Fighting Putin and climate change at once

Guests: Bill McKibben

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We all know that Canada is not a nuclear power, it is not a military power, and what we're good at is making sure that diplomacy is happening and meanwhile convincing other countries to do more.

MARK KELLEY: Canada has imposed sanctions, sent millions in aid, sent weapons, started a refugee programme in an hour. We'll hear from Minister of Foreign Affairs Melanie Joly about what we have done and what more we can do to support Ukraine. We'll also hear more of but what happened when a violinist from the London Philharmonic got Ukrainian musicians to play in their bomb shelters? And later this morning there.

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Was high fives and hugs, and then my brother came around the corner and I just start crying because it was that was it. We've been through so much for 20 years. It was the realisation at that point that this was the last race I would compete in.

MK: That's Brian McKeever. He was wearing bib number 16 when he crossed his final Paralympic finish line last weekend. The perfect number to mark his historic 16th gold medal. He'll be here to reflect on a record breaking career in about 30 minutes, but we begin this morning with a debate over what will replace Russian oil and gas. I'm Mark Kelley in for Matt Galloway. This is The Current.

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When we look at the the dependency that the West in particular has built up on Putin's hydrocarbons, on Putin's oil and gas, we can see what a mistake that was because he's been able to blackmail the West to hold Western economies to ransom.

MK: That's British Prime Minister Boris Johnson earlier this week on the challenge Europe now faces in weaning off Russian oil, gas and coal. And while he did discuss the need to scale up renewables and nuclear energy, it's also telling he made that comment during a trip to Saudi Arabia in the Gulf states. The goal was to get those countries to stabilise world markets by pumping more crude, and for those keeping an eye on climate crisis, that is the wrong answer. And that includes my next guest, Bill McKibben. He's the Schumann distinguished scholar in environmental studies at Middlebury College and the founder of the Third Act, a climate campaign for people over 60. Bill, good morning.

BILL MCKIBBEN: Hey, good to be with you, Mark.

MK: Thanks. Thanks for being with us today. When you see Boris Johnson reaching out to the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, as he did this week, how did you digest that?

BILL MCKIBBEN: Well, it's a reminder that fossil fuel and despotism often go hand in hand. You know, the war in the Ukraine is is not a war for fossil fuel in the ways that some of America's Middle East adventures have been, but it's very much a war about fossil fuel. Vladimir Putin couldn't have built an army without it. Sixty percent of its export earnings come from oil and gas. You can tell that because if you look around your house to try and find something Russian to boycott, there's nothing. There may be an old bottle of stall technology in the back of the liquor cabinet, but that's about it. And his main weapon for 20 years has been the threat to turn off the taps to Western Europe. If we are serious about standing up to Putin, then we have to figure out how to end all of our dependency on oil and gas. It's a global market and is long as we're depending on it. He's he and people like him. The King of Saudi Arabia, the Koch brothers, you name it, are much more powerful than they deserve. The good news is that we live in a moment when it's no longer necessary. Over the last 10 years, scientists and engineers have dropped the price of renewable energy about 90 percent. It's now the cheapest power on Earth. About an hour ago published a massive piece in The New Yorker explaining that we're at a point where we really could get off fossil fuel and quickly if we set our minds to it the way we do when, well, when we're in a war. And that's why the the work that I've done over the last few weeks has largely been focussed on the Ukraine. We've put out this big plan for sending heat pumps and other technology to Europe in a kind of reprise of lend lease before the Second World War, an effort to help people get off fossil fuel before it gets cold again next October. It'll take a lot of work. It'll take overcoming the vested interest that always wants us to stay hooked on what we're hooked on now. But it's possible.

MK: It's possible. But Bill, let's look at. I mean, Europe, for example, relies on Russia for about a third of its oil, 40 percent of its natural gas. So beyond good intentions, how do you replace that quickly?

BILL MCKIBBEN: Well, so for instance, look at the look at these heat pumps that people now has now become the kind of standard good technology for heating homes. The work that people are doing at the Department of Energy in the U.S. indicates that the industry could be churning out in just in America, millions of these within a matter of a few months because it's nothing more than an air conditioner. You can also run in reverse, and you could easily imagine getting large numbers of them installed in Europe right away. Europe also has a shortage of insulation right now, and in North America we have a lot of spare capacity to produce it. So the ships that are carrying over javelin anti-tank weapons. That's fine. But the other weapons that we need are things like insulation, air source, heat pumps, all the technologies that allow us to actually get free of fossil fuel and get free of the yoke of people like. I think it's pretty clear at this point that that's job one in the war, in the war in Europe, but it's also job one in the other war that's underway on this planet, you know, two days after Vladimir Putin invaded, invaded Ukraine. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate. Change published their latest round up of the climate news, the secretary general of the U.N. said it was the single most dire scientific study he'd ever seen. They predict that the UN predicts that we could see a billion refugees from climate change over the course of the next decades. Think of the problems the world is having, trying to somehow absorb three million refugees coming out of Ukraine and multiply that by three or 400 times.

MK: And well, you mentioned that U.N. report and I was struck by the fact that I won't say was ignored, but was largely overshadowed by the war in Ukraine, that that there was more focus on that than what was happening in the climate. And and I guess that comes down to the balance that we're the fork in the road right now is is looking more at what's going on in Ukraine. Is that diminishing the efforts for climate change to fight climate change?

BILL MCKIBBEN: My sense is it will have just the opposite effect, at least over the medium term.

MK: How so?

BILL MCKIBBEN: Well, because how could anyone look at what's going on in Ukraine, in Ukraine and not come to the conclusion that we'd be far better off not dependent on fossil fuel, fossil fuel, if you think about it, is concentrated in a few places around the world. That means that the people who live on top of those places end up with more power than they deserve. So Vladimir Putin is the king of Saudi Arabia. It's not like he's an interesting dude. He, you know, executed with a sword. Eighty one people this week. But because he has a lot of oil, everyone has to pretend he's got something interesting to say in my country. The Koch brothers are biggest oil and gas barons. Biggest landholders in Alberta's tar sands at different periods used their winnings to buy a political party and warp America's political system. Sun and wind come from everywhere. They're ubiquitous and omnipresent. A world that runs on them won't have the equivalent of Vladimir Putin. There's no way for a character like Putin to embargo the sun or block the wind. So it's fake realism to pretend that the way to stand up to him is somehow produce more of this stuff. The way to stand up for him is to move the world where we know it needs to go anyway. If we don't want it to overheat even more disastrously than it already has. This is a choice point, a private moment and the kind of place where we could make a big shift and and we'll see. I mean, and Canada's one of the places that will decide. I mean, you know, the oil and gas industry is using the moment to do things like push for new offshore drilling in beit enought off the Flemish cap, but that'll be three years before that even comes online. It won't do a thing about what's going on in Ukraine. It'll just deepen our dependence on fossil fuel. I think it makes much more sense to pay attention to figures like your environment minister. Mr. Guilbeault, who has really been quite clear in saying what we need to do is get off fossil fuel and onto renewable energy as fast as we can. And of course, Canada is well positioned there. There's plenty of wind that blows across the prairies and plenty of sun shines on Canada.

MK: Well, and you you mentioned that, you know, youth were dependence. And I think that the war in Ukraine right now has really highlighted that dependence on Russian fuel German factories, for example, have been deeply reliant on Russian gas, and their energy minister has warned that cutting off that supply could lead to mass poverty and unemployment. So when you're faced with that sort of argument, isn't that really pushing pushing the the kicking the can down the road about about climate change, fighting climate change?

BILL MCKIBBEN: Well, I mean, it would be if what we tried to do is just amp up the amount of gas we have in the world, but if we, as I say, used the occasion to make to make the really deep efforts to make a switch, then we're very smart. Look, of course, it's not going to be easy. It's never was going to be easy to change the fuel that undergirds our economy, but look at the sacrifices that people in Ukraine are making. Yeah. And you're going to tell me then you want to, you know, complain about, you know, high gas prices for a while.

MK: Well, but we'll talk about that, though. I mean that of the high gas prices has been a topic that that has been, you know, grabbing the headlines that that has been consuming so many people. So so I mean, that's part of it. That's part of it. That's part of the challenge.

BILL MCKIBBEN: It's been consuming. Well, it certainly has been grabbing the headlines and and it's an easy headline to do. But you know, most of the people that I talked to say I'm willing to pay higher gas prices for a while if it means that we can do something to stand with people in Ukraine. I don't think people are as selfish as journalists sometimes make them out to be. And I also think that it's a perfect reminder of just what we really need to do. I mean, you know, the Sun is delivering energy for exactly the same price that it did a week ago and a month ago, and it'll be delivering energy for the same price two or three months from now and two in three decades and millennia from now. That's why we'd be very wise to take this moment, and it's not as if we're going to get many more of these decision points mark right now. The IPCC has told us that if we haven't cut emissions in half by 2030, then our chances of meeting the targets that we set in Paris just what six years ago are by the board. So, you know, 2030 by my watch is seven years and nine months away. What exactly are we thinking? Else is going to happen that will spur us to make these kind of changes?

MK: Well, I like that looking at this as a decision point, but for others, they look at this as a business opportunity and even here in this country, and there are people who believe that even though we need to transition to clean energy, that will still take time and we need to think hard about where we get fossil fuels in the meantime. So I want to play you a clip from Jason Kenney. He's, of course, the premier of Alberta. He was at an energy industry conference in Houston last week.

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We are a natural answer to the challenge of global energy security. We have talked for years about how some of the world's worst regimes have had a growing presence in global energy markets and that revenues generated from those sales have been converted into violence, terrorism, conflict and global instability. Much of that energy being produced by regimes with radically lower levels of transparency of environmental standards, not to mention labour and basic human rights standards.

MK: Bill McKibben, what do you think of that argument? It's better to buy fossil fuels from liberal democracies than autocrats.

BILL MCKIBBEN: People like Jason Kenney have been keeping us hooked on fossil fuel for decades. I wrote the first book on climate change came out 33 years ago. We've known for a very long time what we need to do and if we'd done it and if we'd been able to overcome the opposition of vested interest. And Jason Kenney is obviously a perfect representative for vested interests. If we'd been able to overcome that, and we would long since have put people like Putin in the rear-view mirror, he's just making the argument for more of the same because it benefits him. And it's actually, at this point, disgusting to do it. I wrote an op ed piece last week with one of my colleagues in the Ukraine one a remarkable she was in. One of these is in one of these cities where the bombs are falling as we were typing back and forth on Google Docs, you know? And she was the point that she was saying, is a the people who have supported the fossil fuel industry have put us in a situation where we are and b we to remember too, that if we don't get out of this situation right now, then there's going to be an endless series of these wars, fights and conflicts. How stable and safe do you think the world is going to be as the temperature rises and rises if there are a billion climate refugees? What's your sense of how stable we're going to be at minus? We're going to live in a desperately unstable, desperately unsafe, desperately unhappy planet. And we don't need to do it. That's the point. Thirty years ago, it wasn't clear what we needed to shift to. But now, now sun and wind are the cheapest way to generate power on planet. The batteries to store that power have been coming down a plummeting cost curve. We could really move right now over the next 10 years off fossil fuel and onto, well, we could. Here's another way to put it. We could basically stop burning stuff on planet Earth and rely instead on the fact that the Good Lord put a large ball of burning gas 93 million miles away. That's our moment. And if we wasted just doing another round of the same, the same, the same. And we're fools.

MK: When we're talking about this, though bill, I mean that it would require investment, it would require a commitment. And right now, when I'm listening to political discussions that are happening in light of the the war in Ukraine, people want to spend more on military. It's like this has been a wake up call for some countries, including Canada, to say, we need to invest more in our military. That's that's now becoming a priority for many people. How do you feel about that?

BILL MCKIBBEN: We've put ourselves in a bad hole by building up people like Putin, and we do need to stand up to them. I mean, there's I'm very moved to see brave people in Ukraine fighting back against a monster. And we also need to take away the thing that supports that monster. It shouldn't be hard to figure. I mean, you fight wars on many fronts, right? And so here's an obvious front on which to be doing it. It doesn't require any of us to die or go, you know, kill anyone, as it did for our grandparents in the Second World War. But it does require us to move with the same kind of dispatch. Look in the in the year. In the year before U.S. and Canada entered the Second World War, we transformed the industrial base of this country in an all out effort to provide the material that would do the right thing. And in this case, the real transformation we need the real all out effort. The real transformation is precisely the one that builds with our instruments of peace, air source heat pumps, electric vehicle chargers, all the things that allow us to move very quickly. And these are like, these are impossible to build. I mean, at the height of the Second World War, the U.S. had reconfigured its factories, so it was producing a bomber every hour. A bomber is a big, huge, complicated piece of machinery 130,000 rivets. Solar panels not easy to produce, but it's not that hard. None of this is simple. None of it comes without cost. But add it up against the cost of allowing despots to dominate our politics and then add it up against the cost of allowing climate change to proceed. The latest economic estimate I've seen for the damages we can expect from unchecked climate change this century is $550 trillion dollars, which is more money than currently exists on planet Earth. So I think if I think that worrying too much about the fact that we're going to have to work hard and make investments is the definition of Pennywise and Pound very foolish.

MK: I look at politicians all around who are saying that they're going to give rebates to to deal with rising gas prices. It seems like you're talking about the Second World War effort that that relied on solidarity. I'm not feeling the solidarity, solidarity in that commitment to climate change right now.

BILL MCKIBBEN: Well, then do everything you can to build it because you've got a big platform I work at, you know, I've built 350.org, which became the first big grassroots global climate movement and has a wonderful 350 Canada branch. And now we're building Third Act, which is taking people over the age of 60 and turning them into real champions on climate change. So, you know, do what you can't. You have a better platform and megaphone than almost anybody in your country to help build that solidarity. So don't just, you know, wring your hands that it's not coming. Do what you can to make it calm.

MK: Are you feeling hope right now, Bill?

BILL MCKIBBEN: I'm feeling pissed off right now about Vladimir Putin and and about the oil companies that are doing nothing but taking this moment to try and wring windfall profits out of this situation. I think it's a reminder of just how irresponsible they have been for decade upon decade, and that irresponsibility is killing people in the Ukraine and it is killing the planet. And this is our last, maybe our last good chance to really do something about it.

MK: Bill, it's it's good to talk with you today.

BILL MCKIBBEN: Thank you for joining me to talk with you, to take good care.

MK: You too. Bill McKibben is the Schumann distinguished scholar in environmental studies at Middlebury College, his books include Oil and Honey and Fight Global Warming Now. The Handbook for Taking Action in Your Community. The CBC News is next.

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And then I do really love the sport. The adventures that you have while you're out there, I love the unique experiences. I love being able to travel to a different country. I said my life is richer in other ways, and I do believe that.

MK: Brian McKeever is this country's most decorated winter Paralympian. He's won 16 gold medals and he's been a flagbearer. And that's just some of what sport has added to his life. More on his career and his retirement in six minutes. I'm Mark Kelely in for Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay close.

Canadian Paralympian Brian McKeever on retiring a record gold medallist

Guest: Brian McKeever

MK: Hello, I'm Mark kelley, and you're listening to The Current.

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MK: Still to come, we'll dig into the role Canada is playing on the international stage in times of war. I'll speak to Foreign Affairs Minister Melanie Joly and our foreign affairs panel in about 30 minutes. But first one, last gold medal for one of this country's most decorated athletes.

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He was going as comfortably as he was at the start, but saying the technique never breaks down with this man and that legendary status as whale chasing history and just confirming his greatness. Really, McKeever the Magic Man, just too good, too strong. You run out of superlatives for him, really.

MK: Well, if you do run out of superlatives to describe Brian McKeever, just try to grasp these numbers. Two decades of competition six Paralympic Games, 20 Paralympic medals, 16 of them gold and 20 world titles in the Beijing Paralympic Games. He won in each individual event. He was in for the fourth Games in a row. It really has been an illustrious career for the Canadian para Nordic skier, a career he said has ended with these games to talk about his historic run and what's next. We reached Brian McKeever at his home in Canmore, Alberta. Good morning.

BRIAN MCKEEVER: Morning.

MK: Have you had a moment to reflect on everything that just happened in these games? Are you still in the in the spin cycle of success right now?

BRIAN MCKEEVER: It's funny. I think when you're when you're at the Paralympics or at any major championship, I think you're kind of in this world of stress where you're more just trying to get jobs done and focus on what you need to do. You've been putting in four years of preparation for 10 days in competition, and so it's important to just make sure that you have that focus. We always joke that's kind of type two fun and you're not having a great time, really what you're going through. It's just about getting it done. And then when you come home, then you have a chance. You know, I'm just starting to like, look back at what we were able to do. See if there are any lessons in there. And I'm kind of thinking about, I guess, at this point twenty years a career and reflecting back on that. So I'm still trying to come to grips with this being the last games as well, in which the last, the last race was probably harder than I actually imagined it would be emotionally.

MK: Because you knew it was going to be the last?

BRIAN MCKEEVER: Yeah. You know, it was great. It was so much fun to race with my team-mate Brittany Hudak. And when we got done, it was high fives and hugs. And then my brother came around the corner and then then I just start crying because it was that was that we'd been through so much for 20 years. It was the realisation at that point that this was the last race I was competing at the Games. I'm not fully retiring. I will stick around. I will train and race next year, but not to the same capacity. And it'll be more, you know, stepping into other roles and hopefully still being involved in the team. But knowing that four years from now, I won't be an athlete, I will be looking forward to that, it's still emotional.

MK: Well, I think it's interesting. You know, I'm trying to figure out as they look at your career and your career is well as that announcer had said in the intro, Legendary. But I thought they was this really interesting quote, and you were talking to Bow Valley News and you and when you talked about the training and the competition, you thought you said, I dread it. It's not like it's fun. It's work. And I really thought that that put your career into perspective. Explain that. I mean, those are words you usually hear from an athlete, I dread it.

BRIAN MCKEEVER: Well, I would say it's the competition. I don't dread going out and competing. For me, it was the greatest job in the world. You know that it's going to be hard and painful. And the pain is not just, you know about that, the efforts that you put in or anything like that, but it's actual the physical pain of being an older athlete and, you know, being kind of consistently injured. And so it's that constant battle of trying to make sure that you're putting in quality work, that you're doing the best that you can and then showing up prepared and ready to go and then you can reflect and have some fun about it. But while you're actually going through it, it is work and it's very hard.

MK: Your brother, Robin, skied with you as your guide until 2014, and there was that Super Bowl ad. I don't have to tell you about it, but maybe some of our listeners haven't seen it where it shows the bond of brothers and how you know he helped you really turn yourself into a world class athlete. What was that connexion is having your brother as your guide? How did that change your career?

BRIAN MCKEEVER: You know, we blame our parents for getting us started in the sport.

MK: That was the parents, fault, isn't it?

BRIAN MCKEEVER: Yeah, it always is. So, you know, they they loved going out in the mountains and getting up and skiing, and so they got us started. Really young kids, you and we hope. But as soon as we could walk that Robin six years older and so as the younger brother always wanted to follow in his footsteps, and that was probably a pain in the butt for him. But he quickly progressed in racing when he started and made the national team very young and about 16-17 years old, and ended up at the Olympics and in Nagano in 98. So I just continued to try and do similar things and you know, you always need good mentorship and. I mean, he was there he was he was in the family was, you know, I didn't need a hero from Europe. I had one there. So I was kind of on a similar trajectory when I was about 18 and lost my eyesight. And at the time, we were just starting to reconnect as well. I mean, when you're six years different, Robin was an adult when I was still a kid. And so we weren't really tight as friends. But by the time I was mature enough and you know, we started hanging out more, and once I joined the Paralympic programme, we realised I would need a guide pretty quick. And Robin's career was coming to an end and, you know, he jumped at the chance and we started working together. And at that point you became, you know, my mentor, my teacher. And so from for the next number of years, we grew together and we became best friends because of the work that we were doing and because of the time we spent and, you know, our shared background of our family. And you start to train every day with somebody. You better get along. It's it's important for the partnership and also for the success. And I think that was what was maybe emotional about that last day was that knowledge of what's gone on for all this time. And here we are together again. And in a way, it's sad that it's over, but in a way it's happy because it's we're still together.

MK: Brian, there's been some controversy about Canada's Olympic athletes getting paid thousands of dollars for meddling. While Paralympians don't get paid a single cent. Our Chef de Mission for the Beijing Paralympics Josh DUOC says he thinks it's time for this to change. What do you think about that?

BRIAN MCKEEVER: I mean, I don't disagree. I realise that in Canada, the way the system is the Canadian Olympic Committee has raised has raised funds and that organisation that is is paying medal bonuses to the Olympians. Canadian Paralympic Committee is far less visible, has far less sponsorship dollars and and funding coming in, and they can't afford to match it. That's been my experience in Paralympics for 20 years that, you know, the Olympic Games are the big bits, the big show. And when I started, at least Paralympics were more of the little sideshow. Vancouver did such a good job in marketing it as one Games, Olympics, Paralympics, together with a two week break in the middle, and that raised the profile for Paralympics in Canada. But it's still not at the same visibility level, and for me, at least as far as funding goes, we've enjoyed great funding as a team. So the government funding that comes in Sport Canada on the podium, you know, that stuff has been amazing. We have everything that we need in order to succeed. And so from that funding standpoint, we're doing really well, but that's a programme funded. It's not paying the athletes. And so for the hours put in and all that, yeah, I mean, I've never done this for money. I've never done it for medals. I've never done it for recognition, for any of that. I've done it because I want it to. I do really love the sport. The adventures that you have while you're out there, I love the unique experiences. I love being able to travel to a different country. I train on a new track. The novelty of that meeting wonderful people that are around the sport or outside of it, but just that newness of things keeps a career fresh. I always said my life is richer in other ways, and I do believe that. And yet I think when Josh is talking about the inequality and the funding, it's not about the money. In the end, it's about the parity, it's about the equality, it's about skiing Paralympics as a true parallel games to the Olympics and the athletes who are putting in very, very similar training, very similar training hours, the same work to be recognised for that as well. It's important to to have that parity because it shows that that's who we are as Canadians. And the more we normalise something, the more people see it, the more they actually stop focussing on the disability and seeing the person first.

MK: You've done so much for for the Paralympics, for the sport and as we mentioned off the top. Now you say you're done and it's been more than a career for you. It really has been a life. I look at another athlete your age, a guy by the name of Tom Brady. He decided to retire and then 40 days later, he changed his mind. Any any possibility of that Brian?

BRIAN MCKEEVER: Stranger things have happened. Uh, but I mean, an old friend of mine from Norway came back for these games that he retired after 2010. I think that's the strange thing in this sport is the door is always open for that. But I do believe that at least the way my life has gone is that you find a new path. It's less about looking back. It's more about looking forward, I suppose, or certainly enjoying the present, and I hope to find something that I'm equally passionate about. I imagine I will still be in sport. But I don't know that for sure, I will always be active while we ski. I cannot really imagine life without those activities. And in reality, at this point, I look at the team-mates that I have that are just amazing. They're training so hard and the personal growth that has gone on in the last four years and more, since some of them have come on, the team has been really inspiring. It's what's kept me involved is what's kept me wanting to be at my best, partly to provide an example, but also partly because they're doing the same thing. And I want to be, you know, I want to emulate what they are doing as young and excited athletes. They're poised to be the top athletes now. In many cases, they already are. And you know, it's their time to to have a spotlight and, you know, not have to live under a shadow of an old man. And that's not fair to them, either. And I hope to be there in some aspect to witness this because I find it really inspiring. I find it so exciting to watch what they do. And I'm really proud of each and every one of them for the races they put on, whether they won medals or whether they had personal bests or whether they just, you know, we're just experiencing the games for the first time and handling everything that happened in the last few years and what happened at the games, they handled it very professionally. They were able to get their jobs done, and that's incredible.

MK: Brian, you've made this country proud over and over again. Congratulations on one heck of a career and we all look forward to the next chapter.

BRIAN MCKEEVER: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

MK: Brian McKeever is retiring as Canada's most decorated winter Paralympian. I'm Mark kelley in for Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MK: You may remember that on Monday, The Current closed the show with that Ukrainian folk song. It was from a video showing 94 violinists from around the world playing together. Many of you wrote to us asking about the music, so we reached out to the person who brought all of those violinists together, including two from Canada. Kerenza Peacock has led Adele's orchestra as concert master. She's also a soloist with London's Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. She even played on a Madonna album, but she says this performance was the most meaningful. Here she is, in her own words, along with Canadian fiddler Carly Frey.

