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The AIH Transcript for February 4, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight...

CO: The Federal Court of Appeals says Ottawa's consultations with First Nations on the Trans Mountain pipeline were reasonable and meaningful -- but a BC chief says the ruling puts his people at risk.

CH: Reopening wounds. He survived abuse at a residential school, his claim for compensation was rejected -- and when the federal government asked him to try again, it rejected him a second time.

CO: A disarming action in Canada. Most gun deaths are suicides, which is why one emergency doctor says a red flag law is urgently needed -- though gun ownership advocates take that as a warning of their own.

CH: It looked better then on paper. But introducing a shiny new app to tally results of the Iowa Democratic caucus failed miserably, resulting in a state of confusion that has our guest calling for a total rethink.

CO: Sounds crazy, but it just might fly. His predecessor bought it, but he doesn't want it and nobody's buying so now Mexico's president has decided to unload his unused Boeing jumbo jet in a raffle.

CH: And rebel with 18 claws. She's the world's worst cat, according to her former shelter. But we have an update: she's been adopted. And her new owner will tell us what Perdita thinks of her new digs. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that seriously hopes she finds them up to scratch.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Iowa Democrat describes a night of caucus chaos and confusion

Trans Mountain decision

Guest: Lee Spahan

CH: The Trudeau government's pipeline just got a big thumbs up from the Federal Court of Appeal. In a 3-nothing decision, the court ruled that the government's consultations with First Nations about the Trans Mountain pipeline had been, quote, "reasonable and meaningful." The ruling clears another major hurdle in the plan to pump more than a million barrels of bitumen every day from Alberta's oil sands to the BC coast. Here's Seamus O'Regan -- the Natural Resources Minister -- after he got the news.

SOUNDCLIP

SEAMUS O'REGAN: What this demonstrates is courts have acknowledged that we listened and that we want to do things right. And the way to do them is not to try and subvert consultations, but to do them in a meaningful and real way. And when you do that, you can get things built in this way.

CH: Lee Spahan is the Chief of the Coldwater Indian Band. It was among the First Nations that brought the case to the Federal Court of Appeal.

CO: Chief Spahan you just heard Minister O'Regan say that the Federal Court of Appeal has acknowledged that his government did things right. So what message are you taking from the court?

LEE SPAHAN: Well, with today's court decision, it was a very disappointing. Coldwater's chief and council are very disappointed in the court's decision. And for him to say that they did the consultation in the right way, I have a problem with that. And you know, I think it should have been in a respectful way.

CO: But, you know, aside from how Mr. Regan characterizes it -- the court itself, the Federal Court of Appeal, 3 to 0 decision, saying really strong language, claiming that the previous concerns were, quote, "adequately addressed." That reasonable and meaningful consultation had taken place. And that shortcomings in earlier consultation process had been addressed. That meaningful consultants had gone from the Crown to have a two way dialog. The court has come out saying that it was reasonable and meaningful. So what do you say to the court?

LS: Well, I totally disagree that it was done in a meaningful way. And you know, the biggest concern that we have is, is the protection of our water aquifer, our sole source of drinking water for our community members and for the future generations that are not even here yet.

CO: And do you feel that that was heard by the court? That you're concerned -- that what you were trying to protect is that water aquifer?

LS: Well I don't think the court even heard that. You know in my mind it seemed like they already made up their mind. You know, even with alternative routes. We asked for information from Trans Mountain, and six months. And then they are saying, oh, we thought we got that to you. How can they say it's meaningful? You know, like when we ask for information and we expect to get it in a timely manner.

CO: I guess the most significant thing the court has concluded -- and it is precedent setting -- is that it says that Indigenous people can assert their uncompromising opposition to a project, but consultation cannot give them a veto. What does that tell you?

LS: What it tells me -- you hear Justin Trudeau say, oh we want to talk about reconciliation and the relationship that we have with First Nations, has to be there. And you know, why does it take like we have to go to court? And even when we do win in court battles, you know, whether it's a provincial government or the federal government, they don't uphold was rulings. And that's frustrating not only for myself and my council, but from my membership. And it's very frustrating how the government of Canada says, well we want to talk about reconciliation. And they talked about UNDRIP -- you know, that never happened. So they should oh, well, we need to talk about reconciliation. But when you talk about reconciliation, they say, oh, well, what do you think first? They won't even answer because they don't know how to answer it.

CO: I guess now establishing that consultation means that the federal government has to talk to First Nations, but doesn't have to do what they ask. That in the end they can do what they're planning to do, which is to build the pipeline.

LS: Well, you know, that's what they said when they purchased the pipeline: It's in the best interest of Canada and Canadians. And yet they don't listen to the people in Burnaby. And you know how the BC provincial government even said, no, we don't even want it. You know, we just want the respect from the government of Canada. And they say, well, you always talk about meaningful, and yet the court decision says it was meaningful. Well in our eyes, it wasn't meaningful because they never listened to us.

CO: I think, as you know, that of the Indigenous groups who potentially could be affected by the Trans Mountain pipeline, that's about 120 of 129, either support the project or don't oppose it. And that 43 Indigenous groups have signed benefit agreements. So what about their rights?

LS: Well, you know, every time I get asked about that question, you know, every community is different. And I say, but are they impacted the same way Coldwater is? Because you looked at how the Coldwater Band is impacted, because from the east end to the west end, the pipeline goes right through the centre of our reserve, right through the centre. And it crosses two creeks. And with the sole source of drinking water for 90 percent of the community you know, that's the big difference.

CO: Chief Spahan where do you take your fight from here?

LS: Well, you know, council and myself, we will sit down with our legal team and we will consider all options.

CO: Is the Supreme Court one of those options?

LS: Yes, it is. It is a consideration. But the direction that we got was, you know, we need to protect our aquifer, our sole source of drinking water. Not only for today, but for the future generations of those children that aren't even born yet.

CO: So you're not giving up?

LS: Absolutely not.

CO: Chief Spahan I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LS: Thank you for having me.

CH: Lee Spahan is the chief of the Coldwater Indian Band. Alberta Premier Jason Kenney was in Montreal when he got the Federal Court of Appeals decision. Here's some of what he said to reporters.

SOUNDCLIP

JASON KENNEY: I want to underscore that the decision today said 129 First Nations groups were consulted and at least 120 were in favor or not opposed. That's the number we should keep our eye fixed on. I know that most of the coverage is focused on two or three groups who remain opposed. We also need to listen to the 120 who are in favor or not opposed. That's what the court did today.

REPORTER: There are some in Alberta who seem to believe that the federal Liberals didn't really want the Trans Mountain expansion to go through despite buying and approving the project. I'm wondering if you also believe that.

