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The AIH Transcript for October 19, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Ali Hassan

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

ALI HASSAN: Good evening. I'm Ali Hassan, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

AH: Tonight:

CO: Damage control. As Nova Scotia’s lobster fishing dispute gets even more tense, we ask Indigenous Services Minister Marc Miller how much longer both sides need to wait for his government to come to the table?

AH: Approval rating. Many police unions in the United States have endorsed Donald Trump. But some Black officers are speaking out saying taking the president's side is a betrayal.

CO: Herd mentality. Sweden famously took a more hands-off approach to COVID-19 restrictions. Officials there say it's working. But our guest says the numbers tell a different — and much darker — story.

AH: After Friday's murder of a school teacher in France, critics say French authorities are blaming a whole Muslim community for the crime of one.

CO: Deja-flu. People in Ontario are facing another set of long lines, tricky appointments and short supplies. This time, the trouble is with flu shots — something one doctor calls unacceptable.

AH: And... heavy hitter. Many in the elite echelons of big-vegetable growing have gone high-tech. But our guest kept it. Old school didn't put his prized pumpkin anywhere near a scale before competition day.

AH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that always strives to be ahead of the carve.

Part one: Nova Scotia fishing minister, Sweden COVID fail, California giant pumpkin

Nova Scotia fishing minister

Guest: Marc Miller

AH: The federal government is scrambling to stop a volatile situation in Nova Scotia from getting even worse. After violence and threats from non-Indigenous fishermen last week, a lobster pound was burned to the ground in a suspicious fire over the weekend. At issue is Mi'kmaq fishermen asserting their right to operate a 'moderate livelihood' by harvesting lobster outside of the commercial season. That's what a court granted more than 20 years ago in 1999 as a treaty right. Non-Indigenous fishermen in southwestern Nova Scotia say that kind of harvest is ecologically unsound and jeopardizes lobster stocks. Marc Miller is Canada's Indigenous Services Minister. We reached him in Ottawa.

CO: Minister Miller, it seems that there's one point that all sides in this bitter dispute agree on, and that's that the federal government has failed everyone, Indigenous fishermen, commercial fishermen, the conservation groups. Well, you accept responsibility?

MARC MILLER: Well, Carol, I think there is a point where we have to acknowledge the fault lines that still do exist with respect to the implementation of the Marshall decision. To say that nothing has been done in 20 years would be factually wrong. Yet, that's probably cold comfort to the Mi’kmaq people today, who feel under attack and under assault. And physically, they're at risk, particularly in the water where it can get quite dangerous.

CO: But don't you think that it’s not just the Indigenous fishermen? Everyone we've spoken with believes the federal government needs to step in and do something. And it's not just one side against the other. The one thing they do agree on is that that this has been messed up by the federal government.

MM: Well, look, we could sit around and examine failure over, not only decades but centuries. And nothing would get done. In the last few weeks, obviously, everyone has reacted with legitimate horror over what shouldn't happen in any country, let alone Canada. And obviously, there's a need to act. And that is why Minister Blair, in particular, has agreed to the request of the government of Nova Scotia to reallocate the resource of the RCMP to make sure everyone stays safe. Obviously, law and order has to be retained. The Mi’kmaq people have been let down by the police. And we saw that on Saturday morning as everyone woke up to see a fish plant in flames. And then prior to that, the assaulters of Chief Sack.

CO: But on that point, on the RCMP having let the Indigenous people down, the RCMP is a federal police force. So the finger gets pointed back again at your government. So you say that somehow this independent police force has failed, where has been the resources, where has been the mandate for them to have stepped in? That's what we heard from Chief Sack, that’s what we heard from other people and non-Indigenous fishermen who have said that they had been threatened. They're looking to the RCMP and they're not seeing the mandate or the resources there.

MM: Well, look, I think it's important to set the record straight on how the RCMP works. It is actually a delegated police force in Nova Scotia, which then, therefore, falls under the authority of the Nova Scotia government. Again, cold comfort for people who feel betrayed by it and they expect the federal government to step up. And that is why we have stepped up. There have been two arrests. There are many investigations ongoing. We need to let that increase in police force protect people that haven't necessarily felt protected by police. And then over the next days continue those difficult nation-to-nation discussions that need to happen in order to perfect the right that has been acknowledged in the Marshall decision. But the hard work needs to be done outside the public eye with the Mi’kmaq people. But it has to be done in a peaceful sense of order. And that hasn't been the case in the last week.

Right. I want to talk about this moderate livelihood, which is what you’re speaking about. And that's the right that the courts gave. And you say nation-to-nation talks to resolve how that is actually applied. That's what also the court said. And so who else is at the table? I mean, when we spoke with the non-Indigenous fishermen last week, the times we've spoken with them, they think they should be at the table, too, that they have a place. Are you including them in your discussions?

MM: Well, there is a time and place and a sequence for this. In nation-to-nation discussions, there is no place for third parties. There is absolutely no question, at the same time, that there is a greater discussion to be had about the state of the fishing industry. And I want to make clear that the Indigenous portion of the fishing industry is minuscule in the grand scheme of things. Yet, there is concern, obviously, about conservation, about regulation, and those are discussions at some point that will have to be had with commercial fishermen. But the key aspect in all this is it has to be done in an atmosphere of peace and order, which hasn't been afforded to date.

CO: In September, your colleague, Minister Jordan, put out a statement saying that fishing without a license is a violation under the Fisheries Act. And anyone fishing outside the activities authorized under a license may be subject to enforcement action. But your message now is that the Mi’kmaq do have a clear right to fish. Do you understand how confusing this mixed message is coming from the government, which is again pointing back this idea why people are saying that that you have let them down?

MM: Look, the Mi’kmaq people absolutely do have a right to pursue a moderate livelihood. They have been at odds with the Department of Fisheries and Ocean for some time. And this is a right that has been tested throughout time with success at times and not in others. Again, it's no way for people to have the right perfected is to have to go to court all the time. That's entirely unacceptable in a country like Canada. Yet, here we are. And so how do we resolve these as a government where, yes, people expect us to condemn acts that are untoward and should never happen and are violent in nature. They also expect us to act and sit down at the table. That's precisely what we did. Minister Jordan and I and Carolyn Bennett had an opportunity yesterday morning to speak with the Assembly of Nova Scotia Mi’kmaq Chiefs to parse out and work out how that path forward might look. And while we can't guarantee the outcome, we are dedicated to pushing this forward in an expedient timeframe.

CO: There was a call from Chief Sack to bring in the Army, that he doesn't feel that the RCMP is doing the job. You just said yourself, they've let down the Indigenous people. We've seen it at Oka, we’ve seen it happen before in Quebec. Will you consider, is your government considering, sending in the army?

MM: Well, I think you could use the Oka analogy, but I'd remind you of that ten years earlier, there was also Listuguj people. There are many Indigenous people that don't feel safe with the army around as well. And Oka being a precise example of that. Now, the job of the armed forces should not be confused with the job of the police, which is to serve and protect and keep people safe in the community. Right now, we have assurances from the Nova Scotia government that they do have the resources to keep the situation under control. And we expect that to happen.

CO: Right, but if they have those resources, why haven't they been doing it up to now?

MM: Well, that's a question we can absolutely examine. And I, like many Canadians, would absolutely like some answers. I suspect you could probably say that a few policemen can easily get overwhelmed by a mob, but perhaps there's a failure of intelligence on the ground. Those are issues that we obviously should examine. But right now, we are in the middle of a situation that is volatile, particularly my fear on the water. And resources have, and will, continue to be reallocated to keep people safe.

CO: Just very briefly, yes or no, is your government considering Chief Sack’s request that you do send in the army?

MM: I think this is something that we have to assess on the ground on a continuous basis as we look to keep people safe. I think this is an expression of trying to keep people safe. And I have the assurances currently, that people are are are now in a situation where peace can be maintained. And that is the proper role of the police.

CO: OK, but you're not ruling it out?

MM: The role of the police is to keep the peace, and we expect it to be done.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Minister Miller, thank you.

MM: Thank you.

AH: Marc Miller is Canada's Indigenous Services Minister. He's in Ottawa.

Sweden COVID fail

Guest: Lena Einhorn

AH: Eight months into this global pandemic — and Sweden's health authority appears now to be tinkering with its COVID-19 strategy. Today, health authorities will start telling people to avoid places such as shopping malls, gyms, and concerts — and to avoid public transport or visiting the elderly. Those are new measures, to Sweden. Last spring, all eyes were on tne Nordic country. As other countries locked down, Swedes were living life as usual. School and work went on. There was talk of "herd immunity." But the experiment has failed. The latest data shows Sweden's per capita death rate from COVID-19 is the 12th highest in the world. Lena Einhorn is a virologist, author and filmmaker in Sweden — and one of dozens of people who is calling for tougher measures. We reached her in Stockholm.

CO: Ms. Einhorn, is the Swedish government finally willing to admit that its approach to tackling COVID-19 has failed?

LENA EINHORN: I haven't seen any such signs, no.

CO: You think they'll just continue as they are?

LE: Well, there have been incremental changes in the recommendations. There has never been, and I doubt there ever will be, any kind of admission of having made mistakes.

CO: Right, but it does seem that the Swedish government is handing power back to regional health authorities to make its own decisions. So is that a good sign?

LE: Well, it's not really regional, it's actually the public health agency, which is a national expert agency. There is a tradition in Sweden to do this, but in very extreme crises, the government can take over fully. And they definitely have not. So it's not a good sign.

CO: If you were to describe Sweden's approach to tackling the coronavirus, what words would you use?

LE: [laughing] I don't know. Stubborn is probably the best word I can come up with. I mean, when they started, their initial assumptions were fair. They assumed that this would be like SARS. They were convinced it's only spread from symptomatic people. So like SARS, you could isolate the symptomatic people and stop the spread that way. So that was fair. You know, sometime in January, it was not fair in April or in May. So they stuck to that. And one could say that when the spread, really when it really hit Europe and Sweden, they did the opposite of our Scandinavian and Nordic neighbours who went into lockdown and we did not. They told people who are not symptomatic when they came back from risk areas in Italy and such to go back to work, and they had to go back to school.

CO: There was an idea that we heard from coming from Sweden in the spring, and I guess it continued that Sweden would attempt something called herd immunity, that if enough people were to contract the virus, then eventually there would be a general immunity enough within the population, that it would have a better effect than locking things down and keeping people from getting it. Is that what happened?

LE: Well, this was the second stage. Once the cases went through the roof, and they really did. For a few weeks, Sweden had the highest per capita death numbers in the world. So what do they do? Well, they don't back down. They don't go into lockdown. They don't put on restrictions that other countries did. So it has been assumed that they were going for herd immunity. But they've been speaking through two sides of their mouths. On the one hand, they've been denying it. On the other hand, they said it would be a bonus. And they said that come fall, and the second wave, we will be much better protected than our Scandinavian neighbours, who had ten times less deaths than we did in relation to population. But it became very clear once broad testing of antibodies was being done that there was nothing close to herd immunity. I mean, Sweden, the latest numbers I saw, Sweden has between six and eight per cent antibody positivity in the population and Stockholm has around 12 per cent. Of course, they realize that they can't go for herd immunity. It's going to kill too many people. I mean, it's already killed almost 6,000 people in a population of ten million.

CO: At the centre of all of this, as we have followed what's going on in Sweden, is a man named Anders Tegnell, Sweden's chief epidemiologist. And he seems to be a bit of a rock star in your country for the decisions he made. People have tattoos of him. Why is he so popular?

LE: Part of it, I'm sure, is that when there is a national crisis, people want to believe in authority. Everywhere they want to do it. The other aspect is that he has a very calming demeanour. Even when the numbers were going through the roof, he kept saying that we're flattening out. We're hitting the peak. He had a way of sounding extremely calming. In combination with the fact that the government handed over all decision making basically to Tegnell and the public health agency. Those were contributing factors.

CO: And what do you think of Anders Tegnell?

LE: [laughing] I have no opinions about him personally. But I think he has not handled this well. And he keeps on not handling this well. But, you know, just as an example, Sweden is the only country together with Somalia, Yemen, Eritrea, Syria, Greenland and some Pacific islands who have still no recommendations for facemasks whatsoever. So, you know, he hates face masks. He says they don't help. You have to understand, in the Swedish hospitals, the doctors and nurses do not wear face masks.

CO: And that's because they are told not to, or because they believe it won’t make any difference?

LE: They referred to the public health agency when they motivated. It's hard to wear a face mask when nobody else wears it. And when doctors are asked in an official capacity, why don't you wear a face mask? Why don't you tell your staff to wear face masks? They always refer to the public health agency.

CO: There is a Freedom of Information, bunch of emails that are being published by journalists in your country that show that Mr. Tegnell said that at one point that when it was suggested that 10 per cent of those that would get the disease would be the elderly and maybe they would die, ten per cent might be worth it, he apparently said. How much of the decisions are being driven by this idea that, well, maybe we have to keep Sweden moving, keeping the businesses open. And that's part of the motivation.

