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The AIH Transcript for February 11, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: Her condition remains conditional. There is celebration as a women's rights activist in Saudi Arabia is released from prison, but her family friend warns that if Saudi officials feel like locking her up again, they will.

CH: Fighting for her right to fight. The Supreme Court refuses the Catholic Church's latest attempt to stop an abuse survivor from re-opening her case. She says she still wants officials held accountable for leaving her vulnerable to a predatory priest.

CO: Splitting the vote. With a covid outbreak underway, Newfoundland and Labrador delays Saturday's provincial election, but only for about half it's ridings in the provincial NDP leader says that's a half baked idea.

CH: Scratching the surface. An Anishinaabe artist says the florid colours inspired him to make scratch and win crossword tickets out of thousands of beads and use them to tell a story about his roots.

CO: Formal recognition. After being left with a closet full of Jeopardy outfits, Alex Trebek's son decides to donate his late father's wardrobe to a charity that helps underserved Americans find jobs.

CH: And unmixed messages. Canada's new chief of defence staff tweets an encouraging message of support for diversity in the military, along with a discouraging photo of eight military leaders who are all white guys. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that thought they were supposed to wear uniforms, not be uniform.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Saudi activist Loujain Alhathloul is out of prison, but 'not truly free,' says family friend

Loujain Al-Hathloul Release

Guest: Uma Mishra-Newbery

CH: Loujain Alhathloul is out of prison, but she's far from free. After 1001 days incarcerated in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi women's rights activist is now at her family home, but still on probation. She was in prison since May 2018 on vague terrorism related charges. Ms. Alhathloul says she faced torture there when she was sentenced recently. Saudi authorities counted time served and released her this week, but now she faces strict probation conditions. And Saudi officials could send her back to prison, seemingly at any time. Uma Mishra-Newbery is a family friend. We reached her in Geneva, Switzerland.

CO: Uma, first of all, how are you feeling this week to know that your friend Loujain is no longer behind bars?

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: It is definitely an incredible feeling of relief, knowing that she is at home, knowing that she is no longer in prison, knowing that she has been released, knowing that she is not facing torture or another hunger strike or psychological torture, knowing that she is with her family and that she's able to see her sisters and her brother and her nephews. It's an amazing feeling.

CO: And all the things those things you just mentioned, that the torture, the hunger strikes, the denial of access to her family, all of this is what she is now free of. But she is still not truly free, is she? What are the restrictions?

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: Loujain is still under a five year travel ban. She faces three years of probation, during which time, Loujain could be re-imprisoned for any perceived criminal activity. And this is from the same government that arrested her and illegally imprisoned her. Additionally, Loujain is now labelled a terrorist for the rest of her life. This is not freedom. It is simply a release from prison. The fight is still very much in full effect.

CO: Her family is giving a press conference today and talking about some of the things that she has gone through. As far as you understand, how are Loujain's, spirits?

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: Loujain, is doing OK. You know, Alia shared in this press conference that, you know, Loujain asked everybody how they were. You know, this is a person that has spent 1001 days in prison. And so for her to turn around and ask how everybody is just shows her fortitude in all of this. She has lost weight, you know, and this is, of course, because of the fact that she has been on two hunger strikes and she has been tortured. But, you know, from what the family has reported, the very first thing that Loujain did upon her release was to go to the supermarket and buy ice cream. [chuckles].

CO: And you can see in the photo that her sister posted after her release, a smile lights up her face. Do you have any sense, has she talked about or do understand the degree to which she suffered quite brutal conditions in prison?

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: You know, she, of course, is not able to publicly speak about anything. But Walid, Lina and Alia yesterday posted on their own Twitter accounts that one of the questions that they always asked throughout this nearly three years of imprisonment is why Loujain never told them about the torture when it was first taking place, which was very early on in her imprisonment in 2018. And this is when Loujain was in the secret prison. And the response that they learnt is because Loujain couldn't actually talk about it. There was someone apparently standing, you know, literally behind her waiting to electrocute her if she said anything about the torture. So, you know, we can only ascertain that the conditions were very intense indeed for Loujain.

CO: You mentioned that this last time in prison was for violating terrorism laws. Can you tell us what exactly it is that she was accused of having done?

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: The charges against luging have always been absurd, using her Twitter account, talking about male guardianship because she used to post videos on Kek, which is a now defunct social media platform. Her charges also include collaborating with the U.N. and CEDAW Committee. This is basic level activism.

CO: What she was agitating for, very basic rights and freedoms for women and girls in Saudi Arabia. And her activism came as Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was presenting himself as someone who is modernising the society who was opening up the rights for women. So why does Loujain pose such a threat to the regime?

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: Any time you have a government such as Saudi Arabia that is saying that they are going to reform and yet they are arresting so many of the people that are fighting for these reforms, it is very clear that reform is not actually what they want.

CO: We should point out, Loujain studied in British Columbia and UBC. She began much of some of her activism there. Canada spoke out against her treatment and the treatment of other activists. Canada was punished for it. They withdrew the ambassador. They suspended all kinds of trade and flights to Canada. So what is it that has persuaded the regime to release Loujain?

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: It would be difficult to not say that the change of administration in the United States has provided a much needed catalyst. For the jeans release, nothing was really happening, you know, in terms of international pressure in the past few years and with the change of administration, there has been a renewed sense of holding Saudi Arabia accountable. That being said, you know, there is a feeling that the international governments definitely have not done as much as they can do. There is still so much more scope to hold Saudi Arabia accountable. There are so many more avenues to apply that pressure. And so what we would urge for international governments to really consider is what does doing business with a government like Saudi Arabia mean for them?

CO: The White House is saying today that it reminds the Saudi Arabia that it still regards it as an important ally in the war against terror. Does it worry you that maybe the United States, this is a symbolic gesture to have helped Loujain and that that's that they're not going to push for her true freedom or that of others?

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: We know that many are seeing this as, you know, a victory. But we are very clear within the campaign and the family is very clear that this is not freedom for Loujain. What we are calling for and what we are demanding is bringing those who tortured Loujain to justice, including Saud al-Qahtani, dropping all of the charges against Loujain, lifting the travel ban on Loujain and the entire family, paying reparations to Loujain for her illegal imprisonment, and finally holding the local newspapers in Saudi Arabia accountable for the intense defamation campaign that they ran against Loujain. So we still have a long way to go until we reach unconditional freedom for Loujain and for all. Saudi activist.

CO: Uma, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye bye.

UMA MISHRA-NEWBERY: Bye.

CH: Uma Mishra-Newbery is a family friend of the Alhathloul's. She's in Geneva, Switzerland. Loujain Alhathloul was released from prison this week in Riyadh, but under strict conditions. You can find more on this story on our web page at CBC.ca/AIH.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

NL Election Date

Guest: Alison Coffin

CH: The coronavirus has cut Saturday's election in Newfoundland and Labrador in half, a fast moving covid outbreak in St. John's has had election workers resigning en masse. So this afternoon, the province's chief electoral officer announced that in-person voting is going to be delayed in 18 of the province's 40 electoral districts. But the conservatives and the New Democrats say that Liberal leader Andrew Furey could have avoided this mess simply by calling the election some other time. Alison Coffin is the leader of Newfoundland and Labrador's NDP. We reached her in St. John's.

