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The AIH Transcript for February 10, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Limping to conclusions. A team of WHO researchers wraps up its investigation into the origins of COVID-19 in Wuhan, China. Our guest says the shortage of definitive answers is exactly what China wants.

CH: Chemical reaction. Residents of a Florida city are horrified to learn a hacker intended to poison their water supply with lye. And a cyber security expert says it's shocking but not completely surprising.

CO: On the brink of disaster. A Calgary doctor releases a study about a COVID-19 outbreak at an Alberta curling tournament last March. And it's personal because he was there and he was infected.

CH: Hurry hardwood. A couple living off-grid in the Yukon bush or keeping warm, tossing wooden logs around a DIY curling rink they built along the Klondike River.

CO: Meet your maker of meat. And Israeli company says its 3D lab grown bio printed ribeye steak is cruelty free and flavour rich. And the CEO explains why his rare product is so well done.

CH: And a whole set of bones to pick. A Florida heavy metal musician explains how and why he made a guitar out of the skeleton of his late uncle Filip, who he insists wouldn't have fretted about having frets. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that hopes Filip wasn't and isn't high strung.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'It's pretty metal,' says man who turned his uncle's skeleton into a guitar

W.H.O China Investigation

Guest: Yanzhong Huang

CH: It took several months for China to allow a fact finding mission of health experts into Wuhan. Yesterday, that mission delivered its findings. And instead of feeling attacked, China is feeling vindicated. The mission brought 14 scientists from the World Health Organisation to the city where the first reports of COVID-19 emerged just over a year ago. They visited laboratories, disease control centres, and wet markets to trace the origins of the coronavirus. But the results presented weren't particularly new or groundbreaking. At times, the scientists delivered praise to Chinese officials for granting them unfettered access. And the team also endorsed some key narratives that Chinese officials have been promoting, including a theory that the virus could have been brought into China through frozen food imports. Yanzhong Huang has been following the mission. He's a senior fellow for Global Health at the Council on Foreign Relations. We reached him in Maplewood, New Jersey.

CO: Professor Huang, the Chinese government seems to be pleased that it got what it wanted from this mission. What are the rest of us get?

YANZHONG HUANG: Well, I think the WHO trip to China helped enrich our understanding of the origins of the outbreak. Although a lot of questions remain to be answered.

CO: There are many remarks before they even left, concerns that they were not going to be able to have a full and frank admission, that they weren't going to have access to what they wanted, that there was going to be limits to what they could not only to see but also report. Is that your understanding?

YH: Yeah, that is true, right. That is also not surprising because the WHO is a member state organisation. It has to receive the cooperation from that country. And in China certainly it is no exception. It has to operate within the parameters set by the government there.

CO: And what we know, the Chinese authorities are extremely sensitive about how the virus is depicted and they do not like it when the fingers are pointed toward them or to any failures on their part. So it's more than just being just any member state, right? This is believed to be the source of the virus and they've demonstrated a lack of openness about how it was spread. Is that not the case?

YH: That is true. Whether the transparency and openness, I think it is important and in a way also critical for having an independent and thorough investigation. But we know, as you implied, that this is the problem from the very beginning as being politicised. So that makes it extremely difficult for the WHO to conduct an investigation whose findings can be acceptable by all involved parties.

CO: So this WHO team, the conclusions they have come to -- can you just quickly outline the three leading theories these scientists presented in their findings as the possible origin of COVID-19?

YH: The first finding is that they believe that this lab-escape theory, the outbreak was caused by a lab accident, the WHO experts believe that is extremely unlikely. So they are not going to conduct any further investigation. Secondly, they also indicated that this theory that the virus can be transmitted through frozen food now is a valid hypothesis -- that was exploring. And third, they were also suggesting there was no extensive circulation of the virus before the outbreak, before the virus was detected in December in the city.

CO: This idea that somehow that the virus didn't originate in China, that it came to China through the shipments of frozen food, this is an idea that there are very few scientists believe this is the case. But this is the idea that the Chinese authorities wanted to disseminate. So people are doubtful of these conclusions because it seems to include things that the Chinese government wants them to say.

YH: Well, it is true that, for example, the virus can survive in very low temperature. Although you know I think China probably, you're right, is the few countries know, if not the only one that claim this could be a very important pathway for the virus. But we have to keep in mind that when WHO is doing the investigation, they were doing the analysis, they based the research conducted by their Chinese counterparts.

CO: Just recalled the mission of last spring to China -- the WHO mission, led by Canadian doctor, Bruce Aylward, it raised a lot of questions after they reported that China was doing a very good job of containing the virus -- which didn't turn out to be the truth. Which raised questions about WHO's deferential approach to China. Do you have any concerns that the same thing will happen with this report? That it will raise some doubts about WHO''s independence from the Chinese authorities.

YH: If you compare this trip with the one that was conducted in February, certainly there's no fundamental difference here in terms that you are operating within the parameters set by the government. So given all this politicisation of the issue, of the origin tracing, it is not surprising that this report will likely be controversial. And for those who believe that this virus did originate in China, it is very hard to convince that this could be an alternative hypothesis.

CO: So based on that, do you think there's any possibility that we'll ever really know the origins of COVID-19?

YH: Well, I would say probably we will never know. But I still believe that this trip will be useful because we can learn from this trip, this response. It is important to reform the World Health Organisation so that it has independent information gathering, the investigation capacity. And secondly, once the issue is politicised, it's going to follow the logic of realpolitik, not peer review. Then it will be very difficult. And I will say it's almost a mission impossible to conduct analysis that's scientifically valid and politically acceptable.

CO: All right, Professor Huang, we will leave it there. Thank you.

YH: My pleasure.

CH: Yanzhong Huang is a senior fellow for Global Health at the Council on Foreign Relations. We reached him in Maplewood, New Jersey.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Curling Bonspiel Event

Guest: Kelly Burak

CH: Kelly Burak wants others to learn from his experience of getting COVID-19. 11 months ago at the start of the pandemic, the Alberta doctor was in Edmonton for a four day bonspiel. The curlers there were mainly physicians from Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Ontario. It would become a super spreader event. Dozens of people ended up testing positive for COVID-19. Dr. Burak was one of them. Now he and his colleagues have released a paper about what happened in CMJ Open. We reached Dr. Kelly Burak in Calgary.

CO: Dr. Burak, it's hard even to remember what it was like to be at an event like a bonspiel. Can you take us back to last March and how did people regard such an event, the risk that they were presented with?

KELLY BURAK: I mean, curling for us was such an important part of our social life and sporting life. It was very early -- in fact, the day that we congregated in Edmonton was the day that the WHO declared the pandemic. So obviously as health care providers we were watching what was happening at the time. It was mainly happening in other parts of the world. So we are aware of it. But we thought if we put some enhanced safety measures in place, we would be okay.

CO: And you weren't breaking any of the rules at that point in the health guidelines in Alberta, right? It was limited to groups of 250 or less, which is hard to imagine at this point. And you put all the measures you could in place, right?

KB: Yeah. I mean, in fact, the night that we got together for our opening reception, there was still NHL hockey going on. So it was a much different time.

CO: You ended up with a big spread, right, a big infection. At least 40 of the 73 people there were infected. And they took those infections to home, to family, to workplaces, to other people, right?

KB: Yeah. I mean, we were really lucky, I think, because we were health care providers. So as soon as we heard about the first case, which was two days after the event, a lot of us went for testing. We had early access to testing because we were health care workers. And as soon as we heard about the second case then we realised that we had to move very quickly. And within a few days, we had everybody contacted and isolating. So it was somewhat an advantage that this happened amongst health care workers.

CO: So now, 11 months later, what did you think you could learn from studying that one super spreader event?

KB: Yeah, I think the take-home message is the things that we learnt were, it's highly infectious -- we know that from a 74 percent attack rate. But we wanted to tease out a little bit, if we could, what things what activities really were responsible for the transmission at the event. So we carefully interviewed everybody five to eight weeks after the event, while memories were still fresh and we tried to get everybody's activities tracked, what they did at the bonspiel. And I think one of the things that we saw that we had a natural experiment. There was one team that was very cautious and didn't attend any of the social events, didn't attend any of the buffet lunches or be in the bar after the curling. And that team didn't have any cases. So it showed us that the socialising before and after the actual sporting event may be a very important part of transmission risk.

CO: Interesting. But that team was on the ice. They did take part during the sport, right?

KB: Yeah. They curled the same number of games as other teams go.

CO: Wow. So what did you learn just from that one sort of natural experiment?

KB: I think like other transmission clusters or super sprinter events, as they call them, we had similar experiences that others have found. The risk is greatest when you're indoors -- perhaps in places with poor ventilation, you're next to other people where you're not wearing a mask, you're speaking or talking loudly, sharing food and drink, that kind of thing. I think that's where a lot of the risk is. And so our experience was similar to what's been reported elsewhere.

CO: This is pre-mask for the most part, wasn't it?

KB: Absolutely. We had no recommendations about masking indoors or during sporting events or anything like that at the time. We were hand sanitising. We weren't shaking hands before or after games. We were even wiping down the curling rocks with disinfectant between games. So we were trying to do what we thought was appropriate, but we learnt the hard way that that wasn't enough.

CO: And was there a range of infection, of the degree of infection, the degree of illness amongst the people?

KB: Yeah, we were really lucky. Most everybody in our cohort did really well -- I'm not saying some people didn't get very sick, but we only had one of our physicians actually attend the emergency room, nobody was hospitalised and so everybody recovered, although some are still struggling with some long term symptoms of COVID.

CO: What does that tell you? Was it the amount of exposure they had? Was it their ages -- maybe being more fit? Anything like that you could learn?

KB: I'd like to think that we're all fit as medical curlers. [Chuckles] But I'm not sure. We had quite a age range. Our oldest case was 79. So we feel very fortunate that we got away without having any significant illness. But you never know, right? I just think we were lucky.

CO: So this report that you co-authored is valuable for, I guess, people to see this one simple event and you talk to them so soon afterwards. But do you regret that you attended the event?

KB: Yeah, I mean, in retrospect, I would have never wanted to have COVID and obviously have it affect my family members and my friends. But we realised early on that as we were exchanging our symptoms, supporting each other through the process of suffering from then was a very new illness, that there are things to be learnt here. So that was our idea right away, that something positive has to come out of this. We have to study it. We have to share the information with others, because I think there are lessons to be learnt. So that was the real reason that we decided to do this study, why everyone agreed to participate in the study and share the information, displayed early on having some bad press about 'why were we there in the first place?' Well, we can't change that in retrospect, but we certainly can learn from it.

CO: How much do you miss curling?

KB: Oh, so much. We got back to it a little bit in the fall, but shut down as Alberta was having its second wave. We've cancelled the bonspiel for March of this year, obviously, and we really hope that we can get back at it in the spring of the following year with everybody immune.

CO: Sounds like a great plan. Dr. Burak thank you.

KB: Thank you very much Carol.

CH: Kelly Burak is a professor of medicine at the University of Calgary and the lead author on a study of a COVID-19 outbreak linked to a curling tournament last March. He's in Calgary.

Skeleton Guitar

Guest: Prince Midnight

[Music: Heavy Metal Music]

CH: To the uninformed here, this just sounds like some gnarly, face-shredding, heavy metal reforge on an ordinary awesome guitar. But when you see the guitar being played, something sticks out: the ribcage of a human skeleton along with the spine and pelvis. That skeleton once belonged to the uncle of heavy metal musician Prince Midnight. That is, it was his Uncle Filip's actual skeleton, which is nephew, Mr. Midnight, has turned into a guitar. We reached Prince Midnight in Tampa, Florida.

CO: Prince, we just heard a bit of you playing your skeleton guitar. So is that the most metal thing you've ever done?

PRINCE MIDNIGHT: Yeah, it's pretty metal to play a guitar made out of a skeleton, I have to say yes.

CO: Can you describe what the guitar looks like?

PM: So the guitar, it's a male human torso that was medically prepared by a university in Greece. I don't know. It's got a little bit of a patina, I guess, on the skeleton because it was in a box in a cemetery for a long time. And I attached a Fender Telecaster neck and pick-ups to it and did all those soldering of the wires. And I used red and blue wires because it kind of reminded me of in school of the medical models you'd see, all veins and arteries were bright blue and bright red. So that was a purposeful choice on the electrical.

CO: Okay. So what part of the anatomy have you fashioned into the guitar?

PM: So this was a process. No one's ever made a guitar out of a skeleton, to my surprise. So there is a little bit of a learning curve. So originally I was drilling into the vertebrae, the bones -- and one cracked and broke. And so I was like, well, I got to reassess how I'm going to do this. That's not going to be a good foundation for this. So I went to a different concept. I used a steel bar that you can't really see because it's hidden by what's attached to it and on the steel bar attached the bridge and the guitar neck and the pickups. And so that steel bar allows them to be on a totally level playing and also all 90 degree right angles. You have to have it like that so the guitar can stay in tune and be playable or otherwise it's something to gather dust. But the way I did it, you can actually play it.

CO: Okay. So the key thing here is, isn't just the guitar, but it's actually made from the bones of your Uncle Filip. How would he feel about being made into guitar?

PM: So Uncle Filip was a super metal head. He got me totally into metal when I was a little kid because he was my mother's younger brother. So he was closer to my age and took me under his wing. I went and saw him play at metal concerts. So that's kind of how I got the idea -- these remains are sitting here and the funeral home is like so these are medically prepared, so it's a little bit of a different situation than if we just got a box of bones. And they were "We can create it, we can bury it."And so sorry, I'm off track -- so, Uncle Fil...I'll go back to your question. [Chuckles] Sorry. Sorry. I was going around back here. So Uncle Fil was a big metalhead. So I'm looking at these bones. And my buddy is a guitar builder at Dean Guitars -- his name is Mark. And he's always building guitars. This is everything he does every day. So being friends with him a long time, I see this process going on -- at home and what he tells me about from work. And so it just popped into my head, "I'm going to turn him Uncle Fil into a guitar." And I was like, that is the best way to honour him. He would love that idea. My mother, when this first started happening, she was really upset. She said it is sacrilegious -- he needs to lie and and rest. And she was walking away. I was like, "You think Uncle Filip would rather be a guitar or a box of bones?" She threw her arms up and she goes, "Probably the guitar." [Laughs]

CO: [Laughs] Okay. So you're pretty sure Uncle Fil doesn't mind being a guitar. Did he turn out to be a good guitar? Are you happy with Uncle Fil as a guitar?

PM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is not a typical guitar. So it's got some quirks to say the least. But sometimes the limitations we have with our tools are what makes the products great. So I would say that when you're trying to strum inside a rib cage, it limits how how long your strokes with a pick could be. So that tends to make a heavier kind of tone when you're strumming in that way, so yeah it has a certain sound to it and I think it sounds great.

CO: And so are you playing -- I mean, do you feel that Uncle Filip is giving you the music? Do you feel metal coming through those bones?

PM: I like to say I feel like Uncle Fil is not just here now, figuratively. He's here literally too. I'm literally giving my Uncle Fil a hug while he's figuratively with me creating heavy metal riffs.

CO: Can you play a bit of Uncle Fil for us?

PM: I don't have it all wired up. I can just strum it real quick.

CO: Just strum it. Yeah. Let's have a hear. Have a listen.

PM: [Prince plays the Uncle Fil guitar]

CO: That's great.

PM: So there's a little bit.

CO: All right. I felt Uncle Filip coming through there.

PM: You know you can. I believe things pick up a little bit of us when we pick him up and drop them down. So if you believe in that kind of thing, certainly you've got to believe a skeleton carries some kind of memory of the person it needs to hold together.

CO: Has your mom heard you play her brother?

PM: No, I don't live with her. So she hasn't and she doesn't really follow like heavy metal music or anything.

CO: But she might like to hear it.

PM: I feel like her first reaction probably would lead me to believe that she would not want to hear it.

CO: [Laughs] All right. You know her better than, obviously, I do. Anyway, Prince I appreciate you telling us the story. Thank you.

PM: Hey, no problem. Have a nice day.

CO: You too. Bye bye.

CH: Prince Midnight is a heavy metal musician who turned his uncle's skeleton into a guitar. We reached him in Tampa, Florida. And we have some photos of the guitar, you'll be glad to hear, on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Drum & Bass Music]

Vaccine Video

CH: If there's anyone who can sway public opinion, it's the Rocket Man. The UK's National Health Service knows that. So they partnered with Sir Elton John to make a new video encouraging Brits to get a COVID-19 vaccine. According to the BBC, more than 12-million people in the UK have already had at least one dose of a vaccine. But there's concern that younger adults might be more hesitant in the next phase of the rollout. In the video, Sir Elton explains that the vaccine is safe and tries to persuade the NHS that he is the best celebrity to cast as their vaccine ambassador. The audition goes well for Sir Elton until Sir Michael Caine shows up.

VOICE: [SOUNDCLIP: Elton John. Audition. Take one. (Bleep sounds)

ELTON JOHN: My name is Elton John.

VOICE: Cut that. Little showbiz Elton. (Bleep sound)

ELTON JOHN: My name is Elton John.

VOICE: Bit more showbiz. (Bleep sound)

ELTON JOHN: My name is Elton John.

VOICE: Let's go for your Michael Caine impression. Just let's see what it's like.

ELTON JOHN: [Elton John speaking impersonating Michael Caine] My is Elton John.

VOICE: Beautiful. Cut there. (Bleep sound)

ELTON JOHN: The more people in society that get vaccinated, the more chance there is of eradicating the national COVID pandemic. It's really important to know that the vaccines have all been through and met the necessary safety and quality standards.

VOICE: So this is a bit where you're going to have the vaccine now, Elton. So just kind of pretend that you're having the vaccine from a nurse.

ELTON JOHN: Oo! [Makes pain sound]

VOICE: What was that Elton?

ELTON JOHN: That was me acting.

VOICE: Okay, let's cut there.

ELTON JOHN: And as you can see, (sings) I'm still standing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

VOICE: Wow. Okay, thanks Elton we'll let you know.

ELTON JOHN: Oh. Well, at this short notice you won't find anyone bigger. (Bleep sound]

MICHAEL CAINE: Thank you. Hello, my name is Michael Caine. I've just had a vaccine for the COVID. It didn't hurt. Not many people know that.

VOICE: Cut there. That was fantastic. Thank you Sir Michael.

MICHAEL CAINE: Thank you.

VOICE: Claire let the little fella know he didn't get the job.]

CH: Sir Michael Caine and Sir Elton John auditioning for the role of vaccine ambassador for the UK's National Health Service. The British actor and the British rock star lent their talents to a new campaign by the NHS to promote the COVID-19 vaccine.

[Music: Piano Music]

Part 2: Florida Water Hack

Florida Water Hack

Guest: Anthony Urbanovich

CH: People in Oldsmar, Florida, are breathing a sigh of relief and pouring themselves a drink. Last Friday, Oldsmar was nearly poisoned when a hacker broke into city computers and then tapped into the water supply. Fortunately, a vigilant city worker prevented a disaster. Now the FBI, local police, and the Secret Service have launched an investigation into the attack. And for cyber security experts, it's like a prophecy coming to life. Anthony Urbanovich is the chief technology officer at Cyber Florida. We reached him in Tampa Bay.

CO: Anthony, what do you believe that this hacker was attempting to do?

ANTHONY URBANOVICH: Well, it's really tough to say at this moment in time. This was a relatively amateur hacker, from what I can tell, fairly unsophisticated. The real concern here is that now there are probably more sophisticated attackers, not necessarily in this system, but across various industrial control systems such as this one that we haven't seen or don't see. And those are the ones that we're really worried about.

CO: And it seems that the understanding is, is that the hacker was attempting to increase the amount of sodium hydroxide in the water system in Oldsmar. Is that right?

AU: That is correct. Sodium hydroxide, commonly known as lye, that they use in the water system to treat things at this plant. This week changed the numbers from 100 parts per million to somewhere neighbourhood of about 11,000 parts per million. Now, thankfully, there were other controls in place that would have gone off should this have gone through, it would have prevented from going through. But it's really a wake up call that local governments really need more help when it comes to cyber security to protect these key elements of our critical infrastructure, such as water, electric, and hospitals.

CO: But you said that they didn't get very far before it was cut. So did you feel that the mechanisms were in place in the system to have stopped it no matter what -- even if there's one person who had a good eye and caught it in time...if that hadn't happened, do you think that there were other failsafes?

AU: Well, from what I understand that the law enforcement -- keep in mind this is an ongoing investigation, so we don't know all the details yet. And I know what they're going through, so I don't want to second guess anyone from the outside. But it appears that the hacker accessed a system that was in place to allow individuals to work remotely and provide system updates, etc.. Now, today, a part of someone's password on the dark web will leverage a vulnerability to get through the system, I really don't know. But from what I understand, there were other fail safes past this mechanism that would have gone off and would have alerted individuals that the amount of lye had increased so much, to alert them to change that.

CO: And tell us, if you can, about the actual software that was hacked into.

AU: Sure. So the software is called TeamViewer. And it's used in things like this called industrial control systems, to allow operators that have to troubleshoot IT issues to do that remotely versus having to go on site. So the software is built to enable that interaction with the system remotely. And a particular operator actually noticed that 'Hey someone's accessing the system. My cursor is moving around. It probably shouldn't be. I'm not doing that.' So they were able to see this early on in the process. But it is a relatively common software that is out there and it's used for remote access. Again, this is just one of many types of software of this nature that is out there. And I do know that this particular software, like others, periodically, may have some vulnerabilities in it.

CO: Do you think that maybe this is not a good idea to have remote access software on a water supply of a city?

AU: Well the real question is, something of this nature -- why were they using this? And again, if you think about local governments, unlike larger industrial control systems or systems that are part of our critical infrastructure, smaller governments have less money -- especially in this time of COVID, people are working remotely. So did they put the system in place to enable remote access because of COVID? And what was the system there always? So, again, there are certain updates that can be done remotely and they're probably put in place remotely. But these individuals that run these systems, they're experts in their technical field, but they're not necessarily cybersecurity experts. So these local governments really need all the help they can get in terms of shoring up their cybersecurity from state and federal government levels here in the U.S..

CO: All right. This is an issue not because of a hacking, but the water supply becoming tainted in Canada. People got very sick. It was a wake up call in this country as to what resources there are in order to safeguard water. What warning bells go off for you after incidents like this with a hacker getting into it?

AU: Well, this is definitely a wake up call. Now, the good thing is that, here in the U.S., we have some very sophisticated professional cyber warriors that are protecting some of our systems on a national level. But as I mentioned, this is a smaller local or township here within Florida. And again, as you get down to the local level, you have less and less resources to cover these types of cyber security needs. The current or new administration here in the U.S., thankfully, has elevated cyber security and put a renewed focus on it, as well as our local senator, Marco Rubio, has stated this should be treated as a national security matter. So, again, it's a wake up call and a reminder that we are an interconnected network in our critical infrastructure, especially at the local level where a lot of our our key elements, such as water, electric, and hospitals -- we need to focus on cybersecurity controls.

CO: Do you hope that this is enough of a wake up call that the state will see that it has to put more resources into protecting these systems and having cybersecurity experts?

AU: Well, I hope it's enough of a wake up call that we get both national attention and state level attention on it. Nationally to try to focus on the cyber security elements and ensuring it is up from a federal level. But also at a state level for each state to -- not just Florida -- but each state to look at what needs to be done to help these local governments and provide additional help and resources at a state level.

CO: Anthony, we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AU: Thank you Carol. Thank you for your time.

CH: Anthony Urbanovich is the chief technology officer at Cyber Florida. We reached him in Tampa Bay. According to the CDC, the levels of sodium hydroxide the hacker attempted to release in Oldsmar, Florida, could have caused residents severe eye and skin burns and temporary hair loss.

[Musici: Calm Music]

Charlene Nero

CH: This weekend in Ottawa, a retirement home opened up a vaccine clinic for residents then it closed the clinic because it ran out of doses. And now the manager of the Stirling Park Retirement community has been suspended after accusations that he allowed his wife to get the very last shot. The vaccines were, of course, meant for residents first. Any left over were to go to staff and essential caregivers. When that didn't happen, a staff member wrote an anonymous letter describing the incident and others approached their union. The CBC spoke with Charlene Nero who was part of that union.

CHARLENE NERO: A number of our members, four in total and one caregiver, were told that there were five doses of the vaccine and that they would receive those doses of the vaccine. What ended up happening, we're told, is that three of the four employees were vaccinated and the essential caregiver, that is the family person of the resident was vaccinated. But the fourth employee was told that they didn't have enough vaccine. Instead, the wife of one of the senior managers was called to attend at the home and she received the last dose of the vaccine. We've heard reports that the staff person who thought she was going to be vaccinated but was eventually denied the vaccine, was just gutted by it, that she was upset. She was almost in tears and she felt as though she was really uncared for and ignored. Our members are furious. They're furious because, first of all, allowing admission to someone from outside the home completely in violation of the public health orders puts all of the residents, as well as all of our members and all of the staff in the home, it puts all of them at risk. More importantly, though, it's just sort of destroying everybody's confidence in the whole response to the pandemic and the whole vaccine program. Our members think they have no reason to trust that the right thing is going to happen here. They're dispirited. They're disappointed. And frankly, they really really feel as if they don't count because simply by virtue of the fact that, you know somebody or you're related to somebody who's a manager or has friends in high places can allow you to jump the line is just devastating. These are precarious workers. They're not luxuriously paid. They are working in horrible circumstances. The worker who was denied the vaccine is a housekeeper in that home day after day, doing the dirtiest of work under the hardest of circumstances, gowned and gloved and wearing a mask with limited access to vacation, working short as all health care workers in this province are doing. And it's a slap in the face to know that someone is just able to jump the queue and that there doesn't seem to be anybody higher up in the hierarchy that actually cares enough to do something about it and make sure that it will never happen again.

CH: That was Charlene Nero, director of the legal department at LiUNA Local 3000, the union representing health care workers. She spoke with the CBC's Nicole Williams. In a statement, the company that owns the home in Ottawa, Riverstone Retirement Communities, said it, "Supports the prioritisation of residents, employees, and essential caregivers in order to provide the safest possible environment." Today, the manager of the Stirling Park Retirement community was suspended.

[Music: Jazz Music]

Yukon Backyard Curling

Guest: Kim Melton

CH: It's awfully cold and quiet in the bush outside Dawson City, Yukon, right now. The days of short nights are long. Everything is still and blanketed in snow. But if you listen closely, you can hear the trees cracking, maybe a distant wolf's howl. And if you listen even closer, you might hear Kim Melton's scream "Hurry hard!" -- as a wooden log slides across the frozen creek in her backyard. Ms. Melton and her partner built a curling rink near their off grid home in the woods outside Dawson City, Yukon. That's where we reached her.

CO: Kim, you just mentioned to me that it's -46 degrees in Dawson. [Chuckles] So are you going to go out curling today?

KIM MELTON: I think we're going to have to. It's supposed to actually get to -50 tonight, which is a rare milestone even for us. And to get our curling badge at -50, I think we're going to have to go out even if it's just a couple of rocks.

CO: [Chuckles] All right. So let's just talk about what you have actually constructed here, because this is, well, not exactly to league standard regulation, is it your curling rink?

KM: I shouldn't think so, no.

CO: Can you describe it for us?

KM: Sure. So just to give you a bit of context, we have a little homestead about 20 kilometres east of Dawson where there is access in the summer and walking access in the winter. And we're on a little creek that feeds into the Klondike River. So from my window here, I'm looking out at the rink through some mature spruce forest, just a little space that we've cleared and etched out rings that would fit in the amount of flat ice that we had.

CO: So at some point you just looked at the space and you said this just screams for a curling rink.

KM: [Laughs] Well, John, my partner, he used to do this on some of the dredge ponds near Dawson years ago. And my memories of skating as a kid were mostly of having extremely cold feet. I grew up outside Yellowknife. So the curling just it seems like an accessible way that we can invite anybody over, they don't have to have equipment. People that are in any kind of shape or age can play. And yeah, it's just a fun way to get together outside.

CO: Okay, you do need to have some equipment. You need to have rocks. And I think you need to have brooms, right, so what do you do for those?

KM: [Chuckles] Well, the rocks this year we've upped -- we did paint cans last year, and this year we used green wood -- it is very heavy and the ice in it actually makes it slide quite well. And as for brooms, we use the same broom that we used to sweep off the porch -- so it's definitely not regulation. But, yeah, we find that it works just well as well anyway. This year we both spend a lot of time inside working in the winter on computers and things. I'm working on a novel and we just decided we needed something that was good enough that we could actually invite the neighbours over and get us outside and engage with some other people.

CO: And so people have come over for competitive curling games with you guys?

KM: Competitive might be pushing it, but yes. [Laughs] Yeah, we have friends that walk over from a rural subdivision called Rock Creek.

CO: Okay. Now you have -- what I've seen on pictures that you've got rings and then goals painted on to the ice. I presume you're not using chemical dyes there?

KM: No, no. Like I said, we're a home, we're also a little farm and an orchard and a nursery. And so something that we have available is berry juice. We have a half gap orchard here. So that's what we've used this year. We used a jig to gouge out the holes, the rings in the ice, and then filled them with berry juice and flooded over top of them. So they're reasonably permanent now because when we first put the berry juice on, we actually had some of the local wildlife birds come down and get after it.

CO: I was going to say that would disappear really quickly in a lot of ice scapes as the animals would say "Oh, this is good, thank you for this. I needed it. I needed a hit in the middle of this winter's day." [Laughter]

KM: Umm hmm.

CO: Let me get this straight -- you live on an off-grid farm with berries and fruit, and you have this idyllic life when you're writing a novel. I mean, what is not to love about this life?

KM: We do have four months where we don't get any direct sun, just so that people don't all rush here -- we like to have some people rush here, we do need help in the summers. But we're always looking for people that want to have a taste of the life. But we're very happy with where we are. I think some people might find it a bit isolating and find a lack of fun difficult, and be having to do all the chores when it's -45 because there's no one else that's going to do it for you. But it's certainly our choice of lifestyle.

CO: Okay. So they may not envy you that, they may not want to dash our there and join you. But do you think that you'll start a trend with homemade DIY curling rinks and ponds and lakes and rivers?

KM: It certainly seems like a good idea to me. And I mean, we're far from the first people to do this. I saw a post from someone in Manitoba when we had this on CBC North, out of Yellowknife, they call it cordwood curling there. So it's certainly something that is being done. And again, for anyone that isn't comfortable on skates, it doesn't have that much ice. Especially in COVID times, it's a fun, safe way to be able to meet up outside and have a little fun -- it isn't just doing doing chores.

CO: You know, the people love curling. The people who love curling, love curling. And back in 2018, we spoke to Mr. T after he discovered his love for curling during the Olympics and he called his description...did you hear that interview?

KM: Oh, yes. Yes, I recall that.

CO: He called curling "Controlled mayhem."

KM: [Laughs] Well, I have to say, I don't know if we quite have the control down, but we can definitely supply the mayhem.

CO: [Laughter] All right. I'll leave it to it. I know you have to get out there. You just can't wait. But we will ask our listeners, people with cordwood curling or whatever kind of curling, paint cans or coffee cans -- maybe people will send us their own DIY curling rink photos and we'll share that.

KM: I'm sure you'll get a good response.

CO: Thank you so much Kim.

KM: Okay, thanks, Carol..

CH: Kim Melton built a curling rink on a frozen creek near her off grid home in the woods outside Dawson City, Yukon. And as you just heard, Ms. Melton's passion for curling reminded us of Carol's 2018 conversation with another devoted fan of the sport, Mr. T. Here's The A-Team actor and professional wrestler telling Carol why he pities the fool who thinks curling isn't cool.

CO: Mr. T, How's the armchair curling going?

MR.T: [Chuckles] It’s really going good. See, first I want to say I'm embarrassed about all this attention. And I was just relaxing at home and said yeah, I like curling. And you know and boom and you know wow! But I'm just a student in it. I just want to learn and I want to see and you know I got to understand the rules and all that, you know? So I liked what I saw, you know? I liked the finesse, and then the cool and the calmness of everything. I like the strategy. You know I like things like that. And then like I said, me being an athlete who played football, boxed, wrestled — all the tough stuff. You know this is calming.

CO: But you're Mr. T, I mean you’re macho. There's something wrong with this picture that you're watching and enjoying these nice Canadians sliding rocks across.

MT: That’s what makes Mr. T who he is; that’s controlled mayhem, you know? I am a tough guy, but I'm not a bad guy, which means my toughness is for righteousness. But I'm not a predator; I don't go starting on stuff, you know? I don't run from it either. You know I admire the strategy of curling; it looks so cool. I did the rough stuff, and that’s what makes me able to appreciate curling. You know there's no trash-talking. I like that there's no getting each other face. And I like how they release the stone. Wow! They make it look so effortlessly. And then the way that you know the sweepers move down the line, and not touch no other stone. Wow! That takes practice. I know that, and then I got understand you know even though I grew up on the south side Chicago, around the cold, you know I got to keep understanding that the game is played in the cold, you know? So you know I got to understand all that.

CO: Do you understand the rules to curling?

MT: No, that’s why I say I’m learning as we go. You know I’m studying it just like if I want to play golf, I've got to understand golf, I've got to understand what's points, what's out of bounds, I got to understand the lingo, to the dress code, what do I need, you know? Like I was saying earlier, for me being a ex-rough-tough-guy, I know I need some knee pads; I hope that's not against the rules. I got me some elbow stuff, you know? I know I’m going to slip down you know? So I got to learn that; I got to practice that. But at the end of the day, when I see the finished product, and see whichever team how they go out with their strategy, how they gracefully let go of the stone, and how they move and talk, and the instructions. It’s different; I like it. Yeah, yeah, see that's the problem I got there. Because you know I have the old football injuries, the knees, and stuff like that. So I don’t know if I’m good to be the sweeper or what not. At least I’m honest, I know I’m not that light on my feet to miss someone else’s stone as I go down. It’ll be a total mess! It’ll be like the Three Stooges if I try to sweep the stone. Everybody would be falling, they’d be taking pictures, and they'd be selling them on the Internet. I’d be the joke of the town, you know? It’s like any sport: you want to know what you’re good at. So I wouldn’t be good at being a sweeper, or a pusher, whatever the title is.

CO: Well, Canadians are loving your hashtag. #curlingiscoolfool.

MT: Yes, yes, yes, because I'm respecting the sport. Like I said, I'm not going to come in to clown or whatnot. I do want to learn more about it, you know? Slowly, I’ll eventually get to the ice, I'll get to the rules, I'll get to the equipment. You know and I’m a fan, I'm a spectator, you know? So I like to watch it, you know? And so I'm enjoying it.

CH: From 2018 that was Carol speaking with Mr. T about his then newfound love for curling. You can find more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Hip-hop Music]

One In a Thousand

CH: Louise Bernice Halfe says she's taking a reminder to Canada's halls of power about the power of language to simply let us relate to one another. Ms. Halfe's name is Sky Dancer. Last week, she was named Canada's ninth parliamentary poet laureate. And in April, she has a new collection coming out. It's called "awasis - kinky and disheveled." The publisher describes the title character as a gender fluid trickster character who leaps from Cree stories. But on Saturday, Ms. Halfe told CBC Radio's "The House" that "Awasis" is also the little kid in everyone. From that interview, here is Louise Bernice Halfe reading one of the poems from that collection. It's called "One in a Thousand."

LOUISE BERNICE HALFE: This one is called "awasis - kinky and disheveled" -- and the particular poem I'm going to read is called "One in a Thousand." [Reading] There was nothing tidy about Awasis. Nobody could call her a control freak. She'd leave her clothes, furs, and feathers scattered here, there, and everywhere. She'd lazily pick something off the ground and wear whatever she decided to be that day. It wasn't an uncommon accident for Awasis to wear any of these inside out, but she was never embarrassed. She'd happily walk down the street, pantyhose falling to her ankles. She'd kick them off, wear her panties as a tube with leg holes for perche ears. She fell off a bicycle headfirst over a chain link fence while flirting with a passer by. Shot up, dusted off and waved at her hot pursuit. Another time, while texting, she smashed her face against the pillar and excused herself. It was just another one of those days. She forgot the toilet paper and dragged along whitetail amongst the crowd, watching a juggler eat fireballs. Those around her stepped aside as she elbowed her way to get a closer view. At the most sacred pipe ceremony, she stuck up stem in her ear and blew smoke rings through her mouth. "Awasis, I just never know what mischief you are up to. I never know whether to laugh or to cringe. You are a maverick. Secretly, I'm in love with you."

CH: That was Louise Bernice Halfe reading her poem, "One in a Thousand" on CBC Radio's The House. Ms. Halfe's Cree name is Sky Dancer. And she's Canada's new parliamentary poet laureate.

[Music: Pop Music]

Tory Schaab

CH: With temperatures hovering around -20, it's hard to stay warm outdoors in Alberta this week. That's not the only reason to participate in the world's longest hockey game, but it's probably a motivating factor once you're out on the ice. The goal is to play for 252 hours straight to beat a Guinness World Record and to raise money for cancer research in the process. This is the 7th edition of the game, which is an annual tradition in Sherwood Park, about a half hour east of Edmonton. Troy Schaab is one of the players braving the long shifts and cold temperatures here. He is telling us how he does it on the Calgary Eyeopener yesterday.

TROY SCHAAB: There's 40 players. 20 per team. And basically you got to get through to 252 hours. And so my line -- there is five per line plus one extra. And we will rotate for the six hours. And then once we're done our shift, the next shift comes on and we creep back to our trailers and grab a quick nap before we have to get on for our next shift. And this goes on until we get to the 252 hours.

ROB BROWN: Okay, hang on a second. Are you saying you played outdoors that entire time and then you took a break and warmed up like five hours later?

TROY SCHAAB: [Laughs] Yeah. We do have a dressing room and every hour a Zamboni does come out and cleans the ice. So we get ten minutes and it's the most precious minutes ever. [Laughter] Yeah, it is crazy. You know, when you're five years old and your mom and dad, they put you on skates for the first time and you're play playing hockey for the first time. And you're kind of out there. You don't really know how the game goes. So you're kind of looking at the rafters and you're kind of daydreaming out there. And that's kind of really what it was like overnight. And there was quite a wind here in Sherwood Park. So as time went on before the Zamboni could come out, we had blowing snow on the ice as well. So it was quite surreal.

ROB BROWN: And you're up to how many consecutive hours now?

TROY SCHAAB: You know that's a good question. I think they were saying, in the dressing room, we're about half way. We're about at the halfway point pretty quick. Yeah.

ROB BROWN: You need to get to 252.

TROY SCHAAB: 252 that's our number. [Laughter] That's the Guinness Book of World Records. So that's what we're going for.

CH: There was Troy Schaab speaking with guest host Rob Brown on the Calgary Eyeopener. Mr. Schaab is playing to beat the Guinness World Record for the longest hockey game. The game is also a fundraiser in support of the Cure Cancer Foundation.

[Music: Hip-hop Music]

Part 3: 3D Ribeyes

3D Ribeyes

Guest: Didier Toubia

CH: It's apparently a cut above without being a cut at all. An Israeli company says it's taken the race to find sustainable and humane alternatives to farmed meat to the next level. It says it has created what it calls the world's first slaughter-free ribeye steak, with the help of 3D printing. Didier Toubia is the CEO of Aleph Farms. We reached him in Ra'anana, Israel.

CO: Didier have you sampled your 3D printed rib eye steak?

DIDIER TOUBIA: Yes, of course. We have tasted it.

CO: And?

DT: It really tastes like meat. We can feel the flavour of the meat we know thanks to the actual real natural cell we have from beef, which are printed in order to assemble the steak from building blocks. It's a real meat just produced in different manner.

CO: Okay. And you're a steak lover. You like a good steak, is that right?

DT: Yes, I love meat and that's why I'm involved with other forms. The idea is really to get the same meat, but without the downsides, without any compromise.

CO: The downside being?

DT: The downside being on the environmental impact. Meat today is one of the drivers of green house gas emissions. And the downsides are also on the public health side. Livestock today -- the main concern of antibiotics, resistant to antibiotics.

CO: I guess in addition to all those health issues, there is concern about the cruelty to animals.

DT: Exactly.

CO: And so how do you do it? I mean, you're saying that these are actually the cells, animals cells that have been cloned and created and then created with a 3D printer. Without getting too technical, can you describe for us how you do that?

DT: Yes. First, there is no cloning involved. Cloning of whole animals, we are not doing that. The way we cultivate or make is to replicate the same natural and spontaneous process for muscle tissues to form inside the animal. The muscle tissues are made of building blocks with all cells, and we use the stem cells which we isolate from a healthy cow and which we multiply outside the animal as building blocks for assembling the steak from those building blocks outside the animal under control conditions. We use a fraction of the resources. We have no animal welfare issues involved, no animal cruelty, and we also don't use any antibiotics and any animal inputs.

CO: Right. Other parts or components of a steak, including muscle tissue -- as you mentioned, there's fat, there's blood, there's tissue around it, supporting cells. Do you replicate that? All the different components of a steak, are you including those in this?

DT: Yes. The goal is not necessarily to replicate a fully functional and muscle tissue, but rather to provide the experience of the steak. So we really focus on the cell types and the structure and on the sensory properties of the meat as we know it today, including all the nutritional properties.

CO: And so what is the 3D printer actually using as material? Just described that for us, if you would.

DT: The truly printer is an equipment which would have the capability of assembling those cells, which are natural cells but which have multiplied and have divided outside the animal. And the cells are printed while embedded inside a material which is called the bio-ink, which is an edible material which serve as a kind of a cement floor and a structure in the tissue. co

CO: And so this ink is actually -- if the experience of a steak, and I apologise to people for whom this is an offensive conversation about a steak, but people do like them bloody. They like them runny, they like them rare. So is that what you're describing?

DT: Yes. With this new platform Aleph Farms has developed we were able to really reproduce the juiciness of the steak in addition to the texture -- meaning that we have today, the possibilities to cultivate any meat cut of any size.

CO: Basically, someone will cook this as they would cook a steak?

DT: Exactly. We put a lot of focus on guaranteeing our products with the sensory properties which are unique to the meat we know and texture and taste evolve but also the culinary properties, the way it cooks, because meat is primarily an experience, it's an emotion, and the cooking part is actually an integral component of the experience of meat. And the last dimension of quality we have defined is the nutritional quality. And that's very important because plant-based meat analogues based on soy or pea do not necessarily provide the consumer with all the traditional value of the meat we know in terms of the quality of the proteins, in terms of the vitamins, A, D, B6, B12. So it's very important for us to provide these important and high quality nutrition.

CO: How different is your ribeye steak, your 3D printed ribeye steak? How different is it from something we'd get from beyond-meat and meet other kind of protein meats that are on the market?

DT: The big difference between Aleph Farm's approach and all the plant-based meat analogues like beyond-meat is that we don't replace meat with anything else -- with soy or pea or any other types of plant. We stick to the meat. Technically we are not a meat alternative -- we are an alternative to the production process of meat we know today based on slaughtering animals. We obtain the same meat without any slaughter.

CO: How soon do you think that people will be buying something like this or buying your steaks or going to the supermarket and just picking up a package of a 3D printed protein thing that's the steak, I guess?

DT: And the first product line is composed of thin cuts of beef and would be released before the end of next year. The prototype released yesterday, is the first prototype offer of an additional product line for thicker and fatter steaks, which would be released a couple of years later.

CO: All right. We'll be watching for that. Didier thank you.

DT: Thank you.

CH: Didier Toubia is the CEO of Aleph Farms. His company has made what it calls the world's first 3D bio printed ribeye steak. We reached him in Ra'anana, Israel.

[Music: Guitar Music]

Dream Wedding

CH: For a long time, Nanny Gallant and Dany Pilote had been planning to get married. Then last month, the couple received terrible news, Nanny's cancer had spread and she didn't have much time left. So immediately their friends and some strangers began working to make their dream wedding a reality. Friend Myriam Normand took the lead. But strangers offered the limousine, the dress, even a horse-drawn carriage. And with that unexpected help, Ms. Normand arranged an elegant, old fashioned barnyard wedding in three days flat.

MYRIAM NORMAND: We totally transformed the interior. So there was a sofa inside where they were installed and all the people that we invited were outside. Originally, they were supposed to be very few, and then some people just kept coming. So we kept it very correct -- everybody was outside. Honestly, it was with a lot of music, lights, some fires all around -- looking like what she is, honestly, she's very simple, romantic. She's an outdoor girl too. So I think we've been able to go through her hopes. We did it simple, nice, romantic and cute.

PETER TARDIF: Why did you want to do this for them?

MYRIAM NORMAND: Well, we couldn't do much. There's nothing we can say to make it better -- that we can do. There's nothing we can buy. We just wanted to have her to have a good time until the end. It is not the end yet. And we want it to be as long as possible. But to have some magic, to have something positive to think about and make sure it's not just bad news after bad news or just waiting after time to pass because it's suffering to see. So I proposed to them, "can we do it for you?" And I was surprised that they accepted because, Nanny, she's very low profile. We know her, but we don't know her that much. So she said yes and Dany as well said yes. We are willing to do it. If you want to do it for us, yes, we would like to go.

PETER TARDIF: And you got help from people. Tell us about the Facebook post and just people deciding to, on their own, give you guys a hand.

MYRIAM NORMAND: Honestly, it took 24 hours and we were totally overwhelmed. People from everywhere, people that we don't even know just sent us money like -- 500 dollars, 300 dollars, even some sent 1000 dollars. So we are thoroughly impressed and happy to see how people, even if they don't know Nanny and Dany -- without asking exactly who they were for us, they just jumped in and said, "Okay go for it. It's a good cause. We need positive. We need something nice in our lives. Actually, we need to feel that we're doing a difference." So it really touched us totally -- deeply and we're blown away totally.

PETER TARDIF: Nanny and Dany, what were they thinking. What was their reaction?

MYRIAM NORMAND: Well, as I told you, Nanny is a very low profile person -- I saw smiles on her face, that means everything. She really gave everything she has left. It was very hard on her yesterday to just find the energy to go through it. But she was all smiles. We looked at the picture and we can't even believe that she's sick. So just to see her face like that, she doesn't need to say much -- even Dany. But they told us that it was much more than they can expect. They said it's very hard on ourselves just to wait, wait and wait. So that was their thank you. In this situation, you don't have to say much.

CH: Myriam Normand was speaking with Peter Tardif, guest host of CBC's Breakaway in Quebec City. In just 72 hours, Ms. Normand organised a wedding for her friend, Nanny Gallant, who has terminal cancer. Ms. Gallant was married to Dany Pilote on the weekend at her farm in Saint-Gilles, Quebec. You can read more about this story and see the wedding pictures on the CBC Montreal webpage.

[Music: Calm Music]

Einsteinium

Guest: Rebecca Abergel

CH: Around grade nine, most of us are introduced to the periodic table. And although we never forget its face, we immediately forget most of its names. If pressed, some of us could probably name a handful of elements, but probably not number 99. That spot belongs to Einsteinium. If you've never heard of it, don't feel bad. The fact is, even scientists know very little about it. Einsteinium is a finicky and elusive element, and the challenges of working with it cannot be overstated, in large part because it doesn't naturally exist on Earth. That did not deter a group of researchers at Berkeley. They've been able to decode new information about Einsteinium. Rebecca Abergel was the lead scientist on the project. And we reached her in Berkeley, California.

CO: Professor Abergel, how big a deal is it to get to work with this incredibly rare element?

REBECCA ABERGEL: It's a big deal because not many people get to do this. It was very exciting. I guess a handful of folks in the world that have access to this material every once in a while, so we felt very privileged to do some experiments.

CO: Right. This is an element on the periodic table, but it doesn't exist in the natural world. So maybe in, I guess, the most simple terms for all of us who didn't get past grade nine science, just tell us what it is.

RA: Right. It's an element that is manmade in that we have to do something to trigger some kind of reaction to produce it. And the first time it was observed was as a debris from a hydrogen bomb a long time ago. Nowadays, you can produce it using nuclear reactors that have a very high neutron flux, so have a lot of energy. So you can create those reactions, nuclear reactions that will help producing this element.

CO: So, Einsteinium, it's highly radioactive then?

RA: It is, yes.

CO: So how difficult then is it to work with?

RA: We have a lot of safety controls in place in our laboratories. So it's not difficult, persay as we are used to being working with radioactive materials. The difficulty is, because it is so radioactive, it decays very fast in that it disappears fast. And we had a very small quantity available. And so you have to be very precise just because we're dealing with such small quantities, it's difficult to watch where you're doing. But we also have to be quick in what we do because first of all, we don't want to wait too long until it disappears and we don't have enough anymore. And also, we don't want to unnecessarily expose workers to some radiation. So you don't want to be handling the sample for too long.

CO: When you say the sample is very small, what are you talking about? How small is it?

RA: We're talking about nanograms. So quantities that you can't really see with the naked eye. It's hard to imagine. You know, we'll put it in a solution and it's something like water so that we can actually manipulate it and then we'll dry it up, but we can't see it. So we have to use very advanced detectors so we can actually detect it.

CO: Okay so this is highly radioactive. You can't even see it with the naked eye -- it's so small. And it's disappearing as you work.

RA: That's right.

CO: Could it be more difficult?

RA: It's a bit tricky.

CO: What do you want to learn from this sample?

RA: We want to learn the fundamental chemical properties of the element. We want to know how it behaves when it's in the presence of other atoms and other molecules. That way we can learn really fundamental knowledge about the periodic table, about all of the elements. We can establish trends in their chemical behaviour.

CO: Again, Grade nine science -- just maybe expand on that.

RA: Einsteinium is in a region of the periodic table where we don't really have -- you know, we have a lot of radioactive materials, we don't have access to much of those elements. And any little information we get is important. For example, how is it forming a chemical bond with other atoms, other elements? How is it reacting? So that maybe we can learn from this, we can predict a trend across the different rows and columns of the periodic table, and we can imagine some new applications, some use of those properties.

CO: Like what? Can you describe some of the applications -- real world applications -- that might be useful?

RA: Well, okay. Real world application of Einsteinium would be a little bit tricky. But everybody has heard of plutonium and uranium and other elements in the series where Einsteinium sits in the periodic table and those are important for nuclear power. There are other elements in that series that are important for radiopharmaceuticals. So the more knowledge we build on the elements and the whole series, the more we'll get to use the series for different applications.

CO: Do you think this is something -- I mean, besides dangerous applications -- this is something that could be used in science, medicine? Is that what you're thinking?

RA: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

CO: How far away are you from actually seeing that being applied in some way?

RA: So directly with Einsteinium, we're pretty far just because we, again, don't have much of it. And it's hard to imagine a direct application, but we're pretty close with other elements. So other elements like Actinium that are in the same series. So it's not unheard of. Actinium is already used in some radiopharmaceuticals that are in clinical studies right now.

CO: But even as we speak, your sample is disappearing. So how much time do you have left?

RA: So we don't have much left of this one. Now the experiments we're doing are really based on detecting it's disappearing radioactivity. But every other year, the Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee goes through production campaigns. And we hope that, a year from now, they'll start a new production campaign and we'll have a new sample to work with and we'll get to know more.

CO: I guess it's pretty obvious that Einsteinium is derived from Albert Einstein's name. So what do you think he would say about your research?

RA: Oh my. [Laughs] I would hope he would encourage us to stay curious and keep exploring because there is so much to discover about our world, about the elements that constitute our world.

CO: All right, Rebecca, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

RA: Thank you very much.

CH: Rebecca Abergel was part of a Berkeley research team that uncovered new facts about the rare element Einsteinium. We reached her in Berkeley, California.

February 10, 2021 Episode Transcript

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