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The AIH Transcript for August 20, 2019

Hosts: Helen Mann and Ramraajh Sharvendiran

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

RAMRAAJH SHARVENDIRAN: Good evening. I'm Ramraajh Sharvendiran. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

RS: Tonight...

HM: An ex-radical approach. After the UK renounces his citizenship, the former ISIS fighter known as "Jihadi Jack" is just a Canadian citizen and his father tells us his son should be allowed to come home.

RS: Flying under the radar. Patrik Matthews is an Army reservist with explosives training who's now being investigated by the military and the RCMP after the Winnipeg Free Press identifies him as a recruiter for a global neo-Nazi group.

HM: A disappearing act. An employee of the UK Consulate in Hong Kong goes missing in China and it's believed he's in detention -- and our guest says that's meant to send a not-so-secret message to protesters.

RS: Without a paddle. Canadian sprint canoeist Laurence Vincent tests positive for a banned substance -- and though she says she doesn't know why she's temporarily blown out of the water.

HM: Cross border shopping. One American professor thinks it's ridiculous that President Trump wants to buy green land when there's a nice property with a huge yard called Canada just to the north of the U.S. that he should buy instead.

RS: And spreading lies. One photograph from Toronto's Canadian National Exhibition exposes the truth -- the wholesome world of butter sculpture may be a rancid pit of deception. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that's covering this story against our butter judgment.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: How an undercover reporter exposed an alleged neo-Nazi in the Canadian military

Jack Letts: Father

Guest: John Letts

RS: The man who became known as "Jihadi Jack" says he's a changed man and he'd like to make a new life in Canada. Jack Letts was a British-Canadian dual citizen who traveled to Syria in 2014. He told the BBC that he fought for ISIS. He's currently being held in a Kurdish-run jail in northern Syria. He says if he's released he'll dedicate himself to fighting Islamic radicalization. Here is part of an interview he gave to Sky News.

SOUNDCLIP

JACK LETTS: I accidentally joined the mafia. Not a mafia but a very bad group of people thinking that they're actually Muslims and that they're good people. If I had known Islam properly and had studied it properly before I left prison I would have realized that these people are very very bad people. And if I left prison I'd like to actually be given an opportunity to -- sort of -- an awareness -- and if I could do something to help and stop people from making the same mistake I did, I'd love to do that of course. I think that'll be great.

RS: Just days ago, the UK announced Jack Letts has been stripped of his British citizenship. Canada has reacted angrily saying the UK has offloaded its responsibilities for the former dual citizen. John Letts is Jack Letts' father. We reached him in Oxford.

HM: Mr. Letts as part of your son's interview with Sky News he had a message for you. He said that he feels guilty that he's made a big mistake and that he misses you a lot. What is it like for you to hear that?

JOHN LETTS: It's obviously very emotional because this is the only way we find out that he's even alive -- through these interviews. It's difficult because they know they're also being conducted under duress and he's been tortured there. So I have to sift through it kind of emotionally and as I watch it to try to figure out what's real or not. What's real is I think his guilt. And he obviously does really miss us. We haven't spoken to him for two and a half years.

HM: How do you know he's been tortured? Because you haven't spoken to him in a couple of years so I just want to know what you know about the conditions under which he's being held.

JL: Well I know -- he did tell us in messages when he was first picked up by the Kurds that he'd been tortured by ISIS. And so when he was opposing ISIS inside before he escaped and was picked up by the Kurds. But Clive Stafford Smith -- a human rights lawyer from Reprieve and is very very well respected for his work -- is the only person who's gone in to talk to them aside from the journalists. Journalists seem to be able to get in at any opportunity and stick a camera in his face. But you know you don't have access to lawyers or anyone else. But he wasn't officially his lawyer but he went in as a human rights lawyer spent time talking to Jack although there were Kurdish guards present and Jack said all those interviews are not real, I had to say what I had to say because you get tortured if you don't and I've been tortured before so you give them the same answer.

HM: Your son says that he should be freed as well so he can help fight radicalisation. He wants to prevent -- he says -- people from doing the things that he did when he was younger. Do you believe in his change of heart?

JL: Well change of heart you see -- I don't believe he was radicalized in the terms that everyone says that. We never saw any evidence of that when he was in Oxford. He's a very dedicated Muslim -- that's not a crime. And that was something we didn't have a problem with. But I do believe he thinks ISIS and extremism is not Islamic. And he said that to us repeatedly -- he said that in social media messages, he said that to us personally...

HM: But he has said that more recently. I mean he did initially go to Syria to join ISIS.

