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The AIH Transcript for December 26, 2019

Hosts: Helen Mann and Karen Gordon

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

HM: Seismic shift. A decade and a half after the Indian Ocean tsunami, communities gather around the Bay of Bengal to remember what was lost when the giant waves hit.

KG: At first there was just debris, then a glimmer of light. 15 years ago, she woke up, pinned beneath the water -- tonight, our guest says her survival began with one thing: a refusal to die.

HM: She's got game. A 93-year-old woman tells her grandson about growing up in the middle of the Second World War -- now he's turned her story into a video game about hardship and her human spirit.

KG: In the key that our souls were singing. We remember the late-great Allee Willis, who wrote smash hits for everyone from Earth, Wind and Fire to the Pet Shop Boys.

HM: Nit picking part one. An architecture professor weaves together worries about climate change and the need to eat into a vest that promises to grow your vegetables so long as you keep it fertilized with human waste.

KG: And nit picking part two. It's almost time for the puck to drop on Roch Carrier's annual reading of The Hockey Sweater -- the Canadian winter classic about catalog shopping gone awry. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that delivers a no duds guarantee.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Canadian who survived Boxing Day tsunami 15 years ago says it left her 'forever changed'

Tsunami Anniversary

Guest: Christine Lang

KG: It began when two of the earth's tectonic plates shifted beneath the Indian Ocean. The earthquake that followed produced 2004's Indian Ocean Tsunami with waves that were 30 metres high. Today, memorial services were held across Asia to remember the more than 200,000 people in over a dozen countries who died -- including those in the Thai fishing village of Ban Nam Khem. Here's part of that service that honored them.

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd singing]

KG: Sounds from the Thai fishing village of Ban Nam Khem where loved ones honored the 1,400 people who died following the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami. 15 years ago today, Christine Lang was also in Thailand on the island of Ko Phi Phi -- shopping with her brother's girlfriend. Then the water hit. Two days later, as she recovered in a hotel in Bangkok, Ms. Lang described the disaster to As It Happens.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRISTINE LANG: I was hit by the tsunami. I was fully submerged in the water. And I was pinned to...I don't know what it was. Surrounded by debris and wood and metal. And I was being crushed and I didn't know which way was up or down. And the second wave came and pushed me right out of that mess, thankfully. And I saw light. I kept reaching for the light and I got myself to the surface. I climbed over wood and tin. And luckily, again, I was very close to the second floor of a Thai house. Another tin-roof house that hadn't been demolished. And I made my way into the house and kept saying to myself out loud, "I'm going to get through this. I'm not going to die here. I'm not going to die here," with every step I took and every move I took.

KG: That was Christine Lang speaking to As It Happens in 2004 two days after the Boxing Day tsunami. Ms. Lang eventually returned to Canada and now works as a schoolteacher. We reached her in Vancouver.

HM: Christine Lang, what is it like for you to hear that all these years later?

CHRISTINE LANG: It's very chilling, but still very real. That moment is still in the back of my head. It's a bit surreal to listen to myself talk about it so soon after that event.

HM: We should say that we did ask if it was okay to play that for you -- I am wondering, does it take much to trigger memories of that day for you?

CL: Well, I talk about it less because it's been 15 years since that happened. It's something that will probably always live with me because it was a major fracture in my life. So it's not something that I can forget. To have gone through about on a Christmas vacation and to have survived it, it was quite something.

HM: We heard in that piece of tape the moments of you struggling for survival. When you think about it, what do you see in your mind? What is most vivid for you?

CL: In that moment when I was picked up by the wave, the most vivid moment for me was waking up underwater and I knew I was down deep -- the whole island was flooded. And I remember looking up and I saw in the distance a small circle of light was streaming in. And I just instantly thought, I need to get to the surface. And I just started swimming through motionless water. Random objects hitting me and my heart was jack-hammering and my lungs were ready to burst. And I just kept swimming for that circle of light coming from the surface. And eventually I got there.

HM: You said in that 2004 interview that you remembered thinking, "I'm not going to die here." Where do you think that came from?

CL: I think that just came from like raw adrenaline and probably just being so angry in that moment. I used my anger to just fuel me and get out of that situation. I was on a Christmas vacation and this was just so shocking and unbelievable that this would happen. I just wanted to live through that experience. I didn't want to die. And I just was fortunate enough that I found an opportunity to save myself.

HM: How were you finally rescued?

CL: Well, I wouldn't say that I was rescued in like a sort of traditional sense. I eventually got up onto the roof of a Thai house and slid down and climbed up to make my way to a hotel that hadn't been demolished. And I think it was about six-stories high. It was maybe one the only high-rises on the island. And eventually I got there. I met other survivors that were helping people. And it was at about 2:00 am, I think, in the middle of the night (that) somebody came to the rooftop and said, 'There is a boat. Slowly make your way to the pier if you can and take something that floats because we don't know what's going to happen.' So there were a couple of British tourists with me at that time. They said, "We're leaving, Christine, come with us." And we made our way there through major gaps in the ground and people had laid down boards. This was after all the water had been sucked back out into the bays. And we slowly made our way to the pier. And there was a Thai long boat that taxied us out to a Thai naval ship that was out in the water. And that's how we got out.

HM: As you were making your way towards that ship and you saw what had happened, and got a sense of the scale of the devastation -- what did you see? What went through you?

CL: It was complete shock. Nothing seemed real. We couldn't even see the surface of the water. The surface of the water was covered with suitcases and clothing and roof tops and all kinds of debris that was picked up by the tsunami and pushed off the island and into the water. So it seemed more like we were trapped in like a blockbuster movie. Everything seemed very surreal and everything seemed very moment to moment, just trying to get out, trying to survive.

HM: In the moments before the wall of water hit, you had been with your brother's girlfriend, Rubina Wong. And she was killed that day, along with so many thousands of others. Do you still think about the circumstances, the decisions that you made, that kept you alive when so many others perished?

CL: I think about her all the time. That's why I'm talking to you today. I feel like so many people lost their voice in that moment. I somehow saved my own life and I had an opportunity to save myself. And I feel that's why I must talk about it, because so many people didn't come home. And I feel like it's a story that needs to be told. There was no warning system at all on the island or in many places at that time in 2004. There was no warning system. There was time for people -- (were) told to get off the beach. But it was a 9.1 magnitude earthquake that happened off the coast of Indonesia. And there was a warning centre in Hawaii and they saw this. But there was no process in place to warn people to get off. And unfortunately, many people lost their lives as a result.

HM: And so in spreading the word, you hoped that that would change things.

CL: Possibly or maybe help people in some way. Hearing that, you know, when you think there's no hope that maybe it's not over till it's over.

HM: Did you have a lot of physical injuries to deal with?

CL: Because I was in the water and the water was very contaminated -- a lot of people who didn't get medical treatment ended up getting septicemia (blood poisoning.) But I was lucky. I was fortunate that we got to a hospital and I got the proper medication and treatment. So that didn't happen to me. I had superficial wounds. I mean, it really was insignificant. I had my life so any anything else it didn't really matter.

HM: We hear a lot about people in circumstances like this talking about survivor's guilt and you know, the challenges that that poses. Maybe not guilt, but just the idea that you've gotten through this when so many haven't. Can you share with us what the aftermath has been like for you in these past 15 years?

CL: I would say to experience something like this is one thing, but the aftermath is another thing. It's not easy. It can change your perception of the world. It can also make you grateful for what you have. For me, this has been 15 bonus years of life. I easily could have died there and, you know, 100 times over. It is a huge fracture in my life to have gone through something like this. It's not easy to overcome that. And I don't think I ever will. It's a big part of me and what happened to me. So it's not something that goes away. And it's led to some other things.

HM: Like what?

CL: Talking about it -- so soon after I came home my great uncle heard me talking. He was a pilot in the Royal Canadian Air Force in World War Two. He was a fighter pilot. And he passed away a couple of years ago. And he gifted me with the war medals of his brother, who was also a pilot in World War Two -- a Lancaster Bomber Pilot. He gifted me with his war medals and all the letters he wrote home from England when he was stationed there in World War Two. And it was one of most precious gifts I've ever gotten in my life. But I think one story led to another. You know, he heard me interviewed on a radio show or on TV, and I guess he knew that I would do something with those medals. They had been in his care for like over 70 years. And I started researching that. And I went to England and visited his squadron a couple of years ago and was put in touch with one of the descendants of my great uncle Paul's crew. It was the daughter of the air bomber. And last year, she invited me to a 75th anniversary of my great uncle's plane crash in Blamont, France. He saved a small town in France. And I attended in May. And my story led to another story like that. They're linked in some way.

HM: Pretty extraordinary connections then. Will you do or have you done anything to mark the 15th anniversary of the tragedy?

CL: Well, the day hasn't ended yet and I may go down to the water at some point today and visit it to say my thanks and remember.

HM: I am so grateful that you were able to talk to us today. Thank you so much.

CL: Thank you.

HM: All right. I appreciate it. You take care.

CL: You too.

KG: Christine Lang was in Thailand when the 2004 Boxing Day Tsunami hit. She spoke to us today from Vancouver. You can find more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Wearable farm

Guest: Aroussiak Gabrielian

KG: It sounds like something out of a post-apocalyptic universe. In a world where food and water sources are scarce, one architecture professor asked: what will become of society as we know it? A question inspired Aroussiak Gabrielian to create the world's first wearable farm. The farm is a project called Posthuman Habitats. It's a vest that grows plants and crops using fertilizer from human waste made by the wearer. Ms. Gabrielian is a professor of landscape architecture at the University of Southern California. We reached her in New York.

HM: Ms. Gabrielian can you describe for us what these wearable farms currently look like and how they're actually worn?

AROUSSIAK GABRIELIAN: Sure. The project uses technology that already exists in creating vertical gardens throughout the world, particularly the soil-less system that was developed by the French botanist Patrick Blanc. So it's a layer of moisture attention felt fabric onto which the seeds are directly place and watered until they germinate and then they're uncovered. And it takes about two weeks for the base material, which is microgreens to grow to a kind of full level before they're harvested. So the garments themselves are lush, green and bright purple depending on what's grown. You know it looks like a living garment. If you were to take a piece of farmland and wrap it around yourself.

HM: So the vegetables grow on both the front and the back of the vest.

AG: Yes, exactly. And there's pocket made for some vegetables that aren't the microgreens that would require some level of soil. There are some pockets that would hold that soil and can hold the bigger vegetables.

HM: I was going to ask you when describe microgreens, I always think of things like herbs. But what are we talking about?

AG: So we're talking about herbs. We're talking about cabbage, radish, lettuces. We've experimented with strawberries and even peanuts and mushrooms.

HM: And it's not just the plants that are the living creatures in these vests, right?

AG: No, it's not. The cloaks themselves of course didn't incorporate any of the pollinators. But the idea is that if you were to wear these and this was the way that you would grow your food, that eventually maybe this would become a habitat for even bigger creatures that are especially the pollinators. You may know that a third of our food is pollinator-dependent and they're slowly disappearing from this planet. So this was a way to kind of encourage them to maybe stick around longer.

HM: So you could attract bees and butterflies for example.

AG: Exactly. And other insects. So the cloaks when we planted them actually we didn't introduce any of the insects, but they did come and were part of the ecosystem that was on the body.

HM: What was the inspiration for creating these vests?

AG: So this happened at a particular moment in my doctoral work where I was immersed in literature around the post-human. And this is the idea that human exceptionalism has been such a kind of dominant part of our lives. And so I was immersed in this reading, particularly of Rosi Braidotti poses a question in the book titled "The Posthuman" where she asks: what would a geo-centric subject look like? And so this was a question that was floating around in my brain. And this was also at the same time when I had just given birth to my daughter. And my body in front of me -- I don't know if you have gone through the process of birth, but your body turns into a machine that starts to produce the exact nutrients that your child requires and the precise delivery system to get this food to the child. And so I was amazed at my own body for its ability to do this. So with this question in mind, I started to think: can we use our bodies to feed more than just our kin? And so I thought to tap into the bodily systems, such as the renal system and the digestive system and to try to imagine, you know, in a future state where our soils are depleted and there's not enough access to water: how would we be producing that amount of crops necessary to feed our growing population? And so I thought, you know, there's this system that exists that grows decorative plants as green as vertical gardens throughout the world -- why not use this fabric based system to grow food directly on our bodies and to kind of tap into those bodily systems? And also not only provide food for the human, but also create this habitat for all these insects and pollinators and the kind of microorganisms that are required to produce the food that we depend on to produce our food.

HM: And when you talk about bodily systems, it's like a symbiosis in all of this -- you're actually talking about fertilizing with human waste. How is that achieved?

AG: So the idea is that your urine would be captured via a catheter, filtered through a process called forward osmosis. This is developed by NASA technology that currently exists that is used in space and delivered to the crops as irrigation as the source of irrigation because urine is 95 percent water and it's low on pathogens. So this would be kind of easy irrigation and water system to tap into.

HM: If this were to catch on and you'd obviously have to convince people that this is a great idea, they have to be willing to wear the vest. What does it feel like? How much does it weigh? Does it smell?

AG: Yes, it does. There are all of these things. So it's very damp. And the system, I guess you could have a layer -- I had a layer that was protecting me from the dampness, but you could still feel the dampness even within because it has an insulating factor. So you're both warm inside, but it's also moist. It's very uncanny feeling to be immersed in this. It's pretty heavy. It weighs 20 pounds because it's carrying 20 pounds of crops. And it has an intense smell. The radishes and the cabbage actually are quite potent when grown. And it's directly under your nose. So it is quite a bizarre feeling to be cloaked in one of these.

HM: What kind of reaction have you gotten from people?

AG: You know the reactions have been really interesting because they are quite attractive as artifacts. So there's this level of attraction. And then once you realize how it's being powered -- that it's using bodily system and bodily waste -- then there's also this repulsion factor and once you see the insects crawling around. So it's a strange attraction repulsion thing that happens with the visitors who come across it. It certainly inspired a lot of interesting dialogs.

HM: Well it really is fascinating. You've got us talking. So thank you so much. I appreciate you talking to us.

AG: Of course. Thank you.

KG: Aroussiak Gabrielian is a professor of landscape architecture at the University of Southern California. We reached her in New York. If you want to see some photos of the vests, head to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

The Shepherd Reaction

KG: Every Christmas Eve, As It Happens broadcasts Alan Maitland's reading of the 1975 Frederick Forsyth story "The Shepherd." And your response always amazes us. You called, emailed, and you posted on social media all to say how much the story and Mr. Maitland's reading mean to you.

HM: Geoffrey Dyke wrote "Many years ago, I'd be driving the iceroad between Aklavik and Inuvik, Northwest Territories when "The Shepherd" would come on the radio. The darkness and ice-fog would reduce visibility to the point where I could almost feel myself in that pilot's shoes. By the time the story would come to an end, I'd spot the lights of Inuvik shining through like the runway lights in the story. I'd silently thank Alan Maitland for keeping me company on the drive."

KG: And this came in from Elaine Hughes: "While listening to AIH and The Shepherd in 1979 I was moved to tears -- just as I was while listening to my taped version every Christmas while volunteering overseas for several years. And last evening, while sitting in the light of one candle on my wee farm in northeast Saskatchewan, I was once again weeping."

HM: And Elaine, you weren't alone. John Russell wrote: "Every year I weep like a baby. A couple of years ago, I was inspired by 'Fireside' Al and built a diorama of the landing scene from The Shepherd. It used 1/72 scale model planes, sheet styrene and LED lights, and it still has a place of honor on my shelf. Wish I could show it here."

KG: Well, we can show it. It's on our Twitter and our website: cbc.ca/aih. And at that same address, you can also listen to The Shepherd again. Thanks to everyone who wrote and called.

[Music]

Allee Willis

KG: "Rest in peace, Boogie Wonderland." That's how Allee Willis's long-time partner announced her passing. It was a reference to the hit she co-wrote for Earth, Wind and Fire in 1979. Allee Willis died in Los Angeles on Tuesday. She was 72. Ms. Willis wrote hits for Dusty Springfield, The Pet Shop Boys, The Pointer Sisters, and the theme song for the TV show Friends. You know the one "I'll be there for you." And "Boogie Wonderland" wasn't the only Earth, Wind and Fire earworm that Allee Willis had a hand in. She also co-wrote "September" with frontman Maurice White. In later years, Ms. Willis recalled how Mr. White included the nonsense word "ba-dee-ya" in the chorus. She asked him, quote, "What the f-- does ba-dee-ya mean?" He replied, quote, "Who the f-- cares?" Allee Willis credited Maurice White and that song with teaching her the greatest lesson ever in song-writing -- quote -- "Never let the lyric get in the way of the groove.".

[Music]

Part 2: Roch Carrier reads his beloved short story The Hockey Sweater

Encore: WWII video game

KG: The holidays are a time for giving. And so this season we're giving you another chance to hear some of our favorite interviews of the year. One of them was our conversation with Bob De Schutter. Mr. De Schutter is a video game designer and a professor of applied game design at Miami University in Ohio. Last month, he launched a new game. It features a surprising main character: his 93 year old grandmother, Bie Verlinden. It's based on an interview she gave him about her memories of growing up in a farm house in Geel, Belgium, during World War Two. Mr. De Schutter spoke with As It Happens guest host Nil Koksal this summer before the game's release. Here's that conversation from our archives.

NK: Mr. De Schutter you must have a really interesting grandmother for you to want to make a game about her. What's she like?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Oh she's pretty spectacular. My grandmother is tough as nails really. You know I'm six foot eight myself, I'm about 220 pounds -- and yeah she can pretty much pin me down with one arm. I think it's probably you know growing up on a farm and with everything that happened to her in her life she's got good muscle.

NK: What's the story people will learn about your grandmother if they play your game?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Well I'm hoping that they will learn what it's like to be an innocent bystander in the middle of a war zone because I think in this day and age that's something that's very valuable for people to be aware of. Aside from that, the game is a lesson in history -- you'll learn what life was like in the 1920s and 30s on a farm house. And then of course the game delves into the Second World War part. And there was a lot there especially the human aspect of it. You know their backyard pretty much turned into the frontline and there were British soldiers and German soldiers killing each other there. There were tank shells hitting the house at some point -- well in multiple points actually. The house caught fire and things like that. So it was a pretty devastating time and very dramatic.

NK: Walk us through how the game will actually work? How do you play it?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: So when you play the game in the beginning you play as me going back to the house because you've been hearing all these amazing stories about my grandmother's childhood and all the crazy war stories that she's been through. Whenever you take a picture of an object, you'll hear my grandmother's stories about why that object is relevant to her and that's how you'll learn about life in the 20s and 30s. But then at some point you feel it's time to go home because you have enough pictures but then you get locked in the house and the ghosts of the past come to life and you'll have to deal with everything that my grandmother went through during the Second World War.

NK: You shared some sound from the game with us. In it your grandmother is speaking Flemish. We're going to get you to explain it after but I want to play listeners that clip now.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Dramatic Music]

[Sound: Guns being fired]

[Sound: Bomb explosion]

[Woman speaking in Flemish]

[Man coughing]

NK: It's intense. We can certainly feel that in those moments even without a translation. But take us through what's happening there and what your grandmother's saying.

BOB DE SCHUTTER: It starts with: you walk into this basement and you get locked in the basement and there's explosions and everything -- that's what we heard in the beginning, they are kind of muffled. But you know you're kind of safe because you're down in this basement and the explosions come from outside. Then there's the silence after the explosions. There's a lot of heavy breathing as well because you as a character are feeling anxious about being in this situation obviously. And then my grandmother starts talking and she says so then it was silent again like it's in the game at that point in time. And she pulls the door open because there was gas coming everywhere and all that they had while they were sitting in that basement was some patches of clothing like you see in movies actually they rip pieces of their own clothing and they dip them in whatever water was available there and put that on their mouths because apparently that helped him to get some air.

NK: And that's just one of the stories that players will have access to if they decide to play your game. Take us through another one.

BOB DE SCHUTTER: For me personally the story that sticks with me the most is the one -- well it's Chapter 7 "The English Soldier" in the game. So it's a story about a drunken English soldier who well just got drunk and put a gun against my grandfather's chest for no reason whatsoever. You know if he would have shot my grandfather at that point I wouldn't be here right now.

NK: I understand you wanted to make this kind of a game since you were about 12-years-old and you mentioned off the top of the interview that you think people could benefit from it at this point in time. Why?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Yeah I think you know there is still a lot of geopolitical issues going on right now. Obviously in Belgium, they have some significant issues with integration and immigration as well. And I feel you know growing up with my grandmother stories I've always felt for 1) nobody wants to be in a war zone like that and that's something that's completely out of your control. So I always feel that it's unfair when people who are fleeing from being in that kind of situation are seen as people that are trying to profit from another country's resources or something like that because well my grandmother couldn't flee because they were literally stuck there because you know it's a different day and age and transportation was a lot harder and all the countries around them were also at war. So I feel it's a lesson in empathy that is helpful for a lot of people in this day and age.

NK: Your grandmother is in her 90s now. How worried are you that about how foggy some of her memories may or may not be?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: You know having a background in psychology obviously I'm aware that memory is something very fragile. Now thankfully my grandmother is you know mentally still very fit and most of these stories for her are not necessarily as much remembering as re-experiencing. With that in mind, I feel that there's definitely some arguments to be made that a lot of the stuff that she's saying is probably pretty accurate. On the other hand though obviously since memory is just a fragile thing in general -- you know I've done my homework and I've looked into making sure that most of the things that you'll see in the game was accurately depicted as I possibly can. I've even swapped out things that were in earlier versions of the games for more historically accurate assets for example. But in general when it comes down to it I always went with the subjective interpretation or story if you will that I got from my grandmother because for me it's mostly important that players experience everything through her eyes rather than something that is 100 percent historically correct. With that being said though I do feel that we hit at least like 80 or 90 percent.

NK: I know many women who love gaming but there are also many I know -- you probably know -- feel it's it can be a pretty misogynistic place so do you think this game could also help combat some of that?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Well I really hope it does. I think you know it's always a drop on a hot stove I guess because the industry still has enormous problems with that. But at the end of the day if enough people keep doing this we can make a change and I truly believe and I think I've been attending the biggest industry events for the last 10 years you can really see a difference in how people talk about these issues and the amount of effort that companies put into making sure that it becomes a less misogynistic environment online. And there's been huge strides in terms of content as well. There has been so many games come out that are not just inclusive of women but also older people or the LGBTQ community. And I think that is a huge plus for the game industry especially considering that this is one of the biggest medium or media that we have out there right now.

NK: How does your grandmother feel about being the star of a computer game?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Yes. She was never really expecting anything like this. The Belgian newspapers obviously have picked this up as well and she's been in the major national newspapers two or three times now already to the point that a documentary crew is looking to see if they can do something with her. So you know she's turned a little bit into a celebrity even. I mean it's still just a tiny celebrity. But I have no idea where it is going to end now because in the last year we really made a lot of strides with that.

NK: She'll be headlining gaming conferences. That's what's next. [Laughs] Playing the game.

BOB DE SCHUTTER: [Laughs] If only she would be willing to get on an airplane yes.

NK: Mr. De Schutter thank you so much for this. My pleasure. Thanks for listening.

KG: From August, that was Bob De Schutter speaking with As It Happens guest host Nil Koksal. Last month, the professor and game designer released a video game featuring his grandmother. We reached him in Cincinnati, Ohio. If you'd like to see some pictures of his grandmother and some video of what that game looks like visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Reading: The Hockey Sweater

KG: If you're of a certain age, you may remember a time when holiday shopping wasn't done online. If you couldn't get to the store, you could order things by mail from a well-thumbed catalog in the comfort of your home. It's a time that Roch Carrier remembers really well. When the author was young a catalog order that his mother made went wrong. Very very wrong. You probably know what I'm talking about. It's the beloved Canadian story based on Mr. Carrier's childhood in Sainte-Justine, Quebec. Here's Roch Carrier reading "The Hockey Sweater."

SOUNDCLIP

ROCH CARRIER: The winters of my childhood were long, long seasons. We lived in three places – the school, the church, and the skating-rink, but our real life was on the skating-rink. Real battles were won on the skating-rink. Real strength appeared on the skating-rink. The real leaders showed themselves on the skating-rink. School was a sort of punishment. Parents always want to punish children and school is their most natural way of punishing us. However, school was also a quiet place where we could prepare for the next hockey game, lay out our next strategies. As for church, we found there the tranquillity of God: there we forgot school and dreamed about the next hockey game. Through our daydreams it might happen that we would recite a prayer: we would ask God to help us play as well as Maurice Richard.

We all wore the same uniform as he, the red, white, and blue uniform of the Montreal Canadiens, the best hockey team in the world; we all combed our hair in the same style as Maurice Richard, and to keep it in place we used a sort of glue – a great deal of glue. We laced our skates like Maurice Richard, we taped our sticks like Maurice Richard. We cut all his pictures out of the papers. Truly, we knew everything about him.

On the ice, when the referee blew his whistle the two teams would rush at the puck; we were five Maurice Richards taking it away from five other Maurice Richards; we were ten players, all of us wearing with the same blazing enthusiasm the uniform of the Montreal Canadiens. On our backs, we all wore the famous number 9.

One day, my Montreal Canadiens sweater had become too small; then it got torn and had holes in it.

My mother said: "If you wear that old sweater people are going to think we're poor!"

Then she did what she did whenever we needed new clothes. She started to leaf through the catalogue the Eaton company sent us in the mail every year. My mother was proud. She didn't want to buy our clothes at the general store; the only things that were good enough for us were the latest styles from Eaton's catalogue. My mother didn't like the order forms included with the catalogue; they were written in English and she didn't understand a word of it. To order my hockey sweater, she did as she usually did; she took out her writing paper and wrote in her gentle schoolteacher's hand:

"Cher Monsieur Eaton, Would you be kind enough to send me a Canadiens sweater for my son who is ten years old and a little too tall for his age and Docteur Robitaille thinks he's a little too thin? I'm sending you three dollars and please send me what's left if there's anything left. I hope your wrapping will be better than last time."

Monsieur Eaton was quick to answer my mother's letter. Two weeks later we received the sweater. That day I had one of the greatest disappointments of my life! I would even say that on that day I experienced a very great sorrow. Instead of the red, white, and blue Montreal Canadiens sweater, Monsieur Eaton had sent us a blue and white sweater with a maple leaf on the front - the sweater of the Toronto Maple Leafs. I'd always worn the red, white, and blue Montreal Canadiens sweater; all my friends wore the red, white, and blue sweater; never had anyone in my village ever worn the Toronto sweater, never had we even seen a Toronto Maple Leafs sweater. Besides, the Toronto team was regularly trounced by the triumphant Canadiens. With tears in my eyes, I found the strength to say:

"I'll never wear that uniform."

"My boy, first you're going to try it on! If you make up your mind about things before you try, my boy, you won't go very far in this life."

My mother had pulled the blue and white Toronto Maple Leafs sweater over my shoulders and already my arms were inside the sleeves. She pulled the sweater down and carefully smoothed all the creases in the abominable maple leaf on which, right in the middle of my chest, were written the words "Toronto Maple Leafs". I wept.

"I'll never wear it."

"Why not? This sweater fits you ... like a glove."

"Maurice Richard would never put it on his back."

"You aren't Maurice Richard. Anyway, it isn't what's on your back that counts, it's what you've got inside your head."

“You'll never put it in my head to wear a Toronto Maple Leafs sweater."

My mother sighed in despair and explained to me: "if you don't keep this sweater which fits you perfectly I'll have to write Monsieur Eaton and explain that you don't want to wear the Toronto sweater. Monsieur Eaton's an Anglais; he'll be insulted because he likes the Maple Leafs. And if he's insulted do you think he'll be in a hurry to answer us? Spring will be here and you won't have played a single game, just because you didn't want to wear that perfectly nice blue sweater."

So I was obliged to wear the Maple Leafs sweater. When I arrived on the rink, all the Maurice Richards in red, white, and blue came up, one by one, to take a look. When the referee blew his whistle I went to take my usual position. The coach came and warned me I'd be better to stay on the forward line. A few minutes later the second line was called; I jumped onto the ice. The Maple Leafs sweater weighed on my shoulders like a mountain. The coach came and told me to wait; he'd need me later, on defence. By the third period I still hadn't played; one of the defence-men was hit in the nose with a stick and it was bleeding. I jumped on the ice: my moment had come! The referee blew his whistle; he gave me a penalty. He claimed I'd jumped on the ice when there were already five players. That was too much! It was unfair! It was persecution! It was because of my blue sweater! I struck my stick against the ice so hard it broke. Relieved, I bent down to pick up the debris. As I straightened up I saw the young vicar, on skates, before me.

"My child," he said, "just because you're wearing a new Toronto Maple Leafs sweater unlike the others, it doesn't mean you're going to make the laws around here. A proper young man doesn't lose his temper. Now take off your skates and go to the church and ask God to forgive you.

Wearing my Maple Leafs sweater I went to the church, where I prayed to God; I asked him to send, as quickly as possible, moths that would eat up my Toronto Maple Leafs sweater.

KG: That was "The Hockey Sweater" written and read by Roch Carrier. It's published by Tundra Books. And if you'd like to listen to that story again, you can hear it on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 3: Encore: How Ken Dryden turned Scotty Bowman into an NHL coach again

Encore: Scotty Bowman and Ken Dryden

KG: Over the next two weeks, some of the best up and coming hockey players will face off at the World Junior Hockey Championships in Vancouver and Victoria. And when they do, there's a good chance Scotty Bowman will be watching. Like many Canadian kids then and now, the former NHL coach lived and breathed hockey growing up. His dreams of playing in the NHL were dashed when he suffered a fractured skull at the age of 18. But that wasn't the end of his hockey career, it was just the beginning. Over the years, Scotty Bowman spent countless hours traveling to small town rinks as coach and scout, working his way up the ranks. The results are undeniable. In 1973, Mr. Bowman won his first Stanley Cup as coach of the Montreal Canadiens. Over the next three decades, he would win eight more -- making him the winningest NHL coach of all time. Mr. Bowman's history and historic hockey career are documented in the book "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other" which was written by someone who had an up close view of his hockey life, his former Montreal Canadiens goaltender, Ken Dryden. Mr. Dryden and Mr. Bowman joined Carol in the As It Happens studio earlier this year to talk about life behind the bench and on the ice. Here's an encore broadcast of that conversation.

CO: Wow! I can't believe I'm sitting here in the As It Happens studio with two legends -- Scotty Bowman and Ken Dryden. Welcome to this show and to the studio.

BOTH: [Both say thanks]

CO: I have to say, Scotty, you look terrific. And Ken you look the same. I mean, you've had all these careers. I just learned now you hosted As It Happens.

KEN DRYDEN: Yeah, I think I was two or three nights and it was during the time of Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance.

CO: We must have had to bring you in for that for some mysterious reason.

KD: Yeah. I don't know. I mean I enjoyed doing it. I'm not sure the audience enjoyed it. But anyway.

CO: But then you were a lawyer. You were an MP. You were a cabinet minister. You've written books. And there is that goalie thing I guess you did at some point, right, sort of way back.

KD: Well, it was pretty nice to do it with the other person across the table from you. And when you have the best coach and surrounded by the best players, it's pretty nice to be a goalie.

CO: But you were a great goalie. And we all know that. Scotty knows that. I want to begin by taking you and our listeners back to Game 5 of the 2002 Stanley Cup finals.

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd cheering]

ANNOUNCER 1: Here come the Hurricanes -- the shot...

ANNOUNCER 2: Deflected wide of the net. Shanahan. Empty net. Scores! Shanahan does it!

[Crowd cheers loudly]

CO: Wow. The empty neter at Game 5 of the 2002 Stanley Cup. What's it like for you to hear that again 17-years-later?

SCOTTY BOWMAN: It's still the same. You know, when you're nursing a one goal lead and you're in the Stanley Cup finals and you can think of the ending, but that empty net goal, I think there was a half a minute to go so that was probably the biggest the relief you ever had that year. Because I knew that I was not going to be coaching after the season and to go out and have the team win the Stanley Cup it makes it a lot easier.

CO: Yeah, it's just a very very exciting moment. And you know, Scotty Bowman nine Stanley Cups coach. 14 Stanley Cups would include your stint in management. And we could just keep giving the numbers for how many things you have done which makes you the greatest hockey coach ever. And that's why I think Ken Dryden -- you wanted to write this book about Scotty Bowman. Was it the numbers? Was it the stats? Or was it something else that led you Ken?

KD: It was that. But it was also -- I knew that Scotty had lived a hockey life that was absolutely unlike anyone else ever had and ever will again. Born in Verdun in 1933, started listening to games on radio. Then when he was recruited to play for a minor hockey team sponsored by the Montreal Canadiens, the big perk was to get a standing room pass to the Forum. And so from say, 1947 or so on Saturday nights, I mean you take the 58 bus up to the Forum, you watch the games and you see "The Rocket" in his prime. You see the Detroit Red Wings starting to become great. You see Gordie Howe at age 17. Then it's Ted Lindsay. And Red Kelly. And see Terry Sawchuk emerge. And the first really great team in NHL history, the Detroit Red Wings -- Scotty's watching it. Then he starts to get more involved with the Canadiens. And he's there watching a team that still has the NHL record of winning five cups in a row from 1956 until 1960. And he's there. After that you know, he's there. He's there. He's there. And he's not only there, he's behind the bench. He's in the dressing room. He's coaching the best. He's coaching against the best. Year after year after year and right up to the present where his son, Stan, is a two-time Stanley Cup winning general manager of the Chicago Blackhawks. And Scotty is an advisor there. He watches and he never stops watching and he never stops learning. That's why.

CO: And what's so interesting Scotty -- your face as Ken gives that list of all the reasons why you became so legendary, because you watched...and you didn't just watched like we watch. You studied it, didn't you? You studied all those players. When you were in the Forum -- even in those days when you were just a kid watching to see what made them magic, right?

SB: Yeah, I would say that's where I got the passion for hockey like any young person growing up in Canada. And in those days, you know, hockey was your life. I was fortunate because I was able to watch the NHL. I was able to watch the best. And you learn by watching. And I started coaching at a very young age and I coached a lot of people my same age. So I was never like an older person coaching younger kids. And I think that kind of helps you -- you get to know everybody. Coaching is something that is a process. And I started right at the bottom. And that's where you have to start.

CO: But there's a curious detail, a fact that Ken reports in this book, which maybe other people know. But you were in Montreal -- Verdun. Everyone is talking. Every boy your age, everybody's talking hockey. You were a fan of the Boston Bruins. What's that all about?

SB: I was able to get the radio station and the announcer was Frank Ryan. I was able to listen to the games, but I had to go to bed at the end of the first period or second period sometimes. And I guess I got attracted to the game because of the radio. But the Boston Bruins -- they were a dynasty at that time and they won the Cup in I think it was 1939, 1941. And then the wartime came -- it was quite a story. I did meet some of the people on that team, especially the late Milt Schmidt. I guess getting attracted to a winning team is always pretty attractive for anybody.

CO: The Boston Bruins is always my father's favorite team. And we're in Winnipeg. So I think that they captured a lot of hearts. We have to go back to Maurice "Rocket" Richard. Because you mentioned it. And I know you watched him closely. We have some more tape we want to play. Richard missed the playoffs, as you know, in 1955 because he hit a linesman and was suspended by NHL President Clarence Campbell. And that led to the "Richard riots" as you know. And we are just going to play a bit of that tape and get you both to respond to it.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: The main entrance of the Forum on Saint-Catherine St -- a huge crowd of people has assembled here. Number in hundreds -- in the thousands. As they cheer -- as the police try to push them back. The police are now forming a line and pushing the crowd back.

[Crowd shouting]

CO: I think "Down with Campbell" was the last thing we heard there. Scotty do you remember that?

SB: I was at the game. March 17th. I had my standing room pass. And I think that was the year I was starting to coach a junior B team. I was at the game and I was standing behind the blue sections in the end zone. And actually right below me was the seats where the president the late Clarence Campbell was with his wife. And Detroit took I think it was at least two or three goal lead. It was a very important game for both teams because it was near the end of the season. There was only a handful of games left. And the game was called at the end of the first or second period -- it might have been the second. But they just couldn't handle -- the tear gas bombs were going off and they had to forfeit the game. And the win allowed Detroit to move into first place. The sad part for Montreal was Maurice Richard was leading the league in scoring and he never won the scoring title and he lost that that year. And they played the seventh game and lost it in Detroit. And he didn't have a home ice advantage and he got suspended, like you mentioned, for the rest of the regular season, plus the playoffs. And it was a tough scene. I don't know how I did it, but I ended up walking the corridors. And I think it was the son of the coach of the Canadiens at the time was Dick Irvin -- Dick Irvin Junior -- who later became quite a broadcaster, as you know. And I ended up in the Canadiens dressing room. I mean you had to go somewhere. And they rioted on the streets. I don't recall what I did after the game. I mean I didn't have a car or anything like that, but I got home. But it was a terrible time. I mean, we had blocks and blocks of damage done to them, to the streets in St. Catherine Street. But it was a tough memory.

