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The Current Transcript for February 2, 2021

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

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Prologue

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MAN: The new measures about testing upon arrival, the quarantine at a hotel, the cost of the quarantining at a hotel applies to all non-essential travellers.

MATT GALLOWAY: Don't travel outside the country unless absolutely essential. That has been the message from politicians and public health officials for months now. And now, those who do travel face mandatory hotel quarantine and further scrutiny. Too late, say many observers, and too much, say many of those who've already jetted off to escape winter. Inside the battle to keep Canadians from travelling and the COVID variants from travelling here, in 30 minutes. Also, this morning,.

MAN#2: We are still in disbelief that this happened. And, honestly, we really don't know where this coup will lead us to?

MATT GALLOWAY: Democracy derailed as the military takes power in Myanmar. In an hour, what the coup means for the country's once celebrated now detained leader, Aung San Suu Kyi, and for the Rohingya minority, she is accused of abandoning in a genocide. And later, the CBC's Chris Brown on the extraordinary protests in Russia against the arrest of opposition leader Alexei Navalny, and whether that country's strongman leader, Vladimir Putin, is rattled by all of this. We begin, though, with those on the front lines of this pandemic. Doctors at the breaking point. Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And this is "The Current".

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Pandemic stress pushing some doctors to breaking point

Guests: Rod Lim, Ajmal Razmy, Jillian Horton

MATT GALLOWAY: COVID-19 has been incredibly demanding of health care workers, the recent death by suicide of a Quebec doctor sent shockwaves across Canada's medical community. Dr. Karin Dion was known as a dedicated and caring E.R. doctor in Granby, Quebec. Her sister spoke with the CBC's Rosemary Barton on Sunday.

GENEVIEVE DION She knew that she was more stressed than usually. She was not able to sleep very well. She knew that if she didn't sleep well, it was more difficult for her to work. She was very close to her family and her sister and mother. So it's not because she didn't talk about that, but it just like it was too much stress, a of deal.

MATT GALLOWAY: Genevieve Dion, the sister of Dr. Karin Dion, who died by suicide a month ago. A second doctor also died by suicide in Quebec just last week. The suicides are raising concerns about the toll that COVID-19 is taking on Canada's medical front line. Joining me are Dr. Rod Lim, director and section chief of the paediatric emergency department at the Children's Hospital in London Health Sciences Centre in London, Ontario. Dr. Ajmal Razmy is a psychiatrist and head of service for mental health and addictions at Joseph Brant Hospital in Burlington, Ontario. And Dr. Jillian Horton is a specialist in internal medicine and medical educator based in Winnipeg. Good morning to you all.

ALL: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to have you here. Dr. Horton, I want to start with you. What was your reaction when you heard about the death of Dr. Dion?

JILLIAN HORTON: Well, thank you, Matt, for having us to talk about this today. You know, it's sickening. And that is the most visceral reaction, I think, for myself and any other physician hearing about this. But the second part is, I am so sorry to say I am not surprised. I think most of us stepping back, you know, to almost a year ago, basically looking into the situation as it was evolving. We could see that with medicine's pre-existing issues around mental health and workplace culture, that this pandemic was going to be very big trouble for an already struggling profession.

MATT GALLOWAY: There are a number of things in there that I want to go further into. But just briefly, before we do that, Dr. Lim your reaction to... to the death of Dr. Dion?

ROD LIM: Yeah, I want to echo what Dr. Horton was... was.... was saying is that unfortunately, this is not surprising in the fact that, you know, we've been dealing with some quite a bit of unhealthiness within our profession, even prior to the pandemic. But this, any... any loss is an absolute tragedy. I know, for our fellow emergency doctors, we have taken this pretty hard. For all accounts that I can see it's huge. It was an absolutely remarkable person, mom and physician, and we're devastated by the loss.

MATT GALLOWAY: And Dr. Razmy, for you, I mean, in some ways this hits close to home, and hits close to home for for members of your team in your own region as well.

AJMAL RAZMY: Yeah, Matt, certainly in the Halton region, there's also recently a nursing staff member that died by suicide as well. I think predominantly the reaction, in addition to what Dr. Horton and Lim said, is anger. A lot of us are angry at the system. Why are we left holding the bag like this? And we're devastated. And we need to make some changes.

MATT GALLOWAY: Can you tell me more about that anger? You used the phrase holding the bag. What do you mean by that?

AJMAL RAZMY: Well, I think it goes back to Bansky's depiction that he donated to Southampton General Hospital in the U.K. It is a picture of this young kid holding a nurse superhero. It's called "Game Changer". And it was literally a game changer for our health-care providers because the amount of stress that we all put on ourselves as health care providers going into the profession is the same stress that's really crushing us.

MATT GALLOWAY: You focus on burnout and resilience. What do we know about how prevalent that is in your profession, Dr. Razmy?

AJMAL RAZMY: Well, I think as health-care providers in general, it's... it's omnipresent. But at a minimum, the CMA has looked at some numbers a couple of years ago in terms of some of the physician surveys, and they estimated around 30 per cent of physicians are going through a burnout. I would say it's much higher than that. And certainly, post-pandemic, at a minimum, we're looking at 50 per cent. I would say the majority of health-care providers are feeling burnout. And it's important to really understand what burnout is. So we're talking about exhaustion, we're talking about increased cynicism, and we're talking about a general feeling of lack of efficacy. And all of those elements have to be present. But I would say over half.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is that what you feel, Dr. Lim, in the E.R.? You're right there. I mean, that's the front door of this pandemic in many ways. Is what Dr. Razmy described what is felt in your emergency department these days?

ROD LIM: [defeated chuckle] It's interesting. We just did a study prior to the pandemic, and 86 per cent of emergency doctors in Canada were burnt out. We're one of the worst health professions in... in... in Canada. And in some ways, during the pandemic, at least early on, because we have a renewed sense of purpose, prior to the pandemic, we had so much bedlock and so much system problems that it was hard to feel like we're doing good for the patient. And during the early phases, we actually had a little bit of a galvanization and a calling that was... that was very inspiring. But through this period of time now into the second wave, almost a year into this, absolute fatigue has set in, and absolutely, we're... we're absolutely in crisis.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Horton, you talked right off the top about the workplace issues. You've written a memoir that's coming out this fall. And the title of it, I think, speaks in many ways to the conversation that we're having, which is, "We Are All Perfectly Fine". Tell me a little bit about the workplace that would exist, the conditions in the workplace that would lead not only to the conditions that you're describing, but also to a stigma in addressing what's happening.

JILLIAN HORTON: Yeah, the book is actually coming out this month.

MATT GALLOWAY: This month!

JILLIAN HORTON: By fluke, it so happens that topically, [chuckling] it feels very, very relevant. It was, of course, written pre-pandemic. You know, our workplace culture, as Dr. Lim and Dr. Razmy are hinting at, there are a lot of very deep-rooted problems. And one of them, you know, we've alluded, and we've heard a lot during this pandemic about this idea of physicians superhero, you know? And we have a long history in our profession of suppressing our physiologic needs in the name of training. So working through extreme and unwise and unsafe sleep deprivation. You know, when I was an intern and a resident, I routinely did 36-hour shifts. In many of our residency programs, those kinds of things are still not really that unusual, although we've superficially made some moves to improve that. And we also have a real culture of, you know, that heroism has a dark side too, right? Because if you are responsible for the good things, then you're also responsible for the bad things. So when your patients have a bad outcome, even though we know that most medical errors and complex problems in the health system are due to, you know, failures in a number of levels, when your framework and your sort of template is to be taught to think of yourself as superhuman or a hero, well then those things, you must own them too. And you can just imagine the stigma and sort of these cross-purposes that create all of this inner tension for physicians to talk about, feelings, to talk about mistakes, to complain, to identify that they are struggling with some of those, you know, conditions, the needing sleep, needing food, needing rest periods. I mean, once we start to talk about it in the mainstream in the way that is becoming so much more common now, it's actually through, I think, the questions of people who are not part of medical culture that it becomes obvious to us how bizarre and how absurd and dysfunctional those aspects of our culture really are.

MATT GALLOWAY: Now, that's really interesting because those of us outside of medical culture would turn to you as the doctor. When I'm feeling stressed out or, you know, something's wrong, you go to the doctor and you're diagnosed. What is behind the inability or the unwillingness and perhaps again, that goes back into that stigma? You know, Doctor heal thyself, in some ways, is... is the phrase that gets tossed around. Theq assumption might be that doctors would take care of themselves. What's behind that inability to do that?

JILLIAN HORTON: Well, some of it is taking care of yourself is actually a skill. And I think we've seen one of the positive things in the pandemic is we've seen a lot more discussion around the concept of, you know, how to self-soothE, look after your own needs, identify your emotions. But in medical school, not only do we not train people to have more skills in that area, I mean, some programs do better. For example, Dr. Razmy in psychiatry probably spends a lot more time engaged in this kind of work than the average physician. But, you know, at the same time, a lot of our culture, I talked about repression of physiologic needs, and there's also a strong culture of repression, of emotional needs. So, you know, we have a lot of role modelling of when a person is becoming emotional because they're either distressed from the outcome of the case, or something is very difficult or they're just having a normal human reaction to facing tragedy in an emergency department or on a medical ward, you know, sometimes those physicians, especially during their formative years of training, are given this horrible advice, don't show emotion, don't cry, don't, you know, go there. And it's the worst possible recipe that you can imagine for fast-forward 20 years later for being an emotionally intelligent, emotionally attuned practitioner with good self-regulation.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Razmy, what do you know about that? About that that stigma that exists that would prevent physicians from speaking out or even seeking help for things like stress or burnout or depression?

AJMAL RAZMY: Yeah, all points Dr. Horton are well taken and very accurate. And I will definitely buy one of the first copies. [all chuckling] You know, I'm going to line up for that. I think that there's a couple of things there, Matt. Number one, physicians are actually not so bad in terms of taking care of their medical health. So if you look at the data, we're... we've seen enough disease and pathology to take care of our medical fitness and well-being. We're not so good in terms of our psychological well-being. We do a lousy job of promoting psychological PPE. And, I think, it's a grassroots issue. This is endemic to the very start right from the get-go when you're being interviewed in medicals... for medical school, you're you're asked about things that inevitably lead to you being vulnerable to having burnout. And it's important to understand burnout doesn't necessarily lead to suicide. But burnout is the royal road towards things like depression and anxiety, which then puts you at a much higher rate of completed suicide, unfortunately.

MATT GALLOWAY: Is there something about the system itself in terms of what the system demands? Strange to talk about productivity in the medical field, but in some ways, that's... you hear that from doctors as well, that the system itself is shaped so that there isn't the opportunity to take that breath. There isn't the opportunity to step back because of the demands that are put on you in that position. Is that fair to say, Dr. Razmy?

AJMAL RAZMY: Absolutely. I mean, if you look at the predictive factors on what can lead to burnout and, in fact, completed suicide, insomnia and lack of sleep and general quality sleep is a major predictor. And that's... that's kind of built into the system. If you look... burnout itself is a systems issue. Eighty per cent of burnout, it's... it's estimated, is from a systems issue. It's how organizations are built. And so our listeners might be saying, well, so what? Who isn't burnt out? But the reality is that physicians as a whole are twice more likely to be burnt out as a career than other... than other jobs.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Lim, right on the front lines, you would see so much of, you know, the sharp edge of this pandemic. And one of the things we've heard from physicians over the course of, you know, the last several months is around the issue of guilt, the idea that you can't save everyone. How does that factor into the stress of the current moment?

ROD LIM: Yeah, I think that's an excellent point, and from what I was reading with with Dr. Dion, I think guilt of not being able to go back to the front lines was... was also a contributing factor as well. Much like the physician in the States earlier on in the pandemic who had also taken her life. And back to that hero analogy that Dr. Horton had mentioned, you know, heroes don't ask for help. So, you know, I think that the combination of of the stigma and the lack of time and the lack of access, these are all just such an important factors. You know, guilt of being on the front lines with your... With your colleagues, trying to help the, you know, during the pandemic. These are all such important factors that... That play into this. And we just need to start having frank discussions around, you know, the way we perceive ourselves and willingness to ask for help. The CMA survey that was mentioned, you know, it showed that we were very willing to hear about a colleague who needed help. Four out of five of us would be extremely happy to help a colleague who was in distress. But that same survey also found that only one in five of us would actually ask help if.... if it was needed. So there's there's an obvious evidence of stigma right there.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Horton, Dr. Razmy use this phrase psychological PPE, which I think is really powerful. What do you want to see in terms of a shift of the culture to address doctors' mental health. And to Dr. Lim's point, be willing to have those, at the very least the conversation, but then move beyond the conversation to ensure that the stress and the burnout that doctors are facing, particularly in a moment like this, doesn't go beyond the edge?

JILLIAN HORTON: Um-hmm. Well, just as Dr. Razmy said, you know, we know from the literature on physician burnout that about 80 per cent of the issue is largely secondary to factors outside of our immediate control. And that tells us that in order to begin to meaningfully address those things, you know, our organizations and our leaders and the institutions where we work have to begin to make meaningful commitment to enacting the changes that would really impact, you know, not only the quality of our work environment, but begin to have that long term transformative impact on the culture. So some of those things include, you know, significant changes around things like call schedules, how long you actually expect people to work, how frequently you expect them to work, whether there are other people who can be doing some of the work that those physicians, for example, are typically doing. Sometimes that clerical work, sometimes it's, you know, simple things like writing prescriptions. We also need meaningful top-down conversations about the lived experience of physicians, you know, sharing our personal experiences with the difficulties that we've had during the course of our careers because that begins to impact the younger generations. And then I mentioned that, you know, there's this 20 per cent of things that are under our control. And for me personally, over the years, the most recent years, I have found it really helpful and actually quite impactful in my own life as a clinician to engage with very high-quality, evidence-based programs that allowed me to develop, you know, some different skills for working with some of the immediate stressors in the workplace environment.

MATT GALLOWAY: Skills like what?

JILLIAN HORTON: Skills like mindfulness, but again, clinically-oriented. So not a lunch-hour seminar taught by somebody with no connection to medicine, but a journey down to a program at a university that works specifically with physicians and teaches them to teach the skills to others. Connections with community, you know, an intimate part of that. So anything that we learn in isolation probably won't be impactful. We have a lot of programs in the literature that show that they help ease some of our distress and rebuild the fabric of our medical communities, get people talking. And there are a lot of programs like that. They'll exist under different names, but the same basic thing that they do is bring people together and begin to normalize some of our experiences in discussion.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Razmy, do you feel as though the resources are there to help physicians through this?

AJMAL RAZMY: They're getting there, I think, as a... this is a system solution that's needed, right? So I would encourage organizations, health care organizations across the country to consider appointing a chief wellness officers, having committees in place to address the issue of burnout, stress, depression within their constituents, and to make sure that it's... a it's a wholesome program and not just lip service to to wellness. And right now, I think the Candian medical Association has a wellness hub that you can reach out to, different provincial measures are in place, but we're still behind the ball.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr. Lim, just in the last minute or so that we have, how are you taking care of yourself in this?

ROD LIM: Well, I haven't had to spend... I've spent more time self-reflecting and really trying to... to... to be honest with myself, with how I'm doing more than any time in my career. I think, you know, we're... we're pretty built, hardened maybe through our training, but chronic stress our body is not very good at dealing with. And I think, you know, it's sometimes it's pretty disheartening when you read the news, and you see that a lot of the strife and the unity is gone. And, you know, people are not doing following public health measures, including people in power. It's hard not to get disheartened. And it's just so important to just kind of to... to find things that are going to fill your bucket up and allow you and your team to keep doing the work that you know is so important for the community and to... To look out for others and to actively make sure that we're all doing well as part of a team. So we're doing the best that we can. But this has been pretty tough.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to speak with you all about this. This is really important. And thanks for the work that you're doing. And take care of yourselves.

AJMAL RAZMY: Thank you.

ROD LIM: Thank you.

JILLIAN HORTON: Thanks so much, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Dr Rod Lim is director and section chief of Paediatric Emergency Department at the Children's Hospital in London at the London Health Sciences Centre. Dr Ajmal Razmy is a psychiatrist and head of service for Mental Health and Addictions at Joseph Brent Hospital in Burlington, Ontario. And Dr Julian Horton is a specialist in internal medicine and a medical educator in Winnipeg. And her memoir comes out this month. It's called, "We Are All Perfectly Fine". It's a memoir about burnout if you are experiencing mental distress. The Canada Suicide Prevention Service takes calls 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Their number is 1-833-4566-4566, again 1-833-4566-4566And tomorrow, we will talk about the perspective of this from nurses. That's coming up tomorrow on "The Current".

Canadian snowbird in Mexico calls new quarantine measures ‘punishment’

Guests: John Morgan, Kelley Lee

MATT GALLOWAY: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. And you're listening to "The Current".

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MATT GALLOWAY: Still to come, a military coup in Myanmar and what that means for the future of democracy in that country. But first, clearing customs just got a little more complicated.

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OMAR ALGHABRA: We're obviously very concerned about these variants. This is precisely why we've added these new measures to prevent against the spread of these variants, but also to send a strong message to Canadians who are thinking about travelling for vacation or nonessential travel to delay that for now. We are in a pandemic. We have these variants. So we're encouraging all Canadians to avoid any international movement that is unnecessary.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Transport Minister Omar Alghabra speaking about the new nonessential travel measures. Those measures include mandatory COVID tests at the airport. And travellers will have to wait for the results of those tests while quarantined in a hotel for three days, which could cost them thousands of dollars. Flights to many sun destinations are being suspended until the end of April. And there are some people who think these measures don't go far enough and didn't come into place soon enough. Others, though, think these measures go way too far. John Morgan is a Canadian. He's currently staying in Puerto Angel in Mexico. John, good morning.

JOHN MORGAN: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: I'm in a very wintry city. I haven't gone anywhere in a long time. So just briefly, make me jealous. What's it like where you are this morning?

JOHN MORGAN: Oh, it's about 32 degrees every day, all year long. And we're on the southern coast of Mexico, right on the Pacific. I'm sitting in my bedroom looking at the Pacific outside our window.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's about enough of that!

JOHN MORGAN: And it's sunny every day.

MATT GALLOWAY: I don't need... I don't need to know anymore. Thank you very much [John laughs]. Why did you go to Mexico?

JOHN MORGAN: I've been really sick, really ill for the last couple of years. And I've been working, but I suffer from chronic asthma. And over the year before the pandemic, I had pneumonia six times. So During the pandemic, starting in March, I was really stuck in my apartment in Toronto above Finch Station for several months. And I was getting so unhealthy. Less healthy because I was stuck at home, and I couldn't go outside because I'm at such high-risk because of my lungs.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

JOHN MORGAN: I couldn't go out. And I... and so, we eventually decided we had to come here to do something to get away from COVID and get away from an environment where I couldn't go outside.

MATT GALLOWAY: For months, the prime minister and other health officials from various levels of government have asked Canadians, essentially told Canadians, not to travel, don't travel unless you absolutely have to, stay home, don't travel. Why, in the face of that, did you decide that you would go?

JOHN MORGAN: Well, we left in mid-September, and at that point, there weren't as many travel restrictions. And we felt that I was gaining weight, but I was... I ended up having to go to the hospital in August because I had a bad outbreak of my breathing. And I needed to get out. and so, it was really necessary for me. It wasn't really non-essential travel. And I was careful going to the airport, but it was... it was safer doing that than staying at home. And then I would have been stuck again for months on end if we had stayed at home.

MATT GALLOWAY: But you can imagine people listening, saying, even in September, I mean, those travel warnings had been on websites and been spoken about by the government for months before. They were still in place. I mean, it's not as though they weren't in place. Maybe things had had eased up a little bit in terms of how people were getting around and what have you? But the... you know, the guidance we still don't travel. In the face of that, you could imagine there are people who are saying he thinks the rules don't apply to him. When you hear that, what would you say back?

JOHN MORGAN: You know, I had to make the decision about being... getting unhealthier and unhealthier during the pandemic. And I had to make a decision. And then, we've been down here for four months, and then we may have to be, you know, several more months until the restrictions are lifted. And like a lot of other sunbirds, you know, people leave in order to to be in a healthier environment. And I just wasn't able to go outside ever because of my fear of the pandemic.

MATT GALLOWAY: Given those new restrictions, I mean, I know that you were supposed to come back in December.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: What is your plan now? I mean, when are you going to be able to get back to Canada?

JOHN MORGAN: We are coming... originally planning to come back in December. And in December, the Canadian airlines cancelled a lot of flights. And so we said we would stay until the beginning of March, and that flight's have been cancelled. And so we're now thinking we're going to wait out the restrictions and wait until at least the beginning of May. Somewhere, you know, between the beginning of May, beginning of June. Hopefully, the will be more flights and it'll be easier for us. And normally, it seemed last year the pandemic went down a lot in May as well. I think by the 1st of June, it'll be easier to get around to Toronto after that date.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you make of the restrictions that... that were announced last week, the restrictions that, I mean, cancelled flights like the one that you were going to bring back?

JOHN MORGAN: Yeah.

MATT GALLOWAY: But also, if you come back, you need to take this test and there's a quarantine. But part of that quarantine is you're going to be spending it in a hotel for three days at your own expense. What did you make of those restrictions?

JOHN MORGAN: [clears throat] Sorry, I think that the prime minister had to do it. I think the prime minister, unfortunately, has not done as well with the vaccines, bringing them into the country. He needs a political win. So this was a political move. It is going to stop spring breakers from going because spring breakers are not going to want to, you know, college students or young families, you know, aren't going to want to go away in March. And that was what was attemptedly stopped. But I think that it maybe doesn't recognize that there are people who are travelling for more essential reasons. People who, you know, people like myself, who... you know, and a lot of older folks, maybe in Florida, they're not necessarily... they're the ones most susceptible to the virus. So they're likely the ones who are going to actually follow the quarantine. I had to quarantine for several months before. So it's not like I'm not going to go. They're doing this to prevent people from cheating on the quarantine. And I'm not going to cheat on the quarantine. And, you know, so it really is more of a punishment for someone like myself who's been away since long, long before.

MATT GALLOWAY: One of the reasons why these rules were put in place now is because of these new variants of COVID that are spreading like wildfire.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: And, I mean, with yourself, somebody who, as you say, you stayed in your place because when you're here in Toronto, and in Canada, because you were afraid that you might catch COVID if you went out.

JOHN MORGAN: Correct.

MATT GALLOWAY: Those rules were put in place in part to protect people like yourself.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: I don't know if you see -- well --

JOHN MORGAN: Sorry, go ahead.

MATT GALLOWAY: I just don't know whether you've seen, I mean, on, you know, social media and phone-in shows, there doesn't seem to be a lot of sympathy for people who have left the country, so-called snowbirds, from people who are here, who are hunkering down at home. I just wonder what you make of that reaction from Canadians who are stuck here?

JOHN MORGAN: And maybe they're right, rightly so. We've been talking with family and friends, and they're stuck, and they're really in a tough spot. I know it's really difficult being stuck at home, but we're not going to come back until it's safe to come back. And when we do come back, we'll double-mask and, you know, I went to the airport with five pairs of gloves on, taking a glove off every time I touched something just in order to be careful. And so we're not going to come back until it's a time when it's safe. And right here, right we are right now, in this large part of Mexico, there are only about 100 active cases. And so there is very little COVID here. So it's not like we're going to be bringing it here. They're much more afraid of the gringos coming down.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right.

JOHN MORGAN: And bringing it from Canada. We're not going to bring it back from Mexico.

MATT GALLOWAY: Strange question to ask somebody who's in whether that's 32 degrees. But do you have any regrets about travelling, given the fact that you're stuck there now for longer than perhaps you anticipated?

JOHN MORGAN: [sigh] We wanted to be home for Christmas. You know, you don't want to be gone for that long, and we really miss family. You know, I miss family so much. And, you know, look, I listen to the radio. I listen to you every day, and it makes me homesick. And I miss home, but I'm walking every day. I'm walking one or two hours every day. And I'm, you know, walking up mountains, and I'm getting healthy. My lungs are strong, and I'm losing weight. And I've been doing things I wasn't able to do in Toronto. So all of my family members are all saying stay, stay, stay, be healthy. And so I.. I miss everybody like crazy. I missed Christmas, and I'm missing birthdays and things like that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right.

JOHN MORGAN: But... but I'm getting healthy in ways that I couldn't get when I was living in Toronto, particularly during the lockdown.

MATT GALLOWAY: John, it's good to speak with you. Take care of yourself, and thank you.

JOHN MORGAN: Take care.

MATT GALLOWAY: John Morgan is retired. He and his wife are staying and Puerto Angel, in Mexico. That's the view from Mexico. In British Columbia, things look a little different. Kelley Lee is a professor of Global Health Policy, Canada research chair in global health governance at Simon Fraser University. And she's been listening in. Kelley, good morning to you.

KELLEY LEE: Good morning, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: What do you make of what you just heard from John Morgan there?

KELLEY LEE: Yes, I mean, it's important to hear from people like John. There's lots of reasons why people travel. Lots of individual stories. And nobody wants to, you know, prevent people like John doing what they normally do. It sounds like he's, you know, he's in a better situation. But I have no doubt that $2000 is going to have a financial impact on a lot of people. But, to be blunt, the new measures were designed to do that. They were supposed to sting people in the wallet and make it really inconvenient for people to travel abroad. That was the part of the purpose, really. And this is because, as you you describe, the government has strongly advise people not to travel for nonessential reasons outside the country.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right.

KELLEY LEE: And I... and we know that the government couldn't prohibit, but they could send a clear message. So this is really, you know, trying to, I guess, punish some people, but also to be a deterrent, because spring break is coming up, and the government does not want people to travel abroad.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well, I mean, this has gone on for a long time. People have been stuck in their places, not travelling for... for many, many months. Winter's here. You can imagine that everybody's trying to figure out some justification as to why they should be allowed to go or why they would be better somewhere else. Do you think that what was announced last week will that make for effective travel restrictions? Is it actually going to prevent people from travelling?

KELLEY LEE: Well, it will for some people. It's a start. I... I am concerned that it doesn't go far enough.

MATT GALLOWAY: Yeah.

KELLEY LEE: There's still people I'm hearing who are saying, well, we'll just, you know, switch our vacation destinations and so on.

MATT GALLOWAY: And go to Arizona or in Florida.

KELLEY LEE: Or Hawaii.

MATT GALLOWAY: Or Hawaii.

KELLEY LEE: Yes, exactly.

KELLEY LEE: And so, you know, I just imagine a lot of quick, quick swapping around. But I think, you know, really the government needs to look at this as from a global perspective. These new variants are circulating globally. We don't know where they are. There's... there's now five known new variants. And Hong Kong, for example, had a recent case from South Korea. And South Korea was not on its list of, you know, banned travel sources. So it's... it's hard to to guess. And so these variants can come in from anywhere. And that's the problem. I mean, the other aspect, Matt, is that, you know, how this gauntlet of testing and quarantine, which the government has announced, goes some way to reducing the risk. But it doesn't take it away because we all know tests can give false negatives, and positive cases can appear after 14 days. We're also still relying on an honour system after the three days if you test negative. So there's... there's still things like that... that, you know, there's holes in the system still that need to be tightened up.

MATT GALLOWAY: Should we have taken the approach similar to Australia where it's you're in quarantine in a hotel not for three days, but for 14 days? Or is that... is that too late now?

KELLEY LEE: Well, I would prefer that because it's simpler, and it's also safer. So if you have cases coming later on, you know, after the three days, and that does happen, of course, and... and it didn't turn up on your test, then, you know that these people are safely tucked away in these... these quarantine hotels. Australia, Taiwan, other countries, South Korea, you know, all the countries that have done very well, have really controlled the number of people coming in and also the conditions under which they are screen-tested and quarantined. So we've been slow, very slow off the mark. And as we know, we have the new variants in this country now. So, you know, we really didn't prevent them from coming in.

MATT GALLOWAY: Given the fact that those variants are already here, people have said that the focus, yes, should be on international borders, but really it also needs to be on internal travel within the country. There's been pressure on the BC government, for example, to bring in interprovincial travel restrictions. Eighteen cases linked to the new variants have been identified in that province thus far. In Ontario, there are calls from the northern part of the province to restrict travel from the south, so that areas that haven't been hit hard by COVID aren't going to be hit by hard by COVID. Is it too late to do something like that, to restrict interprovincial travel or travel even within provinces?

KELLEY LEE: It may well be. I was arguing two weeks ago that these measures had to be put in place and... and they had to be done within the week. So we're past that that window of opportunity.

MATT GALLOWAY: And what.. what would that look like? I mean, putting up, like, roadblocks into, you know, so you can't travel... [Kelley chuckles] It's easier with an Atlantic bubble if you're heading to PEI or Newfoundland.

KELLEY LEE: Yes.

MATT GALLOWAY: But I mean, if you're going into British Columbia, are you going to have roadblocks so that people can't get into BC or that if they're in BC, they can't go up the Sea-to-Sky Highway up to Whistler?