JASON KENNEY: Well, apparently not. The prime minister has reconfirmed for me, every time we've spoken, his government's commitment to complete this project. They did, after all, end up buying Kinder Morgan's transmission project for about 4.7-billion dollars. And frankly, we appreciate that. I have my disagreements with Prime Minister Trudeau on a number of issues. His government killed Northern Gateway and Energy East. But I think they did realize that there has to be at least one project that gets Canadian energy to global markets so we can get a fair price. I think his government understands there has to be a balance, and we agree. A balance between economic growth and environmental responsibility. We are committed to that. We are making huge investments to reduce carbon emissions in our economy and our energy industry. And I think that Prime Minister Trudeau's government understands that if Canada does not play a role in supplying global demand for energy, all we will do is leave a monopoly to the OPEC dictatorships in Vladimir Putin's Russia. That's not good for the environment. It's not good for global security and it's not good for human rights. So I think his government has made the right decision for Canada, a decision supported by the overwhelming majority of Aboriginal First Nations and of Canadians.

CH: Alberta Premier Jason Kenney speaking to reporters today in Montreal.

[Music]

CH: Lots more to come, of course, on As It Happens. And a reminder, you can always find lots more on our website about the stories we do. For instance, if you missed our interview with author Harlan Coben last night, you can find it at cbc.ca/aih. He was remembering his late friend and fellow author, Mary Higgins Clark, who was known as the Queen of Suspense. And Mr. Coben told us she loved everything about being a bestselling mystery writer. You can go to cbc.ca/aih for more.

[Music]

Iowa caucus app

Guest: Zach Simonson

CH: Politics is always messy, but it's not usually such a dog's breakfast in a dumpster fire. As you probably heard on the news last night, Democrats in Iowa gathered to vote on presidential candidates. The caucuses did not go well. The app the party planned to use failed, and the people gathering results ended up calling them in and spending hours on hold. One Democratic caucus secretary, Shawn Sebastian, called into CNN to talk to Wolf Blitzer while he was waiting in the queue.

SOUNDCLIP

SHAWN SEBASTIAN: I have been on hold for over an hour with the Iowa Democratic Party. And I'm just waiting on hold and doing my best to report the results from my office.

WOLF BLITZER: What are you hearing? I know you're listening to a conversation from the Iowa Democratic Party.

SHAWN SEBASTIAN: [Telephone sounds] So this is a real coincidence, Wolf. I just got off hold just now so I've got to get off the phone to report the results.

WOLF BLITZER: All right. Go ahead, report it. Can we listen in as you report them Shawn?

SHAWN SEBASTIAN: Yep.

WOLF BLITZER: All right. Let's listen.

SHAWN SEBASTIAN: All right. Okay. [Talking on the phone] Hi. Hello. [Talking to Wolf] They hung up on me. [Chuckles] They hung up on me.

CH: That was Iowa Democrat Shawn Sebastian on CNN last night. Late this afternoon, the party announced initial results showing Pete Buttigieg in the lead, Bernie Sanders in second place, and Elizabeth Warren in third. Zach Simonson is the Democratic Party chair in Wapello County, Iowa. We reached him in Ottumwa, Iowa, earlier today.

CO: Zach, was there any particular moment yesterday that told you that, well, that things were not going to go as planned in Iowa?

ZACH SIMONSON: I would say that the moment where I started to get worried was when I called into report my very first results about 7:30, and immediately had issues. They weren't prepared for receiving results. And once they were prepared for receiving results, they didn't know what to do with precincts that only elected one delegate -- the really small ones. They decided they were going to have to take that down with pen and paper and come back to it, which was a little worrying.

CO: What was going through your mind when you were this as a reaction to your attempts?

ZS: Yeah, I was really surprised. But I would say about 9 o'clock after we'd reported four of our precincts, we were put on a really long hold -- we never got someone on the phone until around midnight.

CO: After 90 minutes on hold, what happened?

ZS: Well, sure -- one thing I would say is that while we were on hold, we did get a call from IDP. So I answered that on another line and I talked to somebody who had had issues with one of my other precincts that reported their own results. He was in a room where it was so loud that he couldn't hear me respond to his question. And by the time I sorted that out with him, I came back to the other line and my call had finally been answered while I was away, and they had hung up. So I had to start all over. That was pretty frustrating. [Chuckles] But we eventually got through around midnight. The volunteer that took that call was excellent. And she did a really good job taking those. She said looks like you're probably about done, you might be able to get some sleep. And just as soon as I was getting ready to sleep, I got another call where I was told that I would need to report all of my precincts all over again.

CO: Do you know why?

ZS: Well, what I think might have happened, this was around 1:00 a.m. when Troy Price, the chair of the party, had given a statement that they were going to be verifying results. And I think they might have been calling to verify, but they didn't tell the volunteer that. He phrased it to say, why are all of Wapello County's results missing? Which wasn't the case. Obviously, we had been trying all night to get the results in. And so that was frustrating. But we did report those results. And I didn't get any more contact that night. But I have heard from a couple of my chairs that they were also woken up in the middle of the night with even more calls.

CO: Okay. Now, none of these phone calls was supposed to happen at all, right? Because there was supposed to be some app created for this reporting that people immediately found wasn't exactly as advertised. What happened with that app?

ZS: Yeah. So I would say that the app wasn't so much rolled out as just kind of dumped on the doorstep. And all of our chairs were sort of expected to download and use the app, but they weren't given instructions on how to do that. It was actually kind of complicated to install. For good reason, they wanted to have an added level of security. And then on caucus day, it was too late to download the app and people didn't know that. And I am really worried as well that they may have decided to staff the volunteers to take in results over the phone. They may have staffed that too low, expecting that people would use the app. But it just didn't work.

CO: So what do you make of how the Democratic Party handled this vote in Iowa?

ZS: I think that it's really frustrating. First of all, it turns out they weren't as prepared as they'd been claiming to be and that they weren't very good at communicating with us sort of on the ground. And the leadership wasn't ready to get the results in the right way and that's too bad. And also one thing that really frustrated me, I had a fantastic start to the day when we had our first satellite caucus, which was an opportunity for people who can't make it to the regular caucus, time shift workers in this case at a union local. And these were meatpacking plant workers. A lot of them were Ethiopian immigrants who were participating for the first time in a caucus. And it was excellent to see that we'd expanded access. I love that we were going to get to tell that story. And it's overshadowed now.

CO: But some people are questioning this whole caucus system that you have in Iowa. As a Canadian, I'll do my best to describe this process. But I understand that party members gathered together and they get to say who their first choice is. And as candidates are eliminated, they vote again for the next choice, but they do it in the open. Try to persuade others to join their camp. And I know that people in Iowa are really attached to this, but some are saying it might be time to scrap the caucus system. What do you think?

ZS: Well, first of all, that was a pretty great description of what happens on a caucus night. And you would be welcome to chair a meeting in Wapello County in four years. [Laughter] But I think there's some pretty fair criticisms of the caucus process. Julian Castro, when he was running for president, I gave him an introduction and I thanked him and said that it was brave that he came to Iowa and raised some concerns about the diversity of this state and about the process and how it leaves some people out. I think that right now, if we focus so much on this returns question, we're not really looking at those kind of broader questions, which either we're going to have to fix them to make the caucus more accessible. We're going to have to move to a more accessible way of voting that isn't a caucus or maybe we don't go first anymore. I think that's a fair conversation to have.

CO: And that's what people are suggesting that maybe you just don't go first anymore. That's something you'd be willing to entertain, even though it's sort of in the fiber of Iowans, isn't it?

ZS: It is. It's really something that we have a strong emotional attachment to. We're really proud of getting to go first. But we're also really proud that we're Democrats and that our party is the party of voting rights. And I know that for me and for a lot of other people, I would always put that voting rights bit ahead of anything else. And we'll have to see how it shakes out.

CO: We'll be watching how it shakes out. Zach thanks so much for speaking with us.

ZS: Thank you.

CH: Zach Simonson is the Democratic Party chair in Wapello County, Iowa. He was in Ottumwa, Iowa. We reached him earlier today.

[Music]

Perdita owner

Guest: Betty Genovese

CH: They say you can't start a relationship expecting someone to change. But Betty Genovese must surely be hoping her family's newest edition will at least stop staring darkly into people's souls. After all, Ms. Genovese and her partner Joe have opened their home to Perdita. She's the cat we told you about recently, the one a North Carolina animal shelter dubbed the world's worst. Perdita's habits include lurking in dark corners, growling, swatting, and generally being a jerk. And yet, Betty Genovese couldn't wait to bring her home. We reached Ms. Genovese in Munro County -- near Knoxville, Tennessee.

CO: Betty, first of all, how is life with your new cat?

BETTY GENOVESE: Interesting. One time she's really friendly and lovable, and the next minute she growls and runs under the bed. So I just...I don't know what to expect.

CO: And is that fun "Not know how to expect" or less than fun?

BG: It's a fun. You know, yesterday she would come and she would be loving. And I sit on the floor with her. So I'm not overbearing. And she actually crawled in my lap yesterday and I didn't know what to do. I was a little surprised. And then later on in the evening, when I went in there to spend time with her, all she did was growl at me and then run into the bed. So it's kind of fun to see what kind of mood she is in.

CO: She was described -- we spoke with the shelter when they said that she could stare into your soul until you feel as if you may never feel cheerful again.

BG: Yes, we saw that moment one time. [Laughter]

CO: Do you still have moments of cheer or is it pretty bleak since she entered your life?

BG: I tell you, the first 24 hours, I was a little scared. When bringing her home, she was so happy and purring because we let her run around the car because it was a three and a half hour drive. The minute we stopped to get her in her carrier, we saw the evil side. So after that, it was like, okay we're going to have to walk very softly around her. No sudden moves.

CO: And what is the evil side like?

BG: Oh, she'll show you her teeth and she'll stare at you and she will freeze and look at you. It's like, okay, what is she contemplating now? [Laughs]

CO: And now the shelter that we spoke with -- Amber Lowery, who was the one who put the ad out for anyone who wanted to take to adopt what she called the world's worst cat. Did you know you were getting the world's worst cat when you took her in?

BG: Not necessarily. We have other cats and they all have their moods. So we figured it was just, you know, she's just kind of being herself. So when we did first meet her, she was very lovable. But I did notice, I overstimulated her and she went to take a snap at me. But, you know, that was my fault. You just got to take it all in stride.

CO: When we talked to Amber, she said that they at one point had thought that Perdita wasn't well, that she might be sick. And they took her to the vet. And the vet said, no, she's fine...she's just a jerk.

BG: Yeah, I saw that. But I think she just likes to fool everybody. We're still learning her game.

CO: She's also, according to Amber and the ad she put out that she's a grumpy cat who doesn't like pink, doesn't like kittens or dogs or children, The Dixie Chicks, Disney movies, she doesn't like Christmas, and does not like hugs. So are you offering her any of the above?

BG: Not yet. She's currently in a transition area so that we can slowly get used to her surroundings. So as far as the hugs, we don't want to do anything where we end up getting scratched or bitten. So we're going to let her do that on her terms.

CO: Do you have other cats?

BG: We do. We are the crazy cat people. We do have six.

CO: You have six cats already?

BG: Yes. But, you know, we started with our first one who was abused and abandoned. And after that, it was just all about saving them and giving them a better life. We had no problem taking in one more.

CO: All your cats are rescue cats.

BG: All of them. Yes.

CO: And do you have enough space for them in your house?

BG: We have 4200 square feet in the house. We have a 240 square foot patio. We have 118 square foot deck that is made for them. And then they have a front area.

CO: You have a catio instead of a patio?

BG: Yes. It has artificial turf and it has a waterfall and it has lounging rocks for our cats that they can go and listen to the water.

CO: This sounds like cat paradise.

BG: [Chuckles] Well, I mean, we just love our animals. I mean, we're just trying to be a voice for them.

CO: And has Perdita been able to explore this new wonderland that she has?

BG: Not yet. We're letting her wrap her self around our legs and then we go out and interact with our other cats and then vise versa. That way they can get used to the sense. In about a week, we're going to put a screen up so that they can start see each other. We just don't want to cause trauma to either them or to her.

CO: Now you've changed Perdita's his name. Why is that?

BG: She was saved on Christmas Eve, so we thought it would be great to call her Noel -- which means Christmas, the NOEL. And we figured that would be a perfect name. But, I have to say, she's a sweet little girl.

CO: Well, it sounds like she's found a loving home. If there's a chance for Noel to adapt, it sounds like 4200 square feet of cat paradise. I think you can't do better than that.

BG: Yeah, she's a mess. But we love her.

CO: Well, Betty, I'm glad she found a home and thanks for speaking with us.

BG: You're very welcome. Have a good day.

CH: Betty Genovese and her partner Joe are the proud new owners, I think of Perdita or Noel the cat. We reached Ms. Genovese near Knoxville, Tennessee.

[Music]

Part 2: Doctor says proposed 'red flag' gun laws will help physicians save lives

Residential school claim

Guest: Percy Wallace

CH: Percy Wallace survived residential school. Now his lawyer says he's being victimized by the Canadian government again. As a kid, Mr. Wallace attended the Sechelt residential school in British Columbia. He says he was sexually assaulted by another student there. Decades later, when Mr. Wallace applied for compensation, he was rejected. In cases of student on student abuse like his, it must be proven that officials were aware or at least should have been aware that the abuse was going on. After that rejection, Mr. Wallace all but gave up hope. That was until recently, when he was encouraged to apply again, but he was rejected again. We reached Percy Wallace on the Lil'wat First Nation near Pemberton, British Columbia.

CO: Mr. Wallace, what was it like for you to go through this process all over again, only to be rejected a second time?

PERCY WALLACE: You're disappointed the first time, you get over it. Then second time your hope comes back and then you've got all these ideas of what you can do to make your life better and you know have people believe your story that you've been doing for years and then to get shot down again is...I can't explain. It just brought back not only the bad memories, but, you know, a little bit more hate for certain things. And, you know, I couldn't tolerate a lot of things too much because I had a lot of negative in my mind for quite a while.

CO: Now, you put yourself through this a second time. But you didn't initiate it, right? The Canadian government approached you to reapply for this compensation, is that right?

PW: Yes. And that's what got my hopes up. I don't know why or how they think they can do that to somebody -- to contact us and then deny us again.

CO: So they open up your case and they open up the wounds.

PW: Yeah.

CO: So as I understand this, the federal government made an announcement in 2018 that it would be pursuing negotiated settlements with survivors of what they call student-on-student abuse. And those were cases that had been dismissed or they were under-compensated in the past. The federal government said there were around 240 of these eligible cases. And the government told your lawyer that you were one of them.

PW: Yes.

CO: We make it clear that the adjudicator investigated your claim for this assault and said it was proven that there is no question that this happened to you in the 1970s. Is that correct?

PW: Yes.

CO: I'm not going to ask you what happened. I think that that's a wound you don't need to reopen given that it's been accepted. But I will ask you, in your mind, is it something that the school or the authorities should have been able to prevent or could have been able to prevent from happening to you?

PW: Yes they could have prevented it in a lot of ways. Having better supervision. This student was there before me and I'm pretty sure everybody knew what was happening. But, you know, nothing happened. You get to school, you get woken up for no reason, you get straps 10 times in each hand, and you get told to get back to bed. You know, you don't say anything. You just keep your mouth shut. Behave.

CO: That's what happened to you when you reported what the other student had done?

PW: No. This is what happens when I first got there. I thought maybe I had a phone call from my parents because I was the only one woken up that night to go into the office and put my hands out and I got 10 straps every time.

CO: What long lasting effects did that abuse have on you?

PW: I don't know if I can just name one. But there is a lot of stuff that I wished didn't happen in my life. You know, things kind of turned out different. It has taken a long time to find out who I am. Which I think I'm getting to do now. I like who I am. I like where I'm going. I love my family and my friends. They keep me strong.

CO: You have a lot of grandkids in your family.

PW: Yes. I have 12 grandkids.

CO: Really?

PW: Yeah. I had to count the other day. The bad thoughts I had before, suicide and other painful crap -- you know, the family and friends are there. Grandkids. Kids. You know, I get to see them every day. So it's helped with moving on when you keep getting bad news from same people.

CO: And you were moving on, you were doing that, and then the Canadian government contacted you.

PW: Yeah.

CO: And then rejected you again.

PW: Yeah. So, you know, I'm in the process of moving on again. One of the things that kind of makes me want to fight more is that there's other men out there who've been through what I've been through and worse, and they don't want to do anything, they don't want no compensation, they don't want anybody to know because this is what can happen -- just get denied. And why open up a wound that's never going to heal? So let's just stay in the dark and hide because nobody will believe.

CO: You know that the government sent your lawyer a letter and said, that I understand that your client is disappointed. Please pass on my best wishes on his healing journey. What do you want to say to the government now?

PW: They don't understand the pain. And sending their best wishes...it is just false words. They do not believe in having best wishes for anyone when they're part of the problem that is causing people pain -- unnecessary pain -- by a lot of stuff. There is a lot of things they don't understand.

CO: Mr. Wallace, I'm very sorry this has happened to you -- all of it from the 1970s to now. But I appreciate how generous you were to tell us the story. I think it's helpful for others to hear it.

PW: That's what I wanted. I wanted others to hear it.

CO: Very generous of you.

PW: To let them know that they're not the only ones.

CO: Please take care.

PW: All right, thank you very much.

CH: That was Percy Wallace. We reached him on the Lil'Wat First Nation in British Columbia. We reached out to Carolyn Bennett, Minister of Crown Indigenous Relations, but we didn't hear back before we went to air tonight.

[Music]

Wenjun Wang

CH: Chinese authorities are working at breakneck speed to build massive hospitals in mere days. But for the thousands of patients infected with the new coronavirus, it's not enough. 427 people have died from the virus so far. More than 20,000 people have contracted it. And some families feel helpless. This morning, the BBC spoke with a woman in Wuhan named Wenjun Wang. She's already lost her uncle to the virus. And she's desperately trying to find a bed for her gravely ill father. Here is Wenjun Wang speaking to BBC host Razia Iqbal this morning through an interpreter.

SOUNDCLIP

WENJUN WANG: My father is critically ill now. And my mom and aunt have started showing some symptoms. And the CT scan shows their lungs are infected.

RAZIA IQBAL: Tell me Wenjun, are your mother an aunt and father in hospital?

WENJUN WANG: They are at home. My dad has a high fever now. His temperature was 39.3 yesterday, and he's constantly coughing and having breathing difficulties. My moment out walk to the hospital every day in the hope of getting a bed for my dad, but no hospital would take them. The situation here now in Wuhan is -- there's many quarantine points to accommodate patients who have slight symptoms or who are still in the incubation period. But for people who are critically ill, like my father, there are no beds for them. My uncle actually died in one of the quarantine points. The quarantine point that they asked my uncle and my dad to go. We thought it was a hospital at the beginning. But it turned out to be a hotel. There was no nurse or doctor, and there was no heater. They went in the afternoon and the staff there served them a cold dinner that evening. My uncle was very ill then with severe respiratory symptoms and started losing consciousness. But no doctor came to treat him. He and my dad stayed in separate rooms, and when dad went to see him in the morning at 6:30 he had already passed away.

CH: That was Wenjun Wang, a 33 year old woman in Wuhan. Her uncle, died of the new coronavirus, and she has other family members who are infected and quarantined in Wuhan, China.

[Music]

Gun removals

Guest: Alan Drummond

CH: Most gun deaths in Canada are not murders, they're suicides. Dr. Alan Drummond knows that firsthand. He's an emergency department doctor and he has seen what can happen when someone with suicidal thoughts has access to a firearm. That's why he's spent years pushing for the federal government to create red flag legislation -- a law that would make it easier for people like him to ask of the authorities to take guns away when necessary. And now the public safety minister says he plans to do just that. We reached Dr. Alan Drummond in Perth, Ontario.

CO: Dr. Drummond, when someone comes into your emergency room expressing suicidal thoughts, what are your obligations?

ALAN DRUMMOND: To protect them principally. And it's pretty clear cut when somebody comes in, and as they often do in any emergency department in this country, with a suicidal plan. Then it's pretty straightforward. I mean, our number one obligation is to protect them from themselves and their impulses. We usually put them on a mandatory psychiatric evaluation order. They are sent to a psychiatric facility where they are evaluated and treated. The bigger problem is that we see a significant number of people coming in the emergency department who have depression or psychoses, let's say -- and they may have a thought process that suggests that suicide is a potential but is not a direct threat.

CO: Okay, so those are people who are going to go home. And so the question becomes, do you have an obligation -- are you able to assess whether or not they have fire arms at home?

AD: Well, we should. And I think part of the process needs to be a greater awareness of the risk of firearms in the home, both from a suicide (and) domestic violence perspective. And so physicians probably need a greater understanding of the need to ask about firearms. But no. And so that's the problem, is that, you know, if somebody shows up at 3:00 o'clock in the morning and they're having suicidal thoughts, I do a risk assessment, feel that they are not in imminent danger. But I'm going to send them home. I don't know if I'm sending them home to a loaded shotgun or I don't know if I'm sending them home to an arsenal in their basement. And that's a bit of a problem. You know, there are ways of reporting people at risk, but it's bureaucratic and slow and doesn't really answer the imminent clinical need that they may have in the wee hours of the morning.

CO: Do you have examples of that? Do you have times when you did not admit a patient, sent that person home, thinking that there's a good chance that there's a gun in the house?

AD: Well, it most certainly has happened. And, you know, every department has the horror story of having assessed somebody, sent them home, and they go home and then shoot themselves.

CO: Has that happened to you?

AD: Not directly. But it has certainly happened in our hospital. You know, the thing is this the whole gun control thing really over the last three decades has largely been about urban gangs with smuggled handguns. And completely ignores the reality on the ground that 75 percent of all firearm deaths in this country are secondary to suicide. And it's refreshing I think the recent announcement of Bill Blair, the Minister for Public Safety, that there will be some consideration now given to the greatest cause of far more mortality in this country, which is firearms.

CO: That's a stat that we should probably repeat. And it comes from the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians. And they say that about 80 percent of all firearm deaths in Canada are suicides. So that's shocking, because we don't often hear that.

AD: We don't. And that's kind of what, you know, has been the problem. And I mean, I think I understand what the rationale is for a discussion of criminality. It makes a lot of Canadians feel very uncomfortable in their own communities when bullets are flying around -- and 7 year olds are Hamilton being shot through the door by a bullet. So I understand that entirely. But I think if there was more emphasis placed on on suicide and particularly rural suicides, then there would be a much broader discussion. I mean, it's worth repeating, 75 to 80 percent of all firearm deaths in this country are secondary to suicide. And that is a number I think that we can positively intervene with to hopefully reduce this tragic toll for families.

CO: Okay. So now the Canadian government, Public Safety Minister Bill Blair has said that he wants a law that is called a "red flag" law that would allow people like yourself, in addition to police and lawyers, educators, families, to petition the courts to have guns removed from someone who may be at risk of harming themself or somebody else. So what do you think of that? Do you think that would make people safer?

AD: Yes. As a member of the Canadian Association Emergency Physicians and their chief spokesperson on gun control since 1993, we've been advocating for this for several decades now. It's a gap in the law that's been acknowledged by Mr. Blair now. Your guess is as good as mine in terms of what the nuts and bolts of that would be -- this kind of petitioning in courts sounds very bureaucratic. It would be far easier for us to be able to call the police from the emergency department at 3:00 in the morning and say, I'm sending this guy home, but I don't know if he has an arsenal in his basement -- is there any way we could temporarily remove the firearms, reduce his risk of access, reduce his risk of completion of a suicide or a psychotic delusional act until such time that we can get satisfactory treatment and get the mental disruption improved?

CO: Do you think that there be a fair bit of pushback from those who'd say, well, that's a violation of people's privacy?

AD: Oh, I think for sure. In 2003 in Ontario my colleague, Dr. Howard Ovens got the government is a day to make it a mandated law so that if anybody showed up in an emergency department with a gunshot wound, that the police be immediately notified on the belief that, you know, as bullets are flying around and other people may be at risk. At that time, even though this made perfect sense, there was a lot of pushback both within the profession because of fear of breaching confidentiality, but also the pro-gun lobby, which, you know, takes any potential improvement in our gun laws as some kind of infringement on their perceived rights. So, yes, there will be blowback and yes, there will be pushback. And people say, well, you know, you'll prevent people from seeking help. Well, that may be true, but I think in the long run, we'll probably save more lives than we'll lose again.

CO: Again, being in a small town as you are, you're more familiar with rural community in Canada. And there's a different attitude toward gun ownership, isn't there?

AD: There is. I mean I own weapons. All my neighbours own firearms. Hunting is a major pastime in rural Canada. Every two weeks, November, you can't get your car fixed or your toilet fixed because everybody is off hunting with the boys. So gun ownership is prevalent. But if you look at the Canadian data, it's pretty clear that those communities which tend to be more rural, tend to have higher firearm suicide rates. Even if we could save one Canadian life like would not be worth the effort of at least trying it?

CO: We will leave it there. We will be following what happens in Ottawa with this. Dr. Drummond it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

AD: Also. You're very welcome. Take care.

CH: Alan Drummond is a doctor in Perth, Ontario. He's also a member of the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians. You can find more on that story on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih. And you can reach the Canada Suicide Prevention Service 24 hours a day at: 1-833-456-4566.

[Music]

Unwanted Plane

CH: Long ago, if the King of Siam hated someone, he would give them a terrible present. Expensive to fuel. Impossible to get rid of. It just stood around filling your yard with excrement. And that's the origin of the term "white elephant" -- a gift no one wants. Of course, that whole legend is a load of elephant manure, but it does neatly sum up the idea of a big clunky thing you cannot unload. Like, say, a massive Boeing 787 Dreamliner. Like a white elephant, it's white, it's expensive to fuel, and Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador just cannot get rid of it. His predecessor paid nearly 300 million Canadian for it. President Lopez Obrador is now offering it for slightly over half that price. He offered it to the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Canada. No takers. So now the Mexican President wants to raffle it off. He introduced the plan at a news conference last week. Here's how journalists reacted when Mr. Lopez Obrador unveiled an image of the raffle ticket.

SOUNDCLIP

[Man speaking in Spanish]

[Crowd talking and chuckling]

CH: That was laughter and baffled murmuring. But the president was serious. He genuinely wants people to buy tickets at about 30 bucks Canadian for a shot at winning the plane. And it was pretty clear he's desperate. One hint came when he told reporters, "Help me." So far, no one will. So that unwanted Boeing Dreamliner is still Mr. Lopez Obrador's nightmare. And most Mexicans believe that if he thinks a raffle will get rid of that white elephant, he's living in an elephantasy world.

[Music]

Marylene Levesque

CH: An update now on a story we told you about last week: Conservative Party leader Andrew Scheer wants Parliament's Public Safety Committee to look into the killing of Marylene Levesque. The Quebec City sex worker was found murdered in a hotel room in January. The man accused is Eustachio Gallese -- who was out on parole at the time. He's serving a life sentence for killing his spouse in 2004. Parole Board documents show the board raising concerns about what they call a strategy put forward by Mr. Gallese's probation officer, whereby he would not be allowed to have relationships with women except to satisfy his, quote, "sexual needs." Here's Andrew Scheer raising the issue with Public Safety Minister Bill Blair in Question Period this afternoon.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: What actually happened was that a violent murderer was encouraged to seek the services of a sex worker. That is unacceptable. And a parliamentary committee has the right and the obligation to do its work to find out what happened. Now, Marylene Levesuqe did not deserve to die because of someone's decision like this. Today, the Minister of Justice introduced a bill to require new sexual assault training for judges, but it is silent on training for members of the parole board. Given recent events, will the government expand this training to ensure parole board members and parole officers receive similar training for public safety?

BILL BLAIR: Mr. Speaker, the bill that was introduced today, I think is a very important one, and I'm encouraged to hear the member opposite's and party opposite's support for it. We believe that training is very important. And one of the things that will be examined in the investigation currently undertaken is to look at the policies, procedures, and training currently available to all members who are involved in this activity. And so, Mr. Speaker, we do certainly support where training is required that it be made available, and that it be effective in ensuring such a tragedy does not occur again.

ANDREW SCHEER: Well, we're encouraged that they have decided to adopt our bill. But the fact remains that Marylene Levesque was murdered because of decisions made by people involved in approving her release plans. So simple question, are the people who approved a release plan that included a violent murderer getting services from a sex worker still hearing cases today?

BILL BLAIR: I think it's important to recognize that in this particular tragic case, the parole board actually issued rather explicit and written instructions that that was not to occur. Now unfortunately and tragically, someone has made that decision and that individual will be held to account. And that individual is not currently involved in any decision making with respect to any prisoner. We are going to ensure that we get the facts of this case, Mr. Speaker. And we will act on those facts to make sure that this terrible tragedy never occurs again.

CH: That was Public Safety Minister Bill Blair responding to questions from Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer in Question Period today. Marylene Levesque's killing has raised questions about respect for the lives of sex workers in Canada. And a Conservative MP's attempt to answer one of those questions has him scrambling to apologize. His name is Arnold Viersen. And today in the House of Commons, he responded to these remarks from the NDP's Laurel Collins.

SOUNDCLIP

LAUREL COLLINS: I would ask the honorable member to consider listening to the voices of sex workers. Sex workers are saying that sex work is work. And I also ask the honorable member if he considers the Harper government's decision to implement Bill 36, which criminalized the work environments, the establishment that sex workers go to to feel safe. They criminalized their ability to hire security. If he acknowledges that this is a factor in this death and many others.

VOICE: Member for Peace River--Westlock.

ARNOLD VIERSEN: I would just respond to that by asking the honorable member across the way if it's a area of work that she has considered and if that is an appropriate...Mr. Speaker, I think this makes the point. This makes the point. I do not think any woman in this country ever chooses this as a job. This is something that they are trafficked into. This is something that we have to work hard to end in Canada. Prostitution in Canada is inherently, inherently dangerous and is something that we must work hard to ensure that all Canadians have a safe place, a safe place to live in this country. And we do not want to see our women and girls forced into prostitution. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

CH: That was Conservative MP Arnold Viersen responding to the NDP's Laurel Collins. Mr. Viersen subsequently apologised to Ms. Collins, both in the House and on Twitter. She responded by writing, quote, "I'm glad Arnold Viersen apologised to me, but I invite him to extend his apology to all women. Denigrating sex work and criminalizing the very things that would keep sex workers safe, contribute to increased violence."

[Music]

Frank Plummer

CH: Dr. Frank Plummer felt like he was just getting his life back. After years of struggling with alcoholism, he was finally writing a book. He was walking his dog. He was cooking up a storm all thanks to experimental brain surgery. He told us all about it last December. So it came as a shock for us to learn today that he died this week. He was 67 years old. Dr. Plummmer was in Nairobi for a keynote speech about HIV/AIDS research. Reports say he collapsed and was taken to hospital where he was pronounced dead. No cause of death has been given. He was a towering figure in research on infectious diseases. He was on the frontlines of health scares like Ebola and SARS. But his public admission last year that he had struggled with alcoholism revealed a side of Frank Plummer that most didn't know about. Here's what he told Carol in December about why he decided to try out deep brain stimulation.

SOUNDCLIP

FP: Well, I was struggling with alcohol. And I exhausted I think pretty much everything -- residential treatment programs, individual counseling, drugs, all that kind of thing. And it wasn't making the whole difference. They all helped for a little while. And so when I was made aware of this new study, I thought yeah -- what the hell? Let's go for it. Otherwise, I was going to die.

CO: I want to ask you about your struggle with alcohol. When did it begin? When did you realize that you had a problem?

FP: Well, I really didn't realize I had a problem until my liver failed in about 2012. Before that, I was drinking to relieve stress, grieve, and to celebrate and to do all those things people use alcohol for. I drank a lot. But I never thought I had a problem. I was not kind of a falling down drunk. I just drank and sat in the corner and thought. And then my liver suddenly packed it in and suddenly I was confronted with chronic illness that was ultimately fatal if I didn't get treatment for it.

CO: You were also under a lot of stress, right? I mean you were going back and forth to Nairobi. You were dealing with complex health issues like H1N1, with SARS, with Ebola. I mean you had a lot of things that must have been really difficult to grapple with. And plus all the travel, I guess.

FP: My whole life has been one of huge stress. When I was working in Nairobi leading our project there, survival for the project depended on my ability to find money. And that was always stressful. And then when I took the job in Winnipeg, suddenly I had to deal with a whole new kind of stress in the public eye, under a microscope, basically in dealing with SARS, H1N1, Ebola, plus managing 500 people with all the kinds of things that might happen. My days were: get up at 6:30 in the morning, coffee, and a shower, and then get on a call to Ottawa, come home and then get into the office and deal with whatever is coming that day. It's exhilarating in many ways, but hugely stressful.

CO: And so at the peak, how much were you actually drinking?

FP: At my peak I was drinking about 20 ounces of whiskey a day -- in the evenings.

CO: Were you aware that that was a lot?

FP: I knew it was a lot, but I managed it. I never drank during the day. And I used it as a drug to relax. And I kind of survived during the days on adrenaline. It kept me going.

CO: So now this treatment -- you went through and you tried everything else. You said if you didn't come up with something, that your life was in danger. So what exactly is this new technique? What have they actually done that is helping you?

FP: The procedure is called deep brain stimulation. And what is done is a neurosurgeon drills holes in your skull and inserts a little wire electrodes deep down into your brain to a part of the brain called the nucleus accumbens. They attach those wires to a little pacemaker type device that constantly puts a little electrical stimuli into brain. That particular part of the brain is very involved in rewards that is really important in addiction. This procedures seems to short circuit or change the circuit, kind of rewires the brain.

CO: And what's the effect? What's it like for you? I mean how does it stop you from or does it completely stop you from drinking alcohol?

FP: Basically took away my cravings for alcohol. It made me change my mood hugely. Before this procedure, I was pretty depressed and pretty much waiting to die. Now, I have a zest for life that I haven't had for a long time. I'm doing all kinds of things. Working on an HIV vaccine, which I'm very excited about, I'm writing my book, terrorizing the neighbourhood with my dog and cooking up a storm. So life is good.

CO: And if it hadn't been for getting into deep brain stimulation, what do you think your future would have been?

FP: I'd be dead like several months ago.

CO: I understand your wife has been a great support during all this.

FP: Oh, my wife -- my wife Jo has saved my life many times, got me through it all.

CO: Well, she got you through it and now you are continuing your work in getting other people through things and saving lives. So it's good for all of us that you're healthy again. Dr. Plummer, thank you.

FP: You're very welcome.

CH: That was Carol's conversation with Dr. Frank Plummer last December. The renowned Canadian doctor died this week. He was 67.

[Music]

Part 3: Yemen medical flights

Yemen medical flights

Guest: Sultana Begum

CH: It took 18 months of negotiations to deliver emergency medical care to 30 people in Yemen. Yesterday, seven of those Yemenis boarded a plane to Jordan. It was the first commercial flight from Yemen's rebel-held capital of Sanaa in more than three years. 23 more Yemenis with grave medical issues will depart on another flight later this week. It's a small glimmer of hope in a country that's been mired in nearly five years of brutal civil war with Saudi Arabia and its allies battling Yemen's Houthi rebels. The conflict has left more than 100,000 people dead. Sultana Begum is the advocacy manager in Yemen for the Norwegian Refugee Council. We reached her in Sanaa.

CO: Ms. Begum we know there are thousands of Yemenis that need urgent medical care. So what is significant that you have 30 of them who are finally going to be flown out to get it?

SULTANA BEGUM: This is a hugely significant move. Thousands of families who have chronic medical conditions who have been unable to leave the country since the closure of Sanaa Airport since August 2016. These people are really desperate. They're very sick and they're losing hope. This move is a lifeline for them at the moment.

CO: Can you give us a sense of how gravely ill these people are who are going to be getting this treatment? What kinds of ailments are they suffering from?

SB: The seven patients that are being flown out of Sanaa yesterday -- they're mainly women and children, very young children between the ages of 5 and 13. Most of them have cancer and many of them have been unable to get treatment inside Yemen because the cancer hospital in Sanaa, for example, doesn't have the equipment, it doesn't have the medicines, and that simply can't treat them.

CO: And we know that this blockade has been going on for a long time. The war has been going on for years. The war in Yemen is often referred to as the forgotten war. And so these are people who can't get medical treatment. There is very little medical treatment to be had in Sanaa, is that right?

SB: Yeah. What the war has done is it's decimated Yemen's medical system. Less than half of medical facilities in Yemen are fully operational. Much of the country's medical equipment is obsolete and needs to be urgently replaced. And then on top of that, what you have is almost a complete halt to commercial shipments and medicines coming through the airports. There are also restrictions on imports, including medicines coming through Hodeidah port and other ports in the country, which also means that this pushes up the prices of medicines and people just can't afford it. You've got a situation where the economy is in free-fall. People lack money to buy food -- never mind medicine. So people have to make really tough choices if they're sick, whether to feed themselves and their children or to buy medicine, which they simply can't afford.

CO: In addition to everything else, for three years, the airspace of Yemen has been closed. The air and sea blockade has been total. And it has taken 18 months to negotiate these few flights -- the one today and then one day that is coming. Why do you think it finally happened at all? Why do you think that Saudi Arabia is allowing for this?

SB: What we've seen since the end of last year was a drop in violence in the country. There has been localized ceasefires and unofficial truce between Saudi Arabia and Ansar Allah -- otherwise known as the Houthi. You also have seen diplomatic back channels being opened up between the two parties. And then the other thing is as well, the reopening of Sanaa Airport is part of the Stockholm agreement. It's there as a provision to build confidence between the conflict parties.

CO: How many people are waiting to be flown out to get desperately needed medical care? I mean, we're talking about the worst cases here of people. How many people are on the list?

SB: There will be thousands of people. The Yemeni health authorities in Sanaa have said that 32,000 people who are on a waiting list to get out of Yemen to receive medical care have died whilst waiting to get medical care.

CO: And what kinds of stories -- what are the individual stories you're hearing from people that have stayed with you?

SB: So last year we interviewed a person called Mohammed Kassam. He was a 47 year old teacher and a father of six. Norwegian Refugee Council -- we interviewed him and he told us about having liver disease. And he'd lived with liver disease for 13 years, and he had been waiting for two years to get medical treatment abroad. He was too weak to make a very long and arduous journey to the only other airport that was accessible to him, which is in the south of the country. It's a very rough terrain. There are many checkpoints. It's a very insecure journey to make. And his body was just too weak to make it. And unfortunately, he died last year. So he lost his battle.

CO: I know you're feeling a bit optimistic because there seems to be some goodwill between Saudi Arabia and the Houthi rebels. But that de-escalation -- well, now it looks like it might be reverse. We are seeing pockets of Yemen where the shooting war has always sudden started up again, in some cases more violent than in a long time. And it was just very recently. Are you concerned that it's possible that this brief window might be closing very quickly?

SB: Yes, we're extremely concerned. Yes, there has been a drop in levels of violence. But having said that, every day we're seeing people being displaced. We're seeing people's houses being hit. We're seeing schools, hospitals, being attacked. So this could really tilt the country back into a full scale war if it's not addressed now. And we could see any kind of tentative signs towards dialog being destroyed. So what we're saying to the warring parties is put down your guns and bombs, agree to a cease fire and restart long overdue peace talks.

CO: Ms. Begum we will leave it there. Thank you so much for speaking with us tonight.

SB: Thank you.

CH: Sultana Begum is the advocacy manager in Yemen for the Norwegian Refugee Council. We reached her in Sanaa.

[Music]

Jim Molan

CH: Jim Molan says he has an open mind. But some people think it might be too open. The senator from Australia's governing Liberal Party took part in a live panel discussion on ABC-TV about the country's bushfires. Many people in the audience had been directly affected by the fires. Climate scientist Michael Mann had just spoken about how human-caused climate change was leading to disastrous impacts in Australia. And then host Hamish Macdonald questioned Senator Jim Molan on his views.

SOUNDCLIP

JIM MOLAN: I certainly accept that the climate is changing. It has changed and it will change. And what it is producing is hotter and drier weather -- and a hotter and drier country.

HAMISH MACDONALD: And what's causing that?

JIM MOLAN: As to whether it is human induced climate change [Crowd opposing] Thank you. Thank you. As to whether it is human induced climate change, my mind is open. This is not the key question. The key question is what are you going to do about it?

HAMISH MACDONALD: I'm sorry, Senator, but that was my question. Is what you think is causing it? Why is your mind open?

JIM MOLAN: Because Michael might say that the science is settled. And I respect, very much respect, scientific opinion. But every day across my desk comes enough information for me to say that there are other opinions.

HAMISH MACDONALD: So what is that information? What's the actual information you have?

JIM MOLAN: I see so much. I'm a very practical man Hamish. I'm going to get out there and do things which is the one thing that...

HAMISH MACDONALD: Sorry but could you answer the question -- what's the information...

JIM MOLAN: The one thing that I agree with Michael, is that climate change and our policies in relation to climate change are designed to mitigate the risk. It's very difficult to mitigate the risk. You can go back and look for the last hundred years, how or why it started. If we can't mitigate risk, then we've got to adapt. And that's the key to what we're doing.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Senator, sorry but you haven't answered the question, which is you said you get information across your desk every day, which leads you to doubt or be open minded about the science.

JIM MOLAN: I am open minded about it.

HAMISH MACDONALD: What is that information?

JIM MOLAN: It's a range of information which goes...[Crowd laughs] It's a range of...thank you.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Sorry. [Addressing the crowd] Can we just respectfully listen to the Senator. I'll just try to get to the bottom of this. What is the evidence that you are relying on?

JIM MOLAN: I'm not relying on evidence Hamish. [Crowd laughs and cheers] I am saying.

HAMISH MACDONALD: You said it.

JIM MOLAN: But this is why my mind is open. I would love to be convinced one way or the other. But to be prudent -- what the government is doing is it's got a climate, an emissions reduction policy. And it is a good policy and it will mitigate risk to the maximum that it can. And where risk cannot be mitigated, it will adapt.

CH: Jim Molan is a senator from Australia's governing Liberal Party. He was speaking to ABC host Hamish Macfonald on the program Q&A.

[Music]

Alice Cooper

CH: Alice Cooper has been at it a long time. And by "it" I mean two things: living and rocking. And he believes it's only because he's kept those two things separate for many years that he's still doing either one. The so-called "Godfather of Shock Rock" turns 72 today, and he says that despite onstage appearances, he abandoned the wild life of a rock star a long time ago. Even his twin grandkids get that. Last year, he said, quote, "They say, you play a monster, but you are not really a monster granddad." Yes, the words every grandfather yearns to hear. But back when he was a guest on As It Happens, Mr. Cooper had not quite divorced his persona from his person. Just months after he spoke with Barbara Frum, he checked into a sanitarium to get sober. Now, as you'll hear back then, Mr. Cooper very much believed rock and roll was a young man's game and a young snake's. He was preoccupied with finding a boa constrictor to replace Angel -- or the latest in a roster of Angels who featured in his act. As he kicked off the Canadian leg of his 1977 tour, border officials had denied her entry.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: Alice is Angel like Lassie, just your latest snake -- you haven't been playing with the same snake for all these years, have you?

ALICE COOPER: No. You hit that right on the button. [Chuckles] Every time that we use a snake on the tour, we retire them. We've done like five or six tours. And so after each tour we retire the snake.

BARBARA FRUM: You're pretty rich. Do you pension them off in style?

ALICE COOPER: Well, I mean, these snakes live on chincillas. They don't eat rats. But this new snake, we're going into Canada today, and they wouldn't let my new one in -- Angel. They wouldn't let Angel in. So I've got a train to actually go in and find this new one that they have in Canada and train it.

BARBARA FRUM: I think that immigration officials wanted to have some sense of her background.

ALICE COOPER: Yeah. Isn't that weird? You know what? I've gone through 15 or 20 countries in my whole life and I've never ever had to do that.

BARBARA FRUM: Well in order to get a work permit -- they want to know where you came from, where you're going to be dancing next.

ALICE COOPER: Yeah, I know. [Chuckles] It's live history. What's the difference you know?

BARBARA FRUM: Is the sick act over? You are brushing clean teeth, I believe, on this tour?

ALICE COOPER: Yeah.

BARBARA FRUM: Is this your new image?

ALICE COOPER: I can't believe how well you're hitting everything on the button. Those things are all very psychological. And you've already picked those up. Brushing clean teeth is a great way of saying it. [Chuckles] The old act was five years ago, you know. I'm a little psychologically nervous about going to Vancouver because the last time I was there, I bounced off the stage and fell like eight feet off the stage. You know.

BARBARA FRUM: Really, what happened?

ALICE COOPER: I tripped on a wire on stage, then fell. And I had like 15 stitches and six broken ribs.

BARBARA FRUM: Serves you right for working in the dark.

ALICE COOPER: [Laughs]

BARBARA FRUM: I've got something to try on you. My young son, who's just 17, went to se Blood, Sweat and Tears the other night. He came home and he was sick. He said, my god, they're all fat old men. What age is too old? There must be a point when you don't even look right in your pants anymore.

ALICE COOPER: It's got to be -- I don't know -- I would say 35 is too old for rock and roll.

BARBARA FRUM: And you are going on what?

ALICE COOPER: I'm 29 now.

BARBARA FRUM: So you figure you got six years in you?

ALICE COOPER: Yeah. Six good years. And if I stay in shape, more than that.

BARBARA FRUM: Have you abandoned horror?

ALICE COOPER: No. Oh no. I'm still the Vincent Price of rock and roll.

BARBARA FRUM: Alice, good luck with Angel.

ALICE COOPER: Okay. Are you going to be at the show tonight?

BARBARA FRUM: Who do you think you're talking to, Margaret Trudeau?

ALICE COOPER: Yeah, you've got to show up. You are the only person I know there. [Laughs]

BARBARA FRUM: I am sure the fans know you.

ALICE COOPER: No -- you've got to come. I want to see you. That's the best interview I've done in a year. She's great. She's salty as hell. I love her. [Laughs]

BARBARA FRUM: Alice, goodbye. .

ALICE COOPER: Okay hon. Bye.

CH: Alice Cooper speaking with As It Happens, host Barbara Frum in June of 1977. Today, Mr. Cooper turns 72.

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February 4, 2020 Episode Transcript

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