This Syrian refugee spent months stuck in a Malaysian airport. Now he wants to bring 200 migrants to Canada

Guest: Hassan al Kontar, Amir Taghinia

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds from protest in Papua New Guinea]

LL: Sounds from a 2017 protest by refugees on Manus Island in Papua New Guinea. While exact numbers aren't known observers estimate there are more than 800 refugees there and on the neighbouring island nation of Nauru. They're caught up in Australia's controversial offshore refugee processing system. Since 2013, the Australian Government has refused all refugees coming to the country by sea, instead paying to house them on the too far off islands. Many refugees say they feel trapped, abandoned and forgotten. After fleeing persecution in their home countries, they feel even more persecuted by a country they turned to for help. Though he did not travel toward Australia, these are feelings Hassan al Kontar knows well. The Syrian refugee gained international attention after being stranded in a Malaysian airport for seven months. He has since resettled in Canada and now with the help of refugee resettlement groups in Canada and Australia, he's hoping to get between 200 and 250 detained refugees off those two South Pacific islands and into Canada. The project is called Operation Not Forgotten. Hassan al Kontar joins me now from our Vancouver studio. Hello.

HASSAN AL KONTAR: Hello. Good morning to you.

LL: What is Operation Not Forgotten?

HASSAN AL KONTAR: It's an operation developed by two non-profit organizations, both based in British Columbia, Canada Caring Society and Mosaic. The goal here is to offer hope and a permanent solution for more than 200-250 refugee detained so far in Manus and Nauru camps in Papua New Guinea for more than 60 years now. The operation is supported by Amnesty International, by Canadian Refugee Council and by the Refugee Council of Australia.

LL: How did you first learn about the refugees being detained on Manus Island and Nauru?

HASSAN AL KONTAR: When I was at the airport Frankly I started receiving some messages from people around like living in Manus and Nauru and specific a guy who had been detained since he was 17-years-old. He was 23 that time and he was explaining to me about the situation. Then I have been interviewed by some of the Australian media. I tried to explain the situation there, so it became a personal matter for me. They are living in unhuman situation, but what I need to say now, we are not starting this operation as to put the pressure or to publicly shame or to fight against any governments, especially the Australian government. Simply we are here to encourage them to do the right thing. It's peace and love message to beg them for help. Let's give these people their lives back. Let's deal with this on a humanitarian basis, not a political one. Let's work together to end this.

LL: Now you say that you spoke about this issue once you found out about it when you were being interviewed by the Australian media. Did you get any feedback from the Australian government?

HASSAN AL KONTAR: Unfortunately, no. Some of the media had edited it. They did not broadcast it. Some did ,but no feedback from them. The Australian people should know better about that. Australia is a part of the Refugee Convention. The 1951 Refugee Convention. Since 1954 they can't treat refugees, the people who are seeking asylum, as illegal immigrants. There is a difference between a refugee and illegal immigrants. The least think you can do is to send them to court for a proper court. Even if these victims did some crimes, you need to send them to court. By now they will be finished their sentence, but so far they simply decided to sacrifice these people to show that this is what's going to happen to you if you come by sea.

LL: Now I want to bring someone else into this discussion. Amir Taghinia was just a teenager when he fled Iran for fear of persecution and he end up spending many years on Manus Island. He actually came to Canada through a private sponsorship and he's also in our Vancouver studio. Hello.

AMIR TAGHINIA: Good morning and thanks for having me this morning.

LL: Amir, how did you end up on Manus Island?

AMIR TAGHINIA: Well I was living in Malaysia after I fled Iran when I was about 15 or 16. I lived in Malaysia for five years and after registering in UNHCR and finding out that there is a crisis in Syria at about 2011, the Assad war. I was pretty much told that there are more priorities than any other nationalities and should find a better solution for myself. And when I realized Australia is the closest country to Malaysia and they are signatory to the UNHCR convention and I can seek asylum without being deported back to where I was born and can be persecuted, I sought asylum in Australia, but unfortunately I was told that there is a new policy called 19 July and instead of given asylum in Australia, instead I will be sent to Papua New Guinea. I'll be processed and if I have been found to be refugee, I'll be resettled in there.

LL: And so did you try to reach Australia by boat?

AMIR TAGHINIA: I did. I boarded a boat from Indonesia and I sought asylum in Australia.

LL: And you actually reached Australia and you were turned over to Manus Island?

AMIR TAGHINIA: Yes. We arrived in Australia after being on the ocean for three nights and four days and we arrived in Christmas Island, which is a territory of Australia and we were all arrested by the Australian naval ship and we were detained upon arrival.

LL: And how long did you end up being on Manus Island?

AMIR TAGHINIA: I was transferred to Manus Island on the August of 2013 and I left Manus Island October of 2017.

LL: Okay so roughly four years. Tell me what conditions were like on the island.

AMIR TAGHINIA: I can list a thousand things in regards to the condition in Manus Island, but I think the best way that I can put it is if I would not want to put any kind of animals on that island. Forget set aside any human beings. That place is not made for any kind of human beings.

LL: Can you tell me why? Can you give me some examples of what made it like that?