JL: No -- he said that in messages over many years. He always said he was never a member of ISIS and he always said that. No matter what politicians say -- and the media is... you know where's the evidence for this? We have messages where he clearly condemns them. That's why he was put on trial in Mosul for condemning ISIS. He was put on trial. He said you guys are not Islamic. So I believe it when he says that he would like to stop that because he's very very -- I mean he had OCD, I don't know if it's bad now, but he's very obsessed by it. He wants the purity of the religion and he says that these people are not Islamic. I believe him. I believe that that's what he believes. And I think he should have a chance to really you know to explain what he did when he was there. And as I say I don't see any evidence except for these interviews which are claimed to be evidence that he said he joined ISIS. There is no other information about that, there's no other evidence, and we have lots of information to counter that we just never get the chance to say it. I mean people like Scheer and you know all the other people -- Pierre Poilievre -- and the others they keep saying oh yes you know we're not going to lift a finger to help him. Well maybe Scheer could lift a finger to actually call me or call our lawyers and look at the evidence. And at the end of the phone he was in the same building where I was speaking to someone on the radio interview this morning, I'd love to discuss this with Mr. Scheer or any of his colleagues.

HM: Let me stop you just for a minute to clarify because Andrew Scheer has said he won't lift a finger to return your son to Canada. He's not alone though in that. I mean it doesn't appear like the Liberal government is willing to help either. They say they can't give him consular assistance because of where he's being held and they certainly feel that the British government is abrogating its responsibility to your son. So where in Canada do you see support?

JL: I think that they are abrogating their responsibility and I think any part of the Canadian political establishment who agrees and tries to pass the problem to anyone else is also abrogating their responsibilities. I see a lot of support from people who know the truth -- who believe -- who've heard our version of the reality. And we have friends and family and organizations in Canada who said this is an injustice. If there is evidence that he's done something wrong it should come forward -- he should have a chance to prove he's innocent. I've said it 100 times, if he's done something wrong I will personally admit that I'm wrong and I will help punish him. But as far as I can tell there is no evidence and I believe these two interviews which you're all using as evidence has been based on duress and torture -- certainly our lawyers say that. And it wouldn't be acceptable in a British court.

HM: I just want to clarify because in an interview with the BBC your son described himself as saying he'd been an enemy of Britain.

JL: Yeah. Do I need to repeat it again? I've just said that Jack was held in solitary confinement in a little three by six foot cage, denied food, he's got kidney disease, he tried to hang himself. All sorts of things have happened. He doesn't speak English for six months. He doesn't see the light of day. It's horrible conditions. And he has been detained without charge. And then all of a sudden the door opens so he's been interrogated and tortured and they ask him a certain series of questions so they throw him in his cell then six months later all of a sudden the cell door opens, in walks a BBC journalist, sticks a camera in his face and says 'Are you a collaborator or a traitor?' And they ask him exactly the same question that he was asked under interrogation when he was tortured -- what do you think he's going to say? I mean do you really not think that this type of duress happens in those areas...of course they do.

HM: Can you understand though just by the virtue of the fact that he travelled to Syria with the intention of supporting the Islamic State that that might make the public skeptical about the fact that he is now saying he wants to help fight radicalization and come back?

JL: That's a very long question with a supposition in it. You said he travelled to Syria with the intention of joining ISIS to fight with ISIS. That is just not true. You're making the assumption. If you have the evidence to show me that please let me know. Like I said the interview is the only thing -- and I disagree with that. I don't think that's why you went to Syria. He didn't go to Syria to fight with ISIS just because they call him "Jihadi Jack" and the British tabloid press has invented all sorts of things. I think he went there -- I believe fundamentally for religious and humanitarian reasons. A lot of people went to Syria for religious reasons not just to fight with ISIS. I think many people believe they were setting up a religious state. And I'm speaking for Jack here because you know he really should be talking to it himself. But once you're in there you were trapped. You could not escape. They were hunting Jack down. Like I say he was put on trial in Mosul. They were going to kill him because he had condemned ISIS for being anti-Islamic. When is anyone going to start to hear this evidence? The media just keeps repeating the same old stories.

HM: Let me ask you about something else your son said because I don't want to run out of time to have a broader conversation about some of these issues. He said in this interview with Sky News that he doesn't mind losing his British citizenship because he doesn't want to be governed by Boris Johnson. What do you make of a statement like that? It would sound I think cavalier to some people given the nature of this situation for him.

JL: I think if you look at the statistics at least 60 percent of the country doesn't want to be ruled by Boris Johnson. I mean his country has got all sorts of problems with Brexit.

HM: But they are not losing their citizenship.