KELLEY LEE: That's not... never what we were arguing, because, of course, logistically, that's very challenging. Although some areas, as you say, have been doing that. The idea is, again, use that deterrent. So require people to quarantine when they go into a different province, for example, put surcharges, put, you know, cost on the traveller. So that would actually be a disincentive for people to travel across provinces and make it safer as well. So those things could have been put in place quite as soon as we heard about these new variants, which is in mid-December, but no action was taken, and in came the viruses. So it's still not too late. I mean, I'm really concerned every time I look at the numbers that they're going up and up because they are a game-changer, as we know. So, you know, some provinces who do not have cases yet, there's still an opportunity to restrict... restrict them coming in.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's your understanding as to why governments would be reluctant to do something like this? If, as you say, you've been calling it forward for a couple of weeks, but the variants arrived here in December. Why would governments be reluctant to do this?

KELLEY LEE: Well, there's a couple of reasons. I mean, they have a very difficult task of balancing a lot of different interest groups. The economic impact of using travel measures, travel restrictions is enormous. And so, of course, governments are hesitant. They want to wait to see if they're worth putting in place. But in this case, you know, it's about a preventive measure. So... so that's one of the problems. The other is that we don't collect enough data. So we are assuming that travellers only account for a very small percentage of the total number of cases. But that's actually a wrong way to look at it because every... every case of a new variant actually is like a seeding of a potentially large outbreak. So the risk is actually disproportionate to the numbers. So you have to look at it that way. It's sort of like a forest fire and there's little sparks happening. You have to really get on top of those sparks so they don't cause a bigger fire. And so, you know, but they're waiting to see, they're saying, well, Premier Horgan said, you know, I'm going to wait and see if there's a significant impact of these travellers, and then I'll do something. Well, by that time, it's too late. And I think governments tend to be only be able to justify their actions, you know, if something happens first. And in this case, that that would be the wrong way to look at it.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so given where we are now, what would you like to see happen now from both federal and provincial governments?

KELLEY LEE: Well, we want to see, you know, very, very much a tightening up. So the way I describe it is you're building a house, and it happens to be in a swampy area, and you want to keep the mosquitoes out. You want to put screens up on your doors and windows. But there's no point putting them on the front door and leaving the back door unscreened or leaving some of the windows unscreened. So you want to put the screens up on all your windows, all your doors, but you also have to have the screen the right size. So if you have the mosquitoes, you know, sneaking in through the little holes in the screen, that's no point either.

MATT GALLOWAY: Right.

KELLEY LEE: And I think that's a good analogy, because what we're doing is we're not putting enough screens up, and the size of the screens are not right. So tightening up the measures, making sure that every person that comes in, if they do have the virus, we'll find out, and we'll quarantine them until they're safe. And we're still not really doing that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kelley, good to speak with you about this. Thank you very much.

KELLEY LEE: Thanks, Matt.

MATT GALLOWAY: Kelley Lee is a professor of global health policy, and a Canada research chair in global health governance at Simon Fraser University. Your thoughts welcome on that, and on the lots of so-called snowbirds who find themselves out of the country and out of the country perhaps for much longer now, given the new restrictions on international travel. You can reach us through the email: thecurrent@cbc.ca. This is "The Current" on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. Speaking of email, yesterday on the program we heard about surgical waitinglists. In some provinces, thousands of non-urgent surgeries have been postponed or cancelled, patients left in limbo. We've got a lot of mail on this, with stories of long waits for procedures. And so we're joined in studio by "The Current's" senior producer Karin Marley. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY Good morning. We'll start with Cathy Cable in Winnipeg. And she writes, My husband is waiting for cardiac surgery. Our journey began last July, when he was not feeling well. After visits to our family doctor, tests, referrals to a cardiologist, more tests and more waiting. He became a client of the St. Boniface Cardiac Clinic. We've been on their waitinglist since November. It has been very stressful for Doug and all who care about him. Every Friday, they decide who gets surgery the following week. I'm not a fan of this way of scheduling. I would rather have a date. We think we are an emergency, as does everyone else in our situation. We will keep our fingers crossed that next Friday, we will be on the call list. Living like this sucks.

MATT GALLOWAY: This letter came from Irene Goebal in Grand Prairie. I have occipital neuralgia. I have a headache 24 hours a day, seven days a week. On my good days, pain is nine out of ten, which is fifty per cent of the time. On the bad days, the pain is 11 out of ten. This has severely affected every aspect of my body and my life. I'm housebound. Pain killers do not work. I've tried every kind of treatment. Nothing works. Surgery on the occipital nerves and the back of my head would get rid of the pain, and would be a cure. I've been on the waitinglist to see a surgeon in Edmonton since March of 2020. Before COVID, I should have had my first appointment with the surgeon anywhere from June to September. Of course, this was delayed, contacted the surgeon's office two weeks ago. They have no idea when I can see them. Now, I just sit here and wait. It is hard having delays knowing that a cure is within reach, but I can't have it. The question is when?

KARIN MARLEY Barbara Waltz writes, My brother had a heart attack in April 2020, although he was airlifted to Victoria in time to save him with emergency surgery, his doctor said that he still has severe blockages requiring another operation. When he was discharged in May, his surgeon said he would be seeing them in two months to perform the second surgery. After nine months, he still has not received so much as a surgery date, and feels like he is a ticking time bomb. I wish the government would get private clinics working to catch up on the backlog before patients die waiting. Or better yet, hire more staff to utilize OR rooms that sit empty. Part of the day.

MATT GALLOWAY: Robert Watson sent this letter. I'm a 55 year old paraplegic, only ambulatory with forearm crutches. I live alone, and have a minimal support network. I'm extremely athletic, and put a lot of stress on my shoulders, wrists and all muscle groups in my arms. On the 17th of March, 2020, I had a fall and tore multiple ligaments on my right shoulder as well as the labrum. It is very painful. I was told that I required surgery, was put on the list at Penticton Regional Hospital, received a letter in December saying I was in the surgical queue, could expect the surgery in 38 to 53 weeks. I have no idea how the hospital prioritized my surgery, but 20 months just doesn't sound reasonable for an already mobility-challenged individual. I continue to struggle with my self care. And quite frankly, it's taking a toll on my mental health.

KARIN MARLEY And finally, this note from Shannon O'Connor, who writes, I finally got my spine surgery on January 5th. It had been cancelled twice already, which is really stressful, as each time, I had to prepare on short notice to leave work for six weeks. And then, at the last minute, it was cancelled. While waiting for my surgery, I had to be very careful to not aggravate the nerve pain in my arms as it would be fairly severe and difficult to bring under control. I've lost a lot of upper body strength, and my overall quality of life suffered. As my surgery date approached, the case count was climbing quickly, and I was always worried that they would cancel it again. I feel grateful to have received my surgery. I think I was lucky as I don't think I have any lasting nerve damage from the delay. The staff at the hospital were fabulous. And I'm so thankful to them for being there during all of this.

MATT GALLOWAY: These are hard stories to hear, but important in part because this is about the effects of the pandemic that perhaps weren't considered initially. And now, are very, very real for the people who wrote in. Thank you all for writing, and I wish you all the best. Karin, thank you.

KARIN MARLEY You're welcome.

MATT GALLOWAY: Karin Marley, senior producer of "The Current". And again, we'd love to hear from you. We heard from a number of doctors and nurses as well, people who were talking about procedures to perhaps alleviate some of the backlogs here. If you'd like to get in touch, you can reach us and comment on anything you hear on this program. The email is: theCurrent@cbc.ca. You can tweet us: @TheCurrentCBC. You can find us on Facebook as well. We are: CBC The Current. Your regional update is next. And then,.

MAN: [Speaking: Burmese]

TRANSLATOR: In order to perform scrutiny on the voter lists and take actions, the authority of the nation's lawmaking, governance and jurisdiction is handed over to the commander in chief.

MATT GALLOWAY: Myanmar's military seizes power again. We will find out what that might mean for the people who live there. We will find out what it means for Aung San Suu Kyi, the once heralded, now detained leader of Myanmar, and for the Rohingya minority in that country, the subject of so much attention internationally, certainly in the last several years. As well, we'll turn our attention to Russia. Wild situation there. Protests on the streets... protesting the detention of Alexei Navalny, in some ways, the political arch enemy of Vladimir Putin. Chris Brown is our reporter in Russia, and he will join us to talk about the situation there. And why so many people are out on the streets facing so much danger. That's on its way. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current". We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

Military coup in Myanmar, and what might happen next; and protests rock Russia over arrest of opposition leader Alexei Navalny

Guests: Ben Dunant, Champa Patel, Chris Brown

MATT GALLOWAY: Hello, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to "The Current".

[A loud call and response chant]

MATT GALLOWAY: The sounds of people, including monks, in the streets of Yangon in Myanmar, just hours after military coup. Citizens are divided as democratic leader Aung San Suu Kyi, and other government leaders were detained, and the military took control. Those voices we just heard were chanting for the good health of General Min Aung Hlaing, the commander of the armed forces in Myanmar. Many others in Myanmar and around the world, though, are decrying the takeover. Ben Dunant is the managing editor of Frontier magazine in Myanmar. He is in Yangon. Ben, hello.

BEN DUNANT: Hello. It's nice to be here.

MATT GALLOWAY: It's great to have you here. Just describe the scene in Myanmar today? What are you seeing out on the streets right now?

BEN DUNANT: You did allude to some pro-military protests. However, I would say that they represent a very slim portion of the population, and if you want proof of that, you only have to look at the results of the recent election in which the ruling party, the party of the government, has just being ousted, won an extremely emphatic victory. But I would say that although the situation is overall very calm, life is continuing as usual in the biggest city, Yangon, where I am now, and seemingly all over the country. There is a looming campaign of civil disobedience. The doctors in the several government hospitals have said that they're going to go on strike. They are not going to go to work every morning, which, of course, is quite concerning during the COVID-19 pandemic. Really should concern the new military government. And this will likely spread to other sectors of government. And so far, the military crackdown has been quite restrained. It's just a few senior government leaders who are being rounded up and a few prominent activists. And this is largely.... and there's not been a lot of military on the streets, really, and this is because there's not been a lot of opposition on the streets to the coup. But, you know, it looks like that will change because, you know, there is a civil disobedience campaign which will probably start tomorrow.

MATT GALLOWAY: When this first started, I mean, when the military began to take control, how were people responding? Were people outraged and surprised? Or, as you say, I mean, it's almost life not back to normal, but things seem relatively calm. Were people fairly calm as this was unfolding, initially?

BEN DUNANT: There was a lot of outrage, but that was largely expressed on Facebook. You know, which is a huge popular platform in the country. And there was no evidence of it on the streets. I mean, I think that there is a lot of fear of the military. The military have taken power and ruled the country for very large portions of its modern history. And they're known to be extremely brutal when, you know, when they are taking power. There was a huge uprising in 1988 in which the military literally shot down hundreds of thousands of protesters on the streets. And this is recent history, and that is probably foremost in people's minds when they're thinking about whether they should go out onto the streets to protest?

MATT GALLOWAY: I mentioned that Aung San Suu Kyi had been taken by the military. There are calls from her party on Facebook, as you mentioned, calling for her release and the release of other politicians. What do we know about the situation of those who have been detained?

BEN DUNANT: Quite a few of them have been returned home, they're under conditions of house arrest, although it is a little bit vague. A lot of the new MPs, I mean, it's important to say that the coup was launched yesterday morning on the morning that the new parliament was set to convene. You know, so all the MPs won seats in the recent election. The situation with Aung San Suu Kyi is, I understand she is under house arrest. I heard unconfirmed reports about that.

MATT GALLOWAY: How is she seen in the country right now? I mean, internationally, she has had this reputation that has been celebrated, and then tarnished, I think, in many people's eyes over the last few years. But in Myanmar itself, how is she seen?

BEN DUNANT: She is immensely popular among the overwhelming majority of people. I mean, there's quite a stark split between her reputation internationally and how she's seen here inside the country. For instance, when she went to go and represent the country in the recent Rohingya genocide trial at the International Court of Justice in The Hague, you know, that obviously generated a lot of astonishment internationally. But that was a hugely popular move inside the country, you know? Like, there were rallies in support of her going to the court. And, you know, if anything, she's more popular than ever. And a very strong proof of that is the recent election in November in which her party, which is largely synonymous with her, won the election by an extraordinary margin. They won more than 80 per cent of the available seats.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so what does that tell you then about how careful the military will be in... in what happens with her in the midst of this coup?

BEN DUNANT: She spent a very long period under house arrest under the previous military regime. She was, like, not thrown in the general prison like so many other members of her party. And this was, you know, an acknowledgment of the fact that she was the daughter of the country's independence hero. She is such an immensely popular figure. So, she will certainly be looked after and... but, you know, her freedom will be hugely constrained. The military says that they're going to hold a new election at some point. If Aung San Suu Kyi is allowed to take part, or if her political party is, they are almost certain to win. So I think the big question is, you know, when this new election does happen, what kind of impediments, like, will be put on her and her party?

MATT GALLOWAY: Just before I let you go, what are you going to be watching for in the coming days? It seems, as you describe it, surprisingly calm just in the wake of a coup. So what will you be watching for?

BEN DUNANT: I think where the campaign of civil disobedience goes, like whether it does run over into street protests, I mean, the NLD has not issued a very direct call for and a mass mobilization against the coup, but it could still do that. Its ability to mobilize people would be very strong, despite the fear that people would have about confronting the military on the streets. So that will really be one to watch.

MATT GALLOWAY: Ben, it's good to speak with you. I appreciate your time this morning. Stay safe. Thank you.

BEN DUNANT: Thank you very much. Goodbye.

MATT GALLOWAY: Ben Dunant is the managing editor of the Frontier magazine in Myanmar. He was in Yangon. Canada's ambassador to the United Nations, Bob Rae, spoke with Carol Off last night on "As It Happens". Bob Rae is also this country's former special envoy to Myanmar. And here's what he had to say about Aung San Suu Kyi and what responsibility Canada has following Monday's coup.

BOB RAE: She has been elected as the leader of their parliament. She should be allowed to govern their country properly based on any reasonable sense of what a constitutional democracy is all about. That doesn't mean we agree with her or we like the way in which she's treated the Rohingya and other minorities. What we're saying is that the military is frankly much more dangerous. There are still several hundred thousand Rohingya people that are left. They're very vulnerable to the army. There are many other minority groups that are in conflict with the army. I think Canada, the first thing we have to do is work with others because alone, we can only do so much. But working with others, we can be effective. And I think we've been effective in the last while. And, you know, moving forward on the accountability issues, moving forward on getting the spotlight onto this very corrupt regime run by the generals. And I think we just have to keep up that pressure. The reason that I'm not completely pessimistic is I don't believe that this is going to stand. I don't believe that, you know, the situation is frozen in time and that everybody's going to go back to living in total repression under these generals. I think there'll be a much stronger global reaction. and I think there'll be a stronger domestic reaction.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Bob Rae speaking with Carol Off last night on "As It Happens". Champa Patel is director of Asia Pacific for Chatham House. It's an international affairs think tank. She's in London. Champa, good morning to you.

CHAMPA PATEL: Good morning.

MATT GALLOWAY: Are you surprised that this coup happened in Myanmar? And are you surprised, as... as Ben was describing it, that things seem as calm as, apparently, they do right now?

CHAMPA PATEL: I think people who've been watching the country would not be surprised. There were some signs of this. You know, last week, Western diplomats jointly authored a statement which said they were worried about some of the noises that they were hearing about the military taking action. So I think in that respect, it's not surprising, given that they'd had such losses at the November 2020 election, that the insecurity kind of manifested in this way. I think the calm, as Ben was saying, is the people are gathering themselves. They're trying to think through what can they do to change the situation? But it's challenging because also, as you mentioned previously, when people have protested the level of repression that they faced, you know, it's bloody to protest in Myanmar. So I think there's a lot of fear of what the military would do if they were to take to the streets.

MATT GALLOWAY: There were democratic elections in Myanmar. But I've heard Myanmar described in some ways as a shadow democracy. What does that mean?

CHAMPA PATEL: I think when people call it a shadow or shallow democracy, it's that the democratization process is not really full in the sense that there are many major ethnic groups within the country that are disenfranchised. So, for example, the Rohingya. How can you have a large ethnic group like that who are not even able to claim citizenship, who aren't able to vote in elections? And it's interesting because in arguments, you know, as Bob Rae was saying is that, you know, these elections, whatever we think of anything Aung San Suu Kyi, she should be put back in power because it was a process that was followed. But none of the Rohingya were allowed to vote in those elections, and there were other ethnic groups disenfranchised as well. So I think it's a shallow democracy in the sense that it isn't extended to all of the citizens and all of the people within the country. It's still very much a majoritarian approach that focuses on the Burma Buddhists.

MATT GALLOWAY: Let me ask you about Aung San Suu Kyi, Nobel Peace Prize recipient, celebrated around the world, now shunned in many ways, accused of turning a blind eye, at the very least, to ethnic cleansing of the Rohingya minority there. The assumption for many people was that in some ways, she had done that to appease the military, that... that had still such control in Myanmar. Is that fair to say? And where does it leave her internationally in terms of international support for the democracy that seems to have been derailed by the coup, but also internally?

CHAMPA PATEL: I think it's one of the factors that came into play. But I think people also forget, you know, the father created the Tatmadaw, the modern Myanmar military. So as she has grown up in a culture, the privileges, the Burma Buddhist majority, she has grown up in a culture that has perceived certain ethnic groups as outsiders, as foreigners, you know, or as the enemies within that are a threat to the Buddhist majority, Buddhist majoritarianism. So I think in a way, part of it may have been, her calculation may have been, I need to do this to keep the military inside. But it's also part of the culture that she grew up in. And because of her own conditions around house arrest and detention, you know, the Rohingya were not really part of that debate. So nobody really knew where she stood on those issues. So I think the damage that's been done to her international standing is irreparable. It will be very difficult for people to now see her in the way that they used to see her before. But a democratic process did take place in the country. And I think, you know, Western capitals are in this really strange situation now where on the one hand, they're very critical of her and what she's done. And by no means can we say this was a free and fair election when groups like the Rohingya can't even vote. But, at the same time, you know, a process was followed. It should be respected. She should be back in power because that was the will of the people within the country.

MATT GALLOWAY: And so people wonder what outside powers might have influence in the situation now in Myanmar? There is a new U.S. President. Could the United States have any influence on what has unfold in the last couple of days?

CHAMPA PATEL: I think one thing that's interesting and a little bit disappointing is the how much Myanmar is being seen through the prism of U.S.-China relations. So this idea that the Biden administration has come out... has talked about sanctions and a very strong way, and then they're looking to see who else is going to support this. But this doesn't seem to be about the situation in the country. In my view, if you look at which countries have influence on both the military and Aung San Suu Kyi, that can speak to both sides of this and hopefully bring, you know, bring some kind of resolution. Then Japan is the country that has positive relations with both the military and Aung San Suu Kyi. They've had a relationship with the military going back decades. So when we look at it through the lens of what the U.S. can do or what can China do, the U.S. has limited leverage in the country. It can impose sanctions, but sanctions are already in place, and they didn't stop the military mounting a coup. So I think it's questionable to what degree those sanctions will really change the situation on the ground. But what it could do is push the military closer to China because it'll be economically impacted by Western capitals who impose sanctions. Now, you know, is that what the U.S. would want for the military to be pushed closer to China? Because right now, the military regime is cautious about China. They don't want to be too close to China. And I think if you took a step back and thought who is it who could speak to both parties behind the scenes, they're never going to do so publicly, and I would focus more on the role of countries like Japan.

MATT GALLOWAY: The military has said that they plan to hold an election in a year. Do you think that the people of Myanmar would be willing to accept the military retaking control or electing a military leader? Again, Ben was saying that if Aung San Suu Kyi or her party were allowed to run, that they would win in a landslide.

CHAMPA PATEL: Yeah, I agree with him. I think, you know, if you can't prove election fraud in the November 2020 elections, why would a military-run election be any different? And there are no guarantees that they would respect that because they don't respect the November 2020 election. I think, though, we should see they see this election as a chance to maybe tweak the constitution, cement their power further, make sure that they, you know, kind of they can't be marginalized or ostracized. So I see this as preservation of power. Can they construct an election, quote/unquote, that allows them to make tweaks that allow them to cement their power? But then the question is, is the NLD going to take part in an election like that? For them, they may choose to boycott it. So I think we've yet to see how this may play out, but I think an election process is a way for them to save face, but also a way for them to think through, oK, what can we put in place during this process that can kind of strengthen our position? Because to me, this is an irrational exercise. This is them feeling power ebbing away and taking these very extreme measures to try and make sure that they're still relevant and that they're still influential.

MATT GALLOWAY: Just before I let you go, Bob Rae was saying that he didn't think Myanmar would return to a state of total repression. The belief often is that when populations get a taste of democracy, even if that democratic process is corrupted in some way, that that taste is enough to ensure that there is a fight to maintain some semblance of democracy. Do you believe that?

CHAMPA PATEL: Yeah, the country is very different to how it was in when the first coup happened. In the sense that, you know, there's much greater Internet penetration, there's greater social media usage in the country. There's a generation of people that have experienced democratic freedoms. So I don't think it's going to be as easy to just go back to a military junta. I think there will be a lot of organizing. We've yet to see how that will play out. But I can't imagine that the same conditions that existed back then that made it easy to impose military rule exists now.

MATT GALLOWAY: Champa, good to speak with you about this. I really appreciate your insight. Thank you.

CHAMPA PATEL: Thank you.

MATT GALLOWAY: Champa Patel, director of Asia Pacific for Chatham House. It's an international affairs think tank. And she was in London. Another country thrown into turmoil in the past couple of weeks is Russia.

[Lots of chanting and yelling]

MATT GALLOWAY: The sound of protests on the streets of Russia. Over the past two weekends, more than 100,000 people in cities across Russia have taken to the street to protest the arrest of Alexei Navalny, the Kremlin's most vocal critic. Almost 6,000 people were arrested thus far. Hundreds of people arrested today. The anger of protesters likely to intensify as Alexei Navalny faces sentencing today. Chris Brown is the CBC's Moscow correspondent. He's on the streets of Moscow. Chris, hello to you.

CHRIS BROWN: Hey, Matt, good to be here.

MATT GALLOWAY: Great to have you. Describe what you're seeing on the streets of that city right now?

CHRIS BROWN: Well, you know, I was just returned from a metro station. And, you know, it's really hard in Canadian terms just to imagine what a city it's been turned into a fortress looks like. But this is the second time in 72 hours that I have seen not just hundreds but thousands of police, National Guard, riot squad officers all out, all marching in military formations, all with black helmets and batons, really just forming phalanxes around metro stations, around courthouses, around any building where they think there might be protests. And today, about two blocks from the courthouse where Alexei Navalny was, was a metro station. And my cameraman, Dima and I were just stood there, and we watched people coming up from the steps, from below, and who knows where they were going. But if they were young, and they didn't have documents on them that sort of said, you know, I work in this building, they were literally taken off the street and thrown into police vans.

MATT GALLOWAY: Wow!

CHRIS BROWN: That is how sensitive and what they're doing here to try to basically scare people into staying away from any kind of protest. I mean, it's one thing on the weekend, it's bad enough, I should say, on the weekend to be marching in a protest. You're clearly part of a political movement there. But this was just people just on their way to work in some cases, I thought.

MATT GALLOWAY: We saw these extraordinary scenes on the weekend of the protests and of the crackdown of those who were out protesting. Why is it that so many people are out on the streets protesting now? What is it... what is it that's driven them out onto the streets now?

CHRIS BROWN: Well, Alexei Navalny has always been a figure who's been opposed to Vladimir Putin. He made his name over the last decade or so as an anti-corruption crusader. The Kremlin likes to derogatorily refer to him as a blogger because that's how he kind of got his start. He was a lawyer and kind of fell into sort of digging up, if you will, corruption within the city of Moscow government and then state governors and then eventually the Kremlin itself. So Navalny has had political aspirations for a long time and he's had a following. But what has really been the turning point, what's been pivotal, is that he did not die after he.... after the attempted assassination attempt. He recovered in Germany, and he has defied the Kremlin's every order to stay away. You know, we saw this dramatic scene where they even diverted his aircraft at the last minute and sent it to a different airport just to prevent him from meeting people when he landed in Russia. They did not want him to have even a foot on this soil as a free man. And so this sense of lawlessness, I think, has really motivated. A lot of people who weren't Navalny supporters to kind of get behind him. And that's at least that's what people have told me when I've asked them out in the streets.

MATT GALLOWAY: You mentioned people being, you know, scooped up and bundled into police vans. What are those who are protesting risking by being out there?

CHRIS BROWN: Well, we've already seen teachers fired from their schools, we've seen university professors fired, we've seen different companies sending orders out to their employees, some of the largest retailers in Russia telling their employees not to go. So they're really risking their livelihoods if they're... if they're seen to be a part of this. I can't overstate the propaganda barrage that the Kremlin has done. The that the hatred really has been overwhelming. And what's so striking is that there was no mention of Alexei Navalny on any state media ever. Like, his name was verboten. I mean, they they went to these outrageous contortions to refer to him as the Berlin patient. That person who you are referring to, they wouldn't even say his name. And now, what we're seeing on state TV is like hour-long documentaries vilifying this man. So it just speaks to the... to the shift and to the intensity of, as I say, the hatred that many people at the highest levels of this government now have towards Navalny.

MATT GALLOWAY: But there... there have been opposition figures, you know, in Putin's time in past. What is it that they are so spooked by? I mean, why... why does he create that sense of fear within... within not just Vladimir Putin, but within the Kremlin itself?

CHRIS BROWN: It's a combination of of both Navalny and also the time that Russia is in. I mean, we've seen incomes falling. Just today, I think they said real incomes fell by ten per cent over last year. That's a huge drop here. And inflation is up as well. The coronavirus pandemic has ravaged this country with 180-some-odd-thousand deaths. So there's a lot of... a lot of anger just over these issues. And then you have this... this rising sense of injustice that the people have felt. Some experts that I've talked to have called it like a rising civil society movement where... where people are getting angry about their lack of political freedoms or their freedoms being manipulated. The candidates they want can't run for the political office that they want, or they're being blocked if they're trying to fight for better environmental conditions and so forth. And I think... I think the Kremlin has been unable to adapt to this change in society. And it's been largely driven by.. by young people, people, you know, when I say young, I mean under 40 for sure, but certainly, under 20 and under 30. And the only response really, I would say in the last two years that we've seen them be able to make is to send out the tactical squads. There's no engagement. There's no... there's no ability to change and adapt, at least not in any meaningful way. And so you end up with these responses that are just heavy-handed and in many cases brutal.

MATT GALLOWAY: And in the face of this, Alexei Navalny supporters released this documentary about Putin's palace, this multibillion-dollar resort in the Black Sea with hidden underground tunnels and lavish ballrooms and spectacular beds and what have you. How does that strike the Russian populace, given what you've just described in terms of the state of mind of people in Russia right now in the midst of this pandemic?

CHRIS BROWN: I think everybody here knows that corruption is an epidemic inside Russia's government. But what they really hate is when it's rubbed in their face. I mean, it's one thing that they sort of expect the elites to kind of get rich, and they know they all sort of have fancier homes than they do. But... but this is like something above and beyond. I think Alexei Navalny called it the world's biggest bribe. And I think that was one part of it. I also think the way that Navalny portrayed this, he... he was almost making fun of Putin and making fun of the elites at the same time. And and that's not something that has happened here. I think... I think Navalny, in a way, broke one of the unwritten rules here. A lot of his investigations in the past have gone after other people in the Russian elite. Dmitry Medvedev, the former president, former prime minister, prior to this Putin's palace, he was the figure that had been scorned the most in Navalny investigations, but not Putin himself. And so I think what changed, obviously, when someone tries to kill you, when you survive an assassination attempt, that might change the thinking. And so clearly, the stakes were raised just... just incredibly by that... by that incident in the skies over Siberia when... when Navalny lived, when a lot of people thought he probably was going to die.

MATT GALLOWAY: So just in our last minute or so, what happens now? I mean, Alexei Navalny, as most people assume, is... is thrown into prison. What happens to what he has created and what he has unleashed?

CHRIS BROWN: You know, he... he made a very, very powerful statement at the end of his testimony today, and I'll just take a quick second to read it. Someone, he's referring to Putin, did not want me to take a single step on my country's territory as a free man, and we know who, and we know why. It drives up little thieving man in the bunker crazy, who I offended by surviving when he tried to have me killed. I can't ever remember anyone in a public forum like that speaking of Vladimir Putin. And so the words that Alexei Navalny is leaving his supporters with is... is really don't give up. He went on to say, tens of millions of people are living without the slightest prospect, their silenced because they're trying to scare them and shut them up with these show trials. But you can't jail millions of people. And when people realize this, it will all fall apart. So this... this is his final parting words. And I think people are going to be thinking about this for a very long time. Obviously, it's not possible to sustain the kind of hundred-thousand-people protests we've seen week after week. But I think Navalny and his team are clearly hoping they've changed something maybe in the DNA about how Russians are seeing their government.

MATT GALLOWAY: Chris, great to speak with you. Thank you very much.

CHRIS BROWN: Hey, great for being on your show.

MATT GALLOWAY: Chris Brown is the CBC's Moscow correspondent. Of course, the latest on this can be found at: www.cbcnews.ca. Well, that's it for "The Current" for this Groundhog Day. Coming up next on CBC Radio One its "Q". Kym's Convenience star Paul Sun Hyung Lee, one of the panellists on Canada Reads, will be defending his book called "Hench, the debut novel by Natalie Zina Walschots. You'll hear Paul's defence of that book coming up in just a few moments on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to "The Current". Take care. And we'll talk to you tomorrow.

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February 2, 2021 Episode Transcript

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