CO: Ms. Coffin, do you think this election should proceed?

ALISON COFFIN: I think that we should put it on pause. However, I do not think that we can legally do that. I think it's very important that we put the health and safety of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador first. We also need to give them the opportunity to vote. But unfortunately, I think due to a whole pile of legislation, we're not able to do that.

CO: You said elsewhere that you think that Andrew Furey the liberal leader, premier, should have avoided all this by simply not calling this election in the first place. But how could he have known that you'd have this sudden outbreak in Newfoundland right before the Election Day?

AC: If we think this through just a little bit like he's known since August that he had to call an election, we gave an opportunity in the House of Assembly to move the election to a fixed date in October. The whole House had passed that. So there was an opportunity to move it. But if you think through it a little bit sensibly, we know that in the winter time it's much more likely to have a second spike. We know that in Newfoundland and Labrador our flu season happens later in the year, so it only makes sense that our covid, any second wave of covid would happen a little bit later in the winter like it is right now. There's also a number of other things that would have been very appropriate in terms of timing our vaccine rollout would have happened. If we were queuing in lines, we would have been able to do that a little bit better in the spring of the year than we are right now. So simple things like that could have been considered. But then the other things that could have been considered, if he wanted to ensure that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador knew what they were voting about, they could have waited until after the Moya Greene report came out, which is the premier's economic recovery team report. But we also could have had a sense of what the preliminary budget would look like. So in terms of timing, this is very poor timing for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

CO: And now there's even stranger timing, isn't it, because it's split and half of the province will and will vote now and the other half will vote, well later. Not exactly sure when, but maybe at least two weeks. You mentioned the Greene Report, which comes out at the end of February, I believe. And so this is a report that some are saying, including the leader of the progressive conservatives, Ches Crosbie that some people may be reading, some people may know that and vote accordingly and others will not have seen it. So how is it fair that half the province is voting now, the other half will vote with different information?

AC: Well, I unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see the Greene report before all the special ballots have come in. But remember, we've already had a series of special ballots that have been submitted already. So the people who voted last week would have voted in a very different set of circumstances. But the other thing that's happening is the special ballots that have been extended is for the entire province. So everyone does have equal opportunity to request a special ballot and then everyone will have to have those special ballots in by the 25th of February. So people do have a little bit of an option to be able to vote when they feel that they have as much information as possible and they can delay their vote.

CO: The chief electoral officer, Bruce Chaulk, though, says that not everyone can vote in the mail in ballot, that some will have to vote in person. He doesn't exactly explain why. So it's possible that you have three levels or layers of voting. Those who are voting now in traditional ways. Those who are voting mail in ballots. And we'll have different knowledge and different timing and those who will have to continue to the polls at some later date. So it does seem like a bit of a mishmash, doesn't it?

AC: It absolutely does. And I'm going to add an extra layer of complication on that, because I think the people who voted already with the mail in ballots, they voted under one set of circumstances. Then you have your in person voting happening today, your mail in ballots that are for the 25th and moments ago, I think shortly before I got on the call with you, I got another notification from Bruce Chaulk saying that there may not, in fact, be any in-person voting on the Northeast Avalon. Remember, we had 100 cases today. So that's scary for everyone. That's the highest case we've ever had. And a lot of people are very concerned for their safety. So I think that sentiment is, really going to put a damper on actual in-person voting?

CO: Well, can you say then why? PC Leader Ches Crosbie says this election is unfair?

AC: Oh, absolutely I can. OK, I understand the sentiment for sure. However, I don't think that we have the legal tools to be able to change what is happening right now. I mean, certainly I know a number of options have been considered, but as far as my understanding of those options are, we're very limited in terms of how we can fix this. Once the premier decided on the election, we were set on a path that is going to be very, very hard to change. So I think certainly we may see some constitutional challenges come as a result of this. One of the things that perhaps could have done. But, you know, again, hindsight is 50/50 or 20/20, not 50/50. My goodness...{Laughter]

CO: Might be 50/50 at this point too. Everything's up for grabs I'd say.

AC: You are right. You are right. But whatI do know is prior to deciding on when the election was going to happen, perhaps Andrew Furey could have gone and done some consultations with the chief electoral officer. And imagine what some of these scenarios were. And my understanding is he did not do that. He chose to call the election without consulting with Mr. Chaulk. And look where we are now.

CO: Now, if Saturday's voting goes ahead, well, how do you proceed from there? How will you continue to campaign? Will you? What happens after an election only happens in some places and you have to keep going.

AC: Well, I've had some preliminary discussions with Mr. Talk about that. And my understanding is it is OK to continue campaigning.

CO: And we're not going to know the results of the ones where they have voted.

AC: No, no, no. They've got to keep all of the results. I don't even think the ballots are being counted until all ballots are cast.

CO: OK, here's my idea. I think someone should call the Queen.

AC: Oh, yeah. You know what? I think someone may have already called the Queen, but I don't have a direct line. I would love to be able to do that.

CO: So someone should do that. She's got to sort this out, anyway. It's great to talk to you Ms. Coffin and thank you. Good luck.

AC: Lovely chatting with you as well. Thank you so much for taking the time.

CH: Alison Coffin is the leader of Newfoundland and Labrador's New Democrats. We reached her in St. John's.

[Music: calm piano]

Alex Trebek Suits

Guest: Matthew Trebek

CH: You don't have to be a fan of Jeopardy to understand its greatness, even a casual viewer knows that when that theme music hits and the late Alex Trebek struts onto that dated set, something special is about to go down. And let's be honest, Mr. Trebek didn't just sound the part. He looked the part the man could dress. Over the years, the Canadian game show host accumulated a closet worth of outfits. And after his death last year, his son Matthew came up with a way to honour his father's legacy and help those in need. Mr. Trebek donated dozens of his father's suits to The Doe Fund, a charity that provides social services and vocational training to Americans who need it. We reached Matthew Trebek in New York.

CO: Matthew, most of us can picture your dad, cue card in hand, looking sharp as a tack behind that Jeopardy podium. How would you describe your father's style?

MATTHEW TREBEK: How would I describe it? Obviously very sharp and well dressed as so many people thought, and I think when I remember thinking about how my dad was dressed around the house and whatnot, all of his clothes had holes in them. They were all Hicken, tattered T-shirts and jeans and stuff. He would wear clothing until it just physically could not be won anymore. And that was around the house. But then obviously when it was time to go out or at any event or if he was taping or anything, he would be able to, you know, have a complete 180 with his wardrobe. And he would always look, you know, very, very sharp and very well dressed. He would critique my clothing. You know, he would always give great advice. And then all was saying this in a T-shirt with holes in it. [laughter]

CO: It's hard to believe that he did that, because if you, I mean any search online, you can find hardly a single picture that doesn't have your dad wearing a really sharp suit and a tie, just looking quite dapper. So that's quite a contrast.