LE: You know, they will never admit that the economy is an aspect. By the way, Sweden's economy has not fared any better than its Nordic neighbours. We have ten times as many dead as Norway and Finland per capita and five times as many as Denmark. I mean, these are horrendous numbers that we have. And there’s no benefit from it. You know, the numbers are now rising again in the fall and they're rising more in Sweden than in our neighbours.

CO: Yikes! All right. We'll leave it there. Ms. Einhorn, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LE: Thank you very much.

CO: All right. Goodnight.

LE: Good night.

AH: Lena Einhorn is a virologist, author and filmmaker in Sweden. You can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

California giant pumpkin

Guest: Travis Gienger

AH: Sometimes, it's worth going that extra mile or even lots of extra miles. What if, say, you'd managed to grow a truly ginormous gourd. You might take a good look at that pumpkin of enormous proportions and just know: you're ready for the big leagues. Which, in this case, is the 47th annual Safeway World Championship Pumpkin Weigh-Off. A prize whose prestige is matched only by its payout — seven U.S. dollars per pound. And that can add up to a pretty penny. All of which explains why Travis Gienger loaded up his growing project — and made the trip from Anoka, Minnesota to Half Moon Bay, California. We reached Mr. Gienger in Anoka.

CO: Travis, what's it like being on a road trip with a giant pumpkin?

TRAVIS GIENGER: [laughing] It was actually kind of stressful. Because if it cracks at all, you get nothing. You're completely disqualified. So every bump, every turn, you’re kind of white-knuckling it, so to speak.

CO: [both chuckling] And what kind of rig were you transporting the pumpkin in?

TG: So I had my truck, and dump trailers is what we actually brought it in. So we had to kind of make some adjustments to make the suspension where it should be by adding some extra weight and putting the pallet on air ride, and yeah.

CO: Because you didn't want it bouncing around back there?

TG: Exactly. Exactly.

CO: [chuckling] And so any encounters along the way with your pumpkin? Were people asking you questions about it?

TG: Yeah. So the funny thing is, is on the way out, we had it all tarpped and wrapped so it wouldn't lose weight. On the way back, we did not. But on the way there, people were wondering at every gas station why we had wet blankets down and this and that. [CO laughing] They're like, are you transporting a dolphin? [both laughing]

CO: Okay, let’s just still get you to the competition. You had to get to Half Moon Bay, California with your pumpkin, right?

TG: Yup. Yup. About a 35-hour road trip.

CO: And had you weighed it ahead of time, did you have an idea of whether you had --

TG: No, we didn't. We had all the technology to pre-weigh it. And actually, the growers thought I was kind of crazy to not pre-weigh it and just go out there ‘cause it can go quite a bit heavier. It could go quite a bit light. But I'm like, you know what? That's half the fun of it.

CO: Did you think you had a good chance at winning the competition?

TG: I did. I wouldn't have went if I didn't. But there's a couple growers out there that definitely grow from big ones. So you just never know.

CO: You arrived. And then.

TG: Yeah.

CO: They weighed it in. Were really nervous as they were doing that?

TG: Oh, yeah. Well, and actually, you know, people are like asking me after the fact, were you relieved when you seen the 2,174, right before you? And I said, honestly, not because all these pumpkins throughout the day. I mean, there was only a few that weren't really heavy. Other than that, they were all kind of going light. [chuckling] And so I'm up on stage going, just don't let this be a balloon, you know? [both chuckling] Don't let this be a balloon whatsoever. And when I seen it went over 2,300, I was happy with it. And then it went 2,350.

CO: Wow! Two-thousand, three-hundred-fifty pounds for your pumpkin.

TG: Yup!

CO: Holy moly! And so you won?

TG: Yeah. So we won. And with that, we got seven dollars a pound and a trip to New York. And yeah, it was kind of neat.

CO: What did you win in prize money then?

TG: So 16,450 dollars.

CO: [chuckling] And did that cover of at least your costs of getting there and back from Minnesota?

TG: [chuckling] Yeah, I always say if you take a second or third, you know, it's probably an equal thing there. You're not making any money [chuckling]. But, yeah, first, you definitely do.

CO: All right. So everybody wants me to ask you the question as to how you did it? What was your secret?

TG: So, really, there is no secrets in growing these. It's all mind. But, you know, I started pretty early with my seed. I watered quite a bit. I've got great soil that I've been modifying for at least four years now. So I've been building up that soil and then I fertilize quite a bit, too. Then, let the fertilizers kick in.

CO: Well, you just gave away, I guess your secret, which is whatever you're modifying that soil with, right?

TG: Yeah, I would say, I mean, you can do whatever you want, but if you don't have the key ingredient of good soil, you know, it's tough.

CO: And so you're in Anoka, Minnesota?

TG: Yup!

CO: Were you growing this on a farm?

TG: It's like you could kind of considered a hobby farm, but it's more just a regular place with a backyard.

CO: You grew this pumpkin --

TG: Yeah, it’s not a huge space, yeah.

CO: You grew this pumpkin in your backyard? [laughing]

TG: Yeah. Oh yeah, like, literally walk right out the door, and it’s right there.

CO: And you have good soil?

TG: Yeah. I didn't when I first moved in, for sure.

CO: What have you been feeding it with?

TG: So seaweed. So it's like a seaweed-kelp mixture.

CO: Right.

TG: And that's what I pretty much coast on all season, maybe a little bit of potassium for the pumpkins. It all depends. A lot of guys, tissue test and soil test. And I didn't really do much of that this year. I just kinda knew what it needed from years prior, [co chuckling] and just gave it a little bit everything.

CO: It's kind of a weird shape, isn't it?

TG: Well, this one's actually great shape. I mean, this one's just fairly round, fairly orange, whatever, compared to most that are this size.

CO: Can you make a jack o' lantern out of it?

TG: Yeah. We will actually. We will be making a big tiger because it was nicknamed “Tiger King”. So it'll be all relief carved and look like real fur.

CO: OK, so you had the biggest pumpkin, the heaviest pumpkin in North America this year.

TG: Yup.

CO: But I understand there. I mean, I have some giant pumpkin stats here that, apparently, 2018 was the largest in the United States, from New Hampshire. Twenty-five hundred pounds?

TG: Yup!

CO: And if you're going for a world record, the largest, the heaviest pumpkin in the world 2016, the European Championships in Germany, [chuckling] 2,600 pounds.

TG: Yes. Grown in Belgium, in the climate-controlled greenhouse.

CO: [chuckling] Oh, okay. Oh, wow! That's not fair.

TG: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I mean, most people at this level kinda grow in climate-controlled greenhouses and it's getting hard not to compete like that.

CO: They're not growing it in their backyard like you.

TG: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we had five frosts before September 18th.

CO: Well, Travis, big congratulations to you.

TG: Thank you!

CO: All right! Have a happy Halloween.

TG: Appreciate it. Thank you, guys.

CO: Bye.

TG: Bye.

AH: Travis Gienger's pumpkin won the big prize at the Safeway World Championship Pumpkin Weigh-Off in California. He spoke to us from Anoka, Minnesota. You can take in his giant pumpkin, called "Tiger King", on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

Part two: U.S. police endorsement, France crackdown beheading

U.S. police endorsement

Guest: Terrance Hopkins

AH: U.S. President Donald Trump often touts the endorsements he's received from police unions across the U.S. He listed some of them at the first presidential debate. But some Black police union members are not only embarrassed by those endorsements — they're angry. Philadelphia's first Black female sheriff, for one, called the national police union's support for President Trump "an outrage." The endorsements come in the midst of months of demonstrations over police violence and systematic racism within forces. Terrance Hopkins is the president of the Black Police Association of Dallas, Texas. We reached him in Dallas.

CO: Mr. Hopkins, I know you got a call just yesterday from an officer who is quitting the Dallas Police Association, which is your main police union, that because of the endorsement of Donald Trump. What did that officer say to you?

TERRANCE HOPKINS: Well, he basically made statements regarding how he wasn't reached out to for his feelings regarding that endorsement.

CO: And how does he feel about that endorsement?

TH: Well, it doesn't feel that it reflects what he believes as a Black man, first, and as a Black officer.

CO: Is it because Donald Trump has said racist things and has endorsed racist positions?

TH: Well, you know, pretty much. I mean, when you look at the campaign itself and some of the statements he made, I mean, there's a large collection of people who believe that he does not do enough to stamp out racism. And when you're talking about minorities, that's a very hot topic.

CO: Yours is not the only one, or association that has endorsed Donald Trump. So are people feeling, are Black police officers feeling betrayed by their unions?

TH: You know, I think you would probably have to say that to a certain degree, because, again, if a large segment of this society regards him as someone who doesn't stand up to defend, or in opposition to racism, then you're pretty much just as much for it. So a lot of minorities are feeling that he promotes that and doesn't do enough to stop it or end it. So they don't want to be associated with any groups that support him.

CO: But is it your feeling, or is it their feeling, I know you can't speak for everybody, but is there a sense that these unions actually endorse or support Donald Trump's statements, his position on white supremacy and on some of the other racist tropes that he has indulged in? I mean, are they supporting those ideas? Is that a feeling within your union?

TH: That is a feeling that has been expressed to me by some, for sure.

CO: That your fellow white police officers support the ideas of white supremacy?

TH: Yes, that's been expressed to me before. Yes, ma'am.

CO: What's it like for you to hear that expressed to you from your colleagues?

TH: You know, it's hurtful. And, you know, I've never been one to paint with a broad brush. And I know a lot of white officers don't feel that way. But it's just the relationship. And knowing some of the things that he said before that have been so insightful, that rubs a lot of folks the wrong way. Because when we look at policing, people want to believe or feel that they are safe with their police officers. And when you see something like this, what I get from a lot of African-Americans is they feel that if you've supported someone else who’s supported some type of hate, then how are you out there policing those minorities that you're sworn to treat properly, protect, to serve?

CO: Is it at all possible that some are worried about what they've heard from liberal politicians who are calling to defund the police? Is it possible that some of that endorsement of Donald Trump comes from that camp?

TH: Oh, for sure. You know, the funding issue has been another hot topic. It's been a political play from certain sides that, you know, if you don't go this way, your police departments will be defunded. And your 9-1-1 call will go unanswered. So, you know, now it's just made so political and weaponized that way that, you know, that in itself creates major problems.

CO: How much more difficult has this made being a police officer, being a Black police officer?

TH: You know, there's so much division. The police officer associations and unions and police themselves want you to be on a certain side. The community wants you to be on a certain side. So it's just tough all around. It's not an easy time right now in our country.

CO: How unusual is it for police unions to actually make a presidential endorsement?

TH: Well, this is my 30th year in law enforcement, and I just do not recall it ever happening here in Dallas like this. It's not the norm.

CO: You must have seen it coming, though, when we saw police association leaders on stage with Donald Trump, supporting him, even after George Floyd, even after all of the different cases of the films we've seen, the videos of black people being killed by police, that they have been strong supporters of Donald Trump's politics.

TH: Right. And that's what makes it so difficult. You know, it's like, you know, we're split down racial lines and, you know, it's not going to get any better any time soon.

CO: I’m sure you know there are a lot of what-if scenarios being bandied about that following the results of this election, there might be violence, that there might be violent reactions to that vote. And so how difficult is it going to be to actually police when there's a perception that the police are in bed with one side of that election?

TH: Well, it’s definitely going to be harder. It's tougher already. So, yeah, down the road, if certain things take place, I think it's going to be a lot harder on us in this country as law enforcement when we deal with minorities. And that is a potential reality.

CO: Do you worry about what's going to happen in the days after the election?

TH: I do. That is actually part of my job, working with the protest groups and the marches and demonstrations and things of that nature. So, yeah, it worries me.

CO: What's your greatest fear?

TH: Is that violence may break out at some of these demonstrations and protest. You know, we all want everybody to exercise their First Amendment rights. But, you know, we know that sometimes that comes with violence.

CO: Mr. Hopkins, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

TH: My pleasure.

AH: Terrance Hopkins is the president of the Black Police Association in Dallas.

Twin-demic

AA: I've calculated the numbers. We have about 330 under the age of five. Over a thousand over 65. And many hundreds that are considered high-risk. So let's say 2,000 in total.

RB: So how are you going to decide who gets the vaccines first?

AA: Isn't that exactly the rub, right? You know, the 110 will go to the ones that are coming in that meet those criteria and then we'll go through the alphabetical list. We really can't triage who are the highest risks of those two thousand. And we have to hope that by the time we're done, another batch comes in.

RB: The health minister said that there are no shortages of vaccines. We've got a statement saying that the province has ordered more vaccines than other years. It will just arrive in multiple shipments. Why, in your view, is that not good enough?

AA: Yeah, so that the minister is not incorrect. They did order 20 per cent more. The problem is, is that they created an advertising, you know, marketing plan that let people know that flu vaccines are the absolute critical thing that they need to do. So they've created artificial demand, a bit of hysteria, so to speak. And, in fact, if you think about it, I was supposed to get 500. I got 110. There's no excuse for that. There's no explanation for that. There's no one you can talk to about that. You may have enough supply. But if you can't get it to the people that actually need to give the shots, then there is a problem in policy.

RB: What is the risk in some of your patients waiting a little bit longer for the vaccine?

AA: The risk is the flu is here in the community. People are exposed to it in addition to the possibility of COVID. And then, therefore, are worst outcomes for their health. So we do want to get the job done within a month. But if we're getting one hundred and ten vaccines in whatever frequency, we're not going to get to the numbers that we need to get to. That's unacceptable.

AH: That's Dr. Alykhan Abdulla speaking with Ottawa Morning host Robyn Bresnahan about his dwindling supply of flu vaccines.

[Music: Ambient instrumental]

France crackdown beheading

Guest: Marwan Muhammad

AH: The French government is investigating more than 50 French Muslim organizations — and vowing to shut some of them down. They're responding to a gruesome beheading of a school teacher on Friday. Samuel Paty had recently shown pictures of the Prophet Muhammad to his class during a discussion about freedom of speech. Depictions of the Prophet Muhammad can seriously offend some Muslims. And on Friday, an 18-year-old Russian-born Chechen stabbed and decapitated Mr. Paty. Police shot and killed the attacker. France's interior minister has said, apparently without any evidence, that one French Muslim NGO was, quote, "obviously involved" in Friday's attack. The NGO he's speaking of is called the Collective Against Islamophobia in France, or C-C-I-F. Marwan Muhammad used to be the spokesperson for CCIF. We reached him in Paris.

CO: Mr. Muhammad, France's interior minister, has called the organization you used to work for an enemy of the state. What's your message to the minister?

MARWAN MUHAMMAD: My message to the minister is that he should remember that he used to be a supporter of our organization when he was coming to conferences and supporting our work and commending our work before he became a minister of interior and before France was on the verge of becoming the first state to let the far-right govern France.

CO: Right. What has he said, what has the government said is the reasons why they think that your NGO is suspicious?

MM: Because we criticize Islamophobia in France. ANd, in essence, for them, criticizing the current Islamophobia in the country is a way of rejecting the republic. So they think that raising awareness on discrimination and hate crime constitutes an act of defiance.

CO: Well, some of the awareness that they say that you are raising with the Collective Against Islamophobia in France is that your organization took part in a social media campaign against this teacher who has been murdered. And that a father of one of his students had reached out to your NGO for help. Is that what happened?

MM: No, it's not what happened. The CCIF never incited or shared the video or transmitted the video via mail, WhatsApp, Twitter or any social network for that matter. But it is true that the person who shot the video tried after he defused the video, after he disseminated the video. A few days later, he tried to contact the helpline, and a clerk at the helpline told him that before taking any testimony, it was advisable for him to take down this video because it could be counterproductive and even dangerous. So not only the CCIF wasn't involved in any way in this crime or in the incitement targeting this teacher, but they adopted the exact opposite position by calling for a more reasonable resolution. And by hoping that the person would take down the video.

CO: Did the CCIF, your organization, did it comment about the teacher showing pictures of the Prophet Mohammed, these cartoons? Was that something that your organization did?

MM: No, they did not comment. And they weren't involved until after there was this horrible, horrendous killing. And after that, of course, they published the statement condemning, of course, violence and expressing support for the victim, his family and the community of teachers.

CO: When you heard about the brutal murder of this teacher, Samuel Paty, what effect did that have on you, that news?

MM: I was shocked because I'm so involved in the school of my children. And I'm so involved with the with the teachers when they need help. How did we get it so wrong to antagonize people like that to the point where an 18-year-old kid from 18 kilometres away comes and kills an innocent man, just for lack of discussion, just for a lack of dialog in our French society today. And on one side, we are exposed to terrorist attacks like it's been the case regularly in France over the last few years. And on the other side, we are exposed to racism. And the government is now asking us to choose between the two.

CO: Can you expand a bit on that? What do you mean about having to decide between the two?

MM: Basically, what the government is saying is that if you are denouncing and criticizing Islamophobia, it means you condone terrorism. And if you are a good French Muslim citizen, you have to show your loyalty to the nation. And you have to do this by criticizing and accepting the stigmatization of Muslim organization. You have to choose between your faith and your citizenship. In any other country, these two parts are complementary in one's identity. But in France now, we said that either you have to choose your loyalty to France or your loyalty to your religion as if these were two opposed concepts.

CO: When something like this happened, this horrendous murder, what's the response within your community with among Muslims in France? Do they brace for the other side, the one that they're horrified by what's happened, but then waiting for the backlash against them?

MM: When this happens, people are horrified. But there is some part within us that is hoping without even saying the words, oh my God, please make sure he's not Muslim. Please make sure the perpetrator is not Muslim. And, of course, as soon as we discovered that the person has claimed that he does this in the name of Islam, we know that we're going to have like one week or two weeks of horrendous backlash in the media. But we just have to turn the TV off and the social networks off and let it pass and hope that our neighbours, our friends, our colleagues will remember that we are human beings and that we grew up together, studied together, raised our kids together.

CO: And meanwhile, the French police are raiding the homes of dozens of Islamic radicals. They say they are probing more than 50 Muslim associations, including the one you used to work at. What effect is that going to have on your community?

MM: The minister has been explicit this morning in the newspaper. And he said that these raids had nothing to do with the case in and of itself, but they were used to send a message. So he, for the first time, acknowledged that basically, these raids had no specific legal motivation, but they were used to coerce Islamic organization to stop criticizing the government and to send a message. And this in and of itself, using the state's infrastructure and the police to coerce political opponents or people we disagree with, is the very definition of arbitrary measures.

CO: And we can confirm that that the interior minister of France did say that the raids on houses are in many cases had nothing to do with the murder of the teacher, and they were done to send a message.

MM: Yeah.

CO: Mr. Muhammad, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

MM: Thank you so much. Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

MM: Bye now.

AH: Marwan Muhammad is a former spokesperson for the Collective Against Islamophobia in France. He's in Paris.

[Music: Uke!]

New Zealand politician is thrown out

AH: This weekend, New Zealand journalist Tova O'Brien tweeted: "Whoa! That's quite something to wake up to." It was after one of her interviews — or as the Guardian called it ... a "brutal takedown" — went viral. She was interviewing politician Jami-Lee Ross, who was just voted out of parliament. He's a former National Party MP and his riding is called Botany. Ms. O'Brien's questiniong of Mr. Lee has earned praise — and in the U-S, CNN's Jake Tapper tweeted that she had some fans in his country. Here's just a bit of that interview.

TOVA O’BRIEN: After a decade in politics, former national MP Jamie-Lee Ross is out of parliament. The Advance leader joins me now. Jami-Lee, you just described yourself as a loser. You are out of National, out of parliament, out of Botany. Your political career is in tatters. Do you have any regrets?

JAMI_LEE ROSS: Look, we gave it a good go this time round. We put together a new party in just a few months’ time. We only gathered one per cent of the vote. It clearly wasn't enough. But I've enjoyed the opportunity to work with all the people that I have with Advance New Zealand.

TO: Do you want to have another crack at answering that? Because I just asked you if you have any regrets. You've just been part of the political movement which has been peddling misinformation during the election campaign. Do you have any regrets?

JLR: No, I think we were asking some hard questions about the direction of COVID-19. If you're asking about regrets throughout the whole three-year term, of course, we could have all done things a lot differently and a lot better back in 2018. But we're here now. We made our bid and we just move forward.

TO: I want to focus on the strategy. Look, why, why on earth did you get into bed with Billy Te Kahika?

JLR: I could see that there was a lot of growth on social media. There was a lot of growth in the number of people coming along --

TO: So it was purely political ambition?

JLR: No, I could --

TO: You sold your soul for political ambition?

JLR: I could see that there was people out there who were asking questions around things that I believe in too, around freedom and sovereignty for New Zealand.

TO: And a plandemic.

JLR: No, I've never said that, Tova.

TO: You haven't, but he has.

JLR: I've never said that. COVID-19 is a real virus. So we are asking questions about whether the country was going in the right direction.

TO: You know exactly what you were doing. You were whipping up fear and hysteria among vulnerable communities.

JLR: Not at all. If you go and look at the mortality rate of COVID-19 compared to other flu --

TO: I’m going to stop you there. No, I dont want to -- [crosstalk] I don’t want to hear any of that rubbish.

JLR: You can’t just not allow me to answer.

TO: Well, if you're going to come on the show and say things which are just factually incorrect, I can do that, actually. Politics is all you've known. What are you going to do after this?

JLR: I think it's time for a rest. But look, I've enjoyed the decade that I’ve been in Parliament. I think it's been one where I've been up to serve my community of botany, and I've done that diligently. And the last two years wasn't what I expected when we had the election in 2017. But there's a whole lot of characters in the National Party, too, that I think will be looking back at this term and thinking they could have, and should have done, things a lot differently.

TO: You said you do have some regrets from that, the three-year parliamentary term, or perhaps more broadly in your political career. This might be the last time that you're on the air. Probably the last time that we’ll invite you on. Are there any apologies that you want to issue to anyone?

JLR: I think we all in the National Party back in 2018 could have done things differently, and we should have. And that was probably the start of the decline for the National Party. Had we all done things differently, we'd all be in a different position. But it happened. We move forward and we focus on the future.

AH: That was former New Zealand politician Jami-Lee Ross, speaking with Newshub political editor Tova O'Brien just after he was voted out of Parliament.

Part three: Homeless statue, slave ship preservation

AH: When Canada repatriated a five-year-old named Amira from an ISIS camp earlier this month, Leila Sakhir found a renewed sense of hope for another little girl — her own niece. Ms. Sakhir's brother travelled from Quebec to join ISIS in 2014. When he died, he left behind his two-year-old daughter in a Syrian refugee camp. Their story is part of a new documentary on the lives of children living in these camps. Among them are 26 Canadian children, including Leila Sakhir's niece. Ms. Sakhir met her niece for the first time when she visited the Syrian camp for the documentary. Here she is speaking about that moment.

LEILA SAKHIR: It was an incredible feeling. First, she looks a lot like my brother, sure. So she reminded me of my brother. So I was very, very happy to see her. But, at the same time, I was able to see and to witness the conditions where she was living at the camp. And it was also heartbreaking to leave her behind just to see her for one hour and come back here and leave her in those conditions. That was very hard, too.

MIKE FINNERTY: So, now that we've had the case of Amira, what do you think that might change? Because the federal government is still telling us, we got a statement from global affairs that says, given the security situation on the ground and the current COVID-19 contacts, the government of Canada's ability to provide consular assistance remains extremely limited in Syria. Canadian consular officials are actively engaged with Kurdish authorities to seek information. We continue to monitor the situation. I mean, it doesn't sound that helpful. How do you read it?

LS: So, this repatriation actually means that, well, it proves that even if Canada is lacking any consular presence in Syria, repatriation is not out of reach. Like the government was saying just before they repatriated Ameera, it is possible to go there, to discuss with the local authorities, have access to the camp and repatriate all the children. So I think it's a big step in the right direction. And I think that will hopefully help us move forward.

MF: One of the complicating factors is that your niece still has a living parent. Her mother, right?

LS: Yes. She actually doesn't have a connection with Canada. She is not Canadian. So my niece’s situation is more complicated in that sense. It's twofold, actually. On one hand, my niece is Canadian through my brother. So, therefore, I'm hoping that she will be considered for repatriation when the time comes. But on the other hand, her Canadian parent, my brother, is no longer here, right? Which means that her mother, who is not Canadian, would have to be considered for Canadian repatriation as well. But I know, that being said, I know how complicated and difficult this could be, because I want to concentrate all of my efforts to ensure that my niece and her mother will not be separated at any given time.

AH: Leila Sakhir speaking with CBC host Mike Finnerty today on Daybreak Montreal.

Homeless statue

Guest: Alex Martin

AH: It's not the first time someone has called the authorities on Jesus. And by that, I mean called the authorities about a statue known as "Homeless Jesus." The sculpture's Canadian creator — Timothy Schmalz — says it's happened. But no one's sure if it's ever happened quite as quickly as it did last week, at a church in Ohio. Father Alex Martin is the priest at St. Barnabas Episcopal Church in Bay Village, Ohio. That's where we reached him.

CO: Father Martin, we've talked about this particular statue before on this show, but maybe you can start by describing it for us?

ALEX MARTIN: Of course, the Homeless Jesus statue, it's a park bench with a man lying on top of it, sleeping covered in a blanket. And the only thing that distinguishes it and makes it clear that it is Jesus sleeping on the bench is that his feet, his bare feet are protruding from under the blanket and they bear the wounds of crucifixion. And the work is meant to be a visual representation of Saint Matthew's gospel, where Jesus tells us that any time we serve those among us who are in greatest need, that we are serving Christ himself.

CO: And that is actually inscribed at the base of the sculpture, isn't it?

AM: It is. And it's inscribed on a plaque at the base of the sculpture.

CO: And so how did you come to have this statue of Jesus on this park bench, how did it come to be on the grounds of your church?

AM: Well, these statues are popping up all over the world in various places. And there's one here in Cleveland, on the west side of town that's owned by the Community West Foundation, which is a foundation that raises money to support a number of nonprofit groups that provide direct services to folks who are homeless. And this particular statue of homeless Jesus moves around to various churches on the west side of town to raise awareness. And there was unanimous excitement about bringing Homeless Jesus to Bay Village because I think it represents some of our core values, most especially loving our neighbours, and working to dismantle systems that don't treat all people with inherent dignity.

CO: How long was the Homeless Jesus sculpture on your grounds before the police arrived at your door?

AM: I was still outside taking pictures. So it was not very long at all, I was just within a few minutes.

CO: And what did the police say when they arrived?

AM: Just that someone had called and reported a homeless person sleeping on the bench. The responding officer was great. He approached the statue. He checked it out. He read the inscription at the bottom of it. I walked over because, like I said, I was still outside taking pictures, and walked over. And we had a good chat about the sculpture, about its intended message. So one of the reasons that we placed it where we did is that St. Barnabas abuts a large city park. And we placed it very near the park, and only a few yards off of a walking path because we were intended for it to spark conversation. Of course, this has blown up far more than we anticipated, but it was certainly seen and seeing a statue depicting a homeless person sleeping on a bench or from a distance, it could absolutely be mistaken for a real person sleeping on a bench. That would be jarring at 3:30 in the afternoon in a suburban neighbourhood that is largely insulated from the kind of extreme poverty that leads to people sleeping outside.

CO: So obviously, whoever called believe there really was somebody, a homeless person, barefoot, sleeping on the bench in front of your church. So why would they call the police?

AM: Well, I mean, there aren't a ton of options, I think, as far as services go, of course. And I think that's one of the things that needs to be part of the ongoing conversation about how we serve those who are in great need. And this has, of course, sparked conversation about whether that was the right thing to do. One of the goals for the installation is that it might make us less quick to judge one another. And so I would want to give the caller the benefit of the doubt and assume that they were calling it out of love and compassion and concern for a fellow human being who is sleeping outdoors in the middle of the afternoon and might need various services that are available or maybe even medical attention.

CO: Wouldn't you think, though, you go at least get close enough to see if the person needed help to know that it actually wasn't a human being? I mean, if you want to give the benefit of a doubt. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that they wouldn't even get close enough to know that you're dealing with a sculpture and that it had a message directed probably at the person who was looking at it?

AM: Sure. Yeah, I can't comment, of course, on anyone's intentions or the experience of another person, but I think that it speaks to its power as public art. And it's jarring, I think, to see this. And it is intended to spurn a reaction, which obviously it's done that.

CO: Are there many homeless people in Bay Village, Ohio?

AM: There are not. And so it's part of what makes this sculpture, I think, important in this neighbourhood is that it's not a place where you would typically see something like this.

CO: And so what message do you want people in your parish and in your community to get?

AM: One message, of course, is that even though there's not extreme poverty right in our backyard, we don't have to go very far to find it. And that we have a Christian obligation to stand with those who are outcast and marginalized. That's what Jesus did in his day, and that's what Jesus calls Christians to do today. And I think another message of seeing Jesus depicted in this way reminds us that all life has sacred dignity and worth, especially those that are sometimes cast aside to the curb. One of the things that we've done at St. Barnabas is that we've used this as an opportunity to raise funds. And so every penny we're raising, we're giving away. And one of the things that I have found inspiring through all of this is that those donations have come in in small increments, five, ten, fifteen dollars from all over the world. People have seen the sculpture. People have seen the media coverage. And people have reacted to it. And I think that's inspiring.

CO: Well, there you go. [laughing] Interesting things happen right when you least expect them. Father Martin, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

AM: Thank you so much for having me.

AH: Alex Martin is the head priest at St. Barnabas Episcopal Church in Bay Village, Ohio. The sculpture that prompted that call to police was created by Canadian artist, Timothy Schmalz. In 2013, Mr. Schmalz spoke to Carol, shortly after a version of that same statue was installed outside St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican.

TIMOTHY SCMALZ: I had the idea actually when I was in downtown Toronto, and I think it was two years ago at Christmas time, I saw someone that was sleeping in the middle of the day, wrapped up, and I saw that person, I thought that is Jesus. And I wanted people to come to that conclusion that I did. When you see the marginalized people, that you should see that spiritual connection. So I created the piece. The first cast actually went to Regis College, University of Toronto. Two weeks later, we have a new pope, Pope Francis, whose whole mission is to focus on the poor and the marginalized. So it seemed quite appropriate. And it was just an amazing experience.

CO: And but you got to meet the pope.

TS: Oh, I did.

CO: Tell me about that.

TS: Yeah, I had an official blessing of the peace. The sculpture was put on a pedestal, right there in St. Peter's Square. And the pope came up to the peice, briefly prayed in front of it and then he blessed it. And then after that words, the Vatican officials brought me over, introduced me as the sculptor of the piece and he actually told me he thought it was beautiful.

CO: And I guess it shouldn't surprise us because Pope Francis believes that the church needs to turn to being a poorer, more humble place than it has been. And it seems that what you're describing, your approach to the story of Jesus fits with his philosophy. Do you feel that's the case?

TS: Yeah, I really do. And it's interesting because Pope Francis obviously was appointed by the cardinals. And so it's like a major shift because the cardinals really knew who they were going to have as the new pope. I don't think any of this is really a shock to them that now the focus is turning with such an emphasis on the marginalized. The interesting thing being in Rome is that by looking at the artwork, the different representations of Jesus, you'd find very little artistic representations of this relationship to the poor. Jesus in the past 500 years has always been represented as kind of as devotional. And so this piece kind of is basically more down-to-earth in a sense. And I think more powerful.

AH: Canadian sculptor Timothy Schmalz, speaking with Carol in 2013.

Domestic violence housing

JENNIFER DENOUDEN: In the beginning, it wasn't so easy. I was a 25-year-old female kind of leading this company from the beginning, and we had a difficult time trying to make the connections and get the support from some of the industry that we needed. For example, we contacted several plumbing companies for instance, and we’re trying to get quotes. We’re trying to get a company to work with us. And I actually had the owners of one of the largest plumbing companies tell me when we were first starting our business that my dreams were cute. [laughing]

STEFANI LANGENEGGER: Oh, my gosh.

JD: And there was a big difference between, you know, dreaming something and actually doing it. And I remember just feeling so offended. But, you know, some of that really leads to lighting a fire under you and just wanting to prove people wrong. And it, I think, helped us in the end.

SL: You also give back to the community, Jennifer. Why is that important to you as a business person?

JD: So as we grew, we really wanted to find a way to use our success and our platform to give back to the industry. And I just really feel that it's so important that if you've had great success and you had the support and the luck even a little bit to get there, it's so important to give back to the community. How we've done that is through partnerships with organizations who serve women and children who have fled domestic abuse in the city. So we build housing, affordable housing, for them. We also pledge donations to help the organization better do the amazing work that they do. We've seen firsthand what can happen when there's domestic abuse in the family. And so we really wanted to offer ways to help families and especially, you know, support the survivors of it, to move on with their life and be able to access a home that’s safe in an area that’s welcoming to them. So we've really done a lot of work in that area, both here in Regina and now in Edmonton, where we’ve recently expanded to.

AH: Jennifer Denouden is president and CEO of Avana Enterprises — which was just ranked the tenth fastest growing company in Canada. She spoke with Stefani Langenegger today on CBC Saskatchewan's "The Morning Edition."

[Music: Jazz]

Slave ship preservation

Guest: Kramer Wimberley

AH: It was a horrifying tragedy when it capsized in the 17th century. And now, one of the world's oldest slave ships is facing a second tragedy: destruction. The ship sits at the bottom of the English Channel. And the scuba diving team that found it is raising concerns about the damage it's sustaining — and about how we preserve the history of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Diving With a Purpose is a maritime archaeology program whose divers work to resurrect slave shipwrecks embedded along international coastlines. Kramer Wimberley is a lead instructor with the program — and he's seen the crumbling slave ship in the English Channel up close. We reached Mr. Wimberley in Port St. Lucie, Florida.

CO: Kramer, what does it mean for you to find the wreck of this slave ship?

KRAMER WIMBERLEY: It's conflicting. Because it's been documented as one of the oldest slave ships to have been located, and the knowledge that trawlers are in the process of destroying that vessel is really disturbing.

CO: So mixed feelings because --

KW: Because of its importance. It’s extremely important because the work of maritime archeology is to identify traces or remnants of our past and to interpret those traces to inform us about who we were then in relationship to who we are now.

CO: But at the same time, the wreck has been wrecked even more. What condition is it in, as far as you can tell?

KW: Based on the last time we had an opportunity to observe it, you could see the strafing lines of the trawling equipment that had just raked across the entirety of the ocean bottom, and breaking up and moving cannons out of place to give you an idea of the weight of the damage that's being done.

CO: And these trawlers, they're not deliberately going after the wreck. They're trawling for fish and they're destroying whatever's at the bottom?

KW: They’re trawling for fish and they’re destroying what's at the bottom. It's like jumping into a bulldozer with your eyes closed and just moving in a particular direction. No one would allow a bulldozer to do something like that without being able to see what it was that was actually taking place.

CO: So this is a piece of history that's being destroyed, the ship. But at the same time, this is actually a graveyard, isn't it?

KW: Yes, it is, which makes what it is that’s taking place that much more indifferent and inhumane, knowing that it's there, knowing that it's a horrible vestige of our past. And to have people on a conscious level know that they're destroying the remains, it's unspeakable.

CO: The history you are trying to preserve by finding these wrecks is about the 12 million, the estimated 12 million Africans dragged from their homes, taken across the Atlantic. And so just thousands of voyages like this, how many of them ended up like this particular boat that they went down before arriving with their enslaved people?

KW: I can only give you estimates, right? But it's estimated that 12 million people were trafficked. And of that 12 million, two million never made through some wrecking event that took place.

CO: How difficult is it to find these wrecks?

KW: I don't know, because — and this is only my belief — but there hasn't really been a concerted or focused effort to identify and locate these wrecks on any kind of grand scale. It's my hope that we will be able to identify more and document more.

CO: In the course of your work with Diving With a Purpose, do you ever try to imagine, to reconstruct in your head, what it would have been like to be among the Africans in the hold of that ship?

KW: All the time. It's sometimes overwhelming to try to put yourself in that position. But I'm putting myself, or attempting to place myself in that position, 400-plus years later with the freedom and the privilege that I enjoy that they never did. So even the pain that I experience in attempting to empathize and the pain that I experience growing up as a descendent. Because we still carry that transgenerational transmission of trauma in us because it hasn't been addressed fully as of yet. That is nothing compared to the actual person who experienced it.

CO: Is there a particular one of the discoveries, is there a particular one that was most moving for you to discover?

KW: The most painful would probably be the episode in Suriname

CO: What happened there?

KW: Almost 600 Africans who were slaughtered because the captain took a wrong turn, ended up in the Moroni River as opposed to the Suriname River, and the ship lost its rudder. When they realized that they weren't going to be able to carry their cargo to market, within a couple of hundred yards of shore, you could see the shoreline, in relatively shallow water, they forced all the Africans down below deck. They hammered the hatches shut. They sat on the hatches until every last one of those Africans was drowned, right? And then they got in their boats and they left.

CO: And your dive team visited that wreck. Is that the case?

KW: Yes. Yes.

CO: That must have been so disturbing.

KW: Yes, right? Because you could almost hear the cries or the screams of people being slaughtered, right? Just to stand there right on that shoreline was overwhelming.

CO: For the past two years, you have been working with a team of journalists on a documentary series called “Enslaved”. And these, I guess, are some of the stories that are shared in that series, right?

KW: Yes. There are hopeful stories also. There are stories of resilience, stories of resistance. It's not all dark in episodes because you get to see the hope of a people, and the people who helped them.

CO: We look forward to being able to see that series, Kramer. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

KW: Thank you.

CH: Kramer Wimberley is a lead instructor with the maritime archaeology program Diving With a Purpose. He was in Port St. Lucie, Florida. And that docuseries Enslaved airs every Sunday at 9 p.m. your local time on CBC.

Ed Benguiat obit

AH: Graphic designer Ed Benguiat speaking to the Type Directors Club in 2016. Mr. Benguiat died late last week. He was 92.

October 19, 2020 Episode transcript

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