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The AIH Transcript for May 22, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music]

JD: Tonight:

CO: Where "mountain climbing is synonymous with death." Four people die in one weekend on Mount Everest but we hear from a climber who says that if you've been to the summit, you wouldn't be at all surprised.

JD: The bass is of his argument. Harvard student Obasi Shaw submits a hip hop album as his final thesis and the student-rapper says his academic stylings came at the suggestion of none other than MC-mom.

CO: Bicarbonate of sold out. It may be a staple on your kitchen shelf but an Alabama pharmacist says hospitals there are running out of baking soda and without it patients lives will be left at risk.

JD: Callin' 'em like he sees 'em. U.S. Secretary of State Wilbur Ross says it was nice not seeing so many protesters during President Trump's trip to Saudi Arabia, leaving reporters asking him about the Kingdom's record on human rights.

CO: Callin' 'em like he doesn't see 'em. Bryce Weiler tells us how he built a successful career as a baseball colour commentator even though his eyes can't see the home runs he so ably describes.

JD: And...top drawer. I say. Top drawers. An ode to Canada's late exalted monarch from a Torontonian whose collection of all things Queen Victoria includes a pair of her majesty's monogrammed underpants.
As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that promises to keep you well briefed.

Part 1: Everest deaths, baking soda shortage, Vic's underpants

Everest deaths

Guest: Alan Arnette

JEFF DOUGLAS: Every year, hundreds go up Mount Everest. And most years, some of those climbers never make it down. This weekend alone, four climbers died on the mountain.
It's been reported that at least some of those climbers died after experiencing altitude sickness.
The dead are from Slovakia, Australia, India and the U.S. In total, six people have died on Everest since March.
Alan Arnette is an experienced Everest climber who's been blogging about the Everest climbing season from his home in Colorado. We reached him in Fort Collins.

CO: Alan, what are you hearing about the mood at Everest base camp after these four deaths?

ALAN ARNETTE: Well you know that sadly, and I don't mean this to be disrespectful but death and mountain climbing are synonymous. And this year the six deaths are right in line with the historical average. It goes anywhere from two to 18 deaths since you know, ever since it’s begun to be climbed back in the 1920s. So you know if you go to Mt. Everest, then you assume that there's going to be a death on the mountain. And occasionally it will happen on your team. It’s devastating but you continue.

CO: There is a record number of permits given I guess this year to climb to the summit, and a record number of people who actually achieved the summit this weekend. Would that have an effect on the people who died?

AA: Well it appears that the six people who died, it looks like that two were from a fall. One was just a wonderful wonderful Nepali gentleman that was 86 years old, and he was attempting to set the age record, and then the other the other three were altitude related.
So I think it's safe to say that it had nothing to do with the weather and those deaths had nothing to do with the number of people on the mountain.

CC: Let’s just talk about just one of the deaths that we have got some details about, this man Francesco Marchetti, and he had he didn't make the summit. He was going back down because he was not feeling well, and he was at 8300 meters suffering altitude sickness when he took his last breath. So I know you weren't there, but if you could describe what those conditions were like. What his last moments may have been like.

AA: Well it does sound like that he had, he was descending to the lower camps they said, and he was suffering from altitude sickness. The issue with altitude sickness as it comes on unbelievably rapid. And he was probably moving along and probably was fatigued, very tired. And all of a sudden you have a shortness of breath perhaps, or you just have this debilitating fatigue.
I personally experienced a pulmonary edema, which is where you have fluid building up in your lungs. It's not obvious what's happening to you. You just slowly start losing all of your energy and you start losing your motivation. And honestly it's very easy to just succumb to the mountain and sit down in the snow and be willing to sit there for eternity. It's a very strange phenomenon.
And that's the reason that you need to be climbing with people that have experience, that are stronger than you are, for example the Sherpas or the Tibetans I support those sides of the mountain. And going with a company that has experience that has the proper staffing.

CO: And he was an experienced climber, in fact all the ones who died were, had experience with mountaineering, and that if you could just, I mean it's impossible for anyone who has not done this to just imagine what it's like and what what's going on in your mind and what you're seeing when you're in that, at that altitude going through that. If you could just take us in there.

AA: Obviously I have no idea what was going through his head at the last moment. But I can tell you that when I've been high on a mountain like K2 and I was dealing with the pulmonary edema it's a, it's a series of different types of emotion. It ranges from sadness. It ranges from being euphoric. Lots of different emotions go through your mind. But one thing that that was a overriding emotion for me was a sense of peace. I can't explain to you where that piece came from but I knew that if it was to be, to sit down in the snow and sit there for eternity I was comfortable with that. And I would hope that that Mr. Marchetti also had that same sense of peace says as he sat down on the snow.

CO: We spoke with a woman a Canadian woman who was, saw, she did the summit, but she said she was describing seeing bodies and that people died. The often remains can't be brought down. Having to kind of step over those remains, even recent ones was deeply shocking to her. But she did it. She knew that was what you did. You just went around the body and carried on.
What keeps people going despite the fact that they are seeing those who are surviving the climb?

AA: That's tragic in this weekend with death with four people dying on the mountain, I am positive that there are people did see bodies on the trail. I sadly had to bury a teammate on one of these 8000 meter mountains. We zipped him up in his sleeping bag and we lowered him into a crevice and had a short ceremony for him. It causes you to re-evaluate why you're there and you have to be very clear in your motives before you go to a mountain like Mt. Everest because there's a thousand reasons to turn around and there's only one to keep going.
And when you see a body, that in that moment, that brings that equation into focus. And it’s devastating. You think about their family. You know that you know their spouse and or perhaps their children or a parent will never see that person again. And it does cause you maybe to double check everything and to become very careful and as you go forward because you don't want to join that person.

CO: Alan, just finally, some of the climbers are saying that this crucial part of the trek up there, the Hillary Step as it's called, that it’s gone or has been destroyed or it's now misshapen. What does that mean for climbers if Hillary’s Step isn't there?

AA: Reports that we're getting in says that it's a snow slope right now. It’s still somewhat difficult because you're almost at 29,000 feet and you're climbing with the oxygen mask on and you know crampons. So it's very awkward and at that altitude, almost anything you do is awkward. The real question is going to be when the snow is gone, will it return back to a rock embankment or will it be something that will be simple. And we won't know that question. Maybe not, maybe next year or maybe not. All depends upon the snow levels.

CO: Alan, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AA: Thank you.

JD: Alan Arnette is a mountain climber and blogger. We reached him in Fort Collins, Colorado.

[Music]

Wilbur Ross

JD: US Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross likes to keep things plain and simple. Back in 2012, he told CNBC, quote: "I like things I can understand and that aren't too complicated."
Of course, everyone does. The downside of a "what-you-see-is-what-you-get" world view is that sometimes there's stuff you don't get to see.
That appears to be exactly what happened to Secretary Ross over the weekend, as he accompanied U.S. President Donald Trump on his official visit to Saudi Arabia.
Earlier today he shared some of his impressions of the country with CNBC's Becky Quick. Here's a bit of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

WILBUR ROSS: There's no question that they’ve liberalized in on their society. And I think the other thing that was fascinating to me, there was not a single hint of a protester anywhere there during the whole time we were there. Not one guy with a bad placard. Instead–

BECKY QUICK: But Secretary Rice that maybe but not necessarily because they don't have those feelings there but because they control people and don't allow them to come in to express their feelings quite the same as we do here.

WR: In theory that could be true but boy there was certainly no sign of it. There was not a single effort at any incursion. There wasn't anything. The mood was a genuinely good mood. And at the end of the trip, as I was getting back on the plane, the security guards from the Saudi side had been helping us over the weekend, all wanted to pose for a big photo op and then they gave me two gigantic bushels of dates as a present, a thank you for the trip that we had. That was a pretty from the heart, a very genuine gesture, and it really touched me.

JD: OK. Couple of points. Governments take note: Secretary Ross is a cheap date. Apparently all it takes is an eagerness for photo-ops and a handful of dried fruit. To clarify though, it is not something that could quote “in theory be true” that anyone who dares to protest in Saudi Arabia faces harsh punishment, is a well-documented fact that demonstrating is a capital crime in Saudi Arabia and it could lead to imprisonment, torture, and even a sentence of death by beheading.

[Music]

Baking soda shortage

Guest: Gino Agnelly

JD: Hospitals across the United States are facing a serious shortage of an important drug: sodium bicarbonate.
Or, what the rest of us call... baking soda.
The dwindling supply is even forcing some hospitals to postpone procedures.
Gino Agnelly is the head of pharmacy at Providence Hospital in Mobile, Alabama. That's where we reached him.

CO: Mr. Agnelli, I think it would come as a surprise to lay people that sodium bicarbonate, baking soda, is something crucial for hospitals. What's it used for?

GINO AGNELLY: Well, sodium bicarbonate has several purposes, mostly it’s used to regulate the PH in the body. When you suffer a trauma, insult to the kidney, cardiac event, anything like that the body tends to become very acidic. It's essential that you give sodium bicarb so that it neutralizes that acid and allows your body to exist in a ph where it can heal itself.

CO: And how long have you been dealing with a shortage of sodium bicarbonate?

GA: This is our second recent shortage. 2012 we had some intermittent outage but we managed to maintain a usable supply. This year, however, about the last six weeks we have seen our supplies steadily dwindling to a point where about three weeks ago, we reached what I consider to be critical levels. I needed to ask my hospital administration and my medical staff to consider alternate sources of therapy for patients to try to conserve what we had.

CO: Can you just describe that moment when you did hit that crisis?

GA: Certainly certainly it was. It was it was a disturbing moment. We brought everyone together. We discussed the alternatives and we quickly came to the realization that there were not a lot of clinical alternatives. We knew one of the critical patient populations that we used the drug in were our cardiac surgery patients that used it in the days and weeks following surgery. So we really wanted to make sure that we communicated the shortage to our surgeons. They got to work with us to triage need. The week we called the meeting on Monday morning, we had seven open heart surgery scheduled for the next two days. So we approached the cardiovascular surgeons and we asked them to consider delaying any of those surgeries that were elective.
Turns out that the cardiovascular surgeons were very thankful for that communication. They were willing to triage their patients and they made some decisions for us that allowed us to be able to not only not create a sudden burden on our supply, but it gave us time to get in an emergency order which we were able to obtain from Pfizer, of 200 vials, which really did relieve the stress on our system at that point.

CO: But there's still a shortage of sodium bicarbonate for hospitals.

GA: There is still a shortage. At the time, when I considered us at a critical shortage, we had about 135 vials in stock. This morning, we're sitting back up at about 300 thanks to that emergency shipment and the conservation efforts of our medical staff. Approximately 30 day supply, and Pfizer is indicating that June or July would be a potential release date for them to return to our normal supply chain. So it's going to be close. We're monitoring it on a daily basis if we happen to have a patient that experienced a significant cardiac event, it would not be unusual for that patient to use anywhere from 30 to 50 miles in a 24 hour period.

CO: Why is it so difficult to obtain. I mean is there a rare chemical involved here or is there something–

GA: No, this is baking soda. I imagine there's one in every refrigerator in the country. The problem is, we're seeing this quite frequently here in the U.S. in particular, the manufacturers and the distributors of these products have steadily merged and joined forces and gotten into a situation where you have 80 to 90 percent of the market share is held by one manufacturer. They through, for economic purposes. They streamlined their manufacturing. They use a distribution supply chain that is as affordable and economical and efficient as possible, and that's all well and good when everything works correctly. But when you have a hiccup, whether it be governmental oversight, maybe you fail a quality assurance testing on a particular batch of product, or you know there's bad weather in one part of the country, suddenly you've introduced stress on that supply chain and had no built in redundancies. And now the entire country suffers. It's become a sad reality of every day practice of medicine in our country right now.

CO: And just for this particular ad as have sensors or others like this as well?

GA: No there are there are 55 drug products listed right now that are experiencing some level of shortage back order non-availability. This one really has taken the cake for me because the potential to impact so many patients. It's a simple product, we have such a widespread potential use for it and there is no readily available clinical alternative. Sodium bicarb’s basic chemistry. I think everyone learns that freshman chemistry. But again, we're talking about basic life sustaining medication.

CO: And so what is Pfizer, because this is the source of most of it. What is Pfizer saying about their shortage? What did they tell you?

GA: They had a press release where they did acknowledge the shortage, obviously and they quoted in the e-mail that they had experienced a supply disruption with a third party vendor and they stated that they had confidentiality agreements in place which did not allow them to disclose anything more than that.

CO: I'm sure everybody in your country and in Canada would bundle up all the baking soda in their house and send it to you immediately if they thought that could help. But so it can't be that simple obviously, but is there are there other places you can go in order to obtain this?

GA: Well I'm a member, my hospital is a member of Ascension. They are a Catholic Health organization that operates about 120 hospitals here in the U.S. And they are actually looking at petitioning the FDA as we speak to see if we could get a temporary allowance to import from Europe. I do not know if this supply shortage has impacted Europe. Pfizer is a multinational organization so I would think if they have not been able to cross that bridge and import product in the U.S., that I worry that it's not available there either. But that is one avenue we are pursuing.

CO: We tried to find out we were calling around to see if we could discover whether the same thing happened here. Well maybe our listeners even will be able to help us out. A lot of them work in hospitals so we'll find out. But this sounds quite critical and we'll be following this story, Mr. Agnelly. I appreciate speaking with you.

CO: Thank you. Thank you so much.

JD: Gino Agnelly is the head of pharmacy at Providence Hospital in Mobile, Alabama, and that's where we reached him.

[Music]

Vic’s underpants

Guest: Barbara Rush

JD: Barbara Rush is not cracking open a 2-4 to mark the May 2-4 long weekend. Nor is she slapping some dogs on the grill. No. For Barbara Rusch, Victoria Day is a day of serious celebration, and it is a time to honour the Queen for which it's named.
The Toronto area property manager is on her 4th decade as a collector of pretty much anything Queen Victoria might have touched. Including a pair of the Queen's unmentionables. She debuted her under-ode to the Empress at a meeting of the Canadian Royal Heritage Trust. We reached her shortly beforehand in Toronto.

CO: Barbara, happy Victoria Day.

BARBARA RUSH: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be with you on this very special day.

CO: Well why is it special for you?

BR: Well for me I feel like I'm queen for a day. I think that it's so important to honor Queen Victoria, especially this year as we're about to celebrate the 150th anniversary of Confederation. I think it's especially important to understand the key role that Victoria played in uniting this country.

CO: I understand this is also your wedding anniversary.

BR: It is. We ended up getting married on May 24th for the very reason that I wanted to celebrate our anniversary together with Queen Victoria's birthday.

CO: How did your husband feel about that?

BR: He is so accommodating, my husband. He’s just a jem. And he's all for it. He's my best supporter in all my fanaticism.

CO: Your fanaticism as you call it is has led you to create quite the collection of Victoria mementos. And just tell us a bit about what you've got.

BR: One of my favorites is a bracelet that actually belong to Queen Victoria that was given to her by her youngest daughter Beatrice. And the band of the bracelet consists of Beatrice's woven hair. There is a locket, a golden locket and inside is a watercolor of Beatrice and she gave that memento to her mother the queen on the occasion of her confirmation.
Another is that, I'm known as a bit of a crazy lady for having this, but I bid on and was the successful bidder of a pair of Queen Victoria's knickers.

CO: Her underpants.

BR: Her underpants.

CO: You have her underpants.

BR: I do Carol. And you know, you might think oh well I'm sort of making light of the Queen. But far from it. Really what is more humanizing to a person than their underwear? She had to step into them one leg at a time just as all the rest of us do. And I find that that makes her very human. She wanted to think of herself as a very ordinary human being in many ways, not as the queen.

CO: What do they look like, her underpants?

BR: They're very large Carol. This was a woman who lived large, and towards the end of her life, she was just about the same horizontally as she was vertically and in terms of measurements.

CO: So what are we talking, what size are we…

BR: Well I think we'd be talking XXXL here.

CO: Yes. But she wasn't always that heavy. Didn't she gain all that weight after her beloved Prince Albert died?

BR: Well don't forget that she had nine children. And that will tend to do something to your figure. She was very lovely. She had a very beautiful figure when she took the throne in 1837. But don't forget, she was 18 years old at that time. Then she had nine children and she loved to eat. I have in my collection a number of menus from the palace, and this woman could down a six course dinner in less than 30 minutes.So there's a reason why she gained all that weight and of course, they didn't have the understanding of nutrition and diet in the 19th century that they do now.

CO: Let's just go back to the knickers for a moment here. I mean have you ever tried them on?

BR: No. I would find that a little bit sacrilegious. And fortunately they wouldn't fit me.

CO: Not even step into them just to get, because you were enjoying this, getting to know the intimate side of her.

BR: I am and I probably should. I think I'm a little nervous about ripping them or destroying them somehow.

CO: How much did you pay for them?

BR: Well I paid a fair sum but not as much as they're worth to me because they're a piece of history. They’re monetary value has very little to do with it for me.

CO: And how do you think you ended up on the market.

BR: I I'm pretty sure I know exactly how they ended up on the market. She was in the habit of giving out pieces of her wardrobe to members of her family, to her ladies in waiting, to various courtiers, as kind of mementos. I also have a very large swatch of a beautiful beaded gown that she gave to one of her ladies in waiting. And I have my latest acquisition, a tiny little swatch of her coronation dress which to me is just so wonderful to have this artifact in my collection. I feel so honored, so privileged.

CO: Where do you keep all these mementoes?

BR: Well I actually have a very small house but I managed to find room for all of it. It's like finding room for your children. You know you never run out of room.

CO: And that accommodating husband of yours is–

BR: He is very accommodating. He helps me in all of these auctions actually, acquire these pieces.

CO: And you've written something, an ode to Queen Victoria.

BR: I have and I'm going to be delivering it this afternoon at a Victorian tea.

CO: You want to give us a short passage.

BR: I will, I will.
Queen from a distance. She never came to our shores though we loved her and in her name fought her wars with more landmarks named Victoria than any place else in the world in the land of the maple leaf, to her our flag was unfurled. The only country that still marks her birthday, Canada honors her every twenty fourth of May. They discarded the mould from which she was cast. Like her statues, her memory was built to last. This little verse in the primmer I read, describing her world and the life that she led. Beautiful England on her island throne, grandly she rules with half the world her own. From her vast empire the sun never departs. She reigns a Queen, Victoria, queen of hearts.

CO: All right. That goes out as a tribute to the woman who gave us the holiday. All those people out with their barbecues.

BR: That’s right, they’re not getting the full importance of the day.

CO: And you've done it for us Barbara, thank you.

BR: My pleasure.

CO: Enjoy your day.

BR: Thank you.

JD: Barbara Rusch is a Toronto area commercial property manager and owner of Queen Victoria's massive bloomers. We reached her in Toronto.

Part 2: Harvard rap thesis, baseball announcer

Harvard rap thesis

Guest: Obasi Shaw

JEFF DOUGLAS: Many many students spend their final year in university writing their theses. But for Obasi Shaw, he was busy rapping his.
The Harvard English major submitted a rap album called "Liminal Minds" as his senior thesis. That's a first for the Ivy League school.
And, it has earned Mr Shaw top grades -- enough to help him graduate with honours. We reached Obasi Shaw in Cambridge, Massachussetts.

CAROL OFF: Obasi, how did you stop to respond when you proposed a rap album as your senior thesis?

OBASI SHAW: Surprisingly well. I was definitely very shocked that they accepted it. So the way that it works is that in the English department we're allowed to apply to write a creative thesis which is generally a book of poetry or short stories or that sort of thing. And so I knew I wanted to do some form of creative thesis but I didn't know what form, and I had just started rapping a few months before. So then my mom suggested that I write a rap album as a creative thesis and I thought they would never accept that, it’s never happened. But then, the day before the application was due, I thought well I have no other ideas. Might as well use my one chance on this.

CO: This was your mom's idea.

OS: Yeah yeah. And so yeah and I completely like rejected it and when she said it and then I like put something together at the last minute and just tried it, sent it in, and my advisor Josh Bell, he for some reason really wanted to do it, and he's been a great adviser. Like I expected nothing from it. I expected that I would not get it and I'd write a normal thesis and life would go on.

CO: And this has ever been anybody submit a rap album as a thesis at Harvard University before.

OS: Yeah no. Never before.

CO: Now tell us a bit about what is in it? What kind of lyrics you've included in your album.

OS: It's called Liminal Minds and it's about the liminality of experience. “Liminal” is a word that means in between two states. And so I heard a quote that talked about how black people in America are caught between freedom and slavery that although we're no longer slaves, they're still the effects of slavery in society and on our consciousness. And so liminal minds just came to mind as kind of almost a contrast to criminal minds, where people think a lot of times envision black people as criminals, when in reality there is just this limitality that we're dealing with. That we can understand black minds as liminal minds as opposed to just immediately writing people off saying that there's no depth to their experience when in reality it's extremely deep and complex experience. So the album is dealing with that. It's like stories told from different perspectives, from different kind of characters of their own experience of being black in America and the different ways with that’s liminal.

CO: And then each cut is a different story. It is, as you say, from a different character. Tell us some of the stories you tell in this.

OS: So the first one that's an actual story, the first two tracks are kind of intro tracks. The third one is called Beast and there's a story about a kid who's killed in gang violence and it just kind of him telling his life and like what he wanted to do with his life and kind of how the world sees him as a beast.
And then there's another one, like there's the second to last song on the album called Born Browner and the story of a kid who gets caught up in drug dealing and then gets life without parole sentence at 18. And it's based on a true story of an actual guy who's been in prison for 23 years.

CO: What inspiration did you take from Geoffrey Chaucer, from the Canterbury Tales?

OS: The Canterbury Tales. It's a collection of stories told by these average ordinary people of many different walks of life who come together to go on a pilgrimage to Canterbury and they tell each other stories on the way. And just the fact that it's these ordinary people telling their own stories just really appealed to me and it was kind of an overarching idea that was in my mind as I wrote the album, that it would be the ordinary people, ordinary black people telling their own stories.

CO: You said that you just became involved with rap music and rap lyrics quite recently. I wonder how you approach the controversy within many rap lyrics that include misogyny or violence. How do you deal with those issues in rap?

OS: So I am definitely very conscious of that and trying to even critique that some in my album. But at the same time, every art form can be used for good and evil. I wouldn't blame the art form as much as I blame the popular culture that kind of thrives on those ideas. But one thing that I had to deal with a lot is like rap is an art form born of oppression and it's reactive. And I think that that’s valuable to the culture, that it is abrasive. And I think that I definitely deal with trying to keep that abrasiveness in that respect of black culture.

CO: And the abrasiveness is part of it, but the commercial aspect as you just mentioned, is something else. And so you still see rap still as a very credible very important vehicle for black experience and to for people to be able to express what life has been like as a black American.

OS: I do because I think that just the fact that it is a black art form, that it was developed by black people means that it's something that we can take ownership of, or even black people can think about in a very different way from other art forms. If I want to honor the black community that I'm writing about, I want to use one of our mediums. I’m talking about them but I'm talking with them. I'm expressing myself as part of a larger culture of expression instead of entering from the outside and kind of passing judgment or that sort of thing. That's not at all what I'm trying to do I'm trying to get as much as I am into the culture and speak lovingly with for and about what it means to be black.

CO: What grade did you get?

OS: I got a Summa Cum Laude minus. Which is basically an A, an A-minus, but it's an A.

CO: And was your mum pleased?

OS: Yeah absolutely.

CO: Well congratulations Obasi.

OS: Thank you.

CO: And we're going to play one of your songs after we say goodbye but I really I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.

OS: Thank you.

JD: Obasi Shaw is an English student, an English honors student at Harvard, and we reached him in Cambridge.

[Music]

Al Green

JD: U.S. Congressman Al Green says calling for President Trump's impeachment led to some phone calls he simply could not keep to himself.
Last week Mr. Green, who is an African-American Democrat from Texas, stood on the floor of the House and called for the impeachment of his president over allegations that Mr. Trump had obstructed an investigation into alleged ties between his campaign and Russia.
Then on Saturday, in Houston, Congressman Green shared two racist telephone phone calls that he subsequently received. We’re going to play them. And a warning, the following content is disturbing:

SOUNDCLIP

CALLER: I didn’t see anyone calling for the impeachment of your N-word Obama. He was born in Kenya, he’s not even an American. So f--k you N-word.

CALLER 2: Hey Al Green, we’ve got an impeachment for you and it's going to be yours. Sadly we'll give you a short trial before we hang your N-word a--.

JD: So those were phone calls received and then shared by African-American Congressman Al Green, Democrat of Texas on Saturday. The congressman says that those were just two of several such calls that have come in since he began calling for President Trump to be impeached.

[Music]

Baseball announcer

Guest: Bryce Weiler

JD: Bryce Weiler was born blind. He's also a well-practiced sports announcer.
The 26-year-old's specialty is colour commentary for baseball. He's also called basketball and soccer. He's worked dozens of college and minor league games.
Here is Mr. Weiler calling a recent ball game for Connecticut's New Britain Bees, alongside play-by-play commentator Chris Knoblock.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRIS KNOBLOCK: What are your thoughts on today's match up against Somerset?

BRYCE WEILER: Hopefully, Nebretan can come out and have a hot start because they got down early and left a pitcher and a little bit to absorb some of those innings, not wanting to tire out the bullpen. But keeping the game as close as possible will give the Bees a chance to continue to gain ground in the standings pitches in there for a strike.

JD: That was blind disability advocate Bryce Weiler calling a recent baseball game in Connecticut. We reached Mr. Weiler in Chicago.

CO: Bryce, what inspired you to become a baseball commentator?

BRYCE WEILER: Well I've enjoyed listening to games on the radio throughout my life. Listening to Brian Barnhart commentating games with the University of Illinois, and Don Fischer commentating games for Indiana University football and basketball for both of those broadcasters. And it really helped me develop a love and interest for sports.

CO: And you do what’s called “the color commentary” alongside another announcer who would do the play by play, is that right?

BW: I analyze what is happening in the game, since I cannot see the action on the field. So I look up statistics on players and coaches as well as trying to speak to any player or coach from each team as well.

CO: So just give me an idea of if for those who don’t know how this works. What exactly, how do you approach the job, what do you have to do?

BW: So I read as many articles on players and coaches as I can. I try to listen to each team's game. Previously a couple of games for both teams. I try to visit with a player or coach from each team and just try to really get a great understanding of each team’s style of play and also interesting articles about the lives of the players on those teams.

CO: But you also have to be responding to what's going on in the game, right? So how much can you actually tell about what's happening on the field from the sound?

BW: I also pay attention by tracking first pitch strikes. It can be really useful when there is a good crowd microphone so I can hear the umpire calling up catch a ball or a strike. So I did not have to let the other commentators say that. I can tell the listener what the pitch was called so I can continue with my thought or continue with what I was talking about instead of having the momentary lapse where the other commentator picks up and calls the pitch.

CO: Interesting. And so can you read can you tell is going on by listening to, I don't know how the bat strikes the ball or how the catcher catches it.

BW: Sometimes I can tell but it’s best not to guess because you don’t want to be wrong.

CO: And as you can imagine people would presume that you have to see a sport in order to actually see what's happening in the game. But you're showing that that's not the case.

BW: Well sports on the radio are meant to be absorbed by individuals who for the most part cannot see the game because they're driving around in their car or at home or working in the yard. So it's the best place for me to commentate because the play by play commentator has to describe so much of the action, where as if this was on television, the commentator would be allowing the pictures to describe what was happening.

CO: You know, and for anyone who has listened to a game of any sport on the radio, they would you know attest to that. That there's just something quite exciting about listening to a game, just sort of seeing it in your mind and following it with just listening. So it's kind of a similar experience I would imagine.

BW: When one listens to a game, he or she can get pictures in his mind of what the commentator says about the vendors coming around, hawking peanuts and hot dogs or of a foul ball hit into the stands and the mad scramble by small children to go chasing after that baseball. So it's really a theater of the mind and it's, as if a book is opening up on the radio in front of you with the book being the setting of the game being played on the field.

CO: It’s also that wonderful sound of the ballpark, isn't it. The audio, just the largeness of the space that you hear.

BW: It's important for commentators to have great crowd microphones so that fans at home can hear the sounds of children screaming and happiness when they get a baseball or people being frustrated when a team does not make the play that they wish that they would have made, so having a good crowd microphone is a integral part to a radio broadcast.

CO: I understand you know the Blue Jays commentator Jerry Howarth. What have you learned from him?

BW: I really like listening to Jerry Howard on XM Satellite Radio because I enjoy listening to how he brings the batter up to the plate using the P.A. announcer for the Toronto Blue Jays. Every time I know Jerry is commentating some innings, I'll turn those on. He also has a great crowd microphone so I can really hear the ball hitting the catcher's mitt and hitting the dirt as well. Or the ball hitting off the bat.

CO: How did people react when they tell you when you tell them what you're doing, that you do baseball commentary. What do they say?

BW: Well most people are rather excited and astounded that I can commentate sports on the radio but it doesn't really surprise me because I've commentated over 100 sporting events with baseball, basketball and soccer throughout my history of commentating games.

CO: But what obstacles have you encountered in the course of trying to prove to people in the business and in the industry that you're good at what you do?

BW: Well I think that it's going to be hard for me to find a job commentating games because most of the analysts go to former players and coaches and the play by play roles are handled by individuals who can see, and since I cannot see, I can't do play by play, but I'll still continue to commentator's many games as I can.

CO: And what kind of response have you had from the industry? Any place where they say well how can you possibly do well in this business if you can't see?

BW: There's other commentators who have been blind before who have commentated game so I don't really concern myself with what other people think. I just try to go out and commentate the best that I can every day and analyze what is happening in games.

CO: You recently been hired by the team whose game we heard you calling just on the show tonight, and this is a new Britain Bees. What will you be doing for them?

BW: So I'm going to commentate for them a little bit. Some of their games but also working to create programs to help disabled fans have better experiences at there at their home games and also giving these disabled individuals and groups opportunities to play on the field because that is where I can really help individuals is through using my journey through sports to help them have the same experiences that I've been able to have in my life through sports.

CO: And what's your goal? Where do you want to be?

BW: I would like to be anywhere that I could create programs to help disabled fans have better experiences and however many teams I can help, that that's who I would like to help.

CO: Bryce, it's great to talk to you, and I wish you the best with your career.

BW: Thank you.

CO: Take care. Bye-bye.

JD: Bryce Wilder is a baseball color commentator. He also happens to be blind. We reached Mr. Wyler in Chicago.

[Music]

Paint colours

JD: Janelle Shane

JD: Healing Aloe. Poised Taupe. And Dragons Blood.
Those are some very real names of paint colours. That probably won't surprise you too much ... because, if you've ever had to buy paint you'll know that the names can be pretty ridiculous, and not to mention unhelpful in actually describing what the colour might be.
So, what if I told you a name like Sane Green or something like Sticks Red? Those probably wouldn't surprise you too much either. But those ones were created by a computer.
It's part of an artificial intelligence project put together by Janelle Shane. According to a blog post posted last week, the research scientist gave what's called a "neural network" thousands of Sherwin-Williams paint names, along with their colour codes. Then, she asked: "Could the neural network learn to invent new paint colors and give them attractive names?"
Well it did, sort of. At first, the names didn't really make sense did they. But then, they got better -- and sometimes corresponded with the colour.
So here are some of the names the algorithm came up with: There's Grass Bat, Flower, Stanky Bean, Stoner Blue, Testing, Dope, Stargood, Bank Butt, Turdly, and Ferry, F-E-R-R-Y Purple. And that's just a few of them.
As Ms. Shane said in her post, "The neural network has really really bad ideas for paint names."

Part 3: Nigeria inequity, Apple pizza box

Tick-mageddon

JEFF DOUGLAS: You know it's bad when they attached the suffix “mageddon” onto whatever it happens to be. In this case, it has been attached to the name for a creature that attaches itself to you and then gorges itself on your blood. And to hear Karis Penner -- who's experienced it first-hand -- "Tick-mageddon" is every bit as dreadful as the hyperbolic term suggests.
Ms. Penner recently returned from a hiking trip along the Mantario Trail -- a 63-kilometre backcountry footpath in Manitoba's Whiteshell Provincial Park that skirts the Ontario border.
And as she told the CBC's Laura Glowacki, even though she, her husband and two friends are now out of the woods -- they're still haunted by their encounter with Tick-mageddon.

SOUNDCLIP

KARIS PENNER: I mean if we would have known how many there were, we wouldn't have gone. We weren't expecting, like the first day actually was not bad. And the second, like the closer we got to Mantario and to the north it just got worse. And by that time it's too late. You’re already in the trail and you just have to deal with it.

LAURA GOLWACKI: So how many things do you think landed on you?

KP: Like for all of us? 400 was not overexaggerating because we would stop for water breaks like you know 10 15 minutes you know hiking, stop again and especially the guys I don't know if it was their pants or what it was but they collected, like they took 20 off at a time. The ones that were actually stuck or skin was way less you know just because we were checking so much but off our clothing, I mean easily 400 in that weekend.

LG: Did you get bites?

KP: Yeah we did get a few. Kike ones that are actually attached. I'd say maybe ten. The guys probably the same, like 10 to 15 maybe, that were actually attached. So it wasn't like too too many, but we were pretty vigilant with taking them off every time we could. But and then after we like we'd wash in the evening, put clean clothes on, and still, they still were on us. I don't know where they all came from but I won’t be camping in Manitoba again until tick season’s over I think because that was just overwhelming and you never know. You know I've heard stories of people's Lyme disease so it is a real concern.
But they’re still, like I've washed all the clothes and some of them haven't died. Like I still am getting them in the house. I've gotten, like I've seen one in the cupboard, one on my clean dishes and we didn't take our clothing in like we let them everything sit outside overnight when I got home to hopefully get rid of them but they are just, they're strong little guys. They're hard to get rid of. You still think they're on you. It's hard to get rid of that feeling that something's crawling on you. So I keep checking.

JD: Karis Penner, describing to the CBC's Laura Glowacki the relentless onslaught of ticks she, her husband and two friends encountered while hiking Manitoba's Mantario Trail last week.

[Music]

Nigeria inequity

Guest: Celestine Okwudili Odo

JD: In Nigeria, it is not just a gap between rich and poor. It is a chasm.
In a new report, Oxfam says the combined wealth of the five richest men in the country could lift nearly all Nigerians out of extreme poverty for a year. And corruption in the country is making the problem even worse.
Celestine Okwudili Odo is Oxfam's Nigeria Good Governance Programme Coordinator. We reached him in Abuja.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Odo, you have a lot of numbers in this report and we're going to get to some of them in a moment. But just in human terms, how different is the life of the poorest Nigerian compared to the richest?

CELESTINE OKWUDILI ODO: Yeah. The life of the poor in Nigeria is difficult. No looking at a minimum wage. Minimum wage is 10,000 Nigerian naira in Nigeria. 10,000 naira cannot buy a bag of rice to feed a family. And this is monthly income.

CO: Wow. And now, if you looked at this over the past five years where you've seen this extraordinary difference between the richest and the poorest in Nigeria. What has made, what has driven these two poles so far apart just in the past five years?

COO: You look at the economic structure. Looking at our growth pattern. You know over the period of this period [unintelligible] five years, less than between the last three or four years, we've had you know we’ve had consecutive six seven percent growth. You know. You knowk, within the same period the number of millionaires increase up to 44 percent. But the number of poor people increased is between 2003 and 2010 from 69 million to 112 million. That’s huge.

CO: So why is that happening?

COO: You know, why that is happening because the growth we are having it. It's not inclusive. You know people really so, what it means is that very few people are benefiting from the economic growth. So what is wrong? And for this we are identified that in fact was the [unintelligible], the spending and within the economy. Looking at our taxation system, looking at the poor pedestrian location.

CO: Because as you point out in this report is that Nigeria, the economy is doing well. There has been this. It's celebrated in Africa as a country where there is a growing middle class, where there's a lot more wealth, where people are living at a very good a good level of income. But you're showing in this that the gulf between the rich and the poor is growing at a much faster rate than the economy is.

COO: Yeah that's exactly what we are portraying here. That is exactly what is happening in our economy. Just before the recession, which we’re experiencing now, you know, the economy grow so high, up to six seven percent. But at the same time, the number of poor people are increasing, you know? Automatically, people should be enjoying this wealth, they should be a common wealth. But it’s not. So what is happening? And that is what is happening is [unintellivible] and that is what, we raising this alarm.

CO: What are you proposing as solutions to address this difference?

COO: Yes. First of all, we said that the government should look at the [unintelligible]. You know, we identified three poor areas: health education and agriculture. We are saying that government should invest more in these areas. Because for instance agriculture, you know more than 50 percent of the population are employed by agriculture. So government should invest more on this. It really creates employment. You know we are saying that government should also scale up social intervention programs.

CO: And you point out in the report, the biggest problem probably is the taxation rate that you. Because if there is this enormous wealth and is not making it down to the lowest levels, then is there something has to be done with how that wealth is redistributed to taxation?

COO: Yes that’s the core of the whole thing because taxation for us is seen as a veritable truth in terms of redistribution. We also recommended that report, yeah the tax system now is so retrogressive. So how do we make it so be more progressive? Get the rich people, get the multinationals, get the high network individuals to pay share of the taxation.

CO: Yeah. And you point out as well, I mean this is a key aspect of the economy in Nigeria is the level of corruption. And you report, you show that between 1960 and 2005, 20 trillion has been stolen from the treasury by public office holders. I mean this, there's tremendous amount of corruption in the country. How do you go about changing that because that's obviously contributing to the poverty that you're describing.

COO: Of course. These are monies live in that country. This are money that should have been invested in social, in social services. 20 trillion dollars. When you invest that on education, invest it on health, invest it agriculture, that will be a total transformation. So and this data is not [unintelligible] did not manufacture this data. This data came from the EFCC. EFCC is the agency responsible for fighting corruption in Nigeria. So it's not like we manufactured this data. It’s data from the government agency. You know so the magnitude of corruption in Nigeria is so high. It’s the major challenge. You have, it runs so deep into the fabric of our society, right from the public services, public servant, politicians, year in year out. And but should why is this happening? This is because of weak institution. You know how we [unintelligible], close up leakages, automate the system. It is not about strong individuals. It’s about strong institutions.

CO: Mr. Odo, it’s a very valuable report and I appreciate that you would come on and tell us about it. Thank you.

COO: Thank you very much. You're welcome.

CO: Good night.

JD: Celestine Okwudili Odo is Oxfam's Nigeria Good Governance Programme Coordinator. We reached him in Abuja, Nigeria.

[Music]

Mini-Update: Thunder Bay

JD: And now, an update on a story we brought you last week, when a body was pulled from McIntyre River in Thunder Bay, Ontario. That body is believed to be Josiah Begg.
Josiah was a 14-year-old boy from a nearby First Nation, who has been missing since May 6th. On May 8th, the body of 17-year-old girl, Tammy Keeash was also pulled from the MacIntyre.
On Friday, we spoke to Ontario Regional Chief Isadore Day and Chief Day said "it's clear that the police haven't been doing enough."
That is an allegation that has been made against the Thunder Bay Police in the past... which is why Ontario's police watchdog is already undergoing a systemic review of the way the force polices indigenous peoples.
Now, the Office of the Independent Police Review Director has confirmed they it will include Josiah Begg and Tammy Keeash's cases in their review. The review, at this point, is in the fact-finding phase.

[Music]

Future Library

JD: In these days of technology and on-demand printing, creating a book an afternoon’s work.
Well, once you have written the thing, but once that's done, you just push a few buttons, you publish your book, or you publish it as an ebook, or you create as many hardcovers as you want.
That's just a little too speedy for the folks at the Future Library.
The project is the creation of an artist named Katie Paterson who has overseen the planting of a thousand trees in Norway that will - eventually - be turned into paper.
The project will also collect one manuscript a year for the next hundred years. And then - and only then - will those words be turned into actual books. The first author to submit her work: Margaret Atwood, followed last year by Britain's David Mitchell.
And This year, Icelandic poet, novelist and lyricist Sjon has submitted a manuscript. All have been sworn to secrecy about the contents. Sjon ave an interview to the future library about his work. He says as a surrealist, he sees the project in part as a game. Here's part of what he had to say:

SOUNDCLIP

SJON: One of the reasons aim was very important for the surrealists was that they were trying to get away from the eco. From the individualistic aspect of art. They were trying to come to a point where art belong to us all and to the understanding that this whole world is a collaborative creation. So when we put our minds together we create things and we discover things that we could not do on our own. I have my own little games I use when I write. If I get stuck in a chapter on something, I have little tricks up my sleeve you know that I can pull out and use to get going.
I could decide that for the next three sentences I would have to use words that begin with a p or something, because that sets the brain in motion and all of a sudden I'm writing things that I didn't know I was going to write. So when I was approached by Katie Paterson for the Future Library, I immediately experienced it as an invitation to play a game because it's a collaboration and it has a rules. It has even set space where that takes place in reality, you can say, in the conceivable reality which is the forest that has been planted in Norway.
For me a forest is always connected with fairy tales and folk stories. Kids go into the forest and strange things happen. Young men and women go into the forest and strange things happen. Old people live in the forest doing their strange things. A forest in itself is a mystery for me. So to be a part of a project involving a forest is for me like being a part of an adventure or a fairy tale or a folk story.

JD: That was Icelandic poet, author, and lyricist Sjon speaking to the Future Library. The Future Library plans to issue its anthology in the year 2114.

[Music]

Apple pizza box

JD: Apple is known for revolutionary products, the iPhone, the iPad. There are rumors that Apple is creating a driverless car.
Now they're disrupting pizza with the state-of-the-art pizza box.
The design was the brainchild of Apple's food guru Francesco Longoni who helped Apple patent the design.
Scott Wiener holds the Guinness world record for the world's largest pizza box collection. He's wants to get a hold of Apple's Pizza Box.We reached Mr. Weiner in New York.

CO: Scott what is so special about Apple's pizza box?

SCOTT WEINER: You know it's funny, I've been wondering the same thing myself. I saw the patents for it and I got to tell you, I don't think there's too much about it that really is that special.

CO: So what is it that people are saying is revolutionary about it?

SW: Well what people are excited about is the fact that Apple has created their own pizza box and it's patented and it's really right now just in use on their own campuses. Just the fact that it is their own, it's exciting. It's like if Ferrari made a pizza box, people would be excited about it. They would wonder if pizza would be delivered faster. Just because Apple has made one, they're wondering oh is that smarter? Is the pizza going to be smarter in some way? And while I do think it is, it's a neat design, it's not the first round pizza container I've seen. It's not the first or most breathable pizza container I've seen. And it's potentially one of the least attractive pizza containers I’ve seen.

CO: All right. So you say round and it's breathable. Tell us about what the Apple’s pizza box looks like.

SW: Yes so Apple’s pizza boxes a clam shell. So it's circular and it has one the hinge. And the hinge on it is pretty small. On the opposite end, 180 degrees from the hinge, is a clasp. So the box can lock shut. And the roundness of it is interesting, but Brazil has used a pizza boxes that are round for at least the past 10 or 15 years. And actually they're phasing out of this round pizza containers because they've found what Apple might find, which that if you stretch a pizza slightly too large. It will not fit in a round container but it will fit in a square container.

CO: And what's the breathable part for?

SW: Well every pizza box has the potential for ventilation. This box has a series of circular vents located probably about a third of the way into the box from the outside circumference. And the idea is that when moisture builds up in a pizza container, you need ventilation. Otherwise the crust will get soggy and moisture will build up in the box and it will break down some of the cardboard. You actually get a cardboard taste in the pizza. So with this container, the hole ventilation is closer to the center piece of hoping that you'll be able to get rid of moisture from tomato and cheese.

CO: We've all had soggy cardboard-tasting pizza. So do you think it works?

SW: You know I haven't seen this box in person so I can't really say if it works or not but I have seen other boxes in containers for pizza that have ventilation like this and it works until you stack a second pizza on top of the first pizza, thus blocking the ventilation. So as a single serving container, this might be OK, if it is one employee taking the pizza back to their cube station or whatever it might be, pod, that might be OK.

CO: Now why would Apple go to the trouble to create its own pizza box and then get a patent on it?

SW: Well I can't speak for Apple but I have to assume that they're just making a lot of pizzas. And if you're making that many pizzas, maybe there became an opportunity for designing their own model. You know, even though they've designed this years ago, I think the patent was registered in 2010 and it was, I think it came through in 2012, 2013 something like that. So they’ve had the box for a few years. But once they released all the information about their new campus, this is the thing that's gotten the most news. So it’s probably worth it just for the press.

CO: But who gets these? Who is buying pizza from Apple? And just describe where the customers are for these pizzas?

SW: So nobody's actually buying pizza from Apple. This is for their on campus cafeteria. So they have multiple food options. One of them is a wood fired pizza cart, or a gas fired pizza car depending on if they’re running it and down. You know you might as an employee, you might go up to it, say “I want to have pizza. It's Friday. Friday is going to be my pizza day.” And then you get a pizza. You take it in this little contraption; take it back to your desk or wherever you're going to eat it. And then there you go.
So I think the idea is rather than buy some generic pizza packaging, they do their own, they have their own spin on it and they increase their branding on their employees.

CO: All right. Now we have to come to the reason why I'm speaking with you and it's not just because you know about it but because you are a collector of pizza boxes, right?

SW: That is accurate. I have the Guinness World Record for the largest pizza box collection on the planet Earth.

CO: Why do you collect pizza boxes?

SW: Well I am obsessed with pizza in general and have been for many years, and so obsessed that I started a company where I take people on tours of famous pizzerias in New York City. And as an outgrowth of that obsession with all things pizza, I realized that the pizza box was this incredible piece of ephemera that's attached to this food that I'm obsessed with. But it's the element that often gets thrown in the garbage, which is why it's so interesting to me because you hold on to these things for a few years and then suddenly the imagery and the design on them it all becomes dated.

CO: How many do you have?

SW: I’ve got over 1300.

CO: And are these all pizzas you ate?

SW: No these are, I don’t… it's funny. I don't. This is the irony. I cannot stand pizza from a pizza box. The pizza box really destroys the integrity of the crust. It does not let the pizza taste nearly as good as it would have had you just eaten it right off the tray. But I collect these boxes. People send them to me from all over the world. To me, it's like a souvenir, it's like a, it's like a snow globe for somebody else. For me, it’s a pizza box.

CO: Are you hoping that somebody sends you an Apple Pizza Box?

SW: Oh I've gotten about a dozen e-mails from people saying that they would send me the box. So hopefully by this time next month I'll have it.

CO: OK. All right Scott, it’s good to talk to you. Thanks.

SW: Thank you for having me.

CO: Bye.

SW: Bye-bye.

JD: Scott Weiner holds the Guinness World Record for the world's largest pizza box collection. And we were speaking to him about Apple's latest gadget, the Apple Pizza Box. We reached Mr. Weiner in New York.

[Music]

Sound of the Day: Aquarium music

JD: If you're into the underground music scene, you'll wanna take note of the notes you're about to hear, because they may signal a new wave of sound altogether: underwater music.
"AquaSonic" is the latest project from the Danish experimental group, Between Music. The ensemble's five members have spent the last month touring Europe, performing while completely immersed in individual aquarium tanks. Their instrumentation includes vocals, violin, cymbals, bells, a pedal-driven crystallophone -- a kind of xylophone made of glass -- and a hurdy-gurdy.
Here's a bit of what it sounds like, Our Sound of the Day.

[Sound: Aquasonic music]

The Danish experimental group Between Music, this is our Sound of the Day. They've been touring a project called AquaSonic in which they play instruments underwater from inside large aquariums.

Grand Canyon lawsuit

JD: In 2014, scientists integrated extensive geological and thermochronological data to reconstruct the thermal histories of samples from segments from the Grand Canyon. And they concluded that it was created five to six million years ago -- rather than 70 million years, as some other geologists had posited.
After scanning the study -- with its detailed maps and graphs, and its discussion of "paleocanyons" and "speleothems”, I'm convinced. Partly because, as a layperson, I'm a sucker for ten-dollar words. But Andrew Snelling believes I'm a sucker, period. And so is everyone who believes anything on Earth -- and Earth itself -- is older than a few thousand years.
Mr. Snelling is a geologist with a Ph.D. from the University of Sydney. But he's also a Christian who is what's called a "young-Earth creationist". As such, he believes the Grand Canyon was formed as a result of the flood detailed in the Book of Genesis. The Noah's Ark flood. When the flood waters receded, according to Mr. Snelling, the resulting erosion carved out the Canyon.
Andrew Snelling leads rafting tours in the Grand Canyon. He lectures about it. He has published studies about it. He is extremely into it. Which is why he's so upset that he's not being allowed into it for one particular purpose.
Mr. Snelling has filed a lawsuit against the people who are in charge of Grand Canyon National park, and the U.S. Department of the Interior. He requested a permit to collect some rocks there, for analysis. They said no. And he says that's discrimination, because of his Christian beliefs.
Now there are different schools of thought on the young-Earth creationist school of thought. Some believe geologists with such beliefs should be prevented from spreading junk science. Some believe they should be allowed to do whatever research they want, and be subjected to the same scientific reviews as people who believe the Earth is older than a few thousand years.
Like the canyon itself, it's complicated. And where all this research is concerned -- secular and religious -- it seems like nothing's carved in stone. Well, one thing is.

May 22nd, 2017 episode transcript

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