Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2020

The AIH Transcript for July 20, 2020

Hosts: Duncan McCue and Chris Howden

DUNCAN MCCUE: Hi, I'm Duncan McCue, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I’m Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

DMC: Shaken and stirred. A protester in Portland, Oregon, tells us he was picked up and driven away in an unmarked van, all by agents who declined to identify themselves. And he's not the only one.

CH: Containment strategy. It's been more than six months since a commercial jet was shot down in Iran, killing 176 people. Now Canadian investigators are getting access to black boxes that might yield some answers.

DMC: A better tomorrow. In his final days, Congressman and civil rights leader John Lewis told a friend and colleague the Black Lives Matter protests had given him hope for the future. James Clyburn tells us how he hopes to make good on that promise.

CH: Shot boosters. The early results are in. And an Oxford University vaccine trial is looking good. We'll revisit our conversation with one of the scientists behind it.

DMC: Timber Timbre. A Newfoundland man uses a pile of old lumber to build a guitar and discovers in the process that the wood is from a centuries’ old shipwreck.

CH: And beans there, done that. Smugglers concoct an ingenious plan to hide cocaine inside coffee beans. But their obvious homage to a popular action movie franchise on the packaging gets them caught and roasted.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that sees the whole coffee plan coming to a grinding halt.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Portland protester, John Lewis obit: James Clyburn, shipwreck guitar.

Partland protester

Guest: Mark Pettibone

CH: The mayor of Portland, Oregon, says it's time for U.S. President Donald Trump's so-called "personal troops" to leave his city. Mayor Ted Wheeler was referring to federal agents recently deployed to Portland. This weekend they used tear gas, pepper spray, and batons, as the weeks-long protests against police brutality continued in the city. But protesters say federal officials have also been taking another, even more disturbing tack. They say unnamed agents dressed in camouflage have been throwing people into unmarked vans. Mark Pettibone says it happened to him last week. He's since been released. We reached Mr. Pettibone in Portland.

DMC: Mr. Pettibone, what does it feel like to be in Portland right now with federal agents cracking down on your city?

MARK PETTIBONE: You know, it feels like an invasion. It's odd because during the day, if you were to walk around Portland, downtown even, near the justice centre, other than some graffiti, you wouldn't really know that our city was being occupied by these federal agencies. But then once evening comes around, a crowd gathers, and slowly it turns into what you are seeing in the videos.

DMC: Well, and police have been using tear gas and batons against protesters. There were clashes again this weekend. How did you come into contact with federal agents last week?

MP: I was at a protest. It started on the 14th and went into the early hours of the 15th. And this was at the justice centre and federal courthouse. And I was heading home around 2:00 with my friend, walking back to his car. It had been a relatively uneventful night in terms of clashes with the police and the federal agents. But as we were walking to my friend's car, a van pulled up in front of me, and I tried to flee, and they tracked me down and threw me into the van.

DMC: This was an unmarked van.

MP: This was an unmarked van, yeah.

DMC: Did you know who these people were who pulled up in front and jumped out of the van?

MP: At the time, I had no idea. They didn't state who they were with. There were rumours going around among the protesters that this was happening, and no one really understood who they were. All we knew was that they appear to be wearing military fatigues, and preying on individuals that were away from the larger crowd. So protesters were saying, you know, be careful, don't veer away from the crowd by yourself because you might get picked up like this. And, you know, I had no idea that wearing black and walking down the sidewalk on my way home would be grounds for what happened to me.

DMC: Did they give you any reason for why they were arresting you?

MP: Absolutely not.

DMC: So what happened when they took you into the van?

MP: So they pulled my beanie over my face and held my hands over my head. One officer patted me down and asked if I had a weapon, and I did not have a weapon. And they drove me into a large garage. And I didn't know who they were until, you know, they brought me into what I would later learn was the federal courthouse. There, it was kind of a series of facing walls and being patted down more and having my belongings taken. They took a photo of me with what appeared to be an iPhone, and cuffed my hands and ankles and put me into a cell.

DMC: I imagine this whole journey must've been very scary.

MP: Yeah, it was a. It's just such a kind of a cliche image of authoritarianism. And I I knew that this is kind of the logical progression of what's been going on, not only in Portland, but kind of around the world. And I just didn't expect it to hit home so directly.

DMC: And were you released?

MP: Yes, I was released without charges and no record of the abduction.

DMC: How long had you been in the cell?

MP: The cell itself was probably about an hour-and-a-half, the entire process was around two hours.

