Josh.

JD: No worries. Thank you.

CH: Joshua Dart found hiker Hadi Nazari, who had been missing in Kosciuszko Park for 13 days. We reached Mr. Dart in Bega, Australia.

[heist music?]

Scottish Leafs Fan

CH: If you're a Toronto Maple Leafs fan, I don't have to tell you it takes a lot of hope, patience, and guts to cheer for that particular team. The good news is they're at the top of the Atlantic Division right now. The bad news is they ended a five-game winning streak by losing to the Carolina Hurricanes last night. There's also the haunting fact that the Leafs haven't won a Stanley Cup since 1967. But who's counting? Not Ryan McCue. He's been a Leafs fan since his early teens in Scotland. And after spending 15 years staying up till the early hours in the morning to watch live games on TV, he has now come to Toronto for the real thing. Tomorrow night, Mr. McCue will watch his beloved team play the Vancouver Canucks at Scotiabank Arena. And he's bringing a flag he had made for the occasion. Earlier today, he explained how he decided to dedicate himself to the Leafs.

SOUNDCLIP

RYAN MCCUE: So, my story of how I fell in love with the Leafs is also kind of the story of how I fell in love with hockey because it's a minority sport in Scotland. But it was, I think, 2009. I was about 13 or so. I had some spare pocket money, and I decided to spend it on video games. Went to the shop, and I found this, like, cheap NHL game. It was NHL 2K7.

RAMRAAJH SHARVENDIRAN: Okay.

RM: I picked it up, got home, put it in the X-Box. The first thing it asked me was, what's your favourite team? And I hadn't heard of, like, any of them. I'd maybe heard of the New York Rangers because of friends. And then, I saw the Toronto Maple Leafs, and I thought, I've got relatives in Toronto. So, like, I'll pick them. [RS laughs] And then, I basically played this game all summer. I couldn't put it down. And then, I just became more interested in hockey. And I started reading more about the Leafs, and about how, you know, they're one of the sort of more historic franchises that are an Original Six team. I think even just reading about, you know, the fact that they hadn't won the Cup -- still haven't won the Cup since '67. And I think in a weird way, that sort of resonated with me because it was like, you kind of back them. You want to see them win the Cup, right?

RS: Wow!

RM: And I think from there, yeah, I've just been a Leafs fan ever since.

RS: I got to see, you have a flag in front of you.

RM: Yeah, that's right.

RS: Can you show it to me?

RM: Yeah.

RS: So, wow, it's, it's massive. Can you describe what's on it?

RM: Yeah. So, it's the, it's the Scottish flag -- the blue and white cross -- and it's got the Leafs' logo in the middle. And it says, "From Scotland to Scotiabank" and underneath, "'Mon, the Leafs". So, it's a very Scottish thing to support your team to say, "'Mon, the [insert team name]".

RS: What does that mean?

RM: It's just like, come on, come on, the Leafs, essentially. Like, "Go Leafs, go".

RS: Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, so when it comes to the appeal of the Leafs, local fans are getting tired. They get this routine, but they keep coming back.

RM: Yeah.

RS: What's your pitch to people who have given up on the Leafs, on, on why they should still root for this team?

RM: Because, I think, when the Leafs win the Cup, it will just, it'll all be worth it. Like, all of these years of pain and suffering, and you'll just think, yeah, I was there through thick and thin. And, you know, we've reached this sort of zenith. And yeah, that's it. It will happen eventually. Maybe not this year, maybe not next year. But it has got to happen eventually.

RS: One day. One day.

RM: Yeah, exactly.

CH: Toronto Maple Leafs fan Ryan McCue from Glasgow, Scotland speaking with Ramraajh Sharvendiran of Metro Morning about his love for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

[ambient]

Part 3: L.A. Fires: Altadena, Temperature Record

L.A. Fires: Altadena

Guest: Claire Woolner

CH: Fires continue to rage across Los Angeles today -- with curfew orders in place and police threatening to arrest anyone discovered in a mandatory evacuation zone. The Palisades fire remains the largest of the five fires still threatening the city. But as we go to air, the Eaton fire north of Pasadena has now burned nearly 14,000 acres and is just three per cent contained. And it has destroyed nearly all of L.A.'s Altadena neighbourhood. That means countless homes and countless businesses -- Restaurants, salons, hardware stores -- all reduced to ash. And with them, people's livelihoods -- and life's work. Claire Woolner is the co-owner of a community theatre called Public Displays of Altadena -- or "PDA" -- which set up shop inside a now-demolished strip mall just two years ago. We reached her in Orange, California.

NK: Claire, what is left of PDA today?

CLAIRE WOOLNER: Um, I, from a video that I saw, there's a stack of the skeletons of some of our metal chairs that were stacked on the side. And that's, that's all that I know of so far.

NK: On a good day, though, Claire, at its best, what is PDA like?

CW: It's a space that my best friend, Kevin Krieger, and I created to, because we're both artists and performers in Los Angeles. And during the pandemic, a lot of our creative spaces had closed, a lot of performance spaces. And ourselves and our community needed somewhere new to go. So, Kevin and I sort of accidentally created what became a hub for, really, like an incubator for creating new theatrical and clown work. It ended up attracting people like Maria Bamford, Melissa Villaseñor, Fred Armisen. These people who we had no expectation would end up coming and doing shows in our 40-seat storefront that we turned into a theatre. So, I think, I mean, on its best days, like, you go there, and you see someone you don't know doing some of the weirdest, most bizarre work you've ever seen. And then, you go next door to my cousin; my cousin, Jamie Woolner, had a pizza place which now has burned on also.

NK: Oh, I'm sorry.

CW: You get pizza. And then, you come back over, and you see Maria Bamford in a theatre of 40 people. You know, i mean, it became a very special place for new work and for some really established comics to work out new material for themselves as well.

NK: Have you heard from, from some of those folks as the news gets out?

CW: I mean, I've heard from all of them, yeah. What, really, the last couple of days have shown is that so many people from people who created their first new shows and felt the courage to be able to get on stage, to people like Maria, who have become, you know, friends have just expressed, like, the questions [begining to cry] have just been like, how can we help you? What can we do? What do you need? Like, I've just been, and I'm like, oh my God, this is this teeny, little nothing theatre space. This, this is a little box of crap that [chuckling] kept us and our friends painted, and put lights in, and did, and it has become, over the last year-and-a-half, a buzzing hub of creativity for hundreds of people in Los Angeles.

NK: That means something.

CW: It's wild.

NK: That means something to people.

CW: It's incredible. So, I mean, you know, like, we started a GoFundMe, and people have already donated, like, $15,000. [sniffle] People are just, like, where other, all these other theatres and theatre makers around are reaching out to us and saying like, hey, if you need, because we have friends who do workshops and things there, they're saying like, hey, how can we help you to relocate? I'm just feeling like this thing that I had no idea affected so many people actually did. And, yeah, I'm just feeling, like, a little overwhelmed and grateful, you know? And sad. Really sad.

NK: Yeah. That's, that's a heavy mix of emotions. And it's understandable that you're feeling those emotions right now. You're also seven-and-a-half months pregnant, as I understand it.

CW: I'm seven-and-a-half months pregnant. [laughing] Yeah, so, I've actually, you can ask my husband. I cry like this basically every day, but -- [both laugh]

NK: That's not why we raise the fact that you're pregnant. [CW laughs] But, of course, a comedian is going to make us laugh in the middle of this horrible crisis [CW laughs some more] in their lives. How, but as you, as you try to plan, I know you said damage control. Now, you're feeling the emotions. Then, you have to start looking forward. You have those donations, which sounds great.

CW: Yeah.

NK: Where does insurance come in?

CW: Well, we have to call our insurance people today. Yesterday, we were just dealing with fielding everything. But, you know, I actually am going to make a call to someone first because, unfortunately, as I'm sure you've heard, a lot of people have been getting really screwed over by their insurance.

NK: They're being rejected.

CW: So, they're being rejected, yes. And so, I, I got a number from a friend of mine who also is an artist and a small business owner. And he said, you know, call me before you talk with your insurance company. There's a lot of ways, I guess, that you're supposed to answer a question. I'm like, I'm a clown. Like, Kevin and I are clowns. I don't know how to deal with, we don't know how to run a business, let alone a business that is burned to the ground. So, I'm going to call him and see what he said because I guess there's, you know, insurance doesn't actually want to give you money. I don't know if anyone knew that, but --

NK: Vice President Kamala Harris, I believe, was speaking yesterday about that issue. So, you're certainly not alone in that aspect of things.

CW: Yes. You know, my, my husband's parents' house burned down also in the Palisades.

NK: I'm sorry.

CW: So, I know it's like insane -- 30 years living in a house.

NK: Where are they staying now?

CW: They're at my mom's place in the Marina.

NK: Your home in Highland Park is, is okay, as I understand it. Is that still the case?

CW: I'm pretty sure it's okay, yeah. We're going to drive back there today. I've heard from friends who are over there that, you know, there haven't been fires. There's just a lot of smoke. And the air's, the air quality is really bad, which, of course, also being seven-and-a-half months pregnant --

NK: Yeah, you have to be careful.

CW: You have to be more careful about. My husband, actually, I'm sitting outside of a Home Depot right now in Orange because he went in to go find respirator masks because he's going to go with his dad to their place to see what's still there. And I know Bud Diaz, our manager, is going to go to PDA to see what's there. But you, you know, have to wear, like, a respirator mask if you're going to be amongst the rubble.

NK: You're getting in your car now, or your husband is?

CW: He, he just got in his car, yeah. So, we're going to go back to our place right now with these masks and see what the situation is. And then, evaluate the next thing, you know? I have plenty of friends who have said, you know, you can come, you can come here, or we can go on the couch at my mom's place in the Marina. So, I don't know yet.

NK: Yeah. Well, Claire, I will let you both get back on the road. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for this, Claire. Take care.

CW: You take care, too. Take it easy. And I hope everyone just wears masks and drinks water and self-regulates, you know? Takes care of themselves.

NK: You especially. You take care.

CW: Yes, I will. Thank you very much. Nice to talk to you. You take care. Bye.

LAUREN MCCALLUM: Now, this is, this is obviously a major operation. Do we know the damage to the plane?

CT: Yes. On the left side of the, when you're sitting in the pilot's seat on the left side of the plane, that wing has a fairly substantial hole in the leading edge of it. And it is going to, I don't know, unfortunately, I'm not an aircraft person, but I don't know if they're going to have to replace the whole wing or if they can just replace that part of the plane? I don't know what control mechanisms were there. But I know that plane, they're going to have to rebuild that and then have it tested and certified to fly again. Now, with this, since it struck a plane, if they find this person, I can't imagine that they wouldn't try to make this person pay, pay the money, restitution for the, for the damage done to the plane. These are multimillion-dollar aircraft. And it is illegal to fly a drone in the area. And this is the perfect reason why. It starts at a $75,000 fine and up to one year in prison. Not just jail, in prison. And they will go after, and they will prosecute this person.

CH: Christopher Thomas is a public information officer for the Palisades Fire in California. He spoke with the CBC's Lauren McCallum in Montreal.

[ambient]

FOA: Robert Smalls Statue

CH: Around the grounds of South Carolina's capital building there are dozens of statues of figures from the state's past. Among them, a number of white supremacists and segregationists. And now, the state is planning to add a new statue to honour an African American who escaped slavery and fought against the Confederacy: Robert Smalls. He was an American hero, who helped enslaved people get to freedom, and later fought for Black civil rights as a U.S. congressman. But after his death in 1915, that legacy went largely overlooked. So, this statue will mean some welcome, if overdue, recognition. And it's not the only recent acknowledgment of Mr. Smalls' long list of contributions to the United States. In April, 2023, Nil spoke to his great-great-grandson, Michael B. Moore -- when a U.S. Navy ship was renamed to honour Robert Smalls.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Michael, how are you feeling today knowing that this change has happened and that there is a Navy ship in the U.S. Navy now named for your great-great-grandfather?

MICHAEL B. MOORE: It is a great honour. It's a particular honour, you know, because, you know, he was a sailor, he was a captain. He was the first African-American to command a United States naval vessel. And for them to honour Robert in this way, it's really very, very special.

NK: Let's talk about the history of Robert Smalls and the United States and how he made his way to freedom during the Civil War.

MBM: Yeah. So, Robert was enslaved. He was born in 1839. He was born in Buford, South Carolina. And when he was 12, he was sent to work in Charleston, which is about a hundred miles away. And he worked on the docks, working on a boat called The Planter. He, he worked, got a wage and had his wages sent back to his master. You know, fast forward a little bit, was married and had two young children. And, look, I think it all comes down to the fact that he really, really loved his family, and he knew that they could be separated from him in an instant just through the institution of slavery. That he could be sold away or that his wife and children could be sold away. And he wanted to do whatever he could to preserve the family. And he was a pilot on this boat, The Planter, the Confederate crew that were supposed to be on The Planter at all times. They left for the night, went into town. And he knew that there was a United States federal blockade just outside the mouth of Charleston Harbour.

NK: Yeah.

MBM: Robert got the other enslaved crew, and they all got their families. He put on the top hat and the long coat of the Confederate captain, and because he was the pilot of the boat, he knew the various passcodes to be allowed to pass by the five forts that were in Charleston Harbour. And he took off and, and sailed the boat to freedom. And that was the start of a really, you know, miraculous life of achievement and consequence.

NK: It is an understatement to say what he did was risky. What kind of fate would Mr. Smalls and the crew have faced had they been caught?

MBM: Yeah, it was. There's no question they knew going into this that it was, they were either the next day, the next morning, they were either going to be free, or they were going to be dead. It was a life-or-death proposition. They knew that if they got caught that they would be executed, and not just executed, but in a particularly gruesome and public way to dissuade others from trying something like that. So they actually lined the bottom of the boat with dynamite. They all committed that if they got caught, they were going to blow the boat up and, of course, themselves with it. So, it was a life-or-death proposition. You know, Robert bet everything he was, everything he had, on everything he dreamed of that night and morning. And he won.

NK: And then, he went on to live a quite an illustrious life, many achievements after he made his way to freedom.

MBM: Yeah, he, he, he, he absolutely just lived a tremendous life of, of consequence. He, he got a reward for delivering The Planter to the United States. He could have lived comfortably with that, but he actually went back and fought for the freedom of others. He, as mentioned, became the first African-American to command the United States naval vessel, was a captain of The Planter, which was the, the vessel that he used to, to achieve his freedom. He actually was taken to Washington, D.C. where he convinced President Lincoln to allow formerly enslaved men into the United States kind of war effort. Historians say that added an extra 180,000 or so men and was really material in the United States prevailing in the Civil War. After the war, after the Civil War, he went back to his hometown of Buford, got involved in politics. He was really just an enormously famous sort of person, a celebrity, so to speak, for back in the day and, and leveraged that in political office. He served first in the South Carolina legislature. And there, he actually wrote the legislation to create the first free, compulsory statewide public school system, of course, there in South Carolina. But it was the first in the country. And so, in a way, he is the father of public school education in the United States. He was a major general in the South Carolina militia. He founded the Republican Party in the state of South Carolina. You know, he just did so many things. He was a member of constitutional conventions, a number of constitutional conventions. And then, of course, he was elected to Congress, to the United States House of Representatives, where he served five terms during reconstruction.

CH: That was Michael B. Moore, great-great-grandson of Robert Smalls, speaking to Nil in April 2023.

[ambient instrumental]

AFN Chief Trump

CH: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said there's "not a snowball's chance in hell" that Canada will join the U.S. Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre said it will never happen. Period. And NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh said, "no Canadian wants to join you" -- in response to President-Elect Donald Trump repeatedly floating the idea of Canada as the 51st state. Today, another leader weighed in on Mr. Trump's comments. This is Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak, the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations.

SOUNDCLIP

CINDY WOODHOUSE NEPINAK: As national chief, found that very offensive and alarming statements recently made by President-Elect about his desire to force Canada to become part of the United States of America through economic coercion or other means. As First Nations, we reject these outlandish, disrespectful statements regarding our ancestral and traditional territories. The borders dividing Canada and the United States traverse the ancestral land and traditional territories of many Indigenous peoples, tribes, and nations. We have inhabited our lands and territories since time immemorial, long before any colonial borders were established. You know, we are people. We're tribes and nations with inherent and treaty rights as, you know, to, treaty rights to self-determination as recognized and affirmed in both the United Nations and the American Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. We have entered into several international treaties with the Crown in respect to the United Kingdom and other nations. And we have and hold constitutional recognition and protections for our inherent treaty and human rights. Many First Nations have fought as allies of the British Crown in conflicts with the United States. But First Nations have also have a long history of sacrifice, fighting for the freedoms of other nations including the United States in two world wars, in other conflicts. First Nations, you know, we retain and exercise our inherent sovereignty and self-determined rights. We will continue to fight, protect, and uphold our sacred, inherent, and inalienable rights as peoples, tribes, and nations. So, First Nations, we are also an integral to economic development on our lands and territories, as is our free prior informed consent, respecting any development or political decisions by others. And we will continue to work with, with the British Crown as treaty partners. We will work with Canada. I want to uplift Pierre Poilievre and Justin Trudeau for being united on, on this issue as well.

MARCY MARKUSA: Yeah, if I may, if I may interject, what would you say if you were to have Donald Trump's ear right now?

CWN: I would tell him, drop the 51st state bullshit and understand who your friends are. I think I would leave it at that.

CH: Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak is the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. She spoke to Marcy Markusa on Information Radio in Winnipeg today.

[ambient instrumental]

Temperature Record

Guest: Jared Rennie

CH: Hottest months. Record temperatures. Extreme weather events. For the past decade, those terms seem to have been playing on a loop. And now, the numbers are in: 2024 has officially overtaken 2023 as the hottest year on record. The data also confirm that Earth's 10 hottest years on record have all occurred within the past decade. And so, once again, as they've been doing for years now, scientists are sounding the alarm. Jared Rennie is a physical scientist with the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration -- one of several organizations to release the 2024 data today. We reached him in Asheville, North Carolina.

NK: Jared, new temperature record after new temperature record. Does it get tiring for you to have to keep delivering this kind of news?

JARED RENNIE: Yeah, it sure does. I mean, even today, it was the warmest year on record for the globe. And also, the warmest year on record for the U.S. where I live. And we keep saying every month, every year, that certain areas of the world are at its warmest. And, yeah, it gets a little tiring saying it, but it's still important to tell the story.

NK: And I'm glad we can, and I'm glad we can have this conversation with you. NOAA's numbers put 2024 temperatures, as you know, just shy of 1.5 Celsius above pre-industrial levels -- the limit set by the Paris Agreement. Other organizations put that average even higher. What do those figures suggest to you? Are people, are world leaders, countries, are we just not paying attention?

JR: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, the numbers are high regardless, you know, who's saying it. I mean, we look, we collaborate together. --The folks here at NOAA and at NASA and Copurnicous and all the places across the world. We do collaborate. But because we all have different methodologies, they do have similar but somewhat different numbers. I don't want people to harp on those numbers specifically. The important thing is that it's warm. And if you look at, and for most of the data sets, if you look at the last 10 years, they were all the top 10 warmest years. So, unfortunately, we're not heading into the right direction. As we know, a warmer climate can lead to not just warmer temperatures but the ability to hold more moisture. So we're going to see more extreme precipitation across the world. It does lead to more droughts across the world and more extreme events. So, unfortunately, we are, regardless of which data set you're looking at, we're not, we're not headed in the right direction.

NK: And we're certainly seeing the impacts all the time in the conversations we have on the show, world events, certainly. You're in Asheville, as we've said. We certainly covered the aftermath of Hurricane Helene there. Experiencing that, seeing that unfold in your own backyard, NOAA offices, in fact, were affected. How did that hit you?

JR: It hit pretty hard. And we are more than 100 days after the event, and it's still affecting us one way or another. As you mentioned, our data centre is located in downtown Asheville, North Carolina. We were not directly impacted by flooding, but we did lose power and we lost water because we rely on municipal water. And when a data centre does not have water, there are issues. We have tonnes and tonnes of data in our building, and we need power and water to keep it running. So, we were down for a few weeks. But it was interesting because a lot of people, Asheville, North Carolina, we're sort of nestled in the mountains of southern Appalachia. And a lot of people thought, well, we were kind of a climate haven. A lot of people moved here thinking that. Unfortunately, precipitation from hurricanes are our biggest threat. And it rained for three or four or five days. We had over, you know, a foot or two of rainfall, depending on where you were. And there were people who work for NOAA and others, all of our friends and families, that were affected by this.

NK: You mentioned the awakening that Helene was for some people who thought they were in a climate haven. Beyond that, though, locally, have you seen and heard conversations about climate change shift? Is there a different kind of understanding or even acceptance that you didn't see before?

JR: Yeah, we've been talking to a lot of people here. And, you know, the word one-in-1,000-year flooding at that keeps coming up because that was the type of a flooding event that we had here. And that's sort of a hard thing to convey to the public because people think, oh, because it happened this year, it's going to, it won't happen for another 1,000 years. Well, that's not essentially the case. It's, it's describing a probability, meaning the chances that it could happen. While it's a low chance, it could still happen every year. And with a warmer climate, which is what we're seeing, we're seeing the ability to hold more moisture in the atmosphere. So, these types of events, the rainfall before the hurricane and even the hurricane itself, they're just going to keep happening more frequently for the rest of the century. So, you know, this event will happen again. It's just a question of are we going to be prepared for it?

NK: You talk about how difficult it can be to keep having to tell the story that it's important still to do that, obviously, to keep reminding people of where we're at and where we're heading. How do you fight the fatigue that people have to hearing it, you know, to writing it off?

JR: It's hard.

NK: Yeah.

JR: Yeah, it's, it's hard. Climate fatigue is a real thing. People, not just here in Asheville, but around the U.S., and around North America, and the world, they keep hearing these things over and over again. The warmest year, you know, over and over again. We keep hearing these reports from, you know, the IPCC and the National Climate Assessment to talk about the 1.5-degree threshold over and over again. And that, on top of all the other things going on in the world, we sort of become numb to it, and it becomes hard to continuously convey this information to the public. And you've got to keep at it, trying to find ways to make the data, you know, visually pleasing. Or finding stats, statistics to make it relatable to kitchen table issues. You know, just because, you know, climate change, you know, a lot of people think it's a polar bear problem, but it's really not. It's a here problem, and it's a now problem. So, you have to relate it to kitchen table issues like agriculture or energy. You know, we talk about Asheville, right now, we're under winter weather. It's really cold here. So, energy companies have to start thinking about how the energy demand changes not only in the wintertime but in the summertime when we have warming temperatures. So, or how our, how food is produced and transported across the U.S. Weather impacts our lives and climate impacts our lives, and it's important to try to integrate that climate data and people's personal lives in order for people to really care about what we have to say.

NK: Jared, I appreciate your time. Thanks for this.

JR: Thank you.

CH: Jared Rennie is a physical scientist with the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. We reached him in Asheville, North Carolina.

The AIH Transcript For January 10, 2025

Social Sharing