CO: Do you remember it Ken?

KD: I have no firsthand memory of it.

CO: But it was a legendary time.

KD: And there are a lot of Quebeckers who became very well-known and prominent and influential in the 1970s in the independence movement that would trace some of their real beginnings, of their passion to that time.

CO: I have in studio with me here in Toronto, Scotty Bowman -- hockey coach extraordinaire -- who is the subject of a new book by Ken Dryden, who is also in the studio with me. The book is "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other." And Ken, I want to ask you about the way you structured this because it's very interesting that you would get him to pick in his view the best eight NHL teams of all time. And not just the teams, but the year -- the season that they were the best. And then actually put a competition together between those teams. Why did you decide to do it that way?

KD: Because I wanted to make Scotty a coach again. I think that part of the reason why there hasn't been a book really about Scotty before is that usually sports books and books from coaches are about stories. And they're after dinner speaker stories. And Scotty doesn't experience in stories. He doesn't really think in stories. He's too practical. He's a coach. And so you don't find an answer in a story. You know that's out of the past. He's got to respond to the moment. And so instead of focusing on what he's less comfortable with -- put him back into a place where he is most comfortable. Make him a coach. And so then to pick those top eight teams, because again he's seen them all, you know, up close entirely. But then set them against each other. I mean what easily happens when you're telling stories is 'This player...oh, he's great. And great. Great. Great. Great.' Well, not everybody's great. Some are a little greater than others. And "The Rocket" didn't score every game. Gordie Howe was lousy at times. Bobby Orr's teams lost often. And so what happened then? What is it that you as a coach would do to understand those players to bring out the best -- but at the same time, if you were coaching against them, what would you do? How would you defeat them? So let's have matchups. And ahead of time, I didn't want to know who he was going to pick. But then I don't want to know who's going to win. You know, ahead of time. I want to be able to ask you questions about each series as it's happening, as if you're behind both benches. And the thing that was really interesting through it is that, again, we're talking about these teams initially, and I'm trying to guess as to who he's likely, you know, selecting here and who's going to win these series. And I was right about 60 percent of the time.

CO: Well, you warned the reader to say, don't flip to the back and find out who won. And of course I did. And if you hadn't said that, I wouldn't have done it Ken. You just set that up. But we are not going to tell our listeners who does win this series because it is fun to get there. But were you at all concerned that Scotty wouldn't choose your team, that he wouldn't choose the magic 1976-77 season with the Montreal Canadiens when you were the goalie and he was the coach? Did you have a moment when you thought he wasn't going to choose that one?

KD: Absolutely. Like I wasn't sure. I thought that that team would be one of the eight. After that, I didn't know. And so we went chronologically through the years. You know through the teams of the 40s, 50s, 60s, and then 70s. And we skipped -- I mean it was because of me, wasn't because of Scotty. We went then to the 80s, 90s, and up to the present. I didn't want to talk about our team at that point. I mean at a certain point you know you develop a stake in what it is you've done and you're proud of what has happened and you don't want judgment cast on what it is you've done. And it's easy to kind of -- it's not easy, but it's easier to dismiss somebody else's judgment. It's pretty difficult to dismiss what Scotty says and thinks about the team and about me.

CO: Why did you do that? Because you couldn't say no to Ken?

SB: Well, no. What we basically -- or what I did, I saw these teams play in person -- a lot of them. And then to back it up, it wasn't like I picked a favorite team. I had a system. So it wasn't that difficult. Once you backed it up with what you saw...

CO: It wasn't based on emotions, or feelings or your gut...

SB: No.

CO: It was about the stats and numbers.

SB: Yeah. Like analytics are big now. And I mean the standings you go by the standings, we know that. So you know the playoff records are different now than they are then because they play more games now. So it was a lot of fun rehearsing. And it was mostly the team, though. What did the team do? So I didn't find it a puzzle.

CO: We are going to go back into the CBC archives -- go back 42 years to the 1977 Stanley Cup series, Game 4. You must remember this Ken. And Canadiens are facing the Boston Bruins in that series. And we're going to play this tape.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER 1: Over to Ratelle. Defense! Blocked by Dryden.

ANNOUNCER 2: And Dryden has lost his mask. The penalty has expired. Goal!

[Crowd cheers]

CO: I'm so sorry to do that to you Ken. But of course if people can't hear -- it's a bit muddy -- but you lost your mask. Boston scored against Ken. And we heard the applause, the screaming, the organs. I'm sorry, but what does that mean to you? That moment?

KD: I don't think you're that sorry, Carol.

CO: I'm trying hard.

KD: But it is what happens with goalies that almost all the highlights are something you let it.

CO: Well it all ends well.

KD: That's right. I remember that really well because I think there's only twice in my career that I lost my mask. And there was a play in the crease and the players were jostling and somebody bumped into me and my mask flew off. And it's a very odd feeling to suddenly be there without your mask on. And the irony of the whole thing is that it felt good. I loved the feeling of coolness on my face, and I wanted to demonstrate how, in fact, it didn't matter whether I had a mask on or not. That I was going to continue to play and a mask was irrelevant. And then, of course, he scored. To make it seem very relevant.

CO: But I think the Habs went on to win that, right.

SB: And in today's game, the rule is when the goaltender's mask comes off the play stops.

CO: Is that right?

SB: Oh yeah.

CO: What you asked Scotty to do Ken was to really assess the strengths and weaknesses of these eight teams. And he didn't spare you. I mean you got to know your strengths and weaknesses from his point of view. What was it like for you to have Scotty give it to you straight like that?

KD: Well, it was almost the last conversation we had. And I knew that I had to ask the question, but I avoided asking until the very end. I was nervous. I mean I was really...I was nervous. And I was nervous before some of the games and series that involve the team that I played on. And I was nervous for what Scotty might say.

CO: We are just remembering though that you did have some pretty blunt things to say to Ken way back in the 70s too. I mean 72-73 season -- didn't you get accused of being a diva Ken?

KD: Scotty would never have put it that way. But he would put it in a way that was even harder to take. I mean we would refer to it now as acting like a diva. But then it was after watching me kind of have mini tantrums, after I'd let in goals and slamming my stick to the ice and scowling. And finally, Scotty, after I'm sure a few weeks of this he sort of had enough and just came up to me in practice one day and said, do you think you're too big for this team? Do you think you're too good for this team? And essentially he was saying, you know, that look, I mean, all of those gestures you're making, essentially what you're saying is that you have a standard that is different from anyone else's. You have a need to win different from anyone else's. You are unwilling to accept certain things in a way that others are willing to accept them. And that you're just too good in that way. Is that what you're saying? And that was hard to take. That was a real ouch moment.

CO: Did you need that?

KD: I'm sure I did. I didn't think I needed it at the time. Scotty can answer you.

SB: Now they have goalie coaches so it's pretty reasonable now.

CO: But is it not true, though, that Ken you refused to hug Scotty back after you won that?

KD: I mean it wasn't an obvious not. I mean Scotty was hugging everybody and he hugged me. But I just didn't hug back. That's all. But it was an important moment. The thing that's quite remarkable that I find is that we shared seven seasons together. We won five Cups during that time. You go through a lot in seven seasons. And in the atmosphere of Montreal, there is never a quiet day. There's never an easy day. And those are seven years of potential misunderstandings. Things not going right. All of that. There are two moments that I can remember where we had bad moments. One of them was that. And one was after the 1979 Challenge Cup in New York. And it was the NHL All-Stars against the Soviet All-Stars. And I played the first two games. We won the first game. We lost the second game. And Gerry Cheevers was chosen to play the third game. And I was crushed. And I remember, you know, the couple of days later, we're back in Montreal and I go into Scotty's office and I just sort of say to him, you know, like, what about this? And he was really good because what he could have said was that well you know everybody just sort of came to a joint conclusion and decided to make the change. Instead he said that but then he also said you know, as the coach, I could have overridden them if I felt absolutely certain. But I didn't override them. And so that was the other moment in seven years -- and that's pretty good you know, of having only two moments like that, that I can recall.

CO: I'm just watching Scotty while you tell that story. And I don't think he's regretting it. I mean do you...

SB: Those series are very difficult for everybody. You're not coaching your own team for sure. And the people -- what they never realized is when we were playing those games against the Russia team -- national team -- they're a machine that's played together for maybe 11 months of the year. And we're a bunch of all-stars that are put together without practices. And it wasn't an excuse. But it showed to me the difference between the team game and an all-star game you know. And that was the tough part. And even in the 72 series which ended up in our favor -- Canada's favor -- people never realized the advantage and disadvantage that the two teams had.

CO: The Soviet team had over...

SB: Oh sure. And we learned a big lesson. But fortunately, we did come back. And Canada won that series.

CO: I'm learning a lot of why you are such a legendary and the greatest hockey coach ever at this. Scotty Bowman here with me As It Happens -- I'm speaking also with Ken Dryden about his book "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other." And Scotty just to move ahead -- the pages, the calendar fall -- you left Montreal for Buffalo in 1979 after seven years there, it seemed you were done with coaching. You'd already been inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Then in 91 in Pittsburgh you changed your plans. What happened?

SB: Well, we had a misfortune in Pittsburgh. I was doing television for about three years after I left the Buffalo team. And I had an opportunity to go to Pittsburgh as a director of player personnel. They had a wonderful coach that they just hired at the same time the late Bob Johnson. And I had no intention of ever coaching again. My family was still in high school in Buffalo. I could pretty well dictate my own schedule. I could stay -- I didn't have to be there very often. I was there only in the playoffs. So it was a perfect I thought the chance to go back into hockey. And then all of a sudden through misfortune, Bob got cancer and couldn't coach the second year and passed away during that season. So it was tragic for everybody.

CO: Such a tragic story.

SB: It was. It was. They asked me if I would be the interim coach. When the season started we wanted to keep the job available. You never can tell -- he was battling a brain tumor and we wanted to keep the job. We didn't want to hire some career young guy coming in. You know, because we said he's going to come back and coach -- trying to stay positive. Unfortunately, around Thanksgiving, US Thanksgiving time, he passed away. But I had no intention of being a coach at all. I wasn't prepared for it. But I did that first year -- I stayed the course and tried to repeat as much. I mean I changed my coaching style because I wasn't expecting to be back in a coaching career again. And that's what happened.

CO: Stanley Cup also happened.

SB: We had a great team and they rallied behind. It is very similar to the time in Detroit when we won the first cup in 1997. Another tragedy, Vladimir Konstantinov -- one of our top players, a Russian player -- was in a limousine accident. He was injured very badly, couldn't play anymore. And they dedicated that season to believing that we would win for Vladimir. So there's a lot of motivation but the wrong kind. You know you don't want to have that.

CO: And so you began part two of a coaching career. But you still continue even to this day. You work as an adviser for the Chicago Blackhawks. As I think Ken mentioned, your son Stan, named after the Stanley Cup...[Laughter] Do you miss it? What do you miss about being behind the bench?

SB: It still comes back though. During the wintertime I still go to -- when I'm in Florida I go to all of Tampa Bay Lightning games. And they're a wonderful team. But even when I'm not at a game and there's no game to go to -- around 7 or 7:30 because you've been behind events so many times, you know, especially in the wintertime, the summer is different -- but it's funny the clock works in your mind and it's 7 or 7:30 you're thinking, well, just about time to go behind the bench. It's crazy, but it happens all the time. But I like to watch youth hockey too. I got four grandsons and one grand-daughter now that are playing in youth hockey. But I still go to as many tournaments. I really like to watch players that haven't even been drafted. I'm always inquisitive as a coach, but I'm trying now to 'who are the stars coming up?' You know, like you see them and then these are -- and even the ones that don't become draft picks...I like to watch Hockey.

CO: It's in your blood to be sure. Ken I'm glad that you were able to finally lure this man out and get a book out of him. Well done.

KD: Well, thanks. It was really a pleasure to do.

CO: All right. And thank you, Scotty Bowman, for coming and for a hockey life like no other. Thank you both.

KD: Thanks, Carol.

SB: Thank you.

KG: Former NHL hockey coach Scotty Bowman, who was behind the bench for nine Stanley Cup victories more than any other coach in history -- and Hall of Fame goaltender Ken Dryden, who is the author of the new book "Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other."

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December 26, 2019 Episode Transcript

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