When it comes to music, who decides what's good?

25:00Jann Wenner's controversy, and who counts as a musical genius

In a recent interview with The New York Times, Rolling Stone magazine co-founder Jann Wenner suggested rock legends like Bob Dylan, Mick Jagger and Bono are still the defining figures of recent music history. Noticeably, Wenner failed to give equal credit to any of their female contemporaries or fellow musicians of colour.

Culture writers Kelefa Sanneh and Niko Stratis join host Elamin Abdelmahmoud to discuss Wenner's decision to focus on seven white male rock musicians in his new book, The Masters, at the exclusion of everyone else.

We've included some highlights below, edited for length and clarity. For the full discussion, including the panel's thoughts on the new TikTok Billboard Top 50 Chart, listen and follow the Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud podcast, on your favourite podcast player.

Elamin: Before we get too deep into everything that he said, Kelefa, would you mind setting up who Jann Wenner is to us, that we should take his word at any level?

Kelefa: Well, this is kind of what's funny about this. So Jann Wenner, for decades, was kind of a gatekeeper, right? He founded Rolling Stone magazine. He helped found The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. There was this idea that Jann Wenner decides who's in and who's out. He's famous for being close with rock 'n' roll royalty. He loved Mick Jagger. He maybe said some nasty things about Paul McCartney, but only because he was close with John Lennon. There was this idea that if you want to be on the rock 'n' roll A-list, being his friend is what really matters.

I would say that's no longer true. His sensibility is no longer the dominant sensibility in the culture, in music, or even in rock 'n' roll — and you can see that by the reaction to this thing, right? He said something ridiculous about Joni Mitchell in an interview, and it's literally international news. That's how strong the consensus that he violated is. That's how much the idea of what matters and how we talk about music has changed from what he's expressing.

Elamin: Niko, to me the most shocking part of this is that it would have been relatively easy for him to say, "I grew up in a moment where the people that I've chosen to feature in this book — Mick Jagger, Bono, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan — those are the people that defined my taste." But instead, he sort of zoomed out much, much farther than that and he said, "I'm not really sure that these other artists — the women that I could have featured in this thing, the Black artists I could have featured in this thing — I'm not really sure that they measure up intellectually to these artists that I'm choosing to feature in this book." What was your reaction when you read this interview?

Niko: Framing it as "the masters," he's sort of portraying it as, "These are the most important people of this generation." Liking all the people on that list, I don't even think that's necessarily true.… You could say, "Well, this is indicative of his time. This is where he was. This is what he was doing." But he uses the word "articulate," which I think is a really interesting choice of word. It's not saying "smart." It's not saying "talented." Articulation is such an interesting hill to choose because who defines what "articulate" means, right? Does [it] mean they speak a certain way? I look at all the people on that list and I wouldn't define them [as articulate].… It's been an interesting conversation to watch unfold after the fact.

Kelefa: The dirty secret is, this is something people like Niko and myself think about a lot. If you're going to write about music, if you're going to interview people, one question you might ask is, who's making great music? And another question you might ask is, who's a great talker? Now there's a lot of different ways to be a great talker, and a lot of different ways to talk about music. But one of the minor prejudices that plays a big role in music coverage, I think, is that certain artists are good at talking. I know certainly my list would not be Jann Wenner's list, but I know that has shaped what I write about — and I think that does shape what gets written about.

I actually don't care that much about the Jann Wenner interview, but I think it's a useful example for everyone to examine their own prejudices, because we're all making choices. Our musical views and our musical coverage are always going to be exclusive in the sense that we're always going to be leaving some people out, and that question of who do we leave out and why is the really interesting question. That's a question that people are always going to disagree about. The hope is that people have good, or interesting, or resonant reasons to make those decisions.

Elamin: Jann had an opportunity to choose a woman for this book, to choose a Black person for this book, but he chose not to. He sort of expressly said, "I guess that would have been better for PR, but I didn't want to do it." He explicitly went with his friends. Niko, what was your reaction when you heard that part?

Niko: I mean, it is him being — if nothing else — brutally honest, and there is something to be said for that, right? He is sort of speaking to where he's coming from. It's interesting that he sort of undercuts his own thesis; at one point he references that maybe he shouldn't have gone with The Masters. My guy, that's the title of your book. If you think you shouldn't have gone with that, you might need to—

Elamin: This was the whole frame of the thing.

Niko: You start with that and then you build out from there…. He's talking about the spirit and soul of rock 'n' roll. I don't necessarily disagree with him when he says that Joni Mitchell is not a rock 'n' roll philosopher; I don't think of Joni Mitchell as being a rock 'n' roll artist. This goes back to this idea of genre. Is Joni Mitchell a poet, or is she speaking to the soul of a certain genre of music? And if she is, I don't know if I would say it's rock 'n' roll — but what is rock 'n' roll?

He also says something really interesting a couple of times, where he says, "I could have chosen one Black artist and one woman artist." You also could have chosen a Black woman. But he separates these things in a very interesting way…. He sort of defines those things as different subcategories of artistry. It's him really telling where he's coming from. And if he was self-aware enough to know that's what he was doing, he could have been more prepared for this interview. He seemed unprepared for this to be an eventuality where he put all these men on a cover and didn't think that anybody was going to sit there, hold his feet to the fire on it…. He might have been able to better prepare for explaining why he did what he did, and make it a personal decision as opposed to him trying to define the voice of a generation.

You can listen to the full discussion from today's show, including the panel's thoughts on the new TikTok Billboard Top 50 Chart, on CBC Listen or on our podcast, Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud, available wherever you get your podcasts.

Panel produced by Jess Low.