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The Current Transcript for October 28, 2019

Host: David Common

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: If you know what you're doing and you get out there quickly enough with people can know how to process an animal, that is a lot of meat that is not being purchased at a factory farm.

DAVID COMMON: Not purchased at a factory farm because it's being scraped off a street. This may not be a cooking show, but we are talking roadkill cuisine. Not only is it ethical, according to the increasing number harvesting from the highway, but it's better than shopping at the supermarket. More on that in half an hour. We're also getting a look inside the Syrian conflict with a new film that happens underground, tracking a doctor, saving lives against the odds. But we're starting with why so many people are taking to the streets around the world.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds from protests in Hong Kong]

DC: Be it in Lebanon, Chile or here in Hong Kong, where these protesters are actually chanting about Catalonia. I'm David Common and you're listening to The Current.

International leaders need to take note of global protests

Guests: Gino Raidy, Francisca Echeverria, Julie Norman

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It was a tax on the social media platform, WhatsApp that brought protesters to the streets in Lebanon. But that's not what kept them there. The tax was scrapped, but frustration over government corruption has pushed protests into a second week. And they just keep growing.

DC: Tens of thousands of people in Lebanon formed a human chain along highways across the country on Sunday. That was the eleventh day of nationwide anti-government protests. Gino Raidy is a Lebanese blogger and activist, and we've reached him today in Beirut. Hi, Gino.

GINO RAIDY: Hi. Thank you for having me.

DC: Well, thank you for talking to us. It has been a busy weekend. I wonder if you could give us a sense, because you're well into the day, today already. What's happening in Beirut today?

GINO RAIDY: So today, the major the major effort the government forces are trying to do is open up the roads that have been blocked for the past eleven. And today we're in the 12th day. So today the major point that everyone has been doing is trying to keep the roads closed. And this is the back and forth that's been happening in Beirut and around the country today.

DC: Creates a lot of friction certainly on the streets. I wonder if you can just explain to us what kicked all of this off, because, of course, protests are not new in Lebanon.

GINO RAIDY: Like most of the countries, like most of the region's countries, the economic situation has been pretty tough in Lebanon for the past five years, let's say, since the garbage crisis first started in 2015. And like you said in your report that whatsup that was the straw that broke the camel's back, but it was there were many other things that that led up to this. So we had fuel shortages, wheat shortages, 10 percent of businesses in Lebanon had already closed and during this fiscal year. So, yeah, everything came together. And right before the protests, wildfires across the country broke out and response by the government was minimal, if not nonexistent. And that only added fuel to the proverbial fire where people realized how corrupt and how inept this government is and always will be. What's new this time is you're seeing cities and towns that have never protested in their history before, being part of this, despite the risks of political parties that control each of these areas in the country.

DC: So much more widespread than you've typically seen. You talk about that WhatsApp tax, this online messaging platform, the government of Prime Minister Hariri wanted to begin taxing that. That that initiated a lot of these. But it now seems in some ways, though, that tax idea has been withdrawn, that there's a stalemate with the government. What do you think it will take to break that stalemate?

GINO RAIDY: I think that that the situation has has been tough enough and that a weakening between different sects of Lebanese and unity they've shown. So we are at a stalemate now. But I think nothing other than the government resigning and that transitional periods where a new electoral law is happening and people can choose new representatives for them, because that also shows a huge flaw in the electoral system in Lebanon.

DC: What are the chances of the government resigning?

GINO RAIDY: Yeah, I don't see any way out of this. People would not accept any of the usual bandaids on this on this issue. A lot of the people protesting are either unemployed or maybe if they're lucky, they're freelancers. So people unfortunately have almost nothing left to lose. So there is no other other way out of this and quelling the anger of people unless this government resigns and people who are, you know, specialists in each of their cabinets are assigned to be able to try and fix what's what's left of this country's economy.

DC: Gino, we've only got seconds here, but there are there are protests, of course, happening around the world, not just in Lebanon. Nearby in Baghdad, but we're seeing them in Hong Kong, Chile, Barcelona, Ecuador. What do you make of all of this? Where is it leading?

GINO RAIDY: Honestly, I think that like Iraq has a great parallel to what's happening in Lebanon. We get a lot of hope from what's happening in Hong Kong and what we see in Chile. But I think obviously a lot of people working and working class people, millennials, especially for Lebanon, for example, the post-war generation is realizing that the current system is not working for them. And something needs to change and it's not just you know cabinet faces. The system needs to change. It can't be linked anymore to people's sectarian belonging. People want to go beyond that. They want secular space here. And I think, definitely maybe it's hard to compared to Chile or what's happening in Barcelona and Catalonia, but it's obvious that the younger generation is fed up of where they are. And people are tired, enough is enough for a lot of us around the world now.

DC: Alright, Gino, thank you very much.

GINO RAIDY: Thank you. Thank you for having us.

DC: Gino Raidy is a Lebanese blogger and activist. We reached him in Beirut.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: In Chile it wasn't a tax, but a transit fare hike that ignited protests. At least 18 people have been killed in the unrest, and though the fare hike has been rolled back, two weeks later trucks are still blocking highways and people are on the streets singing and marching, demanding an end to inequality.

DC: Let's go now to Francisca Echeverria, who is an anthropologist and has been at the protests in Chile. We have reached her in her home in Santiago. Hi, Francisca.

FRANCISCA ECHEVERRIA: Hi David, how are you?

DC: I'm very well. Now, I know it's still early in Santiago, but can you give us a sense after the whole weekend with the protests, huge, huge protests. What is likely to happen today?

FRANCISCA ECHEVERRIA: Well, it's difficult to say. There were a lot of things in the weekend because the precedent after the dispute protests on Friday, he decided to end with the police threatening us and there's a lot of human rights violations. And today it's an important day because United Nations are coming here to see what's happening, but now we are not in a state of emergency. There's no curfew. So I don't know it's like the president decide to be normal, but that's not true. There are people killed, sexual abuse from the police and the military. So it's something overwhelming.

DC: I imagine so. We have seen videos of Chilean soldiers and police mistreating at best in some cases, protesters out on the streets. We've also seen tens and tens of thousands of protesters spilling out over the city centre. I know you're right in the centre of all of it, but you were of course, you were there when it all began too. What do you think was the thing that started all of this?

FRANCISCA ECHEVERRIA: There was riot in the subway so that high school students started without paying the passage.

DC: They would jump the turnstiles. Yeah.

FRANCISCA ECHEVERRIA: Yeah. That start everything really spontaneous thing. The 18th of October, there was some specific stations with fire because that protest is increased a lot. So Metro, the subway, decide to close.

DC: Francisca, I understand the metro protests, while they were in many ways what we would say, the straw that broke the camel's back, the bigger issue was inequality in society. When even when you look at the protests, the difference between the health care systems, if someone is shot on the street, they can wait forever for medicine going to the public clinic, whereas the small, rich elite minority can go to the private clinic. And there are ongoing issues of inequality, which, of course, you must see in your everyday life.

FRANCISCA ECHEVERRIA: Yeah. The inequalities, it's the thing. We are tired, we are angry. This thing with subway, it started because one minister says that if you want to pay less, you have to wake up early because there are peak hours. When you in the rush hour, you have to pay more. That was like what's going on, how do you say that? And people get really angry. So you have inequality in education, in health, in pensions a lot. In your salary, you can't live like this anymore. There's 30 years since the dictatorship ended, the system is corrupt. It's bad and we have a president who declare us the war.

DC: Yeah, he said that the protesters are the enemy and that the military is declaring war on them.

FRANCISCA ECHEVERRIA: Yeah. He's crazy.

DC: How do you, when the president, when the leader of the country is declaring war on people like you who have been out protesting, how can you be hopeful, optimistic that there will be change? The kind of change you're asking for?

FRANCISCA ECHEVERRIA: Well, today, I'm not optimistic because the government is trying to get us like everything is normal. Like, OK, you end this thing, so now you have to get back to your normal life. But it's impossible because of the human rights violated. I don't know. I live in the middle of the protest. So you get out of my house and you see a lot of the walls has a lot of messages, protest messages. And it's like, what are you thinking? In a point of view, political point of view, he's giving these a lot of things. He only sent us military, police, repress us, violate us. abuse us.

DC: Yes.

FRANCISCA ECHEVERRIA: So he's not seeing what's going on.

DC: Francisca we're going to have to leave it there. I hope you stay safe because, of course, the protests are expected to be back out on the streets today. Thank you very much for talking to us.

FRANCISCA ECHEVERRIA: Thank you for your time, David.

DC: Francisca Echeverria is an anthropologist who's been taking part in the protests. We reached her at home in Santiago, Chile.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: But of course, it's not just Lebanon and Chile. In Catalonia, demonstrators are rallying for independence. Protesters in Ecuador are marching against austerity. Haitians are now six weeks into anti-corruption protests that have virtually shut down the capital. Baghdad has been rocked by days of antigovernment protests that have at times turned deadly. In Hong Kong it was an extradition bill that sparked protests back in March and that continue to this day. And 2019 has also seen major demonstrations in Russia, Ukraine, the U.K., France, Brazil, Venezuela, India, Peru, Serbia. Albania.

DC: So are there links to all of this? Well, Julie Norman is a teaching fellow specializing in international politics at University College London, and we've reached her in London, England. Hello, Julie.

JULIE NORMAN: Hi, David. Thanks for having me.

DC: Not at all. What are we supposed to make of this? Are there links between all of these protest movements in the sense of the motivation?

JULIE NORMAN: Sure. Well, I think as you heard from the activists in Lebanon and Chile, there are certainly some similarities and some of the other cases that were mentioned as well, and that we are living at a economic and political moments at which people in many contexts are facing inequalities in their countries and in their communities. And they're seeing this playing out in their day to day life and seeing that everyday people are really suffering from this as the elites, as the 1 percent really benefit. So we do see some pushback and that is a similarity in many of the cases.

DC: We keep hearing lines like government corruption or inequality or elites, those kinds of things.

JULIE NORMAN: For sure. And I do think that's a common part of it. Again, the sense that there's a feeling and a very sharp perception that certain class and certain individuals within the government or within the economic elites are taking full advantage at the expense of the people. But again, is as we also heard in the commentary from the activists, the political situation is very different in Lebanon and Chile and then in many of the other cases that you listed as well. And so I think that's very important to note that while there is a thread of similarity and we do see the mobilization happening in some similar ways, there are specific contexts that we're working in in each of these countries and each of these sites to that has to be taken into account.

DC: And because of those differences, does that mean that there isn't really any coordination even between some of these groups that are protesting? I mean, we I guess we do see the example of Catalonia in Hong Kong, which is an interesting dynamic.

JULIE NORMAN: Yeah. I think even when the grievance and the motivating issue differs on activists, do you still look to each other? We do see social movements often looking to each other and learning the lessons, often simultaneously. And as you noted, Hong Kong and Catalonia, we've seen a direct back and forth between activists and both of those contexts. But even outside of that, you add at a time that we are we can see protests playing out in real time. There is inspiration that those from seeing other countries, other people in other places who are taking to the streets, who are getting with their voices heard and that can be a source of inspiration for people in other contexts to do the same.

DC: If I go backwards in history, I start thinking and recent history, about movements like Occupy or movements like the Arab Spring. Both of those seemingly fizzled out. What's likely to happen when you look at recent history with this current push of protest?

JULIE NORMAN: That's right. And for sure, we do see that protests and social movements do go in cycles and work. Some people expected that the protests that we're looking at now in Hong Kong, which has been going on for months now, and then even in Cuba and Lebanon, which are going on for over a week now, all of those protests, people often said at the start, this is only going to last one day. This is only going to last one week. So most of the countries that we're talking about today have already gone beyond the normal fizzle out point that we see. Obviously, movements like this are difficult to sustain over an extended period of time. But we are seeing, again, a much more massive mobilization from most of these contexts than we've seen in the past. And these are also contexts that we haven't seen people come together often in the same way that they're mobilizing now. Lebanon is a key example of this, where it's not just one sect. It's not just students. It's not just one part of the population. You have, you know, people from every walk of life taking part in this and that matters a lot for keeping a protest moving forward.

DC: The young climate activist Greta Thunberg was in Canada last week, drawing crowds at some of the events she was holding, had been in the U.S. before that and has been a motivating factor, particularly with young people on climate for demonstrations. Do you think that the climate emergency, whether it's Greta Thunberg or someone else is in some ways, invigorating the protest movement?

JULIE NORMAN: I think it is for sure. This is an issue that so many people in so many countries and both the global north and the global south are rallying around and seeing as a sense of urgency. It's one where, again, most citizens feel that their state as a government or again, corporations and the private sector are not taking this issue seriously. And there is a sense that the people have have a role to take back that voice and take back a space to mobilize around that. So we see that same sense of the feeling of being left left out of that conversation and one that that people will assert their voice to be heard with and that.

DC: You know, if you're an international leader right now, we heard from the two previous guests essentially calling for the leaders of their countries to resign. We've heard the same sort of calls in Hong Kong. What would be the message to if not the leaders who are there now, the leaders to come in countries where protests are underway?