JL: No -- you're right. And Jack said you know I'm British, I've been British for all my life, but I'm also Canadian. He feels strongly about -- I believe, like many people do -- that you can be a dual citizen and have allegiance to both. I know Jack does. So he knows he's not going to have a normal life if he comes back here. I mean the way the press is here, the way the politicians are -- you have no rights. I mean he can't even appeal this decision even if he wanted to. But as Jack said and I kind of believe him that you know I'm British and I'm always going to be British whether or not Boris Johnson says I am or not -- or it wasn't Boris Johnson it was Sajid Javid. But you know they've done this to hundreds of people here and there's no recourse -- it's just banishment. He can't appeal. He doesn't have a lawyer. He can't speak to anyone. There's no due process. Not the rights you have when you're in Canada.

HM: But why should Canada help your son then?

JL: Well why should Canada help any Canadian? Do we have any sort of relationship? You know he's Canadian. He's been to Canada a lot. I believe he's as Canadian as I am. I mean do you have a certain amount of accumulated hours that you have to be in Canada to make you Canadian? I think there's a lot of things that make you Canadian. I think shared values of tolerance and a belief in the rule of law and due process and all these things make you a Canadian. You know I believe in all that. Some of these people who sit behind their computer screens -- the trolls -- we're getting messages like you wouldn't believe, who claim to be Canadian -- don't look like they have Canadian values to me. So I think he has a right to come back and I think Jack could contribute to Canadian society. He's seen hell. And let's just for a moment think that maybe he's innocent -- perhaps the media sometimes gets it wrong -- if that's true shouldn't Jack have the right to at least try to explain it? I'm sorry I'm very stressed by all of this. It's been going on for four and a half years. It's destroyed our lives. It's still destroying my son's life. It's still destroying our lives.

HM: Mr. Letts I have to let you go. I do appreciate you talking with us.

JL: Thanks bye.

RS: John Letts is the father of the accused ISIS recruit Jack Letts who became known as "Jihadi Jack." We reached him in Oxford, UK.

[Music]

White Supremacist Reservist

Guest: Ryan Thorpe

RS: The Canadian military is assessing whether one of its reservists can keep his job. Master Corporal Patrik Mathews is suspected of recruiting members for a global neo-Nazi group called "The Base." The 26-year-old in Winnipeg also happens to hold a leadership position as an active combat engineer and has training with explosives. The RCMP are also investigating. Today they confirmed they'd executed a search warrant and seized weapons at a property in Beausejour, a town northeast of Winnipeg. The Winnipeg Free Press reports that neighbours confirmed the search warrant happened at Patrik Mathews address and that he was arrested. Ryan Thorpe is a reporter for the Winnipeg Free Press who infiltrated neo-Nazi networks to expose Mr. Mathews' alleged links. We reached Mr. Thorpe in Winnipeg.

HM: Ryan after everything you have learned about Patrik Mathews how likely do you think it is that he will remain a member of the Canadian Armed Forces?

RYAN THORPE: Certainly after what I've learned I would be absolutely shocked if this individual wasn't removed from the Canadian Army Reserves.

HM: The RCMP says a warrant -- a search warrant -- was executed at a home in Beausejour today and that weapons were seized. What more have you learned about that?

RT: Here at the Winnipeg Free Press we have reported that the search warrant was executed at Patrik Mathews home. Although I should say the RCMP is yet to formally acknowledge this. And yeah -- a number of weapons were seized. In throughout you know reporting on this story I had learned you know the weapons that were in his possession which included you know a number of long guns and handguns as well.

HM: Now your reporting makes links between Patrik Mathews and a neo-Nazi group that's called "the base." What sparked your interest in this group initially?

RT: Maybe a month ago now we got a news up here at the Winnipeg Free Press about a white nationalist recruitment poster that had popped up in our city. So there was a couple of different ways that we could you know go about it but ultimately we decided the only real way to get a sense of what this group is up to in Winnipeg and around Canada was for me to reach out as someone posing as a white nationalist interested in joining.

HM: Just to be clear what was on the posters that was causing such alarm?

RT: So there was a number of different designs but the imagery was quite fascistic in nature. There was you know a slogan that read 'Save your race, join the base.' There was words like you know: train, fight -- things like that.

HM: All right. So you make this initial contact and then at some point you meet this reservist Patrik Mathews. How did that happen?

RT: Yeah. So this was the final hurdle I had to jump through in order to be named a member of this group. We picked a location in Winnipeg and I provided a description of myself so he would be able to pick me out of the crowd. He very quickly after we established a rapport offered to drop his online pseudonyms and told me his real first name was Patrik. And over the next hour and a half I tried to learn as many biographical details about him so that I could later use that to identify him. And also you know while we were there he told me that he was a member of the Canadian Armed Forces trained as a combat engineer which was obviously very concerning. And at the same meeting he openly mulled over the possibility of like sabotaging a rail line and things so you know this was clearly an individual with the you know a potential propensity for violence.

HM: How did the things he said fit with what you know about the neo-Nazi organization 'the base' and its objectives?

RT: Yeah it fit quite well. 'The base' is attempting to establish two to three [inaudible] in as many regions across North America and Europe as possible. You know Patrik in that first meeting you know said you know in follow up meetings he wanted to engage in paramilitary training or whatever. He didn't use those terms but that's what it was. And that's consistent with what the base is up to right now across North America. They're hosting paramilitary training events called 'Hate camps.'

HM: Now you mentioned that Patrik Mathews -- this Patrik person that you met anyway told you that he had been trained as a combat engineer and that that was alarming to you. What else can you tell us about his role in the Canadian military?

RT: So after we published that initial article I was able to confirm through a source in the Canadian Armed Forces that Patrik Mathews had been a long-time member of the Canadian Army Reserves. He was indeed trained as a combat engineer and that he had a fair amount of significant experience with explosives.

HM: Given what you knew about The Base going into this meeting with Patrik what were you thinking and feeling at the time? Were you nervous perhaps?

RT: I was yeah. I was quite nervous going into the meeting. I think I would've been a fool you know not to be worried. But after meeting him in person I would say within the first few minutes I wasn't really too worried about my personal safety. I didn't get the sense that this was someone that was about to hurt me or had any idea that I wasn't who I said it was. I don't want to be cavalier about the risks involved with this. There was a number of safety precautions I implemented in the lead up to the publication. Safety precautions that I'm still following. But you know I'm also not walking around you know fearful for my life at all moments. And ultimately I don't think this would have come to light had we not done what we did. One option at the beginning of all this would have been to just write a story saying fliers are popping up around the city, here is you know an extremist expert. But then we wouldn't have got this information. The only way we were able to confirm that the individual behind this is a member of the Canadian Armed Forces is because we kind of took this undercover approach.

HM: The Media Relations Office at the Department of National Defense said today -- and I'm quoting -- "hateful conduct, be it through words or actions, is completely incompatible with Canadian Armed Forces values and culture." Do you believe the military has a problem on its hands when it comes to harboring members of hate groups?

RT: It certainly does. The research is very clear on this. I feel like I should preface these comments by saying obviously this stuff doesn't reflect on the vast vast majority of the members of the Canadian Armed Forces. Having said that the military produced a report in November 2018 that said there had been 53 individuals members of the armed forces that had either been a member of a hate group or had undergone a process of radicalization. And I think the thing to note with that is you know those are only the ones that we know about. These are the individuals who slipped up in some way and got themselves identified. As we've just seen here in Winnipeg there are folks flying under the radar. So the reality is we don't even know the scope of this problem.

HM: Well you've certainly cracked open at least part of it for us through your reporting. Thank you very much for telling us about it Ryan.

RT: Thanks so much for having me.

RS: Ryan Thorpe is a reporter for the Winnipeg Free Press. We reached him in Winnipeg. And you can find more on the story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Butter Sculpture

Guest: Rebecca Hollett

RS: You thought you knew butter sculptures. Well you thought wrong. Every year in Toronto the Canadian National Exhibition -- or the Ex -- hosts its famed butter sculptures. They're showcased inside a glass refrigerator where sculptures in toques and jackets carved blocks of butter into extraordinary things. But a photograph posted on Twitter this week seemed to shatter that illusion and Torontonians are outraged. The photo shows a sculptor slapping butter on top of a giant dinosaur model. The visitor to the Ex who captured the image tweeted "Today I learned the butter sculptures at the Ex are just pieces of plastic covered in butter." Rebecca Hollett wants to set the record straight. She's the butter sculptor featured in this photograph. We reached her in Toronto.

HM: Rebecca Hollett we've described this photo for our listeners but can you tell us what's actually going on in it from your perspective?

REBECCA HOLLETT: Oh. This photograph is of me sculpting in the butter fridge. I'm almost done for the day sculpting and working on the piece. And it's actually funny because I'm covering my armature which is the skeleton of my work to hold it up with butter. And it's actually a photo right before disaster happens where the whole sculpture actually comes falling down.

HM: Oh no. The person who posted the photo on Twitter is suggesting that butter sculptures are not solid butter but pieces of plastic covered in butter. I guess that's because of the form that you were using.

RH: I guess so. It isn't plastic. It's actually just some foam from Home Depot to be honest. And I actually ended up building the foam part for the dinosaur as an armature to go and keep it up. And yeah I know it's funny because a lot of people are going crazy over it and saying 'oh my gosh! It's not solid butter.' But that's kind of what almost every butter sculpture does. Almost every piece has something in it.

HM: I guess we think maybe the way people carve you know hard pieces of marble or carve ice that it's like a solid block that you kind of just chip away at. Does it ever work like that?

RH: Not really. A lot of sculptures -- you know we're going really dynamic with our sculptures now. We're going bigger and we're getting much more larger with our scale and a lot of the pieces have a lot of hanging, overhangs, you know large arms, or very tall sculptures. And we need something to support that. Ice holds itself up. But unfortunately butter you know if you've ever smeared butter on your toast you know what it's like. It has no real form to it. So a lot of sculptures unless they're very small are usually filled with something in it.

HM: And if they didn't have this something -- styrofoam or plastic or whatever -- they would fall apart?

RH: Absolutely. It's already happened a couple of times in the fridge. I've actually sculpted one sculpture before I started on the Raptor. We were asked by CNE and Fan Expo to do a piece and we did the Infinity Gauntlet. And it's almost all solid butter with the exception of the thumb because the thumb just kept falling off. We ended up actually putting a couple chopsticks in it to go and hold it because we were working against gravity and gravity just wants to pull the butter down.

HM: And clearly it does sometimes cause you said the thing did collapse on you.

RH: Yeah it collapsed on me, the person working next to me. Her sculpture collapsed even though it had wood dowels in it. It's got plumbing pieces in it. It fell down. You don't actually realize how big these things are until you come and see it in real life.

HM: Yeah. How many pounds of butter are we talking about say for this Raptor?

RH: It is 300 pounds. And gravity just really wants to pull it down so I used foam.

HM: Well it's funny -- you mentioned how this seems to have really blown away many people in Toronto that this is not what they suspected it was having this form inside of it. Some of the tweets 'That's honestly heartbreaking. I blame capitalism.' 'There goes my last remaining reason to visit the Ex.' 'A travesty and a colossal waste of butter.'

RH: Oh no.

HM: People are pretty outraged.

RH: Yeah. It really surprised me because it was funny the sculpture next to me it's an anvil with the roadrunner on top of it. It had a pipe sticking out of it for a good two days. Maybe the reason people noticed mine more was because it's purple so it sticks out more but it definitely hasn't been the first year that I have got questions about you know 'oh my gosh that's cheating' or you know 'why are you doing that?' And then as soon as we explain it a lot of people are like 'Oh right. Butter! It's mushy. It doesn't have a form.' You know it's not rigid like you said with ice or marble.

HM: It sounds like this is a pretty frustrating material to work with.

RH: Oh gosh it is so mushy. Especially we use warm butter sometimes to go and build on our armature and it just plops down. You know it's very difficult to work with when it's hard. It's so hard that sometimes we break our tools trying to carve into it. So it's not the easiest medium. Like we all love working in butter otherwise we wouldn't be here and we love the material, it's so unusual you know. It's definitely a harder material to work with but we really love it.

HM: What do you want to say to those people who feel maybe a little crushed by the reality of the fact that you're not dealing with solid butter here?

RH: I think people just need to look more closely at the other sculptures and realize that it's been this way as long as I've sculpted or the other sculptors have sculpted. It's always been there and maybe people just didn't notice it before or someone didn't point it out before. But it's still a lot of butter including my sculpture -- it's only 10 percent armature. It's like 90 percent butter. So it really is still a butter sculpture. We're just using the armatures just to go and help us out and you know help us along and get it done. But for the most part it is butter. Don't worry. And yes it is butter it's not margarine I swear.

HM: Oh I would think that would be even slippery and harder to mold.

RH: Oh yes.

HM: Rebecca I really appreciate you sharing the secrets of your craft with us. Thank you so much.

RH: No problem.

RS: Rebecca Hollett is a butter sculpture at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto. We reached her there. And to see that infamous photograph of her butter sculpture go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Buy Canada

Buy Canada

Guest: Daniel Drezner

RS: It began days ago, seemingly as an absurd rumor, but yesterday President Donald Trump confirmed it was true. He genuinely believes or wants us to believe he believes that the United States should buy Greenland. He tweeted a photo of an enormous Trump Tower rising above a small Greenlandic village adding the caption "I won't do this to Greenland." Politicians in Greenland and Denmark have been cool to the proposal to put it lightly. And Daniel Drezner agrees that America buying Greenland is a ridiculous idea. He says America should consider buying Canada instead. Daniel Drezner is a politics professor at Tufts University in Newton, Massachusetts.

HM: Daniel Drezner why should the United States buy Canada instead of Greenland?

DANIEL DREZNER: Because Canada is so much better than Greenland. I mean it's not close, right. The Trump administration or Trump's defenders in this relatively absurd real estate venture have argued that Greenland is certainly desirable because it's strategic with respect to the Arctic and there are lots of natural resources in Greenland that could potentially be exploited. All of these things are so much more true of Canada than Greenland.

HM: So it's not just proximity?

DD: No -- it's not just proximity although that obviously doesn't hurt. Certainly Canada has the advantage of being much closer than Greenland and therefore would be obviously much easier to incorporate.

HM: Just how much would you be willing to cough up for Canada?

DD: I'm glad you asked that because I am prepared. And let me be very clear I have actually no negotiating authority under the Trump administration but if you seen the way the Trump administration negotiates with any other country that doesn't stop other people so I'm just going to go ahead here. I am prepared to offer 20 trillion dollars split two ways. So 10 trillion would go to the Queen of Canada who I believe also happens to be the Queen of England. And let's face it, that country could use it given the Brexit. And then the remaining 10 trillion dollars would be split evenly among all the residences of formerly known as Canada.

HM: We'd all get a share?

DD: Exactly.

HM: You're bribing us to accept obviously.

DD: Yes yes. And we would also be prepared to exchange on a one-to-one ratio the loonie for the dollar which is yet another benefit or windfall for you know citizens formerly of Canada and in return all we ask is that all the Canadian provinces would be absorbed as independent states in the United States of America and that the Toronto Raptors visit the Trump White House.

HM: I'm not sure if that will happen. Are we going to get Kawhi Leonard back?

DD: We would be considering -- you know I can't necessarily speak on behalf of Kawhi Leonard but I certainly think that is a reasonable negotiating position for you to take and I'm sure we can work something out on that front.

HM: Okay so you've laid your cards on the table for what is in this for Canada. What about in the US? I mean President Trump does seem to be the only one who's really keen on taking over Greenland. So do you think that this pitch to buy Canada would gain some broader support in Washington?

DD: I think this would be one of those rare ventures that would actually generate bipartisan support in the United States. For Democrats the logic of trying to acquire Canada and particularly granting statehood to all the Canadian provinces and territories is a no brainer. As I'm sure you're aware you could argue that the centre of gravity in Canadian politics is somewhat to the left of American politics. So imagine suddenly -- correct me, there are 13 provinces and territories, correct?

HM: Yes. 10 provinces and 3 territories.

DD: Exactly. So you know if you're adding 13 states you're going to be adding a lot more Democrat members of Congress and Senators than you would be Republicans. And so therefore that would sort of permanently shift the sort of median position within Congress somewhat to the left.

HM: Aren't you also adding as a bonus Puerto Rico?

DD: Yes. Well there's been agitation within the United States for Puerto Rico and for DC to also be granted statehood. If we're going to grant statehood to 13 Canadian provinces and territories we might as well throw those two in as well. And that also changes it to a relatively more elegant number of let's say 65.

HM: Now you do acknowledge that there are drawbacks to your plan. What are they?

DD: Well okay first of all as an American I'm not thrilled with the idea of that much more hockey coverage. I like hockey but for the love of God I mean I have my limits. And you know obviously Hockey would become a national sport of the new and larger United States of North America. So I would have to deal with a little more hockey coverage than I would care to discuss. It would also in some ways ruin the cachet of the 1980 Olympic -- Lake Placid Olympic hockey victory -- since you know Canada is a hockey powerhouse and you know a combined larger United States would also be an Olympics powerhouse not just during the summer Olympic games but now with the admission of Canada in the winter Olympics as well. And so the idea that we somehow beat the Soviet seems less miraculous.

HM: You know not a lot of Greenlanders appear to have been keen on the idea of being purchased by the United States. So besides this 10 trillion dollar bribe how would you get Canadians on board with the idea?

DD: Okay now I think you all need to be honest with yourselves. Aren't you a little bit tired of talking about what it's like being a middle power? I mean if you actually accept this deal you get to be the largest country in the world -- the largest most powerful country in the world. I think it's time for Canadians to accept that inner American, that really immature voice inside themselves that wants to be the world's superpower. And indeed you know a Canadian merger with the United States would without question augment all of America's capabilities. So no longer would you be talking about you know just the virtues of peacekeeping or soft power or anything like that. You would actually get to have input -- more serious input than you have now into the most powerful countries in the world foreign policy.

HM: Given the polling data that we kind of look at these days and some of the complaints we are seeing south of our border, do you think there might be some appetite for the reverse of your suggestion? Maybe roll back the revolutionary stuff? And we take over and you all become Canadian.

DD: Well what would you be willing to give us?

HM: Hockey. Clean ice. Good water.

DD: If you potentially threw in your strategic maple syrup reserve maybe we could have a serious conversation.

HM: Parliamentary democracy. [Laughter] We're coming up with a big list here. We've got lots -- no appetite for that though?

DD: No no -- that American exceptionalism is probably going to pose a problem with that.

HM: Well we floated the idea now maybe we'll hear from some of our listeners whether they're open to taking their portion of that 10 trillion dollars and you know I guess as you say the Queen might be willing to entertain the money too.

DD: Exactly well she certainly will need it.

HM: All right. Dan Drezner pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much.

DD: Pleasure.

RS: Daniel Drezner is a professor at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. We reached him in Newton, Massachusetts. What do you think, Canadians? Are you sick of being a middle power? Is it all worth it to get Kawhi back? We're not great at math here at As It Happens but 10 trillion dollars divided by 37 million Canadians is somewhere around 270,000 loonies for each of us. Call the talkback line and let us know if you're ready to sell: 416-205-5687.

[Music]

Laurence Vincent Lapointe

RS: She's been a world champion 11 times. And Canadian sprint canoeist Laurence Vincent Lapointe intends to keep competing. But she's about to miss an upcoming event in Hungary. She's been suspended because her recent drug test came back positive. Ms. Lapointe who is considered a serious medal contender at next year's Olympic Games says she has no idea how the substance got in her system. She's challenging the suspension and she addressed the test results at a press conference today.

SOUNDCLIP

LAURENCE VINCENT LAPOINTE: As a person my dream to go to the Olympics started when I was seven, right. I saw someone do synchronized swimming in the Olympics and I was just like amazed. I wanted to go to the Olympics. And all my life I've been working, working hard, working everyday. And in the last few years even the last few months I've been working like a literal mad woman. Like I have not gone to school since the fall because I decided to really focus and get ready for this Olympics selection this year. And I've been working so hard and just every single day putting all my heart and all my strength into everything I do. And last week it just all fell down. My world fell apart literally. I received the news and I was just like how... How could I ever want to risk something like that? Like how could I ever want to risk you know? I've been winning for like almost 10 years now and I know I can beat all of these women with my own strength. I know I can win. I know I can just be the best and I don't need anything to boost me or something. Sorry. For me doping -- I've always seen people who do that as cheaters. Now my world just broke down because now I'm the one who's on the -- because they found something in my system and I have no idea how it got there. I mean we're working to find it but I just cannot believe it. It's been a nightmare. Like this week has been mad. I just wish I could wake up.

RS: That was Quebec canoeist Laurence Vincent Lapointe speaking today. Her lawyer was also at the press conference. He said they will be looking into how the substance got in her system including the supplements she takes and the possibility of cross contamination maybe by sharing a cup with someone.

[Music]

Detained Consular Worker

Guest: Tommy Cheung

RS: On August 8th, Simon Cheng -- an employee of the UK consulate in Hong Kong was taking the train home after a business trip in Mainland China. He texted his girlfriend that he was about to pass through customs and then he disappeared. Mr. Cheng is believed to have been detained in China. Both his family and the UK's Foreign and Commonwealth Office went public about his disappearance and apparent detention today. Tommy Cheung is a pro-democracy activist and a friend of Simon Cheng. We reached him in Hong Kong.

HM: Mr. Cheung what did you think when you first found out that your friend had gone missing?

TOMMY CHEUNG: All of his friends are worried about him because of course we have heard the other similar case before but we don't think it will happen to our friends so we are quite worrying and we don't know what the Chinese government would do next.

HM: What about his family? How are they coping with this?

TC: They feel hopeless because they don't know where Simon is in at this moment.

HM: I want to try and understand what the situation is in terms of why Simon was in Shenzhen. He lives in Hong Kong. He'd crossed the border. What was his plan for the visit when he was detained?

TC: Actually he has some meetings in Shenzhen for his own work. And it seems where he is coming back to Hong Kong by the high speed rail and then he has been detained.

HM: His family just released a statement. What kind of information are they getting? Who are they working with to try and get answers?

TC: They're working with groups of NGOs and also the consulate has also helped his family but seems they can't get the information that Simon has been administratively detained. We received the message from the Hong Kong government officials but seems they couldn't receive any kind of notice.

HM: Maybe you could explain to us what administrative detention actually means?

TC: Administrative detention is a kind of punishment conducted by the Chinese government for a maximum of 15 days off the detention and also they couldn't get communications with the outside world. But seems this case there is no reason to detain Simon.

HM: Mr. Cheng is an employee of the British consulate in Hong Kong. What have officials from the United Kingdom had to say so far about his disappearance and his detention?

TC: Actually they have said that they have been aware of this case and they will try to help his family. But actually the family feel helpless because it seems the UK government's foreign office haven't had any kind of a strong evidence to ask the Chinese government to release Simon as soon as possible because if the detention is longer then I think the complexity of this case will be more so large it.

HM: Are you suggesting the UK hasn't done enough at this point?

TC: Yeah I don't think the UK government has done enough. At least they have to issue a stronger statement to us for the earlier releasing of Simon. And also they should use all kinds of diplomatic means to help Simon because Simon is their employees. And also other citizens in UK they may have to go and go to China and if Simon's case is like this we can easily guess that the other people going to China would not be safe anymore.

HM: Earlier this month the UK Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab spoke with Carrie Lam the chief executive for Hong Kong and called for her to respect peaceful protests and to have dialogue with the protesters. Do you think that this is a backlash by China against the fact that the UK government spoke up?

TC: I don't think it is a direct reason. I just feel they want to scare the Hong Kong people from different kinds of backgrounds or different range of age or genders -- they just want to have the atmosphere of terror.

HM: But why Simon himself? Do you know think they have any reason to specifically detain him?

TC: Actually we don't have any kinds of reasons because we don't receive the notifications from the Chinese government yet. So we cannot know exactly what has happened now.

HM: You are an activist. Is this enough to give you a sense of chill? Are you concerned perhaps about continuing the demonstrations?

TC: I think Hong Kong people would not be scared by this kind of press. But of course we will still be going out to fight for our freedom because if we lose in this battle then we will easily go into a police state or we will easily lose our personal safety inside Hong Kong. Because at least from this example we can see that we cannot trust the Chinese government or the Hong Kong government anymore.

HM: Mr. Cheung thank you very much for speaking with us.

TC: Thank you.

RS: Tommy Cheung is a pro-democracy activist and friend of Simon Cheng -- an employee of the UK Consulate in Hong Kong who is believed to have been detained in China. We reached Tommy Cheung in Hong Kong.

[Music]

Bette Stephenson

RS: Just a few weeks after her 95th birthday, Bette Stephenson has died. Ms. Stephenson was a long-time cabinet minister in Ontario's Progressive Conservative party and she did not shy away from controversy. Before she was elected, she butted heads with Pierre Trudeau over his reluctance to remove abortion from Canada's Criminal Code. In office, she fought with her party's leader -- Bill Davis -- over his decision to fully fund the province's Catholic high schools. And all the while she blazed a trail. She was Ontario's first female Labour Minister, Education Minister, and Finance Minister. And before that, the first female president of the Canadian Medical Association. Back in 1976 Bette Stephenson spoke with another trailblazing female politician Judy LaMarsh on CBC Radio about making her way up through the ranks of the CMA and about being a woman in politics.

SOUNDCLIP

BETTE STEPHENSON: There were no other women doctors at that point on the board of directors of the OMA or the CMA. At the moment there are two on the board of the OMA.

JUDY LAMARSH: Well it must means that you did something right because there are more coming along behind you. After all when I was in the federal cabinet and left there's only been one since then. And a lot of people said that there never would be another.

BETTE STEPHENSON: But there are some parliamentary assistants. Oh now you know perfectly well that your example of the federal cabinet level was so good that they haven't been able to match it yet.

JUDY LAMARSH: It's going to be a mutual complementary session.

BETTE STEPHENSON: No no. There are parliamentary assistants at the federal level now who are women as you well know and this is a step up for women as well. I think that there isn't any doubt about the fact that the interest in women's activities has increased the numbers of girls and the women who are choosing to go into certain fields which were traditionally male dominated. And I think that the example of people like you has given some women the idea that they can go forward and they're trying it.

JUDY LAMARSH: Well seems to me Bette Stephenson it's much more important the kind of example you've given of late. When did you decide to share your concerns with medicine and about people to go beyond the realm strictly of medicine...

BETTE STEPHENSON: Well simply being a family physician I think in a growing community gives one a feeling of responsibility for a community. And I've always been a pretty nosy individual and those things that I felt affected the general health of patients which had to do with community or had to do with society I felt that the profession had some responsibility to attempt to modify.

RS: That was part of a 1976 conversation between Bette Stephenson and Judy LaMarsh on CBC Radio. Early today, TV-Ontario host Steve Paikin tweeted that Bette Stephenson has died. She was 95 years old.

[Music]

Thank You Radio

SOUNDCLIP

PHILLIP FORSYTH: Hi I'm Phillip Forsyth and here we go with hour two of As It Happens. Welcome to Quebec and Ontario. Welcome back Maritimes.

RS: That's former As It Happens host Phillip Forsyth introducing the program back when it first hit the airwaves on November 18th 1968. Fast forward 50 plus years and As It Happens is still going strong. And today -- on National Radio Day -- we wanted to take a moment to pause and thank you for tuning in. Kudos to Marconi and Tesla too, of course. But radio is a conversation and we're grateful to keep this dialogue going, sharing the stories, and songs that move you.

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August 20, 2019 Episode Transcript

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