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KERENZA: On the day, Putin invaded Ukraine. I was so upset by the news and I was going about a normal day as if I didn't. I thought I was about to practise my scales and then run a few errands and do some more practise. And I just kept thinking, I wonder what my fellow violinist, my counterparts were doing in Ukraine that day. And I didn't know any violinists in the Ukraine. And so I took to Instagram and I friended some violinists in Ukraine and asked them what they were doing, and I was horrified to find out that they, some of them also, you know, practising and playing their scales. But in between, they were going to have to work out how to arm themselves and find shelter and work out where the nearest bomb shelter was. And it was just such a horrendous thing I couldn't even imagine. And many of them said they were sheltering in basements of their buildings with only a few belongings. But of course, they had their violins as their most important possession. And so they were feeling very isolated and worried that they'd never make it out of their bombs houses. And I just thought, Well, you know, really, the thing to do is to get people to accompany them in harmony and so that we're with them, even though we're not with them physically, that they're not alone. And so I contacted colleagues from around the world. I texted people in different countries, but I've worked with throughout my career and asked if people would be willing to make a video playing along in harmony and in solidarity with our Ukrainian counterparts. And I was amazed that some of the top violinists in the world just dropped everything they were doing and immediately stopped and recorded the video and Ilya had- I asked him to record an old Ukrainian folk song, and he sent me his video first, and then I passed around the world and everyone added their harmony to it. We actually had 10 violinists, 10 young violinists from Ukraine, and then I asked people from friends in London, from the London Symphony Orchestra, friends in Oslo, in Tokyo, Japan, New Zealand, Canada, obviously.

CARLY: Hi, I'm Carly Frey and the fiddle player and the singer in the fugitive, the Vancouver based folk band Crimson Peacock. My my fiddle pal in L.A. she texted me out of the blue, kind of describing how, through social media, she befriended some young violinists in Ukraine who are literally hiding in basements and shelters. And she described this incredible idea of bringing together other violinists around the world and in solidarity through these connexions she made. And of course, through this hauntingly beautiful Ukrainian folk tune, you watched the horror unfold in the media and you feel so helpless and frustrated, and I think I felt really compelled by the project already knowing, you know, the transformative power of music to to unify and inspire. I've always believed this a common language for peace. So I suspected that the outcome of this kind of international rallying call, you know, violinist unite would would likely touch people and in a different way than perhaps the news can and ideally raise more awareness of the tragedy. And of course, how to easily donate. What strikes me so clearly is amidst these explosions and any of this despair that it's possible for this really heart wrenching recording to come out in a matter of days or so immediately stirs hearts and forges these, you know, virtual connections and release such a strong message of solidarity. I think I think it means that just like in the case of every war the world has ever seen, we always find these glimpses of beauty and of things that make us as human and provide hope and demonstrates compassion.

KERENZA: We did it really fast because I knew that Ukraine was losing its internet connection sometimes, and I really wanted the Ukrainians to be able to see this video. And it's such an urgent situation. So I set a deadline of 48 hours and I was amazed at everything. They sent me their videos within a 48 hour timeframe. I was expecting we have about 20 people, but we ended up with 94. I think the fine and really touches the heart in a way that no other instrument can. Um, the things with the violin seem to be really cool on our emotions, and I think traditionally it's been an instrument through which people have expressed grief. So I think people, the violinist in this video and not just expressing the grief of the situation. And I think it makes sense. I really, truly believe that music can change the world, and I think I'm fine with it, agrees with me because he was also a fellow violinist, which lots of people don't know. But he played the violin and the world we know is made from vibrations. There's no such thing as solid matter, so it makes total sense to be that music can change things, not just emotionally. I think it can heal spiritually and even physically. This project has been more important than any concert I've ever done, because for made the points of music is connexion to remind people of what we should be as what's important and to help people connect to themselves, but also connect to a higher power and connect to each other. And sometimes I think as a musician, you can get lost worrying about like how many people are watching you, how many people in the audience, how perfectly you're playing a piece, and none of us is important. I think often we forget the points of music, and I think it's important to remember why it's powerful and where it comes from. And so for me, this project has been really important because I think it get right to the heart of the matter of what music can be used for. In terrible situations like in the Holocaust, people were saying when they had nothing left, they were in concentration camps and they had nothing, you know, nothing ahead of them and it was terribly frightening situation. They still wanted to make up and there was still music going on in the concentration camps and plays being put on. And we think that, uh, there were lots of people tried to make it out and say, Oh, it's a luxury, but really, when you have nothing left, it's the one thing that makes us human. You know, music is often said it's a universal language, and I think we're showing a real example of what can be achieved across nations. And people tend to think that music is a luxury and not a necessity. But I think music and art historically has managed to make political changes and changes in society. And I think this is one example of how it can be done. We've really shown how you can coordinate across 29 nations because I think musicians don't see boundaries of countries just so method. With this video has been one of unity and solidarity, and my vision is that if we could only fill the world with music instead of gunfire, it might drown out. If nothing else, I hope this video helps people remember our shared humanity.

[Music: Violin]

MK: That was Kerenza peacock and Canadian fiddler, Carly Frey. Also, we don't want to forget the pianists of Ukraine. Irina Maniukina lives in a city south of Kyiv. Earlier this month, her house was bombed, windows smashed, doors hanging off the hinges and most of her belongings destroyed. But somehow her grand piano still stood in good condition. Her daughter filmed a video of Irina brushing off the debris and sitting down to play Chopin in the middle of the destruction. They fled the city shortly after that. This is Irina Maniukina playing Chopin as a goodbye to her family home.

[Music: Piano]

MK: Coming up after your regional update, Minister of Foreign Affairs Melanie Joly will be here to talk about Canada's commitments to Ukraine. I'm Mark kelley. You're listening to The Current.

Music for Ukraine; and Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly on Canadian support to Ukraine

Guests: Melanie Joly, Aisha Ahmad, Bessma Momani

MK: I'm Mark Kelley, and you're listening to The Current. The U.N. stated yesterday that over 700 civilians have been killed in the war in Ukraine so far, though the actual number is likely much, much higher and international condemnation of Russia is getting louder after a theatre sheltering hundreds of civilians was bombed in Mariupol this week. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky continues to call for a no fly zone. His latest appeal yesterday to Germany's parliament. But NATO's countries, including Canada, have so far refused. Melanie Joly is Canada's minister of foreign affairs, and she joins me now in the studio.

MELANIE JOLY: Good morning. Good morning, Mark.

MK: We look at diplomacy. The the basic foundation of diplomacy is about truth and trust. Do you trust Vladimir Putin?

MELANIE JOLY: Of course not. Vladimir Putin has lied to the world before this war and when he started the war and is continuing this entire justification of his war because it is mark, his war is based on the fact that the Ukraine needs to be denied a fight. Mm-Hmm. President Zelensky do it himself that there is a genocide in the Donbas and new heights, which are the territories that the east part of of Ukraine, which is clearly not the case. So and he has refused time and time again to send any form of mission to Ukraine to see whether any war crimes or any crimes against humanity were committed. So that's why we decided to petition the International Criminal Court on this to make sure that war crimes would be investigated, and also that we're supporting Ukraine as a as a party before the International Court of Justice against Russia.

MK: The US President Joe Biden has called him a war criminal. Do you agree with that?

MELANIE JOLY: Well, clearly there are war crimes and crimes against humanity being committed. I spoke to the U.N. Human Rights Commissioner Michelle Bachelet two weeks ago because I wanted to make sure that she was supported and her team was supported while being in Ukraine and documenting. And we want the Red Cross even to go to Ukraine to help civilians. But constantly. Russia has been against even the Red Cross, going to Ukraine because of fear of documenting what is going on. So we know that propaganda is is at the core of what Putin is saying, and he doesn't want the truth to be to be shown to the world.

MK: The call for a no-fly zone has been repeated over and over again, and it's a desperate cry that's coming from Ukraine. And yet the natal countries, including Canada, as we mentioned, remains unmoved on that point.

MELANIE JOLY: Well, I wouldn't say unmoved in the sense that obviously we're all emotionally involved in this and and we understand the dire need for President Zelenskiy, his government than Ukrainians to be able to have a form of of momentum in the air space and to be able to control their airspace. We can't do a no-fly zone because that would trigger an international war. So that's our red line. But what we're doing is providing weapons and particularly anti missiles weapons that will help Ukrainians fight in the air as well.

MK: But do you see that as a long strategy? I mean, how long can this go on? How much suffering can can Ukrainians endure before this long strategy starts to pay off?

MELANIE JOLY: Well, one day more is always is. Too much is too many. But at the same time, this is Putin's war. He decided to take a go at war against Ukraine, and it is a failure and it will be a failure of Putin because he decided to launch this war, and he thought that it would last maybe one to three days. It would be done very swiftly. But the Ukrainian people have been amazing in their resistance. Men and women are now fighting against Russian forces and combating on the ground very, very in a very efficient way. But at the same time, we have to be patient and to our listeners right now, I would say, are one of the biggest threat we have as Canadians is is to become used to the images and the videos we're seeing online because we can't normalise this war. We can't be accustomed to suffering. We need to be patient and we need to be standing by the side of Ukrainians in this conflict.

MK: Today, the US president will be in conversation with the Chinese leadership. What how do you see China in its role right now, who see it as as as hindering a settlement or helping a settlement?

MELANIE JOLY: Well, we all took note of China abstaining at the U.N. vote that happened last week or already, I think two weeks ago when the 141 countries voted against Russia's aggression of Ukraine and our expectation, my expectation as foreign minister is that Russia, being a member of the U.N. Security Council, do its part not to escalate the conflict. And so I've asked my diplomats, are our officials to make sure to convene that information that position to China. And I think also we need to engage. All G7 countries will be engaging China. I think we need to do as well.

MK: Canada has engaged Russia.

MELANIE JOLY: That's not true. I've had the chance to. I don't. Now, if it's a chance...

MK: But the prime minister has sat down or had a meeting with Vladimir Putin, other NATOnatal countries have. Why hasn't Canada?

MELANIE JOLY: I've had the chance to talk to Sergei Lavrov and the summer when I was the at the OSCE and I decided to go at, you know, up to him and talk about Ukraine. And and at the time, there were 100000 troops at the border to express my preoccupation and to make sure that there would not be any movement of these troops. I was very clear. He shouted at me. I was unmoved. And, you know, I made sure that my position was conveyed. And then afterwards, of course, I've been in contact with the Russian ambassador here to Canada, summon him. And I told him looking directly in his eyes what I thought about what the Russian regime was doing this week.

MK: There were a number of former Canadian generals who are upset by your comments regarding our military. You said we're a middle sized power. What we're good at is convening and making sure that diplomacy is happening and convincing other countries to do more. You've been criticised for saying that you made Canada sound weak. Do you regret what you said?

MELANIE JOLY: Well, I believe in our armed forces. I value their work. I was in Ukraine with them just before the war with Operation Unifier. I was in Latvia as well, where we lead a NATO mission. I was in Romania last week at a military base. So I also think that they need to be better equipped. I think that we need to do more to support them and more quickly, and I'll work with Minister and I and the Minister of Defence on this. And and I think the world has changed since the beginning of the war.

MK: How so?

MELANIE JOLY: Well, Germany decided to put two percent of its budget on the fence. I've had long conversations with my colleague, Minister Baerbock, who's the foreign minister of Germany. And this is a huge change for their foreign policy, and I think that Canada needs to adapt to this challenging world. We have to be protecting our Arctic, the Great North. And we need to support our men and women in uniform.

MK: But that's what I think. Are you seeing you mentioned the North. Are you seeing now that Russia as a potential combatant or enemy as we as to protect our north?

MELANIE JOLY: Well, I don't trust Vladimir Putin. You know, Finland has had conversations to join Nieto at this point. There are conversations happening in Sweden. Joining Nieto, I'm not saying it will happen, but the conversations and the support of people in Sweden, this is higher than before. There are clearly preoccupations along the eastern flank of Europe. And so we know that there is a level of irrationality when dealing with Putin. We know also that Arctic countries. So obviously the US through because of Alaska, but also Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Norway are extremely preoccupied. And I'm having conversations with all of my counterparts because it is important to have a strategy.

MK: Some people believe that the solution to Russian aggression right now is regime change. Getting rid of Vladimir Putin. Do you see that as a possibility?

MELANIE JOLY: Well, clearly it is important that dissident voices within Russia be heard and that they that they are able to express their opinions. But since the beginning of the war, the legislation and the entire approach of the regime has been to silence these voices. And so I'm very preoccupied with also the state of these Russian protesters. That's exactly why. Also, I want us to make sure that we have an ambassador in Moscow to have ears and eyes on the ground because it is difficult to have information coming from Russia at this point. And we need to make sure that we're able to know what's going on and that we can support information information flows to these people that are against what Vladimir Putin is doing.

MK: Last point with you, the prime minister will be at NATO's next week there in Brussels. What? What can we expect from that?

MELANIE JOLY: Well, I think we've shown tremendous unity as the West since the beginning of this crisis. We need to continue to show this unity. A lot of the coordination is done through the G7. I've had a meeting with the G7 foreign ministers yesterday. The Prime Minister will have one. Also next week, he'll be on Naito at the G7 and also he'll be invited by the European Union, along with along with other colleagues from the US and the UK to to speak with European leaders. This is a first in our history. This is good news, but also what Mitro Kuleba, my colleague from Ukraine, has asked us and has said to me repeatedly. Ukraine needs more weapon and needs more sanctions, and that's what the prime minister will be talking about that NATO.

MK: Melanie Joly, thank you so much for your time.

MELANIE JOLY: Thank you, Mark.

MK: Melanie Joly is Canada's minister of Foreign Affairs. Well, for more on this, I'm joined by our Foreign Affairs Panel. Aisha Ahmad is Associate Professor of political science at the University of Toronto and a senior researcher at the Munk School of Global Affairs and Bessma Momani is a professor of political science at the University of Waterloo and a senior fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation. Good morning to you, both.

AISHA AHMAD: Thanks for having us.

MK: Bessma, you've been listening in on the conversation with the minister Joly. What's your comment?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well, I mean, I think I mean, you can see there's certainly, I think, a lot of concern, but I think that the proof is in the pudding for so many of our NATO allies and us is really what are we going to do? I mean, I think we're we're at a standstill in that, you know, even though we've been able to provide certainly some defensive equipment and ammunition and so forth, we're really very clear about not willing to go in the entire fight, which I think really does reflect the interests of the majority of people today in natal countries. I don't think they want to fight in a war. And so the the argument of not putting forth a no fly zone is probably wise and prudent, but it really does come at the cost of Ukrainian lives. Absolutely. And I think this is this is what I think the Kremlin sees. It sees absolute inaction from Natal. It knows its red line. Ironically, it knows that we're not willing to go in all the way. And so it will continue. And we know that unfortunately, from past experience that the Russians, when they enter in these kinds of conflicts and produce these wars, they're quite willing to be ruthless. And so the humanitarian fallout of this is just going to be immense. And I think we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg of what's coming. Remember, the Russians haven't really gone in yet with their full aerial assault. Most of this has been, you know, ballistic missile use. So once they, you know, once the Russian Air Force gets into this and for I think we're going to see a devastation beyond beyond the the devastation that we've seen today in horrific terms.

MK: Aisha, the minister, used the word patience a couple of times, and it's certainly easier for Canadians to be patient about our diplomatic approach, but not so much for Ukrainians. I mean, what do you make of this pleading patience at this stage of the game?

AISHA AHMAD: OK, so what I'm going to say right now is that first specimen specimens very right, that Russia hasn't actually gone in that hard, as it has in other conflicts. And you know, that's where I think Melanie, usually the minister, was incorrect in saying that they thought they could win it in two to three days. They did not approach this conflict with shock and awe the way the Americans went into Baghdad, and they've they've systematically escalated their approach. And really, if we look at their behaviour, they are pushing for change, you know, for Zelinsky to cave, which is already starting to indicate that there is a different bargaining arrangement or bargaining space now than there was pre war. And so this idea that you know that Moscow is just going to level Ukraine the way it has levelled other cities in the world, I don't think that's the only option and this idea that we have to be patient and that somehow this is going to be a 20 plus year war or the only alternative is World War Three. Neither of those are the only two alternatives. I mean, we also have the possibility and space of a negotiated settlement, and that space is still very real. And while I understand very much why Zelensky has called for a No-Fly Zone, if I were in his war cabinet, I'd recommend the same thing. But Naito is doing the most prudent and appropriate thing by saying no. If in fact NADO imposed a No-Fly Zone, it would become, frankly, a World War. It would drag in allies. The analogy is not the World War Two analogy, but the World War one analogy where, you know, allied nations get dragged into a very hostile war very quickly. And then it would tip the balance of power in the Ukrainian theatre. But frankly, it will lead to way more civilian casualties. I mean, we're talking about just a scale that is beyond anything that we've seen in the Ukraine right now. And so it's not just patients in the sense of, oh, be patient as you watch people die. Believe me, I've worked in war zones for 20 years. I am very, very attuned to the civilian side of what these conflicts look like. It's about being as cool as a cucumber and not letting your emotions dictate your strategic decision making because you couldn't make it worse. And that's the prudence that is being employed in this very, very sensitive time. Great power transitions and great power confrontations are extremely dangerous times in the world. And that is why having red lines and having very careful strategic approaches to dealing with conflict flashpoints like this is so critically important, and so cooling the jets is the best way forward, not adding fuel to the fire.

MK: Bessma, do you see a possibility here for a negotiated settlement?

BESSMA MOMANI: You know, it really depends on what is Russia's real long term aims here. And you know, there's two narratives here. One is that this is really about pushing to get things like recognition of Russian annexation of Crimea and the so-called declaration of not joining Natal or demilitarisation of the army. I mean, there's a list of things that they purported that they want to see. I mean, that's one interpretation of all this, but I really feel like we should listen to what Putin said, which is, you know, he doesn't believe in the Ukrainian identity. Right? And so if it's about total collapse of the Ukrainian government to install a puppet regime, I mean, that's just a non-negotiable. I mean, I think that's the point. If we knew what the clear aims of Putin was, then I think we could have a negotiated process. But I also caution that, you know, listening to or even just observing what we've seen in the past with Russian behaviour is that they use the negotiation round really for just a delay tactic. I mean, this is what they did in Syria, what they did previously. They really love to sort of have these rounded conversations, high level, continue to talk, talk, talk, talk while they bomb away. And so if it's really about capitulation of the entire Ukrainian government, I don't think we can negotiate that away. But the obvious the opposite of that or that the flip side of that, I should say, is what are we going to do about it? And I don't think we're going to go all the way, and that's the real sad part. It's going to really be the Ukrainian people at the end that pay the price.

MK: Do you see that too, that Russia is going through the motions of diplomacy to really buy time to further cripple Ukraine?

AISHA AHMAD: You know what that is. Those are extrapolations as opposed to if you look at the concrete demands that the Russians have made. And if you look, you know, pre war during war and now one of the big demands was that Ukraine never had NATO's membership. No, Zelenskiy did not budge on that point. Pre war. And we saw how things unfolded. And that remains one of the top demands by the Russians today, and Zelensky has now capitulated on it. And to be honest with you, Zelensky is bargaining position is now worse than it was pre-war because he has, well, you know, he's already capitulated on the NATO membership issue, which is if you just if you take the emotions out of it and just look at the fact pattern, that's a loss. And now he also has the Donbass issue to deal with which pre-war yes, Crimea has already been de facto in Russian control for years. But the Donbass has now become even more of a tricky situation because they've been declared independent by the Russians. And so that will be a more complicated bargaining agreement. So they're going to be some, you know. But the idea of complete occupation or a takeover or puppet regime, Basma, I'm not saying that. I don't think that there's a possibility that as the war unfolds, you know, if Zelensky's regime falls, that that is what Russia will do. But right now, that bargaining position is still strong enough to retain the identity of the Ukraine. And you have to figure out now what to do with the Donbass region, which sucks because let's be honest, if this could have been resolved by a negotiated settlement before people started dying. You know, Ukraine was never going to become part of NATO's anyway. And so now that that has been sort of accepted, that seems like something that frankly a good set of good negotiating team or good war cabinet should have thought that through before this happened. And now we have a trickier bargaining environment. And frankly, I will say the longer wars go on, the rougher these negotiated settlements get. And frankly, your cities get just increasingly and increasingly obliterated. And so I am- well, you know, they're not homes in Aleppo yet. And so I am a big fan of using the negotiating space that is available to you earlier in the war. And you know, I've studied Afghanistan for 20 years and there were a lot of people who weighed big and emotional speeches about how we will never negotiate with the Taliban. When the Taliban were in a weaker position and 20 years later, after a whole lot of people were dead, that negotiation was terrible. And so, you know, right now, these cities are not wholly destroyed and there is a quasi reasonable bargaining space that can be fought out with smart diplomats and for the sake of human lives. I think that is the smartest way to go because no one wants World War three. And frankly, I don't think anyone wants a 20 year war in Ukraine, either.

MK: Best, best man. What what role do you see China playing in this? Because it could be a change maker as as as the world hopes for a negotiated settlement here.

BESSMA MOMANI: I'm not sure I wouldn't put my faith in the Chinese, I mean, you know, if you just take a look at what China has been issuing in terms of its statements, it's really been relishing in this, particularly seeing obviously, you know, a pushback against what they see as the Western expansionism. So I mean, they really, I think, are rooting for Russia and for Putin to win. I mean, it's very clear at the same time, they're really trying to stay away from going against the international economic sanctions. And so they're skirting it and basically using barter in other ways of really kind of sticking to the letter of the law, but effectively continuing to do business with Russia if they can. And that's partly because the more is the world for them and Russia's just tiny compared to the rest of the world, particularly in Europe and the United States. So I mean, that's Russia's role. I mean, I think, you know, back to just the broader question of diplomacy. I really do hope diplomacy wins. I mean, for the sake of the Ukrainian people, that's really at the core of it. Any in Ukrainian is would be really important here. So I just think that there is there's been not saying exhaustive because there's just no such thing as too much diplomacy. But at the same time, I'm not sure if all the Western promises to Putin would be enough on it again. I'm not sure it would work, and I hope it does. I really do. But you know, we've seen people like Michael and others kind of stick their reputation at this point, The Current look silly as to how much outreach he's done to to Putin, just to be snubbed away. So I'm not sure it's going to work. I hope it does. And we don't get at the thorny issues of what now with the fact that the Russian occupation has expanded. I mean, I think if you look at the strategic side of their military actions, they think we've taken over Mariupol. Are they trying to create a land bridge between Crimea and the Donbass? So that includes a new element. I mean, in terms of the demands of the Russians, if it was just about recognising the independence of Donetsk and Lugansk, that's one thing in Crimea. But now we're talking about lots of southern Ukraine. I mean, Odessa, it seems like it's next. So it's unclear. Is that just bargaining? I mean, if that is an insult against the Ukrainian people, they're paying the ultimate price war for this bargaining tactic, I'm afraid.

MK: Yeah, I'm afraid that too. And that's why when I hear the minister talking about patients, I just feel for the people in Ukraine. It OK, Aisha, we've got we've got 30 seconds, but please, OK, I'll give you the last word.

AISHA AHMAD: What I will say is, so this question does Macron look silly? I don't think Macron looks silly, and what I will note is that the minister said that she doesn't trust Vladimir Putin. And what I will say is no one trusts anyone in wartime and it requires an enormous amount of, you know, inner calm and rationality to get this kind of job done. But it is essential. The thing about these prolonged wars is that you will fail and fail and fail until you get that bargain. But you got to stick with it because the costs are incredibly high and the way forward for everyone on this is de-escalation, not escalation. That's the best thing for the Ukrainian people, and it's the best thing for the world.

BESSMA MOMANI: And I hope Aisha is right. I really do.

MK: I really do. I certainly do, too. I want to thank you both for joining us this morning. Aisha Ahmad is an associate professor of political science at the University of Toronto, a senior researcher at the Munk School of Global Affairs, Bessma Momani is a professor of political science at the University of Waterloo and a senior fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation. Well, that's our programme for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for q celebrated singer songwriter Donovan Woods as a new EP called Big Sad Boy, and he'll drop by q to introduce a song from the record and for a very special edition of Jam or Not a Jam. Now, earlier in the programme, we told you about a group of violinists from around the world who performed in solidarity with Ukraine. Russian musicians have also spoken out against the invasion. At a concert in late last month in Germany, Russian pianist Alexander Melnikov told his audience, We all have our red lines. The beginning of a war must be the reddest of all red lines for everyone. I'm furious with Putin for making me feel guilty about being Russian, so we'll leave you this morning with Alexander Melnikov playing Sergei Rachmaninoff's Etude Tableau, Opus 39 Number two. I'm Mark Kelley sitting in for Matt Galloway. I'll be back with you on Monday. Thanks for listening to The Current. Have a great weekend.

SOUNDCLIP

[Piano]

The Current Transcript for March 18, 2022

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Fighting Putin and climate change at once

Canadian Paralympian Brian McKeever on retiring a record gold medallist

Music for Ukraine; and Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly on Canadian support to Ukraine

Friday March 18, 2021 Full Text Transcript

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