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The AIH Transcript for February 15, 2021

Hosts: Carol Off and Samira Mohyeddin

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

SAMIRA MOHYEDDIN: Good evening, I'm Samira Mohyeddin, and this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

SM: Tonight:

CO: Grant No Quarter. A researcher at Laurentian University knew his school was strapped for cash but was shocked to find his lab's research money cut off. Now, he says it's time to put management under the microscope.

SM: Dark days. When we last spoke with Mona Seif, her brother was in an Egyptian prison for his activism. Now her sister is behind bars too.

CO: 10 years after the Arab Spring. Mona Seif tells us what continues to fuel her family's fight for democracy.

SM: Out of order. An Ontario lawyer says it's wrong to sentence black defendants without considering their experiences of systemic racism. Now a rare five judge panel is weighing the evidence.

CO: Stool's paradise. New research into the extreme excremental powers of sea cucumbers. Show scientists failed to pick up what the cucumbers were laying down.

SM: And prank recall. Yes, we brought you that story of a metalhead who made a guitar out of his late uncle's skeleton. Now a Tampa Bay reporter is proving his mettle by fact checking ours. And he tells us the guitar maker looks mighty familiar. As It Happens, the Monday edition, radio with a new bone to pick.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Laurentian Money Problems

Laurentian Money Problems

Guest: Adam Kirkwood

SM: Laurentian University has serious money problems. A few weeks ago, the school in Sudbury, Ontario, became the first university in the province to apply for protection from creditors. And now it's become clear that money earmarked for research grants was being spent on the university's operating costs instead. The details were first reported in the Globe and Mail. As a result, faculty and Ph.D. students have had millions of dollars in research money cut, including Adam Kirkwood. He's a Ph.D. student in the Laurentian Biology Department. We reached Adam Kirkwood in Sudbury.

CO: Adam, how did you come to learn that your grant money wasn't there anymore?

ADAM KIRKWOOD: So it was actually a bit disappointing the way we found out that the grant money wasn't there anymore. I sent some of my samples, so I work up north and I take permafrost samples and we do different analysis on them. So I had taken these samples and I was shipping them off to another lab down south. And I did this on Monday, February 1st. And then a few days later, we found out that the payment had been declined. And of course, this was right after we heard about the declaration of insolvency at Laurentian. So it prompted us to look into this further. Yeah. And we found out that our purchase cards had been frozen and there are more restrictions on spending.

CO: But that's how you found out, the university didn't tell you that they had, that basically your research grant was going to have been already taken into keeping the lights on, then the salaries paid.

AK: Yeah. So on February 1st, like I said, the day they declared insolvency, we got an email from President Hache saying that the university had filed for credit protection. But the email was very, it didn't include much detail. And so at first, like I didn't fully understand, I thought, OK, Laurentian's entered some legal proceedings and they're just letting us know. And then I started talking to my supervisors and to other researchers, and they're like, no, this is actually pretty serious. And then it wasn't until a few days later when more articles started coming out and people had dug into the finances of Laurentian, that we found out all of our research grants were mingled into another account for operational expenses. And we found out that all of the money that students and faculty had applied for, for research grants, was now gone. So we didn't even hear this from the university.

CO: Do you have any idea how large the pool of money, how much research grant was at Laurentian that has now disappeared into this insolvency?

AK: I don't remember the exact numbers, but I know it was in the tens of millions of dollars. And personally, in my research group, we've lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. And myself, I had applied for my own fellowship funding so I could complete some of my work. And personally, I've lost over 10,000 dollars in research money. And I don't know how much money I've lost yet in terms of my salary.

CO: Good heavens. What's reported by Canadian Press is that this has been going on for years, in fact, that the university has been having serious financial problems and that so because the initial reporting suggested that this was a result of pandemic consequences like other universities are going through. But it seems that things are really or have been really bad at Laurentian for some time. Did you know that?

AK: We did have an idea that Laurentian was having troubles financially and some of this data was publicly available, that there had been deficits, but there's been a complete lack of transparency on the university administration's part that none of us knew that it was this severe. And the University Faculty Association had been asking the university for months, if not years, to have a more in-depth look at the finances. And the university simply would not share this data with them. And all of this only became public in the last few weeks when we really found out how bad it was.

CO: Again, the CP is reporting that it has seen a letter by a government advisor who was supposed to probe the school's financial troubles. Alan Harrison, who has 40 years of experience working at post-secondary schools. And he said in this letter, "I have never seen anything remotely similar to or as serious as this state of affairs at Laurentian University". Who do you blame? Who's whose doorstep should this be laid at?

AK: [chuckle] You know, that's that's a good question. And I think it's a very important question. And that's something that I've been trying to figure out myself. Of course, it's the responsibility of past administrations and past university presidents who were there for eight or so years, like this kind of deficit or debt doesn't just show up overnight. And at first, when all of this started happening, I...I had sympathy for the current president of Laurentian, Dr. Hache, thinking, wow, how awful it is to inherit this. But then the more we thought about it. Now, President Hache has been at Laurentian for over a year and there's been no transparency on his behalf as well. Instead, all of this was kept behind closed doors and nobody had any idea what was happening. And now that it has come to light, the president and the board of governors are saying, oh, well, we're in this together, we're going to work through it as a community, which frankly, myself and others find a bit insulting because it's the staff and the faculty and the students who are going to face the consequences of this and the result of job losses, pay cuts. And we don't know if the same will be faced by the senior administration.

CO: This is a real problem for them, isn't it? Because they have to recover. It looks like about almost 40 million dollars to cover those obligations. Have you been given any sense of whether or not they will find that or that the government might contribute money and allow your grants to proceed?

AK: Unfortunately, we haven't really been given much information on this. There's a lot of us who are asking these questions, but we're simply not getting answers. This, again, just circles back to the complete lack of transparency on the senior administration's part.

CO: What are the ramifications for your work, for your career? What long term effects is this going to have on you personally?

AK: That's something I keep trying to figure out. And I know, of course, there's ramifications in the short term. In the case of losing my funding and perhaps having to stay at Laurentian a few extra semesters or even an extra year to finish my Ph.D. But long term, it can have effects because I don't know what the reputation of Laurentian University is going to be afterwards. Is the fact that I did my Ph.D. and research based Ph.D. here at Laurentian, is it going to look negatively on me? So there's a lot of questions about how this will affect future funding in the future of people's careers.

CO: Adam, I'm sorry you're going through all this. I appreciate you telling us the story. Thank you.

AK: Well, thank you for letting me tell it.

CO: All right. Bye bye.

AK: Bye.

SM: Adam Kirkwood is a Ph.D. student in Laurentian University's biology department. He spoke to us from Sudbury, Ontario.

[Music: percussion instrumental]

Ontario Judges Panel

Guest: Gail Smith

SM: Gail Smith thinks it's time for Canadian judges to think seriously about antiblack racism. Ms. Smith is one of the lawyers for a man named Kevin Morris. In 2018, Mr. Morris was convicted of carrying a concealed loaded handgun. The Crown wanted a minimum four year sentence. Gail Smith argued for just one year. The trial judge agreed, citing the role antiblack racism played in bringing Mr. Morris before him. The crown appealed that sentence, and last week, Ms. Smith represented Mr. Morris before a five judge panel of Ontario's top court. That there were five, is a sign that this ruling is potentially precedent setting. We reached Gail Smith in Toronto.

CO: Ms. Smith, as you know, this case goes beyond your client, doesn't it? But just first of all, for your client, what's at stake in this Court of appeal hearing?

GAIL SMITH: What is at stake for Mr. Morris is what sentence will be reflected on his criminal record. At this particular juncture, the Crown has indicated that he is not seeking to have Mr. Morris re incarcerated, even if the court determines that, in fact, the sentence should be something longer.

CO: So he's already served his 12 month sentence, is that right?

GS: He has.

CO: So what's at stake in the larger scheme of things? Why are you pursuing this if it doesn't make any difference to his sentence?

GS: This was an opportunity for us to take a look at sentencing marginalised black persons. The fact that it's ordinarily not done in necessarily a just manner or it's not necessarily based on optimal information. As you may well be aware, black people are overrepresented in the criminal justice system and quite frequently they encounter much harsher sentences. So this was an opportunity to educate the court, if you will, and provide them with information such that Mr. Morris could garner a decent sentence.

CO: The Crown is appealing these sentences, isn't it? And their argument is that the sentence of 12 months for the crime of carrying a loaded concealed handgun in a public place, they called it a manifestly unfit sentence. They wanted at least four years for your client. And they have argued that the judge "had an overwhelming focus on systemic racism". What do you say to the crown?

GS: I'd say that, first of all, you cannot have an overwhelming focus on systemic racism because it is there. It is present. It is something that persons live with, particularly black persons live with on a daily basis. And to have actually recognised it, this is something that we're seeking to have the courts do on a more regular basis. His focus was on Mr. Morris and Mr. Morris's unique background had him situated such that the impact of the discrimination and the marginalisation that he had experienced, coupled with his own personal characteristics, made him an individual who warranted the sentence that he got.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about Kevin Morris and his background?

GS: Sure, well, Mr. Morris has lived a life of profound hardship, if you will. He's suffered intersectional experiences of socio economic disadvantage. Mental illness and systemic discrimination. He was raised by a single mother who did a wonderful job in the sense that she was able to provide for him. And she did the absolute best that she could. But Mr. Morris, based on some of his personal experiences, including having been the victim of extreme violence twice himself, is living with PTSD, paranoia. He's been diagnosed with also having dysphoria and anxiety. So he's come up in a neighbourhood where violence was the norm and he's had to endure a lot of his own personal tragedy.

CO: What already exists, aren't judges already supposed to take some of this into consideration with the people before them?

GS: Absolutely. Sentencing is supposed to be an individualised process. So they are supposed to, as you say, take into consideration the person who stands before them, but the person who stands before them doesn't do so in a vacuum. And, yes, judges have been instructed, if you will, by the Supreme Court of Canada in previous cases to take into account the individual and the circumstances. And so in doing so, they need to be able to take a look at whatever discrimination, whatever marginalisation has occurred. They cannot do so if they don't have a fulsome understanding of what that discrimination is and then how it applies to the individual who stands before them.

CO: You know that the trial judge said this is a quote, "I know that some may accuse me of being soft on crime". What do you say to those who would claim that, that this is giving some have said a get out of jail free card to people because of their backgrounds. What's your argument when they say that?

GS: Well, with all due respect, I'd have to tell them that they don't have an understanding of what's being proposed here. And part of that may be because they are not willing yet to acknowledge the extent of the situation and the experiences of black people here in Canada. I would bet you that if you spoke to, I don't know, eight out of 10 people on the street, they'd tell you that they were unaware that there had been slavery here in Canada. I bet you that some of those same people wouldn't be able to identify some of the contributions made by black scientists to the society here in Canada. So I say all of that to say that first and foremost, there has to be an acknowledgement of the discrimination. There has to be an acknowledgement of the conditions that have gone before. And once you've got an acknowledgement, then you can move towards an understanding. And once you have an understanding, then it can be properly applied in processes such as sentencing. I'm not suggesting for a minute that the principles of sentencing, be the deterrence or denunciation, shouldn't be taken into account. But you can't sentence an individual in a vacuum.

CO: What does your client think of being at the centre of what could be a precedent setting case?

GS: Well, Mr. Norris, he's a shy and humble individual and he's certainly not an attention seeker. So he's finding this somewhat overwhelming. But at the same time, he's happy, if you will, to be part of what is an important case that's not lost on him, that this is important and he's entrusted us to do the right thing.

CO: And we'll be watching. Ms. Smith, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

GS: Thank you very much.

SM: Gail Smith is one of the lawyers for Kevin Morris. She was in Toronto.

[Music: Bass and cymbals instrumental]

Skeleton Guitar Hoax

Guest: Ray Roa

SM: On As It Happens, we revel in the strange and the spectacular, which is why when we came across the story of the metal musician who said he turned his uncle's skeleton into a guitar, we had to get that guy on the phone. And his story was compelling. But there's something that is more important to us. Facts. After we went to air, the Tampa Bay Times threw water on our fire. They wrote that the musician Prince Midnight looks an awful lot like a local prankster. Ray Roa is the editor in chief of Creative Loafing, an alternative newsweekly in Tampa who has also been covering the story. We reached him in Tampa, Florida.

CO: Ray have we been duped.

RAY ROA: I don't want to be the person that says Santa Claus isn't real, but I do believe you've been duped. I say that with lots of guilt.

CO: Why do you say it with guilt?

RR: It's just such a fun thing. I mean, people need something fun right now. And, you know, why should the world be able to laugh and have an awesome time imagining somebody playing their dead uncle's skeleton as a skelecaster?

CO: And so. And this is it. Prince Midnight. It really was a big sensation here on, As It Happens as well, the story of this guy who apparently turned Uncle Fil's skeleton into his guitar, he even played a bit of it for us, by the way. So we just made it up. But who do you suspect Prince Midnight really is?

RR: You know, I didn't put it in our story just because, like I said, I didn't want to be that person. But The Times went ahead and put Justin Arnold's name in there and my suspicions were the same. Justin Arnold, calling him a prankster seems cheap. He's a performance artist, genius in a way. And really, I mean, aside from that, he's an amazing punk rock front man in a band called Feral Babies.

CO: [chuckle] Feral Babies, OK.

RR: Feral Babies is the name of the band, which is not together, but plays the occasional reunion show. They just did one in a small record shop called Microgroove here. And the photos from that are naturally incredible because Justin is an amazing person.

