Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2018

The AIH Transcript for August 20, 2018

Hosts: Helen Mann and Karen Gordon

Prologue

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann sitting in for Carol Off.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening, I'm Karen Gordon sitting in for Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight…

HM: Missing from the missive. The pope writes to Catholics around the world to acknowledge that church officials helped cover up abuse. But a survivor and former priest tells us that the letter is both too little and far too late.

KG: The mother lode. In labour with triplets A Saskatchewan woman perform CPR on one of her newborns. Then, she's leaving the hospital she finds out the family home burnt to the ground.

HM: Flights or DIY firefighter. They can already feel the smoke in their throats but two former RCMP officers say they will defy an evacuation order to try to save their B.C. farm from the fires.

KG: Grief struck. A Manitoba lay minister says he survived one crash too many — he says it's time for the province to put an end to the tradition of driving slowly in funeral processions.

HM: Under threat down under. Canada accepts its first asylum seeker from Australia. His lawyer claims that authorities there made it possible for the motorcycle gang he informed on to track him down.

KG: And…Pretty fries or I'll fight you guys. Police in Maine call for calm after a restaurant ditches its famous crinkle cut French fries and furious customers threatened to retaliate using some seriously salty language. As It Happens: The Monday Edition. Radio with coverage of the cross-frier.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Pope Letter, BC Fires, Manitoba Funeral Processions

Pope Letter

Guest: Jim Faluszczak

KG: We showed no care for the little ones, we abandoned them. That's what Pope Francis wrote to Catholics around the world in a letter today. The letter follows last week's report from a Pennsylvania grand jury that described the church's efforts to avoid responsibility for thousands of cases of child sexual abuse in the state. The Pope's letter bluntly acknowledges the wounds of the victims and the failures of the church in addressing the crisis of sexual abuse. Jim Faluszczak is a former priest. He was molested by his pastor as a teenager. Mr. Faluszczak testified before the grand jury about his own abuse and about his attempts to report it to two bishops. We reached Mr. Faluszczak Buffalo, New York.

HM: Mr. Faluszczak, what was it like for you to read this letter from Pope Francis today?

JIM FALUSZCZAK: It was disappointing. I felt that his language is still very vague, and even more vague is what concrete steps that he intends to take moving forward.

HM: The letter comes out some days after the Pennsylvania grand jury report which outlined 70 years of extensive incidents of abuse. Does the letter specifically address what's in that grand jury report?

JF: To my mind no it does not. The pope had two years to prepare for the release of this report. So then knowing for two years that the report was coming, there were two or three days of silence before they issued any statement.

HM: Why do you think that is?

JF: I can't even begin to fathom. I think that they are caught in an amateurish position. I think that members of the hierarchy are just so separated from their people. They don't understand what the everyday lives of people or the everyday expectations of Catholics might be. I just simply don't think that they know how to respond. For example, Francis today in a letter calls for laypeople to pray and to fast and to do penance to resolve this crisis. It shouldn't be laypeople doing penance it should be the bishops. It's just so flat footed and vague and boilerplate. And I think all of this is a means of showing that they're just divorced from reality.

HM: The Pennsylvania attorney general said last week, noted again as a matter of fact, that a number of senior church officials had actually refused to participate in the grand jury procedures, in the investigation. Should the church, should Pope Francis order cooperation at all levels?

JF: Absolutely. We have to rely on the civil authorities to do the heavy lifting on this. The church can't investigate itself any more than a fox can investigate the loss of a chicken from a hen house.

HM: You yourself were abused by a priest and you brought that information, not only to one bishop, but two as I understand it and more than one time. What kind of response did you get?

JF: The first bishop, his response was to ask me how many times I was abused and I said 15. And his response was ‘Oh, thank god.’ And dismayed they asked him what he meant. And he said it's usually many more times than that and in fact I was lucky that it was only 15. The second bishop did nothing with the material that I brought about the abuse that I experienced. He didn't investigate it, he didn't ask me what happened, where it happened, any of the circumstances that led to it, any of the grooming behaviors that I endured for decades before it happened.

HM: Whatever happened to that information? Did it go anywhere up the hierarchy as far as you know?

JF: Not that I'm aware of. I even sent my allegations directly to the Pope. Ultimately, where I took it it was to the grand jury.

HM: Do you believe the Catholic Church can change after all these years of denial and cover up?

JF: I'm not optimistic that it can. I think it's too mired in a medieval sense of hierarchy and in its own rights. The church's law really preceded historically most systems of law and Western culture. And I think as a result they consider themselves above the law. It's going to take an immediate change in language and an immediate presentation of concrete responses in order to make me think that it can change.

HM: One person who has, I guess, faced some consequences as a result of allegations against him as the D.C. Cardinal McCarrick a couple of weeks back who was forced to resign. But some pointed out that he was not fired he was allowed to resign. In terms of the kind of concrete action that the church could implement do you think if it was a more forceful response that you and fellow Catholics would feel more confidence?

JF: Correct. He needs to fire people. A pastor fight for the sheep, he fights for his flock, he protects his flock and goes after the predators. You can't do that unless you take that kind of active and proactive stance to this problem.

HM: You yourself left the priesthood but you've said that you are still a Catholic. Has your actual faith been shaken by this?

JF: My faith in the church absolutely has been shaken. I don't just consider myself a Catholic, I still consider myself a priest but I can't live that that vocation that I still feel called to and remain healthy around perpetrators and people that that covered up these matters. The church is addicted to money and power and prestige and control and manipulation and coercion and secrecy. I would love to go back to my pulpit. I would love to stand at the altar again but I can't represent this organization, and so I don't see a way forward.

HM: I guess what I'm trying to get to though too is did your own experience as a victim of abuse and your witnessing of how your church reacted to it ever shake your faith in God?

JF: Yes, certainly. There have been moments where I’ve been angry with God, this has hobbled my ability to trust people in authority in many respects, it's hobbled my ability to trust in God. It's hard to trust in an all-powerful god that allows this kind of thing to happen. Not only that, I think everybody struggles with that, anyone who's a believer struggles with that from time to time. But the church just has this air of perfection about it that really flies in the face of a shared humanity. We certainly see the weakness of the church today. The bishops are sinners and we see their sinfulness, yet the Pope is calling the faithful of the church to engage in penance today. He should be on his knees, I think every bishop should just sit on the steps of their cathedral and close their mouths for a while and allow people to approach them and just be heard. Quit talking. Quit trying to come up with some clever response. Hear your people, let them really believe that they're heard.

HM: Mr. Faluszczak, I very much appreciate you speaking with us today. Thank you very much.

JF: You're most welcome. Thank you for your persistence in reporting on this.

HM: Bye-bye.

JF: Bye now.

KG: Jim Faluszczak is a former Catholic priest. We reached him in Buffalo, New York. For more on his story you can go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient Bass]

BC Fires

Guest: Kim Watt-Senner

KG: Thick, heavy smoke continues to hang over parts of British Columbia today. 545 fires are burning across the province. Five days into the official state of emergency there is still no significant rain in the forecast. Thousands of people are under evacuation orders but many continue to disobey those instructions and stay in their homes — among them Kim Watt-Senner. She and her husband are former RCMP officers. They're sticking it out with their livestock on their farm in Fraser Lake, B.C. and that's where we reached her.

HM: Kim, what's it like for you out there on that farm today?

KIM WATT-SENNER: Well, it's very smoky. We live right on the water and from our residents we really can't see much past the shoreline.

HM: And when you talk about smoke, I mean, what's the colour, what's the density of it?

KWS: Honestly, it looks a little bit like fog if you know the truth. And if you didn't step outside you would honestly think that it was fog — like really, really dense, thick fog.

HM: Obviously, you can smell it. What's the smell? What's the effect it's having on you?

KWS: Well, I mean, for all of us, you know, if we go outside for any stretch of time and come in we definitely smell like we've been sitting around a campfire for sure. And it's difficult because it's almost like marking time. You know, you can't really do a whole bunch because of the smoke outside. The smoke does filter inside and we have geothermal heating and cooling so we're lucky.

HM: Is it enough to make you cough when you're outside?

KWS: Yeah. Oh, yes, definitely, yeah. We go outside with I believe there in M95 masks and so we put them on and wear them whenever we're outside and especially if you're going out for an extended period of time to go check the animals or to do the checks, you know, on the property itself. Because of course, what we’re worried about right now is not necessarily the fire right at the moment but the embers that could fall from the fire that could start a brush fire that could lead to buildings being burned.

HM: Tell me about the animals?

KWS: Well, we have four horses and we just moved here two years ago so we're just starting our cattle operation up again so we only have four, it's not really a big thing yet. But say for example, Copper-T Ranch, which is right across from us, they have over 150 head of cattle and they've also had an influx of cattle brought in from other ranchers in the area. We have a plan with Copper-T that if the fire gets too close to them they're bringing their animals down onto our property because our property borders the water.

HM: So when you got the evacuation order did it not occur to you to maybe leave with the animals?

KWS: Well, yes and no. It's one of those things where you have to balance probabilities. And so we felt that because we had fire suppression and because we had fire hoses and industrial sprinklers and whatnot that we had a better chance of being able to protect our own property because we’re not right nestled up to Felix Mountain, which is where some of our friends places are. And so it gives us an opportunity to be able to see a fire coming but that doesn't mean that we didn't sit down and weigh out all the pros and cons and also come up with an evacuation plan if things go south.

HM: Right. And what is that plan?

KWS: So the truck and the stock trailer is all hooked up ready to go. All of the animals will be, our animals, would be pushed down to our lower pasture. And, of course, the horses would be walked onto the trailer and I leave with the animals. My husband would stay to try and preserve the farm or the buildings the best that he could. But if it really went sideways then, of course, if he could drive out he would but if he can't we've got a boat that's half submerged into the water and ready to go.

HM: Have you thought what it would be like for you to leave with those animals with your husband behind?

KWS: Yeah, it would be great — I get a catch in my throat thinking about that. We try not to get overemotional. I have a saying where you remove the emotion you deal with the equation. And so for us we really try hard to focus on remaining calm and doing things in priority sequence and, you know, doing the best you can with the information that you've been given.

HM: You often hear from people who do end up losing their property that they're happy that, you know, the family is together, they have their pets whatever is important to them. Have you considered what it would be like for you guys moving forward if you were to lose that home?

KWS: Well, I mean, it would be very difficult. We moved here two years ago and we did an extensive renovation to the farm itself. It's been two years of tremendous hard work. But at the end of the day the reality is is that things don't matter in life. You know, people and our health those are the things that we should be concentrating on as human beings and stuff can be replaced but we cannot replace each other. And for us that is the most important thing.

HM: Are you able to sleep through the night?

KWS: I can but my husband can’t. He gets up and he routinely does the checks throughout the property and, you know, it's disruptive.

HM: You must be looking forward to that moment when you get that all clear. Do you have any sense of when this might pass?

KWS: Oh my gosh, I wish it would be tomorrow. No we don't. The truth is is that none of us knows and I'm sure that probably Wildfire B.C. doesn't even know that at this point. And we we're blessed in that we have family that live in Fraser Lake. And we’re low on milk or whatever it is we can meet them at the at the checkpoint and the RCMP has been wonderful. I mean, we're in communication with them daily and they know why we're here. You know, they can't condone it, but at the same time they certainly understand. But we're nobody's hero and we're just trying to do the best we can with the situation that we've been given.

HM: Kim, I really appreciate you telling us what you're going through and I hope you don't have to put any of those plans into effect. Wish you the very best of luck.

KWS: Thank you and if I could just say one last thing. The community of Fraser Lake has been phenomenal. It's been a heartwarming process to see this community come together. And you know what, we're going to have to have a serious party.

HM: It's always good to know you got each other's backs.

KWS: Yes we do, that and then some.

HM: All right. Thanks again.

KWS: Take care.

HM: Bye-bye. We reached Kim Watt-Senner in Fraser Lake, B.C.

[Music: Ambient Bass Guitar]

Manitoba Funeral

Guest: Thomas Novak

KG: As a lay minister in Winnipeg Thomas Novak has driven in his fair share of funeral processions. He presides over a handful of funerals every week. But Brother Thomas has decided he won't drive anymore. A collision during a procession last week totaled his car. Now he's suggesting it might be time to put an end to the ceremonial drive altogether. We reached Thomas Novak in Winnipeg.

HM: Brother Thomas, can you take us back to the day of this collision? You were driving your car as part of this funeral procession, what happened then?

THOMAS NOVAK: I was about the fourth car in the funeral procession on the way to the cemetery because I was the lay minister presiding and was going to preside at the interment. There were about another 10 or 12 cars behind me. And as we were driving down this rather busy Winnipeg street I said to myself ‘This is too fast.’ And she's going through the lights about 40 kilometres an hour, which means to be safe you have to keep four or five car lengths.

HM: Can I just interrupt? When you say she, this is the person who's leading the procession?

TN: That's correct, the one who was leading the procession. So when we got to this really busy street at that point the street we were about to cross is eight lanes and the light was green when she flew through at 40 kilometres an hour. And then when I got through, the fourth car, as I was approaching it was turning yellow. And I said ‘What do I do?’ If I stop suddenly we're going to create a multiple collision. So I went through and I got halfway through the eight lanes of the intersection and I got hit very hard by a car that had the green light.

HM: So it t-boned you?

TN: Yes.

HM: And were you injured?

TN: I have some headaches and things since but I wasn't seriously injured. There was glass everywhere and there was a lot of anger within me because I was saying there was a blessing here. And I was thanking the good spirits that it was me that was hit because I was hit on the passenger side and there were no passengers. Right behind me was a small van with about seven people in it including three or four children — that would have been a real serious incident if we would have been one second difference in timing.

HM: You had mentioned a moment ago that you were approaching the light and it was yellow and you were trying to determine what to do next. Explain for those who may not know how a funeral procession works why you would proceed on a yellow? Why does that happen?

TN: There is a costume that funeral processions have the right of way. So if the cars are following very closely one after the other, the procession, including the cars following the lead car, normally are accepted to have the privilege or right to go through red lights. Also, something I've noticed people are less aware of funeral processions. It’s not on their minds anymore because so many people now were cremated there are not as many funeral processions. So they’re more rare, people are more in a hurry so I see very dangerous situations. I'm driving in a funeral procession, someone's impatient they’ll simply drive right through the procession.

HM: You said that the person leading the procession that you were in when you got hit was driving about 40 kilometres an hour, which doesn't sound like it's that fast. How quickly do they usually go?

TN: Well, with the more experienced, especially from independent funeral homes, those drivers will when they get to an intersection they will stop even if it's a green light they will wait for all the cars in the procession to line up almost bumper-to-bumper and then we will begin creeping through the intersection at about 5-8 kilometres an hour.

HM: You say independent and we know many funeral homes that went to these big chains. What's the difference in how those drivers behave?

TN: Well there's not the training and I talked to some funeral directors. They say ‘We don't get training on how to drive. They give us keys and they go to the funeral home.’ And one director told me his understanding was that he should be driving the speed limit.

HM: You have suggested now that the practice of these funeral processions should actually be rethought given the circumstances, given how few there are the lack of awareness perhaps. Why do you think it has to go that far?

TN: As society changes in cities, not in a little country towns, people become more and more hurried as traffic becomes much heavier, as funeral processions become rarer, as society becomes more secularized. That creates a situation of lack of public education, lack of awareness. Given even that I would encourage people meet us at the gates of a cemetery and we'll go in procession to the grave from the gates of the cemetery.

HM: The Manitoba Funeral Service Association has said it disagrees with you. They say that the processions are part of the ceremony and the tradition of saying goodbye to an important member of the community or a family. And they say this is also a practical way to make sure people know how to get from the church to the cemetery. So what do you say to that?

TN: Do they not have photocopiers? Can they not give people a map? The other thing they say is that the funeral homes give out flags for every car to put on their doors their windows. I've never seen one of those flags. And then if a car is coming down a very busy street at 60 kilometres an hour they’re not going to see that flight until they've gone through the door of the car they've hit.

HM: So you have said that you don't really think you will ever be able to drive in a funeral procession again. Is there anything that would make you rethink that?

TN: I might go with a driver I've been with before that I know we'll go with great caution. But if I don't know the driver I will not go. I will tell the people at the funeral I will meet them at the gates of the cemetery, and I will also warn them that they are taking a risk if they drive in a funeral procession.

HM: Well, Brother Thomas, I'm sorry that you went through this experience, but very much appreciate you sharing your concerns with us.

TN: Have a good evening.

KG: Thomas Novak is a lay minister in Winnipeg. That's where we reached him. You can find that interview on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Pop]

French Fry Debate

KG: Dateline Waterville Maine.

[Music: Theme]

KG: A recent Facebook post from the Bangor, Maine police department reads in part “I'm not saying we always have to act like Canadians. I am saying, think before you threaten to throat-punch someone on Facebook, say thank you and please more often,” — there's more. But as a Canadian let me just say excuse me and also pardon the interruption, sorry. The post continues quote “We really cannot be fighting or throat-punching people over our differences or the differences between straight and crinkle-cut” unquote. Great advice especially right now in Waterville, Maine where furious people are threatening throat-punches on social media over French fries. Recently, a local restaurant called Bolley’s made a decision. Its famous crinkle cut fries had become too expensive to make. They require fancy expensive blade's which always need to be replaced, so the owners switched to straight cut fries. Now let's see even going to that restaurant for years, let's also say you're a grown up. How do you respond to that? Acceptance, mild disappointment, or in person threats of violence and online threats of throat-punching. Now I know how you answered, but guess how a bunch of other grown-ups answered? Yep — that last one. They are so mad that this Bolley’s tradition has changed and that therefore retroactively their childhoods and entire lives are ruined apparently, Bolley’s co-owner Leslie Parsons had to go on Facebook and ask for civility writing, “I just want to say I will absolutely not tolerate being sworn at or threatened physical harm to myself, my husband and children. So to everyone who's turned the switch from crinkle-cut to straight-cut into the Lord of the fries try getting some perspective because if this really bothers you you should know that, obviously, not everything in your life is chip-shape.

Part 2: Saskatchewan Triplet Family, Banditos Asylum

Saskatchewan Triplet Family

Guest: Danielle Johnston

KG: Carrying and giving birth to triplets is a stressful enough experience. But for a Saskatchewan mom it was only the beginning. As she was giving birth a month ago she had to perform CPR on the first baby to come out while she was still in labour with the other two. Then on Saturday, as Danielle Johnston was getting ready to leave the hospital with her three healthy babies, her house burned to the ground. We reached Danielle Johnston in Regina.

HM: Danielle, you have really been through the ringer. How are you doing right now?

DANIELLE JOHNSTON: Well, actually I’m faring pretty good.

HM: You sound pretty philosophical.

DJ: You have to be, right?

HM: Tell us about this call you got from your husband on Saturday about your house? What did he say to you?

DJ: I was up at the hospital in the NIC unit feeding one of the babies and my phone rang. I seen his number so I answered it. He said “Our house burned down.” And I thought ‘What? You're joking,’ but I could tell in his voice, you know, he had that real concerned tone to his voice. And he’s like “I'm going there right now,” and he had all our older kids I didn't really know what to do. I said “I’ll pick up the kids because if you’re fighting fire you can’t have a bunch of little kids with you.”

HM: I guess just knowing the kids were safe was good?

DJ: Yeah, pretty much. I just wanted to be with them. I can’t imagine what it would have been like for them you know little kids seeing all that.

HM: I hear you lost some pets?

DJ: Yeah, yeah. That was the worst of it — the cat and one of our dogs.

HM: Oh dear, I'm sorry to hear it.

DJ: You know, it could have been a lot worse, we could have been homeless at the time. Thank God no one was hurt, you know, like people wise. It could always be worse.

HM: Now you said the house burned down. Was anything left?

DJ: No, there's nothing left.

HM: Oh my goodness. So any mementos that sort of thing is all gone?

DJ: Oh yeah. It's like it was just like an incinerator.

HM: Do you know what caused it?

DJ: We don't know right away. But there's speculation, like there's nobody who was there for a month and a few weeks so it wasn't manmade. I don't know maybe gas or electrical.

HM: You mentioned you have four older kids, is that right?

DJ: That's right, yeah.

HM: So you have seven now?

DJ: Yeah, I do.

HM: Wow. So where are you staying?

DJ: Right now we're going day by day we’re trying to figure out most insurance and this and that. like I have a camper trailer, it’s like park model trailer and that's where we've been staying.

HM: There’s nine of you living in that trailer?

DJ: Yeah.

HM: I guess it's good it’s summer so the kids can be outside a lot?

DJ: Oh, yeah. No, it's alright. It's not that bad, actually. Well, you know, at least we're all under one roof. It's been a hard summer with those babies being born and being in the NIC unit for such a long time. I don't care what size the roof, as long as we're just together.

HM: I mean, that's just the thing right. You've been through with this fire as though that's not bad enough, you've been through this birth of the triplets and it's quite a story that you have to tell about that birth as well. Can you tell us what happened?

DJ: My son came and I told him I had to go to the ambulance and I need to go to a hospital. There's no way I could drive. And so that was fine. He phoned 911, actually I had her while I was on the phone with 911, and then she wasn't breathing. So I had to give her CPR.

HM: So you were giving the baby CPR and you're still in labour with the other two?

DJ: Yeah, exactly that. And they wanted to come through the contractions were going pretty hard. So my son, I told him to take our van — he's only 15 he doesn’t even have his license yet. And I told him to take the van to the highway to meet the police and the ambulance so they know where we are. And so he did that and he escorted them to our house because it's hard to get to because we live on a farm. And then when he was leaving out the door my husband came home and Dillon said and “Mom just had a baby”

HM: And the CPR was successful we should say, your baby girls is fine.

DJ: Yeah. She’s had ultrasounds and they knew how she was born so they put her through every test. She's completely fine, actually she was the first baby released out of all the babies I had.

HM: So are the other two out of the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit too?

DJ: Yeah, they got out yesterday.

HM: Oh my goodness. I heard some voices a little in the background, I guess that the other kids. Your 15-year-old obviously is old enough to understand what's been going on but how are they coping with the situation around you losing your house?

DJ: They are doing actually pretty well. You know, I'm just telling them we’re lucky it wasn't one of us, you know, passed away in the fire. You know, something horrible like count your blessings and be so grateful because it could have been very bad.

HM: Oh my goodness. It sounds to me like you should get some kind of mom of the year award if only just because you're so pragmatic. It sounds like you're just keeping everybody calm. Your husband's okay?

DJ: Yeah. We're just trying to get through this and it'll be fine. You know, it's going to be okay. We’ll get through it and we're going to have a good life.

HM: Are people helping you out?

DJ: Yes, they sure are. I don't even have words for it it’s just amazing. You know, I have really good friends, really good family and people who I don't even know. Everyone is like ‘What can I do? How can I help you?’ I get all teary eyed because I don’t even know how to say thank you to these people. Thank you isn’t even enough.

HM: Thank you very much for speaking with us. I really appreciate it and I wish you the very best.

DJ: Thank you so much.

KG: We reached Danielle Johnston in Regina

[Music: Acoustic Guitar]

Giuliani Meet The Press

KG: As interpretations of truth go it's up there with alternative facts and fake news. Rudy Giuliani, former New York City mayor and now president Donald Trump's attorney, tied himself in knots on NBC's Meet the Press yesterday. Mr. Giuliani was trying to explain to host Chuck Todd why his client couldn't just sit down with special counsel Robert Muller and speak his piece.

SOUNDCLIP

RUDY GUILIANI: So what I have to tell you is look, I'm not going to be rushed into having him testify so that he gets trapped into perjury. And when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he's going to tell the truth that he shouldn't worry. Well that's so silly because it's somebody's version of the truth, not the truth. He didn't have a conversation about…

CHUCK TODD: Truth is truth. I don't mean to go like…

RG: No it isn't truth. Truth isn’t truth. The President of the United States says I didn’t…

CT: Truth isn’t truth? Mr. Mayor, do you realize what…

RG: No.

CT: This is going to become a bad meme.

RG: Don’t do this to me.

CT: Don’t do truth isn’t truth to me.

RG: Donald Trump says ‘I didn't talk about Flint with me Comey.’ Comey says ‘You did talk about it.’ Tell me what the truth is if you're such a genius?

CT: Don McGahn…

RG: Don McGahn doesn't know. If that's the situation, you have two pieces of evidence. Trump says I didn't tell them and the other guy says that he did say it which is the truth?

CT: You’re right I don’t read minds on that front. Let me ask you this question?

RG: No, no, no, no let me finish. We have a credibility gap between the two of them. You've got to select one or the other. Now who do you think Meuller is going to select? One of his best friends Comey or the president who he has been carrying on a completely wild, crazy unorthodox investigation?

CT: Is it possible he makes a conclusion based on who's been more truthful over the years?

RG: It's possible that he’ll make the conclusion on which of the two statements is more logical, which of the two statements have more common sense. Yeah, it's possible he can do that.

KG: Chuck Todd was right. Truth isn’t truth did become a meme, it set the online opinion corners ablaze. The controversy prompted Mr. Giuliani to clarify via Twitter this morning quote “My statement was not meant as a pontification on moral theology, but one referring to the situation where two people make precisely contradictory statements sometimes further inquiry can reveal the truth. Other times it doesn't.”

[Music: Acoustic Guitar]

Bandidos Asylum

Guest: Ross Coulthart

JD: In Australia he called himself a dead man running. Steven Utah was a police informant who infiltrated the Bandidos motorcycle gang. But after Australian authorities allegedly blew his cover in 2006 Mr. Utah started running. And according to new reports by ABC Australia and The Guardian Mr. Utah has taken cover in Canada. The reports say that Mr. Utah has been granted refugee status in Canada after a refugee board concluded that Australia failed to protect him. Ross Coulthart is an investigative journalist who wrote a book about Stephen Utah. We reached him in Sydney, Australia.

HM: Ross Coulthart, what was your reaction when you learned that Steven Utah had been granted refugee status in Canada?

ROSS COULTHART: I always believed Steve would get refugee status in the end because he is a genuine case of an appalling injustice metered out to a person who risked his life as a police informant to try and help penetrate a biker gang. It's just wonderful though, that Canada has seen fit to recognize what we've all accepted for a long time as the truth.

HM: Now most Canadians have probably never heard of Steven Utah, I’m wondering if you can give us a bit of his story and what he did to infiltrate the Bandidos motorcycle gang?

RC: Steve was never a patched member of the Bandidos motorcycle gang but he was what we would call an associate. He was a hang-around, if you like, inside the biker club. He was also and still is formidably intelligent. He's an ex Australian Army soldier, very well trained in moving around in the jungle. He was a wildlife smuggler. He smuggled Australian fauna and wildlife to bikers and that's how the association began. He befriended a fellow called Michael Kulakowski, who was one of the principals of the Bandidos biker gang in Sydney. And he started witnessing things and befriending senior members of the club and at one stage he witnessed a dreadful murder. Essentially what happened was Utah was the prime suspect in that murder. He's always maintained his innocence and rightly so I think, we know who did the murder. The killers are actually a couple of biker thugs from Queensland. They've never been brought to justice and the Australian police squandered the opportunity to bring these killers to justice when they mistreated Utah because they essentially blew Utah's cover.

HM: I'm sorry please go on, tell me a bit more about how they blew his cover?

RC: Well, what happened was — it's almost too ridiculous to tell but — what happened was the Australian Crime Commission at the time was our principal national crime fighting organization. The heads of that organization put out a press release whilst Utah was still inside the Bandidos as a secret informant and they revealed that they had an informant inside the Bandidos. And not surprisingly, because Utah was the newest member of the group to arrive, suspicion turned on him. He was taken to a farm behind the Sunshine Coast behind Brisbane and he was brutally beaten, left for dead. And while they went away to get a shovel to bury him he actually managed to revive himself, stood up, ran into the jungle and fled — and he kept on running. He kept on running and running and running until he got to Canada and he stayed there ever since.

HM: Tell me a bit about his life in Canada at this point as far as you know what's going on? I don’t know if you’ve been in touch with him or not, do you have any idea where he's living?

RC: Yeah. Utah has been living in a very remote part of Canada under a new name, a new identity with the assistance of your police force for quite some years. He's been giving back a lot to the Canadian and indeed the American economy because he's been a valuable witness teaching the FBI and your Mounties about outlaw motorcycle gangs.

HM: Does he feel safe in Canada?

RC: No, he never will. He knows that there is and there always will be a contract out on his life. The people who tried to kill him in Australia have every interest in killing him now because he is a witness in not only a terrible murder, he knows who did it and those people are terrifying killers. They've killed many people and never been brought to justice for it in Australia. And I think the reality is that, as he said to me in his interview, he will always be looking over his shoulder. He is a dead man running.

HM: Could he ever foresee any time when he might be able to have a life in Australia?

RC: I can’t see that, to be honest. We have a formidable problem with outlaw motorcycle gangs in Australia. Barely a month goes by in this country without some gruesome murder involving outlaw bikers killing each other over drug turf. One of the problems is that our police force, until very recently, was extensively penetrated by biker gangs and members of our Defence Force were also members of biker gangs. And there was this benign attitude to biker gangs, very naïve, by people in senior authorities and the police and the Defence Force. They genuinely thought, they had the misconception that they were just innocent men who just enjoyed riding motorcycles.

HM: Has anyone taken responsibility for revealing that information that put his life at risk?

RC: No. And in fact, they have their heads in the sand to to this day. And all credit to Canada for giving the man refuge because it sends a message to criminal informants that they will be remembered that they won't be deserted like Utah was. Utah stuck his neck out. He didn't have to do what he did. He put his life on the line to protect his country from a dreadful and insidious evil, a corrupt organised criminal organization that was killing people and distributing drugs, corrupting politicians, corrupting people under Defence Force and he helped reveal this. And for his trouble they sent him to the slaughter yard. They basically turned their back on him and it's never been adequately investigated. It was either incompetence or at worst corruption. And we may never know what exactly it was.

HM: Ross Coulthart, thank you for taking us through the story.

RC: Thank you.

KG: Ross Coulthart is an investigative journalist who wrote a book about Stephen Utah. He was in Sydney, Australia.

[Music: Hip-Hop]

Uri Avnery Obit

KG: He was one of Israel's best known journalists, a peace activist and one of the first to call for a sovereign Palestinian state. Uri Avnery died in Tel Aviv today. He was 94 years old. In his youth, Mr. Avnery joined the pre-state right wing militia Irgun. But he left the militia in 1942 because of his discomfort with its anti-Arab positions. After Israel's independence Avnery became a publisher, a member of Parliament, an author and activist. As a journalist he ran a paper called This World, an anti-establishment tabloid that brought together investigative reporting, gossip pieces and photos of nude women. His work inspired a generation of Israeli journalists and won him awards. It also made him the subject of relentless attacks — some of them physical. After the end of the 1967 war Mr. Avnery became a fierce advocate for the establishment of an Arab state alongside an Israeli one. In 1981 he became the first MP to hold up the Palestinian flag next to the Israeli one inside the Knesset. A year later, Mr. Avneri became the first Israeli to formally meet PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat. He crossed many enemy lines to interview Mr. Arafat in west Beirut at the height of the Israeli Army's siege on the city. The meeting would earn him the title of traitor by many of his critics. Avnery spoke to As It Happens host Michael Enright soon after that historic meeting. Here he is describing how he came to visit Yasser Arafat and what he saw.

SOUNDCLIP

URI AVNERY: I was in east Beirut I took the telephone I gave a call to his office in west Beirut. I ask for permission to cross the line and to see Mr. Arafat. After an hour delay permission was granted and I crossed the front lines the next morning together with two members of my staff. It was a little bit of a spooky experience, I must say, because you are crossing the lines of four armies there — all of them very trigger happy. But it came about quite peacefully in the end.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: And can you give us some idea of the mood of Mr. Arafat, the Palestinians and the residents of west Beirut? What was it like?

UA: Well, Mr. Arafat himself was very relaxed struck me as fatalistic really, as a person who say to himself that we do what we can to find a political solution but probably it will be useless anyhow because they're going to attack us and waiting for that to come. I think they are resigned to fighting it out to the last man. Not because they want it but because they have no choice. When I was a soldier in the Army I was told that it's very dangerous to put the enemy in a position where he has no way of retreat at all. We were expressly forbidden by our military status ever to create such a situation. What's happening now is that you are putting 8,000 fighting people in exactly the place. They've got nowhere to go. What can they do except fight?

KG: That was Uri Avnery speaking to As it Happens host Michael Enright in July 1982. The peace activist continued to publish a weekly column until his death. He died today at the age of 94.

[Music: Jazz]

Mary Pratt Painting

KG: What will you do with your unwanted family heirlooms? That was the question CBC Radio's Cross Country Checkup asked listeners yesterday. One woman called the show to talk about a very unexpected item from her childhood. Here's Anne Wheatly-Hicks talking to guest host Michelle Elliot.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNE WHEATLY-HICKS: Well, I have this painting, watercolour, small watercolour done by Mary Pratt who just passed away last week. She was very well known. I'm originally from Fredericton, New Brunswick and she lived around the corner from me and she was my babysitter. And once when she came to babysit she brought her paint with her when she was 17 and I was 10, and she painted my doll for me, a little doll that I had. She signed it M.W. because her maiden name was West, Mary West. And I have this piece, it's a small watercolor and it's done on a piece of shirt cardboard, which when she came she asked me to get some paper and all I knew was to get a piece of shirt cardboard under my father's shirt drawer. And she painted it on the shirt cardboard and it's a lovely little thing and probably very valuable.

KG: That was Anne Wheatly-Hicks' call yesterday to CBC Radio's cross-country checkup. Mary Pratt died last week at her home in St. John's. She was famed for her evocative paintings of objects of everyday life.

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

August 20, 2018 episode transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode