Your smartphone is ruining your sex life, says renowned sex therapist Dr. Ruth

Guests: Dr. Ruth Westheimer

AMT: In the 1980s, Dr. Ruth Westheimer changed how North Americans thought and talked about sex. Starting with a midnight time slot on a New York City radio station, she quickly became the world's most famous sex therapist. She answered questions about sexual problems, big and small and she answered them openly and frankly using words people had rarely heard uttered in public. We're about to hear some of those words right now.

SOUNDCLIP

RUTH WESTHEIMER: I am going to make you say vagina and clitorus because I always hear you talk about penis.

[Laughter]

RUTH WESTHEIMER: Can you say that word again?

VOICE 1: Erection?

RUTH WESTHEIMER: Yes.

VOICE 1: Yes.

RUTH WESTHEIMER: But say it a little bit louder.

VOICE 1: Erection. This is like a cable version of Mr. Rogers or something. You know, it's just like can you say clitorus.

VOICE 2: Dr. Ruth, does size matter on.

RUTH WESTHEIMER: Nope.

VOICE 2: It does not really?

RUTH WESTHEIMER: Size has nothing to do with a sexual satisfaction of a woman.

AMT: Dr. Ruth Westheimer is weeks away from her 91st birthday and she's still giving sex advice. She published three books last year, another one this year. She is the subject of an intimate new documentary that opens this week. It's called Ask Dr. Ruth. And she's with me in our Toronto studio.

RUTH WESTHEIMER: Wait you forgot something.

AMT: What?

RW: Anna Maria, when I did the radio, which you described nicely, once it went to Canada I loved it because I love that international flavour. I did get questions from Canada in French. I could answer them, but I didn't answer them in French because the Americans wouldn't understand. But it made the whole WYNY experience very interesting for me. That was before my son Joel Westheimer, who is very well known here at the University of Ottawa, my daughter-in-law Barbara Leckie was at the University of Carleton, a big shot professor. I have Canadian granddaughter Mikhal who's at the University of Toronto and I have a grandson, one more year high school in Ottawa. So I am delighted to be here.

AMT: Well it's interesting you talk about your son because your son says when he was in university, WYNY New York was running your show and he'd go down the hall of the dorm room and he'd hear his mom.

RW: At Princeton.

AMT: Yeah.

RW: And he said my mother is in every dormitory here on the radio because I kept my professional life because I talked so openly about sex really outside the family. Not that my husband didn't come to WYNY on Sunday nights. He was with the engineer in the studio. They had a great time while I answered those questions.

AMT: Given the fact that you made the point you were really happy that you started broadcasting into Canada too and you got questions. Do Canadians have sexual problems that other people don't?

RW: No, no. I tell you what has changed over the years for Canada and the United States. The people are sexually more knowledgeable. For example nobody says she's with child which they used to say instead of pregnant. So the questions are more direct more explicit. And also there are less women who haven't heard the message that a woman has to take the responsibility for her sexual satisfaction. So some of the questions of premature ejaculation ejaculating faster than he wants to or some of the questions about how to reach orgasm for women. I get less of those. So there certainly is progress. However there are issues these days that we have to be careful about such a minus. One of the issues is that we see a rise in sexually transmitted diseases because there are more people engaging in one night stands on the internet than from other social media including older people. Yes. Exactly. I'm very serious about that including older people because older people think nothing is going to happen to them. Younger people think big deal. There is medication available. So we are going to see a rise in syphilis going on here and that dreadful disease of AIDS. So having said that now we can talk about the fun of sex.

Well you know but it's interesting because that accessibility and that ability to talk about it you really were at the forefront of that it just wasn't and nobody was having those discussions before.

I do agree. But I was very fortunate and yeah I was very well trained I already had my doctorate in the Interdisciplinary Study of the family and I had the what's called in Hebrew could spar which means nerve to really talk openly.

So where did that come from.

Why could you do that when so many people couldn't I tell you I could do that number one because I realized how important it is for family life especially since as you know I was an orphan at the age of 10. So for me family life is sacred and because of my background I have to make a dent in society. I have to make some kind of contribution because over a million Jewish children were killed by the Nazis. And I was saved because I was sent to Switzerland.

Let's talk about your early life because you were 10. The Nazis came to your door looking for your father when you were young.

My father and I went to synagogue I was an only child and I do remember after the night of broken glass. I remember that somebody told my father in the street. We have to leave. Horrible things are going to happen. And I remember my father saying nothing is going to happen tomorrow it's a Christian holiday that morning the Nazis came to the apartment in front of the mine told my father to get dressed to go with them. There was no shouting no violence. I do remember those horrible black boots. My father got dressed went with the Nazis before he left the apartment. My grandmother in those days gone my boys had long skirts to the floor and she had some money in the seam of the skirt. And I remember that she gave the Nazi some money and said Take good care of my son. My father went downstairs. I went to the window. I looked out and I saw him turning. He must have been horrified. But he waved to me and I tell you why I am so moved when I talk about it when I will flee and that other children we under the Lord in front foot. I did the same thing like my father. I was horrified. I was so sad. But my mother and grandmother. They waved goodbye and I smiled.

That was the last time you saw your mother and grandmother. That was the last time you saw your father.

When he was taken by the Nazis to a labour camp. But what I want to tell you Ana Marie my parents actually gave me life twice once when I was born.

Second time when my father from the labour camp hold a postcard I remember that postcard saying you have to go to Switzerland so that I can come back to Frankfurt. So I had no choice. I didn't want to leave. I did wonderful life with with the dollhouses. With all those kids with everything that a little good friends if they hadn't sent me to Switzerland I would not be alive. I sometimes as a child had the fantasy that if I had stayed in Frankfurt that maybe I could have saved my family. Nonsense. If I had stayed I wouldn't be around.

No you would not. And you know you end up you end up in Palestine just before the creation of the state of Israel. Yes. And you become a sniper.

I suddenly ask anybody who doesn't ask me good questions an idea in the field which shows I can still use a stun gun.

You know how to take it apart and put it back together again not what you were doing in the film.

And you know in the film can you see. I was so moved that I said enough. Who knows how many people got killed with that stun gun. I had never had to kill anybody. However I could have and I knew that Jews have to have a country of their own that the Holocaust could not have happened if Jews had Palestine. If they had Israel because they would have had a place to be. Now I talk about sex so I have made it my rule. I do not talk about politics. I don't comment on the Israeli politics and I do not talk about American politics. However these days I do stand up to be counted how upset I am when I see children being taken from their parents because that's my life story and how upset I am about the idea that there is not enough money for Planned Parenthood and that abortion and has to remain legal. So there are these things that I now stand up to be counted but I don't talk about politics the same thing I don't talk about the sex lives of anybody in people magazine.

But I mean people like you are in people magazine rating agents. That's pretty age of almost 91. Beautifully done. So you're like a perpetual motion machine. How do you keep going. Like what's your secret.

I tell you what my secret is meeting people like you because right now you are sitting here with me and there is nothing in the world that is more interesting and more important to you than this conversation. And that makes me like wake up and be alive. I'm also very fortunate. I'm going to be 91 on June 4th. I'm healthy. I'm also very fortunate that I know what to do to stay healthy for example don't call me before 10:00 a.m. because I'm out every night. So I do sleep from midnight deadline and so let me ask you a little bit more about yourself.

When did you first learn about sex.

So before I left on foot before I left Germany I knew that there was a book on my parents bookshelf called the ideal marriage one day. That was very well known in those years. I knew it was kept with a key on a bookshelf. I went why nobody was home. I put a chair on a table. Luckily I didn't fall to get that book and hit illustrations about sexual positions. And like in the film I said oh now I know what they're doing. So then in the children's home that was the time a 10 and a half that I had the first kind of hugging and kissing. Not sex yet experience with a boyfriend. And I learned from his books because I as a girl was not permitted to go to high school in the village.

All of us girls had to become Swiss housemates and money. And I'm not Dr. Ruth anymore. I can come to you and show you my Smith household diploma.

I've got to tell you I don't do windows and then much later you pursued higher education is your first divorce was really was your first divorce where you wanted to. Yes. Going to school and divorce.

I still am good friends. He's in his line and it was only my seem every yet he has a girlfriend thank God. The first divorce was because of it didn't want to study medicine anymore in Paris. He wanted to go back to Islam. And I wanted to study at someone.

And you had three husbands three.

Mm hmm. You say that in a low voice like there's no you have three husbands.

That's right. Your husbands. However the real marriage was Manfred Westheimer. Sometimes it takes me to find the right one.

Well and you continue to write. Worked. What does one of your latest books from you to to you continue to write about relationships. Dr. Ruth rules for relationships. What I wonder what are the top rules for relationships.

So the top authors first of all I'm very Jewish and I want people to be married now. I have changed with the times I now have I can say to two homosexuals. How is your husband now in the halls of my dorm a little easier. I can say to a lesbian. How is your wife. But in general I do want people not to be lonely. For me one of my aim in life is to see everybody in a relationship. I don't care if they do get married or not married. We have to make sure that every person gets respect.

It's interesting because you laugh a lot and there's a lot of fun. And in what you talk about but there's also real compassion beneath everything you're doing.

So in the Talmud an idea in the Jewish tradition it says a art with humour is a lesson obtained. It also says in the Talmud that you learn from your students. That's why I'm still teaching at Teachers College Columbia University. That's my fourth or fifth year.

That's wonderful. So you talked about loneliness. Talk to me a little bit about what you see happening in our society with loneliness at every age.

What I do see is we can't fight the Internet and we can't fight are the phones and the iPhones. But we have to tell people put their iPhone aside make sure that you talk to each other because it has an impact on your relationship. And it certainly has an impact on sex. So people who get obsessed that they have to see what's happening every minute they don't have a free thought to get sexually aroused to make time for sex and to enjoy it and to know that this is part of life and not to push it on the back burner.

You know it's funny I talked to somebody the other day who said they were in their mid 50s and they said I don't have a lot of years left. And I felt very sad about that. You know like I'm talking to a woman who's about to turn 90 anyone and still. So some of it is the way we see our world.

And I don't think that we I just think how fortunate I am here. I invite and that every mom or the producer when they called me when Gaddafi called me about the movie I said no enough already I've done so much television. Then I saw a movie that he did about some Jews that survived World War Two because they were hidden in the villages in Poland fed them for a year and a half. I said whoops since I am on the board of the Museum of Jewish heritage in New York I'm going to work with this man. You know that there are Holocaust deniers people as they never happened. And somebody like me has to say stop it. It did happen. And then there's something that what worries me very much that Holocaust fatigue. People there say enough already. We don't want to hear about it anymore in New York right now. It's an exhibit called I Schlitz not long ago not far away. The exhibit comes from my book it very expensive. But I voted and made other people vote with me persuaded them that we need that exhibit. So if you come to New York I would like you to go with me. And I want people to go twice. Once there will be very upset and then I want them to come back again and learn more of what happened so that it should never happen again.

I look at what you've done with your career and with your life. And I'm wondering what gives you hope.

First of all it gives me hope is to sit with and might be talking about that. What gives me hope is to see young people coming to the museum to learn about history. What gives me hope is I did a book for children called the Holocaust.

They got my roller coaster Grandma. What a great title.

It talks about my father being taken by the Nazis because we have to teach young children that they are bad people. And then I go to an amusement park with two of my four grandchildren. We get measured they can go on the ride.

I'm too short.

AMT: Oh is that right.

RW: Yeah. So that's one thing. The other thing is that I am doing, a book iis coming out as we speak called, Crocodile, You Are Beautiful. That's about diversity. So since I was a kindergarten teacher it makes sense that at the age of 91, I do children's books.

AMT: And I thought we were going to talk mostly about sex.

RW: Not likely, but you can me one question, but you can never say I have a problem. You have to save to say.

AMT: I have to say my friend has a problem?

RW: No, in your case you have to say one of my listeners has a problem.

AMT: Okay well let me ask you this, should we look forward to sex into our 90s?

RW: What a question. Just don't ask me any personal question. You will never know how much money I have and you will never know with who I'm sleeping.

AMT: OK. Well I'm not even going to ask then. OK. Dr. Ruth, thank you for coming in. Thanks for talking to me.

RW: Thank you Anna Maria.

AMT: Dr. Ruth Westheimer is a sex therapist and an author. The new documentary about her life and work is called Ask Dr. Ruth and it opens in Toronto and Vancouver on Friday. Dr. Ruth joined me in our Toronto studio. Let me know what you think. You can tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. And stay with us, the CBC News is next and then between a rock and a hard place, what the growing trade rift between Washington and Beijing means for Canada. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

'We need to build allies': How Canada should navigate the escalating U.S.-China trade war

Guests: Andrew Mayeda, Ron Davidson, Lynette Ong

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, they call soccer the beautiful game, but what could be more gorgeous than the sport of surfing. Riding ocean waves on a surfboard is set to become one of the newest Olympic sports at the Tokyo Games next summer, but not all surfing enthusiasts are stoked. With tryouts for the Canadian team under way, we will wax philosophical about surfing in half an hour. But first, the tariff war.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

VOICE 1: So I just announced it will increase tariffs on China. That we won't back down until China stops cheating our workers and stealing our jobs and that's what's going to happen.

VOICE 2: You are waking up to a trade war. It's on and it's bigger than when you went to sleep.

VOICE 3: I think what China has been doing to our country is what has hurt our economy. $500 billion in trade deficit.

VOICE 4: The tax is not paid by the Chinese exporter. The tax is paid by the U.S. company that imports those goods.

VOICE 5: For many Americans it means a price hike potentially on everything from soap to screwdrivers, sneakers to smartphones.

VOICE 6: There will be no winner in a trade war. This does not serve China's interest, the interests of the United States nor the interests of the world.

AMT: The sounds of an escalating trade war between the United States and China. There had been hopes that talks between the world's two largest economies were poised for a breakthrough, but when negotiators met last Friday in Washington, that did not happen. It probably didn't help that in the lead up to the talks, the U.S. President, Donald Trump announced jacked up tariffs on a range of Chinese products, $200 billion worth. And Friday evening, just after the Chinese delegation left town, the White House threatened to impose more tariffs on another $300 billion worth of Chinese imports that hadn't already been hit. Andrew Mayeda is a global economy reporter for Bloomberg News. He's in our Washington studio. Hi.

ANDREW MAYEDA: Hello.

AMT: First of all, what's your impression about how much progress was made in these talks?

AM: I think very little progress was made last week. I think that the fact that they met and the Chinese came here was a small victory. You know it probably helped to prevent a major sell off in stocks, including U.S. stocks, but I really think that there's been a breakdown in trust between the two sides over the last few weeks. You know the U.S. believes that China has walked back some of the promises that they made during the negotiations. And conversely, I think we're seeing some of the strongest rhetoric we've seen from the Chinese. You know in your introduction it mentioned that the Chinese are saying that they will never surrender. Previously they had been making much warmer, more conciliatory remarks about the talks.

AMT: So how convinced is Donald Trump about the effectiveness of the tariffs?

AM: I think we should take him at his word when he says he's a tariff man. You know we have a big enough sample size of Donald Trump as president to I think we should accept that this is part of his brand. This is part of his modus operandi as president. He is also however a president who seeking re-election in 2020, wants the U.S. economy to do well. He wants U.S. stocks to be rising. So I mean I think the short answer is he wants both. He wants a trade war with China and he wants a strong U.S. economy and there are many who believe that that's not possible.

AMT: And what are his advisers saying about all of this?a

AM: Well I think that there is a rift within the White House between the more hawkish advisers. I think Robert Lighthizer is a China hawk. He's probably a little more subtle in his interpretation of the world than Peter Navarro who wrote the book Death by China. On the other side you have doves like Treasury secretary Steven Mnuchin. He used to be at Goldman Sachs. He has a long history in the financial sector. I think he would want a deal sooner rather than later and also Larry Kudlow who is a longtime personality on CNBC, is also very pro market guy.

AMT: He's been saying, Mr. Kudlow that in fact, that there will be economic pain in the US, but Trump is saying there won't be.

AM: Well there already has been economic pain. You know the fact the matter is the US economy is doing very well. I think we should definitely state that. I mean in the first quarter grew over three percent. The unemployment rate is at the lowest it's been in half a century.

AMT: What is it?

AM: It's about 3.6 percent. But the issue actually is not necessarily that the unemployment rate is low, it's that wages are not growing quickly. And people in the Rust Belt where President Trump did very well during the 2016 election, see that the economy is growing, but their standard of living is not increasing as perhaps it was in past decades. So I think it already has done economic damage. What's interesting is that it has not really filtered at this point through to consumers. Inflation is chugging along at roughly 2 percent a year. So you have not really seen that sharp increase in prices at places like Best Buy or places like the grocery store. That may be coming because the president has threatened a further slew of tariffs on $300 billion in Chinese goods. So at some point people are predicting that there will be an impact on consumer price.

AMT: Essentially with that threat of extra tariffs, the tariffs on the $300 billion worth of goods, that would be almost added to the other tariffs. That would be almost everything China sends into the US, would it not?

AM: That's correct. So we're talking half a trillion dollars, but we are talking about a $21 trillion economy. You know so the economic impact you know will be real and we've already started to see it bite, but again the U.S. economy is doing quite well. If the U.S. economy is doing this well in November 2020 and you know President Trump is facing Joe Biden or whoever he's facing at the polls, it will be very difficult to knock off an incumbent with the U.S. economy doing this strongly.

AMT: And that's the gamble he's taking, right?

AM: That's right.

AMT: You know I've been reading that farmers who sell grain and soybeans are really getting worried, including his own supporters.

a: Yeah there's no question that this has hit the farm sector hard. I mean the bigger picture story with with you know the egg agricultural sector is that there's probably oversupply right now and a lot of these crops. So soybeans are getting hit. Wheat is getting hit you know but just to go back to the political calculus of this I mean are farmers in Nebraska really not going to vote for a Republican candidate in 2020. Right so that is part of the political calculus that you know these these people in my kind of core constituency they can they can suffer a little bit of pain for the broader gain that I think that I'this trade om this. This trade war and I think that that's a calculation he's making right now.

And of course President Trump is juggling a lot of trade talks beyond China. There is the ongoing talks with EU Japan NAFTA deal has yet to be passed in Congress. How does all of that play into what's going on with the U.S. and China.

Yeah that's a good question. I think you know with respect to U.S. N.S.A. and the new NAFTA you know the idea that the president was going to actually pull the plug and kill the current NAFTA that risk had seemed to be fading. I think that I'm not sure how to quantify it but I think that the risk of that happening has increased. You know palpably since he's shown that he's willing to escalate a trade war with the second biggest economy in the world. So if the Democrats in Congress don't pass the new NAFTA you know compared with a couple of weeks ago you've got to think Donald Trump is a little more likely now to pull the plug on the current NAFTA you know will he follow through with tariffs on all car imports. Again you have to think that that it's more likely than it was two weeks ago he just simply believes the tariffs are a good tool of not only negotiating but also economic policy. So if there were car tariffs on all if there were tariffs on all imports of cars into America that would be enormously disruptive some economists actually think more disruptive than the trade war with China.

OK. Well Andrew thanks for your insights. Thank you. Andrew my ADA global economy reporter for Bloomberg News he's in our Washington studio. You are listening to the current review on CBC Radio One. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti Canadian farmers are keeping an eye on the trade and diplomatic tensions between China and the U.S. over the last few months as we know Canadian canola and then pork have become targets for China's retaliation. And because of that U.S. China trade that that U.S. trying to change trade fight Canadian soy farmers have been riding a roller coaster of supply and demand over the past year. Ron Davidson is the executive director of soy Canada. He is in our Ottawa studio. Hi. Good morning I am Maria. I'd let China stop purchasing U.S. soy in retaliation for tariffs last year. How did that affect Canadian soy producers.

Well it wasn't just that they stopped purchasing U.S. soy when the tariff of 25 percent was imposed on U.S. soybeans. Between May and July last year the U.S. price went down by 25 percent. So the Canadian price is based off the U.S. and our price went down too. So we went down we have to compete with the Americans now everywhere else in the world including in Canada where they're selling at very low prices on top of that. The U.S. has already given a dollar 65 a bushel to U.S. producers to try and counteract some of the economic impact on them because soybeans were the most him packed crop in the United States.

Now we have a another aspect of the China U.S. dispute erupted in December which has affected Canada that is the of course the arrest of Hmong Wong show exactly. And what we've noticed is that we were exporting soybeans at a good rate up until the end of December and then it was like was like the door shut. We went from huge amounts to virtually nothing since the end of December.

Well so let me just clarify there huge amounts to China to virtually nothing.

Yes. If we would look at what we exported to China in the last few months of the of the last year we exported normally a couple million. We did a couple million tonnes and then it just stopped. It just stopped went from down to about 7000 tons. So we have taken a substantial reduction in our exports to China but it's not just China. The price is low everywhere now.

Right. So Ron Lloyd let me understand. So China started taking more because of the American situation but taking more at a lower price.

And now you still have low prices and it's taking less well we're not exactly sure what happened for sure because China hasn't said but that's but that's your reality. You're now dwelling less what we do know is the soybeans have virtually stopped. Yes. And that is our major market.

Okay so if you are not selling to China and the United States isn't selling as much to China that's what the say farmers there are saying then and the prices are low like Who's buying this is the problem we've got a glut now.

Well we ended up at the end of March we have two point nine million tonnes in storage. That is a tremendous amount of soybeans for Canada. The Americans think they're going to end the crop year with over 20 million tonnes. So yes there are a very high volumes of soybeans in North America. And we are selling into a market everywhere but China that's depressed by the U.S. prices including Canada.

So what what are you hearing from soy farmers.

Soy farmers are very concerned because we don't know when or how this is going to end. We want to get back to commercial trade which is based on the quality the price and the service. And we are far from that since we started being sideswiped by this U.S. China dispute.

Are you a do. You must have people planting right now.

There's already soybeans in the ground and farmers just don't know what the circumstances are going to be when harvest time comes.

So that when and how. How are they dealing with that economically.

Well at this moment we're doing the seeding. It's when the harvest comes off that the cash flow will be affected and not just the cash flow but actually the amount of cash because certainly prices are depressed and the way the market is evolving now there's no indication that it's going to return to a more reasonable price as long as this trade war goes on.

This doesn't necessarily even affect consumer prices doesn't it doesn't make them lower.

Well soybeans are an ingredient in many packaged products. They you can buy soybean oil. So you know there could be some effect in some of the food service but probably you're not going to see it at the consumer counter the kind of products you see at the consumers counter might be at a mommy for example. But the price depression is not something that you're probably going to see at the retail store. Farmers and soy milk or things like that. Well if the cause if the manufacturers would pass it on you might that be from the manufacturer to the distributor to the retail store. Usually we don't see the full impact of a reduction that farmers take.

Have you seen this kind of an effect on your industry because of a trade dispute before this is the first time that soybeans have been impacted to this extent.

Soybeans there have been a real success story in Canada in recent years. It's not so long ago that they only grew in southwestern Ontario. We're now growing soybeans in nine provinces in Canada it's been a rapidly expanding crop so it's a real success story. And we are now into the international market much more than we ever were before and where Japan on the international market now.

How do you want to see this resolved.

As I said we want to get back as quickly as possible to normal commercial trade where trade patterns are decided by quality price and service and not by political decisions.

And so how much of this is the Canadian government how much of this is Canada.

Just having to react with what Trump is doing well we have a problem in the sense that we have trade agreements including the WTO and bilateral agreements but in spite of those trade agreements the Government isn't able to enforce them like the trade is not these trade agreements are not working as they should be working. That's a challenge.

Well thanks for bringing us up to date. Sorry it sounds so so confusing and so dire but always we're always optimistic in spring. OK well we'll leave it there. Thank you Ron. Thank you. Ron Davidson executive director of soy Canada. He's in our Ottawa studio. So as the U.S. and China square off Canada doesn't is not simply watching this fight from the sidelines following the detention in Vancouver of walkways CFL among long Joe. Canada has increasingly found itself in the middle of things. We have seen Canadians detained in China Canadian commodities blocked by the country for her thoughts on the situation and how much Canada should be looking to the U.S. for help. I'm joined by Lynnette Ong she is a China expert. She's an associate professor of political science at the University of Toronto and the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. And Lynnette Ong is in our Toronto studio with me. Hi welcome back. Hi. So much to talk about. How does what's happening with soy illustrate Canada's position in relation to the U.S. and China.

You know I think in today's world increasingly contentious not in terms of trade but geopolitical situation Canada is really caught in between you know the U.S. released you know our traditional ally and the US and China on the other hand which is a rising power taking an increasing share of our trade in an economy. You know we have the balance in between the two. And up until this point it doesn't look like we are doing a very good job. The government is not is still learning how to balance between the two interests.

And so if this trade war between the U.S. and China escalates further what is the potential fallout for Canada.

I think because of this very globalized supply chain and some of the exports that is going into the United States some of the prices higher prices might be passed on to Canadian consumers. We can imagine that because some of the components me get imported by Canadian producers that way. But you know overall I think it is bad for the global economy and that Canada bought the well for Canadian economy too. So we are lucky to maybe see inflation slower slower growth worse business sentiment worse performing stock market all these things cannot be good for Canada. Is there any way that Canada could benefit in terms of sectoral detail maybe but but I think overall you know trade war is not good for is not good for anyone.

And we just heard from.

I mean the soy farmers you know they were selling more last year they sold more precisely because the other ramifications that we might not see now but it would become clearer let's say six months down the track.

So the prime minister Prime Minister Trudeau called President Trump last Thursday just as the U.S. China talks were getting underway he apparently asked for an end to U.S. steel tariffs on Canada and for help securing the release of the two Canadians detained in China.

Was that a good move I think we we are running out of strategies so I think that is definitely a strategy that we should we should try which is you know China has stopped talking to us now.

And I think Trudeau government is now trying to put pressure on the United States saying that you know we have been. We've been doing deals with you we have been helping you in in or in a lot of ways. But now we have two Canadians in the hands of Beijing because of these arrays or more and draw. And then you should bring them into the equation in your true talk with with China. But it doesn't seem that President Trump cares enough about all about the two Canadians to be doing that.

Plus two other Canadians who have been sentenced to death. Precisely. Yeah. It does Trump have a leverage right now to help China and I hope Canada given his own fight.

Yes I think so because I think my reading is that I think China. China once this tweet war to end it might not give in on everything but his economy is slowing and we know that economic growth is a major source of legitimacy for the government. So Trump does have quite a bit of leverage over China but you will only imagine that he wants to push U.S. interests as far as possible so once he brings in Canada's interests he will have to sacrifice on other things.

Okay. And I'm just getting a note here. China plans to implement 60 billion dollars worth of tariffs against U.S. goods from 5 to 25 percent so China has just announced what do you think of that.

Well if that is a continuation of what China has has been saying that would actually hit Trump's supporters most you know even though they may be very staunch Republican supporters I think China's political calculation is actually smarter then than Trump's is hitting where it's hurts politically where as you know I think in China the media is very carefully curated so you who is seen as a hero for for defending China's interests. So horrible China walks out from these trade war. The government may actually win in terms of popularity.

Does Canada have any leverage within its trading relationship with China right now.

I will you know very very little.

There's really nothing else that you know China couldn't really substitute for. If it wants to you know I think the fact of the matter is that we are a much smaller country visibly China a very inconvenient truth. But I think we need to take that into consideration when we deal with with China having that. So the strategy requires a long term readjustment of all of our thinking and I guess also looking at the Trump strategy as as Andrew was saying out of Washington that that President Trump knows he has he has a certain base that wants to see him get tough on this stuff and that as he supplies his farmers actually are the ones who seem to be directly affected right now. But he's he's giving them subsidies to kind of tide them over.

LO: Right. Yes I think there's a nationalist constituency within the United States that wants to see Trump and the government gets tougher with China because they are losing jobs over China. But a lot of that is really due to technology. It's not necessarily trade and trade often get blamed for a lot of things, but you know what the government should be doing is upgrading people who have lost their jobs, retraining them, so they could take up positions elsewhere and trade and migration often get blamed for things that they are not responsible for. And the net losers are consumers who are really the silent majority who pay full prices, but they don't even know that they are paying for higher prices.

AMT: You know because it's incremental and they don't necessarily can't necessary identify.

LO: Correct.

AMT: Lynette, I have a few more questions for you, if you'll hang with us for we've just got to take a 90 second break. I'm speaking with Lynnette Ong. She is a China expert and associate professor of political science at the University of Toronto and the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. She's with me in our Toronto studio. We're going to get to surfing in the Olympic Games, but first I'll come back with Lynnette for a few more questions on how all of these trade wars are affecting our own country. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music]

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Just before the break I was speaking with Lynnette Ong. She's a China expert and associate professor of political science at the University of Toronto and the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. We are going to talk about surfing and Canada's efforts to enter the Olympic team of surfing as it becomes a first time sport in the Olympics next summer at the games in Japan. But let's talk about Japan's neighbour right now, China. Lynette, there were reports that last week Mr. Trump was upset because Chinese officials appeared to backtrack on some key issues and it appears that they had to do with technology and AI. Are you aware of any of that?

LO: Right. So there are two dimensions on this AI and high tech story. One is that I think U.S. accusation is that China Chinese government has been giving a lot of subsidies to high tech sector which is a bit of an unlevel playing field for foreign competition. The other dimension is stealing of technologies espionage and and things of it you know. So I think it ultimately boils down to a different economic model. And China comes out from East Asia has this East Asian development model where the government has a heavy hand on industries industrial policy is the hallmark of East Asian development model. And you know economic papers would say that the evidence and success of that model is actually very mixed. Japan is the prime example of East Asian model. A lot of money into industries. Some are successful others are not. We tend to hear about those success stories but unsuccessful stories. Waste of resources we don't actually know about.

AMT: But there's a fear, is there not, that amongst the Americans that somehow that the Chinese market will surpass or takeover on something like AIG for example.

LO: Sure, sure.

AMT: And how much of that fear is just based on economic competition?

LO: I think a lot of that is based on economic competition and in a nutshell really hitting hard on China would actually help because if you see the people who are actually powering technology sector research and are indeed in the United States most of them are Chinese and Indian immigrants. A lot of them right. So this tells you that a lot of other Chinese people if they had the choice they will actually come work in the United States. Right. So China really fundamentally doesn't produce such a conducive environment for talented people so you're not long term trajectory for high tech sector in China. She doesn't look very good.

AMT: Hmm interesting because there are those who say that if Trump has going to the wall on this issue that down the road Americans will be grateful that he's doing that does despite the the economic fallout along the way.

LO: Right. But you know high tech sector ultimately depends on whether there is a conducive environment for innovation and creativity. And that is highly related to political environment. If you start getting very repressive you depress creativity you know people ultimately want to leave and stop being creative. So I think that's actually very contradictory to the current political situation though in China.

AMT: OK. So and then let's bring it back to Canada again if you could walk into the PMO right now. What would you tell Prime Minister Trudeau on about this. You know Canada caught on in this bigger trade war amongst two titans.

LO: I was in a short to medium term strategy is be strategic in trade deals. Some people will not like it but I think that's a reality because we are much smaller country but also take the time to to engage in some long term strategic thinking. The situation is that we are caught between two powers who really doesn't care about our interests. Neither of them. We need to build allies so we are strong because we cannot stand alone We need a few allies. Countries such as Australia which is also caught in between. I think we have a lot to learn from Australia and currently there's an election coming up national election coming up in us in Australia. How to deal with China has become an election issue. This might actually happen in in Canada. So we need to watch out for a lot of things we need to think about and strategic readjustment of how did you with that season how to deal with China.

AMT: Thanks for your insights. Thanks for coming in. Lynette Ong is a China expert and associate professor of political science at the University of Toronto and the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. She's with me in our Toronto studio.

[Music]

Surfing should be a 'rebel yell,' not an Olympic event, critic argues

Guests: Pete Devries, Chas Smith, Tolga Ozyurtcu

AMT: This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: What makes surfing grab you and take over your life so much when you finally do get a day where everything lines up and there's no one around and you're sharing it with one or two close friends. It's a pretty hard feeling to beat.

AMT: That is Noah Cohen of Telfino, British Columbia. He's one of the top names in Canadian surfing. He's hoping to represent his country on the biggest sports stage in the world.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: For me what growing up in Canada and what the Olympics like has meant to me, there is absolutely zero reservation. I would you know, I would do everything possible to make sure I can get on the national team and be a part of that.

AMT: Well the Tokyo 2020 Games will be the first to feature surfing as a sport. There are plenty of surfers like Noah who are clamouring to compete, but not all surfing enthusiasts agree that it should be an Olympic sport. Competitors will be competing on natural ocean swells and some question how well the Games will showcase the sport if the waves end up only chest high. Plus there's a question of how well surfing's one with nature ethos fits in with the Olympics. Chas Smith is a surf journalist. He's not onboard with surfing being part of the Olympics. We've reached him near San Diego, California. Hi.

CHAS SMITH: Hi, how you doing?

AMT: I'm well So what are you thinking, not the sport for the Olympics?

CS: No. Heck no. I think surfing should be as far away from the Olympics as as possible.

AMT: Why?

CS: I think surfing is a lot more art than it is for it to begin with. And of course there is a professional Surf League the World Surf League where surfing is judged and there's a winner and a loser and all this sort of business but it's done over the year over like multiple different waves right, right. And the Japanese Olympics or the Olympic Games it'll just be one wave and it'll likely be a pretty pretty junky wave unless they get lucky and get a typhoon.

AMT: So in other words you're saying it's the wrong place?

CS: I'm saying it's the both wrong place and you know surfing is I don't know. It's best expressed I think over a variety of waves which is what the World Surf Lake toward us right. So they surf in Hawaii. They surf in Australia. They surf in a fake wave. They serve in Tahiti all around the world to crown a champion or you know an Olympic champion just after one place doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't think.

AMT: There was talk of creating a wave pool. What did you think of that?

CS: I mean that was that would have been even worse. The artificial wave thing is I think a kind of fun novelty. But if I definitely do not think that that's the future of surfing I mean there's you know taking surfing out of the ocean is is to me absurd.

AMT: So you know the International Olympic Committee has said that bringing and surfing and other new sports like skateboarding or rock climbing is when it calls and I'm quoting here and historic step in bringing the Games to young people. What do you think of that?

CS: I think it is absolutely silly. I think that the average age of the surfer in California is I mean is just at least here I think worldwide is is increasing the surfers are getting older and older. I think it's a pretty difficult thing that a lot of kids are necessarily picking up. So there's that for one and for two you know I just don't know if I don't know if it's kids even will be able to care at all about it. I mean it's it's not like it's a new sport and I think I don't know that kids watch the Olympics and I don't think it'll draw in. Definitely not surfing.

AMT: In your writing and as you report on this, do you find people who just think you are dead wrong?

CS: Yeah for sure. I think a lot of people in the surf community or a handful think this is exactly what surfing needs and needs exposure. It needs a you know a wider audience a bigger stage and that the more people who watch surfing or can enjoy surfing the better but surfing is one of those sort of rare things where the for the course surf community the more people who do it means the more people are going to be in the water. And that is the last thing a surfer wants is more people in the water.

AMT: How long have you been a surf journalist?

CS: I've been a surf journalist for 10 years I think or maybe even 20 years now. Uh oh.

AMT: How long have you been surfing?

CS: I've been surfing since I was eight-year-old so yeah, thirty five years.

AMT: And the idea that this is not the sport for that that it's a lifestyle versus a sport. Can you talk to me a little bit about that.

CS: Yeah. I mean surfing it's just precisely I I think surfing is a lot closer to art than it is to sport. And it is. I mean surfing you know it inhabits every part of the waking and sleeping surfers life from where they live where they vacation where they go. I mean it's it's a it's an obsession. I think more than even anything else. And yeah when it gets rammed into a sporting confines it's just always ugly even again with the world's early what they try to do there's so much tension in trying to judge surfing and surfing is not you know ice skating. It's it's something different. It's something unique and special I think in the entire world.

AMT: I mean because there are people who do quite well on the surf competition circuit, are there not?

CS: Sure they're great and they're fantastic surfers. But I think that they're not competing. I mean that's the competition side of surfing is is one part of it and it's one thing they do. Every one of those guys when they're not competing all they're doing is surfing.

AMT: So again it also comes to it. It also comes to the idea that the I'm sorry I've lost my train of thought I had it but it's the idea that it's okay to have a competition but not the way the Olympics holds it in a fortified period of time precisely a finite period time during one wave.

CS: That's good. That's going to be real crap. And the person who wins the gold medal I think will be perceived probably you know by at least a portion of the world as that is the surfing champion and that person will decidedly not be a surfing champion.

AMT: OK so Chas stay with us. I've got somebody else on the line. The person who we originally thought was coming on the line has disappeared, but we found Pete Devries. He's a pro surfer. He supports surfing in the Olympics. He's into Tofino, BC. Hi Pete.

PETE DEVRIES: Hi. How are you?

AMT: I'm well. You've been at the qualifiers. I guess that like there has been competition all weekend, has there not?

PD: Yes. We're doing the national championships and the Canadian qualifying for the Olympic team that will send to events where you qualify.

AMT: OK. And Chas Smith does not think this should be an Olympic sport. What do you think?

PD: I think it's a valid Olympic sport when you look at sports across the board. I think it's one that fits within their criteria well and it's a popular sport around the world and I think it'll be just interesting to see how it's run and see how it all works. From my point of view.

AMT: Do you have any concerns about the kind of waters you'll be surfing in whether they'll actually be ideal in the period of time that the Olympics are held?

PD: Yeah I think the the waiting period for the event is is quite sufficient. And you know Japan's not known for the best waves in the world especially the venue. But within the time frame I think they'll be able to find a day that's suitable for competition and just keep it exciting for the viewing public. Do you think that it will bring in more surf enthusiasts but potentially will it will bring in more people to surfing. Surfing is a sport that is growing exponentially right now. It's you know it's getting more and more busy around the world. So I don't think it's going to stop the growth but I don't think it'll be this crazy influx that a lot of people are thinking. I think it's just going to grow naturally.

AMT: Chas, what do you think of what he's saying?

CS: You know I understand the fun part of it. I just think that again back to the first thing he said about surfing is a sport that fits the Olympic criteria. Surfers surfing should never adjust itself down to any criteria. I think I think you know that part of the I mean it's just such an old part of surfing's DNA now but it's sort of the rebel yell right like that surfing was a rebellion against what everybody else was doing and trying to fit it into an Olympic criteria. Seems like OK now we're just trying to be like everybody else.

AMT: So it's almost the counterculture ends up in the culture. Precisely. What do you think of that Pete.

PD: Well I mean Chas does have a valid point. Surfing wasn't born in competition. I am primarily a Free Surfer what you call a surfer that goes on trips to remote places and takes a film crew with me and has a great time going surfing in these empty crowded locations that's kind of my first passion. But the way I look at it is how many surf competitions are run around the world. Every year there's competitions happening every weekend in every place. There's already NWSL tour that's been established for decades so it's already happening as the when I look at the Olympics at this point there's so many obscure sports that not many people are doing and surfing competitions are happening so often that it just makes sense. Why wouldn't they have it in the Olympics.

AMT: Chas?

CS: Because it doesn't belong. That's why because surfing I just think that you know surfing should be the light on the hicll of the thing that kids want to do when they want to run away from home. Not the thing that they want to do you know instead of or like they do soccer you know with and surfing I think already has such a soccer parent coach. I mean not soccer parent coach, soccer parent sort of thing that's happening with these you know parents who are whipping their kids down to the beach in order to I don't know. Try to try to get them good enough to get on the tour and stuff like that. I just again think that that's not the ethos of surfing and adding it into the Olympics just adds another unnecessary level of kind of corporate blandness.

AMT: Pete have you seen on a surf parents last week in India?

PD: Yeah I mean I I definitely agree that that is happening everywhere. I'm sure in California and Hawaii and everywhere to a greater extent. But you know I see it here. I have a 9 year old son myself and he is really in the sport surfing. Maybe his third third favourite at the moment but he plays hockey. He plays soccer and you definitely see it everywhere you go. But isn't that the great thing about surfing. No it's not. It can be what you want it to be. Right. It's not all about competition. You can surf weird boards and you can surf long boards and just go out with your friends. You can do every sort of aspect of the sport. And I think that that's one thing that is the best thing about surfing because these other sports you essentially need competition in order to play whereas surfing you don't need it. You can go out and do it on your own you can go with your friends on a trip somewhere and have the best time of your life or you can if you choose you can go in a contest and have a great result and be very happy with that as well.

AMT: Well I'm going to have to leave it there, but I should point out I guess I'm noticing that you two are very laid back in your disagreement. So I guess you're both keeping to the surfer ethos. Thank you for that. Maybe it's because you're on the West Coast. But anyway. Thank you both. Thanks a lot.

PD: Alright, thanks.

AMT: That's makes Pete Devries, pro surfer. He supports surfing in the Olympics. He's in Tofino in British Columbia. And Chas Smith, a surf journalist. He's just outside San Diego, California. Well there is a bit of a debate as you over including surfing in the Olympics, but it's hardly the first time that adding a sport to the Olympics has been questioned. Someone something called the club swinging was once an Olympic sport. Tug of war was once an Olympic sport. There was a swimming obstacle course even. For more on some of the stranger Olympic sports of the years, I'm joined by Togo Ozyurtcu. He is an assistant professor of kinesiology and health education at the University of Texas. He's in Austin, Texas. Hi.

TOLGA OZYURTCU: Good morning.

AMT: You know it's interesting listening to what they're saying about surfing because didn't snowboarding go through this argument as well? That it's a lifestyle that you can't really judge it.

TO: Snowboarding I think is the best parallel case that we've seen where when it made the Olympic program in the 1990s there were still a lot of the mainstream ski areas especially in the U.S. that didn't even allow snowboarders on the Hill. And so that kind of old guard skiing establishment winter sports establishment thought snowboarding was for the young punks and a lot of snowboarders said this is ridiculous. You know we're the rebels. We're not going to go there it's not about scoring points it's about doing our thing.

AMT: And now it's a very popular Olympic sport arguably the most popular winter Olympic sport with young people. So do you see that same trajectory do you think that that after you know a couple of Olympics that surfing will be a really hot thing?

TO: I think it could happen. I think surfing is relatively more established than snowboarding was at the time we'd had snowboarding in various shapes and forms for only a couple of decades really before it got into the winter Olympic program. But surfing has while serving as ancient but it has a real you know over a century of history and its sort of modern version. So some of these ethos and sort of ideological things that charges ring up are really much more entrenched and so I think we're going to see a boost in popularity that's going to come with exposure. But I'm not necessarily sure we're going to see the embrace at the same rate now.

AMT: I did say in the intro that the Olympics have featured some strange sports over the years. Do you have a personal favourite of those sports that were once there that fell away?

TO: You know I'm a trivia geek. I like a lot of sports people are and I think maybe just the most bizarre one for me is something that was called the plunge for distance which is something that any kid at a pool has ostensibly tried where as far as I understand it this was a competition that ran through the early part of the 20th century and you would dive into the pool and then you weren't allowed to move and whoever kind of floated the furthest from the momentum of the dive was the winner. And I think it's just bizarre it sounds so boring to watch and it really kind of highlights a lack of movement when we think of all sports being very movement intensive it's a sport about pure stillness and it's just fascinating. I wish we had video of it now.

AMT: When when did that happen.

TO: So I believe and a lot of this stuff is very trivial like I said I think it was only in the Olympics in 1984 at the St. Louis games and it lasted a sort of an international aquatics event. Like I said through throughout the 20th century, but it really kind of disappeared from any organized competition I'd say kind of after World War 2.

AMT: And there were no great underwater cameras at the time either, I guess.

TO: Exactly. Yeah.

AMT: Okay what about the tug of war?

TO: Tug of war is another one of those like surfing, it's ancient and I think there we have artefacts and art pieces from around the world China India Egypt even Indigenous North American and First Nations evidence that as long as we had rope people would jump on either side of it and pull out each other. And this one lasted a little bit longer than the plunge for a distance. It was featured in most of the Olympics from nineteen hundred and 1920 and they never quite settled on a format. At first there were six people on each side. Then down to five an eight man teams. But it's like it sounds whoever pulled the opposition a certain distance won and if they didn't pull them that distance it was after I think five minutes whoever dragged the other guys further. That was the winner of the contest.

AMT: Good example of hindsight being yeah that was a good one to drop out. How how do sports get dropped?

TO: So sports get dropped and sports get added through a similar process. It's much harder to drop a sport. We kind of after this sort of wild west of the early 20th century where we had things like tug of war and pigeon shooting. The program has generally stabilized and the international federations are pretty influential so they don't want to. They don't want to get dropped but when they do get dropped it's because of logistics often. So we lost baseball and softball in 2008 because it's not those aren't common facilities around the globe and so that was seen as a challenge for organizers. Wrestling actually was cut after the last Olympics but then was quickly put back and wrestling was dropped. The kind of consensus was because a bit of a concern about gender balance and also a bit of a concern about a lack of visibility for the sport. So it's really kind of logistics and market appeal are the two biggest reasons why we leave. We lose sports these days.

AMT: OK so now before I let you go what else are they hiding.

TO: So far the 2020 Olympics for 2020 will have surfing as mentioned skateboarding karate baseball and softball make their return and sports climbing which is sort of competitive rock climbing. What do you think I'm excited. These are unique. This is the first time ever initiative where the organizing host city is able to name a small portfolio of sports that they think will really resonate with their area. So skateboarding for example very unique. The course will actually be open during the Olympics and people can go and skate. So it's an interesting experiment on the horizon. Paris in 2024 is trying to keep skateboarding surfing and climbing but they're also trying to add breakdancing which we just called breaking when it becomes a sport.

AMT: So the debate will continue. Tolga thanks for your time today.

TO: Thank you.

AMT: That is Togo Ozyurtcu.He is an assistant professor of kinesiology and health education at the University of Texas. He joined us from Austin. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for Q. All week on Q, Tom Power will be sharing stories and music from his visit to Nunavut and this is a little bit of what's in store.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: The reason why we're here is because there is amazing things, amazing music and amazing art and amazing stories being told. I really really want to go to Iqaluit because I knew what it was like to be in Newfoundland and I knew Q used to go to New York and LA and it came to Newfoundland and all of a sudden it felt so special to see my music and my people up on stage. Thank you so much for welcoming us and thank you so much for coming here tonight.

[Music]

VOICE 1: Hello. How's it going? I got another co-host. Everything's alright. vThroat singing and electronic music just goes together so well.

VOICE 2: Yeah.

VOICE 1: Did you know that going in or was it a discovery in making this record?

VOICE 2: I mean I say that throat singing goes well with everything.

VOICE 1: I know you use traditions and techniques passed down from elders, how important is that to you in your work?

VOICE 3: It's so important to me because like I would not be here if it wasn't for our elders and our ancestors. Like sewing traditional garments has always been an important part of life in the north and for Inuit especially it's a skill passed down from generation to generation and I feel like it's so important for me to incorporate them into my designs.

VOICE 1: Here at home you don't have a permanent theatre.

VOICE 4: We don't.

VOICE 1: So give me a sense of what you currently have to do here to rehearse to perform to make garden spaces.

VOICE 4: Well we built an igloo behind my house for rehearsals this past week.

VOICE 1: Right.

VOICE 4: But the thing is, despite not having these facilities, what we create is world class.

VOICE 1: What do you feel when you watch all these artists tonight?

VOICE 5: It's amazing. I am super humbled and I'm full of love right now and I want to give it back to everybody in this room and just prove how much talent there is in Nunavut.

AMT: There you go, a little bit of the sounds that you'll be hearing all week on Q. Tom Power is waiting in the wings with all of that, stories and music from his visit to Nunavut. This by the way is Canadian surf music. Toronto's own Surfer Jets. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

The Current Transcript for May 13, 2019

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Your smartphone is ruining your sex life, says renowned sex therapist Dr. Ruth

'We need to build allies': How Canada should navigate the escalating U.S.-China trade war

Surfing should be a 'rebel yell,' not an Olympic event, critic argues

May. 13, 2019 episode transcript

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