Victims of El Paso attack could sue 8chan forum linked to alleged gunman, extremism expert says

Guest: Susan Peter Svarzbein, Mark Pitcavage

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of bell ringing]

LL: A bell rang out 29 times in El Paso, Texas last night, remembering not only the 20 who died this weekend in a mass shooting in that city, but also nine others left dead after a shooting in Dayton, Ohio over the course of one day. In El Paso on Saturday morning, a 21-year-old man armed with a semi-automatic rifle was taken into custody after the shooting at a Wal-Mart close to the border with Mexico. Mexico's foreign minister said seven Mexican citizens were among those killed. Authorities said the shooter had written an anti-immigrant manifesto and they're treating the massacre as an act of domestic terrorism. Maribel Latina who was at the shopping complex with her 10-year-old daughter was among the dozens injured. She spoke from her hospital bed.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I saw him reload his gun. And he just cold-bloodedly came straight at us and shot us. He shot eight rounds. I had to pretend I was dead. He shot eight more rounds and all I could say is, God, please take care of my children and please don't let him do anything to my daughter. It's not fair that somebody from God knows where just showed up and did something so ugly to us with so much hatred. I felt him right next to him. He was right next to me. He wasn't breathing hard. He was the calmest person ever. He didn't say anything. Just plain hatred and just anger.

LL: Across the country in the early hours of Sunday in Dayton, Ohio, a gunman wearing body armour shot into a crowd outside a nightclub district before being killed by police less than a minute later. Among the dead was the gunman's sister. Police haven't given a motive. In the wake of the two shootings and amid criticism of the role his own rhetoric is playing in the rise of far right sentiment, President Donald Trump addressed the nation this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: The shooter in El Paso posted a manifesto online consumed by racist hate. In one voice our nation must condemn racism, bigotry and white supremacy. These sinister ideologies must be defeated. Hatred warps the mind, ravages the heart and devours the soul. In the two decades since Columbine, our nation has watched with rising horror and dread as one mass shooting has followed another. We cannot allow ourselves to feel powerless. We can and will stop this evil contagion. We must seek real bipartisan solutions. We must reform our mental health laws to better identify mentally disturbed individuals who may commit acts of violence and make sure those people not only get treatment, but when necessary involuntary confinement. Mental illness and hatred pulls the trigger, not the gun. We must make sure that those judged to pose a grave risk to public safety, do not have access to firearms.

LL: In a country where mass shootings are a regular occurrence, these two back to back massacres have left a nation reeling and yet again trying to come to terms with the violence. Peter Svarzbein is a city representative for district one in El Paso and he was at one of the vigils last night. He's in El Paso this morning. And just a note, these interviews were recorded earlier today before President Trump spoke. My sympathies for what's happened in your city. I'm wondering what it was like being at that vigil last night.

PETER SVARZBEIN: There's a lot of emotions and people are really very much processing I think what's going on right now. El Paso is is one big family. You know we're vomprised of a very unique geographic region where we have three states, two countries and one heart here between far west Texas, northern Mexico Ciudad Juarez and southern New Mexico and Las Cruces. And so we're close because we have each other here and what what occurred here this past weekend and on Saturday is really shocking for a lot of people here. And it's one thing because we're used to being with each other here and we're like a family. You talk to somebody when you meet them from El Paso, whether they live in Austin or they live in New York or they live in Miami, heck if they even lived in Toronto, the first question you would ask each other is what high school did you go to? And chances are you might know somebody that also went to that high school as well. And that's who we are. Being out here in the desert, we value those connections and we understand that life can be hard, but it's family and its friends and it's those personal connections that make you a community and make you strong.

LL: The particular nature of El Paso is as you say, it is two nations really being right across the river from Ciudad Juarez and the great number of Latinos living in the city. The suspect posted an online manifesto calling the attack a response to and this is a quote, "the Hispanic invasion of Texas." Given the nature of the people who live in your city, how are people reacting to that or processing that?

PETER SVARZBEIN: I think in different ways. You know for your viewers, El Paso and Juarez comprise a border plex, a metroplex area of close to three million people, 1.5 million in Juarez and close to 900,000 in El Paso County. We're about 85 percent Hispanic and we're a city that's been very diverse and tolerant. We're the first city in the Confederacy to have desegregated in the 1960s. It was a city councilman from my district Bert Williams that did that. And this idea of the borders and opportunity and the things that cross people, family, music, culture is something that's very real. My father was an immigrant to this country. He came from Argentina to do his medical residency in New York. He met my mother there and they chose to move to El Paso in the late 70s to start his family and his practice because he wanted a safe and warm and bilingual and compassionate city to start. And he got the best of both worlds. He had the economic opportunities of the United States with the cultural life and vitality of Latino America. And that's a story that's true here. I couldn't imagine what he would be saying right now. These kind of actions from this individual is a slap in the face of everything that our community is. Our mayor talks about that there's no way that this shooter could have been from El Paso. And what he means and what we understand here is that our community breeds love. Our community breeds compassion, you know from the richest of the rich to the poorest of the poor, we all have different reasons for wanting to cross our border. Our border brings us together. It does not separate us. And that's something that's like baked into our DNA here. I think it's very hard sometimes until you're here to understand that and that's our reality here and we love it.

LL: I have been there to El Paso and Juarez and I have crossed that bridge and I understand what you're saying about how closely linked those communities are. In that context then I need to ask you about the tweets that President Trump has issued this morning. I'll just read them out. We cannot let those killed in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio die in vain. Likewise for those so seriously wounded, we can never forget them and those many who came before them. Republicans and Democrats must come together and get strong background checks, perhaps marrying this legislation with desperately needed immigration reform. I'm wondering what your reaction is to those sentiments.

PETER SVARZBEIN: You know I would like to say the issue of immigration reform and both are not necessary that wasn't like that was that long ago, but we've been talking about comprehensive immigration reform in this country for decades now. And the issue of assault of weapons and common sense gun reform is something we've been talking about decades too. Columbine was in 1999. So I'm sorry. It's hard to think about what he's proposing here because so often what comes from him is doesn't help the situation here. You know I can tell you being an elected official on the local level, your words have consequences and your words have a lot of power. I wish our president would understand that too. I think both of those things need to be addressed and need to be addressed by this country for a very long time and they should be taken with seriousness. I don't think that you should be playing politics with those subjects right now.

LL: Alright Mr. Svarzbein, I appreciate you making the time to speak to us in these difficult hours. Thank you very much.

PETER SVARZBEIN: Thank you.

LL: Peter Svarzbein is a city councillor for district one in El Paso, Texas and we reached him there. The motivations of the gunman in the devastating killing of 20 people in the El Paso Wal-Mart have critics looking at anti-immigrant rhetoric that is coming from the White House and the far right. The four page manifesto allegedly written by the suspect was filled with hate against Mexicans and also warned the media not to blame President Donald Trump's words for his actions. Mark Pitcavage grew up in El Paso. He is senior research fellow for the Centre on Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League. And we reached him in Ohio. Hello.

MARK PITCAVAGE: Hello. Thank you for having me.

LL: What did you think when you heard about the shooting that happened in your hometown?

MARK PITCAVAGE: Well I was shocked. I unfortunately track a lot of extremists related violence in the United States, but this particular attack occurred one and a half miles from the house where I grew up and that area there is intimately familiar to me. And so it took on a personal, as well as a professional meaning.

LL: But there are a lot of cities in Texas though with large Hispanic communities. Why would El Paso be a target?

MARK PITCAVAGE: Well we don't yet know the you know the inner workings of the of the shooter. He's talking to police, so presumably more will come out. But the one thing that has differentiated El Paso this past year from many other cities in Texas is that it has been repeatedly featured in the news because of immigration and border crossing related controversies, such as child separation policies, such as the detainment of asylum seekers in camps and facilities, people drowning trying to cross the Rio Grande to reach U.S. soil and other related controversies. So El Paso, which despite being a significant border city, is not typically in the news at the national level, but it has been in the news a lot this past year and that has greatly raised its profile.

LL: Ok. Let's talk a bit about this so-called manifesto. What did you think when you heard that the shooter allegedly left this outlining his beliefs and reasons for his attack?

MARK PITCAVAGE: Well what I had heard was that you know he had left this document on the website 8 Chan, which is a sort of repulsive website that previous mass shooters, including someone who tried to shoot up a synagogue in California this past summer and the Australian white supremacist who shot up the mosques in New Zealand also left manifestos at the same website. And so, you know in that sense it did not surprise me that someone, you know this is the latest person trying to commit such a heinous act would post a justification for their actions on the website 8 Chan.

LL: I also wondered this particular claim of the gunman saying, telling the media not to blame President Trump for his actions. What do you make of that?

MARK PITCAVAGE: Well I think there are two possible interpretations, both of which may in fact be true at the same time. I think on the one hand the shooter may have wanted to not wanted someone to think that his actions had been influenced by someone else, but was saying that in order to suggest he was doing this on his own, with his own ideas and his own plan. At the same time too I think he may have anticipated that there would be criticism of Donald Trump because of the president's long record of anti-immigrant rhetoric and may have wanted to try to forestall you know any criticism or attacks on the president for that rhetoric.

LL: I'm going to keep going in talking about Trump and his rhetoric. I want to play you a clip of Trump's remarks at a rally that took place this past May in Florida. Listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: When you have 15,000 people marching up and you have hundreds and hundreds of people and you have two or three border security people that are brave and great and don't forget, we don't let them and we can't let them use weapons. We can't. Other countries do. We can't. I would never do that, but how do you stop these people. You can't. There's no. That's only in the panhandle you can get away with that statement.

LL: Now just to explain a little bit there. The president started laughing and that what you didn't hear is someone from the audience shouted out him, "shoot them," as a way to stop people from crossing the Mexican border. And he said you can only get away with that in the panhandle. What do you think of that response by the president?

MARK PITCAVAGE: Well I think there's a high level, not just from the president, but from another number of politicians and a number of non-politicians of demonizing immigrants and asylum seekers in this country and I think it needs to stop. It can only harm, it does no good whatsoever. A family that has travelled a dangerous route from Guatemala to try to get the United States to seek asylum for their family, which is by the way a legal thing to do or someone trying simply to cross the border to find work, so they can send money back to their family in northern Mexico. You know all of these things are, they're not terrorists crossing the border. They're not narcos crossing the border. These are people in desperate circumstances and we need to feel compassion and understanding and not demonize them.

LL: I also want to ask you then about the president's comments this morning linking gun control or background checks that the Democrats have long called for with immigration reform, saying that those two things must be done together. What's your reaction?

MARK PITCAVAGE: There's no need for combining those two. That sounds rather opportunistic. Gun background checks, which are widely supported by the vast majority of people in the United States, more could be passed any time Congress wanted to pass them. The House would be willing to do it in a heartbeat. It would be up to the Republican controlled Senate. There's no need to try to link that to any other bill or measure.

LL: So what do you think the president's getting at here?

MARK PITCAVAGE: Well I think he likely was you know doing something like that might help him get part of his own immigration agenda passed, if people were to try to do that and I think he was just trying to create some leverage.

LL: Alright. Hust going back to this idea of right wing extremism, is right wing anti-immigration violence along the border with Mexico something new?

MARK PITCAVAGE: No. No it's not. There have been, it's not a common phenomenon,b ut there have been other violent incidents, often related to border vigilantes. These are far right groups that take it upon themselves to conduct armed patrols along the border with Mexico. A couple tried to do that along the border with Canada, but it wasn't very interesting to them. But in Mexico there have been instances where people have been detained against their will or even assaulted and then there was also one case in Arizona in 2009 where a group of border vigilantes actually conducted an armed home invasion to rob the family there to get money to finance their activities and ended up killing several of the occupants of that house.

LL: Well we will see what happens going forward. I thank you very much for your time this morning.

MARK PITCAVAGE: I appreciate the opportunity to speak.

LL: Mark Pitcavage is a senior research fellow for the Center on Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League. He was in Ohio.

Someone Knows Something: Season 5, Episode 6

[Music: Theme]

LL: This summer we're playing some of the best of CBC podcasts. Last week we began the latest season of Someone Knows Something. In season 5, David Ridgee travels to Thompson, Manitoba to investigate the 1986 murder of Kerrie Brown. This is Episode 6, The Call. And a warning: this episode contains mature subject matter. Listener discretion is advised.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A phone connects]

KATHLEEN GOLD: Hello.

DR: Hi, is this Kathleen?

KG: Yes.

DR: Hi Kathleen, it's Dave Ridgen calling. How are you?

KG: I'm good, thanks. You?

DR: Kathleen Gold is Trevor Brown’s cousin…

KG: So Kerrie's mom and my mom are sisters. And... Kerrie was only like a month older than me.

DR: Kathleen lives in Western Canada, where she cares, pretty much full-time, for her twin daughters, both on the autism spectrum. She’s also one of the administrators of a Facebook page dedicated to the Kerrie Brown case.

KG: Well, I think the biggest information that I could offer that's more than what Trevor would be able to tell you is I've had a personal Facebook conversation with a retired RCMP officer that used to work...in Thompson...he's opened up to me quite a bit and given me some information and his thoughts and feelings and stuff. It took a while for him to open up to me until he could trust me.

DR: If I could ask about what he was saying or alleging in his conversations with you — this RCMP officer?

KG: He was saying like we should request a national inquiry…

DR: This retired officer could be a gold-mine of information. Kathleen cites a note he wrote to her on Facebook about evidence that he says was available to RCMP investigators at the time but...

DR: But nobody wanted to do anything with it. The investigators had appeared to have their minds made up that they already had their suspect. So I don't know if it's true or not true, but that's what he that's his position. To us it's like was there some kind of...mishandling of the case…? Like I don't know. I've received personal tips...on Facebook. We've encouraged people to call in, and they've said that they have. And...they say like no RCMP officer called them. Nobody called them. Nobody came by to talk to them. So it feels like what he's saying is true like they don't want to follow up on leads because it's such an old case.

DR: To back this last point up, Kathleen reads me one of the more revealing public posts made by her retired RCMP source.

KG: He said, “These facts have been known by the RCMP since day one actually prior to the body being found. I was ordered to turn over all of my sources of information. I was ordered not to follow up on any leads. Putting this in writing is the hardest thing I've ever done. This family deserves closure after all these years. Jean-Marc Villeneuve. RCMP.

DR: And is it Jean like J E A N?

KG: Yep. And then Villeneuve V I L L E N E U V E.

DR: Where does he live in Ontario now? Do you know?

KG: Ummm...Sarnia I think.

DR: Let's go see Jean-Marc.

[Sound: Car door opens]

DR: Hello!

JEAN-MARC VILLENEUVE: Hello! Finally meet somebody face-to -face.

DR: Jean-Marc, thanks for doing this.

DR: Jean-Marc Villeneuve seems taller than his six feet to me. Serious, with glasses and short white hair. He doesn’t come off as reckless.

JMV: Nobody really knows what I do for a living, but…

DR: To be sure it’s him, I ask to see his ID, and he shows me his Veteran’s Affairs card, a retired RCMP member’s badge with number, and later some photos of him in his red serge RCMP uniform.

JMV: Can I get you a coffee or something?

DR: Yeah, I’m…

DR: Villeneuve is who he says he is, and I’ve confirmed with other sources that he worked in Thompson for the RCMP at the time Kerrie Brown was murdered.

JMV: I posted it on Facebook. I have nothing to hide...

DR: Villeneuve makes some coffee, and we move outside...

[Sound DR and JMV move around as a coffee maker is heard in the background]

JMV: I was a member of the RCMP for 30 years. I was posted in Thompson, Manitoba from December ‘85 to January 1990.

DR: The remote, demanding work was made more difficult by the fact Villeneuve felt his Indigenous background was a potential source of friction between him and his colleagues.

JMV: I'm First Nation. My dad’s Ojibwe. But I was brought up in Ottawa — brought up in a French-Canadian environment. I didn't speak any English until I joined the RCMP.

DR: Do you think you were any further accepted because of your status, or maybe even less?

JMV: Nope. I didn't even bring it up when I was up north because for any NCO or officer, if you were First Nation, you were worse than lice. The RCMP knowledge were all Indians are lazy, all they want to do is sleep, and drink, and get drunk. Basically, any special constables we'd have were treated like dirt. And a lot them would just leave their guns and leave, and go back to their communities because they were treated like dirt. You cannot forget, Thompson was an extremely violent community. Every scene we went to was either a knife, or an axe, or a 2 X 4, or something.

DR: What's the explanation that you might have for that?

JMV: It was an accumulation of violence over the years, being a mining town...Basically, a lot of people from throughout Canada. A lot of people that went there to make money quick. And what do they do on their days off — was drink, use drugs, and fight. And it had been like that since the creation of Thompson, but it progressively got worse and worse and worse.

DR: Villeneuve says he was not officially involved in Kerrie’s investigation, but that initially, in the very early stages right after she had disappeared, he was pitching in on it. And that included being called to the crime scene on the day Kerrie was discovered.

DR: How fast were you out there after Kerrie Ann had been found.

JMV: I was there late afternoon, early evening. We were all brought out there, the entire detachment, and we did a structured search of the area. We did what we could, but the dog master had already found some clothing and some other stuff, and we were kind of useless cause it was so contaminated.

DR: Anything else found other than clothing?

JMV: Not that I remember. Not by myself.

DR: Can you describe what you heard or saw about the crime scene?

JMV: By what I could see by the footprints, the car prints, and everything else, it was totally contaminated in more ways than one. It was like... too many people had gone through it, too many people had seen it. I never saw the body. I wasn't there when they found the body or they moved the body. And they moved it awfully quick, which I really didn't understand that part either. All I know is, I had heard that it was a very violent scene, and she had been sexually assaulted and her head crushed. That’s all I knew. In regards to the crime scene, the other problem was… the RCMP, again because of budgets, would re-use body bags. So you were suppose to wash'em and re-use'em. In those days, you can't forget, all we had was hair, fibre, blood, and anything that was found on the body. But it's pretty hard to have good samples of anything if the body bags are contaminated. And the body bag … somewhere in the file, I haven't read it, but I was told....it was said they found...black hairs...because of contamination...

DR: This is the first that I’ve heard — even second-hand — of contaminated body bags and black hairs. If hairs were found, were they included in evidence or discounted? Upon finding a body, procedure at the time from my understanding, was to bag remains in a new, clean, translucent or transparent bag with a zipper, and then put that bag into the traditional black rubber bag with another zipper. So, two bags one inside the other. The black bags, Villeneuve says, were re-used. We still need to get our hands on Kerrie’s autopsy...The medical examiner’s office in Winnipeg actually refused Trevor’s request for it, so he’s filed an appeal.

JMV: After the murder, I started getting calls from my sources, and they were going in a direction which was basically three kids, which were known to me and quite violent.

DR: There were three men from ages 17 to early 20s at the time — two of them were brothers and the third was a man who goes by the name Eagle. For legal reasons, I can't reveal them at this time.

JMV: There was an incident the weekend before with Donnie Fisher and those three gentlemans in a van where Donnie had to pull his service revolver and call for backup, and it was a very, very violent situation. These kids didn't care and they were ready to kill. There was no if, buts or maybe about it. If Donnie wouldn’t have pulled his service revolver, they would have killed them.

DR: So a report would have be written every time...

JMV: Not in those days.

DR: Oh, so no service revolver report.

JMV: No. There would have been… basically the kids were picked up for I think it was an obstruction of justice and something else, and they were released the next day.

DR: I’ve put in several calls to former RCMP member Donnie Fisher to try to corroborate Villeneuve’s story. Fisher now lives in Northern Canada, but so far, nothing back.

DR: Do you know their ages at the time? How old?

JMV: At the time, they would have been anywhere from 17 to 19.

DR: I push for more information about the two brothers, and the other fellow named Eagle. I’ve never heard of them before either. Villeneuve says they lived in Thompson at the time of Kerrie’s murder, but had also lived in a Metis community that surrounded Norway House.

JMV: All three lived in Thompson. When they got in trouble, they went to Norway House. They went back to their communities, and we had to haul them back.

DR: I have no idea if any of these men have any knowledge of Kerrie’s murder. The criminal records that I am able to find for them from the late 80s and early 1990s reveal drug, theft and assault charges. His brother Keith has a shorter rap sheet with no assault charges. The last known address that I can find for one of them is in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario where, in 2015, he was charged with assaulting a man with a beer can. Villeneuve also says that the three drove around in a white-ish van — one that often looked grey with grime.

JMV: Every time we dealt with them it was violent. And they did have a van. And I remember them having an air mattress in the back of the van because I searched it enough times.

DR: An air mattress. I wonder if it was like the one used for traction, to get a vehicle out of the mud next to where Kerrie was killed? It’s an intriguing detail, but for me, it’s far from evidence. Owning a van and a mattress and having a history of run-ins with the police, does not necessarily make someone a suspect in Kerrie’s murder. I’ll be looking into the three men Villeneuve mentioned later, but will do so with a high degree of skepticism.

JMV: Basically, the information I was getting it was in regard to the van, and my sources were telling me that. So I wrote it up, brought it to Dennis Heald, who was in charge of the investigation. He said 'we have a suspect. I don't want to see, I don't want to hear your stuff'. So I gave him the information. He basically tore it up, shredded it, and threw it out. I said 'you can't do that'. He said 'as of today, you have no more sources. All your sources are turned over to us. We will deal with them. You will not deal with any more sources. And nobody in the detachment will deal with sources except us'.

DR: I’ve heard that Dennis Heald is ill with Parkinson’s disease and may not be able to talk to me. If Villeneuve’s description of events here is accurate, I’ll need to speak to someone who was in charge at the time. Perhaps John Tost?

JMV: Because we were told to work on our files, basically conclude them, and that was it. The major case manager’s theory was that you have 72 hours to find a suspect. After that, it becomes a computer dump. Everybody who has been tasked to do something is only tasked to do one thing and one thing alone. And you must follow those guidelines. It was business. It was business. It all had to do, at the time, with the senior officers, their budgets…

DR: Major Case Management is a system that came into practice in the 1980s and 90s — centralizing and standardizing police investigations into major crimes. Villeneuve says that this resulted in a heavy reliance on databases and statistical information, as opposed to the more hands-on, collaborative approach that police used in the past.

JMV: When I first arrived there, any homicide, any strange death, we all did as a detachment. It was all hands on deck. Basically, we all reached into our bags of who we could talk to, to find out what was happening in town and what had happened.

DR: I don’t get the sense that Villeneuve has an axe to grind here...

JMV: We had no real information during this time…

DR: The Brown case seems important to him, close to his heart, and it’s clear he’s been holding this information he thinks can help for a long time. And he hasn’t yet told me what could be the most important thing he has.

JMV: During this time, there was a call that had come in... and … the telecoms took the call. And the gentleman was talking about a murder...he was talking about all kinds of information to her. And the guy hung up. He was paranoid. But ...being a good OCC, she basically clipped that part of it and kept it...

DR: On tape? On a tape?

JMV: on tape because it was something of interest. It was early morning when she got the call.

DR: So it would’ve been early morning Friday morning?

JMV: Correct.

DR: It would’ve been early morning Friday.

DR: Not even the Brown family knew Kerrie was missing early Friday morning. She wasn’t reported missing until later on Friday afternoon. That’s when the posters started going up, according to everyone I’ve spoken to. Kerrie’s body wasn’t discovered until Saturday at midday. So, this call talking about a murder came in after she disappeared, before she was known to be missing, and over 24 hours before it was known that she was murdered.

JMV: So she followed up as much as she could. She documented everything. She kept the tape. And there wasn't much more she could do.

DR: She was a civilian?

JMV: A civilian OCC.

DR: A civilian operator working at the RCMP’s Operational Communications Centre or OCC.

JMV: And from there she had gone home…

DR: Once Kerrie was found, Villeneuve says, the phone operator connected her murder to the phone call she received, and went into the RCMP HQ. That Saturday was her day off, but she knew the information she had could be important.

JMV: Anyway, they found a body. And that's when...she came into the office, she grabbed the tape, she grabbed the file, she went to John Tost and Dennis. And she said 'you gotta listen to this. You've gotta listen to it...I taped it….

DR: Jean Marc Villeneuve says he overheard an argument between Jon Tost and Dennis Heald about the call near his desk at the Thompson detachment at that time.

DR: Do you recall seeing John Tost and Dennis Heald at the time, arguing?

JMV: Yes.

DR: And it was related to that phone call?

JMV: It was related to that phone call.

DR: Okay. At that time. But you may not have understood all the details you were hearing.

JMV: I didn't understand all the details because I wasn't privileged to it…

DR: Afterwards, as details became filled in by his conversations with the phone operator, he says he realized what that conversation was about.

JMV: They didn’t want to hear about it. They didn’t want to know about it.

DR: I ask Villeneuve if he can put me in touch with this telecoms operator. Maybe she knows more. Maybe she still has a tape of the call. The voice. But according to Villeneuve, she may have moved East, perhaps working for RCMP again, which could make it difficult for her to speak out.

DR: to your knowledge, no other calls that came in. Just that one call?

JMV: I don't know if anything else came in because everything was streamlined towards major case management. So we knew nothing about anything happening. So that is basically what I remember of that. But the call’s voice would have identified the person.

DR: But you couldn't trace the call?

JMV: You could not trace the call at the time.

DR: Interesting! What is it that's making you talk about this stuff in this way now?

JMV: Oh, I've been talking about it for the last 30 years. People are afraid of the RCMP. People have been wanting to talk about it for decades, nobody listens. Number one, nobody believes it. The RCMP couldn't be that bad…

DR: How much to believe Villeneuve? I’ve rarely met the officer — even a retired officer — who would speak this candidly about an investigation. I asked Villeneuve if he had any official problems with the RCMP, and he sent me documents showing a dispute over the handling of an informant. An internal RCMP investigation was conducted, charging Villeneuve with disobeying an order, but the case was eventually dropped, and Villeneuve returned to work, but retired a few years later, due to health issues. I can’t imagine why a phone call like the one he described from someone who may have known about a murder, would be ignored by the officers investigating Kerrie Brown’s case. The only way to know for sure is to speak to the officers themselves. Of the two original lead investigators, I’ll try John Tost.

JMV: John Tost, as far as I know, is doing now doing … what are they called …. those test, lie detector tests. That's what he's doing now.

[Sound: Rushing water from a sink]

DR: Polygraph test. Polygrapher…

[Sound: A phone connecting

JOHN TOST: Polygraph, John Tost speaking.

DR: Hey John, it’s Dave Ridgen calling. Sorry I didn’t get your call there.

JT: Yeah, no problem...

DR: Constable Janna Amirault declined to put me in touch with the original investigators on Kerrie’s case. But I was able to get in touch with John Tost, and eventually we connect for an interview.

DR: So you’re still working for RCMP, right?

JT: Yes, yes, yeah. I am. Yeah.

DR: And you’re in polygraph department?

JT: Yeah, I am. Yeah. This is my 17th year of polygraph, but… my work has been split between plain clothes and uniform...….But when Kerrie Ann was murdered. I was on.....the Thompson General Investigations Section. So looked after street-level drugs, major crime, that sort of stuff taking place inside the city. By the time I got there, by the time that thing happened, I had 12 years experience.

DR: Okay.

DR: Before getting to the phone call received around the time that Kerrie disappeared, I want to get a sense of what Tost might remember about the case and perhaps answer some of the other questions that have been percolating.

DR: Okay. And so what do you remember about the case.

JT: In terms of what I do recall, obviously right off the top, is just the horrific nature of it. I was the first member that went out to the scene that day. I was working that afternoon. And we received a call that a girl's body had been found, appeared to be a murder victim. And we knew, of course, Kerrie Ann was missing. So I went directly out there. I spent most of my time pretty much with her body until more people arrived. I knew from the moment that Kerrie Ann's body was discovered, we knew that that was going to be a complex investigation. She'd been missing for some time. We're dealing with that type of a crime scene.

DR: When you were at the scene, and you analyzed these pieces of evidence in situ, were you able to make a determination as to how many people took part in the murder of Kerrie?

JT: No. No, I wasn’t. That's a fair question. No, all I knew quite frankly is that we had a young girl that had been horribly bludgeoned. We had a body. We were going to be doing an active homicide investigation. But with regards to observations at the scene regarding how many people could have involved or whatever, no, there was nothing at the scene that indicated to me whether it was one person or more...at least my involvement with the scene didn't tell me that.

DR: Are you able to tell me anything about the evidence you found at the scene?

JT: Really no. The scene again, the way we process crime scenes is I wasn't involved in the collection of evidence. So I wasn't involved in seizing of exhibits or evidence or anything along that line. Quite frankly, my focus was directed again to make sure that nobody was contaminating the immediate crime scene and that was where her body was.

DR: Okay. That led me to another question. So I've interviewed two people — both who say...they saw police walking all over the scene and trampling evidence and things like that. Has there been any thought in your mind that there was some evidence contamination?

JT: Well, I mean let's face it. In terms of dealing with an investigation, you can always look back and wonder could there have been contamination? But by the same token, I think a person's also got to look at it in terms of we were dealing with a pretty big crime scene. If you looked at where the areas were in terms of tracks, where the air mattress was, branches, that sort of stuff, we're dealing with we're outside of the city limits. We're dealing with an area that's basically wilderness. And one of the things you've got right away is you begin to worry well, what is crime scene, what isn't? So really to have processed any type of crime scene maybe without some degree of contamination, I'm going to suggest probably may have been impossible. But as far as anybody being careless or trampling evidence or whatever, I can't speak to that. And had I seen anybody that was basically contaminating or destroying evidence, I would have said something at the time.

DR: So was it ever confirmed that the mattress and the floor mat and the vehicle trying to get out using them was connected to the murder? Was it ever a question?

JT: We were aware as to what was at the scene, but whether we can conclusively state that those articles — the air mattress and that sort of stuff related to the murder, I can't say with certainty right now. I'm not so sure I could even have stated back then.

DR: Okay. That's fair enough…

DR: I ask Tost to explain to me how the investigation into Kerrie’s murder was divided up with the other RCMP investigator, Dennis Heald.

JT: Dennis was in charge of...the GI section at the time. And I was working along with him. He was responsible for exhibits. He came from a science background, and they thought that would be particularly beneficial. So for the most part, a lot of the time that put me in the spot as lead investigator. And then once he was able to devote more time to it, he and I worked very closely on it. We began to investigate, of course. And then we went where the evidence led us at the time.

DR: Where did the evidence lead you?

JT: Well again, it's well known that it identified a suspect that we wound up charging and taking to court, and who was later discharged after a preliminary hearing.

DR: And why do you think Judge Newcombe threw the case out?

JT: There is a difference between, of course, a discharged hearing and an acquittal. And Pat Sumner was not acquitted. The court never determined that he hasn't committed the offense, in other words, he was not found not guilty. We never got to that phase. They just said that we didn't have enough evidence to proceed to trial at that point. They're saying well, go back to the investigative phase. We need to gather more evidence. And again, that's basically the way it sat ever since.

DR: Was Patrick excluded on basis of DNA?

JT: I don't know. My involvement ended when I left Thompson. And that would have been in 1988. I transferred out of there in July of 1988. So at that point, I think all DNA work was done after I had left.

DR: Can you tell me anything about Sean Simmans as a witness?

JT: Yeah, I can. We spent quite a bit time with Sean Simmans and another young lad...Another young fellow by the name of Larry Leepart. And by the time we were finished, of course, we believed that they were witnesses and credible witnesses.

DR: Is it fair to say that Sean and Larry's testimony is what was the main focus that led you to Patrick Sumner?

JT: You know I think it's fair to say that the information that we got from Sean Simmans and Larry Leepart certainly pointed us in that direction, of course. I mean if you've spoken to Sean Simmans, he was a sharp, young fellow. I was impressed with him at the time. I just was.

DR: Okay. Okay. There was some focus on a green car and a white van, and that comes from Sean and Larry's testimony of seeing these cars coming toward them and turning toward town that night. The focus on the green car turned into kind of a gold-ish colour car...the white van, was it ever really focused on?

JT: There was an interest in the white van. I think there were inquiries originally. I do believe there was a white van located, may have been checked or whatever. Beyond that, I really cannot comment...because I can't specifically recollect. But I know there was information regarding the white van. And also, the vehicle that, of course, we later seized. But I really can't be much more specific in that regard.

DR: So you can't remember any sort of success in locating a white van of that nature then at that time?

JT: I know we did our best to run that lead down. It wasn't like we just said well, we're going to concentrate on one vehicle.

DR: Do you remember how many green cars there were like that in the area at the time?

JT: Well, it wasn't so much that it was a green car because if that was the only description we'd have had, we wouldn't have been able to do anything with it. What I do recall when the vehicle was described is that Pat Sumner's vehicle that time was considered to be, shall we say a rather distinctive vehicle, particularly in that city. I think it was maybe the only vehicle of its type at that point. So we had a rather accurate description of it. So it wasn't just a matter of it was a green car. The colour itself was kind of somewhere between green and brown….It tended to be sort of a more tan. And I can see where it may be could be described as green. It wasn't too far off.

DR: Okay. Okay. I had a couple of people tell me about a phone call that came in after Kerrie disappeared. And on the phone call, which was taped I guess...

DR: Then, I zero in on the mysterious phone call, where the civilian operator heard someone say something about a murder.

DR: So I need to ask you...Do you remember anything about a phone call coming in after Kerrie went missing and with that description?

JT: No, I don't. I recall no such thing. I really don't. Had we heard that, we would've followed up on it.

DR: Okay. So to your recollection at the time, there was no phone call or no follow up on a phone call like that.

JT: No, absolutely. I don't recall ever being advised of it. I can tell you I didn't follow up on it. But I can certainly tell you if we had heard of anything along that line, then we certainly would have. I'm aware of something... years later I heard of something along that line. But no.

DR: And where did you hear about it years later?

JT: Just basically a little bit of social media. I don't want to comment much beyond that, but I was aware that there were comments being made or whatever...

DR: As for Villeneuve's view that they essentially swept the call under the rug, Tost says they did no such thing.

JT: Had we heard that, then obviously we would have vigorously followed up on it at the time.

DR: So we got that information from someone who worked, as an RCMP officer in Thompson whose name was Jean-Marc Villeneuve, who says he knew you. Did you know Jean-Marc?

JT: Yeah, no I'm familiar with him. He was... I didn't know him well. He was...there were lots of people stationed at Thompson at the time. He was a uniform investigator. Beyond that, no, I had very little to do with him, and he didn't play an active role in this investigation, at least at the time that I was involved with it.

DR: Tost denies any knowledge of a call at the time. Could Jean-Marc Villeneuve be somehow...mistaken?

DR: Okay. What would you say the credibility of Jean-Marc is?

JT: I don't want to comment on that, but I would seriously urge you to consider your sources. You do have an investigative background. So I'm going to leave it at that. But I think you just might want to take a look at the individual before you evaluate any information that you're getting...

DR: I set Villeneuve and that mysterious call aside for now, and move on to asking Tost about the hairs found in Sumner’s car.

JT: The Crown witness that testified in the hearing testified that there were a number of hairs that were removed from the vehicle that were consistent with Kerrie Ann Brown, with her hair. That was what his evidence was. A lot of people have spoken since about reliability of hair and fibre evidence back when it depended strictly on microscopic comparison. But I do remember we did present that evidence.

DR: Hair and fibre analysis, just like DNA study, has come a long way in the forensic field since the mid-1980s. And one would think, as Bob Urbanoski suggested, that the improvements in forensic study areas could be applied to any evidence still existing from Kerrie’s case.

DR: Do you recall where they were found in the car?

JT: No, I'm sorry because I wasn't really involved removing them. I just know they were contained in the vehicle.

DR: Okay, somebody had said that there were two black hairs found in the body bag with Kerrie. Is that something that you recall?

JT: I don't know if there were two. I believe it was one. I can't say with certainty it was two. But there was a hair found. It wasn't in the body bag either. It was found on a sheet that we shrouded her body in, prior to removing her from the scene. Now we obtained that sheet from the hospital, and it later was found to contain a hair. Yep.

DR: Okay. So the hospital sheet would have been a clean sheet, do you think?

JT: Oh yeah. It was. I guess I'll take responsibility for that in terms of some training I'd received. It was suggested that the best method of making sure that we preserve trace evidence on a body, a corpse like that, would be to obtain a clean sheet from a hospital, put it down, put the body in a sheet, and put it in a body bag or whatever. And that's what I asked to be done, and that's what we did. Now it turns out, of course, there was a hair. And in hindsight I realized, I regret the decision because we don't know if the hair relates to the crime, whether the hair could be a transferred hair from someone that was perhaps working at the hospital laundry or whatever, but there was a hair.

DR: Okay. Is the supposition then that the black hair was part of the crime scene?

JT: Well, I wouldn't say it's a supposition. But we did have to deal with the fact that there was a hair found in that sheet. And I can't say with certainty to this day does it relate to the crime scene or could it have been in the sheet when it was transported to the crime scene to wrap the body?

DR: Were there other suspects in the case?

JT: I can tell you with a clear conscience that any time we heard anyone could have been involved in any capacity in that murder — witness, suspect or whatever — we followed up on that. I can't tell you right now — or quite frankly maybe won't tell you — number of suspects, other people or whatever. But I can tell you any time we received information that someone else could have been involved in any way in that murder, we followed up on that.

DR: So Sean Simmans and Merilyn, his mother, both claimed to me that Sumner himself and his family members at various times were following them around town very closely in an aggressive manner. Did you ever hear... after this, after Kerrie was murdered. Did you ever hear about any kind of threats from Sumner family to others such as Simmans?

JT: No, I don't. I think given my role and responsibility at the time, I think I would've known that if I was there when it did occur. Not to say it didn't happen, but I don't recall having any personal knowledge or involvement in anything along that line.

DR: But after Sumner was discharged, what did you continue to look into the case, personally or how did that work?

JT: I remained with it for quite some time. That put us into '87. And I didn't leave until 1988. 1988, January of '88 for the last six months, I did go back in charge of uniform watch, which removed me from that investigation. But I can promise you right now — I promise Trevor or anybody else — yeah, we did. If anything came up that was new at all, we followed it up. And you know it's unfortunate because now and again, you know there's only suggestions or whatever, tunnel vision fixating on a suspect. I can promise you right now as you know, I guess the primary investigator, in that case, we would have gone wherever that evidence led us. We never ever would have been satisfied saying well, we have a theory, and we'll disregard all others. We kept all theories on the table, and we constantly went wherever the evidence pointed us.

DR: There's a lot of rumours, lots of fingers pointing, lots of "I know this happened." He must have done it."

JT: And you know that's inherent with a town that size though too because...to say that place went into a state of panic wouldn't really be an understatement at the time. With panic comes emotion and tips and rumours. It was tough to manage in the beginning because you don't want to say you're going to exclude anything or ignore anything. But the sad part of it is you get sidetracked with rumours, innuendo, gossip, that sort of thing and occasionally that may have happened. And you know, I won't get specific who, but there's people that maybe have tried to insert themselves and they're claiming they have knowledge that really maybe they don't have. And if so, I don't know where they... So... if I was standing in front of Trevor and his dad today, tomorrow, whenever, if they wanted to tear a strip off me, criticize me because I know they're critical of the investigation. And I want you to know right now: they have every reason to be. Not because I believe we did anything wrong, not because I believe we mishandled anything. But they didn't get the closure they deserve, and it's only natural they'd want to be angry about that. And I want you to understand, and they're always going to grieve the loss of Kerrie Ann.

JT: I feel terrible for the Brown family. But by the same token, we don't owe anybody apologies for what we did. We did the best we did with what we had at the time, and we operated in good faith. There were a lot of people that believed we were on solid footing to put that into court, and to charge Pat Sumner for the murder of Kerrie Ann Brown. I believe there is someone that knows. At least one person. I really do. I think there is someone that can tell us what did take place that night. And I just hope that one day we're able to gather that sort of information to give the family what they need because it's long overdue.

DR: It’s apparent that Tost still feels they arrested the right man in Patrick Sumner, but just couldn’t gather enough evidence to take him all the way to trial and beyond. But that phone call still plays on my mind. Tost says that if such a call came in, it would have been followed up on. So, did the call happen, or not? To find out, I’ll need to speak to the operator who Villeneuve says took the call. He’s sent her some Facebook messages, but didn’t receive a response. An old phone number that I found for her doesn’t work either.

[Sound: An elevator announces that it has arived on the eighth floor]

DR: But there may be a different way to hear from her…

DR: Okay. Suite 880. APTN. Aboriginal People's Television Network. I'm looking for Kenneth Jackson.

DR: Journalist Kenneth Jackson worked briefly on the Kerrie Brown Case in 2013. And I'm hoping to pick his brain about it a bit. He had only undertaken a couple of formal interviews for it, and he didn't have the resources to continue the story. But, there’s also another reason I suspect why the story never happened, related to one of Ken’s interviews...the one he conducted with the civilian RCMP phone operator.

[Sound: A door opening]

RECEPTIONIST: Hi.

DR: Hi, I'm looking for Kenneth Jackson.

RECEPTIONIST: Yeah, um… And what's your name?

DR: David.

DR: APTN, The Aboriginal People’s Television Network, is a national Canadian broadcaster of news and stories by, for, and about indigenous peoples. The Ottawa Bureau is located in a suite of corridors and big-windowed offices converted into studio spaces, housing about ten employees, close to Parliament Hill.

KEN JACKSON: Hey dude.

DR: Kenneth. How are you?

KJ: Good, how are you?

DR: Nice to see ya.

KJ: You too. Come on in…

DR: Jackson seems too young and ambitious energetic to have a head of gray hair hiding under his baseball cap. He’s one of several award-winning journalists at APTN, and enjoys getting in front of people to draw out information.

[Sound: Doors swinging. DR and KJ walking]

DR: So this is the whole Ottawa Bureau right here?

KJ: this is the whole Ottawa Bureau, yeah...

DR: We settle into an office, and close the door.

DR: So...tell me a little bit about yourself, and how you got into APTN?

KJ: Well, I'd been working at the Ottawa Sun here in Ottawa, the tabloid paper there. I was a crime reporter for three years or so, I covered murders, go to doors, get a photo an hour after a kid died, getting people to talk. Eventually, as you always do…

DR: After a few years reporting crime for the Sun in Ottawa, Ken decided to strike out on his own...and eventually found his way to APTN.

KJ: I've been here for almost 5 years now...

DR: And in 2013, early into his tenure at APTN, Ken came across the Kerrie Ann Brown case.

KJ: Well, I think that what happened is, I saw... this RCMP officer, former RCMP officer chatting on Twitter a lot. He seemed pretty vocal. So I followed him. Figured you know, maybe he knows something, about anything. Didn't know... I just thought he could be a good contact.

DR: The story already sounds familiar, and so is the name of the former RCMP officer: Jean-Marc Villeneuve.

KJ: So I started talking to him, and he started talking about this murder up in Manitoba, and he said it was a white girl. And it's been unsolved for a long time. Right away, I'm like, I work for APTN, so like... obviously it's a murder, and it’s important. But my job is... there has to be some sort of Indigenous angle to it, right? Like, that's in our policy. So I was like, I listened to him. We chatted through email quite a bit. And then he started to say it's my story and this other person. And this other person was a civilian member of the RCMP. And I'm like, okay, well... I'll chat with this person and see what they have to say. And it took a while to get that person on the phone.

DR: After some back and forth, Ken was able to connect with the civilian telecoms operator who received the suspicious call before it was known that Kerrie was even missing.

KJ: She goes, he sounded scared. He didn't want to be recorded, he didn't want to give any information. But he knew about this murder before anyone else. And she didn't have call display, he wouldn't give a number, but surely there was other means of tracking down that phone call and who made it and where it was placed and whatnot. None of that happened. And from what I understand, she used the term tunnel vision. The investigators had tunnel vision, and they had a suspect in mind. I'm used to hearing, and so is anyone else, that they treat Indigenous cases differently, and they've... Oh, they ran away, or, She was in the sex trade. She was just a dirty hooker, and she deserved it. You know, whatever. That's the frame of mind that people have grown up with.

KJ:But this was a little white girl. And they... so I was like, if they're going to do it to a little white girl, who it's a vicious thing that happened to her. Then, you know, I think there's somehow an angle I can use at APTN, even though she's not Indigenous, to show... this is a problem in that area at the time. Either way, when she recounted the call to me, she remembered it like it was yesterday. I think in my emails and my notes I used chilling, to describe how she responded to it. Because in my mind, I was trying to do this for our investigate show, which is like a 23-minute TV show. So I was trying to get her on camera. Because I remember thinking... my thoughts, my feelings of it and thinking: Holy shit. I need to get her on camera. Because you... she's, she's solid. She's like one of those contacts. She's solid.

DR: You know what would be great is if you just played it for me, if you played the beginning and said, this is it. And then it's like...

KJ: Let me go get it.

DR: You sort of intro it, and then I can just get it from...

KJ: Let me go get my laptop. Watch, after all these years, I didn't hit record or something like that.

[Sound: A door closes]

KJ: Or I didn't do it properly. I've never listened to it since.

DR: So when was this originally recorded?

KJ: Ah… well, it says June 12, 2013.

DR: June 12, 2013?

DR: A recording that has sat dormant for five years.

[Sound: A recording begins to play, beginning with the sound of KJ clearing his voice]

KJ: So far so good.

DR: We’d found the recording, Ken’s interview with the telecoms operator.

KH: Hi, it’s Ken Jackson. How are you?

DR: After some pleasantries and conversation, they begin to discuss the Brown case. And it quickly becomes apparent that she needs some convincing to speak to the media…

KJ: I just need to know what it is so I can put it together, and then see if there’s any way where I can protect your identity and your livelihood and your future...

DR: Villeneuve shared with me his Facebook chats with the telecoms operator over this time period in 2013. They seem to show someone who is ready and willing to help, but justifiably concerned over the repercussions that speaking out might have for her family. Shortly after these conversations began, the operator’s husband was transferred to another province. And she was hoping to find a job there, possibly working once again for the RCMP.

KJ: I give you my word that nothing is gonna be printed or broadcast without you knowing, or without your permission basically.

DR: In 2013, she decided not to go on the record with her story with APTN.

KJ: Alright. I’ll be in touch.

KJ: I gave someone my word. I didn't realize that I had to work so hard to get her to open up, I had forgotten about that.

DR: We both have extremely mixed emotions about the phone call we’ve just heard.

On the one hand, it’s clear that she is a credible witness, one whose information could positively change the trajectory of this investigation. On the other hand, it’s clear that her interview with Ken can’t be published. And that’s why I can’t play it for you here.

DR: A re-approach to her is important. But it's so important that you did that initial work back in 2014. Even though it didn't go to air... the stuff you gathered was important. And that's why I'm here. Basically, you know?

KJ: Yeah...

DR: Because he had made the original connection, Ken has tried to reach out to the operator over Facebook on my behalf, but no reply yet.

KJ: Maybe she is willing to...I know it weighs on her.

DR: I need to get in touch with this operator. I’m hoping that we’ll hear from her.

But in the meantime, I need to look into Villeneuve’s tip about the man known as Eagle, and the two brothers.

DR: Ok. So let's look at these Facebook posts.

[Sound: A door slams]

TB: Hey dad.

JB: What?

TB: I gotta get on that TV for a few minutes

if that's alright.

DR: I’m at Trevor’s place, and he’s about to call up some Facebook messages on his television screen. He contacted one of the two brothers with the van, the ones that Villeneuve mentioned.

[Sound: TB typing]

TB: I’ve got to get into my Facebook here. So bear with me.

DR: Back in 2014, after Trevor first heard about Villeneuve’s information, he

had reached out to one of the brothers himself.

TB: Let's go find our messages here.

You want to keep an eye on the list there,

Dave... as I scroll down here.

DR: Yup.

TB: Let me know when you spot his name if I...in case I miss it. There he is.

DR: April 19th 2014 at 1:31, you wrote this message. ‘Long time without speaking. I just wanted to ask you if you or anyone in your family were ever interviewed by the RCMP regarding Kerrie's homicide...Please forgive me for my abruptness, but I'm just trying to make sense of what I'm just hearing right now. Please drop me a line when you can. Much appreciated. Trevor.

DR: He responds a short time later.

DR: 15 years ago, yes, they took all her blood. They took mine. But that was 15 years ago. I ... what's the problem now. I meant to say they took my blood but why we going to answer

back. What's going on.’

DR: It looks as though Trevor didn’t realize that the fellow he was writing to was replying to him.

TB: This is when I didn't know he had messaged me back I was telling you.

DR: ‘Hello. Why would you ask me something I have no clue about. Have you not gone

to answer me. Then don't bother me cause I have no clue what the hell you are

trying to say. Why would you send me story, then not answering my texts.’

DR: The brother wrote a number of messages, becoming increasingly upset with Trevor’s silence after broaching such a sensitive topic.

DR: ‘Maybe you get the story straight before you think now what you're talking about. And when I lived in The Pas, the RCMP came and took my blood 15 years ago. You better watch what you're trying to say. Make sure you have the right story before I try. And that's not right you asking me

something I have no clue. You tell me to drop a line and then don't answer.’

DR: Trevor didn’t attempt to pick up the conversation again until over two years later, in May 2016.

[/sc]

LL: You've been listening to the CBC podcast, Someone Knows Something. This latest season has host David Ridgen looking at the 1986 murder of teenager Kerrie Brown. We will continue with Season 5 tomorrow with Episode 7, Luella. I'm Laura Lynch. Thanks for listening to this summer edition of The Current.

The Current Transcript for August 5, 2019

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

Victims of El Paso attack could sue 8chan forum linked to alleged gunman, extremism expert says

Someone Knows Something: Season 5, Episode 6

Aug. 5, 2019 episode transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode