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The Current Transcript for November 24, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE 1: So which ones are we looking at now? So tell me first, what are we looking at right now?

VOICE 2: Space.

VOICE 1: OK, so.

VOICE 2: And that's Mars, that's Saturn, that's Jupiter.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are you tired of sourdough? The latest pandemic obsession is star-gazing. And five-year-old astronomer Julia Vegh is way ahead of you. In 30 minutes, why staring at the night sky is so captivating in the midst of COVID-19. Also this morning, we keep hearing that this pandemic is more of a marathon than a sprint. A long distance runner and sports scientist explains how that thinking could help us get through the next several months. Meanwhile, for the next few weeks at least, the Atlantic bubble has popped.

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VOICE: I've made the tough decision to implement a circuit breaker. This is not an easy decision. But as your premier, as a physician and as a concerned father and citizen, I must do what I promised: protect the best interests of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

MG: In an hour, the premiers of PEI and Newfoundland and Labrador on why the bubble has deflated for now. We begin though in Alberta, where COVID cases are soaring and that premier has been nowhere to be seen. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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ICU doctor in Edmonton says his hospital will be overwhelmed by Christmas if the Alberta government doesn’t change its pandemic approach

Guests: Talana Hargreaves, Darren Markland, Kelly Cryderman

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VOICE: This must be taken seriously. We are putting our faith in the good judgement of Albertans, which is why these measures are voluntary right now. No one wants to have a government tell us how many people we can have in our homes. If we continue to see large private parties that ignore these recommendations, we may have to consider enforcement action.

MG: That's Alberta Premier Jason Kenney speaking on the 12th of November, announcing restrictions on some indoor fitness and performance activities and shorter hours for bars. It's the last time that Albertans heard directly from their premier. He's been in isolation after exposure to COVID-19, but a lot has happened since we last spoke to Albertans. And the premier is set to finally emerge for a press conference announcing new restrictions today. The province now has more active COVID-19 cases than any other province or territory in Canada, with 1549 new cases recorded yesterday alone. Jason Kenney has reportedly tested negative for COVID-19. Talana Hargreaves and her family were not so lucky. Her youngest child was infected with COVID at school in Edmonton. Now, her other two children and Talana herself have also tested positive and last night her husband tested positive as well. Talana, hello.

TALANA HARGREAVES: Good morning, how are you?

MG: Well I'm OK, but how are you feeling?

TALANA HARGREAVES: I'm doing OK right now. Thank you.

MG: You have a house of people who have tested positive for COVID. Is everyone OK?

TALANA HARGREAVES: We are doing OK right now. The children have mostly recovered. They had very mild courses of COVID-19. I still have symptoms. You can maybe hear in my voice a bit. I'm about a week in and still have symptoms. I don't know what to expect in terms of how long they'll last and we did try to protect my husband more because he's immunocompromised and yet he did start showing symptoms a few days ago as well and just got his positive results last night in the middle of the night.

MG: Oh, my goodness.

TALANA HARGREAVES: So, yeah, we're in the thick of it right now.

MG: As this was unfolding, I mean I mentioned that your youngest child was infected at school and then it began to spread, what information were you getting from provincial health authorities?

TALANA HARGREAVES: Well, to be quite honest, we have had no communication from Alberta Health Services at all, aside from a text message for each of us letting know that we have been a confirmed positive case. Even when my daughter was at school and had received the notice that there was a positive case in her class, it was our school principal that contacted us to tell us. We were not notified by Alberta Health Services at all. Since then, we've had no phone calls to follow-up. Our chief medical officer of health just yesterday informed the press that contact tracing has broken down and that they will no longer be contacting individuals who had positive cases 10 or more days ago. So at this point, I'm not even sure if we will end up hearing from contact tracing.

MG: What would have been helpful for you?

TALANA HARGREAVES: Well, I mean, we're sort of going into this blind, I keep myself pretty well informed, so I knew all of the outlines for isolating, getting tested, making sure that we were taking all preventative measures to make sure we don't infect anyone else. But I mean, we really have no information about how we should be looking after ourselves right now. We're just treating symptoms and, you know, trying to rest. I don't know what happens when we're done with this. I've heard just as of yesterday that people will get a text message when their isolation time has finished, but I don't know what to anticipate down the line.

MG: The Premier, Jason Kenney, is set to announce some new restrictions today. These are expected, in the words of the health minister, to be narrow and targeted. What would you like to see, given what you're going through right now? What would you like to see happen in your province?

TALANA HARGREAVES: Well, to be quite honest, I think it's far too late for smart, narrow, targeted measures. The time for that was weeks ago. In all of the pressors this week, Dr. Hinshaw has said that through the whole pandemic, Alberta has relied heavily on their own data and making decisions for Alberta based on Alberta's data. However, she said that because contact tracing has broken down, Alberta no longer has good data and that they are having to look at the other provinces in order to make their decisions. So I'm not sure how they can make smart, targeted decisions without current data. I don't think Kenney has any choice now but to institute some sort of circuit breaker lockdown.

MG: What were you thinking as the province didn't hear from Jason Kenney over the last 11 days and cases kept rising and rising and rising?

TALANA HARGREAVES: To be quite honest, all other premiers who have been in isolation have continued to show up and make themselves available to press and media. He did not. The last time Albertans saw him was, as you said, on the 12th of November. And at that time he appeared in the Alberta presser virtually via either resume call or however he did it. So the opportunity was there for him to continue to do so. Allegedly, he has appeared in fundraisers this week virtually, and yet he has not made himself available to speak to Albertans.

MG: Just before I let you go, what are you looking for in terms of leadership? This is a really difficult moment, not just for your family, but for your province. What are you looking for?

TALANA HARGREAVES: Well, to be honest, if you look at the history of the 1918 influenza pandemic, the governments that were able to make a difference and prevent deaths were those who showed strong leadership and who had strong communication about what they expected from their electorate. And in this case, I don't think Premier Kenney has demonstrated leadership and he definitely has not demonstrated strong communication and messaging. And so they need to come out today when they make their announcements with a very strong message so that all Albertans know exactly what to do.

MG: I wish you the best. You have a lot going on in your house and I hope everybody's OK. Take care of yourselves.

TALANA HARGREAVES: Thank you so much Matt. You as well.

MG: Thank you. Talana Hargreaves is an Edmonton mother of three school aged children. All the kids have contracted COVID-19, as has Talana and then they learnt last night that her husband also has COVID-19. Dr Darren Markland has been on the front lines of this surge as an ICU doctor at the Royal Alexandra Hospital in Edmonton. Doctor, good morning.

DARREN MARKLAND: Good morning.

MG: You and I spoke a week ago when cases were trending up. What's changed in the last week in terms of what you're seeing?

DARREN MARKLAND: Absolutely nothing. Well, I mean, not in a good way. Our numbers are steadily going up. We're seeing younger and sicker admissions to the intensive care unit and I see no changes in policy to help mitigate any of the things that are coming into our hospital.

MG: We just heard from a woman whose entire family now has COVID and she's calling for stronger restrictions, but says in some ways she believes the time has passed for these targeted restrictions. The premier is expected to announce something today. What would you like to see?

DARREN MARKLAND: First of all, I want to say that this is an example of some of our most informed and proactive citizens. This is an example of how good Albertans go about looking after their health, but that isn't everyone. And what we need is more direction. There are people who cannot do these things. And for that reason and there are willing people who would like to do things and help out, but without stronger direct measures from the government, we can't do it. And she is absolutely correct that we have no data to make focused changes anymore. That data is old. We're flying blind. We need and unfortunately, there is no other thing to do than go back to lockdown and it could be a prolonged time to get the numbers down.

MG: What do you make of how the government has has handled this crisis so far?

DARREN MARKLAND: An unmitigated failure? Really? There are there has been expert opinion, actually expert knowledge on this for months now. We knew this was coming. The numbers are the simplest mathematical formula. And yet we have this obsession about this economy that it functions independently without any other factors supporting it.

MG: Jason Luan is the Associate Minister of Mental Health and Addictions for the province of Alberta. He weighed in on the government's approach to all of this a few days ago. Take a listen.

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VOICE: Our criteria is measured against our hospital capacity to handle ICUs and hospitalizations. We're waiting to see where the threshold will be pushed to our limit and then gradually reduce more activities that way.

MG: In case you didn't catch that, Jason Luan said that the government was waiting to see where hospitals would be pushed to their limit before gradually reducing more activities. Afterwards he said that he was, in his words, incorrect in suggesting that anyone is waiting until we're pushed to the limit. But, Doctor, how does that make you feel as a frontline worker to hear that from a government representative? It seems at the very least like a bit of a mixed message, but perhaps more than that.

DARREN MARKLAND: It just tells me that our governments woefully informed about health care works. This is like bailing a boat when the water is coming over the bow. It's too late. We're already sunk. These cases take two weeks to show up in the ICU. Even if we institute measures now, we're still going to see an incredible surge in the next two weeks coming through our hospitals and our resources are thin and our staffing is thinner. This will take a toll on health care workers.

MG: What does that mean in terms of the surge? We talked a bit about this last week, but with 1549 cases recorded yesterday alone, in a couple of weeks time, what do you think you're going to be up against?

DARREN MARKLAND: We have projections and by the end of December, the ICU system that we know will be overwhelmed. We'll have to convert to a more distributed protocolized model, and that's not regular ICU at all.

MG: What does that mean?

DARREN MARKLAND: Well, that means instead of, when when you come into an intensive care unit, you get one to one nurse and you get a doctor with a one to ten patient ratio who figures everything out and tailors your care. When you're overwhelmed and surging, what we'll instead be doing is having non-intensive care physicians look after people and non-intensive care trained nurses. And then I will go around and make sure that things are being done correctly. But ICU is all about the details. Things change rapidly and people who aren't as familiar with these things won't be able to deliver the same level of care.

MG: You said that, just finally, this is going to put a heavier toll and a burden on people like yourself. I mean I can hear it in your voice. I know it's early in the morning and you've been working hard, but I can hear the strain. How are you and your colleagues holding up?

DARREN MARKLAND: Well, we feel a little like we're held hostage. Everybody does this because they love it. My unit is a special place. We've built trust and a culture of care, and we're willing to take a lot out of the bank knowing that it's for a good cause. But we don't feel like we're being listened to and our pleas are going unanswered. And so when we're done with this, we will we will finish doing the work. But I'm sure I'm going to lose a lot of my colleagues to other careers once this is over.

MG: Take care of yourself and I really appreciate speaking with you again, Doctor. Thank you.

DARREN MARKLAND: It's a pleasure. Bye bye.

MG: Dr. Darren Markland, an ICU doctor and nephrologist at Royal Alexandra Hospital in Edmonton. Kelly Cryderman covers Alberta for the Globe and Mail and she joins us now. Kelly, good morning to you.

KELLY CRYDERMAN: Good morning.

MG: Today, the premier, Jason Kenney, will make his first public announcement in 12 days. In the time since he was last heard from Alberta has repeatedly, as we were saying, set new records for COVID cases and deaths, including 20 deaths in a single day. Where has Jason Kenny been?

KELLY CRYDERMAN: Well, he has been in isolation for the second time. He was exposed about the time he made the previous announcement on some restrictions coming to the province and he has been in isolation since and I understand his isolation period ended on Monday. But that being said, we know he has been in contact with people and certainly the concern about where the public face of the government and criticism that there hasn't been more action by the government, those cries are becoming quite loud this week.

MG: He could do briefings from isolation. He did that before. Why is he not saying anything?

KELLY CRYDERMAN: You know, that's a really good question. Everybody is wondering that and, you know, I think there is a sense of disbelief right now that the situation is where it is, you know, and a realization, if anybody's paying attention that the situation is where it is without the premier being front and centre. And I think it's been especially confounding because we do have a chief medical officer of health, Dr. Deena Hinshaw, who has been appearing at briefings and, you know, she sometimes appears to speak in a language that is different than the government. For instance, on Monday, she spoke about, you know, a snowball rolling down the hill, picking up speed and in describing the COVID situation here and her messaging at times and it at times during this entire pandemic has seemed different than the government's messaging on the situation.

MG: Tell me more about that. Jason Kenney has talked about personal responsibility as a strategy. Who is he appealing to in that approach?

KELLY CRYDERMAN: I think, you know, certainly he is speaking to his first of all, it comes from the place of his own beliefs, his own political beliefs and what he was elected on, frankly. And I think he is also speaking to his Conservative supporters who, you know, there is in every province a group of people who are a vein in politics where you don't like and in Alberta, maybe this is stronger, that there is a vein against government intrusion. I think he is speaking to that and has spoken to that and certainly that is what he has run on. At the same time, we are getting these mixed messages. Dr. Deena Hinshaw wrote a letter to residents in long-term care that basically advised them recently that they shouldn't be having visitors right now, even though there are rules in place that still allow a number of visitors to come into long-term care. I think the confusion in messaging is adding to the problem in many instances.

MG: Rachel Notley, the leader of the NDP opposition, was on As It Happens last night. Take a listen to what she said.

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VOICE: At a time when we've seen, you know, 73 new deaths, where we've seen just in the last few days 5000 new cases in Alberta, we're now leading the country, the premier can somehow show up to UCP fundraisers, but he can't stand up or video conference into presentations by our CMO. So whether or not I believe that he's going to take action, it's hard to say.

MG: A bit of politics in there, certainly, but is there a feeling in the province that the senior leadership in the province has, I mean, it's a little bit of what we heard from Talana there, has abdicated a responsibility to lead through a major public health crisis.

KELLY CRYDERMAN: I think there is a sense of disbelief that something didn't happen, earlier than Tuesday, this week, than today than we're talking about it. I think given the number of cases that we're seeing, you know, in the last two weeks, people expected the government to step forward and do something even more quickly than they had said they would do. I think the struggles you have seen in Ontario with Doug Ford deciding to implement restrictions, even in the face of rising cases, have been subject to debate between health care, professionals and asmall business organizations. And you see that tension in Alberta, but I think it's doubled. And I think the problem in Alberta, you had a government that ran on a platform of focusing on the economy, so and that was such a strong platform. You had a weakened economic position even before the pandemic and you have a government that has really tried to focus on the platform that they laid out even during this pandemic. And it has culminated in a situation where you have a premier, you know, now having to deal with a situation that is it seems completely unacceptable that the government is acting like this is almost unexpected. And when you go back to the first wave and Jason Kenney's really ambitious plan for an economic relaunch for the province, where he talked about strong contact tracing and strong testing as a way to open the economy and you feel like those, a lot of people feel like those are the things that have fallen down in the second wave. We know that the contact tracing system has fallen apart at this point basically. We know we're not getting information on testing and that was a point of pride in Alberta before.

MG: And you also have, we heard it from the doctor, you have hostilities between the government and people in the health care field.

KELLY CRYDERMAN: Indeed. And that was again, a course set before the pandemic that has continued in the pandemic. And I think, again, there is some disbelief that there's not more of a pivot given the circumstances.

MG: We'll see what the premier says later today. In the meantime, Kelly, thank you for speaking with us this morning.

KELLY CRYDERMAN: Thank you.

MG: Kelly Cryderman covers Alberta for the Globe and Mail. We did request interviews with both Premier Jason Kenney and the health minister for the province of Alberta, Tyler Shandro. Both were unavailable to speak with us. The CBC News is next and then.

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MG: This pandemic has us all talking in small terms. You tighten your circles, you close your doors, you isolate, you lock down, you quarantine. For some people, this has been an opportunity to look up and think big. Really, really big. In a moment, the big boom in stargazing. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We're back in six minutes. Stay with us.

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How astronomy has provided stress relief and a sense of community during pandemic

Guests: Rachel Levy-McLaghlin

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, hitting pause on the Atlantic bubble with two provinces going forward on their own. But first, let's go stargazing.

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VOICE 1: OK, Julia, so can you tell me what it is that we're doing right now?

VOICE 2: Being astronomers?

VOICE 1: Yes, we are. So.

VOICE 2: Let's study the planets.

MG: Julia is an astronomer. She's also five-years-old and she is parked in front of her computer with her dad, Lou Vegh. And like she says, they're studying the planets.

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VOICE 1: So which ones are we looking at now? So tell me first, what are we looking at right now?

VOICE 2: Space.

VOICE 1: So.

VOICE 2: And that's Mars, that's Saturn, that's Jupiter.

VOICE 1: Yes. So how do you know all of these even before I pointed to them? Was it because we look at this all the time?

VOICE 2: No, it's because this one looks a bit red and this is smaller than that one.

VOICE 1: OK, you're right. So which one is highest up in the sky?

VOICE 2: Mars.

MG: She knows her stuff. The Current's Rachel Levy-McLaghlin is here with me. Rachel, good morning.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Good morning.

MG: Why, it was lovely, by the way, but why are we listening to this astronomy lesson?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: So, Julia and her dad, are just two of the many people across Canada who are taking up astronomy during the pandemic. So much so, equipment is hard to get and classes are really popular.

MG: So what exactly are Julia and her dad doing?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: They have astronomy lessons every night. He's a science enthusiast himself. They sit together at the computer looking at websites or YouTube, and they'll go outside to see whatever they can in the night sky.

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VOICE 1: So look at what this shape is. It's like this, this, this, this, this, this. So what do we remember that is?

VOICE 2: The Big Dipper.

VOICE 1: Yes. Some of the stars in the Big Dipper are part of a bigger constellation called Ursa Major. Do you know what Ursa Major is?

VOICE 2: No.

VOICE 1: Yeah, the big bear.

VOICE 2: Oh, yeah. I remember that story.

VOICE 1: Oh, you remember that one now?

VOICE 2: Yes.

VOICE 1: That's good.

VOICE 2: Daddy.

VOICE 1: Yes?

VOICE 2: Just wait a second. Mommy, you've got to see this. Daddy and I are being astronomers.

VOICE 3: Oh you are?

VOICE 2: Yes, we're searching up everything. Look, that's part of the Big Dipper, and this whole thing is the Big Bear.

MG: Oh, my gosh. She's fantastic.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: I know. I just love her passion for astronomy.

MG: And this is all new for her? This is a new hobby that she's just picked up?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Yeah. So Julia picked up astronomy only a few months ago. Back in the spring when Julia was off for March break, she, her dad and her mom went to visit Lou's mother in Tillsonburg, which is in Western Ontario. That's when things went really sideways with COVID and they ended up being there for about five and a half months.

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VOICE: Naturally, we were on the hunt for new and interesting things to occupy Julia with. So I put astronomy out there to her just to see what would happen, not really expecting much, and she seemed very interested in it. She wanted to keep going when I was ready to stop, and it was just something very intuitive to her.

MG: And it sounds like she's hooked.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Yeah, she's even doing illustrations. We have a picture she drew of the solar system that we'll put on the website. She did it without books or a computer, and she drew the planets in the right order and she labelled them and even coloured them right. So Mars is a bit more red. Earth is blue and green. Neptune is blue. All of this makes her dad pretty proud.

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VOICE: It's just gives you a warm feeling when your child has the same kind of, some of the same interests without being prompted. I'm older than the typical parent of a five-year-old. So a lot of the sort of cartoons and games and stuff that are directed at children now I'm out of touch with. So basically all the time she's teaching me about all the latest characters or whatnot. So this is a situation where I get to kind of teach. It goes the opposite way. I get to teach her about all the characters in the solar system and whatnot.

MG: So Lou and Julia are learning at the computer or are they out in Thornhill kind of seeing what they can see there? Do they have telescopes? Do they have binoculars, all sorts of stuff like that?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: At the moment, they're using their eyes and sticking to the online tools. But even if they wanted to get some gear, it's actually really hard to come by these days.

MG: Telescopes are some sort of hot new commodity now?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Oh, yeah. They're the new bread yeast.

Oh.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: So telescopes are selling out. Store owners have been flooded with calls. They're getting emails and orders for astronomy gear. Take Ray Khan, for example. He owns Khan's Scope Centre in Toronto. He actually closed his store when the first lockdowns hit back in the spring. He had assumed that they wouldn't be busy, but he's actually been pretty overwhelmed.

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VOICE: We've been getting probably twice as many orders in the day that we would normally get. And that was just online. The phone was ringing off the hook. Emails were coming in. We really couldn't keep up with it. It was very frustrating and very time consuming and demanding. There were only so many hours in the day.

MG: Has Ray ever seen anything quite like this?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Not since Halley's Comet, which was in 1986, and that was when he first opened his store.

MG: And he was saying the phone's been ringing off the hook. I mean, it sounds like it's difficult for him to keep up.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Yeah, it's not easy. He said he won't always have the gear people are looking for. And because COVID has disrupted manufacturers, he says it can take a really long time to get new inventory, and that's if he's able to get it at all.

MG: So it's hard for Ray to get the equipment that people want, but is there beyond that, any evidence that we're seeing a real growth in astronomy in the midst of this pandemic?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: The Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, known as RASC, is seeing a boost in interest in their events. They have chapters across the country and they host events like star parties and lectures.

MG: You'll have to fill me in. What is a star party?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: So in normal times, people would get together in person for a night of star gazing. So it's an overnight event where they see what they can in the sky. Obviously, that's not an option this year, so they've been doing star parties online instead. So they get together over Zoom and the organizers or astronomers will link their telescope to the computer so people can see what they're looking at in the sky.

MG: This is the the Zoom shift of 2020.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Exactly. We're all very familiar with it at this point. And normally they get about 30 or 40 people for their in-person events, but their Zoom events have been far more popular. Now it's more like one hundred people and they have stargazers coming from all over the place.

MG: All over the place. So where are they reaching people from for these parties?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: So people are coming in to Ottawa's chapter from Iqaluit. There's even an American who's joined. So that's Lisa Ann Fanning. She lives in central New Jersey and she's become pretty involved with the Halifax chapter.

MG: How exactly did that happen?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: She had been dabbling in astronomy for about a year, but once COVID hit, she had this drive to get more serious about it.

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VOICE: You know, here we are, we're all in lockdown looking for things to do. And the situation was not good here in New Jersey. We live about an hour outside of New York City. And, you know, we were looking for more things to do, more ways to stay actively engaged. And I decided to look into whether or not there were any programs that I could put some formal learning in place around astronomy, because I found myself, you know, standing outside at night because the neighbours weren't around. Nobody was walking around the cul de sac. You know, I found myself just looking up into the sky and wanting to know more about what was around me.

MG: I'm still a bit confused here. How does wandering around in suburban New Jersey lead her to a group in Halifax?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Lisa had bought a couple of books by this Canadian astronomer named John Reid, 50 Things To See on the Moon, things like that. You heard her say she wanted some more formal learning. So she reached out to John Reid on Instagram and asked about courses. He said he was doing talks with RASC and was actually about to start a course for amateur astronomers. So she joined.

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VOICE: So I was able to find a lot of these deep sky objects and double stars and things that I never thought that I would see on my own, which really helped me put some structure to learning and really ignited a fire in me as far as a new passion.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: She found craters on the moon. She found lunar mare, which are those dark areas on the moon, constellations, nebulae, all kinds of things in this course.

MG: There's a lot to see up there, apparently.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Oh yeah. Especially in 2020. 2020 overall been pretty terrible, but for astronomy it's been pretty good.

MG: Oh why is that?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: There have been lots of interesting astronomical events this year. There was the NEOWISE Comet in the summer that got a lot of attention. There was the opposition of Mars last month.

MG: What is the opposition of Mars?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: So that's when the Earth is right in between Mars and the Sun, so the three of us make a straight line. This is the closest Mars gets to Earth, which makes it a great time to see the planet. Plus the sun is shining directly on it, so it's really bright. And actually, November has been a good month to see all the planets. They've all been visible at different times in the sky.

MG: So beyond these cool astronomical events, what is it that is bringing people to astronomy, do you think, in the midst of a pandemic?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Yeah, I think there are a couple of facets here. One is the science, learning about the sky and about the universe, but there's this other side to it that's a bit more philosophical and spiritual. Listen to how Hilding Nielsen explains it.

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VOICE: People are much more interested right now because it's something we can rely on. We know about the skies. Everything else around us has changed in the last year, but, you know, the sky is the same.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: He's a professor of astronomy and astrophysics at the University of Toronto. He's from Newfoundland and is Mi'kmaq. So he brings together Western astronomy and Indigenous knowledge in his work.

MG: What sort of knowledge are we talking about?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Some of that knowledge is the stories in the stars. So these are the legends of Indigenous peoples about the constellations. He says there's a lot we can learn from them. And let's take a moment Matt, I want to hear one of these stories.

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VOICE: Neon is a bear in Mi'kmaq. If you look in the sky around a couple hours before dawn, every night, you'll see in the west we consider this, the Big Dipper, but the four stars of the bull as a bear and the first three stars are the first three bird hunters. And if you continue along the line, you'll see the other four. In the spring, the bow is sort of pointing down. At that point, the bear is waking up from hibernation and is spotted by the birds. First spotted by the robin who grabs his bow and arrow to chase the bear because bears important sustenance for the Indigenous peoples. Following robin is chickadee who carries a bow and so on with other bird hunters. As they chase the bear throughout the spring and into the summer, when the bear is running flat across the land. But eventually the bear gets tired and gets angry and stands on his hind legs in the fall to face the hunters, the robin shoots the bear, striking it in his heart and killing the bear instantly. Blood splatters all over robin. Robin flies into the trees and shakes off as much blood, turning the leaves red, but leaving one stain on his chest. The other birds catch up. They start preparing the bear for a feast. It's community celebration, everybody coming together to celebrate the hunt, to share, to help each other out. And in the fall, the bear's lying on his back. This is the spirit bear at this point, and it's waiting for the spring to start all over again. And in the story we learn, you know, about the motion of the stars throughout the year. We learn about nature and we learn about community and sharing.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: So that story plays out over a full year as you watch the constellations move around the sky.

MG: And as he said, I mean, it's a story that has lessons that people can learn as well.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Exactly. And for him personally, that story is a connection to his land and where he's from, but he says it also teaches us that we succeed as a group and will do better if we work together.

MG: Which is something that we hear a lot about. You see the signs around that say we're all in this together. We keep saying that over and over and over again. What about everyone else you spoke with? What are they finding through watching the stars over the course of this year?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: I think everyone is getting something slightly different out of this. Lisa Ann Fanning, she's the one in New Jersey who joined the Halifax group, for her, it's brought a sense of community.

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VOICE: You know, there's just this familiar group of people that get together through these various programs and are there because we all love the same thing. We're all passionate about the same thing, and we're all looking to share the same thing. I think that's what a lot of people are missing right now during the pandemic and astronomy was able to fill that void for me.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: I think that's true for Julia and her dad as well, but in a slightly different way.

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VOICE 1: I love doing astronomy.

VOICE 2: Why is that?

VOICE 1: Because I want to study planets.

VOICE 2: Why do you like the planets so much?

VOICE 1: I don't know.

VOICE 2: You don't know?

VOICE 1: No.

VOICE 2: Well, I'm glad you like it, even if you're not sure exactly why. What has astronomy done for us as a family? I would say it's given us something wholesome and science based that all three of us are interested in, that we can talk about and actually learn together. All three of us are learning and all three of us are getting closer by our interest in astronomy.

MG: As a parent, that's been the best thing that you could have, is this thing that's going to bring you all together, especially in a really difficult time.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Yeah, and I think that was the case for a lot of people. But there are also some deeper questions in this about who we are, why we're here, what our role is. Here's Ray Khan, the owner of the telescope store.

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VOICE: When you look out at the night sky and you look at something as simple as the moon and you look at a crater on it, you start to see a bigger picture of everything. You can start to realize that there's a much bigger picture out there. And sometimes for me personally, what it does is it allows me to put problems in perspective in the sense that everything is so much bigger and vaster out there that when you zoom in on whatever issue or problem you have in the, you know this big issue that we have with COVID-19, if you can look at it at a different light and in the sense of how can I deal with the situation that I have and make the best out of it, I think, if anything, the mental framing of positivity, despite the pandemic situation, has really what has made a difference for me and for many other people I've spoken to. The fact of the matter we're affected by what we see up in the sky. There's a fascination and wonder. And we really originate from, if you think about it, from the concept of the Big Bang, we all originate from that original stardust. So each one of us has a little bit of that stardust within us, I'd like to think.

MG: That idea that we're all stardust, that's a big idea.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: I know. I love it. And that theme of connection, you know, what binds us all together is something I heard from Hilding Nielson too.

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VOICE: There's so much I love about astronomy. It's the questions. It's the mystery. It's the fact that whenever we see some phenomenon in the night sky that we have to apply science from mathematics to computational sciences to chemistry, biology. We have to sort of understand a little bit of everything and try to probe the extremes of them. Also, I love how astronomy sort of connects us all. It's kind of funny, you know, so many people come from different places, but we all have the same night sky. And so we all have something in common.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: So, Matt, have I convinced you to take up astronomy yet?

MG: So I spend some time watching the stars because I grew up in the middle of nowhere and there's dark skies around there, but I don't have a telescope. And so I'm just looking, you know, with my amateur eyes, without the equipment. Do I need to get a telescope?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: So it's actually OK without a telescope. You don't really need one to get started. Sure, telescopes and binoculars will help you see more and they'll let you see more detail, but really, all you need is a clear night.

MG: And in that clear night, what should I be looking for?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: So December 21st, mark your calendar. There's this really interesting event happening called the Great Conjunction.

MG: The Great Conjunction sounds very important.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: It is. So it's when Saturn and Jupiter are really close together in the sky. Every 20 years or so, Jupiter seems to pass Saturn, and when it does, they're very close together. But this year it's particularly rare. The planets will be the closest they've been since 1623. Just for a frame of reference, that's just 15 years after Galileo invented the telescope.

MG: That's a long time ago. What does the Great Conjunction look like?

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: I'm told it'll look like a double star in the sky. So two stars really close together. I saw a picture of what it looks like through a telescope, and it's pretty cool. You can see Jupiter's moons and Saturn's rings. It's quite amazing.

MG: I will add it to my calendar and I will cross my fingers for clear skies. Rachel, thank you.

RACHEL LEVY-MCLAGHLIN: Thanks, Matt.

MG: Rachel Levy-McLaghlin is a producer on The Current.

[Song: "Swimming in Stars" by The Wayfarers]

MG: That's Wayfarers and a tune called "Swimming in Stars."

Listeners write-in about Odeuropa

Guests: Karin Marley

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. Last week on this program, we asked you to take a minute, stop and smell the roses. We spoke with historian William Tullett about Odeuropa, which is a fascinating project to recreate the smells of 18th century Europe and bring them to 21st century noses.

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VOICE: If you were in an 18th century coffeehouse then you would be smelling the smells of tobacco, of coffee, probably of sweaty male bodies as well, you know, whereas if you were on the streets of 18th century Birmingham, you'd probably be smelling coal and wood burning and the smells of of metals and industry.

MG: All right. So we were nosey and we asked you what smells reminded you of Canada? Got quite the response. Senior producer, Karin Marley is here to take a look at some of your mail. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning.

MG: What did our listeners have to say?

KARIN MARLEY: So let's start with Lewis A. Bursey. Like a lot of people, he talked about smells taking him back to childhood. So Lewis Bursey tweeted to us that the smells of fir trees in Newfoundland take him back to his days around the bay in Lower Island Cove. He says, "I need to plant some fir trees here just for that fragrance."

MG: Still on that theme, Jane Cardillo in Edmonton says, "A smell stuck in her mind is the smell of the Rideau Canal in Ottawa. It brings back memories of long summer days in my teen years when friends and I would wander the walkway by the canal or sit on the railing. Jane also says that it became a rite of passage to push each other into the Rideau Canal.

KARIN MARLEY: Which is probably not a good idea at this time of year, but maybe some other time. Brian Hernandez writes that for him, the smell of B.C. is the smell of cedar trees. He tweeted that as a young man, he worked as a slash burner, burning off unwanted excess for the tree planters. "The smell of a burning forest is unmistakeable, and I can still smell even a small camp kilometres away," he says.

MG: Penny Stevens has lived on southern Vancouver Island for most of the last 40 years, and she says the smell that binds her to the place is the intoxicating, sweet scent of the cottonwood trees as they leaf out in spring, signalling warmer days ahead.

KARIN MARLEY: Now, here's one that makes my mouth water. Andrea Martin says the smell of poutine always brings me back home to Montreal.

MG: Delicious. Reverend Heather McCance in Winnipeg writes that the smells of camp stove fuel and boiling sap remind her of the years her dad would tap their maple trees. She says, "We were never sure we hadn't spent more on the naphtha than we would have buying the syrup. But it was fun.".

KARIN MARLEY: Yes, it's not really an economical proposition to make your own syrup, but it's fun anyway.

MG: It was fun.

KARIN MARLEY: Micheline Maynard, who now lives in the U.S., says she misses Canada and the wind outside Union Station in Toronto. She said when she's coming up the ramp to Front Street, she always stops to take a deep breath. Then she knows she's back.

MG: And here, perhaps the most Canadian of observations as we head into winter. Chris Hutton from North Cowichan in British Columbia writes that woodsmoke below zero smells different than woodsmoke above zero. Now, you know. I want to mention another story that we had on the program that you've responded to. On Friday, we spoke with Chris Nikic and his dad, Nick. Chris is the first person with Down Syndrome to complete an Ironman triathlon, finishing the gruelling swim, bike and marathon race in 16 hours, 46 minutes and nine seconds.

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[Interview with Chris Nikic]

KARIN MARLEY: That conversation led to this letter from Kathy Miki of Chilliwack, B.C. She writes, "I get that your feature was focused on his Down Syndrome, but it shone light on the bigger story. The outcome of this accomplishment has immeasurable benefits, strength of body and mind, confidence, courage, plus the ripple effect. It inspires others.

MG: It was an amazing story. And if you missed it, you can find it on our website. Karin, thank you very much.

KARIN MARLEY: Thank you.

MG: We look at everything you send us. Some of those letters end up on the air and we hope that you continue to comment on anything you hear on this program. We want to thank everybody who wrote about yesterday's conversation with Barack Obama. We had an avalanche, like a literal avalanche, of mail in light of that conversation. So thank you everybody for getting in touch. If you missed that interview, you can find it at cbc.ca/thecurrent. Coming up after your regional update, two provinces have jettisoned from the Atlantic bubble. And the premiers of Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland and Labrador will be here in a moment. But first, tips for enduring the endless and exhausting lockdowns from endurance athlete, Alex Hutchinson. I'm Matt Galloway. The Current is back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

Alex Hutchinson on what endurance athletes can teach us about surviving lockdowns

Guests: Alex Hutchinson

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We hear over and over again that this pandemic is a marathon, not a sprint. Sounds like a good metaphor, but probably a little inadequate. After all, a marathon is 42.2 kilometres long. On average, people finish them in about four and a half hours, not eight plus months. And a marathon has a finish line. This pandemic, who knows when it's all going to be over and done with? There are though, lessons that endurance athletes could teach us about getting through another round of lockdown and a long cold winter. Alex Hutchinson is a columnist for the Globe and Mail and the author of Endure: Mind, Body and the Curiously Elastic Limits of Human Performance. Alex, good morning.

ALEX HUTCHINSON: Morning, Matt.

MG: What got you thinking about the similarities between enduring lockdown and long distance running?

ALEX HUTCHINSON: Well, I mean, like everyone else, it was a long, unpleasant thing, and I was thinking about that metaphor of life as a marathon and runners think everything is like a marathon. But what really struck me in the spring when, you know, when the lockdowns were extended sort of two weeks at a time was this is not like any race I've ever run. It's it's the difference is that it's the lack of a finish line that was really making me struggle. And that's what got me thinking.

MG: There is a term that you use in this conversation called teleoanticipation, which I think people may have an idea of what it means, but they may never have had a term to apply it to. What does that actually mean and what role does it play in endurance sport?

ALEX HUTCHINSON: Yeah, it's a term that was coined back in the 1990s and it's a pretty obscure term. But basically telos is an end point and so teleoanticipation is the idea of looking forward towards the finish line. And what this there's a sort of body of research that looks at what happens if you take away finish lines due to, you know, core experimental subjects or move them. And what it turns out is our sense of how close we are to being at our limits really depends on our knowledge of where the finish line is. And if you move the finish line or if you don't think about the finish line, it totally changes your sense of whether you can continue or not.

MG: So anybody who has spent any time running would understand that. If you think that you're only running for five kilometres or half an hour or something like that, you'll think about, you know, getting to the finish. But if you don't have that that finish line in mind, then you'll run differently?

ALEX HUTCHINSON: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think people know this experientially. If you get lost or something, if you think you're running for half an hour and then suddenly you realized oh I went the wrong direction and I have to go another half hour, it totally changes. And if you look at it in the lab, what feels like a totally objective I am running at this effort. This feels like a 6 out of 10. Then you suddenly discover that you have to keep going for that long. It's like, well, this is an 8 out of 10. I thought I was going medium, but it turns out I was going hard. And what you realize is your sense of hard wasn't really a function of, you know, how out of breath you were, how your legs were feeling, it was a function of your sense of how close you were to being able to stop.

MG: So this pandemic that we're in, you know, as you compare it to a race where we don't know what you know, where the finish line is, you compare this to the Quarantine Backyard Ultra that a Canadian coaching company organized in the spring. What was this?

ALEX HUTCHINSON: Yeah, this is, you know, one of the cruellest races I can possibly imagine. The deal is you, once every hour you have to complete a loop that's just over four miles, just over 6K, which works out to meaning you run 100 miles every 24 hours. But it doesn't matter how fast you run it, you just have to do that loop once every hour. And the race ends, when there's only one runner standing. So you have no idea how long, how long you're going to run, depends on who else is in the race. And so you can't fixate on I just have to do this far and then I can stop.

MG: I'm not entirely sure why somebody would do something like this, but there are people who did it, including Mike Wardian, who was the winner of the Backyard Ultra. Who is he?

ALEX HUTCHINSON: He's a guy. I actually trained with him about 20 years ago when I lived in Washington, D.C. And he was always a guy who, you know, a marathon just wasn't enough for him. You know, a good weekend was for him, was running two marathons. And so, as you'd expect, he he's the guy who is the type of guy who ends up running Quarantine Backyard Ultras. I will say, though, what's remarkable about him is if you chat with him, he comes across as a totally normal guy. He's not, you know, you don't think, wow, this guy's got a screw loose. You think normal guy, but he just likes to push himself.

MG: Here's a little bit of what he posted to social media after his victory in the Backyard Ultra. And we should mention, if he sounds a little tired, that's because he'd just been running for 63 hours.

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VOICE: We started with over 2500 people. And at the end it was down to me and one incredible athlete. Reddick, was pushing me beyond anything I think both of us had ever done in the past. It was a real honour and privilege to be a part of something beyond my imagination.

MG: He credits his competitor with pushing him to continue. How important is that sense of camaraderie when it comes to endurance, having somebody there to suffer alongside?

ALEX HUTCHINSON: Yeah, I mean, I think put it this way, I don't know of any situation where anybody in an endurance event has set a world record or a national record or any sort of record without the presence of other people that, you know, whether it's competitors or supporters. Everyone knows that the reason you sign up for a marathon where you're running in front of thousands and with thousands of other people is because I mean, the roads are open. You could run for 2K anywhere you want, but you're never going to push your limits if you're just trying to do it by yourself.

MG: So bring this back to the marathon that we find ourselves in and this idea of teleoanticipation since the pandemic started, we keep hearing these sort of end dates for restrictions, 28 days or two weeks or a circuit breaker lockdown. And then those things often get extended because what was put into place didn't do what it was meant to do. Do those shifting finish lines make it easier or more difficult to cope with what we're in?

ALEX HUTCHINSON: I think on one level, they do make it more difficult because they're dashing our hopes over and over again. But the truth is, I don't think the authorities have any choice, because if they were to announce, hey, guess what? Starting Monday, we're going to have an endless lockdown and we'll tell you when when we're going to lift it. You know, there'd be, you know, pitchforks at the gates. And I think we would find that very difficult to cope with. So it's a sort of unnecessary white lie to say it's a 28 day lockdown. But I think it's incumbent on us, you know, the people to to say, OK, we understand 28 days, we'll hope for the best, but I'm not going to plan my, you know, my wedding reception for the 29th day because let's be real. We just don't know how long it's going to last.

MG: So how do you do that? I mean, what are the mental tricks that you can use, whether you're in a lockdown or whether you're in an endurance sport when it seems impossible to keep going? Because if you're running in the natural thing for your body is to say thank you very much. We're done now and you sit down. You can't really do that if you're in a lockdown. But your brain is kind of, to your point, gaming out how long you're going to be in this situation for. So what is it that we can do in our mind to to reroute that?

ALEX HUTCHINSON: Yeah, I mean, if you talk to the successful people in events like the Quarantine Backyard Ultra and if you look at some of the lab data, one of the things that differentiates people who can really keep going for a long time from the rest of us is they are able to focus a little more on the moment. So you can look at eye tracking studies and what feedback do people rely on when they're racing. Novices tend to focus, fixate on how much longer do I have to go? And they're checking over and over again. What's the distance? When can I stop? Experts tend to focus on the speed rather than the distance they're focussing on how am I doing right now? So it's a it's a it's a staying in the moment. Of course, it's never a perfect dichotomy. Everyone wants to know how far they have to go. But if we can shift a little bit away from, you know, building castles in the sky for just after the next potentially fictitious endpoint and shifting a little more towards how can I make this week good or tolerable or sustainable, I think that's a lesson that is useful in running, but also maybe useful in this pandemic.

MG: Just before I let you go, I mean, this is what you do. A, in addition to being a great runner and somebody who can run long distances, you also write about how we can trick our minds in some ways to push through our limits. Has it been difficult for you in the midst of this, you know, personal COVID marathon?

ALEX HUTCHINSON: Absolutely. And I think that, you know, I was thinking about how well I'm doing and I think the fact that at 10:31 every morning I check the Ontario numbers to see whether they've gone up or down. That's a sign, that's something that's not helpful to me, but I grasp that anyway. And, you know, I think it's often the case that in for me, for example, thinking about how we can cope with these things. I'm writing about these things because I'm desperate to try and get better at implementing them myself. It's hard to do.

MG: Alex is great to talk to you about this. Thank you.

ALEX HUTCHINSON: Thanks so much, Matt.

MG: Alex Hutchinson is a columnist for the Globe and Mail and the author of Endure: Mind, Body and the Curiously Elastic Limits of Human Performance.

N.L., P.E.I. premiers say Atlantic bubble was a beacon of hope, but preventative measures had to be taken

Guests: Andrew Furey, Dennis King

MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. The Atlantic bubble has burst, or at the very least, the bubble is leaking. Yesterday, both Newfoundland and Labrador and Prince Edward Island said that they are out as COVID infections in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia keep rising. Since July, people in the four provinces have been able to move freely across each other's borders without quarantining. And it was working, with cases staying low, but things have changed. Andrew Furey is the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. He's in St. John's Premier, good morning.

ANDREW FUREY: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. You had said yesterday that the Atlantic bubble has been a source of pride. What do you think made it so successful up until now?

ANDREW FUREY: Well, I think the ability of the Atlantic provinces to work together as a region has been paramount in the past in economic opportunities. But employing our partnerships in this public health opportunity to protect the citizens of the Atlantic region was again a source of pride, but also a great source of success for over four months. And I know you said that we were suspending the bubble. We're taking a two week break and re-evaluating and then seeing where the virus is and in other jurisdictions within the bubble. So we're almost a bubble within the bubble, if you allow me to continue with that analogy currently.

MG: What's the difference between suspending it and taking a break?

ANDREW FUREY: Well, a suspension is that, you know, we're going to re-evaluate and in two weeks and see where we are, see where the epidemiology is, and if it seems to be calm down and we'll keep going. We'll re-evaluate and look back to get back into the overall bubble. So the integrity of the Atlantic bubble is still intact, I guess is the only difference.

MG: What stopped working?

ANDREW FUREY: Well, you know, I'm not sure that it's anything stopped working per say. This is the change in the virus that we've seen spread across the United States and now into Canada. This is a quite contagious virus, which is complicated by the fact it has these few days where you can spread it asymptomatically and even some patients can spread it to asymptomatically the entire time, so it only takes one or two patients who are asymptomatic to burst a bubble. And then you can have flare ups and then that can lead to, of course, community spread, which is most concerning to citizens everywhere. And we've seen what's happened in the past when that gets out of control. So we're doing this as a preventative measure for Newfoundland and Labrador in order to enable our contact tracers and our testers to ensure that we're able to contain any virus that seeps into Newfoundland and Labrador.

MG: Was your sense that this was inevitable, that what was being kept out would eventually make its way to your province?

ANDREW FUREY: There's always a feeling of inevitability as we saw the cases rise across Canada in particular. And of course, we're seeing and following with great concern and great empathy and compassion for our brothers and sisters in families and in Ontario and British Columbia and Alberta. And so we felt that the virus was pushing east. And so this is yet another preventative measure to see if we can hold off the virus until the vaccine is more readily available.

MG: What are you most concerned about? I mean, in terms of the cases in your province, there are just 23 active cases, which is something that I think many people across the country could only dream of. What are you most concerned about?

ANDREW FUREY: The community spread and that was most concerning for me in evaluating other jurisdictions. When you have a spread that you can't trace back to an index case, that makes it difficult to contain any any outbreak of COVID-19 or, frankly, any other communicable disease.

MG: We've been speaking with people on the front lines across this country this morning, but over the last several weeks and months obviously, and they're really worried about capacity in their hospitals. What sort of capacity do hospitals in your province have for coping with patients who perhaps might need care in the ICU?

ANDREW FUREY: I mean, I worked on the front lines of COVID-19 before taking this job on one of the COVID floors here in St. Johns. And I'm quite impressed with the capacity that we have here in St. John's. But it's always something that we're evaluating to ensure that we don't push the limits. And this is an, this extra step of putting in an extra border check is a way that we are thinking that we can continue providing a normal medical care without stressing the system and stressing our intensive care unit.

MG: What other perspective, do you think you bring as a physician to this? Because it would be easy, I think, for the average person if they see cases being low and a bubble working to perhaps let their guard down a little bit. So knowing what you know, as you said, having been on the front lines, what sort of additional perspective do you think you bring to this?

ANDREW FUREY: Well, I think I can add an element of rational medical thought to the decision making, but that said, you know, I trust the public health officials here. Dr. Fitzgerald and her team here locally have done an incredible job and we certainly defer to their decision making. But it does bring a different level of understanding, I hope, a different level of respect for the virus and I hope I'm able to to use my previous life to convey the the dynamic nature of this virus and the need to be flexible in our response to Newfoundlanders and Labradorian.

MG: What do you think they're looking for? I mean, again, in a situation where life compared to much of the rest of the country has been able to be lived almost normally, what do you think they're looking for and how receptive would they be to further restrictions if cases continue to rise?

ANDREW FUREY: Well, I think everyone across the country and here in Newfoundland and Labrador is looking for a degree of certainty. Unfortunately, that's not something that anyone can responsibly promise. But the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians have enjoyed an incredible amount of freedom over the last four months in the Atlantic bubble and they just don't want that to stop. They want the schools to be open. They want businesses to be open. They want the economy to continue, albeit in a limited capacity. And so I think they're prepared to continue restricting some of the movements in order to maintain the level of freedoms that we enjoy here now and we know and appreciate that others across the country are not enjoying today.

MG: What are you looking for from federal leadership? What could the prime minister and the federal government be doing as these cases continue to grow in an alarming fashion in many parts of this country?

ANDREW FUREY: I think the federal government has a large responsibility here in ensuring the health and safety of all Canadians and ensuring that they're able to support the different jurisdictions, the provinces, from a fiscal capacity, from a supply capacity, a supply chain capacity, whether that's PPE or or providing a robust, solid vaccine distribution plan. I think that's the role of the federal government in ensuring that all the provinces are well looked after and moving forward with this pandemic.

MG: There have been calls for greater federal intervention. Would you support any of that?

ANDREW FUREY: I'm happy to discuss greater federal interventions with respect to supplies and fiscal support, especially now as the vaccine comes online.

MG: Just finally, you said that you are taking a pause for a two week period. What would the threshold be to extend that even further?

ANDREW FUREY: The decision matrix is not straightforward. Obviously, we're looking at different variables, including raw, absolute numbers in different jurisdictions within the Atlantic region, but also the degree of community spirit, which again, for me is most concerning is that can quickly strapped the system and exhaust the capacity that we have and others have. So those would be the two main variables that we would kind of consider and apply different weights to making this decision.

MG: Premier Furey, good to speak with you this morning. I appreciate your time. Thank you.

ANDREW FUREY: Thanks very much, Matt.

MG: Andrew Furey is the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. He was in St. John's. Despite the decision from Newfoundland and Labrador and PEI to shut their doors yesterday, New Brunswick Premier Blaine Higgs said his province would not be closing its borders yet.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Now is not the time to travel to other areas. We have already made it clear that we are no longer monitoring the provincial borders, and that would be provincial borders between ourselves and Nova Scotia and PEI. We will continue, however, to monitor the borders in northern part of the province between ourselves and Quebec, and we are enhancing our monitoring of the U.S. border. It's important that we understand movements and it's important that the family bubbles are protected and we're allowed to beat this current outbreak.

MG: Dennis King is the premier of Prince Edward Island. He's on the line now from Charlottetown. Premier, good morning to you.

DENNIS KING: Good morning, Matt. Thanks for having me on.

MG: Thanks for joining us. Why is your province out of the bubble?

DENNIS KING: Look, I think Andrew might have summed it up quite well. It's just from our perspective here, we look at the national caseload and how it's growing, we look at that as it has come to the Maritimes and the Atlantic region. As an island province, we have the ability to contain our borders a little bit, probably more easily than than other jurisdictions. So for us, it's about trying to maintain that quality of almost ordinary life that we have here in Prince Edward Island and to use all the tools we have to try to beat back COVID one more time.

MG: What has the bubble meant for people in your province until now?

DENNIS KING: The bubble has been a great economic generator compared to what we would have first thought perhaps back in the spring, but it's also kind of been a beacon of hope as well. I think that, you know, your guest that you had on before Premier Furey talked about this being a marathon, not a sprint, and how we can't see the end in sight. And I think for a four or five month period within the high part of the summer, when people are used to travelling back and forth and having some freedom to move around. But the Atlantic bubble provided some hope and some normalcy at a time when it feels like anything but.

MG: Was everyone on side with the bubble on PEI or were there some people who were opposed to this idea?

DENNIS KING: I would say that anything that pertains to the politics of Prince Edward Island on a day to day basis, that there would be no uniform support one way or the other. I think the large majority of people, even though they might have been a little apprehensive at first, really thought the bubble was a was a unique and creative way to get some movement off of people around the region at a time when our region was incredibly safe as compared to the rest of the country or the world. So but there's always detractors, of course. And I do think if I flip the switch to yesterday, that even though people have enjoyed the bubble, I think the overwhelming response so far has been, I'm glad that we have done this. I hope we don't have to do it for very long. But I'm glad we're trying to do this now as a as a proactive measure as opposed to trying to react in a couple of weeks time if things were to go bad.

MG: Last week, I spoke with the health minister in Nunavut and spoke to him about concerns around blame. They had kept COVID out of that territory. It crept in and now it's ripping through parts of Nunavut. He was really worried that people would blame others for bringing it into that territory. Are you worried about finger pointing, having been so successful with the bubble up until this point?

DENNIS KING: Pardon me, yeah. I, look, the 69 cases that we've had here in Prince Edward Island have been imported into the region, largely due to rotational workers, etc. So I don't think anybody is really gets upset with the individual. Nobody brings this willingly to our province, but at the same time, you know, we have to be mindful that we are a small province. So if we say a rotational worker from western Canada came to the eastern part of the province, we can quickly do the maths and do the geology of who that is. So, you know, it's a fine line, but I do think overall that most islanders have been understanding that COVID is here, that we weren't going to not have COVID here and their concern has always been around making sure that we can track the cases and keep islanders safe.

MG: Well and that end, Dr. Joanne Langley is an epidemiologist at Dalhousie University in Halifax and the co-lead on Canada's COVID-19 Task Force. Take a listen to what she said about whether the Atlantic bubble has indeed burst.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: One interpretation of that might be that disease is rampant. I don't think it is. I think we're seeing some breakdown in the very good, slow transmission that we were having mainly prior to this it was mainly imported cases and then you circle around those imported cases and make sure they don't spread. But right now we're seeing a little bit of community transmission, so it'll be very important to get a handle on that.

MG: Premier Andrew Furey said that this was a pause. Are you confident, Premier, that the region will be able to get a handle on the community transmission that's taking place and that the bubble could be stitched back together?

DENNIS KING: Yes, I mean, that is my ultimate hope. I do have great faith in the public health systems in our sister provinces. And they have demonstrated over the course of this over time that they are able to react quickly into to contain the virus. But, you know, but at the same time, you know, I look at it from the perspective, Prince Edward Island and for perhaps Anne of Green Gables, potatoes and seafood, but most of all, being the most friendly and welcoming place probably in the world. So it's difficult for us to have our entry points closed to the rest of Canada or the world. So we want this to be a short term measure. It's in the interest of health and safety of those who live here and those who would visit. But it's really, really difficult for us to be in a situation where we can't be welcoming. And it's a really fine line for us. We just, we want to work with our with our sister provinces to make sure that we contain and beat back COVID one more time. And as we look forward to, you know, a vaccine coming in the first part of the year with great hope, I think we can see the finish line, but it's certainly a difficult decision that we've had to make, but one that I'm glad we're able to make proactively.

MG: Just before I let you go, are you nervously watching what's happening elsewhere in the country? We were talking earlier this morning about what's going on in Alberta, and that's to people in that province incredibly unsettling.

DENNIS KING: Look, I worry every day about COVID, not just from a peahi perspective, but from a national perspective and a worldwide perspective, even though we have to active cases here, maybe we're the envy of the rest of the country in that respect. But at the same time, until COVID is under control everywhere, it's out of control everywhere. And that's kind of the way we've been looking at it. So, yes, I worry greatly. We have a limited capacity here if something were to happen from an outbreak perspective, so we have to try to do everything that we can to keep it outside of our shores and to contain it if it gets here and thus far, we've been able to do that. And I just hope and pray we're able to continue to do that until we can get beyond.

MG: I appreciate your time this morning. Good to talk to you, Premier. Thank you.

DENNIS KING: Matt, it's great to chat to you as well. Stay safe.

MG: And you. Dennis King is the Premier of Prince Edward Island. He spoke with us from Charlottetown. That is your program for today. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. The great visual artist Christi Belcourt speaking with Tom Power on Q. We'll leave you in the spirit of hunkering down, keeping our distance, hoping for better days and a nod to the Atlantic bubble, this song makes me miss seeing live music. I want to be with a crowd of people seeing Joel Plaskett on stage in front of me. Here's Joel, "Nowhere With You." I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: "Nowhere With You" by Joel Plaskett]

Nov. 24, 2020 episode transcript

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