DMC: Customs and Border Protection say that they've been looking for suspects who had damaged federal property, who had assaulted some of their officers. That's why they were out making arrests. Were you questioned at any time when you were being held?

MP: They read me my rights and asked if I wanted to waive the rights to answer their questions. And I declined and asked for a lawyer. And at that time, they terminated the interview and left the cell area and then came back and released me. So, no, there were no questions.

DMC: The Department of Homeland Security has called protesters, quote, violent anarchists. And suggested that federal forces are needed in Portland to protect property, federal property. What do you make of that explanation?

MP: I think what's happening right now is political theatre. And I think these federal agencies are helping to make an example of Portland. And I think people should be wary of what's happening here, regardless of where they're from, because this is a dangerous precedent that's being set. This cuts across aisles, political aisles. And if we let it happen here, it can happen anywhere.

DMC: You describe an unmarked police vehicle pulling up and agents jumping out. The Department of Homeland Security's Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli has told CNN, and I'll quote here, that unmarked police vehicles are so common that it's barely worth discussion. What would you say to Mr. Cuccinelli?

MP: I would respond to that by saying this is not normal. And we cannot normalize what's happening here in Portland. This is again, this is authoritarianism in its most explicit form. And if we kind of brush it off and say this is an everyday activity, then who knows what's gonna happen next?

DMC: What do you think is going to happen next? I mean, the protests in Portland have been going on for more than 50 days, since George Floyd’s killing. Why have they gone on for so long in your city?

MP: I think Portland is, historically, citizens here are kind of ready to get out under the streets when big examples of injustices like George Floyd and Breonna Taylor's murdering occur. So, honestly, I don't know how long this will last. I don't see it stopping anytime soon, particularly now that federal agencies are here. And kind of instigating violence.

DMC: President Trump has said he's ready to send federal agents to other cities across America, across the United States. What's your advice to protesters there?

MP: My advice to protesters there is stay strong. These are fear tactics. And yes, it was terrifying what happened to me. But I'm going to get back out there and resilience is key. I think the hope is in the resilience of these protesters right now.

DMC: Thank you for sharing your story.

MP: You're welcome. Thank you.

CH: We reached Mark Pettibone in Portland, Oregon. And for more on this story, you can go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

John Lewis obit: James Clyburn

Guest: James Clyburn

CH: John Lewis's work was not done. The Democratic Congressman and Black civil right leader died on Friday of cancer. He was 80 years old. He'd spent decades working to create a more equal America. Starting in the 1960s, when he marched alongside Martin Luther King Jr. and others. His last public appearance was in June at Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. Here's what he said in 2016 about the need to address anti-Black racism.

JOHN LEWIS: Sometimes, I want to believe that we have made much more progress. [sounding defeated] But then I think, we’re not standing still. I think sometimes we’re just sliding back. The scars and stains of racism is still deeply embedded in American society. And I think what is happening, we can’t sweep it under the rug in some dark corner. We have to deal with it, all of us.

CH: That was Democratic Congressman John Lewis speaking in 2016. Congressman James Clyburn was a friend of John Lewis for 60 years. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

DMC: Congressman Clyburn, I'm sorry for your loss.

JAMES CLYBURN: Thank you.

DMC: As we just heard those words from John Lewis talking about America dealing with racism. What went through your mind?

JC: Well, I'm remembering listening to that last conversation we had on this subject, which is several weeks ago, just as we saw this breakthrough for Black Lives Matter. All of a sudden, we saw a diversity of effort taking place. That is the number of people and the types of people who got involved after George Floyds death. And we remarked as to how it reminded us of the 60s when we first got started with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. And then, all of a sudden, we heard this refrain, defund the police. And John and I both felt that that refrain, that headline, could do the same thing to the Black Lives Matter movement that burn, baby, burn did to what we call the student movement of the 60s. And so both of us spoke out against these kinds of headlines because we felt that it had the possibility of stymieing the momentum that was being built. And so John and I talked about that, not long before he went home for what turned out to be a hospice care. And I talked to him about… He passed last Friday, and I talked to him the Saturday before. And we talked on the phone. We expressed our love for each other. But then I knew that was probably last time I was going get to talk to him.

DMC: You were both protest organizers in the civil rights movement in the 1960s. As you were talking to him just a few days ago and watching the Black Lives Matter protests evolve over the past few weeks, How hopeful was he about whether or not this time there would be some concrete change?

JC: He was very hopeful. He even said to me it seems a little different this time, my brother. He always referred to almost everybody as my brother. [DMC chuckles] He said it felt different. And it felt different to me as well. It still feels different. I guess the proof will be in the pudding, and we'll have to see how things go for the rest of this calendar year. But right now, it feels that what's going on with Black Lives Matter is the kind of stuff we had back in 60 and 61, only to lose it in 1963.

DMC: Voting rights for minorities are very much John Lewis' legacy. He has called the 1964 Voting Rights Act the highlight of his involvement in the civil rights movement. That act got undermined in 2013 by Supreme Court decision. Democrats in the House of Representatives passed a bill last year to address this, called the Voting Rights Advancement Act. Congressman, you'd like to see that act named after John Lewis. What hope do you have that the Republican-controlled Senate will pass that?

JC: Well, you know, there's a little saying, the darkest hour of the night is that moment just before dawn. And though the prospects of anything like that passed the Senate today, it could be that moment just before dawn. I never thought I would see Mitt Romney walk the streets of Washington and looking in the camera saying, I'm out here because Black lives matter. Stranger things have happened. I think that what we've got to do is put forth the effort and see how it goes. You can't sit back waiting for the Senate to come around before you make an attempt. My mother told me one time, son, if you wait until you can see your way clear before you attempt anything, you'll never get anything done. And I've always remembered that. So though I may not be able to see it now, I think that what the House needs to do is go ahead and set up a new version of HR Four. And name it the John R. Lewis Voting Rights Act of 2020, and then send it to the Senate. And let's see what happens.

DMC: I'm struck by you painting this as the darkest of night for America. You are just months away from the November 2020 vote. What's at stake in this upcoming presidential election?

JC: Our democracy. This country is at an inflection point. This is going to be the most consequential election since maybe the election of Abraham Lincoln. If we do not demonstrate our total commitment to a democracy in this election, I suspect we will see the beginning of the ending of the United States as a great democracy.

DMC: You got up very early in the morning and posted a very moving sunrise tribute to your friend. Are there any other specific memories of John Lewis that stand out for you this week, as you remember your friend?

JC: Yes, John and I, a couple of years ago, were given the Harry S. Truman Legacy Award. The two of us shared that award. That night, on the stage with John Lewis, the two of us reminiscing about our days in SNCC, and our time here in the Congress together, that's the one thing I'm going to remember about John Lewis more than anything else. Our wives got to be great friends. He met his wife, Lillian, in the movement. I met my wife, Emily, in jail. Both of them were master-degreed librarians. And so John and I shared a whole lot together. Tomorrow, I will reach my 80th birthday. Both of us started in this movement as 20-year-olds back in October 1960, and maintained that friendship all the way up to now.

DMC: There are many commentators who are saying that America has lost the “Conscience of Congress”, but you've lost a dear friend. So thank you for sharing your thoughts on him.

JC: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

DMC: Take care.

CH: That was Democratic House majority whip James Clyburn in Washington, D.C. He was a friend of Congressman John Lewis, who died on Friday. And coming up later on the show, you can hear John Lewis in his own words, including as a guest on As It Happens.

Oxford vaccine trial

CH: It's early days — but Oxford University is injecting some hope into the conversation. Oxford's experimental coronavirus vaccine tests are yielding some positive results. People taking part in the trial had a strong immune response to the virus — and no serious side effects to the vaccine itself. Professor Andrew Pollard, lead author of a new study on the trials, told The Guardian that the results represented, quote: "a really important milestone." Unquote. In May, Carol spoke with one of Professor Pollard's colleagues, Adrian Hill, about the vaccine. Here is part of their conversation.

CO: I don't need to tell you how much anticipation there is of having a vaccine for this virus. Have you ever been under this much pressure to perform?

AH: I don't think so. There's never been as much interest in what we're doing, I think that the pressure is attenuated a little bit by the fact that there are so many vaccine programs. I think there must be ten in the clinic now. And there are two others coming along that are the same type of vaccine that we're using, another adenoviral vector. And our guess is that if our vaccine works, and we will probably be the first to finish, then other vaccines will work too. And we may be able to help those out. Because the real challenge that's logistically very daunting is just making enough vaccine for everybody who will want it, particularly if we finish first. And we're not talking about millions of doses. We're talking about billions of doses. And very importantly, our new industrial partner, AstraZeneca, has committed to that sort of capacity. So they haven't made a billion doses yet. You can't do that in a month, but they have reserved manufacturing capacity that would allow you to go to that scale if the vaccine works, which is fantastic.

