Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The AIH Transcript for June 11, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Tom Allen

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

TOM ALLEN: Good evening. I'm Tom Allen. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

TA: Tonight...

CO: Unnatural disaster. After the 2010 earthquake in Haiti, there were allegations that Oxfam workers sexually exploited the people they were there to help -- a new report says Oxfam's response fell far short.

TA: Drawing to a close. The New York Times announces it will no longer print editorial cartoons in its international edition -- and one Swiss cartoonist finds the erasure disturbing.

CO: Herbicide effects. A new study finds that nearly 600 plant species have gone extinct over the past 250 years -- and even more alarming how fast they're vanishing.

TA: Everyone else is inferior -- or, "sub-serviette." Celebrity interviewer Nardwuar The Human Serviette is thorough and thoroughly eccentric -- and those qualities just got him named to the BC Entertainment Walk of Fame.

CO: Putting the "vice" in "advice." David Crosby battled drugs, and lots of fellow musicians -- he says his checkered past is a real benefit in his new role as Rolling Stone's advice columnist.

TA: And...the bum's rush. In an interview the screenwriters behind "Avengers: Endgame" finally reveal why they didn't have Ant-Man defeat the villain by flying up his backside and expanding to giant size. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that gets to the bottom of why he didn't.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Nardwuar the Human Serviette gets his own star on B.C.'s Walk of Fame

Oxfam Misconduct Report

Guest: Asmita Naik

TA: Oxfam went to deliver aid to the survivors of Haiti's 2010 earthquake. But some of the aid group's employees hurt much more than they helped. Today, the UK Charity Commission released a scathing report into claims of sexual misconduct during Oxfam's mission to the country. It followed media reports last year alleging that some staff paid for sex in the devastated country. And the new report goes even further saying the charity failed to investigate claims of the sexual abuse of minors in the country. Oxfam says it accepts the findings and apologized -- saying the actions of its staff are, quote, "a violation of everything Oxfam stands for." Asmita Naik wrote a 2002 UNHCR report on sexual exploitation of children in West Africa. We reached her in London.

CO: Ms. Naik can you give us some of the more serious allegations against Oxfam that are contained in this report?

ASMITA NAIK: Well I think what struck me today was that you know in many ways a lot of what was in the report are things we've heard because they're already leaked to the press in the past year. But I think the allegation that particularly struck me -- which didn't come out before so clearly -- was that there were actually allegations involving young girls of 12 or 13 that Oxfam failed to investigate. I mean that's just abhorrent. You know that makes what we knew about this story even more serious in my eyes.

CO: Apparently there were emails dated in July and August of 2011 that were said to be from a 13-year-old girl talking about herself and another 12-year-old girl who made allegations of physical abuse among -- from Oxfam staff. What did you make of that when you saw it?

AN: Clearly I mean I believe that Oxfam's defense is that they believe it was malicious -- but an allegation like that, you can't just dismiss it or dismiss it as malicious. Oxfam is duty bound to investigate and look into it further to try and find those particular cases -- and if they couldn't find those then to you know do a broader review of what was going on in their program. Anything involving a child of that age -- you know couldn't just be dismissed in the way it was. So I think that in itself is an enormous failing by Oxfam that's been revealed by this report.

CO: But does it really matter at some point I mean of course the age is significant but that if you're in a situation where people are vulnerable, they're depending on you for aid -- as in Haiti, just eating the water that Oxfam was providing -- that you have a coercive environment don't you. Do you think Oxfam recognized this relationship?

AN: Well standards have been in place since 2002 -- and at that time I was involved in a report on West Africa which revealed extensive exploitation of refugee children in three West African countries. And that report implicated 48 agencies. Oxfam was completely you know known as an institution it was aware of those kinds of codes -- they even signed up to them. The issue was that it didn't implement them, and that's what we saw in the Haiti case.

CO: And why do you think -- what motivated Oxfam to do that?

AN: Well I think the Charity Commission investigation report touches on it -- contrary to what we would expect of them. You know we expect them to be selfless charitable organizations but they're in fact very self-interested organizations that are driven by the pursuit of their own reputation and their own funding. So when you're driven by that you know other values fall by the wayside. And that clearly comes out in this report by the Charity Commission that that's what Oxfam was driven by, and we see a very kind of cavalier and dismissive attitude to the protection of vulnerable people -- even when they're being harmed by the organization itself.

CO: But they were protective of their own people -- and Oxfam's own investigation found that four members of its staff including the country's director did pay for sex or were suspected of paying for sex, and that some of them were allowed to simply resign without facing consequences. And I wonder if you can just talk a bit about the culture at Oxfam that would have led to a decision that allows senior staff members to only get a slap on the wrist?

AN: Yeah -- you know you see this in other organizations as well. And as I said it's a complete topsy-turvy prioritisation of you know what's important -- it is just not what you'd expect from organizations that claim to hold high moral and ethical values. And then the reality is that they're prioritizing status, money, reputation, everything that you think shouldn't be prioritized -- which is [inaudible] you know why they treated senior staff more leniently than junior staff and local staff.

CO: When the story broke last year we interviewed the executive director of Oxfam International -- Winnie Byanyima -- about the allegations. And I want to just play one section of that interview and get you to respond. Here she is.

SOUNDCLIP

WINNIE BYANYIMA: We have since improved our system of investigation, and we are not going to tolerate sexual misconduct in the future. We will not allow someone whom we have known to be a perpetrator to work for us again. We also have to work on the culture so that kind of behaviour is never tolerated.

CO: Okay that's Winnie Byanyima saying that would happen in Haiti could not happen again at Oxfam. Do you think that's true?

AN: Well these are fine words and we hear them a lot, but we have to judge organizations and people by practice. Certainly in the past few days there have been more stories in the UK press about further allegations about Oxfam -- so, no, it doesn't really seem as if there has been a seismic change in culture at all.

CO: And what do you think the fate of Oxfam will be? Surely this is affecting its donations -- the very thing it was trying to protect before, the funding and the funding sources. What effect do you think it's going to have?

AN: Well the irony is I'm not sure it has had that much damaging effects. I was reading a report earlier that showed that last year even though the public donations went down, Oxfam's overall income went up. Big funders -- particularly big institutional funders like governments -- still give them money. I know today it sounds like big news but I'm sure Oxfam will survive. My only hope is that it will change, not only that it will survive.

CO: Ms. Naik we'll leave it there, and I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AN: Thank you so much.

TA: We reached Asmita Naik in London, UK.

