Math curriculum needs to get back to using 'more numbers than words,' says teacher

Guests: Tim Millan, Marain Small, David Costello

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JAZZ SINGER: [Music: singing] 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40...

VOICE 1: Yeah, I like math. It's one of my favourite subjects. I just find it really fun! I think I like multiplication the best.

VOICE 2: I just like pluses. And minuses.

VOICE 3: Math is nice. Like, you don't really have to do any learning you just have to understand the concepts. It's not like any other subject and it's nice.

JAZZ SINGER: [Music: singing] 5, 10, 15, 20...

VOICE 4: I don't like doing math 'cause I think it's too hard.

VOICE 5: I just find it a bit easier than every other subject because it's just memorization, kind of.

VOICE 6: Well I like that it's sort of easy to do, but also hard.

JAZZ SINGER: [Music: singing] Twenty nickels makes a dollar / I don't care, anybody holler

VOICE 7: My favourite number is six because my age is six.

JAZZ SINGER: [Music: singing] Multiplying by five is a little like counting by five. In fact, if you counted along on your fingers as you counted out loud by fives, your fingers could tell you how many fives...

MG: Ah, yes. There is nothing like making kids talk about math on the last week of their summer vacation. Those kids aren't the only ones talking numeracy this week though. Standardized test results show that Ontario Student scores are dropping. Only 58 percent of Grade 3 students met the provincial standard. That's down from 63 percent in 2015-2016 and fewer than half of Grade 6 students made the grade. Stephen Lecce is Ontario's education minister.

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STEPHEN LECCE: We know that too many of our kids are not meeting the provincial math standards in the province of Ontario. Every year the scores have either stagnated or fell. And let's be clear, there was no plan to raise those standards. And our government has a plan. We announced a four-year, 200 million dollar math strategy to get back to basics.

MG: Back to basics. The Ontario government is promising that that new curriculum will be ready for next September. They're not the only province that's struggling. Canada's international test scores have been slipping, prompting calls from other parts of the country for a return to that "back to basics" approach. Two people join me now to talk about what that actually might look like in Canadian classrooms. Tim Millan is a teacher in Toronto. He taught maths at the elementary and secondary levels and now teaches adults, and he's with me in our Toronto studio. Marian Small is a former dean of education at the University of New Brunswick and a professor emerita of math education. Marian is in Ottawa. Hello to you both.

TIM MILLAN: Hi.

MARIAN SMALL: Morning.

MG: Marian Small, we'll start with you. Just briefly when you heard about the latest test results - standardized test results - coming out of the province of Ontario, what were your thoughts?

MARIAN SMALL: Well I mean we're never happy that things aren't improving. We're curious, I think, why the French scores are so much higher than the English scores.

MG: Should people be worried in Ontario as the government is that these standardized test scores seem to be sliding?

MARIAN SMALL: I don't think worried is the right word. I think we should pay attention. And do I think things aren't improving and we should try to make them improve? Of course.

MG: Tim Millan, should we be worried that standardized test scores are sliding? And people will debate whether standardized tests is the right way to measure maths success. But if you take the test as it is, should we be concerned that those results seem to be on the way down?

TIM MILLAN: I do believe we should be concerned. Yes. Why? Well we have to have standards. The curriculum is the standards and we have to have a way to measure those standards. EQAO is one of those ways to measure the standard.

MG: EQAO is the body that does these tests?

TIM MILLAN: Yeah. The EQAO test is one of the ways to measure those standards. And I think it's a good way to measure those standards. I personally like the test. And if students are not meeting the expectations of those tests it means that they're not meeting the expectations in the curriculum.

MG: How much of this then has to do with the curriculum itself?

TIM MILLAN: I think... It's more about how the curriculum is being taught. OK? You know, it's- it's the approach to math. This- this new way, I call it a new way but it's been around for about 20 years now, to teaching math that... I think is causing a lot of the struggle.

MG: OK so tell me more about this. What's wrong with the way that math, if I can put it that way, that maths is being taught in Ontario?

TIM MILLAN: Well the first time I ever heard of "discovery math" it was being called "constructivist math." I was going to York University in the late 90s and I had a professor there who was teaching us these methods that were being developed by a group of people who wanted to change the way maths was being taught. And I would often challenge my professor on that. And he said to me that these methods were research-based and that the group of people who were coming up with these methods had done a lot of research and their research showed that we were preparing our students for the skills that they needed for the 21st century. And if we didn't teach our students in this way, they were going to get left behind. What I saw was a movement away from discipline, from practice, from repetition. And there was a lot more of in order to learn math. You need to draw pictures and write words and also include numbers.

MG: OK, so for those of us who haven't been in the classroom for a long time what is "discovery math"? I mean if I were to see it on the page, what does it look like?

TIM MILLAN: Well it's- it's a variety of things but it... One of the issues that I have with it is it involves a lot of language. The English language. So where in particular I saw students struggling with this was ESL students, students who have English as a second language. You know? And these are often students who would have excelled in maths but all of a sudden they're very challenged because they have to do journal entries and write paragraphs, reflections on- on what it is that they're learning.

MG: And how is that different than what you were talking, with the idea of repetition, of discipline? What people would often call "rote learning"?

TIM MILLAN: Right. It was called "drill and kill" when I was in university.

MG: And those... I mean times- we just heard those kids can reciting the times tables, et cetera.

TIM MILLAN: Sure. You know, I saw a movement away from that. And as I said when I was in university going to teachers' college they called it "drill and kill" as though, you know, it kills the creativity within you to to learn this way. And there was more a movement [of] open-ended questions where you're not necessarily looking for a particular answer but there's all sorts of different possible answers that- that a student could arise at.

MG: I want to bring Marian back in in a moment, but we heard the education minister in Ontario Stephen Lecce say that the government's approach will be a "back to basics approach." What does that mean?

TIM MILLAN: I don't know what the government means by that. If somebody says to me that in order for students to be successful in maths they need discipline, they need practice and they need repetition, I'm going to agree with that person.

MG: Marian, do students need discipline, practice and repetition to truly understand maths concepts?

MARIAN SMALL: Well yeah. But it's about what is it that they're practicing and what it is that they're being disciplined... where they're showing the discipline. And I think they need to show discipline in the area of thinking and problem-solving every bit as much as they have to have discipline and practice in the area of, what we might call more rote learning.

MG: In some ways this is personal for you. You've written a lot of the math curriculum that's being taught in Ontario and other parts of Canada. When you people say-

MARIAN SMALL: Well I- I've not written anything in the Ontario curriculum, just to get that straight.

TIM MILLAN: But you have written the textbooks.

MARIAN SMALL: I have written other curriculum, yes.

TIM MILLAN: You have written the textbooks that are used for the Ontario curriculum.

MARIAN SMALL: I've written, yeah. I've been part of that. Yes.

MG: I just wonder, I mean for you, what's it like when people - I mean whether it's the education minister or whether it's other teachers - criticize the way that math is being taught in Ontario? What's that like for you?

MARIAN SMALL: Well it's interesting because I'm sure we all know the way it's taught. When I read the EQAO report it said 95 percent of teachers say they teach by Direct Instruction which means they sort of show kids how to do things and the kids copy them. And that's not terribly different than my experience when I was a kid, which was quite a long time ago. So I'm not sure we know really what it looks like in every single classroom. I think that it looks different in different classrooms and we don't really have a full handle on what that means.

MG: So do you believe the curriculum needs to be changed?

MARIAN SMALL: I think that if the curriculum does change it will in the end probably make not a whole lot of difference. What matters is what teachers do with the curriculum that's in print. I don't really know in curricula around the world. I don't think maths is super different from one place to another. I think what's different is the way teachers enact it in their classroom.

MG: What was the reaction like when you were learning what was then called "constructivism" or "discovery math"? You came into the classroom with a math background. Many of your colleagues, many of your contemporaries didn't. So what was the reaction like?

TIM MILLAN: Actually, it's interesting that you say that because when I would have these debates with my professor I would look around the room in the hopes of finding an ally and I had to friend the room a little bit. I was in the elementary strand and what I found when I got to know those peers is that there were very few people with my background. I have a degree in math and a passion to teach maths. In fact, most of my peers... their relationship with maths was negative. So here you have a professor who is, say, throwing them a lifeline. 'Here's how you're going to teach this to people who are anxious about what they're going to teach.' At the same time he's also saying to them, 'Look, you struggled in maths but it's not because of a lack of discipline. It's not because of a lack of practice. It's because you were taught the wrong way. And if you are just taught this way you would have been successful,' and that was a very seductive message to those peers.

MG: And a relief perhaps to those peers who, to your point, struggled in math?

TIM MILLAN: Very much so. And I believe it's still a relief to teachers who continue to struggle teaching math.

MG: It's getting a lot of attention in Ontario because of those EQAO test scores. But as I mentioned in the introduction, Canada has fallen out of the top 10 countries in the International Math standings. Some provinces did see a bit of a gain between 2010 and 2016, Quebec among them which has the highest test scores in the country. Also Prince Edward Island. And so I wanted to bring in, given that bigger context, another voice. David Costello, math teacher, vice principal at Greenfield Elementary School in Summerside P.E.I. and the author of Using What Works: Strategies for Developing a Literacy-Rich Environment. David Costello joins us from Summerside. David, hello to you.

DAVID COSTELLO: Hi. Thanks Matt!

MG: You've been listening along to this. What have you been thinking about as you've heard Tim and Marian, in some ways, debate the curriculum that's being taught right now and what's happening in the classroom?

DAVID COSTELLO: Well, so thank you for this opportunity. What I have taken from the conversation is that both Tim and Marian have made some great points and I think what this comes back to is that when we see and think about math, what we tend to do is think in one of two extremes: either the whole "back to the basics" movement or the kind of structivist approach. And when- when we get results on the standardized testing that are not favourable what we tend to do is we swing in the other area. But what I'm suggesting is that it is not an either or. So we tend to see that pendulum go back and forth. But I agree with Marian's point in all- in how math is being taught in the classroom. And I agree with Tim's point about there is still a place for practice in the math classroom. I just see as when we're too one extreme to the other, we are missing out on some positives that can be had.

MG: What's been- what's been happening in, I mentioned that that province saw the greatest improvement in maths scores in the country between 2010 and 2016. What's going on there?

DAVID COSTELLO: Well it... Well what we've been doing, and then I can speak from my classroom, so I've been teaching math in the classroom. I came back to the school a few years ago. And what we tend to focus on is- is really understanding the math curriculum. Understanding the math concepts so in class we're going beyond the process into whether students truly understand what they're doing. And I equate this back to initially when we taught students how to read, we were focussed on can they say the word "decoding." And we weren't so focussed on comprehension. Well now, what we're focussing on in the math classroom is really comprehension and communication. Are students understanding the math and can they clearly communicate what their thinking is? Because my experience in the math classroom when I was a student was you would... quote unquote, "do the math" but then you weren't sure if you were correct or not so you had to ask the teacher, 'Is this right or is this wrong?' What we want now is for students to really be self-monitoring their work and for them to be understanding where they are at. So we really placed a heavy emphasis on understanding the math, and what we do now is we've... we appreciate that the way maths has been carved out in the past is almost as a short-term that we teach, test and move on. But the approach we're taking is a teaching for a mastery approach where we identify those foundational learnings for the grade levels and we bring those back throughout the year. And it might be cumulative review, it might be revisiting topics, but we do it so that students are continually having purposeful practice... within those larger value added concepts.

MG: Tim Millan, is that something that you think might work in the classroom here?

TIM MILLAN: You know, you have to have a full rounded approach to anything that you're going to teach. So absolutely. And obviously as you said, P.E.I. Is doing something right, so yeah... I think that what we're going for here is mastery and that's a great word to use. And you know, if the students are able to check their work themselves to confirm if they're getting it right themselves then that's great.

MARIAN SMALL: Marian, what's at stake if as the province of Ontario is suggesting there's a return to the basics?

MARIAN SMALL: It depends what "the basics" mean. If the basics means kids really understand what math's about, that's fine. If it's just, you know, say your times tables faster, I'm not sure that works because I know so many adults who are afraid of math who grew up in that system.

MG: People often say that, the supporters of so-called "discovery math", say that this is about learning for the 21st century. Do you worry that there would be things lost that in skills, lost that students would need for the work that they would be doing when they get out of the classroom?

MARIAN SMALL: I think one thing to pay attention to is that the work roles that we that that people experience these days is a world full of collaboration. And so collaborative skills are important to develop. I think one of the things we have to remember is if kids are experiencing learning through a collaborative situation and then are tested in a very individual private situation, it's something they're not used to. And we have to factor that in to why the results might be the way they are.

MG: One of the issues that's been raised alongside changing the curriculum is testing teachers. The teachers need to pass a maths test before they can even get into the classroom. David, is that a right approach?

DAVID COSTELLO: Well right now we're not... we're not doing that. And I'm more concerned with the teachers in the classroom now and supporting those teachers in understanding the mathematics concepts and working through that. So yeah. And I guess just coming back to what I said earlier to a Tim and Marian mentioned, I think that a key thing in here that we can't miss is the role of the teacher in the classroom. There will be times when the teacher will be leading the learning activity in the classroom. But there's also times when the teacher is going to be observing student's work because that's going to provide us rich opportunities and in understanding how students are developing their mathematical understanding. But on P.E.I. what we've been doing too is we've been we've been using a workshop approach to math so that so that teachers have time during those meaningful problem-based activities where they can work with a small group. They can have that targeted group. So I think... as opposed to focussing on testing I think that we need to really support teachers in their understanding of the math concepts and see how these concepts weaved together.

MG: Tim Millan, do we need to ensure as a society that the teachers know the material before they get into the classroom and maybe a standardized test is the way to do that?

TIM MILLAN: I analogize learning math and teaching math to a lot of things, but one analogy I use is learning math is a lot like learning a language because math is a language. And if you have a student who's learning French from a teacher, you want to make sure that teacher knows how to speak French, so.

MG: So much effort has been put into trying to figure out how to improve these test scores, Marion. And this latest government is, again, trying to change a curriculum, investing a lot of money, talking about those teacher tests. What would give you the sense that this is actually working? Is it the test scores or is it something larger than that?

MARIAN SMALL: Well I think the test scores are not something to be ignored. But I think we want to have other data besides test scores. Part of that has to do with do kids continue to take math courses when they don't have to? Do kids show interest in those kinds of things? So that data matters as well. And data that is classroom-based, not just data that is provincially-based is valuable, but that's not to say the provincial data doesn't matter. It does.

MG: Tim Millan, what we'll give you the sense that this is actually sticking? That kids are doing better in math? Is it just the test scores or something else?

TIM MILLAN: What would be a good science to me is a new textbook. I see the textbooks that my kids used when they come home. I know the textbooks that were used when I was teaching elementary school. You know, I once said to my daughter what are you doing? She said, 'Oh I'm just finishing my math homework.' I said, 'Oh well, what is it that you're doing? And she said, 'I just had to finish colouring in this rainbow.' So that didn't sound like math to me. I would like to see new math textbooks that have more words- or, sorry - that have more numbers than words in them.

MG: David, last words. You would just have a under a minute or so. If you had to give some advice to your counterparts in Ontario, what would one bit of advice be?

DAVID COSTELLO: Well I what would be... I would not move so far just worth getting a new textbook because I agree with what Marian said. It is not so much that textbook that is having the impact but it's the classroom teacher that is having that impact in the classroom. And it's in how the curricular- and it's and how the curriculum is being delivered that is making the impact. And I think that that while the provincial standardized assessment data is important, I think it's the classroom, that data, and really monitoring students from year to year because in this grade 6 assessment that you're just commenting on, these were... we are comparing different children every year. So like, how are they progressing through school? And I think that we can't just focus on numbers in the math thing. There is a learning progression through concrete, through pictorial... through algebraic. And we cannot just focus on the product because when we do that we are losing important parts of the process.

MG: Classes back in session for many students next week and this will be top of mind for students, teachers and those parents as well. Thank you all for joining us.

TIM MILLAN: Thank you.

DAVID COSTELLO: Thank you.

MARIAN SMALL: Thank you. Bye.

MG: Tim Millan taught math at elementary and secondary levels he now teaches adults. He was here in Toronto. Marian Small, former dean of education at the University of New Brunswick, professor emerita of math education. She was in Ottawa. And David Castello, teacher and vice principal at Greenfield Elementary. He was in Summerside P.E.I.. The CBC News is next. And then the conclusion of the CBC original podcast we've been hearing it all week long. It's called The Band Played On. You'll hear it coming up on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. This is the Summer Edition of The Current.

The Band Played On – Episode 7

MG: Hi I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current. This summer we've been listening to some of the CBC as best original podcasts and today the conclusion of the Band Played On. Over the course of five decades, dozens of students were abused by three teachers. The victims were teenage boys and girls. Many attended the same public school in an Ottawa suburb. As we've heard in previous episodes, two of the predators in this investigation are dead. One is now in prison. In this episode, a former student seeks accountability from one of the institutions he says failed them all. And a warning, the story deals with adult content and sexual abuse.

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JULIE IRETON: I've come to realize guilt, shame and self-blame are part of a three-piece suit worn by many victims of sexual abuse, as well as some of the people who love them.

VICTIM 1: You're reading it absolutely right. There's a lot of... there's a lot of shame. There's a lot of false guilt. You know? There's a lot of "I should haves." "I should've known better, I should have caught this."

VICTIM 2: I wish we'd all spoken to one another. There's so many of them, and we all knew each other. A lot of us! I know a lot of these people.

VICTIM 3: I wasn't strong enough to come forward. I just wasn't strong enough because I couldn't take the heat myself. That wrecked me. That bothered me for many, many years, and many times, and still today.

VICTIM 4: I know logically that it wasn't my fault. And I'm understanding that now. But to retrain my brain after over a decade of convincing myself that I was the one that did this. It's a heavy shame that I'm fighting.

VICTIM 5: I felt, certainly, after I initially had him charged like I'd betrayed him. And... you know, and that's where it came out. When I finally said, 'OK this is not my secret.' Right? And that was what goes in my head all the time. It's not my secret. Yeah.

VICTIM 6: I feel a lot of guilt and I feel a lot of anger. And you know it's not just my brother, right? We've all been affected by it, right? My parents had to find this out. Like it's not... it- it reverberates. And I don't know how much people, like, realize how many victims there are all the time because every victim has the relationships that didn't go right and the problems with their parents and the, you know. It's amazing! It's just so much bigger than you would ever imagine.

JULIE IRETON: Now the victims, survivors, need someone to be held accountable. The school board comes into their line of sight.

MARC LEACH: This is a very hard thing for me to do. My name is Marc Leach. I was a student at...

JULIE IRETON: Mark Leach arrives unannounced at a public meeting of the Ottawa-Carleton District School Board. It's November 2018. Marc Leach calmly inserts himself into the meeting but he's nervous.

MARC LEACH: I stand here in front of you today as one of the victims of Rob, pardon me, of Bob Clarke in the 1990s at Sir Robert Borden.

JULIE IRETON: The paper in his hand is shaking. Marc Leach was an Army brat. His dad, a decorated Canadian General, died in 2015. Marc never told his parents what Bob Clarke did to him. He didn't tell anyone back then, and yet now he's confronting the school board in a very public way.

MARC LEACH: I look at all of you. I know you're not personally responsible for letting this happen to me and others.

JULIE IRETON: In the past, different people at this school board failed to act on several warnings about Bob Clarke. These warnings came before Marc Leach was sexually assaulted by Clarke in the music room of his high school.

MARC LEACH: Well you've taken on a duty to represent the organization that did let this happen to us.

JULIE IRETON: They're sitting in this vast boardroom in a building that happens to be right next door to his former high school. Twelve school board trustees, people elected to represent the school communities, sit around a big semicircle table. They look Marc's way.

MARC LEACH: All we want is the truth. And we don't want the truth being hidden.

JULIE IRETON: Marc's wife is in the audience. So is Peter Hamer and his wife. Peter's also a victim of Bob Clarke. They're all here for moral support.

MARC LEACH: I'm sure you all very good people and you want the best for students, which is why you're here.

JULIE IRETON: The trustees stare blank faced.

MARC LEACH: I've heard in the news recently an administrator review found that nothing was done wrong in the past. Well clearly, and undeniably, that is not the case. Clearly something was done wrong in the past. Can we really trust that you have a close- look closely at the details of this case? Why is it that a CBC reporter did a detailed investigation to find all this out, and you did an administrator of review and found nothing? We can never forgive what was allowed to happen to us. I'm sure you try to offer a sincere apology, but please do not. My next point, pictures Mr. Clarke still hang prominently in the hallway towards the music room... next door at Sir Robert Borden. I ask that you remove these pictures. For almost... 30 years now, students have been walking past pictures. A sexual predator that was allowed free range on students that was never stopped. Lastly, the most important part of my statement, is this. You work to ensure every single person here, you work to ensure past this point and is now your responsibility that this will never happen to anyone ever again. Thank you for letting me speak.

JULIE IRETON: The school board chairperson turns on her microphone.

SCHOOL BOARD CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your delegation. I know that must have been difficult. We appreciate it.

JULIE IRETON: And then there's silence. Not one of the board trustees says anything more. They looked down at their agendas. Ready to move on to the next topic. I'm shocked. So is Marc Leach.

SCHOOL BOARD CHAIRPERSON: I now call for a mover and a seconder year to confirm the board minutes of 30...

JULIE IRETON: When I go looking for a comment, one trustee tells me the board was advised against saying anything for legal reasons. So no one does.

SCHOOL BOARD CHAIRPERSON: A seconder please?

JULIE IRETON: Marc Leach walks back over to his wife looking a bit stunned. Peter Hamer and his wife get up. They put on their coats. They all walk out of the board room together and into the lobby. I follow.

JULIE IRETON: So what do you think of- of how the board responded to what you were saying tonight?

MARC LEACH: I had no expectations so I came here with the sole purpose of reading my statement and seeing what I had to say. Because I've had this over whelming urge to tell them how I feel and how this made me feel. I was hoping maybe someone would recognize us and come over and say, you know, 'Thank you for coming. We want to hear what you have to say.' But no, I had to sign up and this and that, and I don't even know my name, and it's- it's not... it's like an adversarial sort of climate here. We're the people who are trying to hurt what they have been working on. You know? It's... I don't get it.

JULIE IRETON: I turned to Peter Hamer.

PETER HAMER: I expected more than Marc expected. I expected them to at least provide a little bit more acknowledgement. And even though Marc said that he didn't want an apology, it doesn't matter. They should have apologized. They should have said something. And, you know, I guess maybe this wasn't the right forum for that to happen but it still makes me angry that that was the response that we got.

JULIE IRETON: Has anyone from the board ever reached out to you or Marc or any of the other victims of Bob Clarke in the past?

PETER HAMER: Nobody has reached out, and my name has been out there since March 21st. I'm pretty easy to find and nobody has said a thing to me in the last eight months.

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LAURENCE WALL: Good evening. It's 7 o'clock and -3 degrees with light snow in Ottawa. I'm Laurence Wall from the CBC Ottawa newsroom. Some victims of sexual abuse at two Ottawa schools are calling for the school board to investigate three former teachers. The CBC has revealed that school administrators ignored warnings about two of those teachers at Bell High School.

JULIE IRETON: November 2018. CBC produces a series of investigative news stories and for the first time victims disclose publicly what went on at Bell High School over the decades.

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LAURENCE WALL: The CBC's Julie Ireton investigated these cases and files this report...

JULIE IRETON: Instantly, e-mails start pouring into my inbox. Hundreds of them.

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FEMALE NEWS ANCHOR: A CBC investigation has now found that two other teachers were abusing students at Bell High School.

JULIE IRETON: There are intimate details of historical sexual abuse at the hands of different teachers in different towns. From the Maritimes, to British Columbia, to the Yukon. From New Zealand and Britain. Stories they've never shared with anyone before. But I also hear from people who were assaulted by the three Bell High school teachers that I've been investigating. People like Rob Farran in Northern Ontario.

ROB FARRAN: Because my story precedes the stories in your article. And I thought if I'd have done something maybe all these people, the people in your stories that were exposed to him, maybe that wouldn't happen.

JULIE IRETON: Rob Farran's encounter was on a canoe trip in 1968. We heard from him in an earlier episode. It involved the coach Don Greenham and abuse in a tent on a canoe trip.

ROB FARRAN: People did go to authorities. They did report these people. They reported him. And he still sailed on through his career as if he was some hero.

JULIE IRETON: Then I hear from Sarah Hon, a victim of the music teacher Tim Stanutz. She was his student in the 1990s and she says he took her to his home into his bed.

SARAH HON: I couldn't help but feel like this is my time. I may not have come forward at the time when it was happening to me, and I may not have come out when it first came out in 2016 with the other girls, but you know what? I have to do something because too many people are getting hurt.

JULIE IRETON: And then there was a call that came from John Cody. We heard his story in episode one. He was in Bob Clarke's bands at Bell High.

JOHN CODY: I've been broken since this.

JULIE IRETON: John Cody is a musician a songwriter. He's worked with Tom Cochrane. He sang with Joni Mitchell. He didn't come forward when Peter Hamer and the seven other men first made allegations against Bob Clarke. He wasn't even aware of the allegations at that point. But Cody knows Clarke is in prison now.

JOHN CODY: And if I had to see him, which I don't want to, it would not be a good day for either of us.

JULIE IRETON: John Cody went to Bell High in the late 1970s.

JOHN CODY: And I told two teachers about him. The teachers that I told, they were great teachers. And so the fact that they did nothing... I just couldn't believe it. You know? And I thought, well, I may reach out to you. So that's what I did and...

JULIE IRETON: He's angry. And like other victims, he wants accountability from the school board. Clarke's former employer.

JOHN CODY: Like at first, you know, I'm going like, 'What is, this the Catholic Church or something?' And then I think, 'No. No it's worse.' People choose to go to church. You are, as parents, mandated to send your children to school. As a child you're mandated to go to school. All of these things so. You have to trust the school system.

JULIE IRETON: Five days after he heard the news stories, John Cody went to police. It was a tough decision to come forward at that point.

JOHN CODY: It was like, I don't want to think about this dude. You know? And talking's not exactly hard for me to do. This is some of the hardest talking I've ever had to do. I write music about my life, though. So it's not like I'm unaccustomed to revealing things or, you know, I don't think you can make art without revealing something of yourself.

JULIE IRETON: Just before Christmas 2018, police detectives came to Cody's Montreal apartment and he told them his story.

JOHN CODY: I'm enjoying this visit better. You know?

JULIE IRETON: Bob Clarke was already in prison when police laid new charges against him in John Cody's case. Cody braced for a court appearance.

JOHN CODY: I thought, 'Well if he pleads not guilty that's just so that we're going to have to go to court and go through this whole thing in front of people. I'm not doing that.' And then go, 'Hold on a second. No, I am doing that.'

JULIE IRETON: No more secrets for John Cody.

JOHN CODY: Yeah. Because I'm not I'm not a secret keeper!

JULIE IRETON: Back at Bell High School that back room still exists. Peter Hamer showed me the back room months ago. It was the evening we visited Bell on the night of a band concert.

JULIE IRETON: OK where are we now?

PETER HAMER: We're in the back part of the music room. This little room is where he would take people. To do their music tests. And it wasn't, you know, right now there's an organ...

JOHN CODY: How many times I was in his office, or how many times I was in his, like, after hours for detention or being in the practice room. All right. And in practice room there's a window in the door. And he would... I would be... I was locked in that room... and he would just look through the window, you know, and it was creepy.

LAURIE HOWAT: There is. There's two windows. He would stand facing the windows and I would sit in his office chair facing him. It would be very cathartic for us to go in with sledgehammers and get rid of that office because there isn't a need for it. There's no... The windows that are designed for safety so that people can see in are actually, you know, a predator's defence because they can see who's coming and, you know, act quickly to cover up something.

PETER HAMER: The back room, I wanted to brick it up. I wanted to knock it down. You know? 'Cause you go to the... you take math and the math teacher doesn't have an office behind the maths classroom, right?

JULIE IRETON: Be very fun to go in there and remodel.

PETER HAMER: Yeah.

SARAH HON: Backrooms should not exist. It's just, it's a temptation for anyone who has one and we hear that they're constantly misused and they're still there.

JULIE IRETON: Sexual abuse in school isn't ancient history and it's certainly not limited to Bell High. Abuse of children at school still happens. In fact, between 2017 and the spring of 2019, just 18 months, more than 100 cases of sex crimes against students in school have been reported in Canada. And those are crimes or allegations of school staff members harming kids.

NONI CLASSEN: If that's not telling that we still have a problem I don't know what is. Because really that's hard fact data.

JULIE IRETON: Noni Clasen.

NONI CLASSEN: I am the director of education at the Canadian Centre for Child Protection.

JULIE IRETON: When it comes to sex abuse in schools Classen's organization did the research and crunched the numbers. Between 1997 and 2017 the centre found 750 sex abuse cases involving almost 1,300 kids. Most of the predators were teachers.

NONI CLASSEN: And sometimes I think people get repelled by it because the thought is- is terrifying, that this is where our children go...

JULIE IRETON: And that's why Classen is now working with school boards across the country.

NONI CLASSEN: We know that 1 in 10 children in Canada will experience child sexual abuse before they turn 18, and that's a contact offence. That's an epidemic if we looked at that as a disease. So the more that people can understand that when they think something or they see something that they should get in and disrupt and question it without relying on the child to do it or the child to say something, that that's our responsibility as adults to be doing that, if we are going to put kids first and really want to protect children, that it's critical for people to start being more aware. And that...

JULIE IRETON: The Bell High School abuse scandal did catch the attention of the Ottawa-Carleton District School Board. It's taken action and Noni Classen is playing a part. After the initial investigation was published, the board engaged this national charitable organization to help.

NONI CLASSEN: The Ottawa-Carleton District School Board, it has been really taking a look at this and they're really committed in working with our agency to start learning about how they can be putting some policies in place, how they can be doing training and education and awareness to help...

JULIE IRETON: And she gives me a practical example of the kind of policy she means.

NONI CLASSEN: And if someone might say, 'Well why do I have to get permission for this? Why can't I just drive the student home after school? Why do I have to get permission for this? What- I'm not going to harm a child!' It's about turning around and going, 'I know I'm not going to harm a child, but it's not about me. It's about our commitment to put systems in place that safeguard children in case someone's trying to do that.' And we know that that's high risk for people who are grooming children and who can gain sexual access. So there- we have to put things in place. Like if we're going to be transporting children there's policies around that. And there's more than one child in the car. There could be more than one adult in the car. There are...

JULIE IRETON: So the Ottawa school board is working on some new policies. Old photos of music teacher Bob Clarke have finally been taken down and it's all a credit to these victims and their courage to speak out. I found 44 victims connected to these three teachers and I've spoken to more than half of these men and women. Many went to police. And when charges were laid their names were under a publication ban to protect them. Then several of them decided to tell me their stories. So at their request I went to court several times to ask a judge to lift 10 different publication bans. My investigation led to more than 100 interviews from people across North America. Survivors weren't sure if talking publicly about what happened to them would make things better or worse, but they didn't want to keep it inside their own heads anymore.

VICTIM 7: You know I 64 year old you're gone. I dealt with that a long time ago. Forget it. But can't. You never will.

VICTIM 8: This was someone that I was supposed to trust and who's supposed to take care of me and be responsible.

VICTIM 9: It's heartbreaking that kids and their innocence are preyed upon.

VICTIM 10: And I might have been hungry for attention too. You know? Like what kid is not hungry for affection.

VICTIM 11: He was a predator and it wasn't my fault. And I was a child and he abused my vulnerability and my trust.

VICTIM 12: This guy stole- stole my soul. He stole my soul. And I had, you know- I couldn't figure it out throughout life. And being silent so long it's been, you know, I talk about it now because I- I should have been talking about it back then.

VICTIM 13: Nobody knew about it. You just think, 'Well this is only happening to me. It doesn't- it hasn't happened anywhere else. So, you know, you don't want to be the odd bird so you don't say anything.

VICTIM 14: And make it safe for people who've kept their mouths shut for 20 or 30 years to step forward and say, 'Yep that happened to me too.'.

VICTIM 15: It's like ripples in the water, you know? It just keeps going and going and going.

JULIE IRETON: This is an unlikely group of people meeting on a weeknight to drink wine and eat lasagne at Peter Hamer's house. They've come together as an informal support group. Men and women from different generations, victims of different abusers. But they all went to the same high school.

WOMAN 1: ...that's how I shared it on Facebook!

JULIE IRETON: The conversation here is surprisingly easy. But the humour is dark.

WOMAN 1: ...it's because I was sexually abused!

[Sound: small group of people gasp and laugh]

JULIE IRETON: There's no getting away from what drew them together.

WOMAN 2: Well I'll have some of that, Peter!

PETER HAMER: OK.

WOMAN 2: I like red wine.

WOMAN 3: What is it?

PETER HAMER: It's red wine.

WOMAN 3: But like, what...

JULIE IRETON: Peter uncorked the wine.

PETER HAMER: It's Australian. It's called Hopes End.

WOMAN 3: That sounds expensive.

PETER HAMER: Thought it was appropriate.

WOMAN 3: [laughs] Dark side.

JULIE IRETON: Marc Leach and his wife are here. So is Laurie Howart and another Clarke victim is at the table. A publication ban still prevents me from saying his name.

WOMAN 4: Do you have a seating plan for us?

PETER HAMER: No. Please find a spot. That's the seating plan.

WOMAN 2: That's massive for me! Can I trade this with somebody?

PETER HAMER: No! You're the one who cut it for Christ sake!

WOMAN 2: That's too big for me.

PETER HAMER: Well thank you for coming to my house. Thank you for being a part of the club. I've waited for this for a long time and I'm hoping the next time we have even more people. Not that there should be more-

WOMAN 3: Yay, more victims!

JULIE IRETON: Peters sits with his elbows on the table, chin resting against his clasped hands. The tattoos up his forearms are in full view. One forearm has Latin writing from wrist to elbow.

PETER HAMER: Vitam Impendere Vero. It means seek out a truthful life.

JULIE IRETON: Laurie has never noticed the tattoo before but she instantly can translate.

LAURIE HOWAT: I remember that was like in my head before I even went to Bell because I saw...

PETER HAMER: I know. It's the motto for Bell High School so I knew it before I got it tattooed on but I'd already booked the tattoo and I wanted it. This is, if you go to Bell High School, like the Wikipedia page. "What's the motto?" Vitam Impendre Vero.

JULIE IRETON: Those Latin words have deeper meaning now.

PETER HAMER: You weren't truthful back then! It shouldn't be your motto but it certainly is mine. That's not- you did not live up to that. You didn't live up to it. You never lived up to it! In decades you didn't live up to seeking the truth. You didn't- you didn't- you didn't stand up for the truth. You stood up for the institution. You protected yourselves. You protected the school. You protected the school board and you hid the truth.

JULIE IRETON: Then Marc Leach chimes in.

MARC LEACH: How about we get my whole arm tattooed next week right there?

PETER HAMER: Get out, are you kidding?

WOMAN 2: Yeah! Yeah, yeah.

WOMAN 3: What kind of tattoo are you getting on your arm?

MARC LEACH: It's gonna be... It's a big spiral. It's gonna start off with like the inside of a novelist shell.

CELINE LEACH: Marc has a thing about spirals. Really.

JULIE IRETON: That's Marc's wife, Celine.

CELINE LEACH: ...let him. We go snowshoeing and he'd always walk in a circle. It's the spiral contemplation. Once you get to the centre and work your way back you've worked out the problem. For years and years and years he's been doing this to remind him.

MARC LEACH: It's like the closest thing to like a religious symbol for me too, right?

CELINE LEACH: ...something that's happening? Like are you guys willing to get tattoos as well?

WOMAN 3: I didn't get my ears pierced until I was 21! I'm not ready for a tattoo!

CELINE LEACH: [laughs]

PETER HAMER: It's- I think it's better than some of the other things you can do.

JULIE IRETON: The experience did mark them. It defines each of them in different ways. Are they victims? Or survivors? Or both?

MG: We're listening to the CBC podcast The Band Played On by reporter Julie Ireton and we'll come back to it in just a couple of minutes time. Stick around. My name's Matt Galloway. This is the Summer Edition of The Current.

[BREAK]

MG: Hi I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current. And time now to continue with the final episode of The Band Played On, the CBC podcast by reporter Julie Ireton. Let's head back to the dinner party where former students who were abused by their teachers debate whether they are victims or survivors. And a warning, this story deals with adult content and child sexual abuse.

SOUNDCLIP

MARC LEACH: I don't identify as either and it bothers me when people call me either.

PETER HAMER: And "victim" is the only word that I can find that fits. But it doesn't define who I am now.

MARC LEACH: No, exactly.

PETER HAMER: But it certainly defined who I was a teenage boy.

LAURIE HOWAT: My dad says, 'You're not a victim, you're a survivor.' But I don't feel that way yet. I feel like I haven't survived that yet. I feel like I'm in the middle of the hurricane. And it's scary and I can kind of see sky over there but I don't know if I'm going to make it through yet. So I feel like I can't say I'm a survivor until I get there. And even then, that word kind of sounds cheesy to me.

MARC LEACH: I don't like- I don't like the survivor word.

PETER HAMER: It's not something that fits at all.

LAURIE HOWAT: "Victim" fits me right now because of the fact that I feel like every day I acknowledge some part of my life that has been taken or changed because of him.

PETER HAMER: Yeah.

JULIE IRETON: This shared experience is helping Laurie Howat, the youngest of all the victims I've spoken to. She's 31. Tim Stanutz, the teacher who preyed upon her, died before her case got to court.

LAURIE HOWAT: Today is a good day.

JULIE IRETON: But Laurie finds some solace that those abused by Clarke were vindicated by the justice system. She says it's a win for all of them.

LAURIE HOWAT: That's a victory for every single victim. Whether, you know, they come forward or they don't, or there's a conviction or there isn't. It's a win for all of us because it encourages everyone to, you know, learn that they're not at fault and that what happened to them isn't unique, unfortunately. And that there are other people suffering just like they are. And it's okay to talk about it and it's okay to get help for it.

JULIE IRETON: Laurie Howat and other victims are not finished with the courts.

LAURIE HOWAT: Yeah. The school board doesn't even want to touch this.

JULIE IRETON: Laurie Howat is suing, but she's not the only one. Several civil lawsuits have been filed against the Ottawa-Carleton District School Board, the employer of the three teachers. The lawsuits claim the school board was negligent in the historical abuse suffered. Kasie Morris and Laurie Howat were both victims of Tim Stanutz. They went to the same lawyer. Kasie Morris filed the lawsuit at the same time as Laurie.

LAURIE HOWAT: It's not about money. It's about getting the chance to tell someone this really happened and someone has to be held accountable for it.

JULIE IRETON: What do you hope comes out of all of this?

LAURIE HOWAT: I hope that there's a change. I hope that there's... an accounting and people recognize that... you have to speak up. You have to talk when people- your colleagues or people who are doing this that it's not OK. Some of it was about closure for me of just being able to tell my story. Yeah. I think it was ultimately just forcing responsibility somewhere.

JULIE IRETON: Lawyers for the school board have filed statements of defence in response to all the claims. In each separate statement of defence the board says each of the three teachers was quote, "a model professional educator, respected and admired by students, parents, co-workers, other educators, the extended education community and the school board," unquote. The board denies the teachers groomed and abuse students but the board says if such actions did take place it was without the knowledge of the school board and contrary to the board's policies. Combined, the sex abuse victims are seeking more than 25 million dollars in damages. But that figure is likely to go up as more survivors come forward and file suit. Peter Hamer, Marc Leach and several others are still considering a lawsuit.

MARC LEACH: I can't deal with the long dates way ahead. You know?

PETER HAMER: You mean the civil lawyers? Or-

MARC LEACH: Yeah yeah.

JULIE IRETON: The civil suits could take years to go before a judge or reach a settlement. In the meantime, Bob Clarke's new criminal charges are about to land him back in court.

JOHN CODY: Like this is real. It is real for a lot of people.

JULIE IRETON: John Cody has one more smoke before he heads into court. He holds his cigarette between gloved fingers. It's a cool bright morning in March 2019, almost a year after Clarke's first conviction.

JOHN CODY: Oh my God!

JULIE IRETON: Cody, the singer-songwriter, made a new friend today. Someone else who went to Bell High around the same time. They didn't know each other back then in the late 1970s. Forty years later they meet outside the courthouse.

REPORTER: Tell me your name on tape just so I have the-

CHRIS HILCUS: Oh! Chris Hilkis. Robert Clarke was a big community person and that he needs to take responsibility for what he's done and...

JULIE IRETON: Other victims, including Peter Hamer, join the men. They're here for moral support.

MARC LEACH: Kind of a little overwhelming to see, you know. I knew more victims had come forward, you know, to have their day in court so that they could- they could give their statements to Bob Clarke and, you know, it's a powerful, like, it's a powerful thing to do. It's intense.

JULIE IRETON: Inside the courtroom, Bob Clarke is brought in. Clarke's hair is messy. He's wearing dark blue jeans and a wrinkled white dress shirt. And this time he sits in the prisoner's box. Clarke stares at John Cody and Chris Hillkis. They glare back. Just like last time, Clarke has spared the victims a trial. Clarke is pleading guilty to historical crimes of gross indecency against both men. A judge gives Clarke a sentence of 15 months. Most of that time will be served concurrently, included in the prison time he's already serving for abusing eight other students. The group slowly ambles out of the courtroom following behind John Cody's wheelchair. Cigarettes are passed around. Relief hangs like smoke in the air.

CHRIS HILCUS: I feel relieved that it's done with. It's been a long journey. It's part of the healing process and it's something I'm going to have to live with the rest of my life, I believe. It's not going to go away. I'm just gonna learn the tools to survive as I always have.

JULIE IRETON: Chris Hillkis is new to speaking into my microphone. He's now in his 50s. He wears a blue dress shirt and a winter coat. Hilkis looks nothing like the 40-year-old photo I found in a Bell High School yearbook.

CHRIS HILCUS: That... it's a minimal charge in our Canadian society. We need to look at that, I think. He needs to change.

JULIE IRETON: I walk over to John Cody.

JOHN CODY: It was weird. I really... is this is supposed to be a sound bite? I'm not sure if I could give-

JULIE IRETON: I don't do sound bites.

JOHN CODY: Cause I'm not sure if I'd give good sound bites.

JULIE IRETON: He squints at me as the sun shines on his face.

JOHN CODY: I'm glad it happened, obviously, and I'm glad he took accountability for what happened. It's not the same thing as saying, 'Yeah I did it.' But it is the same thing, he pled guilty.

JOHN CODY: John Cody has the ability to turn most things in life into poetry. He's turned his pain into a song. He's now recorded it, straining his damaged vocal chords to sing the words.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: piano playing]

JOHN CODY: I'm sharpening my weapons through new found tears / The pain is old, eyes dry for years / I wanna build an armour, new / Impervious, stoic, impregnable to you / But all my scars are mine / A twisted valentine / These wounds are heaven sent a teacher to repent the / Send me ...

JOHN CODY: There's an impact. And I could look back on my life and almost remember every moment where it played a factor. I didn't even know it at the time. See this is why it's good to get older. Cause when you're young, you don't know. You know? And so I never regret aging for that reason. I wouldn't want to go back to where I'm stupid. But anyway...

JULIE IRETON: Are you glad it's over?

JOHN CODY: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's not over. It'll never be over in a particular way. And I don't like the word "victim." I think "casualty" might be better. I've learned a lot about myself for the last few months and I don't think that could ever be a bad thing. I think I did as best as I could in this situation. That's a pretty long-ass sound bite.

JULIE IRETON: It's OK I'm not looking for sound bites!

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

[Sound: people conversing inaudibly]

JULIE IRETON: We're were a suburban split level home where Peter grew up. His parents still live here.

MISHA HAMER: So the next thing, we have the police.

JULIE IRETON: But Peter had mentioned that- that you wanted to meet and, which is really nice. I've actually heard some stories about this house so it's kind of interesting to be in it.

JULIE IRETON: The Hamers sit side-by-side in comfortable armchairs.

MISHA HAMER: Okay. my name is Misha Hamer.

COLIN HAMER: And I'm Colin. Hamer, obviously. Peter's father.

JULIE IRETON: My producer Kristin Nelson is here too. This time she holds the microphone.

KRISTIN NELSON: Why did you want to meet Julie?

COLIN HAMER: Actually it was-

JULIE IRETON: It was me that wanted to meet Julie because it... I was so pleased that somebody was helping Peter.

JULIE IRETON: We've ended up where we started. In Peter's parents living room. The same living room where Bob Clarke sat when Peter pointed a gun at his head back in 1985.

COLIN HAMER: We're in the living room of the house that I grew up in, the house of my parents. Still owned since 1970. But what happened here in the summer of 1985, I don't know if I told my parents this so I'm not 100 percent sure they're aware of it as they sit here. So...

JULIE IRETON: Peter's mom and dad are about to hear some details about the gun story for the first time. The night his teacher, Bob Clarke, came to this house.

KRISTIN NELSON: He came in this door?

PETER HAMER: Yeah. Yeah. He came in the front door. I remember him sitting down and he- and I distinctly remember him asking, like you know, what's up? Where are the kids? Where are the bedrooms? Right? And...

JULIE IRETON: Peter's mom is nodding. His dad is listening intently.

PETER HAMER: So I had a little bit... had a little bit to drink and I was I was angry and I thought, 'OK I'll go get the shotgun.' And I brought it back upstairs and I pointed it at his head and I threatened him and I said, 'My brother is gonna be starting in a year and you can't do this,' you know, 'I'll kill you right now.' Now the shotgun wasn't loaded I'm not even...

JULIE IRETON: Peter's sister Nicola is here too and she was here on the night of the guns.

NICOLA HAMER: I know. I was irritated with Peter for being a jerk and I was irritated with Clarke for sticking around. Like what kind of idiot are you? And that was it. As far as I was concerned everybody was being stupid.

JULIE IRETON: It happened so long ago but it still leaves their mom with questions.

MISHA HAMER: The fact that you didn't come to me, that Nicola didn't come... Yeah, to tell me what Peter had done.

NICOLA HAMER: Well because I kept his secrets.

MISHA HAMER: You kept his secrets.

NICOLA HAMER: I kept his secrets.

KRISTIN NELSON: And you guys hadn't heard that.

JULIE IRETON: Did you hear that story before?

COLIN HAMER: ...Not in the detail... we were- we were aware after...

MISHA HAMER: We would have been rather upset, I think, had we known he'd taken out those guns.

NICOLA HAMER: I feel tremendous guilt for not having done something. I mean, yeah no. I I feel tremendous guilt and I hadn't protected my brother. He's only a year younger than I am. And like, I'd looked after him when he was little and- and then I utterly failed him, clearly, as a teenager. And like it's all of us. We've all been affected by it, right? My parents had to find this out. Like it's not... it- it reverberates.

JULIE IRETON: It's still difficult to talk about, but all the talking has made things better.

JULIE IRETON: Are you proud of him?

COLIN HAMER: Yeah.

MISHA HAMER: Extremely, extremely proud. Yes. Certainly him.

COLIN HAMER: Well he's grown in a way. And the fact that he's, you know, he's helping others with this problem. That's a positive that has come out of this.

JULIE IRETON: Peter Hamer and I have spoken numerous times over the past year. He quickly got used to our regular check-ins and there being a microphone in his face every time we were having even a very casual conversation. When we started down this path, Peter was weighed down with the shame of being a survivor of abuse and he felt guilt for helping put a man behind bars. But now more than a year has gone by.

PETER HAMER: Yeah. It's been huge amount of growth. So there were parts when you were investigating and we were having these conversations where I would get off the phone and feel like emotionally destroyed. You know, I went through massive bouts of depression because I'm like, 'Oh my God we found out more horrible, horrible things.' But frankly, the more we talked, like, this has been kind of the best therapy for me. Cause I never would have- I never would have thought that I would have been in this position to not feel guilty. But I still struggle with, you know, in my head feeling like this is- I don't want to feel proud about it. Like I don't- I don't- I don't feel that.

JULIE IRETON: OK maybe not pride but empowerment?

PETER HAMER: I feel very empowered now. I mean I've had conversations with people from coast to coast. I'm in contact with the other survivors of sexual violence, not just from Bob Clarke but from Tim Stanutz and Don Greenham and others across the country. And I feel like they turned to me and they want, you know, they want a conversation. They want to understand, you know, what was my process and what happened. And so I feel a tremendous amount of responsibility that I gave myself, you know. I'm- I'm working with a university in Kitchener, Waterloo that is studying gender sexual violence and, you know, so I'm having these conversations with young students and they're trying to learn about how it affected me. But then when they learn that then they can, you know, they can maybe change the future, which is really, really the most important thing.

JULIE IRETON: So maybe you've answered this but what is the biggest difference for you, you know, since the day we met in March to today?

PETER HAMER: The biggest difference is, I think, I have something to say now. Right. And people are listening to it. And I want them to continue to listen to it.

JULIE IRETON: He's become a leader. A change maker. There are no longer tears when we talk and the nervous energy has faded. I've only known Peter for a year but I see a confidence in him I didn't see last year.

PETER HAMER: We have to make changes. I don't want this to be a flash in the pan. I want this to be a continued conversation that people have over, and over, and over again. And, you know, people that are smarter and, you know, and more intelligent know more things need to take this and continue with it. It's not just me as, you know, the guy who suffered at the hands of his music teacher in the 80s. You know, this stuff continues today. We have to be smarter. We have to do things better.

JULIE IRETON: Peter Hamer guided this journey. A search for answers and accountability.

PETER HAMER: It's- it's- it's a really good place to be, now.

JULIE IRETON: But there was more that came with the revelations than he had anticipated. Along the way he learned to forgive himself. It wasn't his fault. It's not his shame and now it's not his secret.

MG: We've been listening to The Band Played on, a CBC investigative podcast by reporter Julie Ireton and producer Kristin Nelson. If you have a story you'd like to share with Julie you can reach her through the Web site cbc.ca/thebandplayedon. Since that podcast was launched in May, more victims of these three predatory teachers have been in touch with Julie and so another chapter of the story will be coming later this fall. If you want to hear the entire podcast and receive updates you can subscribe through Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault centre, or a rape crisis centre in your area.

Friendless

Guest: James Avramenko

MG: You are listening to the Summer Edition of The Current on CBC Radio One. My name is Matt Galloway. Admit it, you've probably unfriended someone on Facebook. At the very least, you've wanted to unfriend somebody. Maybe it's that person who has a life that just seems too perfect. Maybe it's the person who posts too much. Maybe it's the person who keeps trying to sell you things. One Saskatoon man wanted to get rid of all of his Facebook friends but he worried about the connections that perhaps would be lost and so he came up with a very old fashioned solution to a very modern problem.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES AVRAMENKO: Hi my name is James Avramenko and I have decided to unfriend every person I have on my Facebook. I'm reaching out to each person and sort of talking to them about our relationship and why I am in the process of unfriending them. The idea is to have a good conversation, to check in with them, see how their life is going. What kind of adventures they've gotten on, what stories they have since the last time we saw each other. We'll often sort of share funny memories of each other and experiences that we've had together and then with the goal at the end of unfriending and deciding how, or if, we're going to stay in contact. Most of those conversations I am then recording and sharing on my new podcast.

SOUNDCLIP

[Friendless podcast]

JAMES AVRAMENKO: Hey everybody. Welcome back to Friendless, the show about losing friends one hour at a time. I am your host, as always, James Avramenko and I am on a mission to have no friends left on my Facebook feed...

JAMES AVRAMENKO: So the way Facebook has affected my friendships, it's sort of hard to quantify in a way because at the start it was a really easy way for me to shoot a message to somebody. You know, we'd share homework over the website at the very start. So it was a really easy and exciting way to share information. Over the years it's kind of taken a bizarre turn where what I find it's done is it's- it's encouraged - for myself, I don't know for others but I know for myself - it's encouraged me to almost rack up a list of statistical friends. It's become more about the number of friends than the actual true connections.

[Music]

JAMES AVRAMENKO: And I find that it's allowed me to sort of go into friendship autopilot where I can just scroll by somebody, like their photo, and tell myself that I've, you know, been in contact with them when if you really sort of step out of it and analyze it, I don't think that that's true contact.

SOUNDCLIP

[Friendless podcast]

JAMES AVRAMENKO: It's To-mar, right? Vishal Tomar?

VISHAL TOMAR: You do want to learn to pronounce it correctly?

JAMES AVRAMENKO: I do.

VISHAL TOMAR: All right. It's TOH-mar.

JAMES AVRAMENKO: TOH-mar.

VISHAL TOMAR: Yeah.

JAMES AVRAMENKO: I sound like a white guy saying it, don't I?

VISHAL TOMAR: Yeah, but like it's closer because people usually usually pronounce it Toh-MAR.

JAMES AVRAMENKO: Yeah.

VISHAL TOMAR: And I never used to correct it. I was like man, I don't have time to correct people.

JAMES AVRAMENKO: One of my favourite episodes is a relatively recent one with my former boss, Sophie Clarke, on Facebook. She goes by Sophie Clarke and she was my boss when I worked at the Alberta Theatre Projects and I had an absolute blast reconnecting with her.

SOUNDCLIP

[Friendless podcast]

SOPHIE CLARKE: I honestly remember the first time I met you coming into like the little front of house office so we could interview or whatever.

JAMES AVRAMENKO: Yeah.

SOPHIE CLARKE: I meant like in all honesty, I was like, 'Man this guy is hot.' [laughs] And I was like, 'Oh no stop it! Shut up.'

JAMES AVRAMENKO: [laughs]

JAMES AVRAMENKO: It had been years since we spoke and so it was just so nice to touch base, say hello, see how she's doing and hear all the funny stories.

SOUNDCLIP

[Friendless podcast]

SOPHIE CLARKE: Oh, Kyle! And Dan?

JAMES AVRAMENKO: Dan! Dan the Man. With all his movie reviews? I loved it because he his other job was at the movie theatre...

JAMES AVRAMENKO: So when it gets down to the end and we start getting close to the time when we unfriend I- I'll honestly, I get a little sad. Not being sure if this is the last time we speak or if we're going to really make that effort to stay in touch next time.

SOUNDCLIP

[Friendless podcast]

JAMES AVRAMENKO: We have one last thing that we have to do for the show. So I'm going to pull up your Facebook and...

SOPHIE CLARKE: Pumped.

JAMES AVRAMENKO: See, I've been calling you Sophie. On Facebook you're actually "Sof."

SOPHIE CLARKE: That's right. [laughs]

JAMES AVRAMENKO: So Sof Clark, we are no longer Facebook friends.

SOPHIE CLARKE: Oh! My heart.

JAMES AVRAMENKO: [laughs] How do you feel? You doing ok?

JAMES AVRAMENKO: The general effect to how I interact with people now that the show has had is it's made me really appreciate the friendships that I have and that I have actively cultivated. It is, like I say, it is a lot of work to be a friend and I think that Facebook has allowed us to sort of coast through those relationships and pretend like we're more in contact than we actually are.

MG: Inspired by that? It's James Avramenko. His podcast is called Friendless. You can check it out wherever you get your favourite podcasts. We reached him in Saskatoon. And that's it for The Current for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for Q. It's been almost two years since the #METOO movement started. Conversations continue to happen in Hollywood and beyond about sexism, diversity and inclusion. To that end, Academy Award winning actor Gina Davis will speak with Tom Power. She has a new documentary called This Changes Everything. It's about gender disparity in Hollywood on and off the screen. That is coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio One. This marks the end of our final Summer Edition of The Current. It's been my pleasure to have been with you for the last couple of weeks. On Monday, Laura Lynch will be here as the interim host of The Current. She of course a familiar voice on this program as a summer host, frequent Friday host. She's a long time CBC political reporter and foreign correspondent and she will bring much insight into the political world as we get set to roll into a federal election this fall. Welcome, Laura. A permanent host for The Current will be announced later in the season. We end this Summer season with a plea from Todd Rundgren. Long before Facebook was a twinkle in anyone's eye. He wrote this tune, "Can We Still Be Friends?" Here's Todd Rundgren singing it with Daryl Hall. I'm Matt Galloway. Have a great weekend. Thanks for listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Can We Still be Friends by Todd Rundgren and Daryl Hall]

The Current Transcript for August 30, 2019

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Math curriculum needs to get back to using 'more numbers than words,' says teacher

The Band Played On – Episode 7

Friendless

Aug. 30, 2019 episode transcript

August 30, 2019 episode transcript.

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