MT: Yeah it is. I mean, he was very, very dapper when and I feel the same, like if I ever look at photos, if he's always very well dressed and very sharp.

CO: You left then with a closet full of your dad's wardrobe, right?

MT: Yes. Yes.

CO: How did you hear about The Doe Fund and come up with the idea that it should disclose to go there?

MT: Well, The Doe Fund is actually pretty close to where I have a coffee shop in Harlem, New York. And so The Doe Fund has one of their locations only a couple blocks further north, my partner and I, we ran a soup kitchen out of a church that's right across the street from us. And one day a lady named Julie, came from The Doe Fund to check out what we were doing. So that's how I kind of got introduced to The Doe Fund. And then my relationship with Julie grew. And so when all of this happened, it kind of just seamlessly fit together that the work that they do with these gentlemen coming out of, you know, pretty difficult situations made. You know, it just it made sense for us.

CO: So. So what do they, what does The Doe Fund do with clothing like this in this program?

MT: So with suits and the ties and shirts that were donated, they'll go to the men who will then probably wear them on job interviews, you know, not having a suit to go into a job interview, I think. Well, I think having a suit, you know, gives a person a certain sense of belonging and, you know, kind of can uplift their attitude in general, feeling towards the interview. So that's that's mainly what they're going to be used for.

CO: That's just extraordinary. I mean, to put on a suit that was worn by Alex Trebek and to go into a job interview, anyone would feel that they're on top of the world in that outfit. Right.

MT: I hope so, yeah.

CO: Can you describe the donation, what was in what you gave to the Doe Fund.

MT: It's something like 300 ties. I think there were about 15 full suits, maybe something like 40 to 50 shirts, dress shirts, and then, a collection of you know, sweaters and a little bit more, some casual wear, as well as and then several belts as well.

CO: When you think of it, can you imagine someone wearing your dad's clothes and going into that job interview?

MT: Well, I think if you're coming from a place where you don't have a suit or have not been able to to go into a job interview, feeling, you know, trying to feel your best, I imagine that this suit would hopefully help let you achieve that feeling a little bit easier. Being that it is one of my dad's suits, you know, if they were a fan of the show, that might add a special. You know, an extra special feeling towards that as well.

CO: What do you think your dad would make of this donation?

MT: I think he would feel really good about it. I think that, you know, my dad did a lot for others. I think that this would be something that was right up his alley. I think the idea that it's giving some gentlemen, those who are going through a second chance and trying to help them out, get off their feet. And in this sort of way, you know, it's a little bit different than somebody might just hope. But I think that he would feel pretty good about it.

CO: It's so true that your dad helped so many people. And after he passed away, we heard from many listeners about how much Alex Trebek meant to them, former contestants and fans and people who learnt how to speak English watching Jeopardy or learnt how to connect with a new culture by watching the show and watching your dad. What do you think it is about your dad that made him connect with so many people around the world?

MT: I think he was, my dad was very down to earth. And I don't think he ever viewed himself as anybody that was, you know, different than anybody else. I mean, I can remember even when it comes to working around the house or doing, you know, my dad did a lot of construction type work rather than being somebody who was just hiring somebody else. He would always want to work alongside somebody, and if that was one of the things about like electrical work or plumbing or anything, like he would always be right next to somebody and not space himself out other than that. So I think just being very grounded and very interested in what other people are doing and with their own life.

CO: Matthew, appreciate you telling us about your dad.

MT: Of course, of course.

CO: Take care.

MT: Thank you.

CH: Matthew Trebek is the son of the late Jeopardy host Alex Trebek. We reached him in New York. You can learn more about the Doe Fund and see photos of some of Mr. Trebek's dapper outfits on our website, CBC.ca/AIH.

[Music: calm music]

Admiral Art McDonald

CH: George Orwell was crabby about what he called the not un-formation that is he was not un-crabby about it to point out its ridiculousness, he wrote this sentence "a not un-black Dog was chasing and not un-small rabbit across and not un-green field". And he's not unwrite, not un-formations are clumsy, especially when clear language is not unimportant. Exhibit A: today, Adm. Art McDonald, Canada's chief of defence staff, tweeted, "Conversations on diversity, inclusion and culture change are not incompatible with our thirst for operational excellence. Diversity makes us stronger. Inclusion improves our institution". And it's clear what he was trying to say. It's just that saying conversations about those subjects are not incompatible with a good military is a not un-ineffective way of putting it. But the accompanying photo is the real problem. Seated around a large table are eight military people in masks. All of them men, all of them white. Like that photo, replies to that tweet were not diverse. And after hours of criticism, the admiral admirably tweeted, "I hear your comments and I take them to heart. It's true. The leadership of the Canadian Armed Forces is and historically has been predominantly male and white. That needs to change". He's not incorrect and may be working to change, that small picture will change the big picture as well.

[Music: wind instruments sounds]

Part 2: Supreme Court - London Abuse

Supreme Court - London Abuse

Guest: Irene Deschenes

CH: The Supreme Court of Canada has decided that the Catholic Church will have to contend with Irene Deschenes. In the year 2000, Ms. Deschenes settled a claim against the church's London, Ontario diocese for sexual abuse she suffered as a child at the hands of a local priest. At the time, the diocese insisted that it had no prior knowledge of the danger the priest posed. But when Ms. Deschenes found evidence that the church had been warned, she went back to court. A judge agreed to reopen the case, and Ontario's Court of Appeal agreed. So the church asked Canada's top court to hear its appeal. This morning, the Supreme Court said no. We reached Irene Deschenes outside London, Ontario.

CO: Irene, you have been pursuing justice for what happened to you for a very long time. So what does news from the Supreme Court mean from you today?

IRENE DESCHENES: Well, I think I was pleased because the diocese was not successful in appealing the Ontario Court of Appeal decision. But at the same time, I'm still in litigation with Catholic Church.

CO: The Catholic Diocese of London released a statement today. They said that "we felt strongly the facts of the case deserve to be presented in court. And our appeals against your suit were motivated by this belief, as was our obligation, that we had to be good stewards of our resources". What does that say to you?

ID: It says, it sounds like the victims just want money. And so they're being stewards, good stewards of the resources by not paying out any victims or being careful with the money. But really, what it says to me is that, victims pose a threat to the church, the finances of the church, which is ridiculous because a lot of times the payouts are made through insurance companies. And secondly, the church, the Catholic Church has a lot of money.

CO: But is not just money that you're pursuing?

ID: No, it's justice. But, you know, having fought this battle for almost 30 years, there has to be a monetary reward attached to that. For all my hard work and for all the pain and suffering that I've been through over all these years.

CO: You settled the claim with the church, with the diocese in 2000 for the abuse you suffered as a child at the hands of Father Charles Sylvester. That same priest went to prison. Just about five years later, five, six years later, after pleading guilty to sexually abusing 47 children in parishes across southern Ontario. And he died shortly after in prison. So now, what the Supreme Court has ruled is that you can reopen your case. What are the facts that you say that the diocese misrepresented?

ID: Well, Carol, I remember at the time my lawyer and I were in mediation and the diocese claimed that they had no knowledge of Sylvester's proclivities prior to the late 1980s. And I kept saying to my lawyer, they had to have known because he's been doing it since the 1940s. And it's impossible for all those victims to stay silent for so long. But they kept denying and say they had no knowledge of his proclivities. So my lawyer said, you know, you have to settle because we're sort of at a standstill. And so that's what I did. I settled. And so when the police report came from the 1962 Sarnia, police report was "found" in 2006, then that proved that they did know. And so that's why I was able to reopen my civil suit. But of course, the Diocese of London appealed that to the Ontario Court of Justice. And the Ontario Court of Justice said, yes, I could reopen my civil suit. So they appealed that to the Ontario Court of Appeal, the Ontario Court of Appeal, said I could reopen my civil suit. So, they appealed that to the Supreme Court of Canada. And now the Supreme Court of Canada is saying, yes, I can reopen my civil suit. So I don't know. It feels a little bit like a delay tactic and it also feels really cruel.

CO: And what toll has this taken on you?

ID: Oh, such a hard question to answer, Carol, because it's just been a roller coaster ride, you know, litigation happens and then you wait years for the next purge and then so I get on with my life and then it rears its ugly head again. Then I have to deal with it again and go through all the emotional turmoil. And then, you know, nothing happens for a few more years or up to 10 years. And then it raises ugly head again. And then I have to go through the roller coaster of emotions and it's just always there. I just want it to be done with so I can move forward with my life.

CO: And if when you first came forward and said this priest had done this to you as a 10 year old child in the 1970s. Once you had brought that to the attention of the church, if they'd handled it differently from the beginning, do you think you think you'd be here now? Do you think you would have gone through all of this?

ID: No, absolutely not. And that's what we want. We want to be heard. We want to be believed. And we want to be treated with respect and empathy. And, you know, so what can I do? What do you need Irene? What do you need to help you heal? Instead of them always dictating what they think survivors need? Here's a payout for you. This is what we're offering you go away or here's two years of counselling. You should be better. Now, stop bothering me for more money for counselling. I mean, this term is so deeply entrenched in one because this is a Catholic priest. I mean, life now is the foundation of my life. I have been in and out of counselling for the past 30 years and I don't go as often as I used to. I don't need to go as often as I used to, but it's still something that just eats away at your soul. And I don't think the church understands that either.

CO: The church's statement today, it said, we hope the resolution of these legal proceedings helps with the healing process for Ms. Deschenes. How do you respond to that?

ID: But it's not the end of the legal proceedings, because now I can... The courts have ruled that I can reopen my civil suit so that could take another couple of years. The end is near. The end is near for sure. If they engage in mediation with me, then the end is nearer. But if I have to take this to trial, I don't know how much longer that will take. It could be another two or three years.

CO: Have you ever had an apology?

ID: During mediation, Sort of. You know, it didn't feel very sincere after during mediation, Tony Daniel said we're sorry it happened to you sort of thing. So it didn't really feel sincere. And I think by that it was too late. So that was some eight years after I'd gone to the church that only through mediation did I get an apology on that first day when I went to go see Father Trombley at the rectory. And if he had said to me that say we're sorry this happened to you, it should never have happened and this is what we're going to do to help you heal, I wouldn't be talking to you today.

CO: Irene, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

ID: Thank you, Carol. I appreciate speaking with you as well. Take good care.

CO: You too. Bye bye.

CH: Irene Deschenes continues to pursue her case against the Catholic Church's London diocese. We reached her near London, Ontario.

[Music: guitar instrumental]

Mona Seif - revisiting Arab Spring

Guest: Mona Seif

CH: Mona Seif had other plans, the human rights activist took part in the Arab Spring revolution in Egypt in 2011. That uprising saw the ouster of the country's longtime leader, Hosni Mubarak, 10 years ago. Today, Ms. Seif And many other young activists like her were filled with hope that day, hope that Egyptians would soon enjoy more freedom and greater rights. Instead under the military regime that later took over in a coup, her family has been a constant target. Her brother Alaa and her sister Sanaa, both outspoken democracy activists are in prison and Ms. Seif now spends her days advocating for them and other political prisoners. Carol spoke with Mona Seif, who was at home in Cairo. Their conversation will be part of a special program on the tenth anniversary of the Arab Spring, that we'll bring you on Monday. But tonight, here's an excerpt from that interview.

CO: This is your life now, isn't it? I mean, this was, you should be finishing your degree. You should be doing other things. You should, your family should be together enjoying what you do as a family. And yet this is what you do full time, isn't it?

MONA SEIF: Yes, I'm actually a researcher in science. I was supposed to be enrolling and working on a PhD right now, but when Alaa was rearrested again, even after finishing five years sentence and he was, the night of his arrival to prison, he was tortured. He was stripped of his clothes. He was beaten up. He was blindfolded and threatened. So it also felt like it's not just a repeat of what happened. It felt like a much tougher dose of injustice we are about to deal with. I suddenly realised I cannot try to maintain and juggle my life and everything with what's happening. And so because of the regime, because of the brutality, I have become a full time activist. You know, the Sisi regime jails anyone. It's not just people who are outspoken about human rights conditions like me. We have doctors who are in jail because they spoke about Corona related problems in hospitals and lack of supplies. We have Youtubers and and tick tock influencers in prison for violating family morals because they danced or sang, like it's just very hard to find ways that guarantee you won't end up in prison under Sisi unless you are directly associated with him and his people.

CO: At what point did you realise that Egypt was now actually, as many people have said, a worse dictatorship than it was under Hosni Mubarak?

MS: OK, oh, I have an objection to that statement. I always say that. It is in a worse state. Absolutely. But sometimes when it's put in that phrasing, it makes it feel as if one is longing for Mubarak's time. And not just that this is entirely untrue, but also what we are living now is the legacy of Mubarak, the torture machine of state security, the the kind of politicisation, complete politicisation of the judiciary and so on. These are all things that started while Mubarak was in power. It's just a far more brutal and violent extension of it because the revolution was crushed and because the new regime now believes that they have to completely, completely squash any form of, not just opposition, but any form of a voice that does not completely align with their narrative.

CO: Mona, What gives you hope at this point, then? What helps you to carry on?

MS: OK, if you had asked me this three days ago, I would have said that I no longer operate on hope. And it's quite frankly, what I've been feeling for more than a year now. But yesterday, because Sanaa I was in court, she asked if she could speak to the judges and she spoke. And all of a sudden I was filled with immense love and pride and hope. Maybe hope isn't the right word, but gratitude. For me, it was such an empowering thing to see that my younger sister who is 27 years old, was speaking very bravely and very openly, and anyone who knows her or doesn't know her would know for sure that she's telling the truth. In the same court, that witness, the false testimonies of officers and policemen a couple of weeks before against her. She owned all of her positions, all of her posts. She did not claim that she did not write what she wrote. But at the same time, she also spoke directly to the judges and to the state security prosecution about how she does not understand why is Corona turning into an excuse for them to crush political opposition rather than an opportunity for everyone to come together. Because we face we share the same risk together. She was amazing. It was very, it was such a proud moment for me. But it also made me feel like I'm not hopeful, but sort of certain that we are so on the right side we have to survive this. And it just felt right.

CH: That was Egyptian activist Mona Seif speaking with Carol. We'll bring you more of that interview on Monday as part of an hour long special on the Arab Spring and its legacy a decade on.

[Music: guitar instrumental]

Anishinaabe Beading Show

Guest: Nico Williams

CH: Some of Quebec's covid restrictions have been lifted, and that means the curtain has been lifted on Nico Williams' new exhibition, The Anishinaabe artist's work is on display at Montreal's musee d'art contemporain (Museum of Contemporary Art). The pieces look like Scratch and Wintek. It's ready to be torn off a roll. But Mr. Williams has reproduced the brightly coloured Bingo and mots caches tickets using thousands of tiny beads. And the word games on the tickets have given the artist a chance to incorporate a message. We reached Nico Williams in Montreal.

CO: Nico, I'm thinking there must be a story about how you became inspired, artistically inspired by scratch and win tickets.

NICO WILLIAMS: Well, the original ticket was found in the snow outside of Concordia University, and it was just glowing. And I was so excited to see it. And I had some beads in my studio that were of the same colour because I'm really attracted to working with various colours of beads. So I was excited when I saw it glowing and I was like, I'm going to bead this object.

CO: Okay, wait, so you saw a scratch and win ticket. Just, like lying on the ground.

NW: Yes.

CO: And the colours... [interrupted]

NW: Literally the one that's in the mac, like the bingo ticket.

CO: Not many people, when they see a scratch win ticket anywhere, that they see it as being a thing of beauty, but you did.

NW: Absolutely. It was just glowing and I was so attracted to it. So the colours reminded me of regalia found on the powwow trail.

CO: And so you decided you had to bead it?

NW: I'm like, I'm obsessed with colour. So if you come to my studio, you'll just see, like a wall of beads of all these glowing different colours.

CO: And you've done this with bingo scratch and wins with mots caches, which is like hidden words and crossword things. Can you describe them?

NW: Oh, absolutely. So with the pandemic, it gave us time, like my studio team and I, to sort of stretch the tickets. I wanted it to look like the…. Do you remember the rolls of tickets at convenience stores? The teller would sort of pull them and then you would have the ticket.

CO: I vaguely remember this.

NW: And I was just thinking of sort of like keeping them all together, sort of like we're all in this lottery together.

CO: Can you just describe just the lengths of them and what they're actually, what you depict on those?

NW: They're the actual size of the ticket. I think I did about 15 or 16 of them, and they're all sort of attached and they all have different colours. So like the bingo tickets are glowing, like the original scratch ticket I had found. And then I started to play around with vibrant colours. So we have like this beautiful poppy orangey red, this blue and this like glowing yellow. But then since we had more time to work on, like the installation for the exhibition, I wanted to start focusing on more elegant colours, like the vibrant colours are beautiful, but for the mots cachés, they started to get more rich and deep in colour.

CO: Now, you're not just working with the colours of the scratch and win tickets. You're working with some messages in it, too. There's other things going on that do play with the crossword ones, the mots caches ones. Can you tell us a bit about some of the things that you can read onto these cards?

NW: Well, I got to put history into it. It's a very small nine by nine grid on each crossword. So the very first one started with the Ipperwash crisis with Dudley George, because I wanted to communicate that message for a while. So having this grid, I was able to go back to my experience, you know, on the res, in the 90s. And I wanted to make an artwork with that story. And then I started to look at other moments, these hiccups, I guess, with indigenous and settlers. I put like Walleye to represent sort of the Walleye wars in the U.S. and questions like hunting and fishing rights, just pulling out words and sort of weaving them into the surface of those like crosswords. So it educates and it's for the viewer to go experience those works and they'll be able to pull their own messages from those tickets.

CO: So many things going on in those works, I just wonder how how does this connect? How does this work that you're doing with these cards and turning them into beadwork, how does it connect with traditional beadwork, with the bead work of your ancestors?

NW: Well, I think that just goes back to looking at sort of finding plants on the ground, you know, like medicines, traditional medicines and how they would bead those floral sort of pictorial works. I have found, I don't want to say a piece of garbage on the ground, but something like that and then communicating that it is there. You know, there's like a history there with like the bingo. And, you know, cultural differences are totally like I'm sure many aunties can relate to going to bingo, you know, it's like a history there, too. So it's playful and also bead work.

CO: Do you have a personal connexion to the scratch to win tickets to ever get them just in order to maybe scratch and see if you can win?

NW: Oh, well, like, my mom will get me them at Christmas. I'm sure, like, a lot of, like, families will give it out at Christmas. It's just like I don't I don't buy them personally ever.

CO: You just find them on the sidewalk and bead them.

NW: Yes, I do. I'm just like always looking around and being inspired by things. So it's just like seeing it glowing. I was like, oh, there it is.

CO: Nico, it's great to talk to you. And many people look forward to seeing your exhibit. Sounds really terrific. Thank you so much.

NW: Oh, thank you. All right.

CO: Bye.

NW: See you.

CH: Nico Williams is an Anishinaabe artist. We reached him in Montreal. And if you're in Montreal, you can catch his exhibition at the Musee d'art contemporain.

[Music: creepy piano music]

Talkback - Mark

CH: Usually we talk about houses with good bones and usually it's figurative, but yesterday we talked to a musician named Prince Midnight whose guitar had good bones, literally because Mr. Midnight had constructed the guitar out of the skeleton of his late Uncle Filip. It was a fitting tribute to a man who shared his love of heavy metal with his nephew and who has since become the most metal guitar of all time. After we aired Carol's conversation with Prince Midnight, Mark Rennison called Talkback to share how much he dug the story.

MARK: Hi there, my name is Mark Rennison and I'm calling from Collingwood, Ontario. My six year old daughter and my two year old son and I were listening to your story about the guy who turned his uncle's skeleton into a guitar. And I thought, pretty cool story. And then my daughter said, hey, guess what dad, when I get older, I'm going to turn your skeleton into a guitar. So I'm glad you share that story, but I'm a little bit nervous about the way my daughter's looking at my bones. Thanks for the great show. Rock On, I guess.

CH: Thanks for calling, Mark. Sorry. Sorry about that. And if you have any bones to pick with us, you can always call Talkback at 416-205-5687 or email us at aih@cbc.ca, and you can find more on Prince Midnight's skeleton guitar on our web page at CBC.ca/AIH.

[Music: percussion instrumental]

Quebec premier twitter pic

CH: It was a seemingly harmless tweet that was almost three weeks old, but to Parti Québecois leader, Paul St-Pierre Plamondon, it was damning evidence. So he called Quebec Premier Francois Legault out for posting a picture of himself snowboarding in his yard. Here's Mr. St-Pierre Plamondon talking about the tweet and explaining why he thinks the premier has prioritised PR over a substantive response to covid-19.

PAUL ST-PIERRE PLAMONDON: They're very much ahead in terms of communications, in terms of looking good, in terms of having the right message to tell everyone that they're doing an awesome job, that they're a lot ahead like that they have prepared.

JOURNALIST: And what do you mean by that? Can you give an example? Are you talking about their ad campaigns or the way they control their press conferences.

PAUL ST-PIERRE PLAMONDON: On top of my head, like this, Francois Legault doing snowboard in his backyard, by the way, with his children in the backyard, which is a violation of public health rules because they're not living in the same household. Francois Legault didn't come up with that on the corner of his breakfast table saying, oh, this morning I feel like doing a, no no. This is planned. You have several contracts that are given to publicists who are imagining ways of bringing the message of the government, that is very well prepared. We see it.

CH: That was Parti Québecois leader, Paul St. Pierre Plamondon criticising Francois Legault for a snowboarding photo he says violated covid restrictions. But today, Premier Legault shot back, saying snowboarding in his yard is no violation and that, in fact, it was Mr. St-Pierre Plamondon who crossed the line by mentioning his kids. Speaking of which, the premier uses some language that you might prefer your kids not to hear.

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: Not only my family. I think that all politicians have to be careful with families. I think it's so tough for our children when their father are hurt about some comments. S***, please don't get the children involved.

CH: That was Quebec Premier Francois Legault, who has demanded an apology and said the snowboarding photo was no PR stunt. It was taken by his son.

[Music: upbeat country guitar]

Part 3: Pirate Skeleton Found

Pirate Skeleton Found

Guest: Barry Clifford

CH: Black Sam Bellamy, also known as the Robin Hood of the Sea, was thought to be the wealthiest pirate in history. He was known for his firm, yet Democratic leadership of his men, but even more so for his hatred of corrupt people who robbed the poor. By the time Samuel Bellamy died in a shipwreck in 1717, he was worth millions. And ever since, he's been a figure of fascination for archaeologists, including Barry Clifford. Back in the 80s, Mr. Clifford discovered Black Sam's famous ship, the Whydah, along with possible human remains. And on Wednesday, he announced another significant discovery. Barry Clifford is an underwater archaeologist. We reached him in Truro, Massachusetts.

CO: Barry, what is your latest discovery from this shipwreck?

BARRY CLIFFORD: Well, we've recently discovered that there are numerous bones encapsulated within these concretions that have been brought up from the shipwreck, and it's our intention to, you know, to remove the bones from the concretions and to, you know, to do DNA tests to find out who these people were.

CO: Right. And what are your suspicions as to who they might be?

BC: They would have been part of the pirate crew. And, you know, there were 140 pirates on the ship and 102 of them had washed ashore and were drowned. So we believe there was, you know, a couple of dozen pirates that perhaps that were still on the ship when it turned over.

CO: Right. And so does this include the remains of, I guess, the legendary pirate Black Sam Bellamy?

BC: Yeah, it definitely occurred because there was, you know, the locals. Bellamy had spent time in Wellfleet with the ship wrecked and his girlfriend, lover, who he didn't realise when he left for the Caribbean, had been condemned as a witch. But her family owned a local tavern or a tavern in town. And, you know, people would have known Bellamy if they had seen his body on the beach. Nobody ever we've never heard any indication that he was located.

CO: So his remains have never been discovered.

BC: No.

CO: Can you tell us about this legendary pirate?

BC: Legend has it that he came to Cape Cod around 1714 or 1715, and his intention was to get a crew so that he could go to the Caribbean to salvage the Spanish treasure fleet, the 1715 fleet. And when he came to the Cape, he met this young woman named Maria Hallett. And subsequently, when he left for the Caribbean, you know, they said goodbye. He promised to return someday with a rich treasure. And, you know, a few months later, she had Bellamy's baby, illegitimate baby, and she hid the baby in a barn. And the straw caught in the baby's throat and it choked. And legend has it that because of that and some of the other things that she did, she was tried and convicted as a witch. In the meantime, Bellamy was in the Caribbean and he decided not to continue looking for the Spanish treasure fleet, but he decided to turn pirate and he became very successful at that. And after robbing, you know, over 45 ships, he headed back to Cape Cod, where he was going to rendezvous with Maria Hallett. Subsequently, after robbing several more ships, he wrecked on the back side of the Cape and in a place called a graveyard. And, you know, from there, there's all sorts of stories about what happened to Maria after that happened.

CO: But with him. But that's as much as we know about Samuel Bellamy. But he's been compared with Robin Hood. So what kind of piracy was he up to?

BC: He was elected by his crew as captain and he was very fair, treated everybody equally, including a third of the crew were of African origin, most of whom were former slaves. And on board this ship, the Whydah, these people, these outlaws, a third of whom were of African origin, escaped slaves, were experimenting in democracy and they were equal. They had an equal share in the treasure and they had votes. And every man was judged by what he contributed to the Brotherhood, not by the colour of his skin.

CO: And how much of the Whydah. Have you been able to reclaim and to bring into your museum?

BC: We've brought up and catalogued with identification numbers over 200,000, well over 200,000 artefacts and again, the Whydah, They robbed 54 different ships. So you're talking about a ship that had the cargoes and the valuables of 54 ships on board. So it's unprecedented in terms of how much material is on board this ship, you know, including, you know, coins and treasure.

CO: Plunder basically.

BC: This is the great irony of the story. The money that they were robbing is money that paid for slaves, paid for them, paid for their families. So the slaves are robbing money that actually paid for their families and friends. And of course, that's capital crime. It's OK to sell people. But if you are. a slave and escaped. You can't steal the money that paid for your family, or yourself and that's that's the irony of the story.

CO: And just finally, do you believe the bones that you have recovered this latest, that they may be Samuel Bellamy's, but they may be those of those enslaved sailors? You know, I should say, from the formerly enslaved sailors?

BC: We don't know. We don't know yet until we bring them out and identify them. But once we do identify them, it's our intention to return them to the proper location, wherever that might be.

CO: Wow.

BC: In other words, return them to their family, you know, like, with Bellamy, we might associate Casey Sherman went to Scotland, to Bellamy's hometown with the idea that if we did, we had found the Whydah. I mean, Bellamy, we would return him to his local graveyard. And they were, the town was extremely, you know, excited about that.

CO: Barry, that's an extraordinary story. And I really appreciate you telling us about it. Thank you.

BC: Oh, you're quite welcome.

CO: All right, take care.

BC: OK, bye.

CH: Barry Clifford is an underwater archaeologist. We reached him in Truro, Massachusetts.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Chase Young -Police reform

CH: Chase Young thought he might grow up to be a police officer. His father spent 22 years with the police force in Arlington, Virginia, and Chase majored in criminal justice at university, but he chose football instead. Seems like a good choice. He was just voted the NFL defensive rookie of the year. But now he's thinking about policing again and why it needs to be reformed. This week, Mr. Young testified before the Maryland House Judiciary Committee about a police accountability bill. It would ban chokeholds and restrict no knock warrants. It would also repeal a decades old statute that offers protections for police officers accused of wrongdoing. Chase Young told the committee that as a black man who grew up in Maryland and despite his family's connection to law enforcement, his parents still fear for his life.

CHASE YOUNG: Passing this bill will be great, just being from here and just seeing everything that is going on. Up until now, you know, it's for me. Obviously, this is different, you know, when you go into a 7-Eleven and, you know, you might see a policeman and, you know, you get nervous. I can say that myself, just me. Every time I see the police just growing up, it's like if I'm driving past police, then I already have like a tactic as to where, you know, I'm looking straight forward, making sure my seat belt is on just every, I'm doing everything I have to do not to get pulled over because at this stage I don't know what can happen. And my mom is scared for me. My dad, just just everybody and you know. I feel like people are just tired of just everything that's been going on, and that's really, you know, why I feel like we have to pass this bill or should pass this bill, just not even obviously safety, but mental health, because it definitely makes, you know, parents worry, just people worry. Just in general. Thank you.

CH: That was NFL player Chase Young on why he supports a statewide police reform bill in Maryland.

[Music Blues Instrumental]

Braille Mountain

Guest: Tyson Rettie

CH: When Tyson Rettie started losing his vision, he knew it would affect the way he skied, but he had no intention of letting it stop him from skiing. And now he's helping other people with vision problems to ski as well. Recently, Mr. Rettie started the Braille Mountain Initiative, a service that opens the backcountry to skiers who are visually impaired. He'll take his first group out this spring. We reached Tyson Rettie in Invermay, B.C.

CO: Tyson, for many people, the idea of skiing in the back country without the full use of their vision is a pretty scary thought. So how does it feel for you?

TYSON RETTIE: I'll say it was a little bit scary to begin with, but it's amazing. It's exciting. And for me, it's an opportunity to forget about my visual impairment, to put myself in these wide open spaces with no other people around and just ski freely and independently, as though I don't have a visual impairment. So it's amazing.

CO: We do know that people who are visually impaired. They do ski, there are trails and it's in the Paralympics as well. But this is very different, what you're doing right. This backcountry skiing is not the same kind of activity, is it?

TR: No. And yes, you're right, there are lots of blind skiers, lots of very strong blind skiers, and that's who we're catering towards. We're looking to get those that have kind of exceeded the challenges that exist within the resort environment into a new environment to challenge themselves. And yeah, it's different because we're getting people to the top of the terrain. They're going to ski under their own power. We're not using helicopter, snowmobiles. We're not using chairlifts. There's nobody around. It's just us in this vast open terrain. It does take quite a bit of effort to get to this terrain. But we're also able to provide people with that free, independent experience. Like I just mentioned, you know, we can put blind people in a scenario where they are in massive open terrain, large, large glaciers, and there's nothing for them to hit for 500 metres. So they don't need to be micromanaged by a guide. We can just say to them, hey, you've got nothing to hit for five hundred metres and they can just get after it.

CO: And so they're completely alone and they're coursing down that slope. How does that feel? What's the sense of freedom that that probably brings?

TR: You know, for me personally, like I said, it's an opportunity to kind of forget about my visual impairment. It's the most normal skiing experience. I'm not having someone talking in my ear about, OK, you know, now we've got a little bit right, a little bit left, things like that. I'm just looking at my own pace, making my turns wherever I feel like. And so that's what it's about.

CO: At what point did you start to lose your vision?

TR: It started in 2018. Over the course of about two weeks. I lost most of the vision in my right eye. And then a few months later in the summer of 2019, same sort of thing, a couple of weeks and I lost almost all the vision to my left eye. So what I have now is central blind spots where I don't see anything at all, but I have a bit of remaining peripheral vision. It has deteriorated as well. However, there is enough peripheral vision that, you know, when I walk around my home, you know, I don't bump into things right.

CO: But you had done a lot of skiing before this happened. Did you at any point think that you wouldn't ski again?

TR: No, definitely not. No, I knew that I was always going to continue skiing and always continue skiing in the backcountry. It's what I love to do. And I was never going to give that up. However, when the vision loss started in my left eye, that's when I knew that I was likely going to have to, you know, transition away from my career as a ski guide. Once you lose vision in both eyes, that's a very big life change. And you got to look at taking a new path.

CO: But you have found a new path, haven't you? I mean, this idea that you started the Braille Mountain Initiative, which, first of all, this tells us a bit about the name and what it means.

TR: Yeah. So the name kind of came from a common phrase you might hear skiers use when skiing in the Alpine in the backcountry. If you get caught in a whiteout and you've got to ski through this massive open white terrain or you can no longer ski anything, people would often say they're skiing by braille. And that's kind of where the thought process started from.

CO: And who are you trying to attract into this?

TR: So what we're looking for is, you know, strong blind skiers. This is not a program that teaches blind people how to ski because those types of programs exist at almost every ski resort in Canada. There's lots of programs that'll teach you how to use a blind person. So we're looking for those that have already already come up through those programs. They are very strong skiers, have a strong level of fitness and are ready to take on new challenges.

CO: And you will guide them.

TR: I'll be part of the guide team.

CO: But we do require certified ACMG or Canadian Skyguide Association ski guides to move these people through the training and manage the variety of mountain hazards that will be exposed to. And of course, those individuals have to be sighted.

CO: At what point do those fully sighted guides step away? At what point are they done what they need to do and then you're on your own.

TR: We'll all work together to move uphill through the terrain where we're going to provide that real independence is in the downhill and it'll be on a sort of a pitch by pitch basis. Right. So. As I mentioned, we will try and set our participants up with a scenario where they can ski, you know, 500 metres as much as possible without having to be micromanaged by someone. And then we'll regroup at the bottom of the pitch, decide where we need to move from from there to once again provide that experience so there'll be periods of independence. But to move from one spot to another, they'll be working quite closely with guides.

CO: And we spoke with one of your participants, an avid skier. He says that he has waited for decades for an opportunity to go back to backcountry skiing. So it was on his bucket list. So how do you feel knowing that you're making this possible for people?

TR: Yeah, it feels awesome. That's definitely the goal here. That would have been, Mark, you had spoken to. And he's very much the type of person that we're looking for, someone that has been longing for this opportunity. And he is definitely a very strong skier. He's in great shape. He really checks all the boxes and his level of enthusiasm is really quite high for this. This is something he's been waiting for for a long time. So that's what it's about, is connecting with people like that and trying to make dreams come true.

CO: It sounds like a lot of fun and very liberating, Tyson, and thanks for telling us about it.

TR: Yeah. Thanks for having me on the show. I really appreciate it.

CO: Bye bye.

TR: Bye.

CH: Tyson Rettie is a visually impaired skier. He has started a new service called the Braille Mountain Initiative. So other visually impaired skiers can experience backcountry skiing. We reached him in Invermere B.C.

[Music: folk song instrumental]

NB Heritage Plaque

Guest: Brittany Mackenzie

CH: In Fredericton, New Brunswick Heritage District, there was a plaque on a house informing passers by about a notable one time resident. It read, "This house with its Scottish Dormers was occupied by the sister of Sir Charles G.D. Roberts, herself a respected writer, which is a neat start, but also the end. Despite identifying the dormers as Scottish, it did not identify the mysterious sister of Sir Charles G.D. Roberts. Her name was Elizabeth Roberts McDonald. And that oversight didn't seem fair to the new owner of the house, Brittany Mackenzie.

BRITTANY MACKENZIE: We noticed immediately when we first viewed the house before we wrote an offer on it. We you know, it's just interesting to see plaques on houses, right? So we had to look at it and it was really clear that something was missing. It was the name of the woman it was dedicated to. And immediately it just sort of stuck out as sexist. And so we decided once we got an accepted offer on the property, that once it closed, we would contact the Fredericton Heritage Trust and try and get that changed.

LAUREN BIRD: And what was their response like?

BM: They were fantastic. Like they were really responsive, immediately agreed and recognised the problem and worked together to come up with some new wording and were very, very receptive to changing it. So it was great.

LB: Have you been able to learn anything about Elizabeth Roberts McDonald?

BM: I have and you know, what the Fredericton Heritage Trust actually dropped off a newspaper article that was written about her in 2005. And so they talked about how she was, you know, a poet, how she was a fiction writer. There was actually a poem that was written by her inside the house. So she was a poet, a fiction writer. She was also a strong leader in the suffrage movement at the time. So there was a lot of really interesting things about her that, you know, obviously I had no idea about before moving into the house. I was aware who her brother was, Charles, but I hadn't really learnt much about her until I actually got a chance to move in and Google it.

CH: That was Fredericton, New Brunswick, homeowner Brittany Mackenzie talking to CBC reporter Lauren Bird. Ms. Mackenzie got the city to change a heritage plaque on her house that notes, one time resident writer Elizabeth Roberts McDonald but names only her brother.

[Music: pop instrumental]

Toilet art

Guest: Barney Smith

CH: Porcelain toilets happened to make great planters, but to Hank Robar, that's just a bonus, he's really using them to flush out his enemies. In 2004, Mr. Robar wanted to protest what he saw as unfair zoning laws in Potsdam, New York, where he lives. So he started filling toilets with posies and wrapping them in ribbon. And soon enough he had a whole toilet garden on his lawn. The village told Mr. Robar the gardens got to go. The federal courts got involved. But after 16 years, Hank Robar is finally relieved. Last week, Potsdam relented and told him he can keep his seats. That toilet art story reminded us of another, the late Barney Smith's toilet seat museum. Unlike Mr. Robar's toilet garden, there was no ulterior motive for Mr. Smith's art project. He simply loved collecting toilet seats. Here's part of his conversation with Carol from October 2017.

CO: Hello, Barney.

BARNEY SMITH: Hello there.

CO: How are you?

BS: So, you're the host of the show?

CO: I'm the host of this show.

BS: Oh, good. Good to talk to you about my toilet seat collection.

CO: But now, Barney, why are you selling your collection?

BS: Because I'm 96 years old and I'm getting ready to leave this whole world.

CO: No.

BS: I've seen a lot of changes in my 96 years.

CO: You know, and some of those changes are actually on toilet seat covers, aren't they, that you painted?

BS: Oh, yes. In fact, my wife and I's last anniversary that we celebrated on our 74 wedding anniversary, I've got that on a toilet seat. And that's the last one that I've put.

CO: And what's on that toilet seat?

BS: It's me kissing her goodbye.

CO: On the toilet seat.

BS: On the toilet seat.

CO: Well, how many toilet seats do you have in your museum?

BS: 1322.

CO: Now you've got licence plates. You've got tributes to all the states and two Canadian provinces too, you got some... [Interruption]

BS: Five of the ones out of Canada, the ones that I can get my hands on the licence plates. I put them with the Alberta, with Saskatchewan, British Columbia. I've got about a half a dozen of them.

CO: I think you got Manitoba.

BS: Yukon.

CO: Yukon, right.

BS: Up in Canada. Yeah.

CO: And so you've got those on your toilet seats you've got. But you know what? There's a really weird one you've got that looks like a swarm of hornets and hornets' nests.

BS: Hornets nest is the one that has the yellow jacket, the little [inaudible] hornet. And it stung me on top ahead. I said out, put you on my toilet seat. So I put a wasp nest on a toilet seat.

CO: Now, can anyone I mean, can anyone actually sit on one of these toilet seats and do their business?

BS: Can they do, what?

CO: Can they do? Can you sit on the toilet seat, can you actually use one of these toilet seats?

Oh, there he is taking off. You may fall through the toilet if you sat down a plank. I call them Plank.

CO: Barney why toilet seats? I mean, why not dinner plates or doors or something? Why are you painting on toilet seats?

BS: Because I'm a master plumber retired.

CO: You were a plumber?

BS: A [inaudible] electrician, retired. I'm a minister, retired. I'm so tired because I'm almost gone. It won't be long. I'll be gone. I've got to get rid of my toilet seat collection. I've got 1322 toilet seats and they're all catalogued. And I've got the book right here in my hand.

BS: Now that has got No one is my dog tags number one. Number 500 is dogs. That's the one that I was supposed to quit but I didn't. I've been in the doghouse ever since.

CO: You told your wife you're going to quit at five hundred.

BS: Yes, that's my dogs. But I've got some 500. [beep] I'm hitting the button again, back on the speakerphone.

CO: OK, yeah.

BS: [inaudible], I'm gonna lose you there. Yeah, I'm still here. I can't hold this telephone up to my ear without hitting a button or two. It's a portable phone.

CO: OK, I'm going to let you go. But just tell me, what does it cost? What does someone have to come up with in order to buy your collection?

BS: I'm going to let that be whoever is interested in purchasing it.

CO: OK, well, we'll see if anybody in Canada or one of our listeners wants a toilet, a thousand toilet seats with your art on it.

BS: Over a thousand three hundred and twenty two in my museum.

CO: All right. Well, we'll tell everybody how they can see your toilet seats, Barney. And I hope you have many more years ahead of you in spite of what you're saying. And good to talk to you. Thanks.

BS: Well, I'm so glad to get to talk with you. And I want you to come and see me if you, what part of Canada are you from?

CO: I'm in Toronto, I'm in Toronto.

BS: Toronto. We went to Toronto and went on the train and we went right underneath the hotel and got on the escalator and went right up in the lobby of Toronto. But it is the queen, Queen Elizabeth, is it?

CO: That's in Montreal. Yeah, yeah. Montreal. Anyway, Barney, it's great to talk to you and good luck with your museum.

BS: All right. Thank you so much. Give me a call sometime and see how things are going all right.

CO: We'll do that. Thanks.

BS: All right. But you have to have a good time now.

CO: You too. Bye bye.

CH: That was the late Barney Smith, creator of the Toilet Seat Art Museum in San Antonio, Texas, in conversation with Carol in 2017.

February 11, 2021 Episode Transcript

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