CO: And what's the earliest sort of launch date for this? How early do you think you might have this vaccine available?

AH: Well, the earliest conceivable date would be a result in August of the trial. Then you need some regulatory approval for emergency use, which is faster than the standard approval for commercial use. So there might be vaccine doses, not huge numbers, maybe a million, maybe more in September. People are aiming for more than that in September. But I would take that as the earliest possible time. And that won't be for global supply. Global supply will be soon afterwards, but it will be this year, I think.

CH: Oxford University's Adrian Hill speaking with Carol in May about the school's experimental coronavirus vaccine. Today, the university announced that the vaccine had triggered a strong immune response in 1,000 volunteers.

[Music: Pulsing drums and synth]

Shipwreck guitar

Guest: Greg Fleming

CH: Greg Fleming may be an amateur guitar maker — but he's already in deep. It was just last year that the Newfoundland musician decided to try his hand at building an electric guitar for the first time. But while Mr. Fleming is relatively new to the process, it turns out the wood he's using is very old. In fact, it was salvaged from a 300-year-old shipwreck found in Renews Harbour, on the southeast coast of Newfoundland. We reached Greg Fleming in St. John's.

DMC: Greg, what does it feel like to play a guitar that's made of a 300 year old Shipwreck.

GREG FLEMING: Duncan, I tell you, it's absolutely unreal. [DMC laughs] It's got a really different sustain than any other guitar I've ever played.

DMC: Take us back to the beginning here. Where did you get this wood from?

GF: So about a year ago, I decided I was gonna make a guitar. I've played guitar for years, and I'm an engineer, actually. So I said, I think it's time to try to make a guitar. My family's got some roots on the southern shore, in Renews, which is about 100 kilometres south of the capital. And it’s a little small fishing village. So I originally was after a piece of wood, like out of a stage or an old wharf. And when I asked did my family, my uncle Jimmy Dunn, he said, I've got what I think are old shipwreck timbers up in my field, up with my fishing equipment. So I was intrigued. I went down, and I had a look. And the timbers were in horrid shape. I mean, there's grass growing over them, but they're big. So they're ten feet long, about eight or ten inches by eight or ten inches. And they had no steel in them. They were put together with treenails, which are effectively dowels, like pre-1800s, they used to build boats with no steel.

DMC: So there's no nails in them?

GF: No nails, no steel.

DMC: Did your uncle know where the wood was from?

GF: No, he didn't. So what happened was in 1994, they were building a government wharf. And when they dredged for the new wharf, they ended up pulling up these timbers. And they were going to send them to the landfill. So my Uncle Jim and my Uncle Doug said, you know, these look pretty unique. We might want to grab a couple of them and saved them from the landfill [chuckling]. So they did. And in 1994, they put them up in their meadow. And when I caught up with them 25 years later, which was last year, there was lobster pots and crab pots stacked on them.

DMC: So did your uncle have any idea when he grabbed it? He said he had wood that came from a shipwreck. Did he have any idea how old it was?

GF: He had no idea. I don't think anybody did, to be honest. So dried it out. And when I cut the first piece open, like I had some visions of what I wanted a guitar to be. And the wood was absolutely unreal. I sat there for about 20 minutes just looking at what it.

DMC: What’d it look like?

GF: So it's a type of an oak. I'm not sure if it's an English oak or a white oak yet, but you could see where there was knotts in the wood, and where the seawater had bled in over a lengthy period of time. And it turned the wood a black sort of colour. So it didn't rot the wood, the wood’s still really solid from a guitar building perspective, just gave it a really, really unique look, like a grain I've never seen before.

DMC: Greg, you ended up reaching out to the University of Ottawa, to try to help figure out where this wood came from, what’d they tell you?

GF: So they did carbon-dating, and it turned out the sample was really, really good. It wasn't contaminated, which was good. And it came back as mid-1600’s. The date they gave was 1661. And that was the year that that tree would have grown. So if you add on 30 or 40 years for the tree to complete, growing, chopped down and made into a boat, and then whatever the boat's life was back at that period of time.

DMC: How surprised were you when you found out how old it was?

GF: I was very surprised. I thought originally it may have been something from, you know, early-1900s. But something being that old, it's pretty, pretty amazing.

DMC: And do you know the story of the ship that was involved in this wreck?

GF: I do not. I have gone back, and before 1800, which is where this falls, it's a bit of a guessing game. I'm actually hoping to work with the University of Saskatchewan to do some dendrochronology work. And that will, hopefully, be able to focus in even closer on the year for the tree, and potentially even where the tree is from.

DMC: So you were working with this wood originally to turn it into a guitar, and you did that. You've called it the Tidebreaker.

GF: I did.

DMC: You're a musician yourself, and you've got guitars, you've got Gibsons, you got Fenders. What's this guitar like that you've made?

GF: It's like nothing I've ever played before. [said while laughing] So I've been playing guitar for about 25 years or so. I used to play in a lot of bands here in Newfoundland back in the 90s. And, you know, I like Fender sounds for some things. I like Gibson sounds for other things. So I built a lot of different traits from different guitars into this Tidebreaker. It's just a different type of tone. If you play the guitar, and you have your hand on the back, there's so much sustain in the wood. A chord will ring for about a minute-and-a-half. It's truly amazing!

DMC: So do you happen to have a guitar handy? Do you think you could play some for us?

GF: I do, indeed. I have one right here.

DMC: [chuckling] Okay.

GF: I’ll try and play something clean, I guess.

DMC: All right.

GF: So it has really... You can get really sparkly sounds out of this guitar. Like, a really sparkly clean. I'll see how this comes out.

[Sound: GF plays a melody on his guitar. And he is right, even through the condensed phone sounds, its really bright and sparkly.]

GF: So that's a really sparkly, clean. Or you can get also like a muddier, smoother sort of sound, too. Something like this.

[Sound: GF plays a new melody that is darker, but it is also very warm and cozy]

DMC: Cool! And I have seen the pictures and it's just a beautiful piece of work. You've still got some of this old wood. What are you gonna be doing with the rest of it?

GF: So I plan on making a series of ten of these Tidebreakers, for starters. There's not a lot of wood there. And I want to be very careful with it. I've got to two guitarists built. The third one is almost complete. The fourth one is started. They're a bit tedious, and it takes a little bit of time. But I'm going to build a series of ten. And, hopefully, get them into some key people in the music industry hands.

DMC: Good luck with the guitar building. Thanks for sharing the story.

GF: Yes, thanks for having me, Duncan. I very much appreciate it.

DMC: [chuckling] Bye-bye.

CH: Greg Fleming is a musician who recently crafted a guitar from wood from a centuries-old shipwreck. We reached him in St. John's.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Part two: TSB black boxes

TSB black boxes

Guest: Kathy Fox

CH: Six months after Iran shot down a passenger plane, some key audio from the plane's black boxes has finally been downloaded. But whether that audio is salvageable is another matter entirely. Canadian investigators were in Paris today, along with representatives from other countries, to supervise the downloading of two flight recorders. The audio could offer some hints as to what happened when the Ukrainian Airlines plane was shot down on January 8th in Tehran. Of the 176 people killed, 55 of them were Canadian citizens — and 30 were permanent residents of Canada. Kathy Fox is the chair of Canada's Transportation Safety Board. We reached her in Gatineau, Quebec.

DMC: Ms. Fox, the cause of the crash isn't really a mystery. I mean, Iran's military has admitted to shooting this plane down. So what answers could these flight recorders reveal to your investigators that you didn't already know?

KATHY FOX We know the what, we don't know the why, but there's also we want to be able to confirm the sequence of events. So the cockpit voice recorder, which was successfully downloaded today, should, hopefully, tell the investigators what did the crew know? Were there any concerns about security prior to departure? Did they receive any warnings? And did they have any inkling of what was about to happen? The flight data recorders, which I'm also pleased to say, have just had confirmation that they have been successfully downloaded and the data's available should indicate what happened to the aircraft just prior to and after the missile, the two missiles struck. So this gives more information to the investigators to create a sequence of events as to what happened. And then subsequent to that, of course, is to drill down and find out why it happened. What was the chain of decision making within Iran, within the military that led to an unintentional shoot down of a civilian aircraft?

DMC: I want to ask you about some of that data, but you mentioned the chain of decision making. I mean, Iran says it mistook this plane for a missile, an incoming missile. And one of the big questions has been why that airspace was even open during this period of such intense military activity. Is that a question that you want answers to?

KF: Absolutely. There are really three questions. The first one is, why was the aircraft shot down? The second it was why wasn't the airspace closed, particularly in the aftermath of Iran's launching missiles at Iraq? And then the third question is, not withstanding that, why did commercial operators, including Ukraine International Airlines, continue to operate following Iran's launch of missiles into Iraq? These are the same questions that came up in the context of the shoot down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, six years ago. And the lessons learned have not been fully implemented. And so we find ourselves again with these same questions.

DMC: When Iran says it mistook it for a missile, do you have reason to doubt that it was a mistake?

KF: Well, I think that going into any investigation, everything is on the table, and you don't take statements at face value. You really need to be validated. Unfortunately, this wouldn't be the first aircraft, the first civilian aircraft shot down unintentionally. Mistakes do happen. But I think that we really, the investigators really need to be able to validate that. And more importantly, find out why? What was the breakdown in the chain of command coordination and communication within the military that could have led to such a tragic mistake?

DMC: SoAll the black box is part of trying to fill in the pieces here. There really has been an international tug of war over getting access to that data. And we're only seeing the data coming from the black boxes being downloaded more than six months after the crash. Why has it taken so long?

KF: Well, I think there are a variety of reasons, and it's really up to Iran to explain the delays. Obviously, it would have been much better to do this sooner, closer to the time of the actual accident. I think Iran wanted to, if possible, do this work in Iran. And when that couldn't happen, then they looked at other countries. And, of course, COVID intervened as well. And even now, with the threat of COVID, some considerable restrictions and precautions are being taken by the BEA and by all the countries participating to reduce the risk of our investigators becoming infected.

DMC: To be clear, when you say BEA, what do you mean?

KF: Sorry, the Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses of France, which is the French equivalent of the TSB.

DMC: So how soon will you be able to actually hear the audio from the black box?

KF: Well, first of all, it remains to be seen if we'll be allowed to listen to it. And Canada, along with the United Kingdom and Sweden and some other countries, have a very limited role in this investigation because the protocols for who gets to do what are outlined in by ICAO, that's International Civil Aviation Organization, Annex 13. And that's what limits Canada's role to just being able to visit the accident site, which we did. We were the only country other than Ukraine to send investigators, safety investigators to the site, as well as receive factual information from the lead investigation agency, in this case, Iran. However, they have allowed us to go to do more than that. They've allowed us, our investigators, to view the wreckage, and they've invited us to the download of the recorders. So we'll have to see what happens going forward in terms of how much of a role they'll allow us to play.

DMC: Some of the families of the Canadian victims, they simply don't trust Iran's ability to investigate this crash properly. What reassurance can you provide them about this whole process?

KF: I can only say that, you know, the protocols that are generally being followed are international protocols, which all states that are signatories to the International Civil Aviation Organization, the convention that governs it, are supposed to follow. ICAO has an observer on the team. And their role is to make sure that everybody, not just Iran, but all the countries, comply with the protocols to be followed. But I do agree, and I do understand the concern of the families that this is a very unique type of accident. It's not, I hate to say, your normal type of aircraft accident. And so Annex 13 needs to be revisited and looked at in the context of these types of situations. And that's something the TSB is going to advocate for going forward. But it's not something that can happen or change overnight. It’ll require a long time and the agreement of the states that belong to, or that have signed on to the ICAO convention.

DMC: What are your biggest concerns about this process as you try to unearth the answers to what happened?

KF: Well, we want to make sure that the answers are not just to what happened, but also the why, that they go as deep as they can to find out the why, because that's really where you learn what needs to be done to prevent this from happening again. You know, we have a lot of experience, a lot of expertise, we've conducted and participated in many foreign investigations. We'd like to play a much more active role. And if we were, and we could, we think that would contribute to some of the transparency that is not apparent.

DMC: A final question for you, Ms. Fox. I mean, Iran bulldozed the site of that crash not long after it, before Ukrainian investigators arrived. So are the black boxes your only key to getting some more answers if everything has been cleared from that site?

KF: No, I mean, unfortunately, some debris was removed, but the main wreckage was taken to a secure area. And our investigators got a very, very good look at it while they were in Iran in January. We’d be preferable to have some of that undergo some laboratory analysis as well. But in addition to that physical evidence in the recorders, it really comes down to the interviews that will have been conducted, and the candor with which people will have responded that will allow investigators to get to the bottom of what happened and why.

DMC: Is it possible that the data that comes from this may be anticlimactic?

KF: Um, it's possible. It’s possible. Hopefully, not. Hopefully, it will fill in some of the gaps and allow everybody to know what happened in the last few minutes of that flight. But we won't know that until the data is actually analyzed.

DMC: We'll leave it there. Thank you for your time.

KF: Thank you.

CH: Kathy Fox is the chair of Canada's Transportation Safety Board. We reached her in Gatineau Quebec.

Ottawa Tour de France rider

CH: When Ottawa cyclist Mike Woods broke his leg last year, in the middle of a race, he wasn't sure he'd get back on a bike again. But this past weekend, he didn't just race again — he raced in the Virtual Tour de France. And he didn't just participate — he won Stage 5. After 22 kilometres, he crossed the finish line — in his living room, and on his stationary bike. Mike Woods shared the story on Ottawa Morning.

MIKE WOODS: I broke my femur in a race called Paris-Nice in March. There was a really bad fracture, initially right after the break. Lying on the side the road, I started questioning whether I'd be able to race again. Just looking at my leg, looking at the state. And so to be back riding on the bike, to be putting out the same type of power that I was putting out prior to the injury, there's a real sense of satisfaction in that to actually beat a bunch of guys, even though it was virtually, it was just a nice confirmation of all the hard work I’ve been putting in.

CATHERINE CULLEN: Does a victory feel any different, though, when you're at home? I see you got a kiss from a podium girl, a little bit, though. [MW laughs] It was your daughter, right? So what did it feel like to win at home?

MW: Yeah, exactly. It definitely wasn't as exciting as winning a real grand tour stage. I managed to do that in the past, and the emotion and the amount of fans that are around you when that happens, it just results in an incredible high. It’s just very weird to do the same thing. And literally just have one or two other people in the house, [CC laughs] just giving you a pat on the back afterwards.

CC: We'll give you a little radio pat on the back right now as well. I hope that helps.

MW: [laughing] Thanks!

CC: For people who haven't seen this, and there's some really cool footage of it online, describe sort of the setup of this virtual Tour de France for me?

MW: It's a video game, but you can effectively replicate racing, minus the actual bike handling skills. But otherwise, physiologically, it's quite similar. But it does have some videogame aspects. There are power ups. You get these little bonuses, kind of like in Mario Kart.

CC: I was going to say, yeah.

MW: Yeah, yeah. [both laugh] No banana peels, unfortunately. [CC laughs loudly] But have your home trainer bike. And then because they broadcast it throughout the world, it takes a bit of time to set up. I actually brought one of our team coaches into my house just to help me with the setup because you have three devices going all at once. You need to have the actual game going. Then another device. I was using my phone to just put myself on a Zoom call, which is used to broadcast you internationally so people can see you actually riding while you're avatar is riding. My coach had another Zoom call going with our team, talking tactics. So we had one of my directors, who’s in Italy, on the call, giving us an overview of what's going on in the race, who's looking good, who's feeling good, when I should attack. So a lot of moving pieces. And it can all be undone with a bad Wi-Fi connection. [CC laughs]

CH: That was Mike Woods speaking with the CBC's Catherine Cullen in Ottawa.

[Music: Bright instrumental]

FOA: John Lewis obit tapes

CH: Name a pivotal moment in civil rights history and there's a good chance John Lewis was there. The early days of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. The first Freedom Ride in 1961. The lunch counter sit-ins in Nashville. And of course, the historic 1965 march out of Selma, Alabama — when Mr. Lewis and dozens of other Black protesters were beaten and bloodied by white police officers. John Lewis died on Friday. He was 80 years old. Earlier in the show, we heard from the late Congressman's longtime friend, House Majority Whip James Clyburn. Here now, is Mr. Lewis himself -- reflecting on that "Bloody Sunday" and the conditions that inspired it, in a 2005 interview with Michael Enright.

JL: Selma was a sleepy little town, but in this little town, less than two-point-one Black were registered to vote, you have to stand in what we call unmovable lines. The only days that you could attempt to register to vote were the first and third Mondays in each month. You had to go to the courthouse, stand in line, try to get a copy of the so-called literacy test, try to pass that test. There were Black men with PhD degrees, Black women, teachers, lawyers, they failed the so-called literacy tests.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Even if they passed the test, it didn't mean you're going to vote, didn't it?

JL: Even if they passed the test, they were still told they couldn't register. There was so much fear also. Because even those who became registered from time to time, there was threats. People evicted from the farms, from their plantation. The school teachers were fired because they refused to get their name off of the registration lists. In Selma, you had a sheriff by the name of Jim Clark.

ME: Jim Clark, yeah.

JL: He was a big man. He wore a gun on one side, a nightstick on the other side. And he carried an electric calf proder in his hand. He didn't use that on cows. He wore a button on his left lapel that said, never. And I remember it like it was yesterday, on January 18, 1965, when it was my day to lead a group of people to the courthouse. Sheriff Clark met us at the top of the steps, and he said to me, John Lewis, you’re an outside agitator. You're the lowest form of humanity. I looked him straight in the eye, and I said, Sheriff, I may be an agitator, but I'm not an outsider. I grew up 90 miles from here. And we are going to stay here until these people are allowed to register to vote.

ME: But did the violence that you were met with, did that ever cause you to question your commitment to nonviolence? Did you ever get the sense that, well, perhaps this isn't going to work? I'm going to have to do something else?

JL: I never gave any thought during those moments when we were being beaten, the days and hours that followed, I never gave any consideration, any thought, to moving away from the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence. We had been taught that if you want to create the beloved community, the good society, then the way must be one of love, one of nonviolence, one of peace. We came to the conclusion that means and ends are inseparable. So if you want the beloved community, then the way must be one of love, one of nonviolence. So when we were being beaten, I didn't have any ill feeling against the state troopers that were beating us. We wanted to be reconciled. We wanted to create a sense of community.

CH: The late U.S. Congressman John Lewis, speaking with CBC's Michael Enright on the Sunday Edition in 2005. Three years after that interview, Mr. Lewis was Carol Off's very tired, very happy guest here on As It Happens — the day after one Barack Obama was elected U.S. president.

JL: Well, I'm still on an unbelievable high. I feel so grateful that I lived to see this unbelievable moment in the history of America and in the history of the world.

CO: When you were casting your vote, what was going through your mind? What emotions did you have?

JL: When I cast my vote on yesterday. And I really started thinking and reflecting the distance we have come, the progress that we've made, and thinking about individuals like Martin Luther King Junior that were not here to see this date come about. And I knew I was not just voting for myself, but I was voting for Dr. Martin Luther King Junior, and many others that stood in unmovable lines here in the American South.

CO: Was it a fairly emotional moment for you then?

JL: It was a very emotional moment. I teared up for a moment. But this whole period has just been unreal because it is a moment of happiness, joy, gratitude. The struggling, the pain, the suffering, it just makes it so much more meaningful. I feel so good that I had a role to play in bringing us to this day.

CO: It’s an incredible journey you've been on. We were just reflecting about your days in Selma, marching to Montgomery, the savage beating you took by the hands of the police in 1965. And to arrive at this day, how long a road do you think that's been for you?

JL: Well, it’s been a long road, a road that I traveled, and traveled because it was necessary to travel, to have free and liberate not just of people, but a nation. Growing up and working in the civil rights movement, I tasted the bitter fruits of racism, and I didn't like it. I saw those signs that said white men, coloured men, white women, coloured women. And I didn't like it. And I didn't like the fact that people of colour were denied the right to register to vote, simply because of the colour of their skin. And I wanted to be able to do something about it. And I was inspired by Dr. Martin Luther King Junior's to speak up, to speak out, and to literally put my body on the line. To help end segregation and racial discrimination, to help create a climate, an environment where we can get a civil rights act of 64 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. And today, America is a much better nation, and we are a much better people. And I believe Barack Obama, as president of the United States of America, he will have the capacity and the ability to lead us much farther down this road to the creation of a much better America, toward the creation of what Dr. King called the beloved community, a community at peace with itself.

CH: The late Congressman John Lewis, speaking with Carol on As It Happens in November, 2008. Mr. Lewis died Friday of pancreatic cancer.

[Music: That toy shop-like instrumental]

John Wick drug plot

CH: Do you know how long it takes to cut open 500 coffee beans and fill them with cocaine and then tape them back together? Do you? Of course you don't, and neither do I. Only one person knows, and he's very angry right now. Because his colleagues apparently think they're the only people who love "John Wick 2". A little while ago, some drug runners in Colombia got a cute idea about smuggling cocaine into Italy. So they enlisted someone with delicate fingers to painstakingly pack hundreds of coffee beans with cocaine, before sealing each one up with brown tape. Probably took a long time. Long enough for the bean-filler's pals to watch "John Wick 2", in which Keanu Reeves kills dozens of nameless villains. And one nameful villain, who was called "Santino D'Antonio". Hard name to forget. Which is why Italian police remembered it when a package of coffee beans showed up at the Milan airport, addressed to "Santino D'Antonio". They opened the package, and found a bunch of taped-up coffee beans full of coke. The work of a patient artisan, ruined by cronies who thought it would be hilarious to address a parcel to the bad guy in a very popular action movie. Pretty dumb ending to a plan that must have been percolating for a while. And now, the problems of a whole bunch of drug smugglers do amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.

July 20, 2020 Episode Transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode