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The AIH Transcript for April 23, 2018

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight…

CO: Panic in Toronto. Police say 10 people are dead after someone drives a van into pedestrians at a busy intersection in the north of the city. Witnesses will tell us what they saw.

JD: Darkest hours. On a sunny Monday afternoon that turned abruptly somber, Toronto councillor John Filion talks to us about his ward and says today's tragedy will change the city forever.

CO: Campaign of fear. ISIS bombs voter registration center in Kabul killing dozens of people. Now there are fresh fears in Afghanistan about the future of a long-delayed parliamentary vote.

JD: It hurts to laugh. Tayana Jacques was joking around with her boyfriend in Montreal when police gave her a $444 ticket for “excessive noise.” She says she was targeted because she's Black.

CO: Shake off your money makers. A U.K. financial advice expert sues Facebook when scammers run inaccurate ads that use his image to trick people into handing over their hard earned cash.

JD: And…Offspring cleaning. After embarrassing incidents involving a tantrum over macadamia nuts and a tantrum at a meeting, the head of Korean Air fires two prominent high-flying executives — his own daughters. As It Happens: The Monday Edition. Radio that knows your kids are never too old to be grounded.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Toronto Van Attack: Witnesses/Ward Councillor/Reporter/Expert, Montreal Couple Ticketed

Toronto Van Attack: Witnesses

Guest: Vasiola Bibolli

JD: One minute it was a busy Toronto intersection at lunchtime on a sunny day. The next it was complete chaos. This afternoon a driver in a white van jumped the curb near Yonge Street and Finch Avenue, in the north part of Toronto, and ran down dozens of pedestrians. Police say 10 are dead, 15 are injured. The suspected driver 25 year old Alek Minassian was arrested soon after the attack. This evening Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders spoke to the media. Here's part of what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK SAUNDERS: There is no avenue that we won't explore but right now based on what we have and what we're looking at doing right now because it is a multi-agency approach we open all the lanes at the start and then we follow where the evidence takes us. So at this particular point in time working collaboratively, not just on a local but also provincial and federal level, we are all collaborating and we're all putting our pieces together to see exactly what we have. And at this particular point in time there's nothing that does affect the national security footprint. We are looking very strongly to what the exact motive, or motivation was for this particular incident to take place. And at the end of the day we will have a fulsome answer and we'll have a fulsome account as to what the conclusion of this is.

REPORTER: Was it intentional or was it a mistake?

MS: Well, based on witness accounts we have a vehicle that started north on Yonge Street from Finch and drove southbound at some point in time on sidewalks at some point in time driving southbound in northbound lanes. So it's very clear just from a general perspective to say that the actions are definitely look deliberate.

REPORTER: Was the suspect known to you?

MS: There is nothing on our files. We've looked right across and there's nothing that we have on him right now.

JD: That was Toronto's chief of police, Mark Saunders, speaking to reporters this evening. Vasiola Bibolli was right there when the van jumped the curb. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Vasiola, where were you when all this began to happen?

VASIOLA BIBOLLI: We were at the Starbucks with my co-workers, we were about to head south towards the McDonald's. This van came by right near the hot dog stand.

CO: A van, this is the white van?

VB: It was a white van driven by a single male.

CO: When did it come to your attention, what was it doing that made you notice?

VB: I was actually faced away from the van but my friend was in a position to see the van and she kind of grabbed me. She's like ‘oh my gosh watch out’ as it was coming towards it didn't have enough speed at that time but she was able to pull me and then after she pulled me he accelerated and he hit one pedestrian. She was an older Asian lady, I believe, with a brown coat and then he accelerated really hard and he hit this very old lady and her body flopped onto the hood of his car and hit the ground. Her head immediately started bleeding. And then he also ran over her and continued plowing through the rest of the pedestrian sidewalk.

CO: You saw all of this?

VB: Yes.

CO: And your friend pushed you out of the way before you were one of these victims?

VB: Yes, she pulled me out of the way before I would have been one of those people, yeah.

CO: So the van jumped the curb, is that what happened?

VB: Yeah, the van pretty much jumped the curb right by the hot dog stand.

CO: And was it out of control or what?

VB: It didn’t seem it was out of control. Usually in that area there is Farmer’s Markets throughout. So we thought maybe it was just the service van at first but then when he started accelerating we knew something was wrong.

CO: Did you see the man who was driving it?

VB: I didn't like, I couldn't put a face together but I could see that the man had scruff on his face. That's all I can remember or I could recall. Like the man scruff, like a beard. Not a full-on beard but just a little bit of scruff to his face.

CO: And so the van came up on the curb and then he accelerated?

VB: Yeah. And then he accelerated hard throughout. Up until I could see that he was so far ahead to Baton Rouge and I don't know how many people he hit along that way.

CO: Were there many people out on the sidewalk?

VB: Yes, the sidewalk is always packed to around lunchtime so it was full and people are screaming and yelling and, I mean, it's too late, especially for those pedestrians that walk with probably headphones on. You wouldn't anticipate something like that.

CO: And so this is when he first jumped it just where you were, what could you see as to how people were reacting? Were they trying to get out of the way or what?

VB: They were trying to get off way and they were confused. Because when he first jumped it we were all so confused as to why this van was on the pedestrian sidewalk. And then when he was accelerating and he hit that old lady and people really started to panic because he hit that, I think, the Asian lady with a brown coat and then this older lady, probably in her 70s or 80s, and then he continued on.

CO: And the two people, they were right near you then, these two who were hit?

VB: They were about a few steps away, 15 steps away thought.

CO: And those were two of the people who did not survive this?

VB: That's correct. They're for sure dead. They put over the orange cover.

CO: How long before police arrived?

VB: About seven minutes.

CO: And what were you doing during that time?

VB: I was just there trying to see what would happen and just wait around. There was a gentleman who ran over to the old lady trying to see if she was OK. And I guess he tried to resuscitate her but obviously the blunt trauma, there was no way. And another lady who went over to the Asian lady try to see whether she was breathing or whatnot. And then we just waited around for a bit before police really showed up and then we left.

CO: And you must be very shaken by this?

VB: I was, I was more so — I just froze. Like especially when my friend told me out and then he started accelerating towards, all I could remember was this van on high speed, probably 60 kilometres-an-hour, accelerating towards this old lady and really hitting her intentionally and throwing her to the floor. And clearly she was bleeding and dead, probably immediately dead.

CO: And what were you thinking? What was going through your mind at that time?

VB: Well this is for sure — I just — I couldn't even process anything to be honest. I just thought it was so intentional and malicious.

CO: How is your friend?

VB: She was really devastated. She ended up going home.

CO: Because she actually saw coming before she pulled you out of the way.

VB: Yes, that's correct.

CO: And are you a student?

VB: I'm a law student.

CO: And so I hope you're not going back to school or work.

VB: I'm just currently at work, I don't want to be driving. But I'm not working. I'm just here to kind of just decompress.

CO: And where are you now?

VB: Well, our office is at the location where it happened.

CO: You have people with you, people who can comfort you, be around you?

VB: Yes, yes. They've been very supportive when I told my boss.

CO: It's something you will probably never forget.

VB: No. Especially at the sight of the woman being hit immediately right after. That could have been me.

CO: How close do you think you came?

VB: My friend said I was a few feet away.

CO: VasioIa, I am so glad you're OK, and what a horrible day you’ve had. So I'll leave you now and as long as you're with people who can give you some support.

VB: Thank you very much.

CO: Thank you so much.

VB: Thank you. Bye.

CO: Bye.

JD: Vasiola Bibolli was a witness to today's van attack in Toronto. Police say 10 people are dead 15 are injured. Ali Shaker was also there when the van struck multiple pedestrians. Here's what he had to say earlier to CP24.

ALI SHAKER: I just, I was coming down on Yonge and Finch. And all I saw was off the right here from the Shoppers Drug Mart, I seen a white van with red colouring on it and always saw was that he smashed into someone over there.Then I saw him go ahead. I thought he had a heart attack or something so I was trying to chase it down in a way almost, trying to catch up to see what happened. All I see is this guy's crumble, I mean he's going 70, 80 clicks — he's just hitting people one by one going down. Oh man, it was like a nightmare. I got to Yonge and Empress, I saw a lady with her leg — and it was a gruesome scene, it was really bad out there. I couldn't believe what I saw, man. It was like — everybody — all these people on the streets getting hit one by one, post office box getting crumbled up on people. One person got dragged on and their blood is all over Yonge and Empress — it’s really bad out there. I'm so shaky, I'm still dying from this. I can't believe this is happening. This is unbelievable. This is so unbelievable. He just went on the sidewalk, he just started hitting everybody. He hit every single person on the sidewalk — anybody in his was he would hit. The bus stop, everything got shattered, there's a lady in there that I saw. I just stopped and I looked and I went after itagain all I see is just crumbling up one by one, one by one. Holy God, I’ve never seen a scene like this in my life, I swear.

REPORTER: Did he look lie he was doing it with intent, with purpose?

AS: I didn’t e the person because it's a blocked van, it's one of those white vans where there is no windows nothing on this. He’s Just going down just crumbling up. You can't catch up to him. He's going 60, 70 kilometres on the sidewalk.

JD: That was witness, Ali Shaker, who spoke to reporters not long after a van hit multiple pedestrians in Toronto's North York neighbourhood today.

Toronto Van Attack: Ward Councillor

Guest: John Filion

JD: John Filion is the councillor for the Willowdale ward where the attack took place. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Councillor Filion, first of all, I'm sorry for what has happened in your ward. How did you hear the news?

COUNCILLOR JOHN FILION: Well, I got a call from my staff. I had just left North York Civic Centre, which looks out on to the scene where this all happened and I got a call saying to head back.

CO: What was going through your mind at that time?

JF: Just kind of complete shock that something like this could happen in Canada, Toronto, Willowdale. You know, it's Yonge Street, everybody's out on the first really nice day of spring. Everybody was out walking along the street. It's just kind of unbelievable that something like that could happen here. Everyone is just kind of in a state of shock about it.

CO: I just heard from Mayor John Tory who gave a quick scrum outside. He is asking people to close their businesses, to shut up their businesses for the night, to go home. People who live in the area are coming home, telling them how to do that, it’s going to be difficult — to try to keep people off the streets try to let the police do its investigation. What required at this point? What do people need to know? What are you telling people to do?

JF: Well, it's literally a crime scene and it's all cordoned off and you can't use Yonge Street. It's difficult to even cross. So just go several streets to the east or west and you have to go up past Finch or past Sheppard to get where you're going.

CO: What if you live or work there?

JF: You'll find your way, I think, you know, of all days people can put up with a little inconvenience and that may go on for several days while the police are investigating and all of us need to just keep out of their way and let them do their job.

CO: Can you describe, for those who haven't been there, what this area looks like?

JF: It's kind of a sea of high-rise condos mostly and some office buildings and a lot of little restaurants and, you know, a lot of people out at lunch hour walking along on a nice sunny day.

CO: We don't know the motive yet, this man's in custody, but we do know it is similar to what we've seen in other places where vehicles were used deliberately to hurt people, to kill them. We saw it in Nice, we saw it in London, we saw it in Berlin. What are your thoughts this afternoon, this evening as you realize that something similar has happened in your ward?

JF: It's just a shock that it could happen in our city, that it could happen anywhere in our city. You know, the area I represent to very harmonious, we have people from all over the world and everybody gets along very well and, you know, you rarely even encounter an angry person in the area. It’s just incomprehensible.

CO: It's interesting to hear the mayor very quickly with the words he gave outside the scene. He's saying that Toronto is such an inclusive city. He was emphasizing that, wanting it to be so clear that this is a city where these things don't happen, I guess. But he was very — he wanted to emphasize that point.

JF: Yes, well I think that's how we all feel. I think everybody who lives in Toronto feels that way. You know, if you polled 100 Torontonians and asked them what was really special about their city, I think ninety-five of them say exactly that, that we have such a multicultural richness and that everyone gets along. And, you know, you kind of think of Toronto as a worldwide example of that.

CO: What will you do now? What do you feel are your responsibilities to people in your ward?

JF: Well I — I just really I'm trying to stay out of out of the way of the investigation and I'm reluctant even to be doing media interviews. I guess just to reassure everybody that we do have a great city and a great community. And whatever caused this to happen is a complete aberration. But mainly you just have to think about all the victims, and there are so many, and their families — we don't even know their names yet. And there’ll be so much public sadness when that comes out.

CO: Do you think there will be a place, as there have been in the other cities where there have had these incidents, where they've put in bollards, ways to protect the sidewalk, just concrete embankments that prevent vehicles from coming up on the streets in public places like this?

JF: Well, there will be a more concerted conversation about it. And sadly, I guess, that's what we've come to. I think probably what happened today will profoundly change the city from here on in.

CO: Councillor Filion, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JF: Thank you.

JD: John Filion is the councillor for Toronto's Willowdale ward, where the attack took place. We reached Councillor Filion in Toronto. CBC journalist Diana Swain has been investigating the accused driver Alek Minassian. She told CBC News Network what she has found.

DIANA SWAIN: Well, in absence of any indication, as we heard, that this is somehow politically motivated or terrorist motivated, they're looking at some other possibilities including the possibility of mental illness. One thing has surfaced online that we know that investigators are looking at. American media are also citing law enforcement sources are saying this is an avenue of investigation. It's essentially a Facebook posting. And in it the man who appears to be Minassian, it has a picture that we know is from his LinkedIn profile, talks about quote “the supreme gentleman Elliot Rodger.” So some background on this. Elliot Rodger was, in fact, someone who killed himself after going on a shooting rampage in Isla Vista California back in 2014. He killed six people, he injured many more. Right before that happened he posted a video. And in it he talked about his frustration about being constantly rebuffed by women. He referred to himself as an “incel” that's a combined word to represent involuntary celibate. And he goes on to say that he sort of calls all men who seemed to win with women Chads —the name Chad, and the women who rebuffed him as Stacys. It's important because in this posting on Facebook that appears to be from Alek Minassian, and of course nobody's confirmed that yet and we know police are still trying to figure out the authenticity of it, it says that the “Incel rebellion has already begun. We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys.” So this is an avenue of investigation.

JD: The CBC's Diana Swain explaining what she has learned so far about the suspect in today's van attack, Alek Minassian. And you can read the latest on this story online at www.cbc.ca/news. And we will have more on today's attack coming up on As It Happens.

[Music: Somber Piano Ballad]

Montreal Couple Ticketed

Guest: Tayana Jacques

JD: They were just on their way to grab breakfast. Tayana Jacques and her boyfriend Brian Mann were walking down St. Laurent Boulevard in Montreal on a Saturday morning earlier this month. They were chatting, they were laughing. And that is when they say police showed up and handcuffed them. They were both issued fines for making “excessive noise.” Ms. Jacques is Black and she believes that is the reason she was stopped. We reached Tayana Jacques in Montreal.

CO: Ms. Jacques, what did you think was going on when Montreal police stopped you and your boyfriend on St. Lawrence Boulevard?

TJ: Well, at first I just I just thought they wanted to know like what we were talking about. So there wasn't anything to it until I sort of just — I think they were talking to Brian at that point. And he was asking them exactly what the decibel level was, like what exactly constituted the loudness of our conversation. And the cop just told them they get to decide really what the loudness is.

CO: Well, I’ll just stop you there. This is 10:00 in the morning, right?

TJ: It was like I was 10:00, 10:30, we were just like waking up getting coffee. I live across the street from where they stopped us actually.

CO: Well, were you screaming and yelling or what?

TJ: No we were just we were actually having a conversation about a dog, a breed we thought was funny looking, we were just laughing about it. And these cops were like across the street at the light. And as soon as they crossed the street they just bee lined right over to us and we're like “Why are you laughing so loud?”

CO: I'm sorry. They wanted to know why you were laughing so hard?

TJ: Exactly.

CO: Not to say “Hey can we share the joke, must be really funny?”

TJ: No, no. They're like “What was so funny, why are you guys laughing so loud?”

CO: What did you tell them?

TJ: Well, I told them that it wasn't really their business. I wasn't sure how that concerned them. And then they just started talking to Brian and he was like “Well what's too loud? What does too loud mean?” And at that point they were like “Oh, well we decided what too loud is.” And I was just standing next to the cars at point when Brian was talking to them he was kind of leaned in. And as soon as I kind of just like turned around a little bit like maybe a foot or two, they just kind of both came out of the car and you're like “Whoa, you're not going anywhere.” And I was like “Why aren’t we going anywhere?” and “What did we even do? You're not giving us a ticket right now, what are we doing wrong?” And they just kind of cuffed me and I went through all of my pants trying to go through and like seeing if I had anything on me.

CO: Were you being arrested at this point?

TJ: Well, now they were arresting me but they still weren't telling me for what.

CO: And they were cuffing you behind your back?

TJ: Yeah, behind my back I was pretty much like hunched over the hood of the car and they were both pressing against me and one of them pressed against me to keep me on the car. The other one went through my clothes, like looking through my pockets. And that's when Brian kind of backed up and he went close to the wall and he just kind of like “What are you guys doing?” And they were like “Don't worry we're going to arrest you right after.”

CO: What did they do to your boyfriend?

TJ: Three of them jumped on him and they kicked him on the back of the knee they planted his face into the ground. He had like scars on his nose. They fractured his cheek actually and they also tore his AC ligament on his shoulder, which he’s been in physiotherapy for two years and just got healed.

CO: And then they pepper sprayed him?

TJ: And then they pepper sprayed him after they've cuffed him.

CO: Did they tell him what it was he was being arrested for?

TJ: Nothing. They just they put us in the car and I don't know what was going on with him at that point because they put me in a car too. They drove me two blocks at the street on St. Laurent, turned around on St. Dominic, Back around on Roy and then just like kept me in the car for another 20 minutes and they still didn't give me the reason. And they’re like “Don't worry, we'll find you the reason” and at that point they start flipping through this little book that I guess has all the law numbers in it. And that's when the first started writing the ticket.

CO: The ticket for?

TJ: For loud noise.

CO: For being too loud?

TJ: Yes. Which I guess is a law in Plateau-Mont-Royal as well. But I checked it out and it says that it's something like $100 to $300 and they gave us the highest fine.

CO: Which is $444 dollars each.

TJ: Actually it’s $300, but $144 for administration fees.

CO: Did police say anything to you while they had you in the car?

TJ: Yeah, they called me a drug addict a few times. They asked me how many drugs I was. I was like “It’s 10:30 on a Saturday, why would I be on drugs?” And then like I was speaking in French at the beginning and they were like “Oh, your French are so good, where are you from?” And I was like, “I’m from here, I'm Haitian.” And then I eventually started speaking English because when I get really angry I start to revert back to English. And they're like “Oh your English is really good.” And they asked me questions about my job. They were like surprised I had a good job. It's just insane.

CO: Why do you believe this is a case of racial profiling?

TJ: Well, honestly because just they just arrested me while I wasn't even talking to them. And Brian and I were both doing the same thing. So I don't know why I was put in cuffs first, and why there was so much force used about it. You know, I’m being called a drug addict in a car like that, they called him a hippie they called me a drug addict. I don't really know where that comes from, but I live right here, I’ve seen people on the street being accosted by the police and they don't treat them that way. My boyfriend’s white yeah.

CO: Your boyfriend’s white and you're black and so because he was treated the same as you, again I guess, because I know you and people who are supporting this as being a case of racial profiling.

TJ: Well, I mean, I'm sure that there's some association with that because he's trying to protect his girlfriend. And I kind of feel like it might it might be a case of racial profiling just in the case that we are biracial couple, you know. And I’ve seen people give us a looks. I walk into stores and I see people give us looks a lot, so I feel it every day.

CO: What are you going to do about this?

TJ: Well, honestly all I really want is 100 per cent, the first thing is an apology because there's so much lack of respect that went into that whole situation. And, I mean, I'm like I'm shaking talking about this. I have to check through my window to see if there at the Second Cup every time I go over coffee. I'd like to feel safe in my own neighbourhood — so 100 per cent that. But even more than that they need training, these guys are not trained in human social situations.

CO: You have filed complaints with which bodies at this point?

TJ: The lawyer that we are dealing with actually knows more about that. I don't actually know what the charges are but I know it’s with the Human Rights and police ethics commission.

CO: The Montreal Police Ethics Board and Quebec Human Rights Commission.

TJ: Yeah. Brian has been pretty much taking care of everything because it's been overwhelming for me to do any of this.

CO: Brian being Brian Mann, your boyfriend?

TJ: Yes.

CO: Ms. Jacques, I appreciate hearing your story. Thank you.

TJ: Thank you. Thanks for calling.

CO: Bye.

TJ: We reached Tayana Jacques in Montreal.

[Music: Guitar Strums]

Part 2: Toronto van attack: reporter, Toronto van attack: witness, Toronto van attack: former RCMP superintendent, Kabul Bombing

Toronto van attack: reporter

Guest: Trevor Dunn

JD: A busy intersection in Toronto's North York neighbourhood is at a standstill tonight. Ten people are dead and 15 injured after a van jumped the curb near Yonge Street and Finch Avenue and ran over pedestrians. Police say the suspect is in custody. He has been identified as 25-year-old Alek Minassian. They do not know the motive behind the attack. Trevor Dunn is a CBC Toronto reporter. We reached him at the scene.

CO: Trevor, I want to get a sense of what the scene is right now. We have spoken with people earlier today just after it happened, but what's happening now in that part of the city?

TREVOR DUNN: Well, Carol I have to say it's calmed down but it's very locked down right now. I'm on Yonge Street at the moment. Hard to say, you know, what’s at the epicenter of what happened because this just stretched on, for my calculations, at least two kilometers. Right now the sort of sun is setting behind the very large office tower you have on this part of Yonge Street. And on the street it's really deserted. It's usually really busy this time of night. There's rush hour traffic and people rushing home and going to many of the shops and restaurants on the street. None of that on the street itself is just police vehicles with their lights flickering little small sort of micro crime scenes set up along this entire stretch. There'll be a sort of a group of officers standing in that area.

CO: And Trevor, not so micro a crime scene, is it? Because what they've been saying all day is this is mentioned two kilometre stretch there of blocks of the city that has to be investigated for this. So that's where they've roped that off have they, they've taped it off?

TD: The entire stretch just inaccessible to anybody, vehicles or people, along Yonge Street. Of course these huge long crime scene but, you know, sort of hotspots all the way down where it appears perhaps someone was tragically hit or maybe even killed.

CO: I know you have seen some of these videos that are circulating. There are two in particular on social media that seemed to show the arrest of the man who was driving the van. Can you describe what we can see in those videos?

TD: Yeah, there's a couple of them I'm one of them a shot from overhead. Like I said there's some very tall condo towers all along this stretch of Yonge Street. The one video it's quite possible was shot from one of those buildings. And you see a man and you can see some of the white van, it appears to be the van at the centre of all this, right behind him. And he's on a side street at the far sort of terminus of this big stretch of destruction on Yonge Street here. The van is parked there. It's on the sidewalk it appears and this man is walking out onto the street and a police officer is walking towards him. At one point the man stops. The other video you get a look at more of what he's doing. He's got his arms stretched out and pointing something it looks like he has an object in his hand. We have no idea if that is a weapon or even — it does appear like there's something in his hand we just don't know what it is. He's pointing it out the officer you can hear some shouting, it's hard to make it out. The officer then slowly approaches the man and manages to get him down on the ground. And after that, according to police, he was peacefully taken into custody. Police have him and they have this van, which you can also see from some of those images from that scene some damage to the front end of it. It's really split second decision making that this officer must have made to assess that situation and realize that, you know, a peaceful non-violent, non-lethal force arrest was possible here and made that happen. And you see, you know, this tragic deadly and disturbing event that happened in Toronto today end in slow non-violent motion there, as this suspect gets taken into custody. Some remarkable footage that those witnesses captured.

CO: An extraordinary moment. Just briefly, do we know anything, do we have any names yet of the people who have died?

TD: No, Carol, Not that I'm aware of. The information that's coming from officials are just numbers right now and they're not good. The nine dead and the 16 injured names have not come yet. Of course our newsroom at CBC in Toronto is…

CO: I think we've lost Trevor, but thank you very much and we will move on with the other interviews. We'll be following this.

JD: Trevor Dunn is a CBC Toronto reporter. We reached him at the scene of today's deadly van attack in Toronto earlier today.

Toronto van attack: witness

Guest: Joanna Russo

JD: For the residents and the workers in that area there was confusion and shock as more information began to emerge. Joanna Rousseau works near where the attack happened. We reached her earlier today.

CO: Joanna, how did you first realize that something was wrong, something was going on?

JOANNA RUSSO: Oh, I was coming back from lunch in approximately 1:30 in the afternoon and realised the sound of sirens and flashing lights and helicopters hovering over our office. I noticed there were three bodies in total right in front of the Scotia Bank.

CO: When you say three bodies what are you talking about?

JR: Two were — it was evident that these people were gone. There were two covered in orange blankets and about a hundred feet away there was another body that was covered and it seemed evident that they were gone. That was right in front of the Mel Lastman Square and then people were running up and down. Police were running up and down and hundreds of cruisers and ambulances and just sheer chaos and panic. People were crying, people were in shock wondering what was happening, it took time to process what had just happened, here and what was still going on. It's just terrible

CO: When you arrived on the scene you saw this. You must have talked to people and asked them what happened? What did they tell you?

JR: What happened is that they said that a van had struck approximately 10 people and that they were trying to catch them and the cruisers were speeding quite a bit up Yonge Street. Everybody was just sort of afraid, some people were running in different directions. They didn’t know if it was safe. I just basically went into a parking lot and hid behind there.

CO: Why did you do that? What did you think was going on?

JR: I was just afraid because you can see just the chaos in and the unease that was going on here. The first thing to think that I did was I was just afraid and went into the parking lot and just hid behind the wall and didn't know what was happening. Some sort of attack. I'm not sure.

CO: You're still there in that scene. What are people saying what are they going through? They're all exchanging information and…

JR: Yeah they're all on their phones. They were all trying to process what's going on.

CO: Did you see the white van that apparently hit these people?

JR: No. I arrived right after it happened it looked like to me.

CO: How are you doing?

JR: A little calmer now, now that I've just walked away from there and I’m sitting down here on the benches. People are sitting out here. The crowd seems to be spinning out but there's quite a bit of traffic here on Doris Avenue. I’m going to try to get home. It's still blocked off. Hopefully I can get home, otherwise all I'll have to walk, go by foot. Oh dear, there's still quite a bit of chaos here.

CO: What's happening?

JR: Police still have it blocked off so people are scattering to find ways to get home.

CO: Joanna I think we're kind of losing you there. I hope you're able to go someplace and gather your thoughts and I appreciate you talking to us. Thank you.

JR: Thank you. Thank you so much.

CO: Take care.

JR: Have a good day.

CO: You too, bye.

JR: Bye-bye now.

JD: Joanna Russo works near Yonge Street and Finch Avenue where today's van attack happened. We reached her earlier

Toronto van attack: former RCMP superintendent

Guest: Garry Clement

JD: Not long after the attack there was a standoff between police and the suspected driver, which was captured on video by witnesses. The suspect 25-year-old Alek Minassian is now in custody. Garry Clement is a former RCMP superintendent. We reached Mr. Clement in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Clement, what was your initial reaction to the reports of this van attack in north Toronto?

GARRY CLEMENT: Probably like most Canadians shock, extreme disappointment having, you know, lived through all the events of 9/11 and other events having been on law enforcement. It's a type of thing that we hope we immune from but I've said for a long time Canada was not immune. We can't say it's a terrorist attack yet. I think we have to be cautious on that. But it definitely has all the hallmarks of an attack.

CO: We've seen deliberate attacks using vehicles to devastating effect in cities like Barcelona and Nice and in London and in Berlin — all of these things and it changes the city. It changes the quality of the city, doesn't it?

GC: Absolutely. You know, 9/11 changed the world. I think we all have to accept that. And this here definitely changes the city. I think it is very much like London and I traveled a lot to London last year. It's you know, you don't go over there without at least being vigilant when you're walking around. And I think that's going to happen in Toronto.

CO: You've seen the videos, the social media videos of the arrest of the actual man in the van that is suspected of doing the attack. Can you to describe what you can see in those videos?

GC: Well, you know, what you saw was, you know, an individual first that was — the police I think did a commendable job of getting him to get down so that they could take control of him. It was interesting, I mean, in as much as, you know, I mean we suspect with a lot of we've seen a lot of events like this the individuals also have — if it is a terrorist event — have dynamite or had some kind of bomb strapped to them, this is not the case here. So other than almost surrendering when he was forced to it appeared almost a sense of calm on the part of the individual, which does not give the indication of somebody being unbalanced.

CO: It's difficult to hear in the videos that have been posted but the man is standing, he's saying something that seems to be suggesting he has a gun or whatever he seems to be trying to get the officer to shoot him and the officer won't shoot him. The police officer’s just, as you point out, is absolutely remarkable in how he takes this man down.

GC: And, you know, that's that suicide by cop, we've heard the expression before, and that kind of was the impression that he gave me, was he wanted to be shot by the police. And I, again, I mean, the way that it was handled by the police officers. They deserve to be commended because they demonstrated a lot of restraint and you know thank God. It was bad enough we've got all the victims and families that are going to go through terrible turmoil but at least now the individual that has done it, hopefully because he is still alive, can get enough information and to ascertain if this is you know a lone wolf or if it's involved in something else. And that's essential.

CO: It's very interesting what you're saying here because what we're seeing here and what you'd expect would happen perhaps an American city that they would have shot him. I mean, he was being provocative. He, as you point out, he may have had a vest strapped to him. He may have had explosives, he may have had a weapon. But this police officer just — he actually talked to him and then had him down and handcuffed him and arrested him as though he had robbed a Shoppers Drug Mart. I mean, it was just it was extraordinary how determined he was to take this man alive.

GC: Yeah and I kind of sense, you know, from the conversation in the way that happened, the officer did a great job of treating the individual’s body language. And obviously it shows the level of maturity and calm of the officer. Because you're correct, I think in a lot of circumstances the individual would have been shot. So, you know, it's good to see, I think police officers so often don't get the recognition they deserve. But it shows that overall the training is really good and most officers react in the appropriate manner.

CO: You mentioned that these things tend to change cities. When you're in London now you're very conscious of what can happen to you as a pedestrian on a sidewalk. What do you think happens after this? I mean, we've we spoke with the councillor who's ward this happened and who said that he fully expects to see things like bollards and things of that nature constructed in places. That discussion has to happen. Do you think it will change how Toronto secures itself?

GC: Well, I think we have to be pragmatic here and it's got to be measured and balanced whatever's done. You can't protect a whole city. Vehicles can —I think there's going to be certain areas that may have to be looked at — but overall to say that you're going to protect a whole city it's a virtual impossibility. You know what I hope comes out of it is that everybody has a real look at what legislation we have, have given sufficient legislative powers to our security services and law enforcement to act as quickly as possible to put some controls on individuals. I mean, all those things have to be discussed now. We can't ignore it.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Clement, thank you.

GC: You're quite welcome.

JD: Garry Clement is a former RCMP superintendent. We reached him in Toronto. And for more on this developing story go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Trance Bass]

Kabul Bombing

Guest: Mujib Mashal

JD: They had gathered to exercise their rights as citizens and voters — then the suicide bomber struck. ISIS has now claimed responsibility for the bombing outside a government office in Kabul, Afghanistan, which has now claimed the lives of dozens of men, women and children. The blast took place in a largely Shiite neighbourhood as people lined up for national identification cards as part of a drive to register millions of Afghans in the run up to long-delayed parliamentary elections. Mujib Mashal has been covering the attack for the New York Times. We reached him in Kabul.

CO: Mujib, the images we are getting from this blast at this registration centre are just devastating. Can you describe what you have seen?

MUJIB MASHAL: It was a very crowded area. So the victims were a mix, about 60 people dead but 120 wounded. And among them, I mean, the youngest I think we saw was about four years old. The oldest I'm not sure, but there is this devastating picture of this one young girl on the hospital bed who is in school uniform. She's still wearing her pink school bag the straps were still on her shoulders and the bag is sort of pulled up on this hospital bed in the morgue as a pillow.

CO: What have people said to you about the blast? You've been able to — you and your colleagues have talked to some of the survivors. What did they say about it?

MM: They're very angry. There's a lot of anger in that part of town because these sort of attacks have repeatedly targeted civilians. So they feel that the government has repeatedly let them down and not protected them, in particular about this registration centre. They were saying that there wasn't sufficient security that the centre was set up very recently. There's been a renewed drive to get people to register so the centre was just set up about a week or two ago.

CO: People were lining up to register there because they have been told they have to if they want to vote in the elections in October — already three years overdue for those elections. If people are in this blast saying where was the security for us to be here when the government wants us to be here. What does the government the think about it?

MM: The lapse in security in the blast is just an extra layer. The there's a lot of voter fatigue in this country because consecutive elections have turned out, not reasons for stability, but rather almost bringing the country on the brink of a civil war last time — at least in 2014 — because there was so much fraud and the two sides were at each other's throats. And the voters who had risked similar security situations, some voters had their fingers cut off by insurgents for voting. They were the losers in the middle, they are saying we took all these risks to vote for a parliament. A lot of the members are very corrupt, they engage in very non-democratic conduct. So there wasn't a lot of interest. The government was pushing people to go out and register. But now this was the biggest security incident so far but there have been a bunch of other incidents, smaller incidents around the country also, which is certainly going to add to the nervousness that people already had.

CO: Based on what does the government have confidence that people are going to come out if they can't provide security?

MM: Well, I mean, when you speak to these government officials in private they all expressed concern. They know that people are tired and people have to take huge risks to do. In public they project this confidence that there will be a good turnout. But in private they acknowledge that it's a big ask of the people. So it is going to be a very difficult task between now and October in the middle of a raging war to convince fatigued voters to take the risk one more time and to death faith in a process that has let them down repeatedly.

CO: What will happen to these parliamentary elections if people in Afghanistan don't register to vote?

MM: There are two theories. One is that even if it's a low turnout, but if it's a clean election, meaning that those who vote are actual real voters and not ballots that are stuffed in people's name, it could still be worth it. Just because there is almost consensus that the existing parliament is largely corrupt and has overstayed its term by three years and they have misused that extension of power. So a lot of them do need to be voted out. But a very small turnout will obviously also raise a much larger question about this 17 years of a democratic set up after the fall of the Taliban and why it remains so fragile.

CO: And so will they offer any more security to polling stations? What is the government saying about that?

MM: We just have to realize that they will make offers and they will project confidence but we just know that this is a very deadly widespread war right now. The security forces are stretched already in their day to day operations because the war is probably at its most violent stage right now. Adding an election and trying to secure an election is not an easy task but it just has to be done because all of this war of the past 17 years was underpinned in one thing that there will be a democratic set up in Afghanistan and the cycle of that democracy founded on elections need to be protected. So as difficult as it will be it would have to go ahead.

CO: Mujib, I will let you go, I know you have been covering this horrible blast for a couple of days now without much sleep, but thank you so much for talking to us tonight.

MM: Thanks, Carol.

JD: Mujib Mashal is The New York Times senior correspondent in Afghanistan. We reached him in Kabul

Toronto Van Attack: Witness

JD: If you have been listening to the program tonight you have been hearing our continuing coverage of the attack in Toronto today. Police have a suspect in custody. He has been identified as Alek Minassian, a 25-year-old man from Richmond Hill, also north of Toronto. Police have not released any information about a motive. Nine people are dead, 16 others are injured after a van drove through a lunchtime crowd in the north of the city today. Witnesses to the van attack describe a scene of carnage near the intersection of Yonge and Finch. One witness, who was in his car driving behind the attacker, spoke to reporters about what he saw.

SOUNDCLIP

WITNESS: I could have caught up to him and try to do something. He's going 60, 70, — at least 70, 80 kilometres-an-hour.

REPORTER: On the side on the sidewalk?

WITNESS: On the sidewalk.

REPORTER: Tell us how you’re feeling right now?

WITNESS: I’m numb. I was looking for my mom and dad. My mom’s not here. I thought my dad was walking around somewhere so I started driving to see my dad’s going for a walk. He goes for walks. I’m numb. I saw people with their body parts right at Yonge and Empress — bodies laying down at sidewalks. One by one, one by one — one after another. He was already gone, he's going 80 — he's going 70, 80, I'm going five, 10 kilometres shaking, watching people that are on the sidewalk already hit, and I'm trying to see what is going on. At that moment you don't know what to do, your body, your mind, your body, everything goes out, it goes up in the air. You're just, you're looking at body parts now. I'm looking at people one by one on the sidewalk. Wow. I can't believe I saw this. This is crazy. I live right behind these buildings.

REPORTER: So you were driving home?

WITNESS: I was at Yonge and Steeles driving all the way down south of Finch.

REPORTER: So where did you first see the van?

WITNESS: When I was driving down this way I seen him smash into something here. I didn't realize what's going on. I'm like OK someone's hurt. Then I see him just keep going down. One after another and he just drove on the sidewalk, he wasn't on the road no more. He wasn't driving on the road he was on the sidewalk going right down the sidewalk anybody in his path they were flying in the air. Anybody in this path, they were flying in the air. He killed a lot of people, he ruined a lot of lives, a lot of people's lives and ruling over this person. He did all — he destroyed so many people intentionally. If you hit one person it's an accident because, you know, something might have happened. When you start smashing into people going in the postboxes where you go and put your mail in —I saw one of them fly in the air oh my God. This is gruesome, this a scene out of a movie. It's a scene out of a movie, I've never seen this in my life.

JD: That was a witness to the attack in Toronto today. For more information on this developing story go www.cbc.ca/news.

[Music: Somber Piano Ballad]

Part 3: Waffle House Shooting, Facebook Lawsuit, Keurig Toronto Recycling

Waffle House Shooting

Guest:

JD: A Waffle House outside of Nashville is the site of the latest mass shooting in the United States. Today, police caught Travis Reinking, the man they believe went into that restaurant in the early hours of Sunday morning and began shooting. Four people were killed — and that number could have been much higher if it had not been for one customer — James Shaw Jr. He rushed the gunman and managed to disarm him. Here he is describing that moment.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES SHAW JR: And it was at that time lockdown made up my mind because there is no way to lock the door, that if it was going to come down to it he was going to have to work kill me. At the time that he was either reloading or the gun jammed or whatever happened, is when I ran to swivel door, I hit him with the swivel door, the gun was jammed up and it was pushed down. So we were scuffling and I managed to get him with one hand on the gun and grabbed it from him and I threw it over the countertop.

JD: Brennan McMurray is a friend of James Shaw Jr. They were together during the shooting. We reached Mr. McMurray in Nashville.

CO: Brennan, how are you doing today?

BRENNAN MCMURRAY: Today is a little bit better. Just got some good news that he's been caught. But still it's a significant loss for the families. And I'm just glad that I was able to walk out of that place.

CO: Let’s go back to what happened. This is early Sunday morning when did you realize something awful was happening?

BM: So we walked into Waffle House a little bit before 3:30 in the morning. We’d actually went to another Waffle House before that but it was actually extremely packed so we left that one and went to that location to grab a bite to eat. We literally were in there maybe a minute and a half, two minutes before things went downhill. The glass shattered. And then there's a big cloud of smoke. You start hearing the gunshots.

CO: At this point the shots you heard was, we understand that the shooter started shooting and killing people outside the Waffle House before he came in. Those are the first shots you heard?

BM: Correct. So you hear loud noises but you're not thinking anything, the main road is behind you and we're looking at the counters. So you're thinking that that's just kind of going on. When glass shatters though, I think that's when everyone realized that that wasn't normal course of business and things had escalated very quickly.

CO: You and your friend, you and James Shaw, where did you go to hide?

BM: So we ran — so the way that the was set up there’s one door you come in, it's kind of like a dual pane door so you walk in one door turn the corner walk in another. We ran past that door to the back entrance of the where the bathrooms are. Immediately upon running back there me and another guy were trying to break into the back door that leads into the kitchen. We couldn't get into it. And then the shots started getting louder as if they were inside now. So then I just yelled out everyone get into the bathroom and lock the door thinking that James was right there the whole time. But he wasn’t, and so I was like oh he's got to be in the other bathroom, he wouldn’t just sit in the hallway. But I’m kind of grateful that he did.

CO: How long were you in the bathroom?

BM: So the shots were ringing probably for 15, 20 seconds it's like just going like, bow, bow bow — but then they stopped. I guess that's when James took his opportunity to go. So another guy in a restaurant is like hey I got to go my brother’s out there, I told him I said Listen wait my friend’s out there. Wait, you know, wait 10 seconds because in our training they tell you that 10 to 15 seconds is what it takes to reload a gun like that.

CO: When did you learn that your friend James Shaw had done this act of heroism of grabbing the gun and tossing it over the counter?

BM: When I yelled for everyone to walk back into the bathroom and lock the door until the police came I, probably a few seconds after that, James came back into the restaurant and started yelling. B.J., B.J., B.J. So I know his voice, so I unlocked the door, I look out again he's like hey we've got to go. We've got to go. So then we go outside and at that point, I mean, I've already seen the lady sitting in the restaurant she's dead, another lady her head’s cocked back. I thought at the time that she was even potentially dead. We walked through the door of the Waffle House, there was another guy dead. That's when the first responders arrived. It was at that point that James told me that he actually wrestled the gunman.

CO: He had a scuffle with him, he had to actually — it wasn't like he just took it from him, he fought to get that gun and toss it away.

BM: He did fight because when he had came he was limping. So I was looking at him to see if he got shot or anything like that. His hands were bloody. And then also when we actually sat him down he said his hand was burning.

CO: How did he hurt his arm?

BM: So when he was scuffling with the gunman, because he was in the back where the bathroom was in the hallway and they have swivel doors right there. When the gunman put his gun barrel down towards the ground, I guess it either got jammed or he was reloading, James then struggled with the guy to get the gun away from him. He finally yanked it away and that's how he hurt his hand, he grabbed the barrel of the gun that was just discharged several times and then threw it over the counter away from the gunman.

CO: And the barrel would be hot?

BM: The barrel was extremely hot. He has a second degree burn on his hand.

CO: You mentioned that in our training that you know what duration it takes to reload or whatever. Do you and James have training in this regard?

BM: So, I can't speak on James, but at my company we do an active shooter training. So if you can't run then you hide, if you can’t hide you fight. We ran, the hiding I thought was taking place. But James clearly could only fight. And I'm very glad he did.

CO: Just finally just, I mean, how are you and James doing? How is he? Because he talked to a lot of people, I know he is very tired and must be very emotionally exhausted from all that. Both of you saw all these bodies and his act of heroism, people are so grateful to him. But how are you both doing?

BM: We're tired. You know, just the strain, I mean, we both have two young children — just the fact that we got to go home and that's definitely brightening our days. You know, we really appreciate everyone calling and reaching out to us. I have so many random people reaching out to me via Facebook and all these other different things to say thank you and we really appreciate it. But we're tired but we're thankful. And I think that thanks and that grace is what's pushing us through today.

CO: Brennan, I'm glad you're OK and I'm sure glad your friend James was there.

BM: You’re telling me? I'm thankful too. He’s going to be able to hold this over my head for the rest of my life. And I told him earlier today that I’d allow that.

CO: Brennan, thank you.

BM: Thank you so much. You guys have a great day.

JD: Brennan McMurray is one of the survivors of the shooting early Sunday morning at a Waffle House near Nashville. And we reached him in Nashville.

[Music: Jazz]

Facebook Lawsuit

Guest: Mark Lewis

JD: Martin Lewis's face is familiar to millions of people who have seen him on TV or visited his website www.moneysavingsexpert.com. Unfortunately, Mr. Lewis says his image is also being used by scammers who pay Facebook to run ads duping vulnerable people into investing in their get-rich-quick schemes. Mark Lewis is Martin Lewis attorney. We reached Mark Lewis in London.

CO: Mr. Lewis, these ads that feature Martin Lewis, what are they for?

MARK LEWIS: What happens is we're not talking about Facebook posts but on top corner of Facebook they have sponsored advertisements, where they use Martin Lewis’ images and they use them for companies that want to sell investments such as Bitcoin investments, binary trading — it basically scams, cons, frauds on people asking them to give all their hard earned savings to these people who then disappear and spend the money very quickly.

CO: And they actually have — there have been victims of these schemes. People have been duped by these ads.

ML: Many victims. And it's only the ones who’ve come forward that we know of. Obviously there might be four more who are too embarrassed to say but some of them have lost significant six-figure sums of money on the basis that Martin Lewis is in this country that probably the most trusted financial expert and he’s known as a money saving expert. He's in a survey as being sixth most trusted person in Britain. So people, when they see that he's endorsed a product, or they think he's endorsed a product, they therefore back that product.

CO: How long has this been going on?

ML: Over 12 months. I mean, it started originally when Martin became aware of he’d get in touch with Facebook and say please take those adverts down because people are losing money. Then they’d take them down two or three weeks after they've already done the harm and that each one would be replaced with one or two or three others. So it never, ever stopped.

CO: And people who are on Facebook, we've all seen our ads that show up and they claim someone we know has endorsed the product and service, it just says so-and-so user your friend likes this it's as simple as that. But this is far more elaborate, is it not?

ML: What it is with Martin is the adverts normally say Martin, and it might have a picture of him tapping his nose, has a secret of how you can make money. It's almost too good to be true but you have someone very reputable backing it saying this is what you do you take 10,000 pounds and turn it very quickly into 20,000 pounds.

CO: So now Martin Lewis is seeking damages from Facebook. What does he hope to achieve?

ML: What he's really doing, I mean, he's made it very clear from the outset that any damages he receives will go to charity to help victims of scamming and advert charities that go to people that have been scammed. But what he hopes to achieve is he wants to make it so expensive for Facebook to do things that they will suddenly realize this isn't worth doing anymore because they get paid for these adverts. And if they get paid a thousand pounds it costs them 2,000 pounds per advert there's no economic interests. What he wants to do is hit them in the pocket, when he’s hit them in the pocket they will stop doing it. It's very easy for them to stop things that they don't take advertisements for child pornography or prostitution. And quite simply, they could say we're not going to take advertisements for financial scams.

CO: But these things are caught after the fact, right? I mean, Facebook is saying we do not allow adverts were misleading or false on Facebook. And they said they have explained to Martin Lewis that he should report adverts that infringe his rights and they will be removed.

ML: Well he has and what he's done for over a year getting in touch with them. But the minute one advert is closed, after it's already it’s harm, it gets replaced with another one and it's actually much easier rather than putting the onus Martin who doesn't necessarily see all the adverts that feature him. Facebook might send out an advert to 20,000 people. If Martin or one of his associates doesn't see the advert, there are 20,000 people who are victims and Martin doesn't know of it.

CO: But Facebook also says it has shut down several of the ads and accounts in question, so it's pursuing it. What more do you think Facebook can do?

ML: Well, Facebook could not run the adverts in the first place. In England there is the Financial Services Authority. Facebook has said we're not having adverts for any investment from any company that isn't regulated by the FSA. We're not having adverts for Bitcoin schemes, we’re not having adverts for get-rich-quick schemes, it’s fairly easy. Newspapers don't carry adverts for scams, newspapers have advertising departments, newspapers can say we don’t want to run an advert for that.

CO: And this goes into exactly something that has been discussed by Mr. Zuckerberg himself in past weeks, that we don't know what Facebook is, what kind of an animal it is. When you say that the newspapers don't allow this, but we don't know if Facebook is a newspaper. It is a news outlet, what are its responsibilities? Is it a conventional publisher or is it something else? Is that at the heart of this?

ML: It's partly at the heart of it but it's rather simple for them to say we're not a publisher. That's what they rely on in a sense for their defence. The reality is that there are different things within Facebook. So they can't just say we are a message board where one Facebook friend contacts and other Facebook friend. That’s one part of it — but there’s a significant part and probably the most profitable part is where they take sponsored advertisements, but they're going to have to come to terms with the fact that when they publish an advert they do so as a publisher. They are paid for something and they publish it to a great deal of the world or a targeted audience. In publishing there is no way of describing what they're doing without using the word publication.

CO: All right, we will be watching this. Mr. Lewis, I appreciate speaking with you ,thank you.

ML: Thank you very much.

JD: Mark Lewis is representing personal finance expert Martin Lewis in his suit against Facebook. We reached Mark Lewis in London.

[Music: Hip-Hop]

Keurig Toronto Recycling

Guest: Vincent Sferrazza

JD: The City of Toronto is in a bit of a disagreement with a coffee giant. And there's some trash talking going on. Toronto says that the very handy, yet wasteful coffee pods, are themselves trash — as in not recyclable. Keurig Canada is launching a campaign encouraging people to put their pods in the blue bin. Vince Sferrazza is the director of planning at Toronto's solid waste management services. And we reached him in Toronto.

CO: Mr. Sferrazza, what do you make of Keurig’s campaign to get people to recycle their coffee pods?

VINCE SFREZZA: We are rather concerned about the messaging that Keurig has stated in their campaigns. In essence what it does is create confusion amongst our residents and the users with respect to what can and what cannot be recyclable. And currently coffee pods are not accepted in the city of Toronto's blue bin or green bin program.

CO: So they’re saying, Keurig is saying you can recycle this, but what happens if people do put the Keurig pods in their blue boxes?

VS: So what we are actually experiencing through some tests is that the coffee pods that are being put into blue bin are in fact being put in with the grounds and the coffee. And when the grounds are still in the pod along with the lid or the liner, they in fact contaminate and ruin the rest of the other blue bin material. And when that happens that material becomes contaminant and that’s then lost revenue for the city because we can no longer sell the newsprint or the paper because it has become garbage and we then have no other choice but to landfill that material.

CO: What then happens to those pods in the blue box?

VS: So when there are pods in the blue box, the ones that we found as I said, they are full of are organic material they are full of the grounds or the liquids — they essentially are residue. They are taken the off of the stream and put into a residue stream, which then goes to landfill.

CO: And you have problems because there’s lots of ads that tell me this, but there is a lot of there’s a problem with contaminated material getting into the recycling and then you’ve had problems with even the people, the companies, the countries that are doing the recycling, they reject this material.

VS: Correct, correct. So there have been new restrictions placed on recycling material entering primarily in Asia, which has caused us to have to either find new markets for materials, or if we can't, then they become disposed of. So we're finding that the contamination levels that we're currently experiencing are essentially too high and do not meet the current or the new restrictions and standards that are imposed on the recycled material entering Asia. So as a result — specifically China, sorry. So as a result we're just not in a position to accept any new materials or packages, especially if that package or product is in fact full of coffee grounds.

CO: Can you give an estimate of how much money this costs when the pods are tossed into the blue bins?

VS: Well, we lose millions of dollars, in essence. So right now we're experiencing just over 25 per cent contamination rate in our blue bins, and as a result of that if that continues we could lose as much as nine million dollars this year.

CO: Is Keurig completely wrong about its pods being recyclable?

VS: Well, the coffee pot itself is made up of different materials. You have the plastic shell of itself and within that shell there's the grounds and on top of that is a liner. In order for the pod to effectively be accepted and recycled the actual lid would have to be removed. The coffee grounds would have to also be removed. The pod itself, the plastic shell will have to be washed. The liner be removed and then that would could only be placed into a recycling bin. If all that occurs then it is possible that, in fact, the pod could be recycled. But again according to our experience and according to our studies that is not happening.

CO: There are cities in Canada that do recycle these coffee pods, right?

VS: Yes, well there is a program within British Columbia that indicates they said they could accept it, however the circumstances there are much, much different from what we are experiencing here in Ontario. And the other main issue is the lack of standardization within that industry. If you go to any retailer, go to any supermarket and you go to the coffee aisle you will see a whole variety of coffee pods made up of different plastics, that claim to be recyclable, claim to be compostable instructing the users how to place the coffee pod within a blue bin or a green bean and it's frankly very confusing for the user. So all of these circumstances have brought us to the point today where we just cannot accept coffee pots in our blue bin or green bin.

CO: You know, we interviewed John Sylvan, who invented the Keurig pods and he told us that he regrets having invented it because of this very issue — because of all the garbage it's produced. He's told us he doesn't own a machine.

VS: Right. Well, I can understand the maybe the unintended consequences that these coffee pods have created. But having said that, I mean, we at the City of Toronto do want to see a solution and we are, and will continue, to collaborate with the coffee pod industry. We are talking about doing testing and to understand each other's circumstances in order to find a solution. So I can understand why he feels that way and somewhat sympathize but we are looking to try to see in fact if there is a solution to this particular problem.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Sferrazza, thank you.

VS: You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.

JD: Vince Sferrazza is the director of planning at Toronto's solid waste management services. We reached him in Toronto

Airline Heiresses Fired

JD: How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child? Or to put it another way, “As chairman of Korean Air and as head of my family, I feel crushed by the immature behaviour of my daughters.” The first quote: King Lear, venting his rage about his daughter Goneril. The second: Cho Yang-ho, CEO of Korean Air, venting his disappointment about his daughters Heather and Emily. The first drama is a tragedy — the second, really more of a farce. Mr. Cho issued his statement yesterday and he announced that his thankless children, both of whom held management positions at Korean Air, were fired. Now you might recall the famous offense committed by the elder of his daughters Emily in 2014. This is from an Al Jazeera report on the so-called “nut-rage” incident.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: In the first class cabin Cho, enraged over being served macadamia nuts in a bag instead of on a plate, was hurling abuse at the cabin crew. She demanded the pilot return to the gate. So this man, the head flight attendant could be thrown off.

JD: That daughter subsequently spent time in prison for violating aviation laws. But as far as most South Koreans were concerned, not enough time. Her ridiculous tantrum was more evidence of what was wrong with chaebol — a term referring to large companies run by families — specifically that it turned unskilled family members into entitled incompetent executives who demand porcelain bowls for their macadamia nuts — among other things. And then this month police began investigating the younger daughter, Emily Cho. She was accused of throwing water in the face of an advertising executive during a meeting. She insisted she had thrown the water on the floor, but did apologize for pushing the executive. Didn't matter, now she and her sister are out, doesn't quite rise to the level of a Shakespearean tragedy of course. But their father is obviously feeling leery.

April 23, 2018 episode transcript

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