CO: OK, what are some of the other pranks that Justin Arnold... And with different names? Right. This Prince Midnight is just one persona. What are some of the others you suspect are the same person?

RR: Back in 2014, I would say this is like when it really blew up, he, Justin Arnold sent a photo of a two headed gator to our daily The Tampa Bay Times, which then ran it on the cover of their tabloid style weekly called TBT. I remember looking at the photo and thinking it was fake, but I'm not the editor there. So.

CO: And what's not to like about a two headed alligator, right? I mean, you like you'd put that in your cover and then people didn't question it. When did they start to question it?

RR: I think people immediately question it. I think that was what was so fascinating about that particular prank. I mean, the second you look at it, you're kind of like, oh, man, that thing does not look real. But, you know, you know how it is. In the news, sometimes you get caught up in things. The back story was so good, Justin Arnold is great at crafting these stories. And just for the record, he's still I still can't confirm from Justin that he is Prince Midnight.

CO: We often call this, facts too good to check here. And so what? That's the two headed an alligator is fairly, fairly simple. There are some really elaborate things that apparently this same guy did. Right. So tell us the one that got into the Guinness Book of Records.

RR: Yeah. So that was pretty cool because you're getting a ton of emails about Guinness World Records and those are always fun. Right? So not only does he have the longest fingernail extensions in the Guinness Book, but Odilon Ozare, as we call them in 2018, also got into the book for the world's tallest hat. That was pretty great as well.

CO: Right. So Odilon Ozare are you sure that that's the same as Justin Arnold of the Feral Babies.

RR: My gut says that it probably is. On record, no one can confirm it. Right. You'd have to do a DNA test, I suppose.

CO: OK, now, so let's get to Prince Midnight because I like to say, in fairness to those who cover the story, but we can't justify getting it wrong, which we did. But that was elaborate, right? He recorded an entire EP. He got it on Spotify. There was Prince Midnight Merch. He has had an Instagram going since September. So has he ever done something this elaborate before?

RR: I think in his head there probably all this elaborate. And you're right, this one was very well planned out. You know, we had the luxury of this one being a musical project which has all those moving parts that you mentioned. And he was actually a guest on a local show called Grand National Championships back in September. So locals probably should have known about Prince Midnight well before the Huffington Post picked it up.

CO: Again, just too much fun not to to actually probe a bit. But now we did sort of get suspicious and some people in the show started to try and get Prince Midnight to give us some details, like Uncle Fil's obit or where the hospital, where his bones were stored and that sort of thing. And we got a kind of cease and desist letter message back from Mr. Midnight saying it's reckless, libellous, really, of. The writer to publish false information, to say that that's not true, to publish, they resemble other people, insinuates that I'm a liar and caused me to get emails like this one. I'm going to forward this to my lawyers. So please do not message me anymore as I'm beginning to get very agitated. Now. OK, that was what we heard back. Is that part of the shtick or what do you make of that?

RR: I don't know. I don't know what to make of that. I did send an email to the Prince Midnight account and I haven't heard back. I mean, I suppose if it truly is somebody playing their dead uncles bones, they wouldn't want that story desecrated in that way. So, to answer your question, I have not received anything like that.

CO: So is it possible that this story could be true?

RR: Do I want it to be true 100 percent. No doubt. It's one of the greatest back stories and most metal things ever in the capital of death metal, Tampa, Florida. But. I would say I think it's a prank.

CO: All right, we're going to leave it there. Ray, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

RR: Thank you so much.

CO: Bye bye.

SM: Ray Roa is the editor in chief of Creative Loafing in Tampa, Florida. We also heard back from Odilon Ozare about reports that he is Prince Midnight. He wrote, No, I am not Prince Midnight, nor do I have any association with this person. I do not follow the news very closely, but would be interested in the proof these reporters presented to you that precipitated this enquiry. We have more on this story on our website, CBC.ca/AIH.

[Music: Pop Instrumental]

Sea cucumbers

SM: Sea cucumbers sound a whole lot cuter than they look, and while they do live in the sea, the whole cucumber thing is a bit of a red herring. They are better and more memorably described as walking colon's and not the punctuation, their fleshy tubes that hose up the seafloor and then do what a colon does best. They are to use the scientific term poop machines. But now we know that those machines are top notch, bringing a level of excellence to the field of excrement that has been deeply under excreciated. Ecologists have paid scant attention to sea cucumbers, a popular seafood dish believing they had little effect on reef health. But now, thanks to new research in the journal, Coral Reefs, more has come out about these creatures that stuff is always coming out of. Sea cucumbers are bio turbators, churning up the seafloor and releasing material other creatures rely on, and their turbs are enormous. The researchers looked at a single reef over one year and determined a collective output of roughly 64,000 metric tons, comparable to five Eiffel Towers, but less of a tourist draw. All of which means that without this species and its helpful feces, whole reef ecosystems would suffer, which means there is a constantly going concern.

[Music: Guitar instrumental]

Part 2: 10 years after the Arab Spring, this Egyptian family is still being targeted

Arab Spring Anniversary

Guest: Mona Seif

SM: Ten years after the Arab Spring, Mona Seif is still intensely worried for her family. During the revolution in Egypt, Ms. Seif's brother, a pro-democracy blogger, was imprisoned for speaking out against military authorities. Today, he is behind bars again after his arrest in September 2019. Her sister, Sanaa, is also in prison, detained last summer. All this a decade after the uprising that ousted Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak and promised change. When we last spoke with Mona Seif in November 2011, there was a protest outside the jail where her brother, Alaa Abd El-Fatah, was being held. Here's part of her conversation with Carol at the time.

CO: Ms. Seif, I know you saw your brother in prison earlier today. How is he?

MONA SEIF: He's OK. He's not, he's not at his best of conditions, but he's OK. I think after the visit, he felt a lot better than at the beginning of it because he's really in one of the worst prisons in Egypt. It doesn't have proper drainage or cleaning system and it's all full of insects and all sorts of diseases. But after we showed him all the newspapers and the coverage and we told him about how everyone is rising in support of him and his case, he acted very differently. And it looks as if he could see it was worth it.

CO: And was he aware of the demonstration outside the jail last night?

MS: He wasn't actually. His cell it turns out that it's really deep inside. It was away from where we were all chanting his name. But he was told by other prisoners who knew about it that there was a demonstration for him yesterday, but he didn't get the scale of numbers of people that were outside till we showed him photos in the newspapers this morning.

SM: That was Egyptian human rights activist Mona Seif speaking with Carol in 2011. We reached Miss Seif again in Cairo.

CO: Mona, we just heard you there almost 10 years ago, talking about, well the outcry over your brother's detention. What goes through your mind when you hear that now?

MS: I feel like I want to go back in time and pat the younger version of me and say, oh, poor you, you think he was in the worst prison ever? You don't know what's in store for all of you in the future. Wow. Yes. It's been 10 years, 10 years of struggling against the Egyptian regime and its brutality and of calling for the freedom of my brother and then my brother and sister and all the unjustly [inaudible]. So it's, it hits you hard when you hear your voice from such a long time ago and you remember. I remember when he was in this prison, I remember how I felt the conditions were horrible back then. But at the end of the interview, I tell you, we showed him newspapers. Alaa, now in total in maximum security prison has not been allowed any reading material for a year and five months.

CO: How is Alaa doing now? How is your brother doing now?

MS: Remarkably in spirit, he is doing quite well and far better than I would have expected. And it's quite inspiring. But he is in maximum security prison 2 in Tora, which is known amongst families as Scorpion two. He is in the worst conditions ever. He is locked in a cell with other inmates. He hasn't been allowed any time out of the cell for the past year and five months. So Alaa has been in prison since the end of September 2019. He's only allowed to go out if he has a court appearance or if he has a visit. But other than that, he's not allowed any time for exercises or walking. He's not allowed any time in the sun. So he hasn't been under the sun for more than a year. He's not allowed hot water to have a bath like things that seem so simple and they are available. It's not for the lack of availability. They have hot water in the same ward. He's just not allowed to access it.

CO: Wow. And when we spoke to you back in 2011, you can hear it in that clip. You were hoping he would be freed soon all that pressure of, all the attention, international attention on his case. And you thought he might be free in time to see his child born?

MS: Yes. He missed the birth of his child, but he was freed right after. But then what I didn't know is that Alaa would become one of the few names like others, like [inaudible] who would be constantly targeted by any regime that comes in power. And so he'll be back in prison again. And each time he goes back to prison, the conditions are harder or he faces a tougher ordeal. So Alaa was released after the talk I had with you back in 2011, but he was re-arrested again in 2013. He spent four or five years sentenced. And then six months later, even though he was on strict probation, he was re-arrested again. And it's not just Alaa, my sister, Sanaa as well. She's in prison now. This is the third time she goes to prison under Sisi's regime.

CO: Why isn't Sanaa? Why is your sister in prison?

MS: My sister is in prison this time because during the lockdown, they stop the visits to all prisons as a precautionary measure against covid-19. And with Alaa, they decided not to allow us letters or regular correspondence, and we couldn't get proper news of how he's doing, especially under the Corona. After, like months of struggle, we ended up staying in front of the prison and spending the night with my mother, demanding a letter to know how he's doing. And we were violently assaulted on June 22nd. And Sanaa it was abducted the next morning when we were going to general prosecutor to file a complaint and she was detained just like, you know, thousands of other activists and opposition figures in Egypt and youth who are being charged with the compiled list of ready-Made charges of terrorism and supporting terrorism. And you face a security prosecution and then you go into an endless loop of renewal of detentions. Sanaa is the only one now of the known political activist was actually facing court, criminal court.

CO: All right. So when we spoke with you 10 years ago, despite these arrests, you and your whole family, including your mother and father, you were all engaged in this struggle, this revolution, the Arab Spring. There was a bounce still in your step because you thought that you were going to bring change. And yet all this time in prison for members of your family, your father died without being able to have your sister and brother at his side. How is your mum doing through all this?

MS: She is impressive. She makes it possible for us to go on. I think she is part of why this regime is completely lashing out at us, because they can't believe that she still has the energy and the strength to stand up against them, you know, with her body and her voice and to stay in front of prison and go everywhere, talk about the conditions of prisoners, talk about other detainees. So she's managing. It's very tough and it's very bleak. And I think it's very different than 10 years ago, because ten years ago, as you were just saying, there was a bounce we felt. Empowered, there was a sense of something going to happen, something's going to change to the positive in the future. Now we are still going through the same struggle, but I think the feeling and the motivation is different. We are exhausted. We are more angry. We are more fed up. And it's more of a survival thing now for, at least for me and my family. It's not just about bringing change because I don't know if we are capable of that, but I do not see how else can we survive under Sisi's regime any other way. We have to stand out against what they are doing. We have to talk about what's happening to Alaa and Sanaa and thousands of others who don't get the chance to talk. And we have to use every ounce of energy we have to put pressure on that, either to change it, to join them, or to get out of here, whichever one comes.

CO: When we go back 10 years ago. I mean, this is almost to the day 10 years ago that Hosni Mubarak stepped down. It was, we spoke to people, many people that day, that week, just how extraordinary it was to be able to do that. And the whole Arab world thought, if you can bring down Hosni Mubarak, we can do it everywhere. How do you remember feeling that day?

MS: It was such an explosion of happiness. I was actually alone. I was going back towards Tahrir Square and when the news arrived to Tahrir Square and I suddenly started shouting and hugging, you know, people around me and everyone was crying. And then I started looking for my family and I felt like I really need to go see my parents because, like, this is a moment that they have been working for so hard for years. It was happy and empowering beyond anything and it promised of the future. And I don't know how to say this without sounding so cheesy, but. Despite what's happening, I'm glad I'm grateful to 2011 and everything that happened to me then and the people I got to know and the person I got to find them myself back then, it's just something that we have to finish, something that we have to at least try to finish. It's harder than we anticipated back then, but it has to be done.

CO: Mona, I admire your courage. Many people do, and they draw strength from your strength. And I really appreciate speaking with you again. Thank you.

MS: Thank you very much.

SM: Mona Seif is an Egyptian human rights activist. She was in Cairo. You can find more about her story on our Web page at CBC.ca/AIH.

Part 3: Arab Spring Documentary

Arab Spring Documentary

SM: Ms. Seif Was one of many people we spoke with a decade ago during the months long Arab Spring. At the end of that year, As It Happens, wove together the stories told to us by those who lived through those unprecedented events in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Syria. Tonight to revisit those voices and that time we bring you that documentary from 2011.

[CLIP FROM 2011]

[Loud chanting]

FEMALE VOICE: It's really bad out here everyone's getting killed. I mean, it's getting worse and worse right now.

FEMALE VOICE: They grabbed him from his throat, from his neck and started pulling him outside to the stairs.

MALE VOICE: You can kill people, but you cannot kill freedom and all of us were willing to die for what we believe in.

MALE VOICE: President Muhammad Hosni Mubarak has decided to waive the office of the president of the Republic.

FEMALE VOICE: This is a dream. My childhood dream came true.

FEMALE VOICE: Perhaps after the birth of my children. This is the best day of my life.

[Loud cheering]

JEFF DOUGLAS: Those are some of the voices you heard this year on, As It Happens, this year of change in the Arab world. During the last 12 months, in the midst of chaos, people on the ground told us their stories. Some were protesting, some were hiding in their homes, some waiting for the police to come and take them away. And some were celebrating the end of a dictatorship. Tonight, we will dig into our archives, taking you back to Egypt and Libya as their revolutions unfold. And we'll go to Syria, where the struggle is ongoing, but we will begin in Tunisia. That is where a 26 year old street vendor named Mohamed Bouazizi, fed up with being harassed by local officials, set himself on fire. His death inspired his countrymen and people across the Arab world. Here is lawyer and activist Ziad Shaheen speaking to Carol in January about the influence of Mr. Bouazizi and the Tunisian government's response to the resulting protests.

ZAID SHAHEEN: This simple and spontaneous act has encouraged all Tunisian citizens to go out on the streets and protest against the economic inequalities. Young Tunisian people, Right now, their path is hidden from them. They are trying to fight for their lives, to better their lives. And the authorities were deaf and they didn't allow them to protest even peacefully. They shot them. They killed them.

CO: The violence in Tunisia did not last for much longer. But before it was over, more than 200 people had died. Four days after we spoke with Mr. Shaheen, President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali was gone. He fled to Saudi Arabia and Tunisians took to the streets again, this time to celebrate, waving their hands in the air and shouting, Get out. [Loud chanting]

MALE VOICE: All he can say to each other, Mabruk, felicitations, and we are very, very happy. We have struggled a lot, all Tunisians. And finally, we win. Once again has proven that we deserve better. It's our God given right.

JD: In Egypt, though, Hosni Mubarak would not be dispatched quite so easily following Tunisia's lead, tens of thousands of Egyptians soon were gathering in Cairo's Tahrir Square, demanding change. First, the Egyptian president tried appeasing the protesters by forcing his cabinet to resign. That didn't work. Then when the army refused to side with him against the demonstrators, civilian thugs armed with sticks, knives and Molotov cocktails descended on the square. It would become known as the day of the camel because some of the Mubarak supporters who tried to crush the uprising charged the square on camelback. That didn't work either. Two days later, hundreds of thousands of people packed into Tahrir Square, the biggest rally yet.

[Loud chanting]

JD: Here's how a long time activist named Hossam Bahgat described the feeling amongst Egyptians to Carol.

CO: You have been doing this for years. Do you have a feeling that this is your moment?

HOSSAM BAHGAT: This is absolutely a new era. People who want to see real change in this country? Social change, political reform are the majority. Today I have this feeling with complete certainty. The people have now spoken and there is no going back. Now, we realise that change is within reach and Mubarak is simply wrong. If he thinks that by reshuffling the government or appointing a new technocrat to head the government, that people are going to go back to business as usual. This is a new era.

JD: Well, Mubarak was not ready to go. On February 10th, the army said that it was supporting the demands of the people. The president announced that he would make a televised address to the nation for that evening. Rumours spread that he was about to step down. People rushed to Tahrir Square to celebrate instead. This is part of what the millions watching heard from Hosni Mubarak in the background of Al Jazeera's translation of Mr. Mubarak's broadcast. You'll also pick up the sound from the network's live feed from Tahrir Square.

TRANSLATOR: I have lived for this nation, safeguarded my responsibility, and trust. It is the homeland of birth and death, it will remain a dear, beloved homeland. I will not separate from the soil until I'm buried underneath.

JD: The president reiterated his promise not to stand for re-election. He vowed to hold those responsible for the deaths of protesters to account. But unlike Tunisia's president, he would not go. As It Happens, spoke to several Egyptians involved in the protest movement that evening. Here's how Achmed Hassan, Musharraf Hanna, and Munir Abdelnour, reacted.

CO: What did you think when you heard what Hosni Mubarak said in the speech tonight?

VOICE 1: Disappointment. Disappointment. Everybody was expecting him to step down. The way people actually reacted. They started to take off their shoes and select, the biggest insult in Egyptian culture.

VOICE 2: What happened today? The insult of it standing there in Tahrir Square and listening with the crowd to the address. I was so disappointed. It was so insulting to the Egyptian intelligence.

VOICE 3: For sure, tomorrow the demonstrations will be bigger than they were today and yesterday, and the only way to stop the demonstration, the only way to have the youth go back home and work is that Mr. Mubarak leaves.

CO: The voices of three Egyptians involved in the protests, Mounir Abdelnour, Musharraf Hanna and Achmed Hassan, they're reacting to Hosni Mubarak's announcement on February 10th that he was not going to resign. The protesters would not be disappointed for long, though. The next day, February the 11th, Vice President Omar Suleiman spoke briefly on state television. And the reaction from the crowd in Tahrir Square and from the media was immediate.

TRANSLATOR: My fellow citizens, these hard circumstances, our country is experiencing. President Mohamed Hosni Mubarak has decided to waive the office of the president of the Republic and instructed the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces to run the affairs of the country. May God guide our steps.

MALE VOICE: It was just an utter scene of an explosion of emotion, happiness and joy, the people who have sacrificed their lives, limbs, so many more generations of Egyptians who have sacrificed all of that being realised in those 20 seconds.

FEMALE VOICE: The sense of euphoria here is simply indescribable. The moment the announcement was made, people were crying. Some people fell to their knees praying immediately on the floor. The tears are everywhere, the smiles, the dances, you would think that people were actually getting drunk, but they were simply stomping the asphalt with their own feet, homemade fireworks immediately from the balcony. Music, chanting, it's simply indescribable.

JD: A 20 second announcement followed by hours of jubilation. As It Happens, spoke to many people celebrating that day. One of them was Ayman Nour. He is an opposition leader who ran against Hosni Mubarak in the 2005 presidential election and was then jailed for four years. Mr. Nour spoke to Carol through a translator.

CO: Mr. Noor, what does this day mean for Egyptians blaming the former President Clinton?

AYMAN NOUR TRANSLATOR: Today is a beautiful day for all of Egypt and for all Egyptians. It is the greatest day we have ever seen. And I believe that we are starting a new page today.

JD: That was Egyptian activist Ayman Nour speaking to Carol through a translator. We reached another activist, Nawal El Saadawi. She was jailed during the presidency of Anwar El Sadat and lived in exile for many years. She returned to Egypt to take part in the anti Mubarak protests. Here's part of her conversation with Carol.

CAROL OFF: Ms. El Saadawi. Where were you when the announcement was made?

NAWAL EL SAADAWI: In the streets of Tehran dancing. We were dancing everywhere.

CO: And what was that moment like for you?

NAWAL EL SAADAWI: It's an inspiration. I had an intuition. I felt that he will step down either today or tomorrow maximum, and he stepped down because he could not continue.

CO: You were dancing with the young people. You are almost 80 years old.

NAWAL EL SAADAWI: Yes, I am 80 years old. But I was reborn and I felt young. The energy of the revolution amongst the young people. I felt young.

JD: Egyptian activist Nawal Saadawi speaking to Carol the day Hosni Mubarak resigned and decamped to the Egyptian resort town of Sharm el-Sheikh.

SM: You're listening to a documentary about the Arab Spring that first aired on As It Happens in 2011.

[Sitar instrumental]

JD: Well, Hosni Mubarak was reluctant to go making concessions, attempting to appease the crowds, Moammar Gaddafi was intractable. In mid-February, security forces in Benghazi arrested a human rights lawyer named Fathi Terbil. Mr. Terbil represented the families of the 12 hundred prisoners killed by Libyan authorities in 1996. His own brother died in that massacre. Because of his activism Fathi Terbil had been repeatedly arrested. This time was different, as he explained to Carol a few weeks later through a translator.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Terbil, when you were arrested, did you ever think that that arrest would lead to a revolution in Libya?

TRANSLATOR: No, I never imagined that would happen.

CO: What do you think happened to tell us if you understand what exactly came from your arrest?

TRANSLATOR: In my opinion, when I was arrested, There was already a lot of momentum from law activists, opposition groups and opposition members who live abroad. And there was already a lot of activity on Facebook and Twitter calling for mass protests on February 17th. So when I was arrested on the 15th, there was already a lot of momentum and protesters gathered outside of the security forces building to demand my release. And so that was how the protests began. They filled the streets and chanted, asking for change and for my release. And once the violence started and pro-Gadhafi forces attacked the protesters, that is when things began to spiral.

JD: Libyan lawyer Fathi Terbil, speaking to Carol about the start of the unrest in his country.

CO: Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi was incensed by the demonstrations. And within a week, 300 people were dead. The eastern part of the country was out of control, and that's when Colonel Gaddafi addressed the nation. His speech was long and angry. Here's part of it from our archives.

TRANSLATOR: Those who commit crimes against the army, anybody who shall be handed the death sentence, who works for a foreign country, that undermines the defence of the country. And when they are caught and prosecuted, they will be begging for mercy. And this time we will not be so merciful. This is my country, the country of my great grandfathers. I will not leave the country and I will die as a martyr.

CO: That was a defiant Colonel Gaddafi in a state television broadcast. Libya then descended into civil war. People fled to neighbouring Egypt and Tunisia. Rebel forces, made up of defectors from the army, along with untrained militias, did battle with Gaddafi's supporters. In cities like Tripoli and Misrata became war zones, Libyan soldiers sabotaged phone lines, making contact with the outside world for those under siege difficult, but thanks to a project out of California called Feb 17 Voices, Libyans were able to record messages online. Here are some of those voices from our archives.

FEMALE VOICE: Basically, we need help from everybody. We need support. We need medical aid. We need someone to stop this guy. He's sending in mercenaries from, we don't know where. It's really bad out here. Everyone's getting killed. I mean, it's getting worse and worse right now.

MALE VOICE: They're sending messages for us to go back to work, take care of our children and not to let them participate in this war. There's so much destruction in the city.

FEMALE VOICE: We still hear gunshots and it's getting bad. People are getting killed wherever they are in the street. They're getting killed. One of my cousins is a doctor and he had to go to the hospital. They were sent back because they were shooting, they were shooting the doctors and people at the hospital. And it's really bad, really bad right now.

JD: One eighteen year old woman in Tripoli whose name we withheld for her safety spoke to us via Skype.

CO: Can you tell me, first of all, what is your life like these days in Tripoli?

FEMALE VOICE: Well, it's definitely very stressful. There's always a sense of anxiety and sense of urgency. You can't go to sleep at night. You just can't, you always feel like something's just about to happen. A bomb is going to fall over your house with all the airstrike rumours. You're always just ready for anything to happen at any moment. We don't leave the house anymore. We don't see anyone anymore, except for our neighbours. I mean, it's all by phone if you can get a connection on the line that's about it.

CO: As a young person like yourself, what does this moment mean to you?

FEMALE VOICE: For me, the most important thing is that after this, when we're finally free, hopefully. That means I can get up in the morning and decide for myself what I want to do. And that's the most important thing. Just have the freedom to decide, the freedom to speak up to something that's wrong. That's basically all I want. And all most Lybians want.

CO: I appreciate you speaking with us very much. Thank you.

FEMALE VOICE: Thank you. Bye, bye

JD: Life was dangerous in Tripoli, even more so on the front lines. Young men, many who had never held a gun before, were joining the rebels to fight Gaddafi's soldiers. Many of them would die. In March Carol spoke to a man named Osama in Benghazi. His two sons held both Libyan and American citizenship when the war broke out. They decided to forgo the safety of the United States. One of them died in the fighting.

CO: Osama, first of all, I'm so sorry about your son.

OSAMA: Thank you very much. Thank you.

CO: You are right now holding some kind of a funeral service for him.

OSAMA: I don't call it a funeral. I call it a celebration because I consider my son, even if he is dead, not for me, he's alive.

CO: You must get a sense from his death of what the rebels, what the opposition is up against fighting Colonel Gadhafi. He has tremendous firepower. First of all, having your son die is so tragic. But are you discouraged by what you know you're up against in this fight?

OSAMA: Absolutely not. You can kill people, but you cannot kill freedom. And all of us, we are willing to die for what we believe in. And my son, he is the talk of the whole of Benghazi city now because he showed all the young people how a person like my son, a wonderful guy, very respectful, very nice, very polite, loved by everybody. I mean, we had people coming from all over the place. You know, just to come and see what's going... [crying]

CO: I'm so sorry.

OSAMA: And we thought we were courageous. We don't even... An inch of his courage, we are your son has taught us how to sacrifice. And I tell you something, and this is really true. From my experience since this revolution came, on the17th, I flew out of Charlotte, Chicago, Istanbul, Benghazi, and I was here on the 19th and that was the last plane. And since that day, I felt something I had never, ever felt that I can see the blue sky as it is blue. I could never have felt the sea. As beautiful as it is, even the way we smile, it's different. Even the way we breathe air. It's different, you know, and that's, that we will never, ever give up this feeling.

CO: I know. I know you have another son who wants to go and fight like his brother did. What are you telling him?

OSAMA: That you know, one, because that will devastate his mother and maybe his mother will do something crazy. I said to him, there is a different way that we can struggle with this dictatorship.

CO: Osama, I'll let you return to your guests. I know this is a very poignant time for you. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

OSAMA: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Goodbye

CO: Good night.

JD: That was Osama, whose last name we withheld for his safety. Speaking with Carol in March. It was becoming clear that rebels on their own would not be able to defeat Colonel Gaddafi, the interim government that they formed, the National Transitional Council asked the international community for help in the form of a no fly zone. After weeks of debate, the UN Security Council passed a resolution authorising intervention to protect civilians, and soon NATO planes were dropping bombs over Libya. Yet Moammar Gaddafi would not be easily defeated. Fierce fighting continued in places like Misrata. That is when we reached the head of the NATO mission, Canadian Leftenant General Michael Bouchard.

CO: Leftenant Colonel Bouchard, it seems that initially the NATO mission was cheered and celebrated because it did manage to stop the killing and to stop the advance on Benghazi. Now it appears the NATO mission is stuck. What is the plan now that you have actually been able to stop the advance?

MICHAEL BOUCHARD: I think we must look at it, not individual points, but rather as a campaign that extends all over Libya and we were able to stop the advance and to bring the violence to an end in the Benghazi and Ajdabiya area. And of course, Misrata is of concern to me. There's not a day goes by that I don't think of the people that are out there that need assistance. But conversely to that, it's a difficult situation and that it's very fluid. The regime forces have opted to use tactics that make it even more difficult for us to intervene, especially in the close quarters in the cities. The regime forces have used snipers on top of mosques. They're hiding beside hospitals. They've got their armoured vehicle beside schools. And in fact, they've even taken their uniforms off.

CO: But so Colonel Gaddafi then is playing to NATO's weaknesses? He knows that the NATO members have agreed only to what you're doing now, and that his strategy is a winning one if NATO doesn't change its approach.

MB: At this point, I would rather not divulge the rest of my strategy in my plan. But I can tell you that there's a lot more activities going on in behind and all the fronts that we have out there.

CO: So how much time do you think you've got?

MB: As much time as the Gadhafi regime chooses to see the light and really to stop attacking the civilian population.

CO: General Bouchard, I'll let you get back to your work. And I thank you for giving us this time.

MB: Thank you very much. Have a good day.

CO: You too. Bye bye.

JD: That was Leftenant General Michael Bouchard, the head of the NATO mission to Libya, speaking to Carol in April.

CO: As the fighting continued, some of the young men who had taken up arms in Misrata began to write music inspired by the uprising. The band they formed is called FB 17, after February 17th, the day the revolution began. This is one of those songs called No More Lies.

[Music: No More Lies]

JD: That was No More Lies, a song by a Misratah band called FB 17. That song became an anthem of the Libyan uprising. While Libyans were fighting a civil war. In Syria the crackdown on dissent was unrelenting at the beginning of the Syrian uprising, As It Happens, was able to connect fairly easily to activists on the ground there. People like Haitham Al Maleh, a veteran critic from Damascus who had recently been released from jail because of his age. Here's part of what he told Carol about the protests in Syria on April 1st.

Mr. Al Maleh, we know that several people were shot dead today in Syria, including a girl. The protesters are calling this the day of martyrs. Can you tell us what you've learnt about what happened in Syria today?

HAITHAM AL MALEH: That is right, in most cities in Syria, in some cities is circled by the army in several cities, there are some people killed. The regime pushed the country to a kind of civil war.

CO: Can you just tell me why it's so important to you, why you have kept up with the struggle for all these years? You yourself.

HAITHAM AL MALEH: This is like heroin in my blood. You know, I do not like the smooth life. I always want to be a struggler. I believe in changing. I believe in freedom and democracy. I am pushing not from now 50 years. I'm fighting to give freedom to my nation, to my people in Syria. I want to work within all of us together to change our country, a good country, to a peaceful country, beautiful country as it is before.

CO: Mr. Al Maleh, I hope you stay safe and it's really good to talk to you. Thank you.

HAITHAM AL MALEH: Thank you too. Bye.

JD: That was Syrian activist Haitham Al Maleh speaking to us in April. Before long, it became difficult, if not impossible, to reach people inside Syria. Phone lines were jammed. Foreign journalists and observers were barred from the country. Dissidents had to smuggle their message out via clandestine cell phone videos, emails and Internet calls.

CO: And since the protests in Syria began, the army has killed thousands of people across the country in places like Damascus, Daraa, Homs and Hama, security forces have taken over hospitals, setting up jails there, and that's forced injured protesters to go underground for medical treatment. But the Syrians who are pushing for President Bashar al-Assad to go have been unrelenting. By June, a song taunting the president had become the soundtrack at regular Friday demonstrations in cities like Hama. No one was quite sure who wrote it, but almost everyone knew lyrics like this: "Come on, Bashar, leave damn you and your speech. Freedom is right at the door".

SM: You're listening to a documentary about the Arab Spring. One we first brought you 10 years ago, when people from Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and beyond united in the streets demanding change. We return now to the story of what unfolded in Syria.

JD: The crowd at a protest in Hama in June singing "Come on, Bashar, leave". But of course, he didn't. And now such protests have given way to something that looks much more like guerrilla war. Civilians have set up barricades to defend their neighbourhoods from invasion by the military. And in recent months, there have been reports of soldiers defecting to form a resistance force called the Free Syrian Army.

CO: The upheaval in North Africa and the Middle East has been labelled the Arab Spring. But as spring faded in the year wore on, a time of reckoning began. In Libya, the rebels finally pushed west to Tripoli, driving Moammar Gadhafi and his supporters out of the capital. Not without a fight, though. For days in late August, people heard gunfire throughout the city and over the phone from Tripoli on As It Happens, guest host Jim Brown reached a British nurse named Karen Graham working at a hospital not far from the fighting.

JIM BROWN: Ms. Graham, that shelling sounds very close. Are you concerned at all? Are you concerned at all for your safety?

KAREN GRAHAM: Oh, well, that was one of the big ones. Sometimes you feel, you know, the building shakes and now there's that bullet hole in the bedroom window from yesterday morning. That actually entered [inaudible] from inside. I'll go into the bathroom for this.

JB: Ms. Graham, please let me know if you feel you have to leave.

KG: No, no, no. It's absolutely fine. I'm inside. I'm inside. I'm perfectly safe.

JB: Has the hospital come under attack at all?

KG: Not under attack, but we have sustained damage from stray bullets. And the rebels, they've actually entered the compound yesterday and were using our compound to fire from and which we had a great issue because obviously that would draw fire on to potential patients. So we asked them to leave.

JB: Now, you could have left once this conflict started. Why did you decide to stay?

KG: Because I've got a job to do. I mean, They employed me to be a nurse and look after these people, and you can't just leave them they actually really need you. I'm in examination, you know, I've had a little bit of training. And I know that these people really do need me. And now I know they really need the support. They need trained staff to look after them. If we'd all left all the experts, [inaudible] it just would not it wouldn't be open. And with 120 beds half of that facility would be gone.

JB: Will you continue to stay in Libya?

KG: Yes, Libya is a really nice place and it's lovely. I mean, despite your having black smoke on the horizon, I can see the Mediterranean from my window. And, you know, people are very genuine. I don't have an issue with Libya. It's just obviously going through a very difficult time. And we're just hoping that very, very soon it'll return to some form of normality.

JB: Well, Miss Graham, I hope tomorrow it is finished. And thanks so much for joining us.

KG: It's no problem.

JB: Goodbye now.

KG: Bye.

JD: Karen Graham, a British nurse in Tripoli, speaking with, As It Happens, guest host Jim Brown on August 24th. The fall of Tripoli was the beginning of the end for Moammar Gadhafi. He retreated to his hometown of Sirte. And that is where on October 20th, fighters under the command of the National Transitional Council found him. This is what the initial moments of celebration by his captors sounded like.

JD: It's still unclear exactly how Colonel Gadhafi died, but his captors put him in a vehicle and brought him to Misrata. By the time he arrived there, he and one of his sons, captured with him, were dead. Saleh Abdulaziz was there to get a look at the corpses and he spoke to Carol from the site.

CO: Mr. Abdulaziz, can you describe the scene where you are?

SALEH ABDULAZIZ: Well, I am now in the centre of Misurata City, the body of Gadhafi and his son are laid in a lorry. So many people, thousands and thousands of people have gathered. Everyone is trying to get nearer to the body to see where the two bodies are laid. People are very happy in the city. They are chanting, dancing. They are singing, it is a very victorious day of freedom in Libya.

CO: Just so I understand, you have seen the bodies then?

SA: I have seen the two bodies. Yes.

CO: What did the bodies look like when you saw them?

SA: The bodies looked like two ugly faces. They were thrown without respect into the lorry and they were covered with a white sheet.

CO: Thrown without respect into the lorries.

SA: Yes.

CO: Why is it important for you to see the corpses?

SA: I don't know why everybody's trying to see the body, because maybe they wanted to be certain that Gadhafi is dead. Gadhafi has been having a stronghold on Libya for 42 years. So I think that is very, very psychologically going to be very important for everybody. I don't know people usually because of their religion, they respect the dead bodies, but exceptionally, this is not the case. Everywhere, everyone is saying he is a dog, this is a dead dog, maybe because they hate them that much. They're not to think of him as a human body. I mean, this is a very frustrating situation. Everyone is trying to see him.

CO: All right, Mr. Abdulaziz, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

SA: Thank you very much.

CO: Good night.

SA: OK, OK, good night.

JD: That was Saleh Abdulaziz speaking to Carol from Misrata, where the corpses of Moammar Gadhafi and his son Mutassin were on display on the day of their deaths. NATO forces ended their mission in Libya just days later. During the course of the campaign, Canadian fighter jets dropped hundreds of bombs. The National Transitional Council has now taken over and is preparing the country to write a new constitution and to vote in elections.

CO: And next door in Tunisia, people voted in their first free ballot in decades. While the October election was considered fair, many of the activists who led the revolution ran as independents and lost.

JD: And in Egypt, the army has been in charge as a caretaker government. But some of those who protested to push Hosni Mubarak out say that the commanders have overstepped their mandate by putting thousands of people on trial before military tribunals. And they fear that the army is trying to consolidate its power and put itself beyond the control of any future civilian government. So as parliamentary elections approached late last month in Egypt, protesters took to Tahrir Square again. And that is where we reached Nazli Hussein on November 21st.

CO: Ms. Hussein, can you describe the situation in Tahrir Square tonight?

NAZLI HUSSEIN: I've been at Tahrir Square for the past three days and the situation. Hasn't changed much if anything, it has escalated. There is an excessive use of force and the security forces have been using teargas, a lot of teargas, rubber bullets, pellet bullets and live ammunition. I was wounded myself two days ago. I spent a day or two at the makeshift hospital and the injuries that were arising were semi-serious mostly in the face or around that area.

CO: You said the injuries to the face. We've heard this as well, that a lot of people are getting hurt in the face or the head area. Are they being targeted in that way?

NH: That is absolutely. And I have absolutely no doubt that they've had clear instructions to target young people's faces and eyes. It's going to get a bit louder because people are running towards me but it's OK.

CO: And why are they running toward you?

NH: Because they're being chased down by either the teargas... I hear them, there is more teargas. I have the mask so I'm okay. [Pause] I'm still with you.

CO: Are you OK?

NH: Yes I am.

CO: Do you need to get to some place? Do you need to get out of that situation or can we continue to talk?

NH: I'm wearing my mask and helping people out with first aid. I am wounded so I can't be in the front lines.

CO: What's going on right now?

NH: We are being teargassed.

JD: We lost the line at that point, but we reached Nazli Hussein a few minutes later confirming that she was all right.

CO: Elections in Egypt began a week later and will continue into the New Year. Although the voting is not yet complete, it appears that the Islamist parties will get a majority of seats in the new parliament. There have been more clashes between security forces and protesters in Tahrir Square.

JD: In Syria, the struggle continues violently. Just a few days ago, we reached Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, a reporter for The Guardian. He had just returned from Banesh in northern Syria. We reached him in Istanbul.

CO: Ghaith, we've spoken with members of the opposition in Syria and they say that the only option now is to take up arms against the Syrian regime. Is that any closer to actually happening?

GAITH ABDUL-AHAD: It's basically a two-tier kind of system happening at the moment every Friday, every night. Basically, the current administration is calling for the toppling of the regime. And then at the same time every male member of that town, every single man in that town is armed and they're trying to protect themselves.

CO: And what kind of military success are they seeing with this town or village organisations?

GAITH ABDUL-AHAD: None whatsoever. I mean, relatively speaking, the problem at the moment is the whole demonstrations, the whole uprising is disintegrating into an insurgency and insurgency without the hierarchy of leadership.

CO: You've seen these insurgencies elsewhere. You've also seen the regime crack down on these kinds of uprisings. How would you characterise this one. How brutal is the crackdown on the part of the Syrians?

GAITH ABDUL-AHAD: I've never seen anything like the Syrians. It is the humiliation, the torture. It's very, very brutal. This regime has been equipping itself, arming itself for the past 40 years for a day like this hasn't been arming to fight the Israeli, it's been arming for a day like this. So it will be a long, long war. And the problem in these towns and villages, they're sitting there waiting for the no fly zone. They're waiting for a safe haven imposed by Turkey or someone else. They're flipping through the channels when they are not fighting.

CO: Waiting for NATO.

GAITH ABDUL-AHAD: Waiting for NATO, waiting for Turkey, waiting for anyone they truly like. We welcome any army from the Israeli and the Syrian, that's likely delusional. They think that the [inaudible] will come helping them as they did with the Libyans. And they think that a no fly zone will be imposed within the next few weeks. So I see a long, brutal war happening in Syria at the moment.

CO: All right. Ghait, on that despairing note, I will leave it and we'll speak again, I'm sure. Thank you.

GAITH ABDUL-AHAD: Thank you.

SM: That was Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, a reporter for The Guardian, speaking to Carroll in December of 2011. A few nights later, a Syrian activist sent us audio from a demonstration in Homs. Here is what it sounded like.

[Loud chanting]

February 15, 2021 Episode Transcript

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