[Music]

Plant Extinction

Guest: Aelys Humphreys

TA: According to a new study, 571 plant species have gone extinct in the past 250 years. To a layperson, that sounds like a lot. It is. But it's not just the sheer number that is alarming to researchers, it's the rate at which plants are disappearing. Aelys Humphreys was one of the researchers on the study. She's a plant evolutionary biologist at Stockholm University in Sweden. That's where we reached her.

CO: Professor Humphreys you say that nearly 600 plants going extinct seems like an awfully high number but maybe you can put that into context for us.

AELYS HUMPHREYS: Yes I think that's really important. So we've done a few different comparisons to try and put it into context. But one thing is that we've compared it to our previous knowledge of plant extinctions -- and it turns out that this number is four times higher than what we knew before. And the other thing we've looked at is some groups of animals. We hear a lot about extinctions in mammals and birds -- and this number for seed plants that we have studied is more than twice the number that is known for mammals and birds and amphibians together.

CO: Does it seem then that the species are going extinct -- plant species -- going extinct at a higher or faster rate now than they used to?

AH: Yes. So we know that plant species are going extinct more quickly than we would expect if it was just natural extinction -- so if it wasn't any human activities involved.

CO: How fast is it? How many times faster is this extinction rate?

AH: It's up to 500 times faster than normal level of extinction -- which is a lot of course. And again that might be hard to place into context. I mean it is undoubtedly a lot faster than we would have expected.

CO: I guess what's fascinating and troubling about your study is that it's not just that you're doing an assumption or an estimation given the conditions and changes -- you actually know the names of the plants that have disappeared? You actually can document them?

AH: Yes. So the data have been put together over three decades actually by one of the authors of the study Rafael Govaerts who is based at the Royal Botanic Gardens in Kew in England. And he does a lot of databases work at Kew Gardens. And one thing he's been doing alongside that is to keep notes of every single plant that's been published as extinct. And then he's also gone into the field to look for a lot of these plants and he talks to experts in particular groups of plants. So he's gone to great lengths to try and verify these extinction declarations.

CO: It's interesting. I guess people are becoming quite overwhelmed -- and you know what happens then, there is a kind of people just become numb to it. But because we've learned in May -- the United Nations report -- that one million animal and plant species were threatened with extinction. But when you have a name for a plant, when you can see what it might have looked like, when it's turned up -- the name of it -- in a poem or story from 250 years ago you start to realize perhaps more clearly what's been lost here, don't you?

AH: I think so. I think it makes it much less abstract. I think people can relate to it more personally. We've got examples like sandalwood. There are many sandalwoods, but a specific sandalwood that occurred on a single island outside of Chile only that disappeared early. People were using its wood as early as the 17th century -- already a hundred years ago, I think it was, that the last tree was cut down. But simply hearing a little story like that for me is enough to feel that somewhere it's got to stop. Who goes out and cuts down the last tree? The last tree standing of the species. And the whole thing about nature changing and being destroyed and disappearing becomes very abstract. So having individual stories can help.

CO: Also if you're showing children plants and you can imagine that this plant this could be the last of this -- this plant would in some point in the future disappear from the face of the earth, that you connect with these plants emotionally I guess.

AH: Yes I think so. And also think about all the interactions with other organisms the plants have: insects for example. Insects rely on plants for food, for habitats, for their local environment where they lay their eggs -- where they birth their young etc. And you can teach both adults and children about this. So it's very clear that the loss of a single plant species can have quite severe effects in terms of all of the interactions with other organisms it has -- it can have quite severe environmental effects. But the more we start understanding about species that have gone extinct already the more we can start possibly predicting the effect -- and that might also help. People are becoming aware about what is happening and what can happen.

CO: But what can they do about it?

AH: Well one thing is -- it's obviously the big question -- but live more consciously in the way of thinking about how we're using our resources, our natural resources, and do that in a more conscious way. Say for example not by products or eat food that encourages new areas of deforestation. That's one thing. But the other thing is to increase knowledge as well. So to make people interested in botany, to make sure that there is funding --resources -- available for people to pursue that botanical interests as careers, and to get people all around the world not just on a professional level but on a private level as well to go out and learn to identify their local plants. And only then can we start to identify when they are starting to disappear as well.

CO: Professor Humphreys we will leave it there. You've given us a lot to think about. Thank you.

AH: Thank you very much.

TA: Aelys Humphreys is a plant evolutionary biologist at Stockholm University in Sweden. That's where we reached her.

Nardwuar

Guest: Nardwuar

SOUNDCLIP

[Nardwuar Theme]

TA: The theme song to an interview by Nardwuar The Human Serviette. And a signal that something unpredictable is about to happen. Over more than 30 years, the Canadian interviewer extraordinaire has sat down with everyone from Snoop Dogg to Iggy Pop. His unique style -- including his signature Scottish tam, and his bizarre, meticulously researched questions -- have made him a national treasure. Here's what happened when he asked former Prime Minister Jean Chretien if he would have taken part in protests as a student, at an APEC Conference in November of 1997.

SOUNDCLIP

JEAN CHRETIEN: I've been protested a few times in my lifetime. I did that myself too when I was a student.

NARDWUAR: Do you think though that mace equals freedom? Some of the protesters were maced.

JEAN CHRETIEN: What did you say?

NARDWUAR: Mace, pepper spray -- some other...

JEAN CHRETIEN: But I don't know -- this technique did not exist in those days. [Laughter] For me pepper, I put it on my plate.

TA: That was Nardwuar The Human Serviette speaking with Jean Chretien in 1997. This week Nardwuar became an honoree in the 2019 B.C. Entertainment Hall of Fame. We reached Nardwuar -- also known as John Ruskin in Vancouver.

CO: Nardwuar a big congratulations.

NARDWUAR: Thank you so much Carol Off. As It Happens!

CO: Okay so does this mean that your star is going to be embedded in a sidewalk and people are going to walk all over you now?

NARDWUAR: On Granville Street in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada -- my hometown!

CO: Okay which brings me to a very important question for those people in the country who don't know you or maybe people even who do. What does Nardwuar The Human Serviette name -- where does that come from?

NARDWUAR: Well Nardwuar is like a dumb, stupid name like Sting or Sinbad. Human is after The Cramps song "Human Fly." And serviette -- in the U.S. they don't have serviettes -- they have napkins. Nardwuar The Human Serviette.

CO: That's the name, and then there's the image, right? People actually dress up for Halloween like you, right?

NARDWUAR: Again I'm so honored that people care. I guess people kind of think if Nardwuar can do it so can I. And I've been doing a radio show since 1987 on CiTR in Vancouver, Canada --inspiring people, "Hey I can do it, you can." So people kind of dress up like me. Anybody can do it. Kind of like you Carol, getting involved in the London Gazette.

CO: [Chuckles] Nice try but it's not about me -- this interview.

NARDWUAR: But you stumbled upon London Gazette -- and I stumbled upon CiTR Radio and the rest is history, and I'm still involved.

CO: But the reason why I can't dress up as you is because I have no idea where you get a Tam O'Shanter in order to wear that on my head. Do you ever take that off?

NARDWUAR: I got that actually on a trip my mom made to Scotland, and she brought it back for me. And the reason I wear a Tam O'Shanter is Canadian heavy metal legend Sebastian Bach from Skid Row stole my tuque. And because he stole my tuque, my skullcap, I wear that Tam O'Shanter. And actually I dedicated me getting a walk on the Hall of Fame to my mom.

CO: That's great. Okay now listen you have got to tell us what your secret is for getting people to agree to interviews because you have -- I mean I don't think anybody has interviewed everyone from Pierre Elliot Trudeau to Snoop Dogg. How do you do it?

NARDWUAR: A lot of waiting by the stage door for the person to come out and running up to them. In fact my last interview with Snoop Doggy Dogg -- it only happened because the club owner in Vancouver allowed me into the club and Snoop walked up and confronted me, and he said I'll do an interview with you -- only with you.

CO: Okay. But I bet you they don't know that you haven't just come to ask them some fan questions -- you actually do some pretty heavy duty research.

NARDWUAR: Well it's funny that anybody can spend time doing research but they can't be bothered to -- like who else except me Nardwuar The Human Serviette would spend a week researching Snoop Doggy Dogg.

CO: It's also asking fearless questions because when you got Jean Chretien to mock, make fun of pepper spraying protesters at the APEC conference -- when you said does mace equal freedom Mr. Chretien? And he says pepper is something I put on my plate. I mean that is one of the most surprising and shocking things that I've heard get out of Jean Chretien -- so you know how to stick the pins in, don't you?

NARDWUAR: I was really scared when I asked that question. In fact I went in disguise -- I looked like an actual cub reporter and I thought the media would actually complain about me and trying to get me kicked out of future events. In fact they ran with my story but of course they didn't Nardwuar The Human Serviette -- they said a reporter asked. And I didn't mind because it focused the issue on what was happening -- the pepper spraying at APEC. But I was totally scared. In fact even talking to you now, Carol, I'm scared. I'm always scared and the minute I'm not scared is a minute I should quit.

CO: I just want to play you another clip. This is from an interview you did with Pharrell Williams in 2008. And he once said that your research was second to none.

SOUNDCLIP

NARDWUAR: That's where everything was laid down -- in Virginia. And I wanted to ask you particularly Pharrell well about this joint right here. Is this where it all started -- right here -- with the Rump Shaker?

PHARRELL WILLIAMS: Yeah. This is one of the most impressive interviews I've ever experienced in my life. Seriously.

NARDWUAR: Oh well thank you so much. It's great to be able to talk to you guys.

PHARRELL WILLIAMS: This is...this is insane man.

CO: [Laughs] What did you give to Pharrell Williams that shocked him so much?

NARDWUAR: One of the first recordings called "Rump Shaker" where he was a co-writer. He was kind of saying, "who would bring this recording -- this record -- all the way to a hotel room that I co-wrote in my very early stages of my career?" So that's what he was freaked out by.

CO: How are you doing physically? Because I know four years ago people were very concerned -- we were very concerned -- because you were in the hospital with a stroke.

NARDWUAR: Thank you very much for the support. I guess music cures all. It happened once before where I had actually a brain aneurysm in '99. So when it happened again in 2015 I thought, "Here we go again." But the only difference was, in '99 I kind of recoiled into a corner. But in 2015 I was like "music cures, so like get out there and do it."

CO: You have a lot of support and there are dozens of people who were part of the nomination for you to become part of the B.C. Walk of Fame. So how did they keep that a secret from you? How did they manage to do that?

NARDWUAR: I have no idea. I have trouble telling people that I'm legit -- like the artists are cool, but their managers are sometimes a bit reluctant to like talk to a guy called Nardwuar The Human Serviette. But somehow these 30 people were able to sway the B.C. Entertainment Hall of Fame. In fact it's sort of like an As It Happens story. Like Imogen approached me when I talked to Justin Trudeau in 2015 and was going to have me on As It Happens -- but it didn't happen. But she kept working and here I am now talking to Carol Off.

CO: Listen we to have to end this -- but we want to play another clip, and this is Snoop Doggy Dogg who did a lot of interviews with you. And we have a clip from one of them, and here it is.

SOUNDCLIP

SNOOP DOGGY DOGG: A double shout out to my nephew from Vancouver -- you know what I'm saying? The Canuck, Mr. Nard-Stay Hard-Waur.

NARDWUAR: Well thanks so much Snoop. Keep on rockin' in the free world, and [singing] doot doota loot do...

SNOOP DOGGY DOGG: Doo doot.

NARDWUAR: We are coming to the end Carol, of As It Happens. My debut on As It Happens! And it makes me think well Carol Off thanks for speaking to me -- Nardwuar The Human Serviette. Keep on rockin' in the free world, and Carol, [singing] doot doota loot doo...

CO: Doo doot.

TA: That was Nardwuar The Human Serviette. We reached him in Vancouver. And we've got more of Nardwuar's interviews on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Avengers

TA: To understand your enemy you have to get inside their head. To defeat your enemy, however, you have to get inside their lower intestinal tract and expand exponentially. Of course that stratagem only applies if you're a specific Marvel character whose power is shrinking and growing at will, battling an extremely powerful enemy. For example, if you're the lovable criminal-turned-superhero "Ant-Man" and the enemy is the merciless giant-chinned super-villain "Thanos." Before I go on, I should mention that this story contains spoilers about the movie Avengers: Endgame -- and it also may contain mild spoilers of your dinner. Now, Endgame has made zillions of dollars -- and it's also critically acclaimed: it has a 94 percent "Fresh" rating on Rotten Tomatoes. But a small percentage of people didn't like it. And apparently a small percentage of that small percentage were disappointed Ant-Man didn't defeat Thanos in the most obvious way possible: by flying up his butt and expanding. Recently screenwriters Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely were asked just that by host Chris Hewitt on the Empire Podcast.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS HEWITT: So I'm going to start with the obvious question -- the question on everybody's lips: did you at any point consider actually having Ant-Man go up Thanos' butt and explode?

VOICE 1: You have a theory that...

VOICE 2: Yeah I do have a theory that Thanos could take a punch from the Hulk. We've seen that. And stands to reason his whole body is at least as strong as that. And that if Ant-Man expanded he would be simply crushed against the immovable walls of his mighty [laughter] rectum. Exactly.

CHRIS HEWITT: It's like an irresistible object meeting an unmoveable force.

VOICE 2: Exactly. It turns out he's a resistible object. [Laughter] Or something like that.

TA: Well that settles that. Please, please let that settle that. Although I have to admit, it would have given an interesting double meaning to Endgame.

[Music]

Part 2: David Crosby promises not to 'butter your toast' in new Rolling Stone advice column

New York Times International Editorial Cartoon

Guest: Patrick Chappatte

TA: The New York Times will no longer be publishing editorial cartoons in its international edition. The Times insists that it has been considering the move for over a year. But earlier this year, the paper was forced to apologize for publishing a cartoon by a Portuguese artist that was widely interpreted as anti-Semitic. The decision means an end to two decades of work for Patrick Chappatte -- who began there when the paper was still known as the International Herald Tribune. But that's not all it means. We reached Patrick Chappatte in Geneva.

CO: Mr. Chappatte you have said that you are putting down your pen but doing so with a sigh. What do you mean by that?

PATRICK CHAPPATTE: Well I mean the news that the New York Times will be terminating all political cartoons which means for me something like 20 years of work and because it is hard not to see that this is happening just a month after a huge controversy was triggered by your cartoon from syndication that should not have been published I think in the New York Times, I'm kind of sad at the notion that actually there is nothing I could do about what happened a month ago.

CO: I want to ask you about that. Because there are accusations of anti-Semitism because of this cartoon, it was from syndication -- a Portuguese caricaturist had done it. Can you tell us what was portrayed in that cartoon?

PC: The metaphor that the Portuguese cartoonist used was to have (Benjamin) Netanyahu as a dog -- a guide dog -- and (Donald) Trump as a blind man. And the depiction the way it was drawn was felt by many as anti-Semitic. And I think it was problematic in many ways -- it's hard to describe a cartoon but I think it was just a poor cartoon. And I did not understand why it ran in the New York Times.

CO: The image was of the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as a guide dog. And on the other end of the leash is Donald Trump who is blind. Is that how it work?

PC: Exactly. And you can understand the political message, but obviously that message didn't go across very well. It was not received as a political message -- it was seen by many as an insult or an anti-Semitic cartoon. So when your message doesn't go across it means you have not succeeded as a cartoonist.

CO: And you don't defend this cartoon in any way?

PC: No -- what I'm saying I will always defend the right of the cartoonist to do this cartoon. I don't think -- because he's a well-known Portuguese cartoonist, he's not some anti-Semitic guy in his dark corner. I think his intent was not anti-Semitic. I think his intent was to make a political point. But as I just said something didn't work. He maybe didn't find the right image or the way he drew his cartoon was not right. But he might not have been aware of all those things.

CO: How did it end up being published do you think?

PC: The New York Times has explained that it was picked up by a single editor -- a mid-level editor -- without supervision in Hong Kong. And that's maybe the production cycle of the international edition of The New York Times -- the print edition. For all the years I've been working with the New York Times the way I worked was in collaboration with the team -- I would send four to six sketches to the newsroom and I would get feedback from editors, and I've always thought that we need a different set of eyes to make the right choices. I mean you know you have a big responsibility as a cartoonist because you have a big exposure. And I've always thought that we are more clever when we are many. And that's how we have been working with the in-house cartoons of the New York Times.

CO: The New York Times apologized for the cartoon, it doesn't in any way defend it. So why do you think that's not enough? Why do you think they have gone the next step and actually canceled all editorial cartoons in the New York Times?

PC: I think at the time -- and we're talking about a month ago -- they did take some of the right steps and they drew the line, and they denounced anti-Semitism, which is important. But what I felt was missing was a dialogue -- a discussion -- an explanation. After all, the job of the media is to not only inform but analyze and put things into perspective. And I felt we should have had a discussion about that cartoon, what it meant, what is cartooning. I don't feel that that really happened. And maybe they took the easiest step which is -- it's messy to work with cartoonist of course, it's a messy thing. Freedom is messy. You know the language of cartooning is a complex one. Cartoons are a very powerful tool. They short circuit your brain and they go straight through guts so they are strong and powerful. But again we have had political cartoons with the New York Times for the last 20 years, and the Herald Tribune before that, and we never had any controversy like the one that happened a month ago. So it is possible to work with cartoonists. But maybe for them it was simply simpler to just get rid of the messenger because the message is complicated.

CO: You have said that you believe it's not just about cartoons but about journalism and opinions in general. What is it that you fear that this really represents?

PC: Well I also said that political cartoons were born with democracy and they are challenged when freedom is. And I think, why is it always about cartoons? There's something really symbolic. What are they revealing in that situation? I think very often the outrage and the attacks are not just targeting the cartoonists. I think that more than often the real target behind the cartoon is the media, it's opinion, it's also the themes that are being discussed. I think that the media need to find a way now to deal with those storms that gather on social media that rise and fall. You put newsrooms in a blow and the media seem not to be equipped to respond to these things.

CO: You've called the moralistic mobs gathering on social media that rise like a storm and fall upon newsrooms in an overwhelming blow.

PC: Exactly. And we've seen that on many occasions. We've seen -- again, Twitter is not a place for debate. I don't know if you've tried debating on Twitter [laughs] it just doesn't work. It's a place for anger and fury. And we need to grow a backbone and we need to push back and deal with that.

CO: Mr. Chappatte we will leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

PC: Thank you very much.

TA: Patrick Chappatte has been the in-house editorial cartoonist for the international edition of The New York Times for the past 20 years. We reached him in Geneva.

[Music]

David Crosby

Guest: David Crosby

TA: When people ask David Crosby about his new gig as an advice columnist for Rolling Stone magazine, he usually giggles. Yes, I mean Rock and Roll Hall of Famer, David Crosby. So maybe you're giggling now too. Because he's not the most obvious choice for an agony aunt. He's famously fallen out with friends. He was a drug addict. He served time in a Texas prison. But hard-earned life experience can sometimes translate into wisdom. And a few days ago, Mr. Crosby proved that by dispensing his first advice. Here's a sample from a video the magazine posted online.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID CROSBY: Croz, my brother was just sentenced to five years in prison on a drunk charge. Any tips for how he can best survive in there? I worry he's not made for life on the inside. Nobody is made for life on the inside. Trust me, I've been there. Tell him to mind his own business. A lot of people in there are looking to pick a fight because they really have nothing else to do.

TA: That's David Crosby during his first "Ask Croz" advice session for Rolling Stone magazine. We reached the 77-year-old Mr. Crosby on tour in New London, Connecticut.

CO: David at the beginning of your first advice session you warned people they might not like the advice that you give them. Why is that?

DAVID CROSBY: Well because I'm famously kind of a blunt person. I don't generally butter your toast so to speak. I actually tell you what I think. And sometimes that's good. And sometimes it's funny. And sometimes it may be just distressing to be confronted with my truth or my opinion. I try to keep it light. I try not to like get after people unless it's the president. But I try to actually say what I think.

CO: We played some tape from the video and you were giving advice to a man whose brother was headed to prison and you told him what to expect. And you had some good advice for him.

DAVID CROSBY: I said nobody was, actually. [Laughs] And then what I told him was you know that there's a lot of people in there that are wrapped too tight -- the kind of guy that walks up and says, "What are you looking at?!" Those guys. And so you avoid them. You avoid all kind of confrontation if you possibly can because it's a pretty violent place. Truthfully, I have got to tell you when Rolling Stone called me up and said this I called him back and I said listen you guys are nuts! [Laughs] Nobody in the world is going to ask me for advice about anything -- I am notable crazy. And they said yeah that's why we think it's good. [Laughs]

CO: But you have had a tremendous amount of life experience, haven't you? And when you're giving advice to this fellow whose brother is headed to prison, the time you spent in prison in Texas -- I wonder how did that change you as a person?

DAVID CROSBY: Completely. You have to understand that I went in there as a junkie. I was fully completely addicted to cocaine and heroin both at the same time. Prison is the worst way to kick. I don't think there is any worse way actually than that. It was horrible. No -- nothing short of that really describes it. It was horrible. But you know it got me off the dope. And so truthfully if I had to choose about going back to being a junkie or going back to prison for another year -- I'd go back to prison for another year. Being a junkie is prison you carry around with you. You don't get it to leave.

CO: You have talked about the others from I guess "Woodstock generation" artists like Mama Cass, and Jimi Hendrix, and Janis Joplin who did not make it through. What do you reflect on when you think of them?

DAVID CROSBY: I think it's the saddest goddamn thing in the world. These are really good human beings. I knew them. Cass, really well. She was a very close friend. I mean we spent a lot of time together. I know these people. These are not scumbags. These are good human beings. They just get lost, and they messed with something that killed them. And that's heroin. That's how it is. It kills you. I don't want to dwell on this you know because I'd rather talk about music than drugs but that's what it does. And that's what it did to them and it's a real sad deal. That's why I fight against it.

CO: You're getting a lot of questions about later life because you are 77-years-old now, and people want to know if they'll be happy in the last part of their lives. And you had your advice for what you still think you have to do in your own life.

DAVID CROSBY: Well it's really how you go about it. I think most people are defeated by age. You know it's so demeaning and degrading. It's just disturbing. It's really hard. Getting old is really hard. You're kind of creaky and you can't really do much, but you used to be able to do. And I think it's hard to stay positive. I think most old people you know are very dependent on their families to keep them loved and keep them feeling like they are still valid human beings. We start feeling like an old piece of trash that somebody dropped. And that's really hard on you. You know? It's a lonely time. You're losing friends all the time. I think it's a really good time for your friends to be your friends. And it's a really good time to be very close with your family because it's hard. It's scary, isn't it? You know I'm okay with it but I think most people are not.

CO: But look at what you're doing. I mean you've put out four solo albums in the past five years. You're on tour. Anyone would look at you thinking, well obviously it doesn't slow you down to be in your 70s.

DAVID CROSBY: Not me at this particular moment in this particular thing. It slowed me down. I use to be able to walk ten miles. I can't walk ten blocks. It does that to you. And it's discouraging. But okay here's how I look at it, I got a certain amount of time -- whatever amount of time that is, maybe it's two weeks or maybe it's 10 years -- it's certainly unlikely that it's 10 years. But whatever time I got, the amount isn't the significant part. It's what you do with it. And that's a very simple thing. You have a certain amount of time -- what are you going to do? Are you going to sit there and snivel? And say, "Oh poor me. I'm dying. Oh it's terrible." Or are you going to do something? You know you still have the ability to create --well -- then career. The way I see it, things aren't too good right now in the United States of America. And you know damn well what I'm talking about. People are very discouraged. People like me who believe in the democracy, and who actually love the idea of this country, if not the reality -- we're pretty discouraged. Music make things better. It makes you feel better. It's the same way that war drags humanity down and brings out the very worst in the human race. Just so does music lift the human race up and make it better. Just exactly opposite. Music goes right upward. So okay I got one way I can contribute, one way to make living better for anybody. That's what I'm supposed to be doing. So I'm doing as hard and fast as I can in whatever time I got. That makes sense to me. I don't know why anybody is surprised by it. What did they think I was going to? Sit down and watch TV? No! Absolutely not. I'm not volunteering for that.

CO: But you had you had very intense relationships with the other artists. And people of course will just think of Crosby, Stills, & Nash -- and sometimes -- Young. But you've talked about how past musicians, people you played music with, won't talk to you. That you seem to have pissed off a lot of people.

DAVID CROSBY: Yeah I have absolutely. Whether that's my fault or their fault or a mixture of the two -- you know you have to work out for yourself. But you start out those relationships in bands and you really like each other a lot. And it's fun. 40 years later -- he said -- 40 years later when it gets down to just play the hits and you don't like each other and it's no fun, I have got to check out. I have got to do something else. That's why I left. I don't have any beef with any of them. They are on their own path and fine. I don't have any anger at them and I don't have any hatred for them at all.

CO: You felt compelled to apologize to Neil Young though.

DAVID CROSBY: I did yeah because I shot my mouth off about his girlfriend, and I shouldn't have. Duh. That's high school level stuff. He's holding onto it though, which I think is silly. And you know he's got a right to if he wants to. It's his life. I can't wait around trying to live out a therapy session with these guys. I don't have to talk to them like I just said. I don't have that amount of time. I got two important things in my life: music and my family. Right? Period. That's it. I can't not do it. I love making music. When I'm singing -- I'm winging it. I have got to tell you -- I don't sing anything the same twice. So I'm always kind of like out on the edge wondering what's going to happen next. And that is one of the greatest places on earth.

CO: If you could have a parallel life -- let's say this whole life of yours which has been extraordinary, a lot of ups and downs, a lot of tragedies, a lot of extremely high moments. But if you could have a parallel life one where you just lived as a normal guy and had a normal life. Got married had kids. Whatever. Lots of people as you know early on in rock music decide they can't cut it -- it's too hard. Do you think you could have had a different or even a better life?

DAVID CROSBY: Hmm different. I could have had a different one. I think I might have liked being a teacher. I like that moment when you're trying to explain something to a kid and it connects and there's like a spark and they go, "Oh you mean!" And it opens up for them. That's kind of a great moment.

CO: But could you imagine that you would have a life that wasn't being a musician?

DAVID CROSBY: Not if I knew about how it feels to be a musician. If I didn't know that then I could have done something else. You know about it, you want it.

CO: We want to play some of your music -- well you've given us advice -- life advice for our listeners -- and so what's the music that could be your best advice do you think?

DAVID CROSBY: Oh I can't pick one honey. It's like saying which one's your favorite child? [Laughter] You have to pick for yourself.

CO: Yes? You give me permission because I would love to.

DAVID CROSBY: Oh yeah you can play anything you want.

CO: David it's lovely to speak with you. Thank you.

DAVID CROSBY: Thank you for doing all the homework. That was a very good interview. Thank you very much.

CO: Thank you. Take care.

TA: David Crosby is Rolling Stone's new advice columnist. He was in New London, Connecticut.

[Music]

Jalen Rose

TA: There wasn't much celebration at Toronto's Scotiabank Arena last night. Obviously, Raptors fans were disappointed with the defeat. But despite their victory, the Golden State Warriors were struggling with a very real sense of loss. Their star forward Kevin Durant collapsed in the second quarter clutching his leg. For weeks now, he's been dealing with a calf injury. And it was touch and go as to whether he would play in Game 5 at all. Now Mr. Durant may have torn his Achilles tendon -- which would keep him off the court for months. There's a lot of blame to go around today. And this morning on ESPN's "First Take" former NBA player Jalen Rose did not hold back. He was asked whether the Warriors forward should have played in last night's game at all. And here's how he responded.

SOUNDCLIP

JALEN ROSE: The answer to this question is an emphatic no. Okay? And I'm not hedging my bet in any way shape or form. I was the person that came on this show in January of 2017 and defended the honor of one Kawhi Leonard -- when people were saying, questioning, whether he got misdiagnosed or not. He went on to play nine games that year. And as Max mentioned, ultimately got traded. Kevin Durant in this situation -- the reason why he should not have played, there are multiple answers to this question. One, I blame the overall culture of sports. There is a herd mentality that takes place when you're a professional athlete. And all of a sudden when you start to make a lot of money, people think that you're immune to everything that comes with being a human being. And so if the Golden State Warriors were up 3-1, K.D. would not have returned. But since they were down 3-1 he was forced to return based on all of the chatter that we knew it was going to take place: he soft, he really didn't want it, he wasn't committed to the team, oh and he was leaving anyway. And he knows that -- that's why he decided he wanted to come back. There is a group called State Property that I loved growing up -- and one of the things I think it was Oschino or Sparks said, people are bringing flowers to your funeral but don't bring you soup when you sick. That's what I'm seeing for K.D. right now. Everybody fake acting like they caring about K.D.'s best interests when they don't. It's phony to me. I just said Friday night on NBA Countdown that K.D.'s workout did not go well for nobody involved. And then when K.D. got cleared to play, people felt like they want to assassinate my character. "Oh you didn't know what you were talking about. K.D. is cleared to play." Just because he's out there warming up and doing dunks, that's adrenaline. It's a rush. He's a professional athlete. That is just like people having coffee in the morning or espresso or sugar -- it's going to be a rush. And then there's a crash. He should not play. And so now all of a sudden K.D. has to deal with an Achilles injury. I think that's going to keep him out 12 months -- if we hear it is torn. We got our pound of flesh as media, as fans, as people who watch this league faithfully. We wanted to see K.D. give himself to us. Congratulations world. You got your pound of flesh.

TA: Former NBA player, Jalen Rose, speaking on ESPN's "First Take" this morning about the Golden State Warriors' player Kevin Durant.

[Music]

Part 3: ISIS setting fire to crops in Syria and Iraq out of 'cold-blooded revenge,' monitor says

ISIS Crop Fires

Guest: Peter Schwartzstein

TA: The scorch marks across Syria and Iraq are said to be visible from satellites. And they're not from airstrikes. Monitoring officials say that for weeks now wildfires have spread across farmland in both countries. And the vast majority of the fires are being set on purpose likely by ISIS. Peter Schwartzstein has been tracking the fires. He is a fellow at the Centre for Climate and Security. We reached him in Amman, Jordan.

CO: Mr. Schwartzstein when did you first start noticing these massive crop fires across Syria and Iraq?

PETER SCHWARTZSTEIN: It was about a month ago when plenty of people notably within Iraq, and Syria, and also those of us who were mostly outside, realized that the volume of wildfires that was happening was above and beyond the kind of regular naturally occurring wildfires that often strike around this time of the year. And as the kind of number of fires increased and as their intensity increased, we started getting the sort of claims from ISIS.

CO: What claims were you getting from ISIS?

PS: ISIS have claimed 90 percent of the sort of 130 mega fires that have been recorded in Iraq alone. Now knowing what we know about ISIS and their kind of tendencies to claim even a local car crash down the street, we need to take all of that with a considerable pinch of salt. But given the group's longstanding tendency in recent years to adopt scorched earth tactics particularly in rural areas kind of poisoning wells, torching orchards, it's entirely characteristic of them to adopt an extension of that strategy and burn crops on mass.

CO: When you say "mega fires" -- how large are they?

PS: By North American standards, they might seem pretty small in comparison. The suggestion is that the largest of them is no more than 6 to 7-thousand acres. But all told, we're talking kind of high tens of thousands of acres. When one considers that the amount of vegetation is really quite small to begin with, the impact is outsized.

CO: And what crops are they burning? What is on fire?

PS: It's predominantly wheat. And what makes this sort of so devastating is that after dealing with kind of years of absolutely horrible drought and of course the absolute height of the campaign against ISIS and the conflict in Syria -- this was meant to be the year that farmers finally saw kind of an actual return on their kind of misery and hard work over the recent years. But for the kind of affected farmers, this is about as horrible thing as one could possibly experience. There are reports of farmers kind of working in little rotors sort of standing centuries with their neighbors alongside their land.

CO: That must also be dangerous. People live very close to their crops, don't they?

PS: Dangerous and particularly dangerous in areas in which ISIS kind of maintains kind of an insurgent structure. There are a number of occasions -- actually verified reports -- in which ISIS appeared to have laid explosive devices, mines, designed to kill the first responders -- those who were looking to extinguish these blazes and kind of nip them in the bud before they spread. From both the perspective of combating the fires themselves and the rather kind of additionally horrible circumstances that ISIS have so often exposed those kind of around them too. It's an extremely dangerous proposition.

CO: So often difficult to figure out what the reasoning is behind ISIS -- but what would be the strategic value of destroying these crops?

PS: It's seemingly twofold -- kind of strategic and emotional. The emotional is that kind of many of these fires have seemingly been targeted at the farming communities and areas which rejected ISIS rule. This is a kind of I guess a means of exacting retribution -- pure cold blooded revenge against those that ISIS cells, or perhaps ISIS at large, are harbouring serious grudges. And the second value, this is a means of kind of keeping them unstable and kind of ripe for their potential re-emergence. While farmers and plenty people in rural areas are understandably and totally [inaudible] and even more furious at ISIS than they were previously. If the state continues to fail in tackling these fires and continues to fail in preventing them in the first place, then ultimately this is our kind of betting that popular fury will turn on the state itself for its failure to kind of mean instability. And in that calculation they're quite possibly correct.

CO: But it's possible that not all of these fires are being set by ISIS. So who else might be involved in this scorched earth?

PS: Indeed. I mean in the same way as sort of copycat killings happen, it seems that plenty of others who are kind of piggybacking off of this sort of ISIS related phenomenon. We have a number of longstanding ethnic disputes including some between the fractured Kurdish and Arab communities in northern Iraq which in this instance seems to have manifested itself in fires as well. We've got reports of Iraqi government-affiliated Shiite militias in Diyala Governorate -- to the northeast of Baghdad -- setting a number of communities ablaze. And then we just got plenty of kind of significantly more localized -- even more localized stuff, kind of shepherds and farmers torching one another's land out of envy or perhaps slights, real or perceived. But it seems that the number of kind of non-ISIS related fires is probably significantly greater than those made by the jihadists themselves.

CO: It must be very difficult to try and research this because it would be very dangerous for the farmers to blame anyone, to actually point fingers and say this is where, because they're vulnerable to all of these players, aren't they?

PS: They are. I mean from a farming perspective this is kind of a perfect storm. And particularly in a part of the world like Iraq and Syria -- parts that have been suffering from pretty much every environmental issue imaginable. In order to actually grow a decent crop and turn a decent profit at this point you basically need everything in your favor -- you need favorable temperatures, you need at least some rainfall, and above all you need a kind of political environment which isn't sort of just absolutely destructive. So this is just like the latest manifestation of just years of endless horrors. And I've met plenty of farmers who's just thrown up their hands and said enough is enough and decamped to the cities. And after this latest disaster, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised to see plenty of other farmers just deciding that they can't hack it anymore.

CO: Such a devastating story. Mr. Schwartzstein I really appreciate you telling us about this. Thank you.

PS: Thank you very much for having me.

TA: Peter Schwartzstein is a fellow at the Centre for Climate and Security. We reached him in Amman, Jordan.

[Music]

Jon Stewart

TA: Jon Stewart was in Washington today doing what he does best: calling politicians on the carpet. At a Congressional hearing on the September 11th victims' fund, he expressed his anger at the seeming indifference of lawmakers to the health care problems of first responders. Earlier this year, the Victims Compensation Fund announced it was running out of money. Advocates want the compensation to be made permanent. Here is part of what Mr. Stewart had to say at the hearing.

SOUNDCLIP

JON STEWART: Behind me, a filled room of 9/11 first responders. And in front of me, a nearly empty Congress. Sick and dying, they brought themselves down here to speak...to no one. Shameful. It's an embarrassment to the country. And it is a stain on this institution. And you should be ashamed of yourselves for those that aren't here, but you won't be. Because accountability doesn't appear to be something that occurs in this chamber. We don't want to be here. Lou (Alvarez) doesn't want to be here. None of these people want to be here. But they are, and they're not here for themselves. They're here to continue fighting for what's right. Lou's going to go back for his 69th chemo. The great Ray Pfeifer would come down here, his body riddled with cancer and pain, where he couldn't walk, and the disrespect shown to him and to the other lobbyists on this bill it's utterly unacceptable.

TA: Jon Stewart speaking at a hearing in Washington earlier today. Later, Democrat Steve Cohen came to the defense of Congress according to The Hill. He said one reason for the empty chairs was that the hearing was held by a subcommittee in a full committee room. He added that he appreciated Mr. Stewart's advocacy and promised, quote, "Congress will respond."

[Music]

Bear incident

TA: For people in the Yukon, spotting a bear at this time of year isn't totally out of the ordinary. And if you give the bear its space, it'll probably give you yours. And you can head on your merry way. That's what Sierra Van Der Meer thought would happen on Sunday. She was cycling up a hill, along the highway to Whitehorse, when suddenly she realized that just two metres away on the roads shoulder, calmly munching on some grass, was a grizzly. Ms. Van Der Meer spoke to CBC Yukon's Leonard Linklater about what happened next.

SOUNDCLIP

SIERRA VAN DER MEER: Because I was climbing, I thought you know what I'm going to turn around because if this bear doesn't like me I want to be facing downward direction -- I want to be going down a hill. So I turned and I didn't expect it to even move but it kind of poked its head up and it saw me turning around and then to my surprise it decided to stop munching its grass and sort of walk up onto the highway and sort of chase me down the hill. I was a little bit relieved. I was facing the downward direction, so I got to do maybe a once in a lifetime sprint and it sort of kept coming behind me. But probably only you know five or 10 seconds of me riding and a minivan turned the corner and saw what was happening and she sort of sped up behind me and the bear went then into the ditch again and she pulled into the shoulder and followed me another maybe 200 or 300 metres at which point I finally felt safe to stop, and I stopped. She pulled up beside me and we exchanged some expletives that I can't see on the radio. She was very very nice. She said, "Would you like to jump in my van and just have a little break?" I said no that's okay. My husband was actually picking me up along the highway as he was coming back to Whitehorse. So I just kept going in the opposite direction. I decided I was not going to have a re-encounter with it. So just kind of got back on my bike and kept riding. And my husband picked me up maybe 10 minutes later. And certainly was a bit of a scare, and a nice way to get a really high heart-rate maybe on a training ride. This is funny because just last week I kept saying repeatedly to everyone that in all my years I've seen very very few bears in my entire life in the Yukon. I always kind of joke that they're hiding from me. So I'm going to stop bragging that I don't see bears because I think maybe I did this to myself. And I think this bear just wanted me to leave him alone and get out of his space. I don't think he was trying to kill me. That's how I feel good about this is that he just wanted me to sort of be out of his zone. And every time you read about what you're supposed to do with a bear, you know you're not supposed to sort of turn around and run away because then they chase you. So that decision that I made to turn around instead of just continuing past him might have been the wrong decision. But I was sure happy I was going downhill instead of uphill because I am not sure I would have been faster than him if I was still going uphill.

TA: Well that was Whitehorse resident Sierra Van Der Meer speaking on CBC Yukon's "Midday Cafe.".

[Music]

Grilled Cheese Maker

Guest: Lisa LeShane

TA: She came, she grilled, she conquered. Last weekend Newfoundlander Lisa LeShane got on a plane to Toronto. She was on a mission to show Ontario's best grilled cheese makers that she could butter, melt, and brown with the best of them -- at the 2019 Grilled Cheese Challenge Ms. LeShane is the owner of the St. John's food-truck "Oh My Cheeses." And according to the judges, she was good. They gave her third place. But according to the people, she was the best. She swept all the People's Choice Awards at the event. We reached Lisa LeShane in St. John's.

CO: Lisa what inspired you to think that you could come to Toronto and show them how it's done -- how you really make grilled cheese?

LISA LESHANE: Well it was actually a suggestion from the manager of the brewery where we have our food truck set up. And once she said, why don't you go to Toronto and try to win this? I was like why don't I?

CO: How popular are your grilled cheese sandwiches out there?

LL: Well we normally sell out at the farmer's market every weekend. You know we have our classic sandwiches "The Hot Mess" is sriracha mayo with caramelized onions, bacon, and mozzarella. That's probably our most popular sandwich. But we also sell a lot of "Kevin McAllister's" which is just plain cheese too.

CO: [Laughs] Okay so the winning sandwich -- the one that gave you this win in Toronto, tell us what that one was.

LL: Well it's based on a sandwich that's been on our menu for almost five years, and it's called "The Cupids" -- it's blueberry balsamic jam and old cheddar. It's named for the community that I grew up and where my parents still live and pick lots of berries. So when we decided we were going to go to Toronto we really wanted to bring up Newfoundland flavor. So we made sure that our jam contained only blueberries from Newfoundland. And we also bought up all of our bread. And a really great travel tip is to not over pack three Rubbermaid containers when you're flying but to just bring a fourth one so that you don't have to pay overages for different containers.

CO: Most people are not traveling with loaves of sour dough bread, and bacon, and blueberry apple jam. You're aware of that.

LL: [Laughs] Yeah -- well it was only 65 loaves, and you know it was quite the feat to get everything out there. We kind of based the one that we entered in Toronto -- the Cupids -- which is our probably second most popular sandwich down here. So we wanted to make it a little bit more special, a little bit more gourmet, so we added bacon. So it was blueberry apple jam, bacon, old cheddar, and then we finished it with a balsamic glaze and fresh basil -- we called it "The Violet" after the girl from Willy Wonka who blew up like a blueberry.

CO: [Laughs] People listening to this are trying to figure out or they're trying to assemble this in their minds because it's not the usual midnight snack that people assemble from the you know the pre-grated cheese in the bag that you put on top of the bread and stick it in the oven right or on the toaster.

LL: Oh boy! You can't do that. You need the homemade bread. And if you've ever been to Newfoundland, homemade bread is a staple. And you need to use like cheddar that you cut by hand.

CO: You mean it has to be grated...

LL: No. We slice the big kilogram blocks by hand. Because they add something to the grated cheese -- I'm not sure what it is but it just doesn't have the same texture.

CO: But you don't grate your cheese, you slice it?

LL: We slice it, yeah.

CO: Big thick slices? I'm taking notes here so.

LL: [Laughs] Well a lot of people in Toronto were watching us and asking us, are actually putting all of that cheese on the sandwich? And yes, we are very generous with our cheese portions.

CO: Okay so you got your sour dough bread that you brought with you. Then you got these big thick slices of cheese. And then what do you do after that?

LL: Well you put a healthy amount of Newfoundland blueberry apple Jam on there, and then a bit of bacon, and then you put a very healthy amount of butter -- definitely no margarine going on our grilled cheese. Grill to perfection. And then top it off with some blueberry glaze and fresh basil to really bring out the floral notes.

CO: And so how many of these sandwiches did you make in the end?

LL: We had a record breaking day -- and made 360 grilled cheese.

CO: [Laughs] And that certainly gave you the People's Choice Awards for all those sandwiches. So what are people back there -- you're back at the food truck, it's freezing cold in St. John's, what are they saying at Oh My Cheeses today?

LL: You know people are really proud and they're just blown away. I went to work this morning and my co-worker had me a cake. I was like this is great.

CO: Just final question for people who are thinking that they probably can't put all those ingredients together to make their grilled cheese, what's the biggest mistake people make when they're making a grilled cheese sandwich?

LL: I think the key is in the bread. And if you get a really light fluffy airy bread, it's not going to be able to hold up -- if the structural integrity of the grilled cheese will be compromised because you're not going to be able to put jam on something like Wonderbread, it's going to just fall apart on the grill. So you need tough bread -- like sour dough, and margarine just will not do.

CO: But lots of butter?

LL: Lots of butter. Yup.

CO: All right. Everyone's about to go make dinner and I think grilled cheese is going to be on the menu in a lot of houses. Lisa congratulations and thank you.

LL: Thank you so much.

TA: We reached food-truck owner and grilled-cheese artisan Lisa LeShane in St. John's.

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

June 11, 2019 Episode Transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode