Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2025

The AIH transcript for January 07, 2025

For more episodes of this podcast, please click this link.

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[theme]

CH: Tonight:

NK: Going pro-rogue. With Parliament on hold and the government in limbo, former Conservative Cabinet Minister Lisa Raitt believes Canada is in a vulnerable position when it comes to the incoming U.S. administration.

CH: Doctor's orders. The head of Physicians for Human Rights Israel calls for the release of a doctor detained by the IDF, after a December raid on what was at the time the last major hospital still operating in North Gaza.

NK: For your mis-information. An early Facebook investor -- and a former mentor of Mark Zuckerberg's -- tells us what he thinks about Meta's decision to end third party fact-checking on its platforms.

CH: Low-hanging fruit. When we heard about the mystery of a plate of peeled bananas appearing monthly on a British street corner, we had a bunch of questions.

NK: Weak at the sneeze, Part One. The mayor of small Italian village issues a decree ordering residents not to become seriously ill -- and he was only half-joking.

CH: And...weak at the sneeze, part two. A scientist explains how one charismatic sea sponge helped her understand their shockingly slow sneezes -- and cast a real expel on her.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday Edition. Radio that makes an educated guess-undheit.

Part 1: Trump Threat: Raitt, Meta Ends Fact Checking, Peeled Banana Phantom

Trump Threat: Raitt

Guest: Lisa Raitt

CH: The good news is that Donald Trump isn't threatening to invade Canada. The bad news is that the inbound U.S. president is talking about another kind of takeover. At a press conference today in Florida, Mr. Trump did speculate about using military force to acquire Greenland and Panama. And then, he was asked this about the United States' neighbour to the north.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: If you were to work under the assumption that you're serious about making Canada 51st state of the United States, the leader of the Conservative Party of Canada said under no circumstance would they ever be the 51st state.

DONALD TRUMP: Then maybe he won't win, but maybe he will. I don't care.

REPORTER: You had suggested --

DT: Listen, I don't care what he says.

REPORTER: But sir, real fast, you said you're considering military force to acquire Panama and Greenland. Are you also considering military force to annex and acquire Canada.

DT: No, economic force. Because Canada and the United States, that would really be something. You get rid of that artificially drawn line, and you take a look at what that looks like, and it would also be much better for national security. Don't forget, we basically protect Canada.

CH: U.S. President-Elect Donald Trump speaking this afternoon in Florida. Lisa Raitt is a former Conservative cabinet minister who's now the vice-chair of global investment banking at CIBC Capital Markets. We reached her in Toronto.

NK: Lisa Raitt, that is Donald Trump being Donald Trump, certainly, in that clip there and throughout that news conference. But do you hear tangible threats to really worry about there?

LISA RAITT: I think you always have to worry about something that the incoming president of the United States says, regardless of whether or not you view it to be something that's not going to happen, whether or not you overreact to it is something that you keep in for yourself. I would say that I wouldn't necessarily overreact, but I also wouldn't under react on this one either. I think he's hardening his position. Something that he may have thought was a funny throwaway line a couple of weeks ago about Canada becoming its 51st state, seems to have taken some kind of route and is growing a little bit. And I would be concerned about that if I were sitting in Ottawa right now.

NK: So, what then could any Canadian government do, given what you've just said, given that he, he believes economic force is the answer? Tariffs are beautiful, as he said before, that that are certainly lucrative for the U.S. government when they're in place.

LR: Listen, it's going to be the same playbook regardless. You're going to have to make sure that you use all the connectivity you have across the border at every level of Canadian civil society, be it at the top level of the government, at the provincial level, with states, the business community, civil society in general, in order to make the case to Americans in writ large that the economic relationship between Canada and the United States would be terribly disrupted by the imposition of tariffs and it would not be good for either country. We don't seem to be getting anywhere on that argument right now, quite frankly. His position, as I said at the beginning, seems to have hardened significantly. And we have two more weeks to go until he is sworn in as the president of the United States.

NK: Do you feel that Canada might be more vulnerable with Parliament prorogued right now and a prime minister and a government in limbo at the moment?

LR: I do. I do. I think I would have preferred an election than I would have a prorogation. And I guess the reason being is that there's going to be a muddying of the water of who is going to speak for Canada. I mean, Mr. Trudeau is going to be the prime minister until the new leader of the Liberal Party comes in. That could be March 23rd. That could be before that date. But certainly, it's a short period of time. If we need to negotiate now vis a vis Canada and the United States, do you really think that whatever deal Mr. Trudeau is able to get, if he can get a deal, is going to be one that the next iteration of an administration is going to implement? So there's just so much uncertainty around who the United States would be negotiating with or who it would be speaking with that it makes it more difficult. And, in fact, if you talk to Chris Sands from the Canada Institute in Washington, he said exactly the same thing this morning on a call. He said, look, the number one thing Americans want to know is who do we talk to? And right now, between prorogation and this new leadership race, they don't know who it is that is going to be the best person to speak with in order to get through these really big difficulties we're having.

NK: We're seeing reports that cabinet members are going to fan out across the U.S. trying to continue that connectivity you mentioned earlier in our conversation just in the last little while. The prime minister wrote on social media, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Canada would become part of the United States. Workers and communities in both our countries benefit from being each other's biggest trading and security partner. Mélanie Joly wrote President-Elect Trump's comments show a complete lack of understanding of what makes Canada a strong country. Our economy is strong. Our people are strong. We will never back down in the face of threat. So, you're seeing tougher talk. We can talk about the motivations from either person at this particular time in Canadian political history. But will that kind of talk and that kind of, those kind of trips from current cabinet ministers achieve what you think they should achieve at this particular point?

LR: I don't think they have any choice but to make those trips, and I think they should, first of all. Secondly, as for the tough talk, Mr. Trudeau's got nothing to lose by saying those kinds of words, but he also has nothing that he can implement right now. He is a lame duck prime minister right now, and he has the luxury, quite frankly, from a personal point of view, of being able to make these kind of inflammatory statements because he's not going to be around to deal with the ramifications later. I don't think what he said was particularly inflammatory, by the way. I think that is a natural reaction that you would hear from anybody in Canada. The diplomacy is certainly gone. But again, he has very limited power to be able to direct or even to implement whatever it is that they're going to be seeking. I'll give you an example. You think it's bad now talking about the economy. If Mr. Trump on day one decides to give the power and the ability to his borders czar to start deportations of people that they deem to be not in the United States properly, there will be a rush and a pressure on our border. That may be something that you would possibly need legislation for or that you would need extraordinary powers for. And our Parliament is prorogued right now. So, there's going to be a period of time where we may be dealing with situations that we have no legislative ability to respond to, and a prime minister who is not going to necessarily be there in the long run. And, unfortunately, a cabinet which will most likely be out campaigning to be the next leader.

NK: There's a lot at stake, certainly. So, for our listeners across Canada and businesses across Canada, what would you say to them in this time of uncertainty?

LR: Well, I would say first and foremost, Canada is the best country in the world. Absolutely. And that we can get through anything. And we will get through anything. But we also have to be clear-eyed about the fact that this isn't something that you should just fluff off. You have to take it seriously and you have to make sure that you put your best effort forward. It is unfortunate we are in a situation where there is so much, I would say, fluidity in terms of who our leadership is. That will all settle. But as Canadians, we have to be prepared for an impact on our daily lives as a result. And the Canadian government has estimated that the imposition of these tariffs may have an impact as much as 3.5 per cent on our GDP. That puts us into a recession, and we have to be mindful in aware of that. Harder times may come, and how tied we are to the United States. But if sovereignty is on the line as the negotiation point, I'm pretty sure where all of Canada stands on that.

NK: Lisa Raitt, thank you for your time.

LR: You bet. Thank you.

CH: Lisa Raitt is a former Conservative cabinet minister and now the vice-chair of global investment banking at CIBC Capital Markets. We reached her in Toronto.

[indie rock]

Meta Ends Fact Checking

Guest: Roger McNamee

CH: No one has ever complained that there's not enough speech on social media. Nevertheless, Meta has announced that it's taking bold new steps to allow "more speech" on its platforms. The parent company of Facebook and Instagram announced content moderation changes today, including an end to its third-party fact-checking program. It says it will move to a Community Notes model instead, that will rely on input from users -- similar to the system on the Elon Musk-owned X. A spokesperson told the CBC the changes won't apply in Canada, for now...just the U.S. These moderation changes come as the relationship between Donald Trump and Mark Zuckerberg is changing too. The incoming U.S. president once threatened to throw the Meta CEO in prison for life. But late last year, the two men ate together at Mar-a-Lago. And Meta has also pledged a million dollars to Mr. Trump's inauguration fund. As he announced today's changes, Mr. Zuckerberg mentioned politics.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK ZUCKERBERG: There's been widespread debate about potential harms from online content. Governments and legacy media have pushed to censor more and more. A lot of this is clearly political, but there's also a lot of legitimately bad stuff out there, drugs, terrorism, child exploitation. These are things that we take very seriously, and I want to make sure that we handle responsibly. So, we built a lot of complex systems to moderate content. But the problem with complex systems is they make mistakes. Even if they accidentally censor just one per cent of posts, that's millions of people. And we've reached a point where it's just too many mistakes and too much censorship. The recent elections also feel like a cultural tipping point towards once again prioritizing speech. So we're gonna get back to our roots and focus on reducing mistakes, simplifying our policies, and restoring free expression on our platforms.

CH: Roger McNamee was an early investor in Facebook and a former mentor of Mark Zuckerberg. He's the author of Zucked: Waking Up to the Facebook Catastrophe and a member of the Real Facebook Oversight Board, a coalition that's critical of Big Tech. We reached him earlier today.

NK: Roger, what do you think when you hear that, when Mark Zuckerberg says Meta needs less fact checking, more free speech? Is that what Meta is really doing here?

ROGER MCNAMEE: I think Mark Zuckerberg is having the time of his life. He's had a dream for many years that Facebook would become the one global communications network. And when it reached that point, that it would, in a sense, replace many of the systems on which our societies are built. So, the media and some forms of government. And I think Zuck now perceives that with the election of Trump, that the obstacles to that goal in the United States have disappeared. And that there are no longer any reasons to pretend that Facebook is neutral, no reasons to pretend that it is pro-democracy, no reasons to pretend that it has any obligations at all to society. He just wants to go out there and exert his will.

RM: I don't think, unless you're, unless you're Mark Zuckerberg. And unless your goal is to destroy journalism and to undermine democracy, there's no way to view this as a positive. You know, what Mark and his equivalents at some of the other social media companies have been doing for the last 20 years is undermining the economics and the core values of journalism around the world. And they've been incredibly successful. They've taken away most of the economics of the industry. They have cut off the distribution. And increasingly, they have used their power to essentially emasculate what was left of the free press. And we're in a position now where, you know, when Mark says something like that, you just have to remember it's completely self-serving. You know, he just believes his vision is so important that nothing else matters.

NK: There's been talk and articles, articles written about how this is emulating X. He refers to acts as well, the platform formerly known as Twitter, making similar moves. There was certainly a lot of backlash and a lot of people leaving that platform. Do you think that there'll be a similar backlash here?

RM: We can only hope so. I think that in the United States for certain, I would encourage Canada and countries around the world to reassess their relationship to technology products. And to recognize that the interests of big tech are misaligned with democracy and misaligned with civil rights. And the only way we're going to recover democracy or keep it if we're Canada, the only way we're going to recover our civil rights around the world is if we forgo some of the convenience that these products offer in exchange for regaining more autonomy in our lives, more control over our lives. You know, that's something that I have tried in my own life. You know, since I became an activist eight years ago, I stopped using all Google products except for YouTube, and I stopped using all Meta products. And at the beginning, it was inconvenient. But there are workarounds for everything. And it turns out that my life is perfectly reasonable without those things. And I'm being surveilled much less than I used to be. And, I think, influenced by them much less than I used to be.

NK: Is that your advice to, to, to users?

Peeled Banana Phantom

Guest: Cassie Brummitt

CH: There are a great many landmarks one might choose to see in Nottinghamshire. There's the Attenborough Nature Reserve -- named for its founder, Sir David Attenborough. There's Sherwood Forest -- whose hedges and trees once concealed Robin Hood and his Merry Men. And there's any number of perfectly lovely museums, churches and gardens. It's England. But at the corner of Abbey Road and Wensor Avenue in the of Beeston, Nottinghamshire a very different attraction has been fascinating and frightening residents. And now, after years of appearing at said intersection every month, this attraction has also begun appearing in newspaper headlines far and wide. Cassie Brummitt is a local resident who said of the landmark on Facebook, quote, "I don't understand it but I really want to." Unquote. We reached her in Beeston.

NK: Cassie, if we were to meet up at the corner of Abbey and Wensor on the second of every month, what would we see?

CASSIE BRUMMITT: We would see a very strange sight. A bowl of peeled bananas, maybe 10, 15, 20, all in a pile.

NK: That many just sitting there?!

CB: Sometimes that many, yeah. And sometimes, they'll be like a little bit less than 10. But I have seen them piled really high.

NK: And is it just a wooded area at that corner? What else, you know, just paint a picture for us of what it looks like beyond this, this offering of bananas.

CB: It's really just a residential street. It's, you know, just regular kind of houses kind of facing onto the street. But it's on the corner of a road. And the hedge kind of comes up to the corner around the corner. And the, the bananas are often sort of tucked next to the hedge. So, it does almost, like, that's why, at first, I thought maybe it was a wildlife thing because it wasn't, it's not sort of in your way as you're walking or anything like that. But yeah, the, the bowl is sort of just tucked in there, but it is quite obvious as you walk past it because, like I say, the plate, the bowl, is usually pilled quite like sort of either fresh or slightly mouldy bananas, depending on the time.

NK: Oh, I was going to say, what happens to them? I mean, does someone come and collect the garbage later? What's been happening?

CB: I don't know if, I assume either, that the person who put them out would have cleaned it up. That's what I used to assume. But having looked at, you know, some people posting on social media, it seems like sometimes members of the community come and maybe pick up the the bananas. But yeah, I have seen them in various states [chuckling] of, of decay. So, I think they stay there for a little while.

NK: And how long do you, do you reckon this has been going on.

CB: Well, I've lived in Beeston for coming up for two years now. And I think it's been happening as long as I've been there. I used to travel past the road maybe once a week when I lived in that particular part of Beeston. So, I would see them, I would see sometimes the bowl wouldn't be there, but I remember seeing it pretty early on because I remember thinking that was very strange. And I would look for every time I would go along that street.

NK: And so, the number fluctuates. You said sometimes, sometimes the plate or the bowl is there, sometimes it's not.

CB: Yeah.

NK: I mean, what's what's your best guess? There's some theories out there. Maybe it's a religious offering. Maybe it's for the animals. What do you think?

CB: Yeah, I mean, I did, I did wonder as I went past what the purpose was? And I kind of wondered if it was a, maybe a sentimental thing. Like, I don't know, like a superstition, maybe like sometimes people leave out, like, bits of food for fairies at the end of the garden, for example. [NK chuckles] Because whenever I walked by, there would always be a big plate of bananas. If there were bananas there, there would always be a big plate of them. So, it didn't look like wildlife were eating them. So, it made me think, you know, there must be some kind of symbolism to it rather than an environmental thing.

NK: And has anyone left any other clues to suggest that they might be behind these offerings?

CB: I don't think anyone knows. Or if they do, they're keeping quiet about it. But yeah, I have no idea. Like, I've heard that maybe they appear really early in the morning or late at night, so it seems kind of covert.

NK: If it's been happening for at least two years, as you say, as long as you've lived there, why do you think it's, it's getting so much attention now?

CB: Well, I think lots of people must have seen it. Because I know that, you know, I walk past it and I would look for every time I walk past it. But I think when something gets posted on social media, it helps bring people together maybe to sort of have something to talk about. I kind of wish I had more friends who lived in that area so that I had people to talk to about it. Because for a long time, I thought it was just something that I spotted as I walked along the road. [laughing] So, I hope, I hope that it's brought some people something fun to talk about.

NK: And, you know, not everyone is. You mentioned someone maybe cleaning them up. Not everyone is as curious or excited about, they might be curious. But they're certainly not as pleased about this little surprise on the second of every month. Someone put up a note saying, please respectfully, no more bananas. What do you say to those who don't love this?

CB: Yeah. It was the first time, when I saw the social media post, it was the first time that I thought that someone could be angry about it. I did see a theory that people said, as long as there's nothing, you know, in the bananas that would hurt animals, then it's okay. And I kind of agree with that. If it's just a plate of bananas that someone puts out almost ritualistically, it doesn't really hurt anyone. And it kind of brought me a little bit of joy. You know, just walking on the street, I'd sometimes think, are the bananas there today? Oh yeah, there they are. It's, it's quirky. And there's nothing wrong with things that are a little bit quirky. And, yeah, it's brought a little bit of humour, I think, to a lot of people's lives around the world now.

NK: It certainly has, Cassie. I'm glad it's bringing you some joy on the second of every month. We'll see if we get any answers to this mystery. Thank you.

CB: You're welcome. Thank you very much.

CH: Cassie Brummit hopes to solve the mystery of Beeston's bananas. We reached her in Beeston -- which, for helpful geographic reference, is about one million, two-hundred-and-twenty-four bananas due north of Reading. [NK chuckles]

[brass]

Italian Village Sick Ban

CH: Dateline: Belcastro, Italy.

[the “Dateline” theme]

CH: The mayor of this small Italian village has issued an urgent decree: under no circumstances are residents to get sick. Relatedly, they are not to leave the house too often, or travel, or play sports -- essentially, they are not to do anything that could lead them to require any kind of emergency medical assistance. Instead, the mayor recommends that citizens spend the majority of their time resting. Now, that sounds like an ideal situation -- but it's in response to an extremely un-ideal situation. Belcastro is located in Calabria -- one of the poorest regions of Italy, known for the Mafia family 'Ndrangheta. And that is where the problem lies: the region's healthcare system is in tatters, because of 'Ndrangheta, and corrupt politicians. Half of Belcastro's residents are over 65, the hospital is over an hour away, and the on-call doctor is basically over being on-call. The mayor of Belcastro pleaded with his superiors. But they didn't listen -- so he decided to issue his new rule. He describes it as, quote, "obviously a humorous provocation." Unquote. But even if it is a joke, it obviously expresses a healthy skepticism.

[country]

Part 2: Gaza Doctor Detainee, Sea Sponge Sneeze

Gaza Doctor Detainee

Guest: Guy Shalev

CH: It's an indelible image: a screenshot from a video broadcast by Al Jazeera, shortly after an Israeli raid on the Kamal Adwan hospital in North Gaza, in which a single man in a white lab coat is surrounded by wreckage. And shortly after that image was captured, so was he. The man is the director of the hospital, Dr. Hussam Abu Safiyya. Israel Defence Forces have now confirmed that he is in their custody -- one of some 240 people detained in the December 27th raid. The IDF alleges that he and other prisoners are, quote, "Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists" -- and says the hospital where he worked was being used as a, quote, "Hamas terror stronghold." Unquote. Guy Shalev is the Executive Director of Physicians for Human Rights Israel, a nonprofit organization working to help Dr. Abu Safiyya get access to a lawyer. We reached Dr. Shalev in Tel Aviv.

NK: Dr. Shalev, I'm wondering what the latest information you have about Dr. Hussam Abu Safiyya's condition and whereabouts. What have you heard?

GUY SHALEV: Actually, we don't have much information about where he is. We know that he is held by the Israeli military. We don't know in which facility. And we're still not getting approval to visit him with a lawyer. We formally requested for the military for his whereabouts. In the beginning, the response that we got is that they don't have any indication of having him. After we published that worldwide, the military rescinded that response and said that they do hold him in custody. And so, now that we know that they hold him, we still don't know where.

NK: Our listeners heard and may have seen the photograph of the doctor that has been everywhere online, certainly. And you've seen it. When you look at it, what does that image mean to you?

GS: I think it is a very meaningful image, and I think that is why it went so viral. Because it reflects, first of all, what we've been seeing in Gaza in the past 15 months, and there is an attack, a direct attack, on healthcare, a systematic attack on Gaza's healthcare system. And in that image, we see the rubble and the military tank pointing at a doctor wearing the white robe. And we see, I think, it also symbolizes the steadfast of the Gazan healthcare professionals, how they stand together with their patients, remain alongside them, treat as much as they can with no equipment, no conditions, not even being paid for that, because there's no really resources for that. And we see Dr. Hussam Abu Safiyya walking proudly to the military tank. We know that he was later arrested that day. And now, we are trying to make sure that he's safe.

NK: And he, he was working in those conditions, but also in the midst of deep personal loss.

GS: Right. He lost one of his sons and had to bury him in the hospital compound. He didn't want to leave the compound and stay with his patients. He was very insistent on staying with his patient until the last one is evacuated. And that is why I think Dr. Hussam Abu Safiyya became such a symbol of what we see as the, the ethos of the medical profession, of caring for people, of treating people, and being dedicated to your patients.

NK: If we go back to that day, December 27th, when did you first learn about the raid on Kamal Adwan -- on that hospital?

GS: So, Kamal Adwan was attacked for two months before that final raid that finally destroyed the hospital. And just two days before the raid, we submitted an appeal to the high court in Israel in order to stop the attack on the hospital. The high court didn't do anything about it, unfortunately. So, we were really in touch with them all the way until, finally, the hospital was raided and destroyed.

NK: It is destroyed. It's out of commission completely -- that hospital is. So, what does that mean, practically speaking, when it was already quite a desperate situation in northern Gaza?

GS: Yeah. So, the, the conditions in all of Gaza are, of course, desperate, but northern Gaza is in a very dire condition. Now, we know that there are between 10,000 and 15,000 still in that area with no functioning hospital, with no humanitarian aid reaching them. And we just see violation after violation of international humanitarian law. And we see, like in the case of Hussam Abu Safiyya, the forced disappearing of a lot of medical professionals and other Gazans.

NK: As you know, the IDF claims the hospital was a, quote, Hamas terror stronghold, unquote. They also allege that the doctor and other detainees are being questioned on suspicions of, of being involved with Hamas. What do you make of those allegations?

GS: We've heard these allegations again and again for the past 15 months. And the military has control over almost all the area in Gaza, and they have access to all evidence that they can show the world. And we don't see anything. We don't see anything that resembles their claims. Also, in the case of Kamal Adwan, they arrested 240 people, claiming that these are 240 terrorists. But they also showed only evidence of three pistols and four hand grenades. It doesn't make sense that a command centre with 240 terrorists have only three pistols and four hand grenades. But I mean, it's their obligation. It's their obligation under international law to show the evidence why they violated the protection of the hospital. It is not the hospital's role to do, to convince anyone. It is the aggressor is wrong to show this evidence. And we haven't seen this evidence.

NK: They also released a video today. I'm not sure if you've seen it. They allege it's a confession by a by a man who, who the IDF says is is confessing to, to working with Hamas, and says that this hospital was used in that way as well. How do you respond?

GS: Yes, we cannot accept any kind of confession that might be taken under torture. The same way, unfortunately, that israel argues that the testimonies we get from hostages, from Israeli hostages under Hamas, saying that they cannot believe whatever they say because they are under pressure and under threat. This is exactly the same case with people who are being held in Israel, investigated by the security services, tortured. I don't think this confession has much weight.

NK: The head of the World Health Organization, as you know, is calling and has repeatedly called for Dr. Abu Safiyya's release. Healthcare workers around the world are joining those calls. Are you hopeful or optimistic at all that, that all of that attention and pressure will yield something? Will lead to the doctor's release?

GS: We see people in the world getting interested. We see that Hussam Abu Safiyya has become a symbol that might. We are a bit, I guess, more optimistic because people are looking at that his condition and understanding that this is a systematic abuse of the medical, medical professionals in Gaza. But we, unfortunately, we need much more than that in order to change something. And I can only hope that maybe now we'll see more pressure on Israel to stop the attack on Gaza, release doctors and allow Gazans to rebuild their lives.

NK: Dr. Shalev, I appreciate your time. Please take care.

GS: Thank you so much.

CH: Dr. Guy Shalev is the executive Director of Physicians for Human Rights Israel. We reached him in Tel Aviv.

[folk]

Northern Budgie Returns

CH: A budgie named Blue now has some stories to tell that his Australian cousins would never believe. On Christmas Day, the little bird flew out of his home in Iqaluit when his owner, Leah Novalinga, went to run some errands. The temperature was below freezing -- plummeting to minus-30 degrees Celsius overnight. So Ms. Novalinga was sure she would never see Blue again. And that's where Cathy McGee comes in.

SOUNDCLIP

CATHY MCGEE: Well, I was out Christmas Day and it was very cold. I was out with my dog, and I saw this woman with her young child all bundled up, looking for this budgie bird. And she said to me, If you find the budgie, could you drop it off me? I said, sure. But I never thought I'd find the budgie.

HEATHER KITCHING: So, tell me what happened then.

CM: So, what happened was I remembered her address, and on New Year's night, I had actually taken my dog, Ember, out an hour earlier, but she was quite insistent on going out again. And so, when I took her out the second time, there was this chirping noise in my backyard. And I did a double take. I couldn't believe it. And I looked to my left, and I saw a bird, and I thought, oh my God, that's the, you know, that's the bird. And so, I grabbed the bird gently and took the dog home and then put the bird in the car and took it over to Leah. But while I was on my way over, the bird got loose in my car. So, I was driving my car with a flying bird in it. [chuckling]

LEAH NOVALINGA: We were eating turkey dinner for my birthday, and I wasn't expecting anybody else. I told my, my friend went to go open the door for me. And I said before she opened the door, I said, maybe it's Blue. And it was Blue. I was so happy. I was kissing him, making sure he's not so cold. He seemed really hungry. He got really smaller. It's so good to have him home again because he loves to talk. He mimics some words. He says, My name is Boba. I'm a parakeet bird.

CM: I'm glad Blue the Bird is back, and that she's happy and reunited with her family. You know, I live in a northern community, and it's a small town, and this is just, you know, one example of how the community comes together for one another. That's, that's the nice thing.

CH: That was Chloe McGee and Leah Novalinga speaking with CBC reporter Heather Kitching about Blue the Budgie, who survived seven days on the lam in Iqaluit.

[calypso]

Sea Sponge Sneeze

Guest: Sally Leys

CH: I've never thought this before today. But because of this story, I'm really wondering if we humans are getting the most out of our sneezes. I mean, we just do a couple of silly little [inhaling] inhalations and then pow, and that's it. Why are we in such a rush? Sea sponges really know how to savour the experience! For them, a similar sneeze-like behaviour can take up to a full day. So researcher Sally Leys was delighted to get her hands on years' worth of images of one particular sea sponge. In 2012, Ocean Networks Canada set up cameras on the sea floor with a close-up view of a sea sponge. And they left them there through 2015. The result was a ton of footage that provides an intimate glimpse into the creature's life. Professor Sally Leys spent years analyzing the images with her colleagues. We reached her in Edmonton.

NK: Professor, I think it's safe to say I'm not an expert like you, but the sea sponges are not exactly the most active of underwater creatures. So, how would you describe what it is like to watch a sea sponge in action?

SALLY LEYS: That's a, that's a very good question. I would say usually rather boring [NK chuckles] if you didn't have a time-lapse system. So, a sea sponge would rather sit there on the sea floor and not do much. But our cameras were capturing a picture every hour. So, it completely changes the activity level. It's just extremely active.

NK: Even sped up, that's, that's a lot of footage to train your eyes on. As you watch it so closely, what made you excited about what you were seeing?

SL: It's a very charismatic sponge that we were lucky to put the cameras on. It's, it's like an orange of a, of a deep, a deep orange-crimson color. And it, it sort of has a very sort of cringing and almost sort of animal-like behavior. But this is an animal that lacks muscle and nerves. So, we often don't think of them as regular animals. So, it's really neat to see that it's so active. And, in particular, that it's quite regular in its activity. It's quite exciting to watch all the different creatures interact with it. So, it's a very animate scene.

NK: So, it has a routine to what it does as well -- a rhythm?

SL: Yeah, it has a routine. I love the title "Daily Life of a Busy Sponge". [NK chuckles] It's, it basically contracts every day during the daytime hours. And so, that's its summer routine. And I suppose our, our data suggests that it's related to the amount of plankton that's in the water during the summer period. So, it's, it's probably, you know, burping and getting rid of that material during those daily contractions.

NK: And, and is, is what you're describing there one of the behaviors that's, that's garnered so much attention in the coverage. But people have described it as a sneezing.

SL: Yes, it is a sneeze. Pretty well all sponges sneeze. And some of them do it really slowly, and some of them do it quickly. But it depends on the size. So, just, water is fluid like air. And if you were to compress a lot of water, it would take a lot of time, push it out of an area. And so, a little sponge, it takes a very short time to sneeze. Well, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. But this sponge takes about a day.

NK: I mean, 10 minutes is a long time for a sneeze. [NK chuckles] But a day --

SL: Yeah, it's, it, it is. It's a pretty long sneeze, but it's really effective. And it has all the characteristics of a sneeze. [inhaling] it sort of builds up, and then eventually, it does one full contraction where everything goes out, and then it kind of relaxes again until the next one.

NK: It sounds like it was fun to watch sped up.

SL: Yeah, it's, I think watching the life around you in a different time frame is, is really, it's very soothing because it takes you out of your own world and it makes you realize there are other worlds going on beside yours. And that's a very comforting thought. And it's, it's also, all of a sudden, you have to look at it from a very, well, all sorts of different angles. And then, you have to do the science on it and, you know, calculate the statistics and determine whether it's really correlated with this or that. So, it's, it is a very fun and exciting thing to observe.

NK: I know that the contractions are only one thing that you observed. You talked about activity in the summer. They were completely dormant during the winter. Did that surprise you?

SL: Yeah, I was never expecting that at all. I knew that from the work we've done in the lab, and what colleagues have done around the world, that we do expect these to be more active animals. They're responsive; they're animals. But I didn't expect them to be quiet in the winter. You know, this is, to me, and three winters in a row, it basically does nothing. It sits there completely quiet. You know, it's slightly twitching around. And animals come and visit. So, it's not responding to them. Fish come, sea stars, you know, there's lots going on. And storms. We've seen storms hitting the Ocean Network's platform that the cameras are on, huge storms, and the sponge is quiet. So, it's really interesting to me that it is so quiet during the winter months.

NK: You're clearly enamoured. Of this particular sea sponge as well. You've given it a name. Tell our listeners.

SL: [chuckle] Yes. I decided early on that because we were just looking at one individual, and we weren't looking at a sort of an array of of individuals and getting our sample size, we were talking about something that we needed to refer to separately from all the other individuals. And also, it helped a lot to talk about a nickname for the sponge. I called it Belinda. [NK chuckles] When we were conversing with the Ocean Network's, you know, engineers and computer folk, it was easier than rolling off these species names.

NK: Sure. And why Belinda in particular?

SL: Well, at the time, there was a lot of rage about Sponge Bob. And I feel that in this day and age, we need to have diversity. So, Belinda seems like a very appropriate other Bob.

NK: [laughing] Belinda replaces Bob. I like that. I like that. Have you, have you checked back in? Is Belinda still okay? I don't know the lifespan of a sea sponge.

SL: Yeah. So, that's a great question. So, a lifespan of a sponge is anywhere from probably 20 to several hundred years. And this one we know is about 15 years now. She's still there.

NK: Go, Belinda!

SL: And the cameras aren't there, but divers have been down, and she's still there. And I would, I just think it's fantastic to be able to see such a, a very stationary but very active animal that's there for the long term.

NK: I'm glad we could speak, Professor. Thank you.

SL: Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Sally Leys is a professor of biological sciences at the University of Alberta. We reached her in Edmonton.

[lounge jazz]

Mini-Update: Gitmo

CH: Over the past 23 years, close to 800 people have been imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay. Now, that number is down to 15. Yesterday, the Pentagon announced that 11 Yemeni men had been transferred to Oman. They'd been held without charge for over 20 years -- taken into custody during the U.S. response to the al Qaeda attacks of 2001. The latest transfer comes just days after a 59-year-old Tunisian man was released from the prison -- as President Biden wraps up his time in office. And that was the topic last week, when guest host Peter Armstrong spoke to Carol Rosenberg of the New York Times, who has reported from Guantanamo Bay since 2002.

SOUNDCLIP

CR: There are a number of people there who could be at Guantánamo forever, until the day they die. And that's because the Congress has decided that no matter how small the population or the needs of those few prisoners, they don't want them stepping foot in the United States. Congress likes Guantánamo Bay. The messaging, the concept, the potential use of it in the future. And they've made it impossible systematically for the administrations to shut it down. What Guantánamo is today is it's almost like this strange designer prison run by a very costly and cumbersome, rotating force of National Guard soldiers who go there on nine-month stints, cops, students, the unemployed called up for National Guard service who go down there, do their shifts, live in dorms, go to the beach, party because it's unaccompanied, and then go home. And it's become this self-sustaining operation. As recently as this month, there were 800 military and civilian employees.

CH: New York Times reporter Carol Rosenberg, speaking to guest host Peter Armstrong last week.

[indie rock]

Part 3: Netherlands Nazi Archive, D.C. Snowball Fight

FOA: Hebdo Anniversary

CH: Ten years ago today, two gunmen entered the offices of the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris and opened fire. Wandrille Lanos was working in the office across the hall. He arrived moments later. He told us what he found.

SOUNDCLIP

WANDRILLE LANOS: You could definitely smell the very strong smell of gunpowder. And you could hear people sort of crying out. I'm not sure how many bodies I counted, but I can tell you that in one room, I saw at least six or seven bodies lying on the floor and some of them couldn't move. It was a very disturbing scene, as you can imagine.

CH: From Our Archives, that was journalist Wandrille Lanos speaking to former As It Happens host Carol Off. Mr. Lanos was among the first on the scene on January 7th, 2015, when two gunmen killed 10 staff members at Charlie Hebdo. The office had been under police protection since it was damaged by a firebomb in 2011 after publishing a spoof issue, quote, "guest edited" by the Prophet Muhammad. The shooting was the start of three days of attacks that left 17 dead. The magazine's editor Stephane Charbonnier -- known by the pen name Charb -- was among those killed. Former French Minister for European Affairs Noëlle Lenoir was a friend of Mr. Charbonnier's. She spoke to Carol the day of the attack.

SOUNDCLIP

NOËLLE LENOIR: We are very shocked. The French, by and large, are very, very shocked, indeed. I've never seen for decades such a reaction. We have all the feeling that it's our national identity and our values, European values, as well, which are endangered today.

CAROL OFF: And people have been in the streets. There are very large gatherings, people carrying the sign, "je suis Charlie", "I am, I am Charlie", to identify with the publication.

NL: Yeah. It reminds us what said Kennedy. You remember when he said

"Ich bin Berlinerin", "I'm a Berliner". And in that case, today, we feel that Charlie Hebdo, even though there are not so many subscribers, it's a very well-known and very respected and quite unique, I must say, a newspaper. They had a great courage. Because, as perhaps you know, in 2011, they were sued before the tribunal of Paris for having published in support of the Scandinavian cartoonists who were threatened for having published a cartoon of Mohammed. And, and as of this period, they have been protected by the police. But, unfortunately, it was not enough this time.

CO: You knew the key people in this. You knew this, this stephane Charbonnier, better known as Charb, who was the editor and cartoonist.

NL: Yeah.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about him?

NL: Well, he, he was 40 years of age. As a journalist, he was not well-paid at all. And he was a militant of freedom of expression. He was rather on the left. But Wolinski, whom I did know as well as Charb, was killed also, and he was on the right. So, Charlie Hebdo was not a political newspaper. It was really in the French tradition, in the Voltaire tradition, to defend all what has to be defended against, I must say, silliness or, well, violence.

CO: Just so people understand, when you say it is not political, I mean, it wasn't to the left or the right. It was, it mocked everyone. But it was political satire.

NL: Yes, it was satire, but not political in the sense that they were not supporting any particular political party. But what strikes me is that they were quite unique in defending what they defended. Because they criticize, and I hope they will continue to criticize, religion. But also, politics, of course, and the society as a whole. And never with violence. It was provocative. But this is, of course, what is a cartoon by itself? It's not an article of a journalist. It's a drawing, which must be a bit provocative to be meaningful. They were not anti-Islam at all. They were anti-Islamist and violence, and they paid for it by being assassinated by these crazy people.

CH: From As It Happens 10 years ago today, that was Noëlle Lenoir -- a former French minister for European affairs and a friend of editor and cartoonist Stephane Charbonnier, who was killed in the Charlie Hebdo attack. Despite the ongoing threat, the magazine has continued to publish. Today, it released a special commemorative edition.

[folk]

NL Horse Rescue

CH: The storm that pounded the northeast coast of Newfoundland this weekend did some serious damage. It caused major flooding and washed away entire structures. It was the kind of storm a lot of people said they'd never seen before. But Dana Blackmore was ready for it. Her horses typically stay in a converted fishing stage in Pound Cove, close to the water. But she and some neighbours managed to save her horses and a mule before it was too late, even though those neighbours had never been around horses before.

SOUNDCLIP

DANA BLACKMORE: Typically, when I'm looking for anyone's help, it's kind of a big deal. Like, it's not like, you know, can you help me change my tire? [chuckle] But they were so good because they had literally just come from the situation happening, like, at the end of the road. One of my friends was literally over his boots filled with water. They're like, what do you need us to do? And I'm like, you need to take this 1,600-pound Percheron. We're leaving this barn. And that's a bit overwhelming for people who aren't horsey. It's huge animals. And they were nervous. When we walked into the situation, I mean, the saltwater is swirling around their feet at this point.

BERNICE HILLIER: Oh my!

DB: And you're trying to calm yourself because horses feed off of your cue. So, if you're excited, and you're nervous, and you're scared, they pick up on that instantly. It was their first time walking a horse anywhere, leading a horse, and never mind walking them out in the 110-kilometre wind.

BH: My heavens. And how are they doing now? We should ask you.

DB: Oh, they're great. By the end of the evening, we had them all straightened away. So, we have a new property that we're starting. We acquired some land last year. So, we had a beautiful, big fenced area that we could walk them to. And our horse trailer was there. So, this summer, we're planning a barn, and we won't have this concern next winter.

BH: How much damage did your property sustain in the storm?

DB: We lost the bridge. That's a pretty big structure. So, that, it would be a bridge that went out to the wharf from the stage. One of my friends, I mean, his stage was, is a big place. That was completely gone. So, that was the sense of urgency, I think. It's just like if that could go, ours can go in a second.

BH: And I know that this stage is very special to you, you know? So, it's wonderful that you didn't sustain any further damage.

DB: Yeah, it's been in the family for a long time, about 70 years. And it had burnt some years back and was completely rebuilt. And, I mean, that stage, we've had weddings on the stage, we've had Halloween parties, grandfathers have taught sons and those sons have taught their sons, and it's quite popular in community.

BH: Tell everyone about the sign you have over the door of the stage.

DB: The farm that we're starting, we're naming it The Loved Ones Barn and The Loved Ones Farm. And my grandfather, he loved animals. So, all of his animals he would refer to as his loved ones. So, he got up in the morning, you know, when I was a little girl, I'd hear him say to the cat, come my loved one. Or he had a Newfoundland pony, and if he let her out, come on my loved one. Come on, my loved one. So, when I go in, in the morning, I'm like, good morning, my loved ones.

CH: That was Dana Blackmore speaking to Bernice Hillier, host of Newfoundland Morning, today.

[Spanish guitar]

Netherlands Nazi Archive

Guest: Rinke Smedinga

CH: Decades after the Second World War, a dark chapter of Dutch history is being dragged into the spotlight. For the first time, the names of more than 425,000 people investigated for collaborating with the Nazis during the German occupation of the Netherlands have been published online. That's intended to shed light on the past -- and it's also stirring up controversy. Rinke Smedinga is a historian. His father was a member of the National Socialist Movement or NSB -- the Dutch Nazi party -- during the Second World War. We reached him in Apeldoorn, the Netherlands.

NK: Rinke, your family's history, your father's past in particular, is not a secret to you, but you were there in person at the archives when this all went live. Can you describe for our listeners what that moment was like for you?

RINKE SMEDINGA: It was a bit of a sensation. I've been at the archive before. It's only a part of the information that's online right now. The most heavy change would be that the entire archive is full text retrievable, available everywhere on the computer. But being there, and having the opportunity to look at other files, friends of my father's, files of friends with my father, that was a sensation for me.

NK: Your father was a member of the Dutch Nazi Party. When you looked at those other files, what stood out to you?

RS: Well, the many details of which I found. And also the details of the connection my father had with these men, which is a very noteworthy war criminal sentenced to death after the war. And I just 10 years ago discovered that my father and he were friends because a relative of this man came to me and said, we are, our fathers were friends with each other.

NK: And did you know about your father's past before you found out about that relationship? Or all was revealed in that moment?

RS: The relationship was unknown to me for a bit. Especially I didn't know that they were still friends after the war. But I knew that they knew each other because they were the first volunteers with a group of 100 Dutchmen volunteering for the Waffen SS in Germany.

NK: This is not an easy thing for, for someone to find out about their parents, their father. How have you processed that reality in your life?

RS: It has been a great burden, and it's also put me in kind of a crisis personally. And I managed to, to, to survive in a dramatic way. But it's, it has been in my life all of the time, and it's still a vulnerable part of my identity and existence.

NK: How have you moved through that to get to the point you're at now?

RS: As I discovered the details about what my father had done, and having no regrets of the horrible things he had done, my first reaction was to get out of the house and start a new life and getting away from him. And then, I had a great phase in my life. But afterwards, as I was about 40 years old, I got medical complaints, and they couldn't find a physical explanation for these complaints. And that brought me to the chair of psychiatrists and psychologists. And then, I discovered that I had to deal with this past.

NK: Well, thank you for sharing that. So, for, for you then, given what you've experienced and given your father's role at that time, does, does making this information public in this way, does that ease that burden for you?

RS: For me, myself, it's not that interesting because I've read the files already about 20 years ago, and the most confronting parts of reading the files of my father then was that there were things not written in the files. My father told me he witnessed an execution in the camp of the Germans in which they held Jews from the Netherlands captured before they send them by train to the destruction camps. And another part of it was he told me that he was involved in an actual killing. And that was also not registered in the file. So, therefore, this is one of the interesting but difficult parts of the archive. Many people that did horrible things, of course, tried not to tell it or to make it another kind of easy story because they feared the consequences of it.

NK: And then there's the issue of people who are named in this database but were not prosecuted and perhaps didn't do anything.

RS: That's, that's a great issue. For instance, because, at the time, as the Netherlands got liberated, some people said, well, he, my neighbour man, worked together with the Germans. And then, the forces captured him, put him in a kind of a prison, and then this person had to wait for months, most of the time, before he could go to the police and to the researchers and tell, well, this is a mistake here because it's not true. And then, they had to verify it. So, there was then the case of a completely innocent man or woman. And all the cases are with the names online right now. So, if you look at the data now existing of the people which do have a file, you see the name and you can think, well, a name within this project, that must be a wrong person. While in some cases, that's not the case. There are also not only the names of those who are expected to be wrong or were perpetrators, but in that case, there are names of children, people writing about them, neighbour people, all kind of witnesses, all kind of other people. And their names are also publicized.

NK: Ultimately, do you think this was the right decision?

RS: I think it was the right decision to put it on hold for a moment. And I hope that there will be a discussion about taking more precautions. It's all online, but there is not any surface around it for people to try to, to be able to understand what's in the file and how to use the computer. So, people that are not able to read and not able to use the computer have no way to go to the story and read the story and understand the story. And I think that it's time to do something in order to help people to understand what's there in the archive. Because their neighbours and colleagues can say, well, I've read something about your family that's not good, and --

NK: There's no context around it.

RS: There's no context around it. Even professors are doing, historians doing, studies on this archive say it's very, very difficult for me to get a picture of what people did. And did they do the right thing or the wrong thing? So, people need support to be able to do so. But, of course, also, I think that after the attention that there was for the resistance and after the attention that there still is for the victims of the war, it needs to be looked at who did this? Who were the men and people who did the wrong things? Not to understand what they did, but in order to, to learn from their actions.

NK: Rinke, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RS: Thank you, too.

CH: Rinke Smedinga is a historian. His father was a member of the Dutch Nazi party during the Second World War. He's in Apeldoorn, the Netherlands.

[ambient]

Family Doctor Waits

CH: It was a cold morning in Kensington, P.E.I. when Xiaopeng Liu Ramsay took her mother to a local walk-in clinic. Her mom was complaining of a bad cough, and without a family doctor, they had no choice but to try to line up early. So, they arrived long before the clinic's opening time, and waited in freezing temperatures for hours -- and they weren't alone.

SOUNDCLIP

XIAOPENG LIU RAMSAY: In order to get a spot, we need to be there at least two hours prior. So, I was there around 7:30 a.m., and there were already five people ahead of me. It was freezing cold. It was -12 degrees. At first, because I was the number six, and we were just all in the car because it was pretty cold. And the lady who arrived after me, and she just sat outside, and she's an elderly lady, and she is there by herself. And she's clearly, like, visibly shivering in pain. So, I came out of the car, and I said, come sit in my car. It's warmer that way. And we're all here. We can just watch kind of who comes first and who comes next. But she thanked me, but she refused. And she says, I'm so worried I'll lose my spot. So, she rather just to sit outside so she can have her space in the line. And then, more patients continued to arrive. And Murphy's Pharmacy is a small place. There are only like four parking spaces right in front of the pharmacy. So, when more people showed up, most people are choosing to wait outside to secure their spots. And then, it was 7:30 in the morning, and it was very cold. And, for me, like, I am healthy, I'm there for my mom. And I am young. Like, I am able to stand outside to help my mom. But, like, seeing elderly and already sick patients endure such harsh conditions just to see a doctor, like, really, it was heartbreaking. I am very grateful to have a walk-in clinic in Kensington, and I'm grateful for the doctors and nurses and everything. But this whole experience on Saturday just made me question, like, whether there's, whether there's a better system that could be put in place during the winter time. So, I don't know the answer. I don't know what is the most inclusive and effective way to ensure that everyone can have access to the service. I don't know the answer. But definitely, we need something, something that can help our most vulnerable people.

CH: Xiaopeng Liu Ramsay speaking with our CBC colleagues on P.E.I. Atlantic Medical Centres, which runs the clinic in Kensington, says it plans to implement an online booking system for early appointments.

[Christmas toy store music?]

D.C. Snowball Fight

Guests: Michael Lipin, Ami Greener

SOUNDCLIP

[the various sounds of a large snowball fight]

CH: The sound of absolute chaos this week in Washington D.C. Screams of terror, cries of pain... and laughter. At 11 AM yesterday -- January 6th -- hundreds of people flocked to Meridian Hill Park for a giant snowball fight. The Washington D.C. Snowball Fight Association, or W-D-C-S-F-A, took advantage of the major winter storm that brought heavy snow, ice, and power outages to several states. Michael Lipin and Ami Greener were in the middle of the fight as the co-founders of the W-D-C-S-F-A. We reached them in Washington.

NK: Ami, Michael, have you, have you all thawed out yet or are you just ready to get back out there whenever you can?

MICHAEL LIPIN: Well, I'm, well, I'm pretty thawed out. But, you know, there was a lot of snow flying around, and it did take some drying off yesterday.

NK: And Ami?

AMI GREENER: Yeah, as well. Thawed out. Sat by the fireplace, warmed up. We were out a good I think three hours yesterday at the snowball fight.

NK: Three hours?!

AG: It's a lot of fun. About, I was out there for three hours.

ML: When you're the organizers, you feel a sense of duty to kind of be there from start to finish.

NK: Sure.

ML: Or, I mean, more or less, the finish because there's no real finishing off of these events. They sort of fizzle out organically.

NK: Right.

ML: You know, after a certain period of time. [NK chuckles] People get tired, and they've, they kind of, you have some stragglers who kind of stick around toward the end. But, you know, we want to make sure that the whole thing comes off smoothly. So, we do stay longer than most people at these things.

NK: And are there winners and losers in the end, or is it just hours of fun?

AG: Well, it's hours of fun. And I think everyone is a winner. Everyone is a winner here. [AG and NK chuckle] As long as they're not hit too hard. You can just see, you know, you'll see a lot of young children, and you'll see, you know, older senior citizens as well. Everyone joins and has fun throwing snowballs at each other. So, everyone wins, I think.

NK: And it certainly, as it has in the past, Michael, looked like a big turnout. Do you have a count -- an official count?

ML: That, that's hard to do when we're, we're so focused on, like, self-preservation. You know, when snowballs are flying all around, you really want to make sure you're either attacking someone or shielding yourself from attack. So, you know, trying to count attendees in that scenario is a bit difficult. But it was clearly hundreds of people. I think it's fair to say more than 500. Over the course of two or three hours, it could have been close to 1,000. I mean, people come and go to these things. So, that's, that would be my guess. Ami, what about you?

AG: Yeah, I think around the same.

NK: I think, Michael, no matter where you live, a snowball fight, if you like being outdoors, would be pretty enticing, the idea of that fun. But I wonder if it's in D.C. even, even more attractive for people to let off steam?

ML: Yeah, Nil, I think that's true. It's a city where a lot of serious stuff gets done. A lot of political work goes on here. And, you know, there was a lot of action on, on Capitol Hill yesterday, as a matter of fact. But we were engaged in a different kind of battle, not a political one. This is not one in which anyone's affiliation is, is involved. It's just everyone for themselves, everyone having a good time, just pelting snow at complete strangers. It's just, you know, pure joy and, and elation, I could say.

NK: We all need a little bit of that and fresh air, certainly. You know, Ami, when we were first talking about having this conversation with both of you, I wondered because I remember our team in Washington years and years ago covering this. And I think it was the very first time. Was this, you know, that first reference to Snowmageddon, that first big storm, is that where this all started?

AG: Yeah. Well, actually, it started a few months before, not far, actually, from where the event was yesterday. There was an impromptu fight that, not one that we organized, and it was in the middle of a main street.

NK: Right.

AG: A main road. And people pummeled a police car by mistake. And the guy came out with the gun. It became a meme: don't bring a gun to a snowball fight. So, we decided when we saw Snowmageddon was coming, this would have been February 2010, nearly 15 years ago, to do it in DuPont Circle, another residential park here in D.C. And we got between 2,000 or 3000 people showed up to that one.

NK: And then, Michael, you, you both decide to found the Snowball Fight Association in Washington, D.C. What are you in charge of other than organizing all this fun?

ML: You know, that very first massive gathering in DuPont Circle Park on February 6th, 2010, it was so enormous, so beyond anything either Ami or I could have expected or anticipated. But it really provided the fuel to keep this thing going, you know, year after year after year. I mean, there have been some winters, sadly, when there was hardly any snow, and we actually couldn't do any events at all. We've had, I think, five of those. But we did feel like, you know, we got momentum here. We had these crazy blizzards of that winter, early 2010. And we knew from that experience, the DuPont Circle mega battle, that the people really love this activity. And so, we thought, let's, you know, let's keep the good times rolling here as much as we can. Let's, let's create a Facebook page and let's give it an official-sounding D.C. name. [NK chuckles] You know, we're in D.C. --.

NK: Of course! Titles matter.

ML: We're full of associations and organizations and whatnot. So, it's just sort of a tongue-in-cheek thing that stuck.

NK: Who's the better snowball fighter between the two of you?

ML: Ami, what's, what are your thoughts on that?

NK: [chuckling] So diplomatic.

AG: I cannot say because, again, being on this field, there's no good or bad. A lot of it is also luck. Who, you know, you aim, you hit, how the ball is, Michael has a snowball, he has one of those kind of little gadgets that can make perfect snowballs. But those --

NK: That's allowed?!

AG: Yeah. It is allowed, yeah. No, it does not throw it. It's just kind of --

NK: No, I know. I know. I just mean --

AG: That is allowed.

NK: I didn't realize outside technology was allowed.

AG: I would say there are no rules. But we have, we have had competitions, but not about snowballs. In the past, we had, like, a snowman competition and we had sponsors. You know, they gave people, you know, prizes. We had costume competitions as well. We had the Wizards, our basketball team, mascot show, show up yesterday. We had a polar bear. One of our sponsors, the Special Olympics, were there. And obviously, whoever is in a costume is a major target if you show up in a costume.

NK: Sure.

ML: That's one of the most beautiful things of these snowball fights is what actually happens when it goes down is, is usually a total surprise when you have someone like G-Whiz, the Wizards mascot, just show up out of nowhere. Like, we didn't contact G-Whiz or whoever is behind the G-Whiz character. He just showed up. And that's just what, that's what makes it so fun. But the thrill is in seeing just how the people respond, and, and what kind of crazy ideas they can bring to the battlefield just to make it more enjoyable for everyone.

NK: It does sound like a lot of fun. Ami, Michael, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

ML: Thank you, Nil.

AG: My pleasure. Thanks.

CH: Michael Lipin and Ami Greener are the co-founders of the Washington D.C. Snowball Fight Association.

The AIH Transcript For December 07, 2024

Social Sharing