AMIR TAGHINIA: Imagine overcrowded dorms in a very hot tropical and humid conditions. Food that is the people that are being fed pretty much the same food every single meal in a very unhygienic conditions. Overcrowded washrooms and bathrooms, filthy conditions that so far over seven people have died and some of them there specifically because of the conditions because of septicaemia because of other disease that they contracted on the island. And the other reason would be the safety issues. The safet ypretty much in all through Papua New Guinea is a very big issue and people get attacked by local people and there's been a couple of people who been killed on Manus Island due to the safety issues.

LL: So I wonder what this was like for you? I guess you sort of felt trapped on that island.

AMIR TAGHINIA: Well it indeed was a trap. It was pretty much based on a system that you cannot leave the island. You cannot leave the detention centre. Pretty much a very high security facility and very close to a prison, but the difference between Manus Island prison and other prisons on this planet was you will be told what is your sentence and how long you will be staying in a prison. But unfortunately on Manus Island, first of all you don't have access to any lawyers. You are not told what is your sentence and why you're being detained, you are not told how long you will be detained for.

LL: Hassan al Kontar, I'm wondering when you hear Amir's story, I wonder how much that reminds you of your own experience?

HASSAN AL KONTAR: That's a heartbreaking. Reminds me how much should I be thankful and grateful to be in such a country.

LL: Amir, Operation Not Forgotten is putting you on some private citizens act. I believe you came to Canada as a privately sponsored refugee. Is that correct?

AMIR TAGHINIA: Yes that is correct. I am very, very glad to hear that there is a movement that we can help. And I always believed on individual citizens and I really have faith in the citizens of Canada. I believe because media does not have a proper coverage for Manus Island, it does not bring a lot of the more important attentions to the Canadian public or the Australian public or does not necessarily shows the reality of these people's lives.

LL: OK Hassan, I'm sure that some people listening would say that Canada, as as you've already suggested, has a robust refugee program and that Australia created this problem and it should be taking those refugees in. Why should Canada have to step up? It's done so much already.

HASSAN AL KONTAR: Well there's no such thing as enough good work. Why Australia? Because Australia are not doing anything and they are not willing to do anything. And we need to do something to give these people their lives back. And why Canada? Because the Canadian people, Canada is a great country. It's become an icon when it come to refugee issues with the help of Australian people actually, we are hoping to get something and we are offering something here. If the Australian Government is willing to help to resettle these people, to send them free then please do so. If they are not doing that we need to do something and we have a unique opportunity in Canada. It's the only country in the world with a private sponsorship program where people can come together and back with the system to sponsor refugee. No other country in the world can do so.

LL: Amir, are you still in touch with people on the island?

AMIR TAGHINIA: I am indeed still in touch with them.

LL: And what are they saying to you about their current situation?

AMIR TAGHINIA: Well most of the words that I hear like mainly I repeatedly hear the sentence that you have been in here, you've lived in here, you know the situation. Imagine that 10 times worse. It's just getting worse and worse. It's people are losing hope. Suicide attempts have increased dramatically since the past couple of months after the Australian election.

LL: And that is because the government that was returned to power is maintaining the same policy.

AMIR TAGHINIA: Exactly. I've been speaking to the folks on Manus Island and some of them aon Nauru and I told them that does not necessarily bring their hope for you or takes the hope away from you. There is always hope no matter where you are, you can always have hope and there can be doors opening to you as we can hear about the progress that you're making in terms of getting over 200 people to Canada.

LL: Hassan let's talk about the cold hard cash aspect of this. It's going to cost Operation Not Forgotten between three and four million dollars to bring these refugees to Canada. And this is this is private money, this is not government money. How hopeful are you that the project can raise that much money?

HASSAN AL KONTAR: Well call me naive, but I believe in people. Individuals saved my life, saved so many lives so far. Two thirds of the people who are being come into to Canada, resettled in Canada are privately sponsorship and each one of them cost $16,5000. People around the world are willing to help. We are going to share GoFundMe page for the Canadian people so that they can donate and they will have the charity tax receipt. Australia, also the Australian people they will have a charity tax receipt from the Refugee Council of Australia and we will deal with it on a daily basis and people will come together. They can come together. Individuals they have the power to change lives to touch other lives and to donate money and we also need some volunteers, those who are not, who think that they are able to help with filling the forms. We need their help as a volunteers as well. We can do it.

LL: Amir, it's been almost two years since you came to Canada. How are you doing these days?

AMIR TAGHINIA: I'm doing pretty good actually. I feel very connected to the Canadian society. I have been able to pretty much make this place home, a new home now. I have started school less than a year after my arrival. I would say in about three months time I found a job in about the same time and I would like to say I've been paying my taxes and my bills, so I would say I am a part of society now and I feel home.

LL: And Hassan, it's been almost nine months since you came to Canada. How are you settling in?

HASSAN AL KONTAR: Well nothing to complain about. Now I understand that life is not only about what you want, it's also about what you have. So while you are working towards what you want, try to enjoy what you have. All what I was asking for is a place where I can be permanently safe, where I can call at home, where I can find a job and establish a family and I've found all of that. I'm so proud to be a part of the society. I have nothing in my heart, but love and peace for all of them. I'm working now in a restaurant as a barista. I'm in love with coffee, as you know. So I'm also being my taxes, paying my bill. I'm so happy to contribute and provide to this society.

LL: Amir, finally what do you want people to know about the refugees on Manus and Nauru?

AMIR TAGHINIA: Well I've been always asked this question and I'd like to put it this way. We all will one day need a hand to help and I learned something from Canadians and also from my Australian friends, the ones that they always helped. And they were all supportive of what happened on Manus Island, despite their government and some minorities that are not supportive of refugees that paying it forward. I received many helps from Australians and from Canadians to this day and I always try to pay it forward, whether it was to the homeless people here in Canada or anyone who was in need of help. I believe that if we humans do not take care of each other and pay attention and help each other and do not have an open welcoming arms for each other, who would do that for us? So people on Manus Island, on Nauru, not only these two islands, but there's so many other places on this planet that people are in need of help. I understand we do have people in our own backyard, in our own home country here in Vancouver that they need our help, which I always been thinking about and tried as much as I could. But there are people in other places as well that we can help. In the meantime, we can help our people in our backyard. So let's have open arms just like Canadians and welcome people, help people, put a helping hand out there and I'm sure you will receive the good from that.

LL: Alright. I thank both of you for coming in and taking the time to speak with us today.

HASSAN AL KONTAR: Thank you very much for having us.

AMIR TAGHINIA: Thank you very much for having us.

LL: Hassan al Kontar was a refugee from Syria who was stranded in a Malaysian airport for seven months and is now a refugee advocate. Amir Taghinia was a detained refugee on Manus Island and is now a human rights advocate. Both were in Vancouver. We reached out to the Australian government for comment on their offshore refugee processing policies, we did not hear back. Well a number of artists found themselves being held on Manus Island including a Kurdish refugee who goes by the name Moz. He'd been held on the island for five years. Moz recorded his song "All the Same" in 2017 as a way to bring attention to his plight. His vocals were recorded using a cell phone from Manus Island. Here is Moz.

[Song: "All the Same" by Moz]

Someone Knows Something: Season 5, Episode 7

[Music: Theme]

LL: This summer we're playing some of the best of CBC podcasts. Last week we began the latest season of Someone Knows Something in season 5, David Ridgen travels to Thompson, Manitoba to investigate the 1986 murder of Kerrie Brown. Could the memory of a long ago conversation be the key to breaking the case? This is Episode 7: Luella.

SOUNDCLIP

DR: Maybe you want to sit next to your dad, and your dad can have this on his lap?

TB: What is it exactly?

DR: It's a photo album. It’s a pretty heavy one.

JIM BROWN: We'll get started at the front here. That's an old album.

[Sound: Pages being turned]

TB: Who's in the picture? Just friends?

JB: Yeah, that's my little Kerrie down by the TV. Most of the others I don't know.

DR: We’ve sat down to look at some grainy one-use camera photos from the party on October 16th 1986. I got them from Doug Krokucz, who had to dig them out of storage. Six photo remainders of the night Kerrie disappeared that have never been published, and that Jim and Trevor have never seen.

DR: This was one of those sort of disposable cameras that you can get, and they passed it around.

TB: I'm going to grab my magnifier, Dave. Hang on.

[Sound: TB walking up the stairs, shuffling]

DR: Kerrie's sitting down at the back of a finished basement room on the floor in front of a TV that's turned off. I count 14 others in the room with her. Nicole, Rhonda, Grimace, Doug, and all the rest who police say were looked into.

DR: Looks like everybody's having a good time.

TB: Yeah, that's her. That's definitely Kerrie. Yeah, you're right.

JB: Yeah, it looks like her little pantsuit underneath there.

TB: Is she wearing the jacket or no?

JB: No.

[Sound: Page turning] DR: This is the picture she's not in, and everyone's looking at.

TB: K.

DR: And then she's back in the picture down here again.

TB: K. Same people, same outfits.

DR: Laughing, same people, same outfits.

DR: I believe Kerrie is taking this particular shot. Everyone clowning for her at the camera. Nobody appearing upset or out of place. Kerrie's framing, her angle. What was going through her mind and the other’s in the room at the time?

TB: I could see... when I look at a picture that is her, it's obviously her, but then I sometimes see her in other people. Isn't that weird? So I'd want to see her everywhere. And I would see her everywhere, in other people.

DR: The photo album is closed. The pictures will never be unseen, and their effect shows plainly on Jim and Trevor's ashen faces.

TB: So I got a letter in the mail today from the Justice Department…

DR: Adding to the feeling...in the ongoing attempt to replace the autopsy report the Browns originally received, but that Trevor then inadvertently lost, it’s just been learned that the RCMP has asked the medical examiner’s office not to release it to the Brown family again.

TB: The RCMP have told the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner...you are not to release that... any or all documents from that file to anyone in the public. Including us. I read this like, aw, what a kick in the gut.

DR: Yeah, I wouldn't despair yet…

DR: Trevor and Jim have retained a lawyer from the firm Hill Sokalski Walsh and Olson, who offered to do the work pro bono to argue for the autopsy report’s release. It's a rock bottom start to the day. But then Jim stirs. He remembers a story he'd been meaning to tell me...about a tip he got recently while drinking at a local Thompson bar.

DR: So tell me what happened.

JB: Well, I started out over at the Hub, and I walked over to the Thompson Inn. And I was sitting by myself. She happened to come in.

DR: Who did?

JB: This girl. I don't know what her name is. I knew that I had a beer with her before, but I don't know what her name was. Me, I don't remember names at all. But anyway… She said how are you doing? How are you feeling? And I said well, you know like I said before, I don't sleep at night at all over this thing with my daughter. And she mentioned a name. She said maybe this will help you. And I said I won't remember that name. Could you...get a pen and paper, and mark the name on a piece of paper.

DR: What did she mean by maybe this will help you?

JB: Maybe this will help me concerning Kerrie. We had a beer, and I put it in my pocket. I didn't make no big concern about it or anything...and when I come home, put my glasses on and looked at it. The name is in that envelope. That's the same thing, name she wrote on there. The same paper, everything is in that envelope.

DR: And what did she tell you?

JB: She didn't tell me anything. Just said maybe this will help you. And I brought it home, and I told Trevor the next morning. And uh… Went from there, he got a hold of Janna in Winnipeg and...I told her the story..I said...

DR: Jim hands me the small rip of paper he was given. On it, two words. Frederick Spence. A name. Jim told RCMP investigator Janna Amirault about the tip, but it's unclear to him if anything was followed up. I ask Jim if he can try to talk to the woman from the bar again to get her name.

JB: I'll certainly get her name next time I bump into her uptown.

DR: Okay.

JB: I think she lives in town here actually.

DR: Trevor and Jim have received tips from friends and strangers alike. Some of them based on rumour and ignorance. But we all agree that this one has a ring and a feel to it that makes me want to follow it up immediately…

[Sound: Dialing a phone]

DR: It turns out we don't have long to wait. Jim soon sees the woman again in town, and asks her name — Luella.

[Sound: A phone tries to connect]

SON: Hello?

JB: Hello. Is that Luella? This is Mr. Brown. How are you doing? My friend is here, that I was telling you about. He wouldn't mind talking to you...if you didn't mind.

[Sound: A seatbelt, a car in motion]

DR: I'm just going to see Luella, who I finally got in touch with via Jim Brown. I'm just pulling in on this building now...It looks like townhouses in a row.

[Sound: A card door opens and closes]

DR: Hi there.

LUELLA: Hi.

DR: How are you?

L: I'm okay.

DR: Luella's wearing a pink and white print top and white pants, and she has shoulder length dark hair pinned up with a single clip.

DR: Thanks for doing this, and Jim had told me that you were talking to him like I guess a month ago.

L: Yeah, I did.

DR: What was it that made you go to Jim and tell him this?

L: Because um... about the fourth time I talked to him, after I met him, he started telling me about his daughter, and he cried. And...

DR: Then Luella tells me about someone she used to know — a man, named Fred Spence.

DR: What was the context of the conversation? Like what was the...

L: I don't know, it just came out. We were just standing there, and then he just...he just said it. We were drinking at the time, so… [Speaking: Cree]

DR: Luella tells me what she heard Fred say in the Cree language.

DR: What's the direct translation of that?

L: He said um... "How about when we killed that white girl." And I thought white lady or girl. [Speaking: Cree] meaning white woman.

DR: Luella, over the nearly two decades after she heard Fred make this statement, has made a connection between it, and Kerrie Brown.

L: Maybe he's talking about her.

DR: Did you ever ask Fred about what he was talking about at that time?

L: No. Never.

DR: Now was he somebody that you knew, have known your whole life, Fred?

L: I hung around with him for a year or so and. We have a son together. He is 17, but he's passed on now. He got killed over here.

DR: Oh, I'm sorry.

L: Last year.

DR: Last year? Oh, I'm sorry about that.

DR: Luella and Fred's son, along with another teenager, were killed one late evening in Thompson when a vehicle jumped a sidewalk and ran into them as they were walking.

DR: So tell me about Fred. What kind of a person is Fred?

L: He is violent. He's an alcoholic. I think that's why he drinks a lot...even when he came to my son's funeral, he was drunk. Maybe it bothers him. I don't know who he was involved with, but it sounded like he wasn't alone.

DR: He definitely said, 'when we killed the white girl'?

L: Yeah.

DR: So how old is Fred now?

L: I don't know, he's probably about 55, 54. 54, maybe. I don't know.

DR: 54? Okay. Was anyone else present at that conversation?

L: No, I don't remember. I don't think so.

DR: Okay. I know that Jim Brown is very thankful that you came and told him this. I mean we don't know what it means or if it means anything.

L: Yeah, no. That's what I was wondering too. If it means anything because that's all he said. I didn't ask. I just looked at him, and I'm like... I had no idea what he was talking about because I was living on the reserve then. And back then, I was only like… 19? 18, 19?

DR: At the time all this was playing out, Luella and Fred Spence were living in Nelson House, an Indigenous community about an hour west of Thompson. Nelson House, not to be confused with Norway House, the community I visited to learn more about Helen Betty Osborne.

DR: So you've moved to Thompson from Nelson House? And how long have you been here?

L: Eighteen years.

DR: So I'm interested to talk to Fred...But, how do you suggest I try to talk to him?

L: I don't know? I've never talked to Fred since my son was born. So I don't know. I don't know anything about Fred.

DR: When you say Fred was violent...

L: Well, he was abusive to his ex-girlfriend, and he did that to me too.

DR: Do you know what people he was hanging around with at that age — when he would have been in his 20s?

L:I have no idea.

DR: Did any police ever talk to you about this?

L: Nope.

DR: Never?

L: That was the first time I ever mentioned it, when I mentioned it to Mr. Brown.

DR: It's definitely something that the family wants me to look into. So how do you want me to proceed on it? Do you want me to say I heard this from somebody, or do you want me to say I heard from Luella, or do you want me to say I want to know if you… jut without mentioning anything? Like what's the best way to proceed, do you think? And if you don't have any ideas, that's okay too.

L: Well, yeah, you can put my name, sure. Because it was me that said it, and I know what I heard. [Speaking: Cree] "When we killed that white girl..." I wish I could go to Nelson House and ask him questions. But I don't have a vehicle.

DR: I could take you there.

L: Really?

DR: Is that something that would be... is that the right thing to do though?

L: I don't know. I don't know how he would react to it though.

DR: We could probably try to figure a way to do it...but I don't want to put you in any kind of a situation where you feel like it's a dangerous situation for you, so. But we can think about it.

L: Okay.

DR: I'm struck by Luella's quiet composure as she relates her story about Fred. We decide to reconvene again soon.

[Sound: Car door opens and shuts]

DR: I think it's important to note that none of this means anything or is probative of anything, but it's definitely very interesting to me.

[Sound: Car ignition turns over] DR: And police have never spoken to her before. So I'll try to figure out what to do at Nelson House.

DR: I head to the Brown's place to tell them what happened here with Luella.

DR: So Luella said that she might want to go and talk to him.

TB: In person.

DR: In person.

TB: In Cree...

DR: Very credible, very brave...on the first meeting.

TB: Right.

DR: And she stood up and said what she knew. That most respect I can ever give anybody is that they tell me what they know.

TB: Right.

DR: I'm just heading out to Nelson House. Just on my own here. It's a bouncy road. Pretty much going due West at this point. Going to try to talk to Fred Spence. All you can do is ask. And see what the answers are. But...I hope one way or another there's an answer here.

DR: I'll be meeting with Carole Kobliski, who has offered to help me speak to Fred.

DR: Carole...actually has, from time to time, Fred Spence do work for her at her house. And today is one of those days.

DR: People in the north wear many hats: Carol’s been a heavy equipment operator... a health care aid... and does catering on the side. But her main job, which she’s been doing for over a decade now, is serving and protecting the community, as a First Nations Safety Officer.

[Sound: DR’s phone rings]

DR: Hello?

CAROLE KOBLISKI: Hi.

DR: Hi. How are you?

CK: Good.

DR: I'm at the gas station.

CK: Okay, I'll be there right away.

DR: Okay. Great. Thanks.

[Sound: Phone disconnects]

DR: Hello!

CK: Hi! Just follow me.

DR: Carol arrives at our rendezvous point, and guides me along some gravel roads to her house at the end of one of them. There's a collection of boats, ATVs, and other vehicles around the property, and two men working on a massive black boat motor wave as I walk up to Carol, who's waiting beside her new looking extended cab truck. There's a logo on the door that says, "First Nation Safety Officer". In Manitoba, Community Safety Officers are responsible for crime prevention and enforcing band bylaws, working closely alongside the RCMP. Carol's not on duty though, and is wearing denim capri pants and a light white tank top, and has highlighted short brown hair.

CK: So do you want me to go look for Freddy?

DR: Um... we might as well go get him. Can I truck this stuff into your house?

CK: Sure.

DR: This recording stuff.

CK: Yep. Just bring it in.

[Sound: A door in need of oil creaks] CK: Where do you want to set up? You can set up in the living room.

DR: Okay.

DR: I set up my recording equipment and a camera, and Carole returns shortly...without Fred Spence.

CK: Okay. We have to wait, till 6 o'clock.

DR: Oh, okay.

CK: His boss doesn't let him go until 6.

DR: Carole hasn't told Fred I am here or anything about what questions he might be asked. Since we'll have a couple of hours and Carole wanted to take me on a tour of the community, we decide to do that while we're waiting. But first, a bit more about Fred Spence.

DR: What does somebody like Fred Spence do with his time? What's his life like here?

CK: Fred? Well, I know he's a firefighter. He does contracts in the community. He tries to keep himself busy. I know that he's a hard worker.

DR: Ever made any trouble that you know of?

CK Fred? No. I never heard of him making any... he's a humble man. Like he's quiet. He does his thing. But he doesn't go around causing trouble.

DR: Want to go for a little tour then?

CK: Sure.

DR: We move our discussion into Carole's truck, and start the driving tour. The roads are washboard rough at times causing vibrations in the recording. We pass an opening in the trees that looks out onto a pristine looking lake and then continue toward a group of houses.

[Sound: various driving noises]

CK: This area here is Dog Point. Another little bay area.

DR: Doesn't Fred Spence live around here?

CK: He used to.

DR: Oh, ok.

CK: He had a girlfriend over here, has children with another lady here but they separated. And she left him too. Because of the domestic. And the drinking.

DR: We pass rows of houses, some look newer, while others look in disrepair. But all look occupied.

DR: So how many people would live in these houses here?

CK: 10. 15 to a house. There's an overcrowding. And it's happening all over.

DR: This First Nation of 5,000 people has an elder’s care home, an alcohol and drug treatment centre, and a nursing station — but according to Carol much of its infrastructure is inadequate.

CK: We have one baseball field.

DR: Looks like they're playing. That’s good.

CK: The other field there's contaminated.

DR: With what?

CK: Sewage. Underneath. So they can't use that field.

DR: Oh, yeah.

CK: This is the nursing station. It's too small, and there's not enough rooms in there. Especially with what's going on in our community. This is what you call uptown.

DR: This is uptown?

CK: This is uptown. That's the band office.

DR: Right here?

CK: Yep...

DR: We pass an empty lot where there’s a foundation remaining.

CK: And this is where the Northern store used to be. Right at that foundation there...

DR: What happened to it?

CK: Some kids burnt it down.

DR: Northern store is a corporation that traces its roots back to the Northwest Company and Hudson’s Bay Company of the European fur trade in Canada.

DR: So the Northern Store's done.

CK: They're done. We got 'em out of here because they were ripping our people off. The prices were too high, and the interest rate was too high and...

DR: Somebody burnt it down.

CK: Someone burnt it down. They tried to come back and get re-established, but the Chief and council said, no, that's enough. We're building our own. They basically said, oh, you guys won't succeed. And we have it.... Yeah. It's a nice store. This house needs to be torn down. An elder lives there. Oh it just... it just sickens me.

DR: In this place?

CK: Yeah. The walls are so soft, you can go like this, and the walls move, in there. And then you have the gangs putting their name on the houses. This one says Westside and then you have some on the Eastside.

DR: There's gangs here?

CK: Oh yeah. Lots. MOB. NS. You name it.

DR: In a town of 5,000 there's multiple gangs?

CK: Yep. Yep. And they're territorial.

DR: I see a young teenage boy walking along the roadside with what looks like a brass lamp post.

DR: What's this guy got?

CK: See, people walk around with uh golf sticks, hockey sticks and it's a way of protecting themselves because it's so unsafe to walk around in the community. That's what they do. The young people they walk around, trying to protect themselves. It wasn't like that, it was very... it was a safe community. People didn't have to lock their doors, people were always visiting each other. You could go anywhere and have a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, whatever. Bannock... But now it's all like... trying to survive for yourself.

DR: We arrive back at Carole's place. The tour leaves me with the stark awareness, once again, that Indigenous peoples of Northern Manitoba, in communities like Norway and Nelson House, are resourceful and resilient in the face of the many historical and current wrongs that they face. For Carole it's everyday. And no sooner have we arrived, and she's off again.

CK: Okay. I'll go pick him up.

DR: Great. Thank you.

DR: To pick up Fred Spence. I sit in Carole's living room on a sectional leather couch with my recorder running, waiting for their arrival. There's a small aquarium nearby, and the marine blue walls are decorated with stain glass, a large blue model of a ship, and various porcelain angels. And then...

CK: Yeah, he wants to talk to you. [Speaking: Cree] Dave!

DR: Oh, hi.

CK: This is Fred.

DR: Fred, hi, how are you?

FRED SPENCE: Hey, how's it going.

CK: I had to go take him from his work.

DR: I'm David. Nice to see you. Have a seat here.

DR: Fred Spence walks in, followed closely by Carole. He's smaller in stature, wearing yellow fireman's overalls and an orange T-shirt, a well-worn Pittsburgh Pirates baseball hat sunglasses propped on the brim, and has a light mustache. I shake hands with him and we all sit down.

DR: I've been interviewing lots of people, I work for CBC radio, here's my card. And actually Carol was just telling me that you were a twin, no...

FS: A triplet. Yeah.

DR: One of the only triplets in Manitoba, or something?

FS: Well, there's another set. All boys.

CK: Belinda.

FS: Belinda's.

CK: My sister-in-law. She's got triplets too.

DR: Ah, okay! Okay. And you just turned 50?

FS: 50, yeah.

DR: And when's your birthday then?

FS: February 3rd, 67. Centennial day.

DR: So you're a volunteer fire department guy?

FS: Yeah. Not volunteering.

CK: He's always done that.

FS: I go out like... make some money.

CK: Every summer, eh?

FS: Every summer.

DR: So are you paid?

FS: I get paid, yeah.

DR: Because I was volunteer...

CK: You're only allowed 15 minutes. If he's not back in 15 minutes he's fired. [LAUGHTER]

DR: Ah, okay. Okay. So I've been doing a lot of interviews about a project for CBC radio. I do podcasts. It's an investigative podcast. And actually your name came up, and I want to talk to you about something. Um, it was a conversation that this person told me about that you'd had with them. 15 to 17 years ago. The person told me it was a disturbing conversation. And I just wanted to see if you remembered it. Can you remember, a conversation where you would've disturbed somebody? With something you said,

FS: No.

DR: So the person said that you said in Cree, "When we killed that white girl."

FS: White girl?

DR: Yeah.

FS: I never said that.

DR: Do you remember anything about that, or saying that kind of thing?

FS: No. Not even...

DR: In Cree, it would've been said.

FS: I don't even remember talking to anybody like that.

DR: It was white girl or white lady. I don't know in Cree what it would've been but, when we killed this white girl. That's what this person remembers, and it has bothered them, they said, forever, and I said, okay who was it? And they said that it was you that said this. You don't remember that conversation?

FS: No. I'd never say that to anybody.

DR: You never killed a white girl?

CK: No. As if. [LAUGHTER] No, no.

[Carol says something to Fred Spence in Cree], interspersed with - "Thompson", "horse stables", "Brown".

FS: No.

DR: You don't know anything about the Brown case? Kerrie Ann Brown?

FS: No.

DR: No? So the conversation to you, you don't remember it at all.

FS: Nope.

DR: Okay. I know it's a weird question, but I had to ask, you know? Someone tells me that, and I have to ask. Here, I'll show you a picture of this girl. Kerrie Ann. I'll show you a picture of Kerrie Ann here.

CK: I've never seen a picture of her.

DR: Yeah, just to sort of, maybe you've seen the...

CK: I've heard the story of her.

DR: Here she is.... that's Kerrie Ann there.

FS: Kerrie Ann? Oh... hmm. First time I've seen her.

CK: How old was she?

DR: She was 15. That might be a little younger. I have another one though, I'll show you. This is the one that was most recent to the time she was killed. And they found multiple DNA on her.

FS: Is that the same one?

DR: Yep.

FS: Hmm.

DR: Did you ever hear anything about that murder?

FS: I seen it on a bulletin board.

DR: You did?

FS: That picture.

DR: You've seen this picture.

FS: Yeah. Missing. Says ‘missing’.

DR: Did you ever hear anyone in the community, or any of the communities talk about that murder?

FS: No.

CK: So they did find DNA on her?

DR: They did...individuals that had contact with her, so she was... anyway, they had contact with her.

CK: Oh. Okay.

DR: And they had one individual… they pulled in, they had a prelim for him. And it was thrown out. Yeah. Not enough evidence.

CK: But they're from Thompson?

DR: That fellow was from Thompson. Yeah?

CK: When did that happen? Like what year?

DR: That was 30 years ago, 31 years ago so that was... 1986 in October.

CK: Oh, okay.

DR: Yeah, so you would've been like... 20?

FS: In 86? Something like that, eh? 50 years old.

CK: Yeah, you must've been about 19 / 20.

DR: Did you drive at that time? Did you have your own vehicle?

FS: No. Don't even have a driver's' licence.

DR: Never got one or just don't have one.

FS: Never got it.

CK: He's a passenger all the time.

[LAUGHTER]

CK: Or he walks a lot.

DR: Oh really? So you're always driven by someone else? Okay. Well, I don't have any other questions, I was just wondering whether you remembered that conversation and what the nature of it was. If can remember what that utterance meant.

FS: Hmm.

DR: When we, WE, killed that white girl, or white lady. And there was no other context given. Like the person never asked you about it afterwards. So it may be that the person's mistaken... maybe misheard.

FS: Probably.

DR: If I get any more information about it, I'll let you know. You've got my card there, you can call me.

FS: Yep. Somebody talking about it, I'll give you a call.

DR: Yeah. Has anyone ever asked you about this before? Has anyone ever talked to you about this case before?

FS: No.

DR: Do you have a contact number or email that I can...

CK: You can just get ahold of me and I'll get ahold of him. Eh Fred?

FS: Yeah.

CK: Yeah.

DR: Thanks very much. It was nice to meet you.

FS: Yep.

DR: And thanks for helping.

CK: I'll take him back. Otherwise he'll be fired.

DR: I'll be here Carol.

DR: I wonder about what I’ve just witnessed as Carol takes Fred back to work. But, I decide to wait until Carol returns and gives me her opinion before I go too far in my thinking.

TB: Hi, Luella.

L: Hi.

DR: So you sure you want to go do this?

L: Ummmm ..... I'm sure, but I'm not sure.

RIDGEN SOT

DR: It's up to you really if you want to go...see Fred and ask him this yourself.

L: I would like to confront him because, you know like it goes into my head sometimes and it bothered me for so long. Like, I don't know why I didn't say anything before. Myself. Until I met his dad and like I told you, how .. how hurt he is still. And .... and finally ... I finally blurted out to him.

DR: Alright. Well we can go. I think I'm satisfied that you want to do it. And I'll try to make it as safe as possible. You know people in the reserve, right?

L: Yeah. I know everybody. I wonder how he'll react when I get there. And I could just picture him swearing and cursing in Cree probably.

DR: So you have everything? You're ready to go now. You want to get anything else? Or...

L: No.

DR: Okay. Here's some water here if you want. It's for you.

DR: We drive north out of Thompson.

DR: How you doing back there Trevor?

TB: Good.

DR: Feel good. Don't feel sea sick back there?

TB: No. No no. Just checking out the highway. Checking out the road ahead. Never...never been up here before.

DR: So we're just outside Nelson House now. What do you want to go to? What...are we...what's the strategy here?

L: Go ask Fred what and why he said that?

DR: Okay.

L: You'll see this one spot where the leaves change colour. It looks like a million dollar painting. It's so beautiful.

TB: Nice.

L: Oh, go straight.

DR: Oh, straight. Sorry. I guess if you see him, you can just get them to come over to the car. It might be even the better way to do it if we roll the window down and just talk to him that way.

L: Yeah. On your side.

DR: On my side. Yeah. So let's do that. I won't...I won't open the door there. Or the window on your side.

DR: We cross a washboard road over a causeway and continue through the community, turning as per Luella’s instructions.

L: This was my house here. I liked this area because the school is there. I wish I could just burn that house before I left. [chuckle] Light it up and leave.

DR: Then, in the doorway of a house to our right on the side of a hill. Luella sees a couple of figures standing in a doorway, and one of them is holding a mug.

L: Look. I think that's him right there.

DR: Oh! He's in the doorway there.

L: Yeah. He's in the doorway. Yeah, that is him. Looks like he's drinking coffee.

DR: Turn around?

L: Yeah.

DR: I continue down the road a short distance and pull over, then turn around pointing back toward the house where we can still see Fred standing ahead.

DR: Do you want me just to stop and get him to come over?

L: Yeah. Sure.

DR: Right here?

L: Right here. Just turn in there.

DR: Stop here?

L: No. Just turn in right there.

DR: Okay. Do you want me just to sit here or do you want me to get out?

TB: Think he'll come over to the vehicle?

L: Yeah. Call him over. [VERY QUIET]

DR: Hello. How are you?

FRIEND OF FRED: Good.

DR: Is Fred here?

FRIEND OF FRED: Fred?

DR: Spence.

FRIEND OF FRED: Yeah. Standing right there.

DR: Oh. Just wondering if we could chat with him for a second.

FRIEND OF FRED: Yeah.

DR: Fred. Remember me? I came to talk to you over at Carole's. How are you?

FS: Good.

DR: I chatted with you last time about that statement. And Luella who I think you know.

FS: Luella.

DR: Luella.

FS: Yeah.

DR: She...she says that she can remember you saying this thing and I don't...

FS: No no. I’d never say that. No.

L: Well, when you use to live on Hillside, right? After that weekend we drank and...

FS: I’d never say that.

L: We were sitting outside and then you said, you just said it out. You said [Speaking: Cree]

FS: Her. She's my worst nightmare. I couldn't get along with her, right.

L: Worst nightmare...[underneath her breath]

DR: Okay.

FS: I never say that.

L: I'm not trying to cause any trouble or anything Fred. But I know what I heard.

FS: I’d never say that.

L: I know what I heard.

FS: Well, I’d never say that I said.

L: It was like 17 years ago. At least.

FS: I never said that.

DR: You think you could have been mistaken about what he said Luella or...

FS: Oh, we broke up long time ago, right?

L: That's not the point, okay. Oh god, don't even bring that up.

FS: I’d never say that.

DR: We seem to have reached an impasse with each side remembering their own version. It was about 17 years ago, and Luella says they had been drinking. She’s also the only person so far I’ve heard this story from so, it’s difficult to go further.

DR: You can't remember saying it?

FS: No.

DR: You say you never said it.

FS: No.

DR: You never had anything to do with ...

FS: No.

DR: Kerrie Brown or...

FS: No.

DR: Hurting any white woman or...

FS: No, no. I’d never say that.

L: I wouldn't say anything for nothing, either.

FS: We broke up a long time ago. Living on my own.

L: Oh fuck off with that bullshit. I know what I heard him say. I'm not trying to get back at him for about anything. But I know what I heard and I know it came from his mouth.

DR: Well let's...let's call it then I think. Are you okay if we go? Okay. Thanks.

FS: Okay. No problem man.

DR: Thank you.

FS: Alright.

DR: Bravery. Really respect it. And thanks for telling what you know. That's the best thing that you can do.

L: Yeah. You're welcome.

DR: Maybe something will come of it...

L: Yeah. I hope so.

LL: You've been listening to the CBC podcast, Someone Knows Something. This latest season has host David Ridgen and looking at the 1986 murder of teenager Kerrie Brown. But that is our program for today. I'm Laura Lynch. Thanks for listening to the summer edition of The Current.

The Current Transcript for August 6, 2019

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