JULIE NORMAN: Yes. Well, I think it's a very clear message that, again, the economic inequality that has been rife in so many parts of the world in recent years and has just been growing is something that people will not stand for anymore and that people will speak out. Likewise, people who are living in places where there isn't political inclusion will push for a space. And what we see is that people will speak out and we'll take back that public space and we'll take back a public voice. If they're living in a context where theirs are being denied to them.

DC: Do you see parallels and we're talking to you today in the U.K. with things like Brexit, do you see parallels with the things that we see in American politics?

JULIE NORMAN: We certainly do. And again, the sense of many people feeling that that there are people within this society, often and often in the upper echelons who are benefiting from the current system. And many people, whether it's in the U.S. or in Brixton, in Britain or in truly Lebanon, other places, that they are taking the brunt of this. And people don't want to take that anymore. And so we see the mobilization in the streets last last week in London with pushing for another vote. We've seen different manifestations in the U.S., too, with people saying, you know, we we want better than this. We want dignity. We want to be included and we're not content anymore to let our political leaders speak for us in ways that really are not representative of our voices.

DC: Julie, thank you very much.

JULIE NORMAN: Thank you, David.

DC: That is Julie Norman, a teaching fellow specializing in international politics at University College London. And we reached her in London, England. Well the CBC News is coming up next. In about 45 minutes, we're going to be going underground, deep inside a bunker that's serving as a hospital where Syrian doctors and one doctor in particular are trying to save lives. We will hear about her, her plight, her struggle in the face of conflict. We're also gonna be talking about something quite different, roadkill cuisine. It's a thing. People are scraping animals off the road and the laws are allowing it and they're making all sorts of things, dishes, food for guests. Would you want to be one of those guests? Well stick around. That's coming up in our next part here on The Current. I'm David Common and you are listening to The Current.

[Music]

Why hunt when you can eat roadkill? Salvaged meat better than veganism for animal welfare, say advocates

Guests: Joanna Young, Donald Bruckner

DC: Hello, I'm David Common and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Abu Bakar al-Baghdadi is dead.

DC: U.S. special forces raided the ISIS compound of the world's most wanted terrorist. Baghdadi's death though, is not the end of ISIS. So what does it mean? We'll be looking at that story in half an hour. First though, something quite different. When is a squirrel ever smelled so sweet?

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: There are millions of squirrels, rabbits, pigeons, deer killed every year. And a lot of them are landfills. And it doesn't have to be the case. It's not very nice, but meat production isn't, but at least there's no further ethical problem here. This is a rather fat old squirrel. A lot of meat in it, but the older they are, the tougher they get. So they do have to be marinated. Yep. You know meat comes from animals, which have heads, they have tails.

VOICE 2: And that is indeed why we are showing this because meat does come from animals and yet many of us do seem to forget that. Is there anything you wouldn't eat?

VOICE 1: Well, for roadkill, I'll take just about anything except cats and dogs.

VOICE 2: I better try this.

VOICE 1: What do you reckon?

VOICE 2: I had a gag prepared. I was going to say it tastes like chicken because everything does, but it doesn't. It's perfectly edible.

DC: Perfectly edible. Well, that might be debatable for some. Just a warning here. We are talking about eating roadkill, if you happen to find you know that unpalatable. You're listening to a British environmentalist, George Monbiot, who certainly does not have a problem with it. Neither do legislators in California. They recently passed a law allowing drivers to collect roadkill, but only in certain areas and a limited number of species. It's also legal in some Canadian provinces and now more than 20 U.S. states, including Alaska. That's something Joanna Young discovered when she moved to Fairbanks from suburban Toronto almost 10 years ago. Now, when Joanna arrived, she was a vegan. Not so much anymore. Hello. Joanna Young.

JOANNA YOUNG: Hi. Thanks for having me.

DC: Not at all. So you went from being a vegan to not just eating meat, but eating roadkill.

JOANNA YOUNG: I sure did. It was a slow process though. I wouldn't say it happened all at once. I was speaking for about a year after I made it to Alaska and slowly started realizing that there were a lot of people eating moose and salmon at a lot of the different potlucks and barbecues I was going to. And so slowly I started to dabble myself and went out fishing for the first time and got my own salmon and a couple of years after that, I also started to eat roadkill moose.

DC: OK, so I feel like there's a dot, dot, dot there. There's a few things we've left on the side because there will be some people who will be listening and saying gross. How do you counter that?

JOANNA YOUNG: I completely understand that mentality. I think that mentality is probably how I would have felt about a decade ago as well. There is definitely a stigma surrounding the idea of salvaging meat from the side of a road. But I think things in Alaska are a little bit different. We have a long standing program up there where you can get on a list with the Alaska State Troopers. And when a moose is hit by a car, which is always super unfortunate, but which, of course, happens every single day up there, you can be on that list and the state troopers will give you a call when it's your turn. And if you're available, you can go ahead and go down and salvage whatever meat can be salvaged from the animal.

DC: You must to have to do it pretty quickly.

JOANNA YOUNG: You do. And it certainly depends on the season. And in winter, you have a little bit more time because the temperatures are cooler, but you really have to be on it. You have to be ready to go out. We got a call at 11:30 at night once and had to mobilize and we were out at the side of the road by maybe about 1:00 in the morning because the meat can start to spoil if it takes you too long to get there.

DC: Okay. So walk me through that. Let's think about the first time you were called out. It was a moose. What do you do?

JOANNA YOUNG: Well, it's a good question. It was my first time doing any kind of butchering of an animal or processing of an animal. You know, at all. I've never done any farming before like that.

DC: And you're also trying not to get hit by other cars at the same time.

JOANNA YOUNG: That's true. I mean, it was a highway and it was the middle of the night. So not too much traffic, but we did pull the pull the carcase to a safe spot. And I was with three friends and my partner and one of us had done it before. He knew exactly what he was doing. And so he really was able to show us the ropes and tell us how to do it. And between the four of us in an hour, we had the whole animal quartered and loaded up in our car ready to drive home.

DC: And was this an adult moose?

JOANNA YOUNG: It was about a year old. So it was on the smaller side.

DC: Still a lot of meat.

JOANNA YOUNG: A lot of meat. One of the legs was pretty badly damaged, which you might expect from a big accident like that. So we weren't able to use that part of the animal, but out of the rest of it, we got about 140 pounds of meat to divide between four people.

DC: That is a lot.

JOANNA YOUNG: That's on the small side.

DC: Yeah and popping that into the freezer. So being in Alaska, is this a thing that only a small number of people know about and do, or is it fairly accepted? If I went and suggested that I eat roadkill, would people bat an eye?

JOANNA YOUNG: I don't think anyone would bat an eye if they'd been there for any period of time. I think newcomers definitely take a little bit of time to get used to the idea that makes sense to me because again, there's a stigma and there's a vision of. Yeah. Picking up the, you know, a squirrel that's at the side of the road and sweltering heat. And that's just not what this looks like at all. What this looks like is a very large animal that's unfortunately lost its life and that has hundreds, potentially hundreds of pounds of good meat, organic free range meat. And that's in perfectly good shape. And if you know what you're doing and you get out there quickly enough with people who know how to process an animal that is a lot of meat that is not being purchased at a factory farm.

DC: And then there's arguments. And walk me through that argument, because not only is it not food that's going to waste, but it is where the food is coming from.

JOANNA YOUNG: Exactly. A lot of people in Alaska go out hunting routinely. And I'm not as much a part of that community, although I have lots of friends who are. And I kind of think of this as one way that we can even eliminate one active hunt instead of having to go out and hunt an animal that's out in the wild. we can pick one up from the side of the road that's for the most part in pretty good shape.

DC: If your freezers are already full, why do you need to fill it some more?

JOANNA YOUNG: Well, that's a good question. Yeah and right now, I am not on the list to go and salvage a roadkill because our freezer is perfectly full. So we have all we need.

DC: Do you ever worry about foodborne illness? I mean, you talk about factory farmed food or food that's coming out of the industrialized meat system. The one thing is that that is at least it's supposed to be subject to food inspectors and stringent health guidelines. But you wouldn't have that with something that's been hit by a car and salvaged off the side of the road.

JOANNA YOUNG: I don't worry about it as much. And in a way, I think I would be a little bit more worried about eating chicken that I know comes from a factory farm, because we've all heard of lots of recalls and issues of salmonella and things like that. But when it comes to getting loose from the roadkill salvage program, there are a couple of things to watch out for in the meat. There is some small growths in the meat that are pretty easy to identify that you can see with your own eyes. You can tell when meat is damaged, if it has too much blood in it, or if maybe it has some fur or some hair on it from the moose, that stuff that you don't want to keep. And so we're really diligent when we get home about how we process it and only keep the parts that look the very best.

DC: I want to play a clip for you. Baylen Linnekin is a lawyer and also the author of Biting the Hand that Feed Us: How Fewer, Smarter Laws Would Make Our Food System More Sustainable.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It's legal at this point and about a little more, I guess now than half of the U.S. states, which means that obviously people aren't bragging about their illicit practices. So in half the states of this country, you know, it's sort of on the down low. It's an uncommon practice let's say. Most people don't do it, but even the people who are doing it they're making a small dent in the you kno, the carcases that you see on the roadside. But they're making a big impact because that makes it less likely that other predators will come onto the highway and be hurt or killed themselves. They're promoting a more sustainable way of living, and it's also free food. I think that the overarching and overriding lesson here is that more choice is better and the more choices people are allowed to have, the more sort of interesting niche food markets and food choices will pop up and road kill is just one of those.

DC: Joanna Young, does that resonate with you?

JOANNA YOUNG: It does. I agree with a lot of what he's just said. I think one of the one of the things I think about is people pay thousands of dollars to come up and do a guided hand in Alaska's wilds to get themselves a moose and perhaps to bring the meat back home with them. And for me, this is a program that I get to participate in for free. And I'm a student. It saves me a lot of money. And again, it's really high quality, wild game meat that has been organic and free range and that has had a really wonderful life up until the very last moments.

DC: What's your favourite thing to make with moose?

JOANNA YOUNG: Oh, I'm a big fan of doing a moose chilli in the slow cooker.

DC: Yeah, I've had that before, particularly in western Canada.

JOANNA YOUNG: Yeah, exactly.

DC: Well, Joanna Young, thank you very much for of all things, talking to us about eating roadkill.

JOANNA YOUNG: You bet. It's definitely not what I thought I would be on the radio for.

DC: No doubt. Talk to you later.

JOANNA YOUNG: Thanks very much. Bye bye.

DC: Join a young is a geoscientist in Fairbanks, Alaska. OK. What about the ethics of all of this? Donald Bruckner is an associate professor of philosophy at Penn State University. We've reached him in New Kensington, Pennsylvania. Hello. How are you?

DONALD BRUCKNER: I'm very well. Thank you for your interest.

DC: And how were you after listening to Joanna talk about moose meat recipes and all sorts of goodness about eating roadkill.

DONALD BRUCKNER: I think that she hit lots and lots of nails on the head.

DC: Okay, give me some of them. What are the because you're looking particularly at the ethical complexities around this.

DONALD BRUCKNER: Yes, that's correct. So my interest in roadkill comes from sort of two places. One is I'm like Joanna, I collect and consume roadkill here in western Pennsylvania. We have a lot of road kill deer. But philosophically, I'm interested in a very common argument that's given in favour of the obligatoryness of vegetarianism. And that argument has to do with the unnecessary harm associated with diet that includes factory farmed animals. It's very harmful to the factory farm animals. It's very harmful to the environment due to the farming practices. And so the usual arguments says it's wrong to participate or support a practice that causes unnecessary harm. So the conclusion that the vegan draws from that is that we're obligated to have a vegan diet. However, there is some harm associated with the vegan diet. There are still environmental harms associated with vegetable farming. There's still harms to animals who are caught in harvesting machinery or ploughs. So a vegan diet does not completely harm free. A diet that includes roadkill as instead of some vegan staples would have a lower harm footprint. So by the vegans own logic, it would be morally better to have a diet, including some roadkill.

DC: More ethical to eat roadkill compared to a plant-based diet.

DONALD BRUCKNER: On the vegans own standards, on that argument, yes.

DC: Well, now that's curious. I think a lot of our reaction to this idea of people who may be listening right now, some people may be saying this is totally logical. The meat otherwise would've gone to waste. Why not? And I think other people will have a more basic reaction of just ugh.

DONALD BRUCKNER: Yes.

DC: How do you think disgust plays into how we see this?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Well, again, I'm not committed to the obligatoryness of a diet, including road kill, but I think the vegan is. But I think that this line of argument has a response. And the response is that sometimes we're morally obligated to do things that are gross. If you were hurt and you were haemorrhaging badly, it might be gross for a bystander to have to help stop your bleeding. But there might be a moral obligation to do that. It's morally obligatory for parents to change baby's diapers. That's pretty gross. But sometimes we've got to get over the gross and get on with our moral obligations.

DC: There was a discussion that cropped up a couple of years ago in Newfoundland and Labrador about whether that province should re-open a program that allowed charities to salvage roadkill and use it to feed the needy. We checked in with our provincial government and it said emphatically that that had been considered but is not going to happen. That there is not going to be a program to salvage roadkill and use it to feed the needy. What do you think of the ethics of a decision like that?

DONALD BRUCKNER: I think that that's a shame because as Joanne articulated, this is meat that would otherwise be left to waste. And one rejoinder that I get from vegans to whom I present this argument is that, well, maybe this harm based argument is not the best argument, but there's an argument based on respect. We shouldn't eat factory farmed animals because doing that is disrespectful and so we should be vegans instead. My rejoinder to that rejoinder is that it seems to me quite disrespectful to let a perfectly good, nutritious animal whose life has just ended go to waste on the side of the road or in Pennsylvania. What happens is they're collected and put in landfills. That seems to be disrespectful. What would you think of a dog owner whose dog was hit in the middle of the road and who just let the dogs sit there and and rot in the road? That would be disrespectful. And I think it's disrespectful to a wild animal to let it go to waste like that. Yes.

DC: Let me just step away from the ethical and the broader discussion here, and because you have said that you salvage and serve roadkill. Is it mostly deer?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Yes. Mostly deer. In Pennsylvania, it's permitted to pick up deer and wild turkeys.

DC: Have you ever fed that to guests?

DONALD BRUCKNER: I have on occasion.

DC: Have you told them?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Sure.

DC: In advance?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Sure.

DC: How'd they respond? Hold on. You said sure. Is it yes?

DONALD BRUCKNER: Yes. Yes, we have had guests to whom we've fed roadkill, and they're aware of it. Usually they're people who know us and who are aware of my practices are not are not grossed out. They understand the reasons in favour of it. They are willing to try.

DC: Look, it's fascinating and it's not the first time that I've heard about this, because I think even in places where it is not legal, this practice has happened.

DONALD BRUCKNER: I find that easy to believe. With your prior guest she was talking about sort of a social stigma attached. Sometimes collecting and consuming roadkill is seen as an activity, you know, worthy of only the lower classes of society. That's helplessly a very classist attitude and it's a shame that it's seen that way. But there is a barrier toward social acceptance. So I don't, you know, in my social circle, like you just don't go advertising oh, by the way, I saw a road kill on the way to work, I think I might pick it up on the way home.

DC: Yeah, that probably would be an awkward conversation.

DONALD BRUCKNER: Exactly.

DC: Well, Donald Bruckner, thanks very much for your thoughts on this.

DONALD BRUCKNER: My pleasure. Thank you for your interest.

DC: Not at all. Donald Bruckner is an associate professor of philosophy at Penn State University. And we reached him in New Kensington, Pennsylvania. In Canada, different provinces have different rules for picking up road kill. Some, including B.C., the Yukon and Ontario, do allow it if you have a permit, but you can only consume it yourself. You can't sell it. Other provinces, including Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador, do not allow it at all. And before anyone heads out to scour the highways and byways for dead animals. Lawrence Goodridge has a few words of caution. He's the Leung Family Professor of food safety at the University of Guelph. He is not totally sold on the idea of eating roadkill.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: From a food safety standpoint, it's certainly concerning for several reasons. First of all, when food animals are harvested for food that's done in a hygienic environment and in harvesting or slaughter facility. Obviously, if an animal dies on the road, that environment cannot be controlled. And so there's all kinds of considerations that now arise, including things like the road itself. What's on that road? There are other chemicals on the road. You know, vehicles drive by. There could be things like oil or gasoline or other fluids. There could be physical contaminants like pieces of metal or glass, again, from the vehicle that's embedded into that animal. Another concern is how the animal was killed. Again in a harvest process, the the animal is harvested in such a way that the hyde does not come into contact with the meat because on the hyde there could be all kinds of contaminants. You know, a great example of this is cattle, which are usually caked with manure and that manure is essentially the components of the gas intestinal tract and can have food borne pathogens like E. coli and salmonella. So during harvest of cattle, care is taken to make sure that the hyde doesn't come into contact with the meat. If an animal like a deer is hit by a car, there's, you know, there's no way that that can be assured in a similar manner that caused the gastrointestinal tract itself needs to be removed without it breaking, so that the contents of that, which again, would contain foodborne passes do not spill into the meat. How long was the animal dead before it was harvested? If it's a warm day, that certainly could lead to bacterial growth on the meat. While other wild animals may have visited the carcase and contaminated it and because of the time delay between whoever the sheriff deputies or whoever or the wildlife officials finding the carcase and notifying people, you still have the concern of the temperature abuse of that animal. And that's a concern because foodborne pathogens grow at room temperature. And that's why we have to store food in the fridge. One other thing we haven't discussed is the fact that the animal could be diseased. So again, during harvest in a meat plant, the carcases are always inspected to ensure that they don't have some kind of disease and lesions or tumours or things of that sort. And wild animals could be very diseased. Now, hunters may have experience to know that, but again, those who don't generally hunt may not have that experience. So I still think there's a risk even for those who and I do agree with you that most people probably won't do this, but for those who may perhaps be drawn to this because of their interest in reducing food waste and who may not have experience handling dead animals could still present a risk to themselves and their families.

DC: That was Lawrence Goodridge, the Leung Professor of food safety at the University of Guelph.

[Music]

DC: I'm sure you've all taken notes for your recipe book. I'm going to shift gears here now to talk about popping balloons, shooting confetti out of cannons and cutting the cake to check the colours inside. We are talking pink for girls, blue for boys. It's called a gender reveal party and more and more expectant parents are throwing them. But for those who started the craze, it's not so black and white.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: There's a lot of things you're going to learn about your child whenever they're born. You're going to learn what their preferences are as far as just the hobbies and talents and interests and what they can communicate and participate in in the world. And when you right out of the gate, they walk into a world that's been pink washed for them, they've walked into an expectation it really limiting what and who they can be. And that's this has to do with non binary people and transgender people. It really has to do with everyone. I have three daughters and I say the person that's been most impacted by a gender expectations really? Like really girl. We opened up a Christmas present one morning in Santa suit, brought her a Lego set and she was crying. And I said, Well, why are you crying? And she took well would Santa Claus bring me a boy toy? And I said, what are you talking about? It's Lego. And she's like, well, it's not pink.

DC: The backlash against gender reveal parties. That's coming up later this week. And coming up, after we pause for news, we're going to be looking at the death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, killed, according to the U.S. presidents, over the weekend. He apparently took his own life by detonating a suicide vest in a raid that seemed spectacular. More than 100 U.S. special forces in eight helicopters flying to Idlib province into a secretive and remote compound where they blew a hole in the wall, went inside. Now, what does it mean that the leader of ISIS is now dead? What does it mean for that organization, which will now look for a new leader? What could it mean for sleeper cells both in Syria and abroad? We're going to be looking at that discussion with Stephanie Carvin. We're also going to be talking about service and survival. Two seemingly simple rules that doctors tried to follow in Syria as the war raged around them. It's a new documentary that tells the story of one of those doctors and the work that she did deep underground in a makeshift hospital. As she's doing that work, you hear the bombs exploding around her. You see bombs being dropped from Russian warplanes. You see the anger. You see the toll as dozens and dozens of people, many of them children, are brought into that hospital. The filmmaker is joining us in about 15 minutes. I'm David Common, and you are listening to The Current.

[Music]

Founder and leader of ISIS is declared dead by the US

Guests: Stephanie Carvin

DC: Hello, I'm David Common and you're listening to The Current.

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VOICE: He died like a dog. He died like a coward. He was whimpering, screaming and crying. And frankly, I think it's something that should be brought out, so that his followers and all of these young kids that want to leave various countries, including the United States, they should see how he died. He didn't die a hero. He died a coward.

DC: That is. U.S. President Donald Trump describing what he says are the last moments of ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's life. President Trump made the announcement of al-Baghdadi's death on Sunday morning after U.S. special forces raided the ISIS leader's compound in northwestern Syria. He said al-Baghdadi detonated his suicide vest after running into a tunnel, blowing up himself and three of his children. Stephanie Carvin is an assistant professor of international relations at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs. That's at Carleton University. And also a former national security analyst. She is in Ottawa. Hello, Stephanie.

STEPHANIE CARVIN: Hello.

DC: So how significant is the death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi?

STEPHANIE CARVIN: It is significant because it will be a setback for the organization. Anytime you lose a leader in this way, you obviously go into a period of uncertainty. You know, plans kind of go awry. So obviously the group will be feeling this. But at the same time, I really think it's important to remember the fact that this is a group that actually dates back to the 1990s. It has gone through multiple leaders. It has been been declared dead a number of times. And as a result of that, you know, we can't be too complacent because it is a very it is very good at regenerating itself in new ways and new forms. So it is significant in the sense that it's causing disruption. But this by no means means the end of the Islamic State.

DC: Okay. Let's put pause for a moment on ISIS as an organization and just talk about al-Baghdadi, a guy known for especially for his brutality, for crucifixions, for force drownings, for demanding absolute loyalty for raping Yazidi girls and women. What kind of leader was he?

STEPHANIE CARVIN: He's somebody who definitely followed the philosophy of the individual who founded the group that is Abu Musab al Zarqawi. And your listeners may be familiar with him because he was such a notorious figure in the mid 2000s with regards to the al-Qaida in Iraq, which is one of the former names of the Islamic State. And he was known for his brutality as well. He was you know, he was a Sunni, which is one strand of Islam. He was radically anti-Shia. And so that's tone of the other streams. And had no problem killing not only all the groups he mentioned, but also many, many Muslims as well. They believe in establishing a so-called caliphate in the Middle East. And what kind of distinguish it from other groups at the time, notably al-Qaeda, was that they believed in having the fight really kind of in the Middle East, not so much bringing it to the West at that time. That was something that they shifted to later as they came under counter-terrorism pressure around 2014, 2015. So, yeah, he was someone who basically even al-Qaida accused them of being too violent. And when al-Qaeda says something like that, you know, you really are talking about an extremist movement. So he was someone who definitely followed, you know, what sometimes called Zarqawism this kind of belief that all followers who deviate from the Islamic State, particularly the Shia, were legitimate targets and in fact, quite frequently targeted for violence.

DC: As you mentioned, al-Qaeda President Trump called this death, this operation more significant and more of a big deal than Osama bin Laden's. What do you think?

STEPHANIE CARVIN: I think we need to take most of the things that were said in that press conference yesterday with a grain of salt. But basically, I think it's hard to make that direct comparison simply because they're sorry. Oh, my God. He was a very different kind of leader. He was someone who stepped away from the spotlight. I don't think he was as present in the American psyche or the Western psyche as bin Laden was. Bin Laden put himself at the front of 9/11. He planned it. He coordinated it. Baghdadi was happy to stand back, possibly for security reasons, but also because he wanted to meet the Islamic State about the movement itself. So it's probably not as significant. And also, in hindsight, we now know that killing off these leaders doesn't really kind of produce the counterterrorism results that I think a lot of us had initially hoped for, say, when Osama bin Laden was killed nearly a decade ago.

DC: Trump is also facing criticism for his decision earlier this month to pull U.S. troops out of northern Syria. So when I saw this, I sort of wondered about the timing of it all.

STEPHANIE CARVIN: Yeah, there has been some speculation. I mean, obviously, I'm not privy to these things, but I have seen the speculation in the media that, you know, this was an operation that was moved up simply because the U.S. is leaving that region. It was going to lose access to the intelligence sources that it had, as well as its footprint on the ground. So it had to move this operation ahead in advance. But, you know, there's so much here that that really does concern me. The Islamic State was able to regenerate itself because of the networks it had developed and the alliances it had built in the prison systems in the wake of the 2003 Iraq war. And what do we have in that region today? We have a series of of large prisons with extremists who are building networks. Once again, we see the U.S. retreating as it was in 2011. And we have actually even more uncertain environment. So the capacity for this group to rebuild is definitely there. Prisons have been central to this movement and its ability to really kind of not just regenerate, but to actually do symbolic attacks. In 2013, for example, Baghdadi started a campaign he called Breaking the Wall, which was effectively a series of jailbreaks where he got lots of followers out of prison. They all joined his ranks and that's what contributed to his rise. We have a policy in the west of not trying to end these prisons. So one of the things that greatly concerns me is the fact that these prisons are still there. Countries like Canada are refusing to repatriate their individuals. There's no system to bring anyone to justice or to kind of end this cycle. And so what concerns me is that, yes, OK, we've taken out Baghdadi, but we definitely have not taken out the infrastructure that could potentially lead to a resurgence of the Islamic State again.

DC: Is that, we've only got a minute here, but is that a certainty that there will be a resurgence at this point?

STEPHANIE CARVIN: Nothing's ever certain, particularly in this area of the Middle East. But there's already been a lot of talk of the Islamic State regaining a lot of its capacity. Maybe it won't have a caliphate in the way that it did in the, you know, say, between 2014 through two very recent times. But in the end, it definitely will almost certainly be a powerful and important insurgent group in that region and the cause of instability. And one of the things I worry about is someone who used to work in counterterrorism is that, you know, they will try to continue to inspire individuals in the West to conduct attacks for, you know, what it perceives as outrages or as some kind of revenge attack going forward. So this problem, unfortunately, is not going away anytime soon.

DC: Stephanie Carvin, thank you very much.

STEPHANIE CARVIN: Thank you.

DC: Stephanie Carvin is an assistant professor of international relations at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs at Carleton University. She is also, as she just mentioned, a former national security analyst who worked in counterterrorism.

In a bunker hospital in Syria, a director made it 'his mission' to document the plight of innocent civilians

Guests: Feras Fayyad

DC: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One and Sirius XM. I'm David Common. The sky over East Ghouta is a calm grey. In the distance you can hear even a bit of singing and then.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of bombings]

DC: That is the city erupting with blasts of grey smoke. The screech and crack of Russian warplanes. This is the long war in Syria. And now a new documentary takes you deep underground to a bunker under a ruined city where a dedicated group of doctors is trying to save as many lives as they can. Their hospital is known simply as The Cave, as is the film. The filmmaker is Feras Fayyad, whose previous film, Last Men In Aleppo, was nominated for an Academy Award. This film contains some difficult things to watch. Things we will talk about in this interview. Feras Fayyad now joins me from Los Angeles. Hello.

FERAS FAYYAD: Hello. Thank you for having me.

DC: Not at all. The film you have done is utterly remarkable. It takes us inside this battle, this multi-year horror, and it does it through the eyes of an extraordinary paediatrician, Dr. Amani Ballour. Tell us about her.

FERAS FAYYAD: Dr. Amani she's, during the shooting, this footage, we figure out that she is the first woman to manage to lead and hospital in the recorded history of Syria. She study in medical school in Damascus. She's coming from well-being family, but she left behind here everything and stayed next to the victims.

DC: And the conditions under which she is working. So just describe the movie is called The Cave. The film is called The Cave. And there is a reason for that.

FERAS FAYYAD: Yes, exactly. So the cave is a system of underground hospital around all of Syria. This is the system started from the medical society because the heavy bump from Russian war planes over all Syria and they try to protect themselves, predictable. The medical society predict that killed meant and the victims because there was direct a target from the Russians were playing through their hospitals. And we've been documented may myself and my my different teams that I work with them through last month in Aleppo and the CAVE and other films before us documented the direct targeting for that. And through this experience, we managed like to see how they managed to start to move all of this underground. And then we came with this story to bring it in front of the people.

DC: And the things that you are witnessing. I mean, you hear the warplanes, you hear the bombings, you hear this as they're there treating the wounded. Sometimes very grievously wounded, very often children and they're doing this while they have shortages of everything. There's not enough food for the medical staff, not enough medicine for the injured. At one point in the film, the hospital is completely overrun with victims of an apparent chemical attack.

FERAS FAYYAD: Exactly. And the most obviously the most victims of this war was innocent children's, where doctor, a man she have to deal everyday with with this with this victims and provide them like a kind of safe environment and save them from the kind of trauma and PTSD. Aside from helping them like to treat them like to to survive.

DC: Some critics have described your film as hard to watch. You don't like that.

FERAS FAYYAD: Exactly. Because when we talk about the films, generally, the film's missions, I think this is my perspective as an artist, the film should put the people in uncomfortable position to look to the terrible reality around us. This is film bringing human courage, powerful of the woman who tried to change the society, also saving lives. We here in this film trying to document and execute to comment for war crimes, and we need to share it with the people in wider audience to solidarity with us, empathize with us to make a change in the high political position to stop refugee crisis firsthand, as well help the socities.

DC: That is an urgent and an important thing that you're saying that you are trying to document a war crime as it happens.

FERAS FAYYAD: Exactly. This is my mission. My mission wasn't expect that I will put the Cave in the film. When I was making this film, we didn't know that if even that anyone will will help us like to make this film. We was trying to document everything around us and bring this is documentation in a way to share it. If we didn't manage like to make film, we was sure that we will keep this footage and share it with any high organization who work for the justice process to put the war criminal in the court,.

DC: International Court of Justice or world courts like that. At the same time, Russia's mission to the United Nations has called your last film, Last Man in Aleppo, they've called it propaganda and they've accused groups like the White Helmets, the medical workers, the emergency responders who you were documenting in that film of being essentially affiliated with terrorist groups. Have you faced the same kind of accusations with this most recent film, The Cave?

FERAS FAYYAD: Yes, unfortunately, when the Russian mission in the U.N., they released a statement on their official social media naming me and by my name that I'm a propaganda person and my film is a propaganda and that motivate a lot of hate and a lot of problem for my love life and damage even for my families and even for my friends. In this film, the Syrian Regime Film Institute, they released a statement through the Arab media saying this is another propaganda piece and saying what's being documented it's never happened. And this is like it's just from Western perspectiv.

DC: They're saying you lied.

FERAS FAYYAD: Yes.

DC: Can we talk about because there are so many scenes here that are remarkable for the worst reasons. The constant cavalcade of people being brought in on makeshift stretchers, out of cars, rushed to this underground hospital facility, taken inside many babies, many children, sometimes people covered in blood who have parts of rockets that have been embedded inside their bodies as they've hurled down from Russian warplanes. I am so struck by those things, but, of course, you made this film. Is there something that is there that haunts you the most?

FERAS FAYYAD: Yes, the most things that haunt me and this is what's make me like feel I have to keep go and document it, even if I didn't manage to put them in a film story to be sharing with people is the courage work of Dr. Amani and her female team. Dr. Amani managed to put this is hospital space for a lot of women. But also she fight for the women to work and engage and change our society and give her space also for little girls to speak out and to share their experience.

DC: But you also see people in your film who are pushing back against that, who are in the midst of this war. Go ahead.

FERAS FAYYAD: Exactly. That one of the big challenges in the society. Dr. Amani she was facing a patriarchal society that seeing the woman that not able to do high profile works and leading a hospital. And Dr. Amani, she was the first manager in the history of Syria to manage a hospital under her 140 medical worker. And for me, this is this story was important because even I didn't manage to make it in a film, I want to keep it like an historical record to show the people in the future that look where we were being. And look what we have to do to change for a democracy and for more equality, but also as evidence for the most horrific and barbaric war that we've been experiencing.

DC: Let's hear from Dr. Amani Ballour. There is a powerful scene between her and one of her colleagues. And here we have it in translation.

SOUNDCLIP

[Scene from The Cave]

VOICE 1: Can we really make a difference here? I sometimes wish I was hungry and didn't have anything to eat like the kids. I wish it was like that.

VOICE 2: Don't say that.

VOICE 1: Rather than having something to eat while others don't. I would rather be hungry and have nothing to eat, instead of feeling horrible while eating when others have nothing.

VOICE 2: At least you're helping people around you.

VOICE 1: But how much can I really help them?

DC: That is a scene from the new documentary, The Cave. It is translated by our producers here at CBC. Feras Fayyad what does that conversation say to us and to you about the kind of person Dr. Amani Ballour is?

FERAS FAYYAD: Dr. Amani Ballour show you like that a person who is even with all the courage and help that provide for her society even question her comfortable position that she feels that she can't do that. And this is what's most important things I feel it that any documentary should provide, not just show us that we have to feel good. But also this film is a people who criticise themselves even in the most horrific situation and even the most work that they have to do. This is what make me I want to tell this story even after being been in big damage in because last minute when they convene from Russians, I feel this is inspire me. And I have to tell the story because the voice of Dr. Amanda and her colleagues matter. It's can a change in bigger perspective and get them engage more people to understand how much it's important to question ourself about our comfortable life and sometimes appreciate how much we are living in a good system around us. And this is what every single art piece should put us in this position.

DC: Can we then understand or is it through this film that we can understand the toll that this takes on people like Dr. Amani Ballour and the many people she is working with to care for the so many more injured and wounded and sick?

FERAS FAYYAD: Yeah, I think through this his film will understand the most horrific and barbaric war as well and understand what does mean. This is refugee crisis as well. Will understand closely in a human perspective and the human connection. We will identify who this is, people who was running from their country, what there is and behind that.

DC: This is your country, too. What is like for you watching your home country devastated by years and years of war?

FERAS FAYYAD: You know, when I as a film maker, I never think that once they will documented the war in my country. I never expect that. But I feel like I have to engage more and documented what's happening without danger for a business side of the filmmaking. It's for me, it's like this is a documentation for history to not let the people in power and the people who have all the resources to write the history. It's hard to watch, but look to this documentary how much have a human perspective. It's easy to see and watch because it's make you feel how much beautiful to be human, how much beautiful to have empathize instead of like have a little empathy and without any feeling to the the people around you.

DC: We see The Cave, the film through largely the eyes of Dr. Armani Ballour, but of course, the eyes looking up at her are these patients. I wonder if of all of those who came through. Is there one that we see in the film? Who most, you were most struck by her, who most encapsulates the situation at that moment.

FERAS FAYYAD: There is many, many cases we've been documented in that cases. Many of this is little girls that Dr. Amani talk to them. They never have like a chance to talk. They never have the chance to speak out. There is a little moment. It's very important moment where Dr. Amani received a little girl with her brother. And Dr. Amani, ask her what's happened with you and then have a little brother take advantage to talk and Dr. Amani told him, let your sister talk. And that little girl, she's shocked that the first time she managed to talk and after this is seen the girl didn't stop to talk. Just show you like what Doctor Amani managed to do. Alongside of helping saving lives from the daily bomb from the Syrian regime and Russians warplanes. This woman she coming from inside the society she have this clever and knowledge and educations to manage to share it with the most selfless way. She feel that she can provide them a place to speak and to engage and to change the situation around her.

DC: Dr. Amani Ballour was ultimately forced to leave Syria. Can you talk about where she is now?

FERAS FAYYAD: After Dr. Amani was forced to leave Ghouta, she came to northern Syria where in Idlib, which is under bombed from the Russian, was under heavy bomb from Russian warplanes and the Syrian regime warplane. And she start to continue working in underground hospitals. I was there with the team to document that, and we wasn't in that moment. We have a lot of footage. I have to take care about this is footage and and put them like kind of more in leave on more important than in life. And smuggle them outside of Turkey to Denmark to managed to make this documentary, because we have we couldn't manage to do upload all this footage through Internet. And this is the way how we was trying to make this documentation. So Dr. Amani she leaved to Turkey and we kept following her. And she's now in a city closer to the Syrian Turkish border inside Turkey. She get married with a very nice person. And they are living in small apartment. They are not safe, but they are like living with each other and try to help each other in this way.

DC: Is she still practicing medicine?

FERAS FAYYAD: Unfortunately, in Turkey they are not allowed to practice medicine and she feel like depressed after she was very active and helping her society. She was now stuck in an institution not able to do anything. And I try to bring in this, a story that maybe we have to look again for. This is people who is turned to be refugees after being very active to helping this society. Dr. Amani, she said in her last conversation, you know, I don't want to leave. I just want to stay in the home and I fight a long time to stay in this home. That's all what she want. And that's all what the people want. And this is me as a Syrian also. That's what I want. I want to just stay in my home. I wasn't have any intention to leave and be turned to be a refugee. When you've seen your country every day bomb in front of you and you and can't do anything. You feel all the time in survival, guilty, you have to do something in that. And I think that we want to do me and Dr. Amani and the team that I documented in my films and the team who held me to docoument the film, the cinematographer, we want to bring this film to show them that we need your help. We need your empathy. We need your pressure on your politician. We need you to write a letter for your political representative an action for stopping this ongoing war and an action for stopping the Russian war planes bombing the hospitals and attacking the freedom of expression in Syria.

DC: Feras Fayyad, thank you very much for speaking to us. I know making this film has cost you in many ways and the war has, as you said, cost your family in some cases their lives. Thank you for speaking with us today.

FERAS FAYYAD: Thank you.

DC: Feras Fayyad is a Syrian filmmaker. His documentary, The Cave opens in Toronto and Vancouver on Friday. Now, that is our program for today. We've covered a lot of ground and there's one song that was a bit of a running theme through much of our program today. You probably didn't even know it. It is baby shark, a timeless tune that's resonating around the world.

SOUNDCLIP

Group in Lebanon singing Baby Shark.

DC: Well, we were talking about protests in Lebanon earlier. It turns out Baby Shark has turned into a bit of an anthem there ever since a group of protesters soothed an upset baby stuck in a car in the crowds by singing to him.

SOUNDCLIP

[Baby Shark continued]

DC: The Washington Nationals baseball team, a.k.a. the Montreal Expos of yore, also belted out the tune at their stadium. Baby shark has become a bit of a thing there.

SOUNDCLIP

[Baby Shark played at Washington Nationals game]

DC: It all started when outfielder Gerardo Parra started using it as his walk-up song in honour of his two-year-old daughter. It caught on and now fans do a synchronized shark chop when he comes to the plate. Fans even come to the games in shark costumes. But of course, who can forget the original? Not you today. I guarantee you that because it's stuck in your head just like it's stuck in mine. You are welcome. I'm David Common. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Thanks so much for listening to The Current.

[Baby Shark song]

Oct. 28, 2019 episode transcript

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